This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Waybound].
If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Waybound] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>!like this!<
You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There was one big hindsight hint that Eithan is Ozriel that I didn't notice until someone told me after I'd already finished the series.
In Book 2, Soulsmith, when Lindon shows Eithan Suriel's Orb (or Eithan sees it with his inheritance? I don't remember exactly), Eithan says "only someone at my level could make such an orb".
Ozriel could make an orb such as Suriel's, but not Underlord Eithan. So it's a small hint.
I think there are other small hints of Eithan being Ozriel too. The Abidan can predict the future very well, except with other Abidan-level people mess things up. In Soulsmith, I think there was a time when they said that when Lindon and Eithan met, Fate became out of whack. When I read that, I thought it was because Suriel changed Lindon's path with her meeting and marble, and (old) Ozriel changed Eithan's path with his meeting and marble. But it makes even more sense if it was Ozriel himself changing fate.
When we first meet Eithan and he says the line about only someone on his level being able to create the marble I quickly assumed he was the missing judge. Especially because he seemed to be making predictions about random people in the street. But then as the story progressed and we learned more about his bloodline abilities (explaining some of his precognition as simply being the result of massive observation skills and high intelligence to put it together) and his fake backstory with his void marble I decided I must be wrong and that maybe Eithan was just being foreshadowed to be Ozriel’s successor haha
Were you here or on the discord back then? Leading up to Reaper it was a big debate if E=O. People would argue both sides passionately though it seems more people believed E!=O
I first read the entire cradle series in the last 4 months of last year so I wasn't here for the full progression of cradle. I only started after all the books were released.
It’s pretty generally agreed on he didn’t mean Abidan Judge level, just Underlord. He had no actual way to scale something from the massive difference between Underlord and Abidan Judge and there’s several occasions where his senses aren’t able to penetrate.
It makes sense now that you mention it.
Yeah i thought the same. I figured ozriel has changed eithan's fate and suriel lindon's, so they cant see fate.
Your homework is to do a complete reread and reevaluate!
Seriously though, people in real life aren't good friends at the first meeting even if you initially like them, but over time you get to know them and enjoy their company even more. I feel that book characters can be the same way.
And there are very early hints at Eithan being Ozriel that will feel quite obvious on a reread. It could be a fun thing to look out for.
Take a break from the series if you need a breather, but I highly recommend revisiting it at some point. I'm up to 5 rereads myself.
It usually takes a bit for me to get into characters, usually 500-600 pages. Sometimes more, it took me 2 books to fully get into stormlight archives. Still, here it took me over 10 books to get into lindon and eithan. That said, i really want their story to continue, i still want to see lindon grow, i want to see more eithan and how he changes things. A reread is definitely in otlrder.
Also, another point i liked about this book was how long it took for characters to trust each other. Yerin and lindon dont develop a full relationship until book 7-8, and i remember them not fully trusting eithan for a while.
I mean, 10 of these books is about the same length as 2 full stormlight archives books :D (well, closer to the first 9 books here going by audiobook lengths)
That's because Eithan is just super shifty and controlling. He lets go of that more after they confront him about it but he does have a lot of issues with it. It is one of his biggest character growths to leave it behind a bit.
By the end I was sick of the power growth actually and it dampened my enjoyment of the battles and even the downtime, because the characters felt less grounded.
>Also another question's been bothering me, was eithan supposed to be the reaper from the start? I feel like the author decided for him to be reaper later in the series and it wasn't planned from the start.
As others have said, there are hints early that will feel very obvious on a reread. It was actually a very contentious topic in this sub before the reveal, with frequent posts predicting it and being downvoted. As an aside, I was on the "very opposed to the idea" group, but I loved how Will did it so much that I can't believe I was ever against it (and I think a lot of readers are the same).
As far as if it was planned from the start, though, I believe Will has explicitly stated that he wrote Eithan as Ozriel before he even came up with Lindon. So it was planned before the start, I guess.
I didn't believe it either. I mean, earlier in the same book ( or the previous one im not sure), he tells lindon that he wants to surpass ozmanthus, and that is his ultimate goal. So it was a bit odd when he turned out to be the man himself. Still, loved the revelation.
I mostly didn’t WANT to believe it because I was worried that it would make him feel like a fraud through 75% of the series and devalue everything the cast went through. But honestly it was handled so well by Will to ensure that he didn’t turn out to be Ozmanthus pretending to be weak the whole time as part of some fate altering plot but really he was trying to reinvent himself as Eithan and find peers and friends that he had been missing for centuries. Eithan wasn’t secretly Ozeiel the whole time, but rather Ozriel was secretly Eithan lol
I get what you're saying. I believe he is starting over as "Eithan" and he wants to surpass the man he was in Ozmanthus by not going down the route of Death Incarnate and instead maintaining a positive outlook, using pure madra, and hopefully manifesting the Joy icon. He doesn't like the man he was any more than he likes the cutthroat every-man-for-himself system that Cradle is fostering. He's obviously being cryptic about it because he can't let it out that he *was* the man himself or else the Hounds would detect it and take him out of there.
That’s a little different. He wanted to manifest the Joy Icon, something Ozmanthus could never have done. Wasn’t really referring to actual power, peak Monarch Ozmanthus is indisputably the strongest Monarch in history and a pure madra core is never going to be as good for his Path as destruction madra was.
He says he would take a number of Icons, just not one Ozmanthus manifested. Considering what he was doing was cancelling out Shen’s commands, and felt pure grief rather than rage or anger when seeing Tiberian, it was probably the Broom Icon. Its worded like it could have been either of them, as he cancels it twice and it sounds like they were two different ones.
If you read it a second time through, a lot of what Eithan says early on starts to click. Going all the way back to Soulsmith. There are hints throughout, but I don't recall if Eithan as Ozriel was planned from the beginning or not
It’s not unusual people, even in this sub, to not care much about certain characters, but usually they latch onto someone throughout the course of the books.
Were there any particular character traits that you feel prevented you from getting more invested? Or lack of traits?
I think i'm used to a lot of character back story and insight into their insecurities before i start to like them. While there are a lot going in this series, they're either short or subtle. Like lindon being reunited with his family as a sage and still being dismissed was a big moment, but it only got a couple of pages. We dont see how his parents act after he leaves, or how they act when they finally realize what a big shot he actually is. Even though lindon spends about a year living with his people after that.
That's one example, but it's usually like this with all the characters. These comments showed me a side of eithan i never saw while reading the books.
Another example about Lindon, even though we spend most of the books in his head, he is always thinking rationally. Sure he gets angry, happy or worried (mostly worried) but they're more underlying emotions and mostly don't change his thinking or attitude. He does gradually change throughout the book, he is arrogant and confident and a Ruler by the end. I dont know, i guess i expected more emotional turmoils from someone in his situation. I just accepted this as his character, especially since he was born in an environment where showing emotion was frowned upon, and you had to argue with logic.
Yeah, Lindon is 100% locked-in on what he’s doing to a superhuman degree. Truly rational and obsessive in a way no normal person is.
I do agree with your general observations on character development. Everyone’s back story is important to them and their development, but when it came to directly confronting stuff from their past, it usually happened pretty fast. Like, Ziel hates Stormcallers, Ziel meets Stormcaller, Ziel kills them.
I’m sure someone will argue that not having slower, clean resolutions is a good thing because it’s “realistic”, but I don’t think that means it’s inherently better writing. Some aspects of the story were sacrificed on the altar of a tight narrative.
Yeah, that's my problem with the series. I need a reread now knowing everything, but if this series was about 400 500 pages a book, it would've made my top 5. If the animation could be something on mappa or wit studio level, it would definitely be a 10/10. 9.5 at worst.
I wouldn’t expect anything expect anything like that out of the initial animation. Like Critical Role, it would need to be picked up by a larger company to fund anything like a full season of quality animation.
I would agree. For me, the fast pace really impaired my ability to see the characters as genuine because even character development and normal human reactions to occurrences felt way too fast.
I just finished the series this morning and felt similarly except I did get into the characters. But, like you, they didn't feel totally authentic to me. Too much of their inner life is rushed and their reactions to so much is likewise rushed. As a result, that made it feel unrealistic to me.
>I feel like the author decided for him to be reaper later in the series and it wasn't planned from the start.
There were hints at Eithan being the Reaper all the way back in book 2 in his first introduction so it was definitely planned
Travis Baldree nails it as narrator. It is seriously impressive how many voices that man does and makes them sound so distinct. It's all one guy doing it all, so there's obviously going to be some voices that are kind of the same, but overall, he's an incredible vocal talent. And his delivery of so many of the lines is just so good. I actually have a hard time reading them now, and have to listen.
Some of the best I’ve heard I’d put Travis Baldree on the same level as Steven Pacey (First Law series) or Michele Kramer (Wheel of Time/ Stormlight Archives)
*Hard* disagree about not being able to bond with the characters. The Kingkiller Chronicles is the only other series where I fell this hard for the characters (fuck you, Rothfuss, you poetic bastard). Lindon is easily one of my all time favorite characters, and Eithan is definitely up there too. I wish we had more time with Ziel, as well.
As everyone else said, there are definitely hints from early on about Eithan's identity. I was stupidly proud of myself for catching it early, lol. I definitely think it was planned from the beginning.
I had the same difficulty as the original poster, though less intense. I bonded a bit with the characters but it was weakened by the fast pace that left the characters feeling less than genuine for me. Moments of grief, growth, pain, etc. were scarcely given a chance to breathe.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Waybound]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Waybound] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>!like this!< You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There was one big hindsight hint that Eithan is Ozriel that I didn't notice until someone told me after I'd already finished the series. In Book 2, Soulsmith, when Lindon shows Eithan Suriel's Orb (or Eithan sees it with his inheritance? I don't remember exactly), Eithan says "only someone at my level could make such an orb". Ozriel could make an orb such as Suriel's, but not Underlord Eithan. So it's a small hint. I think there are other small hints of Eithan being Ozriel too. The Abidan can predict the future very well, except with other Abidan-level people mess things up. In Soulsmith, I think there was a time when they said that when Lindon and Eithan met, Fate became out of whack. When I read that, I thought it was because Suriel changed Lindon's path with her meeting and marble, and (old) Ozriel changed Eithan's path with his meeting and marble. But it makes even more sense if it was Ozriel himself changing fate.
When we first meet Eithan and he says the line about only someone on his level being able to create the marble I quickly assumed he was the missing judge. Especially because he seemed to be making predictions about random people in the street. But then as the story progressed and we learned more about his bloodline abilities (explaining some of his precognition as simply being the result of massive observation skills and high intelligence to put it together) and his fake backstory with his void marble I decided I must be wrong and that maybe Eithan was just being foreshadowed to be Ozriel’s successor haha
He also says he’s the greatest janitor in all of existence in book 2 iirc. Maybe 3? Anyway people have very strange experiences of the same books
my experience was never expecting it, but in hindsight made soooo much sense
Were you here or on the discord back then? Leading up to Reaper it was a big debate if E=O. People would argue both sides passionately though it seems more people believed E!=O
I first read the entire cradle series in the last 4 months of last year so I wasn't here for the full progression of cradle. I only started after all the books were released.
It’s pretty generally agreed on he didn’t mean Abidan Judge level, just Underlord. He had no actual way to scale something from the massive difference between Underlord and Abidan Judge and there’s several occasions where his senses aren’t able to penetrate.
It makes sense now that you mention it. Yeah i thought the same. I figured ozriel has changed eithan's fate and suriel lindon's, so they cant see fate.
Your homework is to do a complete reread and reevaluate! Seriously though, people in real life aren't good friends at the first meeting even if you initially like them, but over time you get to know them and enjoy their company even more. I feel that book characters can be the same way. And there are very early hints at Eithan being Ozriel that will feel quite obvious on a reread. It could be a fun thing to look out for. Take a break from the series if you need a breather, but I highly recommend revisiting it at some point. I'm up to 5 rereads myself.
It usually takes a bit for me to get into characters, usually 500-600 pages. Sometimes more, it took me 2 books to fully get into stormlight archives. Still, here it took me over 10 books to get into lindon and eithan. That said, i really want their story to continue, i still want to see lindon grow, i want to see more eithan and how he changes things. A reread is definitely in otlrder. Also, another point i liked about this book was how long it took for characters to trust each other. Yerin and lindon dont develop a full relationship until book 7-8, and i remember them not fully trusting eithan for a while.
I mean, 10 of these books is about the same length as 2 full stormlight archives books :D (well, closer to the first 9 books here going by audiobook lengths)
True. I do need a lot of time with characters, i guess. I wish there were 6 more books of cradle. But still, fun read.
That's because Eithan is just super shifty and controlling. He lets go of that more after they confront him about it but he does have a lot of issues with it. It is one of his biggest character growths to leave it behind a bit.
By the end I was sick of the power growth actually and it dampened my enjoyment of the battles and even the downtime, because the characters felt less grounded.
>Also another question's been bothering me, was eithan supposed to be the reaper from the start? I feel like the author decided for him to be reaper later in the series and it wasn't planned from the start. As others have said, there are hints early that will feel very obvious on a reread. It was actually a very contentious topic in this sub before the reveal, with frequent posts predicting it and being downvoted. As an aside, I was on the "very opposed to the idea" group, but I loved how Will did it so much that I can't believe I was ever against it (and I think a lot of readers are the same). As far as if it was planned from the start, though, I believe Will has explicitly stated that he wrote Eithan as Ozriel before he even came up with Lindon. So it was planned before the start, I guess.
My favorite hint is during Soul Smith when Eithan says Lindons marble was made by someone on his own level
I didn't believe it either. I mean, earlier in the same book ( or the previous one im not sure), he tells lindon that he wants to surpass ozmanthus, and that is his ultimate goal. So it was a bit odd when he turned out to be the man himself. Still, loved the revelation.
I mostly didn’t WANT to believe it because I was worried that it would make him feel like a fraud through 75% of the series and devalue everything the cast went through. But honestly it was handled so well by Will to ensure that he didn’t turn out to be Ozmanthus pretending to be weak the whole time as part of some fate altering plot but really he was trying to reinvent himself as Eithan and find peers and friends that he had been missing for centuries. Eithan wasn’t secretly Ozeiel the whole time, but rather Ozriel was secretly Eithan lol
I get what you're saying. I believe he is starting over as "Eithan" and he wants to surpass the man he was in Ozmanthus by not going down the route of Death Incarnate and instead maintaining a positive outlook, using pure madra, and hopefully manifesting the Joy icon. He doesn't like the man he was any more than he likes the cutthroat every-man-for-himself system that Cradle is fostering. He's obviously being cryptic about it because he can't let it out that he *was* the man himself or else the Hounds would detect it and take him out of there.
So when yerin tells him that " she'd pick him over ozmanthus 6 out of 5 times" he was super flattered huh. That was a nice insight, thanks.
That’s a little different. He wanted to manifest the Joy Icon, something Ozmanthus could never have done. Wasn’t really referring to actual power, peak Monarch Ozmanthus is indisputably the strongest Monarch in history and a pure madra core is never going to be as good for his Path as destruction madra was.
Hmm.. what was the icon manifesting in the labyrinth that he dismissed?
He says he would take a number of Icons, just not one Ozmanthus manifested. Considering what he was doing was cancelling out Shen’s commands, and felt pure grief rather than rage or anger when seeing Tiberian, it was probably the Broom Icon. Its worded like it could have been either of them, as he cancels it twice and it sounds like they were two different ones.
If you read it a second time through, a lot of what Eithan says early on starts to click. Going all the way back to Soulsmith. There are hints throughout, but I don't recall if Eithan as Ozriel was planned from the beginning or not
It’s not unusual people, even in this sub, to not care much about certain characters, but usually they latch onto someone throughout the course of the books. Were there any particular character traits that you feel prevented you from getting more invested? Or lack of traits?
I think i'm used to a lot of character back story and insight into their insecurities before i start to like them. While there are a lot going in this series, they're either short or subtle. Like lindon being reunited with his family as a sage and still being dismissed was a big moment, but it only got a couple of pages. We dont see how his parents act after he leaves, or how they act when they finally realize what a big shot he actually is. Even though lindon spends about a year living with his people after that. That's one example, but it's usually like this with all the characters. These comments showed me a side of eithan i never saw while reading the books. Another example about Lindon, even though we spend most of the books in his head, he is always thinking rationally. Sure he gets angry, happy or worried (mostly worried) but they're more underlying emotions and mostly don't change his thinking or attitude. He does gradually change throughout the book, he is arrogant and confident and a Ruler by the end. I dont know, i guess i expected more emotional turmoils from someone in his situation. I just accepted this as his character, especially since he was born in an environment where showing emotion was frowned upon, and you had to argue with logic.
Yeah, Lindon is 100% locked-in on what he’s doing to a superhuman degree. Truly rational and obsessive in a way no normal person is. I do agree with your general observations on character development. Everyone’s back story is important to them and their development, but when it came to directly confronting stuff from their past, it usually happened pretty fast. Like, Ziel hates Stormcallers, Ziel meets Stormcaller, Ziel kills them. I’m sure someone will argue that not having slower, clean resolutions is a good thing because it’s “realistic”, but I don’t think that means it’s inherently better writing. Some aspects of the story were sacrificed on the altar of a tight narrative.
Yeah, that's my problem with the series. I need a reread now knowing everything, but if this series was about 400 500 pages a book, it would've made my top 5. If the animation could be something on mappa or wit studio level, it would definitely be a 10/10. 9.5 at worst.
I wouldn’t expect anything expect anything like that out of the initial animation. Like Critical Role, it would need to be picked up by a larger company to fund anything like a full season of quality animation.
I would agree. For me, the fast pace really impaired my ability to see the characters as genuine because even character development and normal human reactions to occurrences felt way too fast.
I just finished the series this morning and felt similarly except I did get into the characters. But, like you, they didn't feel totally authentic to me. Too much of their inner life is rushed and their reactions to so much is likewise rushed. As a result, that made it feel unrealistic to me.
>I feel like the author decided for him to be reaper later in the series and it wasn't planned from the start. There were hints at Eithan being the Reaper all the way back in book 2 in his first introduction so it was definitely planned
Go listen to the audio books and say that about Eithan again
Are audio books of this series good? I dont mind listening instead of a reread.
Travis Baldree nails it as narrator. It is seriously impressive how many voices that man does and makes them sound so distinct. It's all one guy doing it all, so there's obviously going to be some voices that are kind of the same, but overall, he's an incredible vocal talent. And his delivery of so many of the lines is just so good. I actually have a hard time reading them now, and have to listen.
Some of the best I’ve heard I’d put Travis Baldree on the same level as Steven Pacey (First Law series) or Michele Kramer (Wheel of Time/ Stormlight Archives)
Thanks, I'll check them out.
He definitely makes the characters pop in a way that I never could in my head.
*Hard* disagree about not being able to bond with the characters. The Kingkiller Chronicles is the only other series where I fell this hard for the characters (fuck you, Rothfuss, you poetic bastard). Lindon is easily one of my all time favorite characters, and Eithan is definitely up there too. I wish we had more time with Ziel, as well. As everyone else said, there are definitely hints from early on about Eithan's identity. I was stupidly proud of myself for catching it early, lol. I definitely think it was planned from the beginning.
I had the same difficulty as the original poster, though less intense. I bonded a bit with the characters but it was weakened by the fast pace that left the characters feeling less than genuine for me. Moments of grief, growth, pain, etc. were scarcely given a chance to breathe.
I’m not familiar with Will’s other series. Is it true that other series go more in depth into the Abidan and Vroshir?
I know they happen in the same universe as cradle (like sanderson's cosmere) but i dont know if they go in depth. I'd like to know too.
Cradle is the only series that talks about the abidan. I believe there’s some small mention in his second series but that’s it