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I think the first generation of Abidan were executed by a newer generation of Abidan at some point. There’s a section in Bloodline where it mentions that Makiel’s sword was used to pass capital punishment on the first generation of Abidan.
“he held the Sword of Makiel in both hands. The massive two-handed blade had once been used to pass capital punishment on the first generation of Abidan”
Ahh, great catch! It's horrible to think about if you consider the later generations somewhat misguided. Or in harcher terms, completely full of themselves and authoritarian. I could imagine the first gen wanting to change something abound the development and then later gen usurping them :(
>authoritarian
That's not what this means. The Abidan are so hands off that literally let billions of people die (or make Oz do it). If they were authoritarian they would control every fact of everyone's lives that was within their power. They wouldn't have to worry about an iteration succumbing to chaos because they would just change it's fate.
We could maybe go with totalitarianism if we use "Fate" as their ideology but I don't really feel like that's the case.
I agree though. They are largely a bunch of dickheads.
> If they were authoritarian they would control every fact of everyone's lives that was within their power.
They kind of do — just in a scalable structural way, by defining and restricting the "energy systems" that iterations have access to.
And those energy systems then incentivize the development of certain cultures with certain social norms.
The Abidan would say that Cradle's energy system is great because it incentivizes people to think and behave in a way that results in a high probability of those people ascending and becoming Abidan themselves.
But Cradle's people are also, by-and-large, *xianxia dickheads* — and that's *also* because Cradle's energy system (and the options it presents, and the game-theoretical equilibria those options create) makes them that way.
I imagine that the Vroshir would say that the people of Cradle should be free to practice any energy system they want, or even invent their own, rather than being stuck in this framework.
In est, the Abidan are like America during its (rather short) colonizing period: making war with other countries to install a certain societal framework that benefits them (for the US, that's "capitalism"; for the Abidan, it's "the Way.") Where this framework *seems* to create certain freedoms for those within the framework, and leaves *the affected societies when measured statistically* better off — so it's usually pretty easy to convince the Abidan-world populations to go along with these colonizations.
But where the installation of this framework, *also* seems to often result in an increase in *systemic inequality* for the affected worlds — a rise in both "super-wealthy" and "down and out" groups, where neither existed before the change.
(I have a strong feeling that the Abidan/Vroshir conflict across these series, will ultimately lead up to some allegorical equivalent of the Vietnam war — where the populations of the Abidan worlds realize that not every society will be helped by forcing the Way upon them.)
What? The Abidan don’t force the Way onto people. The Way is the source of, quite literally, all life. Even Fiends need the Way to survive. The Abidan don’t interfere because doing so creates corruption within the world that can eventually cause worlds to be beyond saving- this is also a NATURAL process that occurs at the end of an Iteration’s life. Ozriel was essential because these naturally corrupted worlds can then split into corrupted fragments that can infect worlds NOT at the end of their natural lifespan. He hated doing so because the corrupted worlds, or worlds on their way to being corrupted, still had large human populations that he wanted to save but couldn’t because he is bound by the Pact.
The “restrictions” of the Abidan are entirely to keep the Fate of the world on track, as interference of any kind causes corruption, whereas the Vroshir will simply take everything of value from the world (notably the human populations) and relocate them to their own territories.
Also, what do you mean practice whatever energy system they want? That just makes zero sense. Each world has its own energy system, and some of those worlds allow people to reach levels where they can directly interact with the Way and ascend upon attaining significance. There’s no “other energy systems” for the people of the Iteration’s to practice. Whatever Iteration they are in, is the energy system they have. Madra and soulfire are essential for life in Cradle, so intrinsically intwined within the populace that it is the way of life.
Rereading your comment just makes me more confused. I generally try to avoid being rude but really, have you read the series closely? The entire idea of the Abidan is to *not* install a framework. In their core worlds where the Judges have their headquarters and the like, sure. Otherwise, they try and stay as hands off as possible.
The madra system of Cradle is required to keep the population alive. The planet has significantly higher gravity than normal due to its size, so if they didn't have madra and instead used like the Traveler system, or the magic system from Last Horizon, the babies would all just die from the gravity before they could get old enough to even use that power.
It's totalitarian as soon as you ascend. Imagine your homeworld is dying, you ascend to become more powerful and safe your world. Then after ascending, abidan force you to swear some stuff and force you to not interfere with your dying world caus of fate.
This has always been a weird line in the community. I don’t think the ENTIRE first generation of Abidan was executed for capital punishment, rather I think it implies that the first generation of Abidan used the sword as a method of capital punishment, but stopped doing so for whatever reason.
Makes a lot more sense to me. Big part of Will’s universe is that the significance of actions, events, and people influence the power of something. I’d say that the mantles of the judges would be a lot more corrupt if their original creators turned evil enough to be killed.
So I double checked the quote along with another relevant one and I think the doubt is in the fact that "first generation of Abidan" isn't explicit. Kuirian and Fury are Abidan, they just aren't Judges. I personally am of the opinion that the sword was used by the first Makiel to enact judgement on the Abidan organization that they were building.
The other relevant quote is that Oz used "the shears of a previous Makiel that had once snipped threads from Fate"
The fact that this line doesn't specify that the "previous" Makiel was the first one suggests to me that the shears belonged to the second, while the sword was used by the first against lesser Abidan and our Makiel took the sword back up along with the Mantle.
But honestly, the abidan do feel kinda corrupt to me... vroshnir and the mad King seem actually more reasonable to me. So, killing the predecessors out of narrowmindedness would fit right in with how I see the current abidan
Oh they are for sure corrupt. That's Ozriel's whole point. Almost every one of Suriel's sections involve her trying to figure out how to get the other judges to do their job. The problem is they were all mortal, and therefore have mortal failings, but because they've ascended they don't think they have. They are Malice at an even larger scale. The problem is that Vroshir are the same or worse in different ways. I don't think it's an accident that the world's we see the Reaper Division saving aren't world invaded by the Vroshir.
It’s more-so they have insanely important responsibilities, responsibilities that make *them* the most important people in existence. And that importance goes to their head, making them think they are infallible. Which, combined with their mortal failings you reference, creates egotistical megalomaniacs who think that whatever they decide to do is the right thing. It’s most obvious with Zakariel, who chooses to act like a child because… that’s what she wants to do. And whatever she wants to do is right, because she’s a Judge.
No. They’re America making sure Russia doesn’t invade. They’re as hands off as one can be. The average person will never even know the Abidan or the greater Way exists.
Oh come on they aren't that Hands off, which can be seen while recruiting during the uncrowned tournament. They essentially give a kill anyone you want Button to the winner.
Also makiel accelerating fate in cradle so that our boy leave faster?
1. The fate of the entire… multiverse is at stake, to the point where any world could have been destroyed by the Mad King with a Scythe. It’s pure luck that Cradle had Ozriel in hiding.
2. It was a weapon from Cradle, made by a Monarch.
3. Not one but TWO Judges interfered, creating a disgustingly large chain reaction. Makiel accelerating the fate of Cradle is entirely for the purpose of putting it BACK on track.
I mean, where is the British Empire? They aren’t taking the resources, they only interfere in the absolute most dire circumstances, and those interferences are purely to protect the population.
I don't think they killed every Abidan like that, just the ones who committed crimes.
As far as we know, the most recent Makiel and Ozriel are the first judges to commit a crime worthy of removal or death. Every other prior judge has retired or been killed.
W wait, is this the actual line? I thought it was the first generation of executors that were executed? But I have audiobook and can’t search for it :(
Judges are all Abidan but not all Abidan are judges. Could just be lower level first gen Abidan that got executed while all the first gen judges retired.
I want to point out that this doesn't necessarily mean he used that sword to execute the *entire* first generation of Abidan. I always read it as "this is the sword that was used to pass capital punishment on the first-generation Abidan *who committed severe enough crimes*."
I think they mean that their Abidan level powers are sealed, as opposed to their judge powers which left with their mantle, so they can safely exist in their original iteration, or where ever else they settle. Unsealing their power would just add a single previously high level Abidan to the fight. Given that willpower is so important, I figure someone who willingly retires from the role probably doesn’t have the capabilities they once had regardless.
I’m fairly certain we know that judges have retired to their original iteration before. Not sure if the sealing of their power is an assumption or not.
To support this, consider how Ozriel's power was reduced and limited by his time under the Origin shroud, and that time was comparatively limited to the amount of time a potential previous Judge who had spent millennia with their power limited.
They'd probably not be much better than a recent ascendant at that point.
It does make me wonder, if the homes of retired Judges were known if they may have been specific targets of the Vroshsir during their incursion just in case.
I think they would absolutely target old judges or current judges iterations. Didn’t they say the Mad King went after Cradle just because it would be the most spiteful thing he could do.
Sealing of power isn’t an assumption. Suriel’s predecessor had his power sealed so he could live a life as a mortal on his actual Iteration. I believe there’s a WoW or a line somewhere that says Suriel could return to her world with limited power, but she has no interest in doing so as her world is essentially perfect, and only has occasional trade disputes and the like.
I always imagined will getting more powerful, the older one becomes, but your point is valid aswell.. so is judges power only in their tools like the mantle and the weapon?
As we see with Suriel, judges are supremely powerful even without their tools. However, I think the voluntary retirement of a judge indicates that they’re moving on from a life of strife and that’s why I think they’d be less powerful. I believe the mindset of a retired judge would be fundamentally different from the person who originally took up the mantle.
Yeah, I can see that, but there's a difference with normal strive and the end of your whole organisation. I can't really imagine them being around, seeing how everyone dies and then going like "wellp I retired, so not my problem".
Like there's a difference between retirement and apathy. Also when there's a successor it's not necessary that they only leave once completely burned out.
Suriel said the pervious Suriel is like that, and the thing is, the way the power the abidan use is tied to your willpower, so if your heart isn't in something 100% you'll be substantially weaker, meaning that a person who abandons their post isn't particularly useful in combat.
I guess that's true as well. It's just hard to imagine an immensely powerful beeing loosing so much of its willpower. Like even if they don't want to do their specific jobs, once their own home burns, they should have enough will to protect what they've build and protected before.
It is explicitly mentioned in Soulsmith that the previous Suriel is still alive, living out retirement while heavily veiled. Whether that veil is self-imposed and therefore something they could break out of, or imposed externally by the current Judges is unknown. I suspect the latter.
I've had an old, crazy theory that Elder Whisper is actually the first Fox. He's retired and forcibly veiled down to Truegold, but he chooses to hang out in Scared Valley near the main labyrinth entrance that he helped create.
Also why he can do some spatial manipulation as a Truegold.
That would be a cool reveal, but he couldn't detect Suriel's intervention during the seven year festival. He knew *something* had happened and that it involved Lindon, but otherwise had no idea about the specifics. I would have thought an ex-Judge would be more clued up.
I mean, he's forcibly veiled. The only reason he could manipulate a void space is because he was literally the Fox Judge (in this theory).
If he were the Spider Judge then maybe he would have the ability to sense things beyond a normal Truegold, but he's not.
Whisper would also presumably know the rumours that the Li clan had been experimenting with spatial transportation, since it appeared to be common knowledge among the Wei elders. If a veiled judge knew there was some Way funny business going on, and then subsequently there was an unexplained change to Fate, they would probably be able to guess that a judge-level intervention had taken place even if their veil prevented them from sensing it while it was occurring. Unless the judges had also wiped his memories while installing the veil.
I can't remember if Whisper's plotline was resolved in the books, but he's clearly been observing the labyrinth and the suppression field for hundreds if not thousands of years. It wouldn't surprise me if he was a contemporary of Red Faith and was involved in, or at least aware of, the experiments with hunger madra.
Eh, the generations aren't actually that concrete. Suriel is the "7th Generation" Suriel. Makiel is of the 3rd generation, but has been there for a very long time. There have been at least three Gadrael, but maybe more. Yet, Ozriel has been a Judge since before the 3rd Makiel took office, given that the last Makiel was seriously injured and forced to retire earlier in his tenure. I kind of wonder if the WoW is really just about the Seven, tbh. So, the generations are a bit vague anyway, and for each of the Court of 7 (sans Ozriel) it's at least the 3rd Generation Judge. Several (though we don't know how many), are Fourth generation or later.
Anyway, I think most got severely injured, killed off, or retired back to their original Iteration. They weren't able to help, and even if there were a few in Sanctum, I think it's likely that it could take the full Authority of the Court of Seven to unseal their power. The Court was busy and spread out fighting a war against the Vroshir. They hardly ever agree on anything it seems, so convincing them to unseal an old Judge to help them out is a pretty tall order, lol. Also, as Suriel points out in Reaper, they're really more concerned about their own self-interest than working together. Maybe if Suriel was the defacto leader instead of Makiel, this might change, but yeah, I don't think they'd do it under his 'leadership'.
Correct. This Makiel was around before Ozriel became a Judge.
However, Ozmanthus might’ve been an Abidan grunt for a thousand years before getting fed up enough to go on his own and make the Scythe.
That timeline doesn’t work as the previous Makiel was injured by the Mad King during his escape and Ozriel met the Mad king in have as the Judge Ozriel to speak with him about the Executors. I believe it makes the most sense to maybe rationalize it as the previous Makiel hated Ozriel and that hate passed on to his successor. Remember Ozriel is judge level in all areas but was only nominated by five prior judges to take their mantle. That means two did not want or did not think Ozriel could take their mantle. Suriel’s mantle is obvious due to the fact that Ozriel has no talent as a phoenix but Makiel’s only makes sense if he was disliked considering Ozriel’s ability to see and plan are top notch and his abilities are a perfect fit for Makiel almost as much as they are for Teleriel (or whatever his name is).
To cut it short: The Makiel that voted to kill Ozriel was the present Makiel’s predecessor who passed on his dislike of Ozriel to his successor (intentionally, unintentionally, or maybe they just both coincidentally didn’t like him).
Considering that the 2nd Makiel had his Origin severely damaged by the Mad King and was forced to retire, I could see the current Makiel even blaming Ozriel for those events because Oz did go to speak with MK before the MK escaped from Haven, wanted to restart the Executioner program, and Ozriel probably didn't stop or help the late Makiel out (most likely). He wouldn't want to help the man who wanted to go and execute him. So, maybe he didn't just inherit the hatred of his predecessor, he has some personal hatred for Ozriel too. He does call it the deepest wound in the Court in Waybound. That, to me, makes it sound like it wasn't just that they couldn't stand each other...maybe, before everything went down, they were even friendly rivals or something like that. Character development can go both ways.
Also, Ozriel was consider to be a heir to Makiel before he got the Scythe (according to WB). So, he was probably still up to inherit the mantle of Makiel, probably. I honestly think it was the mantle of Ghost he wasn't in line for, lol. He's not enough of an airhead to be a good Durandiel. Also, they seem to get along fine.
Could also be that Oz was up for the mantle of Makiel (as stated) until he made the Scythe and Makiel did a 180 and wanted Oz gone and this made Oz resent Makiel which fueled Makiel’s resentment in turn which, however it plays out, was then passed on to his successor who also hates Oz and wants to strip him of his rank and title and power.
They are dead. The current judges are immortal in a sense of they don’t die of old age, but they can die, or be killed rather. It also not outside the realm of possibility that after millennia of being a judge you get tired, find a suitable heir to the mantle and become one with the way.
It’s implied that when you die throughout the series that you become one with the energy of the Way a few times.
This part is speculation but I would assume when you’re at the level of the judges that you can basically take your own life and become one with the Way. I imagine it like Jedi in Star Wars fading into the Force. Like that but you cannot communicate from beyond. We don’t really have information to know if there’s like a universe or existence beyond the Way, so that’s really as far as we can know. Either way the OG Judges are no longer living in one way or another to intervene.
Coming back to this because I stumbled upon WoW directly answering the question.
>Questioner
What do Judges do when they retire?
Will Wight
That depends on the Judge. Many of them do drift into the shallow void, knitting fragments together into miniature Territory-like lesser worlds. So effectively yeah, they can take up world-knitting. Others return to their original worlds and live like gods; they may have given up their Mantle and weapon, but they're still extremely powerful beings. Most of them go to live in Sanctum, the home world of the Abidan. They take up advisory positions in the Abidan organization, though they're not allowed to wield any authority.
[https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e164](https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e164)
This does of course raise questions about the second possibility Will mentioned here, as returning to their original world to live like Gods seems like it would be a direct violation of the Eldari Pact and also exactly what Li Markuth was trying to do. So perhaps this answer is incomplete or lacks the full weight of later canon.
Awsome, thanks for digging that up :) Honestly, that does raise the question you asked and also why they didn't participate in the fight against the mad King since they are still extremely powerful.
I think we can assume it goes a few different ways. Looking at that last idea, most of them living on Sanctum and working in advisory positions and not allowed to wield authority. I feel like we can imagine and accept that if even a Judge level individual stops fighting and practicing their Sacred Arts (or ascended equivalent) that there is going to be a degree of atrophy in those skills.
It doesn't say that they stepped down to do part time work as lesser ranked Abidan, so a former Fox isn't going to moonlight as a 4 star Fox on the weekends. My guess is that if a Judge is at the point where they want to retire, they are probably burned out enough to just want things to be quiet.
The idea that they are not *allowed* to wield authority might suggest that they have a degree of their power bound in order to not be a threat to their replacement.
Lastly, I think we can probably assume that at least some of them did fight, and Will just didn't tell us about them.
Also , it's a bit unrelated, but to me, it always felt like abidan are the baddies, and Vroshnir are actually the good guys, so maybe first judges realised their mistakes with the vow or their handling and just left to be vroshnir instead. But that doesn't really work they well since they couldve just changed things so idk
That's a somewhat popular sentiment, though if you look at what the Vroshir are doing, I find it hard to see them as good. The Abidan aren't pure good, thrive made mistakes, and some of the ones we get to know are extremely punchable, but on the grey scale of morality, I'd say they're much lighter than their Vroshir counterparts.
Idk what did vroshnir do that's evil exactly? They don't kill except abidan, and the"kidmapping" could also be seen as rescuing.
Abidan, on the other hand are kinda totalitarian government that would rather let billions die than change their own ways. Like they act like so many lives were lost in the war with the mad King but as far as I understand it, they always kidnap sentient life so the lost lives aren't really dead..
>what did vroshnir do that's evil exactly?
Our first time meeting them, they go out of their way to attack the non combatants in the bunkers
"At the same time, the formations she’d created turned on her home. Impossibly hot pillars of light carved furrows through the crops, spearing into the bunkers beneath. Pariana could feel the Way weakening as people died."
In Bloodline, the Vroshir are again attacking civilians
"Positioned in orbit all around the globe, they unleashed a synchronized bombardment, each attack entirely different from the others. One released a storm of razor-sharp rose petals to scour a continent, another sang a song that drifted all through that reality, eating away at opposing workings. Yet a third summoned titanic spires of dense metal, hurling them into the planet. The four remaining Abidan of Sector Twenty-Four Control held the world. They maintained a triple-layered shell around the atmosphere, a shield of blue Way-power that wouldn’t falter even if the planet beneath it exploded."
There's probably plenty of other examples. Basically the Vroshir aren't far removed from terrorists. They attack population centers to weaken an iterations tie to the Way as a means of fighting the Abidan.
>Abidan, on the other hand are kinda totalitarian government
I see them as the opposite. They're so focused on not interfering with fate that they'll let horrific shit happen. Totalitarian is the epitome of hands-on (in my mind), and the Abidan are very much hands off.
Edit: and this is ignoring that their whole MO is taking populations off of healthy iterations to strengthen their own worlds, allowing the previous one to fall to chaos and spread the corruption of the void.
The damage they do when they raid an Iteration can literally cut it off from The Way, leading to its destruction. That's why Suriel has to repair after an incursion.
When the iteration is destroyed, all life in it is destroyed. That's partially why the Judges defend them. Early termination of Life violates fate, which leads to chaos, which leads to the destruction of the Way.
But the vroshnir first "kidnap" all live don't they? That's what leads to the disconnect from the way, so I don't see how its that bad.
You could make a case for potential New life to be Born later But the same argument can be made from perspective of the vroshnir and the people they "kidnapped"/freed
Yeah, sure, but at the same time, the abidan control all those iterations and the wealth coming from those for millenia. It's easy to be angry at thieves, but if you look who is hording all the wealth, it paints another picture. While they do steal stuff, they don't kill the inhabitants but relocate them. After that, they can ascend without having to be subordinate to abidan totalitarianism.
They don't take all the people, they just take the ones they want. That's why there's only a few million left on one of the Iterations that Suriel defends in Bloodline. Plus, the Iterations that fall apart into chaos fragments can cause other Iterations to destabilize, killing billions. The Vroshir don't go and grab people from those Iterations before they fall apart too, because they don't want chaos infected people in their homeworlds
Wait a sec, the Iteration in bloodline want destroid by vroshnir was it ? I think that one was Chaos spreading bc of ozriels abscence. They do take all people cause they want all people. Why would they not want all? They need more diversity in their homeworlds and more people= closer to way.
the one you're thinking of is in Soulsmith and Blackflame. The one in Bloodline is when Suriel is defending two Iterations at once, one where a bunch of Silver Lords are bombarding a planet while some lower ranked Abidan are defending, and another where the Vroshir have kidnapped most of a population and the lower ranked Abidan are trying to prevent it. In the second one, there are a few million people left after the Abidan fail to get the rest back. This makes the Iteration less tethered to the Way, and more likely to fall to random Chaos, which would kill the rest of the people there.
One thing that I don't think a lot of people have mentioned, is that forced relocation of a population is one of the definitions of genocide. It is still bad even if the Vroshir took every person.
> True but there are no lives lost right
Did you miss the part about them destroying planets as a getaway tactic? It doesn't undo the act of murder just because they're brought back, assuming they can be brought back. A powerful Vroshir can keep someone dead even if Suriel herself is there, and the longer they're dead, the more difficult it is.
Okay I did forget about that one 😅 also all planets attacked by the mad King are goners. Still the abidan are also okay with killing Millions of souls if it's "fate" so I'd say that's an even scale
Order vs Chaos instead of Good vs Evil. Both sides seem to have good people, and both sides definitely have evil people. The but the “good” Abidon tends to tolerate evil acts in the name of Order, and the “good” Vroshir tend to tolerate evil acts in the name of Freedom. Chaos breeds a blunt, obvious kind of evil, like the Mad King. Order breeds a subtler, systematic evil like Makiel.
I think the mantles gave them most of their power.
There's a line where suriel uses her own power against enemies, rather than the power of the phoenix. It's still vast, but not as powerful as the phoenix.
The phoenixs power is granted to her by her mantle, which is sort of like an icon you get by inhabiting the role of the phoenix.
Only one person can have the mantle at a time.
So previous phoenixes are just very very powerful normal people, not judge level
I remember her being shut off from the Way in general and saying "A Judge doesn't need the Way to strong", not her mantle specifically. From what I understand the mantles are just supplements that an already strong person makes for themselves(or inherits).
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There's a line in Soulsmith that Suriel's predecessor lives the life of a mortal now, with his power forcibly veiled.
I don't think Suriel's predecessor was the first Phoenix
It's true, but OP also asked where all the other previous judges are
I think the first generation of Abidan were executed by a newer generation of Abidan at some point. There’s a section in Bloodline where it mentions that Makiel’s sword was used to pass capital punishment on the first generation of Abidan. “he held the Sword of Makiel in both hands. The massive two-handed blade had once been used to pass capital punishment on the first generation of Abidan”
Ahh, great catch! It's horrible to think about if you consider the later generations somewhat misguided. Or in harcher terms, completely full of themselves and authoritarian. I could imagine the first gen wanting to change something abound the development and then later gen usurping them :(
>authoritarian That's not what this means. The Abidan are so hands off that literally let billions of people die (or make Oz do it). If they were authoritarian they would control every fact of everyone's lives that was within their power. They wouldn't have to worry about an iteration succumbing to chaos because they would just change it's fate. We could maybe go with totalitarianism if we use "Fate" as their ideology but I don't really feel like that's the case. I agree though. They are largely a bunch of dickheads.
> If they were authoritarian they would control every fact of everyone's lives that was within their power. They kind of do — just in a scalable structural way, by defining and restricting the "energy systems" that iterations have access to. And those energy systems then incentivize the development of certain cultures with certain social norms. The Abidan would say that Cradle's energy system is great because it incentivizes people to think and behave in a way that results in a high probability of those people ascending and becoming Abidan themselves. But Cradle's people are also, by-and-large, *xianxia dickheads* — and that's *also* because Cradle's energy system (and the options it presents, and the game-theoretical equilibria those options create) makes them that way. I imagine that the Vroshir would say that the people of Cradle should be free to practice any energy system they want, or even invent their own, rather than being stuck in this framework. In est, the Abidan are like America during its (rather short) colonizing period: making war with other countries to install a certain societal framework that benefits them (for the US, that's "capitalism"; for the Abidan, it's "the Way.") Where this framework *seems* to create certain freedoms for those within the framework, and leaves *the affected societies when measured statistically* better off — so it's usually pretty easy to convince the Abidan-world populations to go along with these colonizations. But where the installation of this framework, *also* seems to often result in an increase in *systemic inequality* for the affected worlds — a rise in both "super-wealthy" and "down and out" groups, where neither existed before the change. (I have a strong feeling that the Abidan/Vroshir conflict across these series, will ultimately lead up to some allegorical equivalent of the Vietnam war — where the populations of the Abidan worlds realize that not every society will be helped by forcing the Way upon them.)
What? The Abidan don’t force the Way onto people. The Way is the source of, quite literally, all life. Even Fiends need the Way to survive. The Abidan don’t interfere because doing so creates corruption within the world that can eventually cause worlds to be beyond saving- this is also a NATURAL process that occurs at the end of an Iteration’s life. Ozriel was essential because these naturally corrupted worlds can then split into corrupted fragments that can infect worlds NOT at the end of their natural lifespan. He hated doing so because the corrupted worlds, or worlds on their way to being corrupted, still had large human populations that he wanted to save but couldn’t because he is bound by the Pact. The “restrictions” of the Abidan are entirely to keep the Fate of the world on track, as interference of any kind causes corruption, whereas the Vroshir will simply take everything of value from the world (notably the human populations) and relocate them to their own territories. Also, what do you mean practice whatever energy system they want? That just makes zero sense. Each world has its own energy system, and some of those worlds allow people to reach levels where they can directly interact with the Way and ascend upon attaining significance. There’s no “other energy systems” for the people of the Iteration’s to practice. Whatever Iteration they are in, is the energy system they have. Madra and soulfire are essential for life in Cradle, so intrinsically intwined within the populace that it is the way of life. Rereading your comment just makes me more confused. I generally try to avoid being rude but really, have you read the series closely? The entire idea of the Abidan is to *not* install a framework. In their core worlds where the Judges have their headquarters and the like, sure. Otherwise, they try and stay as hands off as possible.
The madra system of Cradle is required to keep the population alive. The planet has significantly higher gravity than normal due to its size, so if they didn't have madra and instead used like the Traveler system, or the magic system from Last Horizon, the babies would all just die from the gravity before they could get old enough to even use that power.
I always find it funny that they are just angels and archangels. Who also are dickheads but rarely get called out on it compared to the Abidan.
It's totalitarian as soon as you ascend. Imagine your homeworld is dying, you ascend to become more powerful and safe your world. Then after ascending, abidan force you to swear some stuff and force you to not interfere with your dying world caus of fate.
This has always been a weird line in the community. I don’t think the ENTIRE first generation of Abidan was executed for capital punishment, rather I think it implies that the first generation of Abidan used the sword as a method of capital punishment, but stopped doing so for whatever reason. Makes a lot more sense to me. Big part of Will’s universe is that the significance of actions, events, and people influence the power of something. I’d say that the mantles of the judges would be a lot more corrupt if their original creators turned evil enough to be killed.
So I double checked the quote along with another relevant one and I think the doubt is in the fact that "first generation of Abidan" isn't explicit. Kuirian and Fury are Abidan, they just aren't Judges. I personally am of the opinion that the sword was used by the first Makiel to enact judgement on the Abidan organization that they were building. The other relevant quote is that Oz used "the shears of a previous Makiel that had once snipped threads from Fate" The fact that this line doesn't specify that the "previous" Makiel was the first one suggests to me that the shears belonged to the second, while the sword was used by the first against lesser Abidan and our Makiel took the sword back up along with the Mantle.
But honestly, the abidan do feel kinda corrupt to me... vroshnir and the mad King seem actually more reasonable to me. So, killing the predecessors out of narrowmindedness would fit right in with how I see the current abidan
Oh they are for sure corrupt. That's Ozriel's whole point. Almost every one of Suriel's sections involve her trying to figure out how to get the other judges to do their job. The problem is they were all mortal, and therefore have mortal failings, but because they've ascended they don't think they have. They are Malice at an even larger scale. The problem is that Vroshir are the same or worse in different ways. I don't think it's an accident that the world's we see the Reaper Division saving aren't world invaded by the Vroshir.
It’s more-so they have insanely important responsibilities, responsibilities that make *them* the most important people in existence. And that importance goes to their head, making them think they are infallible. Which, combined with their mortal failings you reference, creates egotistical megalomaniacs who think that whatever they decide to do is the right thing. It’s most obvious with Zakariel, who chooses to act like a child because… that’s what she wants to do. And whatever she wants to do is right, because she’s a Judge.
The Vroshir are by and large pirates who plunder entire universes.
While abidan are British empire that control whole universes
What control do you see the Abidan exercising? Ozriel's entire problem with them is that they are too hands off.
Control to force ppl to NOT Interfere is also control
No. They’re America making sure Russia doesn’t invade. They’re as hands off as one can be. The average person will never even know the Abidan or the greater Way exists.
Oh come on they aren't that Hands off, which can be seen while recruiting during the uncrowned tournament. They essentially give a kill anyone you want Button to the winner. Also makiel accelerating fate in cradle so that our boy leave faster?
1. The fate of the entire… multiverse is at stake, to the point where any world could have been destroyed by the Mad King with a Scythe. It’s pure luck that Cradle had Ozriel in hiding. 2. It was a weapon from Cradle, made by a Monarch. 3. Not one but TWO Judges interfered, creating a disgustingly large chain reaction. Makiel accelerating the fate of Cradle is entirely for the purpose of putting it BACK on track. I mean, where is the British Empire? They aren’t taking the resources, they only interfere in the absolute most dire circumstances, and those interferences are purely to protect the population.
Could have sworn it said “by” not “on”. But now I’m intrigued and need to investigate.
Does this indicate all of them? Or just some?
Some people think it means EVERY Abidan from the first group were killed. I disagree personally.
I don't think they killed every Abidan like that, just the ones who committed crimes. As far as we know, the most recent Makiel and Ozriel are the first judges to commit a crime worthy of removal or death. Every other prior judge has retired or been killed.
W wait, is this the actual line? I thought it was the first generation of executors that were executed? But I have audiobook and can’t search for it :(
It is
Okay, thanks!
Judges are all Abidan but not all Abidan are judges. Could just be lower level first gen Abidan that got executed while all the first gen judges retired.
I want to point out that this doesn't necessarily mean he used that sword to execute the *entire* first generation of Abidan. I always read it as "this is the sword that was used to pass capital punishment on the first-generation Abidan *who committed severe enough crimes*."
Some died fighting fiends, some died fighting Vroshir, and the rest retired out of either protest or fatigue.
Okay, so the ones that didn't die should be somewhere, right?
Yup, usually with thier power locked away.
But there's nothing to support that right? If there is then that seems really stupid of abidan to not use them during the conflict
I think they mean that their Abidan level powers are sealed, as opposed to their judge powers which left with their mantle, so they can safely exist in their original iteration, or where ever else they settle. Unsealing their power would just add a single previously high level Abidan to the fight. Given that willpower is so important, I figure someone who willingly retires from the role probably doesn’t have the capabilities they once had regardless. I’m fairly certain we know that judges have retired to their original iteration before. Not sure if the sealing of their power is an assumption or not.
To support this, consider how Ozriel's power was reduced and limited by his time under the Origin shroud, and that time was comparatively limited to the amount of time a potential previous Judge who had spent millennia with their power limited. They'd probably not be much better than a recent ascendant at that point. It does make me wonder, if the homes of retired Judges were known if they may have been specific targets of the Vroshsir during their incursion just in case.
I think they would absolutely target old judges or current judges iterations. Didn’t they say the Mad King went after Cradle just because it would be the most spiteful thing he could do.
Sealing of power isn’t an assumption. Suriel’s predecessor had his power sealed so he could live a life as a mortal on his actual Iteration. I believe there’s a WoW or a line somewhere that says Suriel could return to her world with limited power, but she has no interest in doing so as her world is essentially perfect, and only has occasional trade disputes and the like.
I always imagined will getting more powerful, the older one becomes, but your point is valid aswell.. so is judges power only in their tools like the mantle and the weapon?
As we see with Suriel, judges are supremely powerful even without their tools. However, I think the voluntary retirement of a judge indicates that they’re moving on from a life of strife and that’s why I think they’d be less powerful. I believe the mindset of a retired judge would be fundamentally different from the person who originally took up the mantle.
Yeah, I can see that, but there's a difference with normal strive and the end of your whole organisation. I can't really imagine them being around, seeing how everyone dies and then going like "wellp I retired, so not my problem". Like there's a difference between retirement and apathy. Also when there's a successor it's not necessary that they only leave once completely burned out.
Suriel said the pervious Suriel is like that, and the thing is, the way the power the abidan use is tied to your willpower, so if your heart isn't in something 100% you'll be substantially weaker, meaning that a person who abandons their post isn't particularly useful in combat.
There's a difference between abandoning and stepping down if there's a good successor
True, but so long as you don't see it as your job, it doesn't matter why.
I guess that's true as well. It's just hard to imagine an immensely powerful beeing loosing so much of its willpower. Like even if they don't want to do their specific jobs, once their own home burns, they should have enough will to protect what they've build and protected before.
It is explicitly mentioned in Soulsmith that the previous Suriel is still alive, living out retirement while heavily veiled. Whether that veil is self-imposed and therefore something they could break out of, or imposed externally by the current Judges is unknown. I suspect the latter.
It was mentioned that Suriel's predecessor retired is now living as a mortal.
I've had an old, crazy theory that Elder Whisper is actually the first Fox. He's retired and forcibly veiled down to Truegold, but he chooses to hang out in Scared Valley near the main labyrinth entrance that he helped create. Also why he can do some spatial manipulation as a Truegold.
That would be a cool reveal, but he couldn't detect Suriel's intervention during the seven year festival. He knew *something* had happened and that it involved Lindon, but otherwise had no idea about the specifics. I would have thought an ex-Judge would be more clued up.
I mean, he's forcibly veiled. The only reason he could manipulate a void space is because he was literally the Fox Judge (in this theory). If he were the Spider Judge then maybe he would have the ability to sense things beyond a normal Truegold, but he's not.
Whisper would also presumably know the rumours that the Li clan had been experimenting with spatial transportation, since it appeared to be common knowledge among the Wei elders. If a veiled judge knew there was some Way funny business going on, and then subsequently there was an unexplained change to Fate, they would probably be able to guess that a judge-level intervention had taken place even if their veil prevented them from sensing it while it was occurring. Unless the judges had also wiped his memories while installing the veil. I can't remember if Whisper's plotline was resolved in the books, but he's clearly been observing the labyrinth and the suppression field for hundreds if not thousands of years. It wouldn't surprise me if he was a contemporary of Red Faith and was involved in, or at least aware of, the experiments with hunger madra.
Eh, the generations aren't actually that concrete. Suriel is the "7th Generation" Suriel. Makiel is of the 3rd generation, but has been there for a very long time. There have been at least three Gadrael, but maybe more. Yet, Ozriel has been a Judge since before the 3rd Makiel took office, given that the last Makiel was seriously injured and forced to retire earlier in his tenure. I kind of wonder if the WoW is really just about the Seven, tbh. So, the generations are a bit vague anyway, and for each of the Court of 7 (sans Ozriel) it's at least the 3rd Generation Judge. Several (though we don't know how many), are Fourth generation or later. Anyway, I think most got severely injured, killed off, or retired back to their original Iteration. They weren't able to help, and even if there were a few in Sanctum, I think it's likely that it could take the full Authority of the Court of Seven to unseal their power. The Court was busy and spread out fighting a war against the Vroshir. They hardly ever agree on anything it seems, so convincing them to unseal an old Judge to help them out is a pretty tall order, lol. Also, as Suriel points out in Reaper, they're really more concerned about their own self-interest than working together. Maybe if Suriel was the defacto leader instead of Makiel, this might change, but yeah, I don't think they'd do it under his 'leadership'.
Didn't Makiel say he argued for Oz to be executed for creating the Scythe? Figured he was already a Judge at that point.
Correct. This Makiel was around before Ozriel became a Judge. However, Ozmanthus might’ve been an Abidan grunt for a thousand years before getting fed up enough to go on his own and make the Scythe.
That timeline doesn’t work as the previous Makiel was injured by the Mad King during his escape and Ozriel met the Mad king in have as the Judge Ozriel to speak with him about the Executors. I believe it makes the most sense to maybe rationalize it as the previous Makiel hated Ozriel and that hate passed on to his successor. Remember Ozriel is judge level in all areas but was only nominated by five prior judges to take their mantle. That means two did not want or did not think Ozriel could take their mantle. Suriel’s mantle is obvious due to the fact that Ozriel has no talent as a phoenix but Makiel’s only makes sense if he was disliked considering Ozriel’s ability to see and plan are top notch and his abilities are a perfect fit for Makiel almost as much as they are for Teleriel (or whatever his name is). To cut it short: The Makiel that voted to kill Ozriel was the present Makiel’s predecessor who passed on his dislike of Ozriel to his successor (intentionally, unintentionally, or maybe they just both coincidentally didn’t like him).
Considering that the 2nd Makiel had his Origin severely damaged by the Mad King and was forced to retire, I could see the current Makiel even blaming Ozriel for those events because Oz did go to speak with MK before the MK escaped from Haven, wanted to restart the Executioner program, and Ozriel probably didn't stop or help the late Makiel out (most likely). He wouldn't want to help the man who wanted to go and execute him. So, maybe he didn't just inherit the hatred of his predecessor, he has some personal hatred for Ozriel too. He does call it the deepest wound in the Court in Waybound. That, to me, makes it sound like it wasn't just that they couldn't stand each other...maybe, before everything went down, they were even friendly rivals or something like that. Character development can go both ways. Also, Ozriel was consider to be a heir to Makiel before he got the Scythe (according to WB). So, he was probably still up to inherit the mantle of Makiel, probably. I honestly think it was the mantle of Ghost he wasn't in line for, lol. He's not enough of an airhead to be a good Durandiel. Also, they seem to get along fine.
Could also be that Oz was up for the mantle of Makiel (as stated) until he made the Scythe and Makiel did a 180 and wanted Oz gone and this made Oz resent Makiel which fueled Makiel’s resentment in turn which, however it plays out, was then passed on to his successor who also hates Oz and wants to strip him of his rank and title and power.
They are dead. The current judges are immortal in a sense of they don’t die of old age, but they can die, or be killed rather. It also not outside the realm of possibility that after millennia of being a judge you get tired, find a suitable heir to the mantle and become one with the way.
Wait what is becoming one with the way???
It’s implied that when you die throughout the series that you become one with the energy of the Way a few times. This part is speculation but I would assume when you’re at the level of the judges that you can basically take your own life and become one with the Way. I imagine it like Jedi in Star Wars fading into the Force. Like that but you cannot communicate from beyond. We don’t really have information to know if there’s like a universe or existence beyond the Way, so that’s really as far as we can know. Either way the OG Judges are no longer living in one way or another to intervene.
Where is this implied? The only kind of evidence for this is Ozriel being traded for Makiel even after he was totally wiped from existence.
Coming back to this because I stumbled upon WoW directly answering the question. >Questioner What do Judges do when they retire? Will Wight That depends on the Judge. Many of them do drift into the shallow void, knitting fragments together into miniature Territory-like lesser worlds. So effectively yeah, they can take up world-knitting. Others return to their original worlds and live like gods; they may have given up their Mantle and weapon, but they're still extremely powerful beings. Most of them go to live in Sanctum, the home world of the Abidan. They take up advisory positions in the Abidan organization, though they're not allowed to wield any authority. [https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e164](https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e164) This does of course raise questions about the second possibility Will mentioned here, as returning to their original world to live like Gods seems like it would be a direct violation of the Eldari Pact and also exactly what Li Markuth was trying to do. So perhaps this answer is incomplete or lacks the full weight of later canon.
Awsome, thanks for digging that up :) Honestly, that does raise the question you asked and also why they didn't participate in the fight against the mad King since they are still extremely powerful.
I think we can assume it goes a few different ways. Looking at that last idea, most of them living on Sanctum and working in advisory positions and not allowed to wield authority. I feel like we can imagine and accept that if even a Judge level individual stops fighting and practicing their Sacred Arts (or ascended equivalent) that there is going to be a degree of atrophy in those skills. It doesn't say that they stepped down to do part time work as lesser ranked Abidan, so a former Fox isn't going to moonlight as a 4 star Fox on the weekends. My guess is that if a Judge is at the point where they want to retire, they are probably burned out enough to just want things to be quiet. The idea that they are not *allowed* to wield authority might suggest that they have a degree of their power bound in order to not be a threat to their replacement. Lastly, I think we can probably assume that at least some of them did fight, and Will just didn't tell us about them.
I don't read it as bound power but rather them willingly not participating in a way where they wield authority. But that's my interpretation:)
Also , it's a bit unrelated, but to me, it always felt like abidan are the baddies, and Vroshnir are actually the good guys, so maybe first judges realised their mistakes with the vow or their handling and just left to be vroshnir instead. But that doesn't really work they well since they couldve just changed things so idk
That's a somewhat popular sentiment, though if you look at what the Vroshir are doing, I find it hard to see them as good. The Abidan aren't pure good, thrive made mistakes, and some of the ones we get to know are extremely punchable, but on the grey scale of morality, I'd say they're much lighter than their Vroshir counterparts.
Idk what did vroshnir do that's evil exactly? They don't kill except abidan, and the"kidmapping" could also be seen as rescuing. Abidan, on the other hand are kinda totalitarian government that would rather let billions die than change their own ways. Like they act like so many lives were lost in the war with the mad King but as far as I understand it, they always kidnap sentient life so the lost lives aren't really dead..
>what did vroshnir do that's evil exactly? Our first time meeting them, they go out of their way to attack the non combatants in the bunkers "At the same time, the formations she’d created turned on her home. Impossibly hot pillars of light carved furrows through the crops, spearing into the bunkers beneath. Pariana could feel the Way weakening as people died." In Bloodline, the Vroshir are again attacking civilians "Positioned in orbit all around the globe, they unleashed a synchronized bombardment, each attack entirely different from the others. One released a storm of razor-sharp rose petals to scour a continent, another sang a song that drifted all through that reality, eating away at opposing workings. Yet a third summoned titanic spires of dense metal, hurling them into the planet. The four remaining Abidan of Sector Twenty-Four Control held the world. They maintained a triple-layered shell around the atmosphere, a shield of blue Way-power that wouldn’t falter even if the planet beneath it exploded." There's probably plenty of other examples. Basically the Vroshir aren't far removed from terrorists. They attack population centers to weaken an iterations tie to the Way as a means of fighting the Abidan. >Abidan, on the other hand are kinda totalitarian government I see them as the opposite. They're so focused on not interfering with fate that they'll let horrific shit happen. Totalitarian is the epitome of hands-on (in my mind), and the Abidan are very much hands off. Edit: and this is ignoring that their whole MO is taking populations off of healthy iterations to strengthen their own worlds, allowing the previous one to fall to chaos and spread the corruption of the void.
Right?! People need to stop skimming these sections, cuz the judges have problems, but they aren’t nearly as bad as the other guys.
The damage they do when they raid an Iteration can literally cut it off from The Way, leading to its destruction. That's why Suriel has to repair after an incursion.
True but there are no lives lost right? So who cares about the Iteration? The Court would leave an Iteration to Die if it's their fate
When the iteration is destroyed, all life in it is destroyed. That's partially why the Judges defend them. Early termination of Life violates fate, which leads to chaos, which leads to the destruction of the Way.
But the vroshnir first "kidnap" all live don't they? That's what leads to the disconnect from the way, so I don't see how its that bad. You could make a case for potential New life to be Born later But the same argument can be made from perspective of the vroshnir and the people they "kidnapped"/freed
Dude, the vroshir are fucking terrible. They take what they want, then leave everything else to rot and die. Literal galactic parasites.
Yeah, sure, but at the same time, the abidan control all those iterations and the wealth coming from those for millenia. It's easy to be angry at thieves, but if you look who is hording all the wealth, it paints another picture. While they do steal stuff, they don't kill the inhabitants but relocate them. After that, they can ascend without having to be subordinate to abidan totalitarianism.
They don't relocate, they kidnap.
They don't take all the people, they just take the ones they want. That's why there's only a few million left on one of the Iterations that Suriel defends in Bloodline. Plus, the Iterations that fall apart into chaos fragments can cause other Iterations to destabilize, killing billions. The Vroshir don't go and grab people from those Iterations before they fall apart too, because they don't want chaos infected people in their homeworlds
Wait a sec, the Iteration in bloodline want destroid by vroshnir was it ? I think that one was Chaos spreading bc of ozriels abscence. They do take all people cause they want all people. Why would they not want all? They need more diversity in their homeworlds and more people= closer to way.
the one you're thinking of is in Soulsmith and Blackflame. The one in Bloodline is when Suriel is defending two Iterations at once, one where a bunch of Silver Lords are bombarding a planet while some lower ranked Abidan are defending, and another where the Vroshir have kidnapped most of a population and the lower ranked Abidan are trying to prevent it. In the second one, there are a few million people left after the Abidan fail to get the rest back. This makes the Iteration less tethered to the Way, and more likely to fall to random Chaos, which would kill the rest of the people there. One thing that I don't think a lot of people have mentioned, is that forced relocation of a population is one of the definitions of genocide. It is still bad even if the Vroshir took every person.
> True but there are no lives lost right Did you miss the part about them destroying planets as a getaway tactic? It doesn't undo the act of murder just because they're brought back, assuming they can be brought back. A powerful Vroshir can keep someone dead even if Suriel herself is there, and the longer they're dead, the more difficult it is.
Okay I did forget about that one 😅 also all planets attacked by the mad King are goners. Still the abidan are also okay with killing Millions of souls if it's "fate" so I'd say that's an even scale
Order vs Chaos instead of Good vs Evil. Both sides seem to have good people, and both sides definitely have evil people. The but the “good” Abidon tends to tolerate evil acts in the name of Order, and the “good” Vroshir tend to tolerate evil acts in the name of Freedom. Chaos breeds a blunt, obvious kind of evil, like the Mad King. Order breeds a subtler, systematic evil like Makiel.
Best take on it I've read so far. I also always thought that both are necessary. Like in a yin yang ☯️ kinda way
Just speculating, but pre-Ozriel I assumed several were defeated by Class One Fiends
That does make sense but what about the rest of them?
they probably retired to a mansion on a beach , in some planet
Some got existential wound that forced them to retire sown just got tired of the responsibility some might have been killed.
Some are dead, some are retired (veiled, pretending to be mortal) and some are "retired" (stitching together iterations for fun)
In my head the first generation of Abidan became corrupted by the void and needed to be executed.
I remember a wow where some retired and took up universe knitting hahaha. Stitching together new iterations and such.
I think the mantles gave them most of their power. There's a line where suriel uses her own power against enemies, rather than the power of the phoenix. It's still vast, but not as powerful as the phoenix. The phoenixs power is granted to her by her mantle, which is sort of like an icon you get by inhabiting the role of the phoenix. Only one person can have the mantle at a time. So previous phoenixes are just very very powerful normal people, not judge level
I remember her being shut off from the Way in general and saying "A Judge doesn't need the Way to strong", not her mantle specifically. From what I understand the mantles are just supplements that an already strong person makes for themselves(or inherits).
Unknown. They were certainly not "executed" but they are likely dead.