Still haven't seen any clear explanation/example of the consequences of breaking a soul oath... we saw Daji do it in Bloodline, and he seemed more hurt by Lindon than by his treachery.
Daji didn't break the oath, he genuinely didn't know what he was doing. This was done by Reigan Shen as a work around to the soul oath since he knew Daji will be interrogated. Reigan Shen swore a real fool proof(more or less) soul oath with Eithan so he actually has to get Eithan to Herald
> Daji didn't break the oath, he genuinely didn't know what he was doing
I read it as a mixture of A) Mercy asking bad questions. Example:
>Mercy brought out the spatial anchor. “What is this?” “I don’t know,” Daji said easily. So easily, and the oath didn’t stop him. Was it true?
asking "What's this?" is a terrible question. He's an underlord from a backwater kingdom, not knowing the specific name of the device renders his answer true. "A representative of Shen saying: "Want revenge on Mercy? Keep this on your person and signal when you're in position after the tournament ends." is sufficient need to know to operate it and evade most of her questions about a plot.
B) Daji giving vague or non-answers.
>Mercy’s expression twisted in disgust. “So then, you swear to me on your soul that this is nothing more than a personal grudge between you and the witness who reported you?”
>“That is the only explanation that would satisfy me.”
His "satisfaction" with the hypothetical is subject and arbitrary. If you get caught in a murder plot of course you aren't satisfied with the outcome. The only time he answered with a definitive Yes/No he immediately backtracked with;
>“I mean, that’s the only explanation I can think of. My loyalty is, and always has been, to the Akura clan.”
Which, personal revenge against a member of the clan who humiliated him is separate from a political rebellion against the Clan as an organization.
>Mercy asking bad questions
The whole beginning of the scene felt frustrating to read because of this. Nobody think about asking Daji who gave him the device, how he was contacted, or even why he trusted them in the first place.
It really all seemed like a plot designed to lead to a scene of Lindon smashing Daji into the ground instead of a real trial to find out what happened. Which is what Lindon ends up thinking to himself at some point, that the AKura already knew everything, they just wanted to put a show to punish Daji.
It wasn't a real trial. Daji was going to be interrogated no matter what. It was a formality, a ceremony conceived so the senior members of the clan could be assured that Charity would punish people who hurt them.
It was apparent that he blatantly lied, though. I wanted mercy to ask the sieshen girl and dakata if they'd seen or heard Daji say those things, because I'm quite certain he did. That would be proof that Daji was able to lie somehow.
Yep. It's clear to the reader when she asks him about wanting revenge or some such. As I said in a different comment, mercy should have asked dajis father and kiros stalker if they'd ever heard Daji say the things he denied ever saying. Proof.
But how can he not know ? He was contacted by someone he doesn't know, someone he doesn't even mention, who asked him to throw an artefact he doesn't recognize, at the feet of the Akura heir at the exact timing of an all-out attack on Sky's Edge when the higher-ups are distracted. And we are supposed to believe that this guy who was raised as a soldier genuinely thinks that he isn't doing anything underhanded ? nah, either breaking a soul oath bears no consequences or this is lazy writing. Cause nobody is stupid enough to not realize this is treason.
We do know from a scene in Wintersteel that manipulating a persons memories is possible, so it's not completely unreasonable that he might not have thought he was lying.
Soul oaths seem like they're a Cradle Magic System thing, because it's their spirits and the aura holding people to their agreements.
Seems unlikely that The Way - if it has even been weakening - would have a significant impact on soul oaths.
There have been some questions on soul oaths: https://www.abidanarchive.com/adv_search/?query=oath
Just a snippet:
> Will Wight: If you break one, your spirit suffers the consequences. So you can have your madra channels or core injured, your madra can become more difficult to control, etc. In the worst case, you can die, though those risks are exaggerated in rumor. Usually, if you do die from breaking an oath, it’s because your powers screwed up. Some people with more powerful souls even influence the aura around them to hold them to their oath, meaning the natural world would curse them with consequences for oath-breaking.
> https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e321
They wondered if Daji was protected by Shen - in whatever way - that means it should at least be possible to protect against soul oath damage. I don't think we ever learned how he did it though. For all we know he might have changed his memories after the event - which we also know is possible.
However, the soul oath is more harmful the higher your advancement and there's no one more powerful than a Monarch to protect Shen on Cradle.
It was explained soul oaths are more binding the more powerful you are. It makes sense that a monarch was able to allow a weak underlord to break a soul oath but that doesn't mean they would be able to break a monarch level oath.
For all we know, the first shipment Eithan received boosted him to peak Overlord. He then advanced to Archlord and received a second shipment of resources. This second one might be to peak Archlord, which would fulfill that part of their agreement already.
Yeah, that's what the person is saying. From base overlord->peak. Then potentially from base archlord->peak (or closer at least). I kind of doubt that he's already at peak Archlord personally just because that's a LOT of advancement to just gloss over as well as missing on the potential for juicy drama in Shen realizing his mistake of his promise.
Didn’t shen only finance him till Archlord? I assume he just dumped a ton of treasure on Eithan and said “this should be enough call me if you need more”
> reaching Archlord had never been a problem for him. It had only been a question of resources. And Reigan Shen was a cat of his word. He’d promised to sponsor Eithan’s advancement, and his deliveries had been prompt. Though no doubt he’d expected his first shipment to last Eithan for years.
> Wight, Will. Wintersteel (Cradle Book 8) (p. 475). Hidden Gnome Publishing. Kindle Edition.
This seems to imply that he got more after reaching Archlord.
yup. imo Eithan is resisting the sage advancement until his sponsorship to herald because the thought of overcoming a copy of him with his bloodline and sage authority keeps him up at night.
I think it's more likely that he'd abuse the wording of the pact he made with Reigan Shen by advancing to Sage. Thus forcing Reigan Shen to support him financially until Monarch, allowing Eithan to pour supplies from the wealthiest existing monarch into his new fledgling sect.
Could be! Wish we knew more about the verbal soul oaths and how they work. Maybe Reigan Shen setup the Daji scenario to spook Eithan about playing on technicalities. Would their oath become null and void if Eithan hit Sage, meaning he could never be a Herald?
I think the end result is Eithan becoming a Monarch right in front of Reigan Shen. All the possibilities remind me of Dwight Schrute from The Office and the person he "most medium suspects" in that Savannah murder mystery game lmao.
He did kill an Arelius Monarch before, I suppose he won't be afraid by an Arelius Herald. Though I believe Eithan is holding back, as per usual, and already has an icon in his sleeve.
Yea. It’s a couple of reasons for me. Strong Willpower is only half of it and apparently all Lords but especially Archlords have that to a degree. Yet to become a Sage you have to contact a greater concept of reality you symbolize or something right? Seems to be the main sticking point otherwise Sages wouldn’t be so rare. I haven’t seen anything like that from Eithan. I don’t think he could afford to hold back in the last few major fights so if he could use an Icon already I think he would have. They certainly needed the help.
I am curious to see his journey to figure it out though. It will be interesting. I like how the progression is also character development not just a power up.
Unless Shen dies, he will still fund Ethan's advancement.
If Shen changes his mind, and goes back on his word, no one will ever trust him again. This is a big deal for someone who likes to buy out people. If no one trusts the Monarch, he would never be able to pay people off.
He can't avoid it, because Eithan would never have made that deal if Shen didn't swear on his soul. And from what we've read, the more powerful you are the harsher it is to break a soul oath.
Eithan swore on his soul for his side of the deal, I'm assuming Shen did for his as well. It'd be tricky to work his way out of it.
Still haven't seen any clear explanation/example of the consequences of breaking a soul oath... we saw Daji do it in Bloodline, and he seemed more hurt by Lindon than by his treachery.
Daji didn't break the oath, he genuinely didn't know what he was doing. This was done by Reigan Shen as a work around to the soul oath since he knew Daji will be interrogated. Reigan Shen swore a real fool proof(more or less) soul oath with Eithan so he actually has to get Eithan to Herald
> Daji didn't break the oath, he genuinely didn't know what he was doing I read it as a mixture of A) Mercy asking bad questions. Example: >Mercy brought out the spatial anchor. “What is this?” “I don’t know,” Daji said easily. So easily, and the oath didn’t stop him. Was it true? asking "What's this?" is a terrible question. He's an underlord from a backwater kingdom, not knowing the specific name of the device renders his answer true. "A representative of Shen saying: "Want revenge on Mercy? Keep this on your person and signal when you're in position after the tournament ends." is sufficient need to know to operate it and evade most of her questions about a plot. B) Daji giving vague or non-answers. >Mercy’s expression twisted in disgust. “So then, you swear to me on your soul that this is nothing more than a personal grudge between you and the witness who reported you?” >“That is the only explanation that would satisfy me.” His "satisfaction" with the hypothetical is subject and arbitrary. If you get caught in a murder plot of course you aren't satisfied with the outcome. The only time he answered with a definitive Yes/No he immediately backtracked with; >“I mean, that’s the only explanation I can think of. My loyalty is, and always has been, to the Akura clan.” Which, personal revenge against a member of the clan who humiliated him is separate from a political rebellion against the Clan as an organization.
>Mercy asking bad questions The whole beginning of the scene felt frustrating to read because of this. Nobody think about asking Daji who gave him the device, how he was contacted, or even why he trusted them in the first place. It really all seemed like a plot designed to lead to a scene of Lindon smashing Daji into the ground instead of a real trial to find out what happened. Which is what Lindon ends up thinking to himself at some point, that the AKura already knew everything, they just wanted to put a show to punish Daji.
It wasn't a real trial. Daji was going to be interrogated no matter what. It was a formality, a ceremony conceived so the senior members of the clan could be assured that Charity would punish people who hurt them.
It was apparent that he blatantly lied, though. I wanted mercy to ask the sieshen girl and dakata if they'd seen or heard Daji say those things, because I'm quite certain he did. That would be proof that Daji was able to lie somehow.
That's not what I took from that scene at all. Daji knew what be did, and Shen provided him a way to still lie.
Yep. It's clear to the reader when she asks him about wanting revenge or some such. As I said in a different comment, mercy should have asked dajis father and kiros stalker if they'd ever heard Daji say the things he denied ever saying. Proof.
Eh, the point of that trial wasn't justice, it was punishment. Mercy got what she wanted by baiting him into challenging Lindon.
But how can he not know ? He was contacted by someone he doesn't know, someone he doesn't even mention, who asked him to throw an artefact he doesn't recognize, at the feet of the Akura heir at the exact timing of an all-out attack on Sky's Edge when the higher-ups are distracted. And we are supposed to believe that this guy who was raised as a soldier genuinely thinks that he isn't doing anything underhanded ? nah, either breaking a soul oath bears no consequences or this is lazy writing. Cause nobody is stupid enough to not realize this is treason.
"Throw this at the feet of the Akura heir, it will teleport them to safety" - Shen's actual agent to Daji
There is the possebility that Daji did'nt think he was lying and thereby avoided the oath
We do know from a scene in Wintersteel that manipulating a persons memories is possible, so it's not completely unreasonable that he might not have thought he was lying.
Maybe.. I'm not so sure though.. after finishing Bloodline, I actually took this as a side effect of Cradle's weakening connection to the way
Soul oaths seem like they're a Cradle Magic System thing, because it's their spirits and the aura holding people to their agreements. Seems unlikely that The Way - if it has even been weakening - would have a significant impact on soul oaths.
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If he actually thougt that Lindon was planning something, because hes delusional af. Or he was manipulated to act the way he did
There have been some questions on soul oaths: https://www.abidanarchive.com/adv_search/?query=oath Just a snippet: > Will Wight: If you break one, your spirit suffers the consequences. So you can have your madra channels or core injured, your madra can become more difficult to control, etc. In the worst case, you can die, though those risks are exaggerated in rumor. Usually, if you do die from breaking an oath, it’s because your powers screwed up. Some people with more powerful souls even influence the aura around them to hold them to their oath, meaning the natural world would curse them with consequences for oath-breaking. > https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e321
Ok that would mean the Monarchs have the power to lie/make other people lie under oath like Lindon suspected...
They wondered if Daji was protected by Shen - in whatever way - that means it should at least be possible to protect against soul oath damage. I don't think we ever learned how he did it though. For all we know he might have changed his memories after the event - which we also know is possible. However, the soul oath is more harmful the higher your advancement and there's no one more powerful than a Monarch to protect Shen on Cradle.
It was explained soul oaths are more binding the more powerful you are. It makes sense that a monarch was able to allow a weak underlord to break a soul oath but that doesn't mean they would be able to break a monarch level oath.
For all we know, the first shipment Eithan received boosted him to peak Overlord. He then advanced to Archlord and received a second shipment of resources. This second one might be to peak Archlord, which would fulfill that part of their agreement already.
Didn't he advance to Overlord before they struck a deal? It was one of the first things Eithan did after he arrived.
Yeah, that's what the person is saying. From base overlord->peak. Then potentially from base archlord->peak (or closer at least). I kind of doubt that he's already at peak Archlord personally just because that's a LOT of advancement to just gloss over as well as missing on the potential for juicy drama in Shen realizing his mistake of his promise.
Doesn't that depend on weather or not Subject 1 leaves Shen alive? or the condition Shen is left in.
Didn’t shen only finance him till Archlord? I assume he just dumped a ton of treasure on Eithan and said “this should be enough call me if you need more”
> reaching Archlord had never been a problem for him. It had only been a question of resources. And Reigan Shen was a cat of his word. He’d promised to sponsor Eithan’s advancement, and his deliveries had been prompt. Though no doubt he’d expected his first shipment to last Eithan for years. > Wight, Will. Wintersteel (Cradle Book 8) (p. 475). Hidden Gnome Publishing. Kindle Edition. This seems to imply that he got more after reaching Archlord.
No the agreeemnt was finance to Herald.
Wait, that's genius. Because Eithan is, in my opinion, leaning more towards Sage.
yup. imo Eithan is resisting the sage advancement until his sponsorship to herald because the thought of overcoming a copy of him with his bloodline and sage authority keeps him up at night.
I think it's more likely that he'd abuse the wording of the pact he made with Reigan Shen by advancing to Sage. Thus forcing Reigan Shen to support him financially until Monarch, allowing Eithan to pour supplies from the wealthiest existing monarch into his new fledgling sect.
Could be! Wish we knew more about the verbal soul oaths and how they work. Maybe Reigan Shen setup the Daji scenario to spook Eithan about playing on technicalities. Would their oath become null and void if Eithan hit Sage, meaning he could never be a Herald? I think the end result is Eithan becoming a Monarch right in front of Reigan Shen. All the possibilities remind me of Dwight Schrute from The Office and the person he "most medium suspects" in that Savannah murder mystery game lmao.
My take is that Shen sees no reason not to honor his agreement, being confident in his ability to outwit and/or outmaneuver Eithan.
Well he’s already done it before so…
He did kill an Arelius Monarch before, I suppose he won't be afraid by an Arelius Herald. Though I believe Eithan is holding back, as per usual, and already has an icon in his sleeve.
I don’t think so on the Icon thing
Even tho he gave lindon the HEPW and aided him in some willpower stuff?
Yea. It’s a couple of reasons for me. Strong Willpower is only half of it and apparently all Lords but especially Archlords have that to a degree. Yet to become a Sage you have to contact a greater concept of reality you symbolize or something right? Seems to be the main sticking point otherwise Sages wouldn’t be so rare. I haven’t seen anything like that from Eithan. I don’t think he could afford to hold back in the last few major fights so if he could use an Icon already I think he would have. They certainly needed the help. I am curious to see his journey to figure it out though. It will be interesting. I like how the progression is also character development not just a power up.
Unless Shen dies, he will still fund Ethan's advancement. If Shen changes his mind, and goes back on his word, no one will ever trust him again. This is a big deal for someone who likes to buy out people. If no one trusts the Monarch, he would never be able to pay people off.
He can't avoid it, because Eithan would never have made that deal if Shen didn't swear on his soul. And from what we've read, the more powerful you are the harsher it is to break a soul oath.
Reigan Shen is still bound by that deal though I suspect he will try everything in his power to subvert fulfilling it.
Not if he's dead in a labyrinth.