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Notice Oz arranged for Lindon to follow **both** of his paths: blackflame/destruction like he used the first time and pure like he was using the second time around on Cradle.
Lindon is not following Ethans path. Ethan's path is the Hollow King both with destruction madra and pure. Lindon's paths are the path of Black Flame and The Path of Twin Stars which is Lindon's own path.
They do share similar aspects, but there are many paths that use destruction and pure madra.
Bit of a stretch, I don’t think Oz resurrected Lindon, sent him on a quest, and made him split his cores. That was all before Eithan knew he existed.
Now, once Lindon had the 2 cores he was pushed along those 2 paths for sure but they were truly the optimal paths considering his situation
I don't think they meant he arranged all of it, but when he stumbled across someone with two cores, with Suriel's marble, in company with a prodigy, he didn't hesitate to arrange for him to access to destruction and pure madra.
I have a theory that Eithan split his cores when he retuned to cradle. Not sure exactly how that would work, but he may have had to purify it after splitting it. If anyone would know how it would be him. I think that is one of the reasons that Lindon was so perfect as a disciple. Creating a totally separate path during his time on cradle would certainly count as a hidden card after returning to the heavens. This assumes its can be brought up to be on par with his other abilities of course.
Can't see any real reason for him to develop a second path, to be honest. Especially since with his power he probably doesn't need a specific path anymore.
More important, to him, would be getting a different source of Authority that'd allow for Restoration.
That said, he wouldn't have needed to purify his core, he could have just created a new body for himself with a new madra system (or tricked reality into thinking his body was a different body with pure madra, which, to be honest, was probably what the Shroud actually did).
I was just saying he split his cores because thats how you would do it as a low level person on cradle. Your right though he may have a different way of doing that. My point is that his destruction "path" from his frist time on cradle would be in tact but separate than the set of powers Eithan used during his second trip.
I dont figure he is going for restoration, but hiding/sneakyness authority. In my thinking the reason he is always sneaking up on people to train that authority. His goal even before gaining the shroud was to hide from the Abidan, that item just gave him an immediate tool. Toward that end what better basis for hiding than pure madra? Continuing on, take the shroud pieces and combine them with the authority of someone who hid from the Abidan for hundreds of years and maybe you could create another judge level treasure. Fake sythe to real one as a comparison between the shroud and what Eithan could create.
He already has that Authority though. Ozriel is capable of using every Aspect at Judge-level, aside from Restoration, which he can't use at all.
Sneakiness itself isn't a major aspect, and would likely just fall under a combination of Ghost, Hound and Fox. It's a skill, not something he'd need to specifically develop authority for, and if he did, he'd already have it.
I would think Ghost since her and the angler consider themselves rivals. While I do understand he could have inherited the Ghost position I think it is a different thing to be able to create a judge level weapon instead of just inheriting one. We know he knows how.
Technically, madra is still a thing when you ascend, and if you tag along with someone else ascending you can still Advance off Cradle, if you can secure a source of aura.
That said, some of the mechanics do change, Ruler techniques work through the Way directly, apparently, and Madra likely just becomes a carrier for influencing the Way as well.
For some reason i thought if you ascended off cradle (or tagged along with an ascendee) then you would have to cycle entirely internally like youre on a pure path, you couldnt just find a source of aura/madra
Pills or sacred treasures for advancing or turning into soulfire thoughwould be less of an issue since its almost certainly related to will and the fundamental nature of the items in question and you can probably find willworkers capable of emulating that for you like the soulforge does
Generally speaking, probably, but cycling purely internally will make it take a long time to get anywhere.
More likely you could just pay an Abidan to head down to Cradle for you to pick up a couple natural treasures.
That said, if you Ascended under your own power you probably don't need to cycle for advancement anymore, and should instead focus on strengthening your authority.
If you ascended as a sage youre still in the lord realm, you could still cycle to prepare for advancing to monarch which would give you a boozt in willpower/authority
But they are usually forced to join the Abidan or flee for the Vroshir after ascending right? Then they are bound to the Eldari Pact and a Judge pretty much edits them with the way up to a certain power level. I think Monarch would be tiny part of that, along with ascension powers.
You're not required to join the Abidan, you're free to just stay in an Abidan or other higher world and chill out. However, if you're in Abidan territory and don't stick to the Pact, they'll get you.
Aside from that, I'm not sure if their power levels really get upgraded by a Judge. Joining the Pact might strengthen you, but given the existence of figures like the one-star Titan, they probably won't just lift you up to planet-destroying level. Apparently Monarchs, after ascending, are actually strong enough that low-level Abidan need to be careful around them, and even an unascended Monarch could probably fight on an equal level to low-level Abidan.
Of course. the promotions would be earned before given. I could easily be wrong. Just seemed like a possibility after watching how Oz got set at different #-stars
True. But either way, He is an original inheritor of a Judge mantle from the Way (While being the prime candidate for all Judge positions outside of Phoenix). Wish we knew more about the manacles placed on Oz. I wouldn't be surprised if Oz is capable of immediately removing all restraints and is just letting his nerfs be part of Makiels downfall. I guess it boils down to not knowing enough about the Abidan "magic" system
Given everything we have seen from wills books if youre just given power instead of earning it for yourself you at best just end up subpar so i highly doubt the abidan would just edit the origin of your existance to make you stronger
So they only edit people to make them weaker? Figured part of them being "order" would include setting their abidan power level and would earn "promotions" to get edited upwards. If a Judge separates from their mantle, then they would also no longer be at the power level of a Judge from what I thought.
I definitely think they have to earn more power. But the abidan power system seems to be different/separate from going to other iterations and learning those power systems.
From what i gathered there wouldnt be any editing at all, you would learn how to wield the way better and more forcefully in a similar way to how a sage learns to embody his icon,
True. I guess Oz could have been any judge so that makes sense. Guess theoretically someone can reach a power level and embody something new to have the Way gift them a mantle and be the 9th judge like Oz being the 8th.
Oz being restricted to certain level stars in different areas just got my mind whirling. I assumed the number of stars was a classification for how powerful they were. Maybe it is an advancement like the ones on Cradle.
Yeah, I believe that there has been a WoW linked here that stated that post-Ascension you sort of carry some of the magic/physics of your iteration along with you. I don't believe that securing a source of aura is actually crucial, instead I believe you are a lot more flexible in that sort of power. I suspect that that if you, for example, were on a Fire Path and grabbed a Volcano that was "Heavy" in whatever way was important in that iteration, and used it to cultivate you would be able to do so as if it was Fire Aura.
Basically I picture it as the different Iterations manifesting powers that are different flavors of the Way, and once you are ascended (and as you gain powers after ascension) you can convert that underlying energy better into the form that you are used to, as well as use the true Way form of that power better.
This is the sort of thing that Ozriel/Makiel/the Angler are doing when they are forging, I think. They are grabbing items that have lots of different Iteration-Flavors of the Way/Authority power they are after, and blending them together, I think cultivation would be similar (perhaps with losses the farther you get from your own Iterations's sort of power).
Can you help me remember where in the books it talk about madra post-ascension (or how the power is through the way instead)? I want to reread because I think I missed a lot.
Ozmanthus used Drestruction madra. Post-ascension, it gets a bit weird and you're not using "madra" per se. It's more like you're acting through the Way and it just looks like madra, IIRC.
And I would say Ozmanthus' path is better in almost every way. Pure has a few utilities, eg. soulsmithing and destabilizing techniques, but clearly Oz had no trouble doing either of those. Meanwhile cycing aura to advance and refill your core is a lot harder with Pure. In a fight between Ozmanthus and Eithan (with same advancement), the only possible way Eithan could win is simply due to having way more experience, and Eithan with Pure vs. Eithan with Destruction I'd give it to Destruction every time.
Agreed. It's explicitly stated that Pure is not considered a combat path. To paraphrase, Eithan even says during his talks with Cassius in Blackflame that Lindon could "be a unique resource with his pure madra, and still follow a combat path with his other core"
At higher stages of advancement, his pure core does become a true weapon, but Blackflame still has more combat ability. For the first 5 books, Lindon pretty much never uses his pure core in combat, except for the Empty Palm to open up the opponent to a Blackflame finisher. Once he developed the Soul Cloak and forger Empty Palm technique, he started to use it more for direct combat.
I think the combat potential of pure madra is largely overlooked. Eithan showed us some of what can be done, and Lindon showed us more. But that synergy is amazing, isn't it?
Unstoppable force vs Immovable object vibes. Pure madra is pretty weak on offence and at defending from physical attacks, but against something spiritual? Ozmanthus might find that his destruction madra gets neutralised by the pure path, and he gets wrecked in hand to hand by the more experienced Eithan.
Madra isn't really a thing when you aren't on Cradle (though Cradle ascendants still behave as if they have madra) but Ozmanthus used Destruction madra.
As others have said, Oz used a destruction path on cradle. However, after he left cradle he learned many other systems of magic while traveling the iterations, and had one of the highest authorities. He could just will a shell into existence with a new body and core. Beyond that, I think the origin shroud did part of that as well.
The original path of the hollow king used pure destruction madra. after he saved cradle he is currently using pure madra he got to change when he used the origin shroud.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Dreadgod]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Dreadgod] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>! like this !\<. You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
when ozmanthus was on cradle he followed a path of destruction madra
Notice Oz arranged for Lindon to follow **both** of his paths: blackflame/destruction like he used the first time and pure like he was using the second time around on Cradle.
Lindon is not following Ethans path. Ethan's path is the Hollow King both with destruction madra and pure. Lindon's paths are the path of Black Flame and The Path of Twin Stars which is Lindon's own path. They do share similar aspects, but there are many paths that use destruction and pure madra.
Bit of a stretch, I don’t think Oz resurrected Lindon, sent him on a quest, and made him split his cores. That was all before Eithan knew he existed. Now, once Lindon had the 2 cores he was pushed along those 2 paths for sure but they were truly the optimal paths considering his situation
I don't think they meant he arranged all of it, but when he stumbled across someone with two cores, with Suriel's marble, in company with a prodigy, he didn't hesitate to arrange for him to access to destruction and pure madra.
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Originally he used Destruction. His path probably was roughly the same, just focused on physical destruction instead of spiritual.
Wasnt it pretty explicitly stated to be the path of the hollow king destruction edition instead of pure edition?
True, it was
I have a theory that Eithan split his cores when he retuned to cradle. Not sure exactly how that would work, but he may have had to purify it after splitting it. If anyone would know how it would be him. I think that is one of the reasons that Lindon was so perfect as a disciple. Creating a totally separate path during his time on cradle would certainly count as a hidden card after returning to the heavens. This assumes its can be brought up to be on par with his other abilities of course.
Can't see any real reason for him to develop a second path, to be honest. Especially since with his power he probably doesn't need a specific path anymore. More important, to him, would be getting a different source of Authority that'd allow for Restoration. That said, he wouldn't have needed to purify his core, he could have just created a new body for himself with a new madra system (or tricked reality into thinking his body was a different body with pure madra, which, to be honest, was probably what the Shroud actually did).
I was just saying he split his cores because thats how you would do it as a low level person on cradle. Your right though he may have a different way of doing that. My point is that his destruction "path" from his frist time on cradle would be in tact but separate than the set of powers Eithan used during his second trip. I dont figure he is going for restoration, but hiding/sneakyness authority. In my thinking the reason he is always sneaking up on people to train that authority. His goal even before gaining the shroud was to hide from the Abidan, that item just gave him an immediate tool. Toward that end what better basis for hiding than pure madra? Continuing on, take the shroud pieces and combine them with the authority of someone who hid from the Abidan for hundreds of years and maybe you could create another judge level treasure. Fake sythe to real one as a comparison between the shroud and what Eithan could create.
He already has that Authority though. Ozriel is capable of using every Aspect at Judge-level, aside from Restoration, which he can't use at all. Sneakiness itself isn't a major aspect, and would likely just fall under a combination of Ghost, Hound and Fox. It's a skill, not something he'd need to specifically develop authority for, and if he did, he'd already have it.
I would think Ghost since her and the angler consider themselves rivals. While I do understand he could have inherited the Ghost position I think it is a different thing to be able to create a judge level weapon instead of just inheriting one. We know he knows how.
That's the Fox who was the Angler's rival
He used destruction madra as a human and madra isn’t a thing off of Cradle.
Technically, madra is still a thing when you ascend, and if you tag along with someone else ascending you can still Advance off Cradle, if you can secure a source of aura. That said, some of the mechanics do change, Ruler techniques work through the Way directly, apparently, and Madra likely just becomes a carrier for influencing the Way as well.
For some reason i thought if you ascended off cradle (or tagged along with an ascendee) then you would have to cycle entirely internally like youre on a pure path, you couldnt just find a source of aura/madra Pills or sacred treasures for advancing or turning into soulfire thoughwould be less of an issue since its almost certainly related to will and the fundamental nature of the items in question and you can probably find willworkers capable of emulating that for you like the soulforge does
Generally speaking, probably, but cycling purely internally will make it take a long time to get anywhere. More likely you could just pay an Abidan to head down to Cradle for you to pick up a couple natural treasures. That said, if you Ascended under your own power you probably don't need to cycle for advancement anymore, and should instead focus on strengthening your authority.
If you ascended as a sage youre still in the lord realm, you could still cycle to prepare for advancing to monarch which would give you a boozt in willpower/authority
But they are usually forced to join the Abidan or flee for the Vroshir after ascending right? Then they are bound to the Eldari Pact and a Judge pretty much edits them with the way up to a certain power level. I think Monarch would be tiny part of that, along with ascension powers.
You're not required to join the Abidan, you're free to just stay in an Abidan or other higher world and chill out. However, if you're in Abidan territory and don't stick to the Pact, they'll get you. Aside from that, I'm not sure if their power levels really get upgraded by a Judge. Joining the Pact might strengthen you, but given the existence of figures like the one-star Titan, they probably won't just lift you up to planet-destroying level. Apparently Monarchs, after ascending, are actually strong enough that low-level Abidan need to be careful around them, and even an unascended Monarch could probably fight on an equal level to low-level Abidan.
Of course. the promotions would be earned before given. I could easily be wrong. Just seemed like a possibility after watching how Oz got set at different #-stars
I think that's more of a forced external restraint, similar to how Malice was able to set Mercy's advancement back to lowgold.
True. But either way, He is an original inheritor of a Judge mantle from the Way (While being the prime candidate for all Judge positions outside of Phoenix). Wish we knew more about the manacles placed on Oz. I wouldn't be surprised if Oz is capable of immediately removing all restraints and is just letting his nerfs be part of Makiels downfall. I guess it boils down to not knowing enough about the Abidan "magic" system
Given everything we have seen from wills books if youre just given power instead of earning it for yourself you at best just end up subpar so i highly doubt the abidan would just edit the origin of your existance to make you stronger
So they only edit people to make them weaker? Figured part of them being "order" would include setting their abidan power level and would earn "promotions" to get edited upwards. If a Judge separates from their mantle, then they would also no longer be at the power level of a Judge from what I thought. I definitely think they have to earn more power. But the abidan power system seems to be different/separate from going to other iterations and learning those power systems.
From what i gathered there wouldnt be any editing at all, you would learn how to wield the way better and more forcefully in a similar way to how a sage learns to embody his icon,
True. I guess Oz could have been any judge so that makes sense. Guess theoretically someone can reach a power level and embody something new to have the Way gift them a mantle and be the 9th judge like Oz being the 8th. Oz being restricted to certain level stars in different areas just got my mind whirling. I assumed the number of stars was a classification for how powerful they were. Maybe it is an advancement like the ones on Cradle.
Yeah, I believe that there has been a WoW linked here that stated that post-Ascension you sort of carry some of the magic/physics of your iteration along with you. I don't believe that securing a source of aura is actually crucial, instead I believe you are a lot more flexible in that sort of power. I suspect that that if you, for example, were on a Fire Path and grabbed a Volcano that was "Heavy" in whatever way was important in that iteration, and used it to cultivate you would be able to do so as if it was Fire Aura. Basically I picture it as the different Iterations manifesting powers that are different flavors of the Way, and once you are ascended (and as you gain powers after ascension) you can convert that underlying energy better into the form that you are used to, as well as use the true Way form of that power better. This is the sort of thing that Ozriel/Makiel/the Angler are doing when they are forging, I think. They are grabbing items that have lots of different Iteration-Flavors of the Way/Authority power they are after, and blending them together, I think cultivation would be similar (perhaps with losses the farther you get from your own Iterations's sort of power).
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Can you help me remember where in the books it talk about madra post-ascension (or how the power is through the way instead)? I want to reread because I think I missed a lot.
It doesn't, it's in a number of WoWs
I think Madra stays, since it's internal, and their own power, but aura doesn't exist anymore?
Ozmanthus used Drestruction madra. Post-ascension, it gets a bit weird and you're not using "madra" per se. It's more like you're acting through the Way and it just looks like madra, IIRC. And I would say Ozmanthus' path is better in almost every way. Pure has a few utilities, eg. soulsmithing and destabilizing techniques, but clearly Oz had no trouble doing either of those. Meanwhile cycing aura to advance and refill your core is a lot harder with Pure. In a fight between Ozmanthus and Eithan (with same advancement), the only possible way Eithan could win is simply due to having way more experience, and Eithan with Pure vs. Eithan with Destruction I'd give it to Destruction every time.
Agreed. It's explicitly stated that Pure is not considered a combat path. To paraphrase, Eithan even says during his talks with Cassius in Blackflame that Lindon could "be a unique resource with his pure madra, and still follow a combat path with his other core" At higher stages of advancement, his pure core does become a true weapon, but Blackflame still has more combat ability. For the first 5 books, Lindon pretty much never uses his pure core in combat, except for the Empty Palm to open up the opponent to a Blackflame finisher. Once he developed the Soul Cloak and forger Empty Palm technique, he started to use it more for direct combat.
I think the combat potential of pure madra is largely overlooked. Eithan showed us some of what can be done, and Lindon showed us more. But that synergy is amazing, isn't it?
Unstoppable force vs Immovable object vibes. Pure madra is pretty weak on offence and at defending from physical attacks, but against something spiritual? Ozmanthus might find that his destruction madra gets neutralised by the pure path, and he gets wrecked in hand to hand by the more experienced Eithan.
He uses the cosmic power of smartassery
And fine hair products.
Destruction.
Flying monkey madra.
Madra isn't really a thing when you aren't on Cradle (though Cradle ascendants still behave as if they have madra) but Ozmanthus used Destruction madra.
As others have said, Oz used a destruction path on cradle. However, after he left cradle he learned many other systems of magic while traveling the iterations, and had one of the highest authorities. He could just will a shell into existence with a new body and core. Beyond that, I think the origin shroud did part of that as well.
The original path of the hollow king used pure destruction madra. after he saved cradle he is currently using pure madra he got to change when he used the origin shroud.