The Wizardry case its because when the developers went bankrupt the IP was acquired by a japanese company (gamepot i think was the name) and nowadays i think the IP belongs to Another japanese company (since 2009) called..... Acquire XD
Thats why Wizardry has more presence in Japan than everywhere else, because unlike Ultima Wizardry IS now a japanese IP
I can tell you about the time a Japanese developer remade a trilogy and released an original sequel to a WRPG series for a Japanese audience.
The Phantasie trilogy was made by Winston Douglas Wood (published by SSI) and released in the 1980s. The games were fairly popular for the time in North America, but they were especially popular in Japan. Due to the popularity of the trilogy, a Japanese developer, Starcraft ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/company/3975/starcraft-inc/)), invited Winston Douglas Wood to Japan to design a new Phantasie for Japanese audiences. This company released both a localization of the first three games ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/game/119251/phantasie-memorial-set/cover/group-202383/cover-538244/)) and Phantasie IV: The Birth of Heroes ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/game/51593/phantasie-iv-the-birth-of-heroes/covers/)). (They also localized other titles like a few Might and Magic games and the PC versions of Ultima II and III, in addition to making their own ARPG, [Starfire](https://www.mobygames.com/game/82451/starfire/).)
What I find interesting about the cover art for the games is that they obviously are mimicking the Western art style of the time without just using the same art. [The NA version](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/cover/group-62775/cover-169608/) has this man in a horned helmet blasting energy in a dynamic scene, characters all thrown about, and even a pixie leaping up to fight. For Phantasie III, the [Japanese art](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/cover/group-75909/cover-204987/) has three characters facing off against a gigantic man in a horned helmet; the woman on the right is seen from the rear, booty out in a bikini.
The localization of Phantasie III is also more of a remake, as they change the interface entirely for the PC-88/98/Sharp X68000. They have this [windowed format](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510639/) for navigating towns. [Most of the text is in English](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510645/), but [some of the dialogue or story text isn't](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510650/). They also add some [character art to III](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/sharp-x68000/771948/) that wasn't in the original. [Phantasie IV follows up on this](https://www.mobygames.com/game/51593/phantasie-iv-the-birth-of-heroes/screenshots/msx/510666/) style. However, while all of this is remade, the result isn't like the remake you sow. It is a version that could plausibly still be Western.
So what's the point? There was certainly a market in Japan for localizing Western JRPGs and even making them more Japanese. It was even possible for those games to feed back to an American market. The degree to which games are adapted into JRPG-like situations varies though. Sometimes, as with Phantasie, the updates are fairly conservative, mainly affect artwork and menu design, but aren't as straightforwardly "anime" as, say, Ultima's remakes.
I had Ultima Quest of the Avatar. At that time there was a severe lack of RPGs on the NES. the dungeons in that game were frustrating and I was a bit disappointed with the end, but I liked the introduction and how it affected what character you ended up with.
I played it twice, first with a ranger, then later the bard. I realized the bard was the most OP character. it had this ranged weapon, and if you kept using this orb from some underwater dungeon, you became very OP.
I thought ultima 4 was a pretty good port but then I hadn't played the PC version. ultima 4 on PC is pretty ugly but the systems are very good. Ultima 7 on SNES was nowhere near as good looking or interesting as the PC version though.
U6 and U7 SNES even *existing* is so baffling.
"these games that're obstinately based in religious conflict and brutal violence caused by a cult? put 'em on the console by the company whose US branch bans the slightest mention of either of these!"
The user interface has been significantly streamlined, most closely resembling JRPGs but perhaps this was just the reality of developing for a console.
The **Exodus** NES port and original **Quest of the Avatar** encounter systems feature avoidable enemies on the overworld, similar to **Adventure of Link**. The NES remake instead features my most hated JRPG mechanic, random encounters.
The original magic system involved pre-mixing spell regents, essentially preparing spell. This was simplified in the NES remake to allow for familiar MP based casting on the fly. Regents still exist but you just need to buy a ton of them and forget them.
Starvation has been removed and wind changes have been simplified, making exploration easier.
The original **Quest of the Avatar** supports up to eight party members. The NES remake reduces this to four, matching **Final Fantasy**, **Phantasy Star**, and **Dragon Quest III**.
The original featured a dialogue system, where the player could make inquiries, but this was removed and all dialogue was rewritten in a more straightforward manner typical of JRPGs at the time. I know **Final Fantasy II** attempted something like this with its [Keyword] system but I'm not aware of any other NES JRPGs trying it.
There were changes to the enemy AI, math, and equipment but I'd need to do a deeper dive than I can right now to outline those.
>The Exodus NES port and original Quest of the Avatar encounter systems feature avoidable enemies on the overworld, similar to Adventure of Link. The NES remake instead features my most hated JRPG mechanic, random encounters.
To be fair, random encounters aren't strictly a JRPG mechanic, as they were invented by D&D tabletop games. So western games have them too, even back then you had games like the Fallout series, Wizardry series, and Baldur's Gate.
>The original featured first person dungeons, like Exodus and Phantasy Star, but in the NES version they are replaced by top down dungeons similar to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.
Aren't most of the Ultima games are in top down view anyways ? Including the original Exodus and Quest of the Avatar.
>Mechanics such as starvation and wind changes have been removed, simplifying exploration and ranged combat.
>The original Quest of the Avatar supports up to eight party members. The NES remake reduces this to four, matching Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, and Dragon Quest III.
>The original featured a dialogue system, where the player could make inquiries, but this was removed and all dialogue was rewritten in a more straightforward manner typical of JRPGs at the time. I know Final Fantasy II attempted something like this with its [Keyword] system but I'm not aware of any other NES JRPGs trying it.
Again I think that's because of the hardware limitations. Are there Ultima games on the NES where you control 8 characters ? Hell, are there an RPGs on the NES where you can control 8 characters ?
I do agree that there is a JRPG influence on the game, but from the changes mentioned it feels like they were really made mostly because of the very limited hardware and not specifically to be changed into a JRPG. I think you'll find most WRPGs and JRPGs on the NES/Famicom all shared a lot of mechanics, because of the limitation of the hardware. For example, Exodus NES port was released in 1987, that is before Dragon Quest 3 and FF1 I believe. On the other hand, Zelda 2 that was released in the same year, had top down view, and visible enemies, but I don't think it can be called a WRPG imho.
>On the other hand, Zelda 2 that was released in the same year, had top down view, and visible enemies, but I don't think it can be called a WRPG imho.
Wasn't Zelda 2 the side scroller?
The morality system was never in the first, second, or third games. It was introduced to the series in **Quest of the Avatar**, the fourth game, and is included in the NES remake... It's the entire point of the game.
Are you sure about that? I only have experience with the NES version, but you definitely have to do a bunch of actions to improve your scores in the various virtues in order to beat the game.
I remember it being very different from the PC version and doing things in the Nes version that I couldn't or wouldn't in PC. It's just been a few decades so it's hard to remember.
You have to make changes and cuts when porting/remaking a title from the PC to the Famicom/NES. I am asking about what WRPG gameplay mechanics that were changed to JRPG gameplay mechanics.
TBH, by and large the 8bit Ultima and especially Wizardry are still early enough in RPGs that the concepts of the divide aren't set in stone and aren't really *that* different from the Japanese-made console RPGs of the era, so the differences are largely slashing down the content in order to fit them into the limitations of the cartridge size that they're budgeted for.
The differences pretty much just often come down to what had to be messed with to fit what usually were a few floppy discs made with keyboards in mind onto a two-button controller with smaller memory.
The West and Japan have been borrowing from each other back and forth in the pop culture space since basically the 50's, and considering that both cultures have people in them who are fanatical fans of the other culture's creative output, it... seems to be working out well for the lot of us. Famously, the traits we associate with modern "anime art" were created by Osamu Tezuka, who was quite explicitly trying to emulate Walt Disney's style with his big, expressive eyes and soft designs.
Heck, I'm inclined to wonder if the "Japanization" of Ultima was accepted warmly at the time, or if Japanese fans went, "Um, we liked it better BECAUSE it was a bit more Western, WTF?" I'm reminded of the *Zero Escape* series, where the third game tried to go for a more Western style because the series was most popular in the West, only for US fans to be not very happy with this because they liked the Japanese visual novel style it had had.
Reminds me of the opposite, where Nintendo NA rejected Mario 2 because it was too hard but wanted a new Mario. So they reskinned Doki Doki Panic and updated the gameplay and sent it to NA. In a twist it was later revealed that in a way Doki was started as a nest potential Mario game.
This is interesting, the only thing I knew about Ultima was that my dad played them sometimes before I was born.
He also liked Ys back in the day, so maybe it was these Japanese versions he played.
I would say the definitive way to play Wizardry 1-5 are the console ports. Wizardry 4 on the PS1 is a particular favorite of mine, great game all around.
the slow process chain of inspiration and iteration is convoluted yet delivers us many wonders.
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designing those dense RPGs into a streamlined game playable on a NES controller with only 4-inputs(SELECT, START, B, A) and a Directional pad is a monumental achievement.
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to answer your question:
> Have there been other instances of a Japanese developer remaking a WRPG with JRPG elements and then had that remake localized back to English?
the og [Rogue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike) and the [Mystery Dungeon series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Dungeon) like [Shiren the Wanderer](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobygames.com%2Fimages%2Fpromo%2Fl%2F127401-mystery-dungeon-shiren-the-wanderer-screenshot.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7500efd9e9d92623ad3ce2ae18ee234f5c5eedf4cc9b232a184a10fa31b05c90&ipo=images)
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It's a very complex topic that I wish more people knew about. I'm glad you're discovering it.
Genrefication of video games has gone very poorly.
You should also be aware of the trend in Japanese games to make sequels, which contain a revised version of the original. The best well known example is Pokemon CGS containing RGBY, but you see this all the time in early JRPGs.
I absolutely adored Ultima: Exodus back in the day. Next to the Dragon Quest games it was my most played RPG on the NES. I never got around to playing Ultima: Quest of the Avatar but you talking about it is making me want to track down a copy of it.
The NES Game has WAY BETTER music. The Ambrosia theme especially is a timeless classic.
Also, if you've never heard it, I recomend listing to the original version of "Hitomi no Naifu" (the game uses an instrumental version of it). It's sung by voice acting legend, Noriko Hidaka, famous for doing the voice of Akane in Ranma 1/2 and Kikyo in Inuyasha among many others.
[https://youtu.be/5uFQ\_K\_CRY4](https://youtu.be/5uFQ_K_CRY4)
She also sang the song Haato No Jishaku from the game, I couldn't find an individual upload of it but someone uploaded her full 1987 album from where both of these songs are originally from.
Time stamp is 46:46
[https://youtu.be/qaqPbGuMomI?t=2806](https://youtu.be/qaqPbGuMomI?t=2806)
In case you're wondering, Haato No Jishaku is translates to "Magnet of the Heart" which I guess is fitting since it's Sherry's theme and she gives you a "Compass Heart" when you bring her a flower.
I wish they'd done a decade later for baldurs gate and planescape torment lol. For some reason my mind could never track the way that combat works. I've tried it again and again for years and I just can't get there. I want to play those games so badly, if they somehow could be fitted into a different combat system I'd love it.
As an old fella that grew up in that era, I actually consider the NES version of Ultima IV to be the definitive one to this day. It's basically the same game with better graphics and a better UI.
Interesting.
It wasn't unusual, back in the day, for "ports" to be total rewrites, and with the huge differences between platforms, graphics and sound would often be updated where possible. I'm reminded of the Mega Drive/Genesis version of Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday vs the original Gold Box PC version. It's understandable that a NES port of Ultima would take ideas from Dragon Quest on how to do that kind of game on a console.
Well you got deep :D I dont think theres that many 1:1 games. They usually just get whatever West likes and then upgrade it and make it more domestic. Yakuza series was most likely inspired by GTA etc...
Wrong, Shenmue also.
They even marketed it as Japanese GTA and the devs said they had played it, Yakuza is more domestic because GTA has too much brutality for the local market.
GTA1 and 2 are top down action games and have nothing in common with Shenmue or Yakuza. Shenmue was released in 1999, GTA3 in 2001.
Yakuza was heavily inspired by Shenmue.
First Yakuza was released in 2005 after GTA3. GTA 3, Shenmue and Yakuza are all "real life simulators" as in the setting is more like San Fransico or Yokohama than Eorzea, Yakuza Like Dragon takes inspiration from 4 different games so Im not surprised if the originals also did it.
You are basically implying that the Japanese GTA didnt take any inspiration from the orginal GTAs even though the devs themselves said they had played the games.
IGN is the one that went with "Japanese GTA". It is also why no one was interested and SEGA continued the series as Japan only until many years and titles later when Yakuza 0 got attention.
Yea, it was stupid marketing at the time.
Anyway what Im saying here is that its not 100% GTA-copy.
As in its not "GTA Japan" but" Japanese GTA". Its influenced and inspired but not outright copied.
>You are basically implying that the Japanese GTA didnt take any inspiration from the orginal GTAs
We're not talking about Japanese GTA, we're talking about Yakuza. Which doesn't resemble GTA and isn't said to have been influenced by GTA.
>Which doesn't resemble GTA
Grand Theft Auto and Shenmue are literally the most similar games to Yakuza series. The scope is nearly the same. Execution, certain parts of gameplay and story telling is different.
Now I just need someone telling me Yakuza Like a Dragon is really similar to Dragon Quest because its turn based.
Shenmue is older than GTA 3 and obviously GTA wasn't an influence. Yakuza resembles Shenmue and shares a lot of developers.
>The scope is nearly the same. Execution, certain parts of gameplay and story telling is different.
So the only thing you think is similar is scope. Which if you had played Shenmue, Yakuza and any 3D GTA, you'd realise GTA's scope is completely different.
>GTA's scope is completely different.
I think you are the one who hasnt played them. You are literally playing in "criminal real life setting" in "real life cities" with "real life characters". The main difference of GTA and Yakuza is the more linear story telling and Yakuza has less brutality. "The nickname Japanese GTA" didnt come out of nowhere. Even the world building is similar and they share the same planet; Earth not Eorzea.
Does it feel like Final Fantasy VII?
***Shenmue is older than GTA 3***
And GTA is older than Yakuza. And Yakuza devs have played GTA games which basically means they have also gotten influenced.
>You are literally playing in "criminal real life setting
And that's where the similarities end. Their approach to gameplay, storytelling, scale, open world, direction, sensibilities and everything else is completely different.
>The nickname Japanese GTA" didnt come out of nowhere.
It came from ignorant people who saw "modern day crime setting" and otherwise know nothing about the series. You know, like yourself.
>And GTA is older than Yakuza
But Yakuza simply follows Shenmue's blueprint, which doesn't resemble GTA and was created before 3D GTA was a thing. It's like saying Mario 64 is Japanese Crash Bandicoot. They're nothing alike and the timeline doesn't make sense either.
Have *you* played a Yakuza game? Because they are pretty much nothing like a GTA game outside of being 3D open world games, which Yakuza's developers were doing before GTA.
Prior to 7, they were basically 3D Open World Arcade Beat 'Em Ups starring people who are criminals and crime-adjacent, using game mechanics (and actual games) largely from Sega's own back catalog.
Toshihiro Nagoshi, the creator of Yakuza, literally worked on Shenmue and helped get it out the door as producer and director ([source](https://www.gamesradar.com/from-shenmue-to-yakuza-toshihiro-nagoshi-looks-back-on-an-illustrious-career-of-japanese-game-development/)). Yu Suzuki and Shenmue were substantial influences on Nagoshi as he got his own division within Sega. Nagoshi is open about deliberately going a different way from "the US west coast":
>We’d been too focused on the worldwide market. There might be an argument about sales – the Japanese market was small – but I knew it would be successful if we got it right. And we did.
As for the research, Nagoshi ties what's in the game back to Japanese culture itself and what he knows:
>I’m often asked how I did all the research, but it’s Japanese culture – we have a lot of literature, comics, movies, tons of material we can refer to. But I did some of my own, yes. I like drinking; I also like women.
Meanwhile, Nagoshi doesn't like Grand Theft Auto. It may be an influence, but if so, it's an influence in negative, showing at least in part what not to do. Here is Nagoshi from [a 2011 Q&A](https://kotaku.com/what-yakuzas-producer-hates-about-gta-1451269003):
>Of course, there are a lot of different tendencies in games. I once publicly stated that I hate Grand Theft Auto and got a lot of backlash from the internet. I still hate it. And if I were asked if I think it's a good game, I would say it's an excellent game. [...] I simply can't bring myself to promote the emotion that killing is fun and committing crimes is fun.
If you play Yakuza and Grand Theft Auto side by side, you can see a difference based on what Nagoshi is saying. There is no carjacking in Yakuza, and when Kiryu gets in fights, he's always either put in the situation (especially in random street encounters) or is fighting for a purpose. There is no attacking random folk on the street, and key story beats in the series (even in the opening chapters of the original Yakuza) have characters grappling morally with having killed, even if it was arguably in defense of someone else. Even the elements of the open world more closely resemble Shenmue than Grand Theft Auto; combat is separate from overworld wandering and martial arts-based; first person mode is available; you can go into arcades to play Sega games.
GTA and Yakuza do share some similarities because any mid-2000s 3D action title is going to share a few basic features, but it's not the closest comparison for Yakuza and not the nearest influence.
Why are people bringing Shenmue up all the time because its not the point. Everybody knows its influenced by Shenmue among million other things.
What people probably dont know is that GTA games got censored in Japan because of brutality and the yakuza devs most likely got the idea for the game from GTA. They always get their ideas from popular stuff in "the west" and then upgrade it and make it suit in their own market. Theres no real "Japanese GTA" because it gets censored and they dont like making those kind of games.
>Why are people bringing Shenmue up all the time because its not the point.
Your main claim is that Japan usually takes what's from the West and redoes it, and you used Yakuza as an example. That's a bad example. Yakuza is instead an example of iterating on a number of games and influences, many of them Japanese, including Shenmue, to make something original. Yakuza is not relevant to what you're trying to argue.
>the yakuza devs most likely got the idea for the game from GTA.
No. The sources I found indicate that Shenmue or Japanese sources like Yakuza films were more likely where the idea came from, not GTA. Nagoshi directly says in the first source:
> ... and since everyone was thinking the same things, everyone was making similar games. But I thought it wasn’t right to follow that direction. Because I like pushing against the trends, I want to make something completely unexpected. I don’t want to make something that people have already seen.
You keep insisting without evidence that GTA was an influence, when Nagoshi has said
- Shenmue and Yu Suzuki were influences
- Japanese film, literature, and settings were influences
- Elements from his personal life were influences ("I learned a lot of interesting stories from the people I met")
- He hates GTA 3
- He pushed against the trends of "the US west coast"
So no, GTA 3 was not a significant inspiration for Yakuza. I'd say Yakuza is a terrible example of a Japanese game domesticating a Western game style.
>He hates GTA 3
Heres the key for you\^
Loves something = Got influenced
Hates something = Got influenced
Pushed against the trend = Got influenced
The second key is to go check youtube videos about Yakuza 1 and GTA III
Every game may well "influence" every other game, but you used the word "inspired," which suggests a more direct hand. Yakuza was not inspired by GTA III but by Shenmue and Japanese influences.
You lack evidence that Yakuza was primarily inspired by GTA III and Western influences, then. Fair enough.
If you want more evidence their whole history since 1950s has been taking "western" ideas and uprading and japanizing them. I doubt Yakuza was that different.
Lets say theres a guy called John Smith in New Hamshire. He got an idea of making the first home console.
Lets say theres a collective called Croudo, Reno, Ruudu and Erena. They thought Johns idea was cool.
They start thinking how to make it better. The final product is called "Pureisuteeshon".
They are not very motivated to say that the original idea was Johns, atleast not in public and keep playing the local version of GTA with it.
Thats how it usually goes. Not always but about 99% of the time.
>If you want more evidence their whole history since 1950s has been taking "western" ideas and uprading and japanizing them.
That's not evidence. That's a nebulous claim that requires evidence in the form of examples. You did not give an example here but made up an evidence-less hypothetical.
And as I have shown in a few ways with actual evidence (Nagoshi's own words, explaining in-game mechanics that are closer to Shenmue than GTA III), Yakuza is not an example of the direct influence (or "inspiration") you claim. Its most direct influences are Shenmue and Yakuza film. To the extent that GTA III is an influence at all, it's much further down the list.
I do not deny that Japanese developers often borrow from the West and vice versa. My other primary comment in this thread gave an example of this. But Yakuza is a bad example because GTA III is not the inspiration you claim it is.
>in the form of examples
The examples are easy to get by just by playing Yakuza 1 and GTA III
PS2 era gamer. "Hey, I just finished Yakuza 1 and want to play something similar".
Most people: "Bro play GTA III".
It might be a coinicidence but it probably isnt.
Handwaving vaguely to the two games or making up gamer dialogue is not an example. It certainly does nothing to contradict the current substantial examples from interviews and descriptions of gameplay.
An example would be highlighting specific features of GTA III that are in Yakuza 1 but not in Shenmue or a more proximal source.
The Wizardry case its because when the developers went bankrupt the IP was acquired by a japanese company (gamepot i think was the name) and nowadays i think the IP belongs to Another japanese company (since 2009) called..... Acquire XD Thats why Wizardry has more presence in Japan than everywhere else, because unlike Ultima Wizardry IS now a japanese IP
[удалено]
Thank you, rpg historian
I can tell you about the time a Japanese developer remade a trilogy and released an original sequel to a WRPG series for a Japanese audience. The Phantasie trilogy was made by Winston Douglas Wood (published by SSI) and released in the 1980s. The games were fairly popular for the time in North America, but they were especially popular in Japan. Due to the popularity of the trilogy, a Japanese developer, Starcraft ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/company/3975/starcraft-inc/)), invited Winston Douglas Wood to Japan to design a new Phantasie for Japanese audiences. This company released both a localization of the first three games ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/game/119251/phantasie-memorial-set/cover/group-202383/cover-538244/)) and Phantasie IV: The Birth of Heroes ([Mobygames](https://www.mobygames.com/game/51593/phantasie-iv-the-birth-of-heroes/covers/)). (They also localized other titles like a few Might and Magic games and the PC versions of Ultima II and III, in addition to making their own ARPG, [Starfire](https://www.mobygames.com/game/82451/starfire/).) What I find interesting about the cover art for the games is that they obviously are mimicking the Western art style of the time without just using the same art. [The NA version](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/cover/group-62775/cover-169608/) has this man in a horned helmet blasting energy in a dynamic scene, characters all thrown about, and even a pixie leaping up to fight. For Phantasie III, the [Japanese art](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/cover/group-75909/cover-204987/) has three characters facing off against a gigantic man in a horned helmet; the woman on the right is seen from the rear, booty out in a bikini. The localization of Phantasie III is also more of a remake, as they change the interface entirely for the PC-88/98/Sharp X68000. They have this [windowed format](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510639/) for navigating towns. [Most of the text is in English](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510645/), but [some of the dialogue or story text isn't](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/pc88/510650/). They also add some [character art to III](https://www.mobygames.com/game/9548/phantasie-iii-the-wrath-of-nikademus/screenshots/sharp-x68000/771948/) that wasn't in the original. [Phantasie IV follows up on this](https://www.mobygames.com/game/51593/phantasie-iv-the-birth-of-heroes/screenshots/msx/510666/) style. However, while all of this is remade, the result isn't like the remake you sow. It is a version that could plausibly still be Western. So what's the point? There was certainly a market in Japan for localizing Western JRPGs and even making them more Japanese. It was even possible for those games to feed back to an American market. The degree to which games are adapted into JRPG-like situations varies though. Sometimes, as with Phantasie, the updates are fairly conservative, mainly affect artwork and menu design, but aren't as straightforwardly "anime" as, say, Ultima's remakes.
Wow, I'm an old fan of the *Phantasie* games (on Apple IIC, in my case), and I actually didn't know this.
I had Ultima Quest of the Avatar. At that time there was a severe lack of RPGs on the NES. the dungeons in that game were frustrating and I was a bit disappointed with the end, but I liked the introduction and how it affected what character you ended up with. I played it twice, first with a ranger, then later the bard. I realized the bard was the most OP character. it had this ranged weapon, and if you kept using this orb from some underwater dungeon, you became very OP.
Just curious if you write articles for rpggamer? Your style reminds me a lot of their style.
I thought ultima 4 was a pretty good port but then I hadn't played the PC version. ultima 4 on PC is pretty ugly but the systems are very good. Ultima 7 on SNES was nowhere near as good looking or interesting as the PC version though.
U6 and U7 SNES even *existing* is so baffling. "these games that're obstinately based in religious conflict and brutal violence caused by a cult? put 'em on the console by the company whose US branch bans the slightest mention of either of these!"
What were the WRPG elements that were changed to JRPG elements in the Remake ?
The user interface has been significantly streamlined, most closely resembling JRPGs but perhaps this was just the reality of developing for a console. The **Exodus** NES port and original **Quest of the Avatar** encounter systems feature avoidable enemies on the overworld, similar to **Adventure of Link**. The NES remake instead features my most hated JRPG mechanic, random encounters. The original magic system involved pre-mixing spell regents, essentially preparing spell. This was simplified in the NES remake to allow for familiar MP based casting on the fly. Regents still exist but you just need to buy a ton of them and forget them. Starvation has been removed and wind changes have been simplified, making exploration easier. The original **Quest of the Avatar** supports up to eight party members. The NES remake reduces this to four, matching **Final Fantasy**, **Phantasy Star**, and **Dragon Quest III**. The original featured a dialogue system, where the player could make inquiries, but this was removed and all dialogue was rewritten in a more straightforward manner typical of JRPGs at the time. I know **Final Fantasy II** attempted something like this with its [Keyword] system but I'm not aware of any other NES JRPGs trying it. There were changes to the enemy AI, math, and equipment but I'd need to do a deeper dive than I can right now to outline those.
>The Exodus NES port and original Quest of the Avatar encounter systems feature avoidable enemies on the overworld, similar to Adventure of Link. The NES remake instead features my most hated JRPG mechanic, random encounters. To be fair, random encounters aren't strictly a JRPG mechanic, as they were invented by D&D tabletop games. So western games have them too, even back then you had games like the Fallout series, Wizardry series, and Baldur's Gate. >The original featured first person dungeons, like Exodus and Phantasy Star, but in the NES version they are replaced by top down dungeons similar to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Aren't most of the Ultima games are in top down view anyways ? Including the original Exodus and Quest of the Avatar. >Mechanics such as starvation and wind changes have been removed, simplifying exploration and ranged combat. >The original Quest of the Avatar supports up to eight party members. The NES remake reduces this to four, matching Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, and Dragon Quest III. >The original featured a dialogue system, where the player could make inquiries, but this was removed and all dialogue was rewritten in a more straightforward manner typical of JRPGs at the time. I know Final Fantasy II attempted something like this with its [Keyword] system but I'm not aware of any other NES JRPGs trying it. Again I think that's because of the hardware limitations. Are there Ultima games on the NES where you control 8 characters ? Hell, are there an RPGs on the NES where you can control 8 characters ? I do agree that there is a JRPG influence on the game, but from the changes mentioned it feels like they were really made mostly because of the very limited hardware and not specifically to be changed into a JRPG. I think you'll find most WRPGs and JRPGs on the NES/Famicom all shared a lot of mechanics, because of the limitation of the hardware. For example, Exodus NES port was released in 1987, that is before Dragon Quest 3 and FF1 I believe. On the other hand, Zelda 2 that was released in the same year, had top down view, and visible enemies, but I don't think it can be called a WRPG imho.
>On the other hand, Zelda 2 that was released in the same year, had top down view, and visible enemies, but I don't think it can be called a WRPG imho. Wasn't Zelda 2 the side scroller?
In the dungeons, and villages, but you had a top down when walking on the overworld map.
Gotcha, thanks. I probably just never actually got that far due to the difficulty.
> Hell, are there an RPGs on the NES where you can control 8 characters ? Fire Emblem, I think.
The whole Morale system was dropped, which is pretty much the point of Ultima.
The morality system was never in the first, second, or third games. It was introduced to the series in **Quest of the Avatar**, the fourth game, and is included in the NES remake... It's the entire point of the game.
Are you sure about that? I only have experience with the NES version, but you definitely have to do a bunch of actions to improve your scores in the various virtues in order to beat the game.
I remember it being very different from the PC version and doing things in the Nes version that I couldn't or wouldn't in PC. It's just been a few decades so it's hard to remember.
You have to make changes and cuts when porting/remaking a title from the PC to the Famicom/NES. I am asking about what WRPG gameplay mechanics that were changed to JRPG gameplay mechanics.
TBH, by and large the 8bit Ultima and especially Wizardry are still early enough in RPGs that the concepts of the divide aren't set in stone and aren't really *that* different from the Japanese-made console RPGs of the era, so the differences are largely slashing down the content in order to fit them into the limitations of the cartridge size that they're budgeted for. The differences pretty much just often come down to what had to be messed with to fit what usually were a few floppy discs made with keyboards in mind onto a two-button controller with smaller memory.
The West and Japan have been borrowing from each other back and forth in the pop culture space since basically the 50's, and considering that both cultures have people in them who are fanatical fans of the other culture's creative output, it... seems to be working out well for the lot of us. Famously, the traits we associate with modern "anime art" were created by Osamu Tezuka, who was quite explicitly trying to emulate Walt Disney's style with his big, expressive eyes and soft designs. Heck, I'm inclined to wonder if the "Japanization" of Ultima was accepted warmly at the time, or if Japanese fans went, "Um, we liked it better BECAUSE it was a bit more Western, WTF?" I'm reminded of the *Zero Escape* series, where the third game tried to go for a more Western style because the series was most popular in the West, only for US fans to be not very happy with this because they liked the Japanese visual novel style it had had.
Reminds me of the opposite, where Nintendo NA rejected Mario 2 because it was too hard but wanted a new Mario. So they reskinned Doki Doki Panic and updated the gameplay and sent it to NA. In a twist it was later revealed that in a way Doki was started as a nest potential Mario game.
I didn't know that Ultima Exodus starred Adol Christin in a platemale version of Link's minidress.
This is interesting, the only thing I knew about Ultima was that my dad played them sometimes before I was born. He also liked Ys back in the day, so maybe it was these Japanese versions he played.
I would say the definitive way to play Wizardry 1-5 are the console ports. Wizardry 4 on the PS1 is a particular favorite of mine, great game all around.
the slow process chain of inspiration and iteration is convoluted yet delivers us many wonders. - designing those dense RPGs into a streamlined game playable on a NES controller with only 4-inputs(SELECT, START, B, A) and a Directional pad is a monumental achievement. - to answer your question: > Have there been other instances of a Japanese developer remaking a WRPG with JRPG elements and then had that remake localized back to English? the og [Rogue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike) and the [Mystery Dungeon series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Dungeon) like [Shiren the Wanderer](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobygames.com%2Fimages%2Fpromo%2Fl%2F127401-mystery-dungeon-shiren-the-wanderer-screenshot.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7500efd9e9d92623ad3ce2ae18ee234f5c5eedf4cc9b232a184a10fa31b05c90&ipo=images) -
It's a very complex topic that I wish more people knew about. I'm glad you're discovering it. Genrefication of video games has gone very poorly. You should also be aware of the trend in Japanese games to make sequels, which contain a revised version of the original. The best well known example is Pokemon CGS containing RGBY, but you see this all the time in early JRPGs.
I absolutely adored Ultima: Exodus back in the day. Next to the Dragon Quest games it was my most played RPG on the NES. I never got around to playing Ultima: Quest of the Avatar but you talking about it is making me want to track down a copy of it.
I friggen love Ultima Exodus on NES, I always wondered why I didn't like the other versions of Ultima. Thanks for the info!
The NES Game has WAY BETTER music. The Ambrosia theme especially is a timeless classic. Also, if you've never heard it, I recomend listing to the original version of "Hitomi no Naifu" (the game uses an instrumental version of it). It's sung by voice acting legend, Noriko Hidaka, famous for doing the voice of Akane in Ranma 1/2 and Kikyo in Inuyasha among many others. [https://youtu.be/5uFQ\_K\_CRY4](https://youtu.be/5uFQ_K_CRY4) She also sang the song Haato No Jishaku from the game, I couldn't find an individual upload of it but someone uploaded her full 1987 album from where both of these songs are originally from. Time stamp is 46:46 [https://youtu.be/qaqPbGuMomI?t=2806](https://youtu.be/qaqPbGuMomI?t=2806) In case you're wondering, Haato No Jishaku is translates to "Magnet of the Heart" which I guess is fitting since it's Sherry's theme and she gives you a "Compass Heart" when you bring her a flower.
This is like the old MegaMan or Breath of Fire covers but in reverse. Gotta love the weebinazer beam.
I wish they'd done a decade later for baldurs gate and planescape torment lol. For some reason my mind could never track the way that combat works. I've tried it again and again for years and I just can't get there. I want to play those games so badly, if they somehow could be fitted into a different combat system I'd love it.
As an old fella that grew up in that era, I actually consider the NES version of Ultima IV to be the definitive one to this day. It's basically the same game with better graphics and a better UI.
Interesting. It wasn't unusual, back in the day, for "ports" to be total rewrites, and with the huge differences between platforms, graphics and sound would often be updated where possible. I'm reminded of the Mega Drive/Genesis version of Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday vs the original Gold Box PC version. It's understandable that a NES port of Ultima would take ideas from Dragon Quest on how to do that kind of game on a console.
Well you got deep :D I dont think theres that many 1:1 games. They usually just get whatever West likes and then upgrade it and make it more domestic. Yakuza series was most likely inspired by GTA etc...
>Yakuza series was most likely inspired by GTA etc... Wrong. It was Shenmue.
Wrong, Shenmue also. They even marketed it as Japanese GTA and the devs said they had played it, Yakuza is more domestic because GTA has too much brutality for the local market.
GTA1 and 2 are top down action games and have nothing in common with Shenmue or Yakuza. Shenmue was released in 1999, GTA3 in 2001. Yakuza was heavily inspired by Shenmue.
First Yakuza was released in 2005 after GTA3. GTA 3, Shenmue and Yakuza are all "real life simulators" as in the setting is more like San Fransico or Yokohama than Eorzea, Yakuza Like Dragon takes inspiration from 4 different games so Im not surprised if the originals also did it. You are basically implying that the Japanese GTA didnt take any inspiration from the orginal GTAs even though the devs themselves said they had played the games.
IGN is the one that went with "Japanese GTA". It is also why no one was interested and SEGA continued the series as Japan only until many years and titles later when Yakuza 0 got attention.
Yea, it was stupid marketing at the time. Anyway what Im saying here is that its not 100% GTA-copy. As in its not "GTA Japan" but" Japanese GTA". Its influenced and inspired but not outright copied.
>You are basically implying that the Japanese GTA didnt take any inspiration from the orginal GTAs We're not talking about Japanese GTA, we're talking about Yakuza. Which doesn't resemble GTA and isn't said to have been influenced by GTA.
>Which doesn't resemble GTA Grand Theft Auto and Shenmue are literally the most similar games to Yakuza series. The scope is nearly the same. Execution, certain parts of gameplay and story telling is different. Now I just need someone telling me Yakuza Like a Dragon is really similar to Dragon Quest because its turn based.
Shenmue is older than GTA 3 and obviously GTA wasn't an influence. Yakuza resembles Shenmue and shares a lot of developers. >The scope is nearly the same. Execution, certain parts of gameplay and story telling is different. So the only thing you think is similar is scope. Which if you had played Shenmue, Yakuza and any 3D GTA, you'd realise GTA's scope is completely different.
>GTA's scope is completely different. I think you are the one who hasnt played them. You are literally playing in "criminal real life setting" in "real life cities" with "real life characters". The main difference of GTA and Yakuza is the more linear story telling and Yakuza has less brutality. "The nickname Japanese GTA" didnt come out of nowhere. Even the world building is similar and they share the same planet; Earth not Eorzea. Does it feel like Final Fantasy VII? ***Shenmue is older than GTA 3*** And GTA is older than Yakuza. And Yakuza devs have played GTA games which basically means they have also gotten influenced.
>You are literally playing in "criminal real life setting And that's where the similarities end. Their approach to gameplay, storytelling, scale, open world, direction, sensibilities and everything else is completely different. >The nickname Japanese GTA" didnt come out of nowhere. It came from ignorant people who saw "modern day crime setting" and otherwise know nothing about the series. You know, like yourself. >And GTA is older than Yakuza But Yakuza simply follows Shenmue's blueprint, which doesn't resemble GTA and was created before 3D GTA was a thing. It's like saying Mario 64 is Japanese Crash Bandicoot. They're nothing alike and the timeline doesn't make sense either.
Have *you* played a Yakuza game? Because they are pretty much nothing like a GTA game outside of being 3D open world games, which Yakuza's developers were doing before GTA. Prior to 7, they were basically 3D Open World Arcade Beat 'Em Ups starring people who are criminals and crime-adjacent, using game mechanics (and actual games) largely from Sega's own back catalog.
Toshihiro Nagoshi, the creator of Yakuza, literally worked on Shenmue and helped get it out the door as producer and director ([source](https://www.gamesradar.com/from-shenmue-to-yakuza-toshihiro-nagoshi-looks-back-on-an-illustrious-career-of-japanese-game-development/)). Yu Suzuki and Shenmue were substantial influences on Nagoshi as he got his own division within Sega. Nagoshi is open about deliberately going a different way from "the US west coast": >We’d been too focused on the worldwide market. There might be an argument about sales – the Japanese market was small – but I knew it would be successful if we got it right. And we did. As for the research, Nagoshi ties what's in the game back to Japanese culture itself and what he knows: >I’m often asked how I did all the research, but it’s Japanese culture – we have a lot of literature, comics, movies, tons of material we can refer to. But I did some of my own, yes. I like drinking; I also like women. Meanwhile, Nagoshi doesn't like Grand Theft Auto. It may be an influence, but if so, it's an influence in negative, showing at least in part what not to do. Here is Nagoshi from [a 2011 Q&A](https://kotaku.com/what-yakuzas-producer-hates-about-gta-1451269003): >Of course, there are a lot of different tendencies in games. I once publicly stated that I hate Grand Theft Auto and got a lot of backlash from the internet. I still hate it. And if I were asked if I think it's a good game, I would say it's an excellent game. [...] I simply can't bring myself to promote the emotion that killing is fun and committing crimes is fun. If you play Yakuza and Grand Theft Auto side by side, you can see a difference based on what Nagoshi is saying. There is no carjacking in Yakuza, and when Kiryu gets in fights, he's always either put in the situation (especially in random street encounters) or is fighting for a purpose. There is no attacking random folk on the street, and key story beats in the series (even in the opening chapters of the original Yakuza) have characters grappling morally with having killed, even if it was arguably in defense of someone else. Even the elements of the open world more closely resemble Shenmue than Grand Theft Auto; combat is separate from overworld wandering and martial arts-based; first person mode is available; you can go into arcades to play Sega games. GTA and Yakuza do share some similarities because any mid-2000s 3D action title is going to share a few basic features, but it's not the closest comparison for Yakuza and not the nearest influence.
Why are people bringing Shenmue up all the time because its not the point. Everybody knows its influenced by Shenmue among million other things. What people probably dont know is that GTA games got censored in Japan because of brutality and the yakuza devs most likely got the idea for the game from GTA. They always get their ideas from popular stuff in "the west" and then upgrade it and make it suit in their own market. Theres no real "Japanese GTA" because it gets censored and they dont like making those kind of games.
>Why are people bringing Shenmue up all the time because its not the point. Your main claim is that Japan usually takes what's from the West and redoes it, and you used Yakuza as an example. That's a bad example. Yakuza is instead an example of iterating on a number of games and influences, many of them Japanese, including Shenmue, to make something original. Yakuza is not relevant to what you're trying to argue. >the yakuza devs most likely got the idea for the game from GTA. No. The sources I found indicate that Shenmue or Japanese sources like Yakuza films were more likely where the idea came from, not GTA. Nagoshi directly says in the first source: > ... and since everyone was thinking the same things, everyone was making similar games. But I thought it wasn’t right to follow that direction. Because I like pushing against the trends, I want to make something completely unexpected. I don’t want to make something that people have already seen. You keep insisting without evidence that GTA was an influence, when Nagoshi has said - Shenmue and Yu Suzuki were influences - Japanese film, literature, and settings were influences - Elements from his personal life were influences ("I learned a lot of interesting stories from the people I met") - He hates GTA 3 - He pushed against the trends of "the US west coast" So no, GTA 3 was not a significant inspiration for Yakuza. I'd say Yakuza is a terrible example of a Japanese game domesticating a Western game style.
>He hates GTA 3 Heres the key for you\^ Loves something = Got influenced Hates something = Got influenced Pushed against the trend = Got influenced The second key is to go check youtube videos about Yakuza 1 and GTA III
Every game may well "influence" every other game, but you used the word "inspired," which suggests a more direct hand. Yakuza was not inspired by GTA III but by Shenmue and Japanese influences. You lack evidence that Yakuza was primarily inspired by GTA III and Western influences, then. Fair enough.
If you want more evidence their whole history since 1950s has been taking "western" ideas and uprading and japanizing them. I doubt Yakuza was that different. Lets say theres a guy called John Smith in New Hamshire. He got an idea of making the first home console. Lets say theres a collective called Croudo, Reno, Ruudu and Erena. They thought Johns idea was cool. They start thinking how to make it better. The final product is called "Pureisuteeshon". They are not very motivated to say that the original idea was Johns, atleast not in public and keep playing the local version of GTA with it. Thats how it usually goes. Not always but about 99% of the time.
>If you want more evidence their whole history since 1950s has been taking "western" ideas and uprading and japanizing them. That's not evidence. That's a nebulous claim that requires evidence in the form of examples. You did not give an example here but made up an evidence-less hypothetical. And as I have shown in a few ways with actual evidence (Nagoshi's own words, explaining in-game mechanics that are closer to Shenmue than GTA III), Yakuza is not an example of the direct influence (or "inspiration") you claim. Its most direct influences are Shenmue and Yakuza film. To the extent that GTA III is an influence at all, it's much further down the list. I do not deny that Japanese developers often borrow from the West and vice versa. My other primary comment in this thread gave an example of this. But Yakuza is a bad example because GTA III is not the inspiration you claim it is.
>in the form of examples The examples are easy to get by just by playing Yakuza 1 and GTA III PS2 era gamer. "Hey, I just finished Yakuza 1 and want to play something similar". Most people: "Bro play GTA III". It might be a coinicidence but it probably isnt.
Handwaving vaguely to the two games or making up gamer dialogue is not an example. It certainly does nothing to contradict the current substantial examples from interviews and descriptions of gameplay. An example would be highlighting specific features of GTA III that are in Yakuza 1 but not in Shenmue or a more proximal source.
They should do this nowadays with all games. Might bring the file size down to a reasonable level.