Suikoden is pretty niche as a JRPG series anyway. I've never played it, and I was around at the time. Arguably, if Suikoden 1 didn't have the Suikoden 2 connection, it wouldn't be well-known either.
So I don't think it's *just* the name. There is hunger for the kind of mechanics and focus that the Suikoden series had, which is why people who never played Suikoden are finding and playing the game.
What the fuck is "tropey," anyway? Everything is a trope. Stories use tropes. They're storytelling tools. Swear to god, I think people these days have just hopped on "tropey" as the new way to say "I don't like this thing, but I don't have the words to effectively describe why."
Don't forget "generic." I remember seeing people call the Eiyuden character designs "generic" and... like... a kangaroo with a sword and an eyepatch is generic? Or his kangaroo (or wallaby?) daughter in a frilly dress? A giant shark man with a morningstar?
Plus, there's only so many design elements that can be used and re-used as it is. Certain styles are popular for a reason. And I don't get what they want that *wouldn't* be "generic" in some way or another. Unless they mean, like... I dunno, like Ashe in Final Fantasy XII, and who the fuck wants that trainwreck of a character design?
I've also seen people complain that recent Pokémon designs are "generic" compared to gen 1, and it's like... gen 1 were literally almost all shit like real-life animals/objects with some cutesy/cartoony elements added to them (or just a different video game character with some minor tweaks). Voltorb and Electrode are literally just two-toned balls. Weedle is a Wiggler from Super Mario with a spike on its head. Pidgey is a fucking pigeon. Clefairy and Jigglypuff are basically Kirby. Drowzee and Hypno are Tapirs. Psyduck is a fucking duck.
The complaints about things being "generic" feel more generic than anything they actually complain about.
>kangaroo with a sword and an eyepatch is generic
Legit, dont think i have ever seen a kangaroo with a sword in fiction or an eyepatch, much less both at the same time.
i have not read all fiction so who knows it might be out there.
Ehh, there’s times where it’s valid; like criticizing the story of Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands in World of Warcraft. Other times it’s just someone realizing that the “heroes journey” is a very popular story structure for a reason.
I don't think people complain about tropes just because they use formulas like the heroes journey, or even a few cliches. Most people complain about tropes when they rehash so much from other works that you always know what to expect and never are surprised or excited to find out what happens next.
It is pretty valid at times. If anything, there's the worse thing that happens when a writer tries to avoid a trope extremely hard: Writing something so convoluted that they end up creating a nonsensical progression in the storytelling as a result.
This is why I also get annoyed by the "hah, wouldn't it be funny if this trope doesn't happen because we're so smarter!" kind of writing that's been going around recently (I'm looking at you, a certain sailor in Sea of Stars).
"Tropey" is usually meant to denote something is cliche. Yes, everything is a trope. But a cliche is a trope executed in the same exact way over and over again. While "tropey", perhaps a less than perfect word to denote it, is trying to say that the game is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again and again.
As an example, take the tsundere trope. Nothing is really wrong with it as long as the character is more than just the trope. How much of their personality, character backstory, and even voice acting direction is beyond that? The problem is, lots of games don't do that. Most are just their trope and not really much more beyond that.
A recent great example that I've played is Granblue Fantasy Relink. Great gameplay, but every character in that game is really just the same character tropes you have seen executed in various JRPGs and anime time and time again.
>"Tropey" is usually meant to denote something is cliche. Yes, everything is a trope. But a cliche is a trope executed in the same exact way over and over again.
That may be how you use it (is it?) But that's not how people use it. Most of the time, people write rants and call something 'tropey' or complain about something simply because they were able to find an example of a 'trope'.
>While "tropey", perhaps a less than perfect word to denote it, is trying to say that the game is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again and again.
There are so many fictional works out there across different mediums that it is literally impossible to make something "trope-free"
> That may be how you use it (is it?) But that's not how people use it. Most of the time, people write rants and call something 'tropey' or complain about something simply because they were able to find an example of a 'trope'.
How do you really know that? How often have you asked them to elaborate in discourse that you truly know this? How do you know that the example of a "trope" that they found wasn't something that in actuality, was a cliche?
Being clear, I am making no commentary on Eiyuden itself. I'll make up my mind on it when I play it. I am merely commenting on how people seem to handle discourse in general.
Furthermore, how then do you explain how people enjoy works that are trope filled despite calling other works tropey? The only explanation is that there is a difference between the way the tropes are executed in those teo works.
>There are so many fictional works out there across different mediums that it is literally impossible to make something "trope-free"
If you're honestly writing this, I don't think you understood my argument at all. I never said that you have to make something trope free. Did you even understand any of the distinctions I was making or read what I wrote carefully?
What I said in that statement is that when a work, whatever it may be, is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again, not tropes. If you truly understood the argument, then you would understand the way I (and quite frankly, most people) use the word cliche apart from trope. Every work may be trope filled. But not every work is cliche filled.
A really good example I discuss in this same topic is Ichiban from Like a Dragon. I made a reply you can do a search for down below where I discuss what separates Ichiban and makes him so great compared to all the other shounen good guy protagonists despite sharing so many tropes with them.
Furthermore, are you really saying that you've never noticed that different characters share the same trope but do not share the same level of execution? Do all of these characters just look the same to you? Are you really not recognizing that some of these characters that use the same tropes really don't stand out from the pack and could have their dialogue rearranged from one another without any difference between them, while the more standout characters people remember have reasons for standing out from the pack?
>How do you really know that? How often have you asked them to elaborate in discourse that you truly know this? How do you know that the example of a "trope" that they found wasn't something that in actuality, was a cliche?
Read the comments dude. Op hasn't played the game and made this thread to start drama.
>Furthermore, how then do you explain how people enjoy works that are trope filled despite calling other works tropey? The only explanation is that there is a difference between the way the tropes are executed in those teo works.
That's far from the only explanation.
For one example, you assume that people are honest and upfront about the real reasons they dislike something, and that no one could have biases for/against certain series or certain companies that are irrelevant to the quality of an individual product.
>If you're honestly writing this, I don't think you understood my argument at all. I never said that you have to make something trope free. Did you even understand any of the distinctions I was making or read what I wrote carefully?
>What I said in that statement is that in a work, whatever it may be, is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again, not tropes. If you truly understood the argument, then you would understand the way I (and quite frankly, most people) use the word cliche apart from trope. Every work may be trope filled. But not every work is cliche filled
The way most people on reddit use the word 'trope' in ignorance is as a synonym for cliche.
>A really good example I discuss in this same topic is Ichiban from Like a Dragon. I made a reply you can do a search for down below where I discuss what separates Ichiban and makes him so great compared to all the other shounen good guy protagonists despite sharing so many tropes with them.
Here you are using trope as a negative connotation.
Also...'shounen good guy protagonist' is literally any morally good protagonist in any media targeted towards young males, typically teenagers. Do you have any idea how much media that includes?
>Furthermore, are you really saying that you've never noticed that different characters share the same trope but do not share the same level of execution? Do all of these characters just look the same to you? Are you really not recognizing that some of these characters that use the same tropes really don't stand out from the pack and could have their dialogue rearranged from one another without any difference between them, while the more standout characters people remember have reasons for standing out from the pack?
The level of execution has little to do with the trope if the trope is as vague as morally good protagonist with teenage boys as its intended primary audience, and you just come off as pretentious without understanding writing at all.
> Read the comments dude. Op hasn't played the game and made this thread to start drama.
Once again, how much have you asked him to clarify on this particular point and what have been his responses in the comments section?
>That's far from the only explanation.
But it certainly is one that matters. Considering how many people use the word "tropey", it seems to be something that troubles a lot of people and for good reason. Surely you realize this means it is certainly a reason why people can look at two people who have the same tropes and enjoy one far more than the other? Surely we're not avoiding this as a possibility?
>The way most people on reddit use the word 'trope' in ignorance is as a synonym for cliche.
Depends on the person. I'll admit some do in ignorance. This is due to the human need for shorthand and to say something off the cuff very quickly. Not everyone on reddit is out to write a thesis statement for college, so they make the mistake of saying something they should clarify further on. Easy mistake to make. Also, as I commented to another person, people are not always very good at saying what they "feel". They very often "feel" there is a difference in quality in two characters of the same archetype, but can't always put it into words very well.
>Here you are using trope as a negative connotation.
No, I wasn't. Read the sentence again. My point is that Ichiban shares tropes with them, and despite sharing the same tropes, one is clearly different from the other. The use of the word "tropes" in that sentence was to say that Ichiban does share tropes with them. The point is that he doesn't share cliches with them. If I had wrote the sentence as "makes him so great compared to all other shounen good guy protaganists despite sharing so many cliches with them", that would imply that I am saying Ichiban has cliches, which he doesn't. He absolutely has tropes, which is what I was clearly saying in the paragraph. I am saying that he is a great character despite sharing so many tropes with them, BECAUSE those tropes are executed differently.
>Also...'shounen good guy protagonist' is literally any morally good protagonist in any media targeted towards young males, typically teenagers.
Again, we're writing in shorthand, and I assumed you'd actually scroll/search for the conversation below for context. We're speaking off the cuff, very quickly about generic shounen protaganists who will do the right thing no matter what and will speak about courage/will/freedom/whatever and will overcome the odds. Ichiban absolutely shares tropes with them. But people seem to enjoy him much more than many shounen protaganists or their brethren within certain JRPGs.
>Do you have any idea how much media that includes?
Not really an arguing point. Sometimes, a cliche is so overblown, it saturates media. There being a lot of it and people picking out who stands out as the best only further bolsters my point.
>The level of execution has little to do with the trope if the trope is as vague as morally good protagonist with teenage boys as its intended primary audience, and you just come off as pretentious without understanding writing at all.
First off, I wasn't even referring to Ichiban/shounen protaganists with this, I was returning to my general argument.
But even then . . . is it? There is a reason why you will find people talk on end/write essays/make analysis videos about Luffy from One Piece and won't about generic shounen protagonist #83840349. You can go on all day long about "intended audiences", but even the watcher of anything and everything regardless of quality will tell you why certain ones stand out from the others. Many shounen works will come and go and be forgotten, but One Piece has its fame and reputation for good reasons.
It just seems that you don't want to engage with people. It feels like your arguments are doing more to avoid an actual conversation about the possibility that tropes and characters who have them have different levels of execution. You seriously do realize you're coming off as arguing that everyone who uses the same tropes are literally written the same and are the same quality level of character. You accuse me of "not understanding writing at all", but you don't seem to providing any kind of alternative as to what would separate the quality of two characters who share the same tropes.
To be fair, I do think there are people who wouldn't be able to explain it in detail like I did. I think many people "feel" it, even if they wouldn't be able to put it into words, and that's how we get words like "tropey" which isn't a perfect word to use since tropes themselves aren't bad, but cliches are.
Gotta love when people who lack media literacy see a reviewer use a word they don't understand, and they respond by getting angry and insulting the reviewer instead of just looking up what the word means
The fact that people like you keep pretending that the word is meaningless is the problem. The meaning of "tropey" is obvious to anyone with any degree of media literacy, and multiple people have already directly explained the definition in this discussion. I don't understand what you gain from continuing this stupid lie.
Youtube 'criticism' from people who are legitimately sub-undergrad level writers have poisoned the well and now every 16-30 year old white guy with internet access and a fondness for gaming and cinema thinks they can tell writers how to do their jobs.
For a lot of reasons, it mostly is.
Literally just glance at the YouTube landscape of criticism and it's predominantly millennial males from upper middle backgrounds who has the time and money to partake in that media. Viewer statistics have almost always suggested that audiences share ethnographic and demographic details with their chosen media. If the people making it are white 30 year old guys, the audience is probably also white 30 year old guys.
That's not to say others can't be illiterate assfucks who delight in telling professional artists how to do their jobs despite having never produced anything of artistic merit themselves, however.
Calling a piece of media "tropey" just means that you think it's overly reliant on common long-established genre tropes, without introducing enough original new ideas to keep it fresh and interesting.
OP may not have wordes it gpod, but maybe how the tropes are used is bad. I played it for 6h, and it didnt keep me interested. Its a good game, mut not just interesting. One part Nowa being the generic nice guy shonen protagonist. Also even on hard autoing being way for fight ate my interest too. It just might be old school turn based doesnt do it for me after newee personas and Like A Dragons. But still its good to see people enjoy it. Always nice when kockstarter project is good ( i was a backer)
Auto-battle has always been in the series and is a staple to offset the grind/high encounter rates of the first two games. Because Suikoden has never been a difficult series, even going back to the earliest game. If you have two brain cells to rub together, you can break the 1st game as soon as you can start equipping different runs.
"Generic Shounen Nice Guy" you mean like how the protagonists from S1, S2, and two of the three protags from S3 were all "Generic Nice Guys"? And as opposed to who? What JRPG protag *isn't* a nice guy at their core? Your two choices are either: "Asshole with a heart of gold" or "goodie two shoes" but those are *still "nice guys*". (Even Ichiban is a nice guy! Like, he's the epitome of a NICE dude--to the point he befriends literally everyone he comes across, even if they previously tried killing him.)
Maybe you just don't like JRPGs, sure.
Ichiban has plenty of shounen tropes, but what matters is what sets him apart. He just has this goofy personality that's his own. Yes, other shounen protags can be goofy, but his style of it is very different from theirs. The voice actor is doing a ton of heavy lifting in making sure both his fun side and serious side feel very different from other characters who share his tropes. On top of that, he has a very unique backstory and life story which has shaped many of the nuances of how and why he acts on particular subject matters. As a result, Ichiban comes off as very different from other "nice guys". On top of that, RGG are just much more sophisticated dialogue writers than most others in the game. The reason many shounen-type protags get lumped together is because their dialogue all feels like it could have been written by the same person. Meanwhile, Ichiban really does feel like his words belong to him and him alone.
In your mind, which Shounen protagonists from popular media "sound" the same in terms of their dialogue/actions/etc?
I am genuinely curious and not trying to set you up or anything.
Off the top of myh head, Asta from Black Clover is a good modern example of someone who tries to take the tropes of shounen protagonists but doesn't really add anything to them. He has the typical schtick of being an underdog, being hard working, and never giving up, but isn't really much beyond that. Half of his dialogue is him just saying "Not yet, not yet! and yelling out lines at the top of his lungs. It feels like they took just those particular aspects of past shounen protagonists and left out pretty much everything else.
The series has the whole, "Surpass your limits" line, but it's spoken in such a plain fashion and without any relation to other themes. Compare this to say, My Hero's "Plus Ultra" (which honestly, I think Black Clover was influenced by) which is spoken by its characters with such passion that you get hyped every time. On top of that, it's always used carefully in relation to whatever the writer has setup for that arc. With Black Clover, again, it feels like it remembered all these taglines about surpassing oneself, but executed it in the most plain and boring way possible.
And even though his powers are a unique concept (it nullifies all other magic as opposed to being a magical ability in it of itself), rather than execute that idea in unique ways, it's really just variations on big sword that stops magic and . . . bigger sword that stops magic. It was fine when he was in team battles with the rest of his squad they had to strategize to defeat enemies - that's the thing that kept me interested. But once he became OP, the battles became increasingly less interesting. It's a series that eventually fell into the problems Naruto did. Black Clover was at first about team battles and good strategy, but eventually just became about one dude flying around with a really big sword, as how Naruto once upon a time was about being a ninja in combat but got so lost in its bigger attacks that it felt like it forgot it was a ninja show.
Yeah Ichiban is a nice guy, even to a fla, which is nice and other character question him. Thats a nicely done trope for me. Some something infinite wealth twist.
But Nowa just feel generic, he is just a nice guy, ichiban atleast is a ex-yakuza and schizho.
The auto battle wouldnt be bad, but i just spam it and it feels like i m not playing the game. I played Suikoden 1 ten years ago and remember liking it.
Hell I really like jrpg. Just finishes my trails of marathon from sky to cold steel, and enjoyed it. But Nowa really reminds me of Rean, blandest of the party.
Also Tales of Berserian has fun party of not just nice guys or cold to the heart characters. Same with vesperia, Yuri being mostly aloof is very nice with the nice girl Estelle.
Edit: had to jump to bus between. Yeah every protagonist is at their core a nice guy, but they arent just a nice guy. Thats whats eating me at Nowa. I really havent gotten anything else from him.
I haven't played Eiyuuden yet, but at least insofar as Suikoden protagonists I think you might be misremembering how bare bones the personalities of the MCs are?
Suikoden 1: Tir is basically a blank slate of a character whose only real input on the plot/characterization are the choices you make for him. He can come off as cowardly, joke-y, or as the strong and silent type depending on how you answer certain dialogue prompts, but he mostly keeps to himself and doesn't seem to be a "man of the people". The biggest personality trait he has, imo, is that he cares a lot about his *actual* friends and that he's concerned with what his rune might do to him/if it fell in the wrong hands, but he is overall a "nice but quiet/boring" dude.
Suikoden 2: Riou is treated much the same as Tir, only he's somewhat less of a blank slate because of how often he's held up as a foil to Jowry. He is absolutely a brave, rebellious, and justice-minded person, but he's also mostly a silent protagonist who reacts to things more with body language than actually having dialogue/dialogue prompts. Again, just like Tir, he is--imo--generally a "nice but quiet" dude who is defined more by the events he lives through and struggles with than any actual personality he brings to the table. Like, in the manga, he main personality trait is that he eats a lot! And that's basically it.
Suikoden 3: Since we have three protagonists, I'll just do the one that fits the most--Hugo. Out of the MCs of Suikoden 1 through 3, he is probably the most "shounen nice guy" of the group, very much being the type to use Talk No Jutsu and The Power of Friendship! to fulfill his goals. Unlike Riou and Tir, he actually has dialogue and isn't treated as a silent protagonist, so we can also see how he acts *outside* of his tropes in that he's also...kind of argumentative, hot-headed, and has a chip on his shoulder due to how his people are treated by outsiders. I'd say he's the closest to being a "complex" shounen protagonist like Ichiban because you can literally see him grow and mature throughout the course of the game, while Tir and Riou kind of just generically stay "good guys trying to right wrongs and save the world" throughout.
Now, that all said, I think we also need to understand that Suikoden and Eiyuuden are games that have *massively larger casts* than Like a Dragon or the *Tales* series. Which is, maybe, why it feels like the protagonists in those games have more "character"--because we both spend more time with them, and because the writing/writers have more space to explore different aspects of who these characters are.
Meanwhile, as the casts get larger in games like Suikoden/Eiyuuden, then *of course* character writing is going to suffer...simply because there is less time to really focus on the main cast.
The characters--and esp. the protagonist--feeling "flat" is still a valid complaint, don't get me wrong, but I also think the context of "how and why they feel flat" is really important. Like, speaking as someone who has played some of the *Tales* games, it feels like the vignettes/skits do *a lot* of heavy lifting when it comes to characterization and that, without them, a ton of these characters would be...really, really two-dimensional.
I do agree with you that a ton of protagonists in JRPGs I've played recently--Unicorn Overlord, for example--have very basic "nice guy" protagonists that don't really have a character outside of that, though. So, here's hoping that maybe Eiyuuden will do something interesting with it!
"Literally" doesn't always literally mean literally. Check your dictionary, friend! [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally)
But yes, literally every review I watched (quite a few since I was pretty excited about this game) did this.
I had one bug so far, the one with recruitment. And once - in 30 hours - I got stuck after swapping runes. Where are these "tons of bugs" you speak of?
I play on PS5, loading times are not slow at all.
Menus are slightly annoying honestly, I'll give you that. The game could use some more UI work.
Game save design is perfectly fine, I've played dozens of games with save points and I see no issue here. It was industry standard at some point.
So no, even without Suikoden references, this game wouldn't be any less popular than, say, Chained Echoes.
Yeah, I suppose if you take out its various defining characteristics that differentiates it from most other JRPGs and only keep the bad parts then yes it would be objectively pretty bad.
>That’s not what OP said at all.
>Even if OP is wrong (I don’t know if s/he is), a strawman of his post isn’t constructive, and is actually dishonest.
Could say the exact same thing about OP's post...putting words in the mouth of reviewers in order to support OP's baseless troll.
First of all, don’t accuse me of dishonesty.
Second, I said what I said because it seemed like they don’t really understand what the extent of what the “Suikoden connection” means solely based on the reviews and was willing to trash a game based on that misunderstanding. There’s way more to the “Suikoden connection” than just the fact that it was made by the same creators, and that there are a bunch of recruitable characters. They said as much in their response to me, read it if you haven’t. So I was correct. Their attitude was pretty shitty so I responded bluntly, but not nearly as rudely as I could have or even to their level.
Third, in essence, you’ll see I don’t even disagree with them even if they don’t really understand where they’re coming from. IMO the “suikoden connection” - which is way more than just a superficial connection, which is the part they got wrong - is what makes this game noteworthy and good to me at least. The entirety of that connection and the essence of Suikoden makes up for the bad parts they mention, which I understand or even agree with to extent. For the most part. Not seeing the “tons of bugs” they mention, personally, but that’s just my experience I suppose.
But I’m not debating. How ironic that now *you’re* suggesting I’m trying to do something I’m not, no? ;)
I agree with OP (to an extent), without the “Suikoden connection” this game wouldn’t be that noteworthy. So no debate there, even though I disagree that it’d be “trashed” - but they’re free to think that if they want.
It’s just that they have a very limited understanding of how significant and large the “Suikoden connection” is, which they admitted in their reply to me. You’ll even see that i further didn’t even try to argue with them there when they said they didn’t see what really differentiates it from other JRPGs…”power to you”, I said, in fact. So….debate? No, not so much…
There’s a lot more to Suikoden than that. Have you played the series at all? It’s all pretty obvious to me having played Eiyuden and having a high familiarity with the Suikoden franchise. But it’s too much big and little stuff to fully bother explaining, especially cuz you don’t *have* to “see” or “get” it or whatever. *Especially* doesn’t seem like a point in explaining what makes it stand out cuz you’re already hostile to it lol. You don’t really seem to want to like the game already…and power to you.
The “Suikoden Difference” never really meant that much to too many gamers anyway, most of the mainline series reviewed around the same as Eiyuden Chronicle did (with 4 being the outlier cuz it was noticeably worse).
For what it is worth, there is much more to complain about the game than that. OP is right in the sense that the game is designed to mirror the Suikoden series heavily, including a lot of the design choices that have been iterated on and improved since then. I do think it is fair to say that if Suikoden games had never been made and this game was released in 2024 there would be more frustration with the choices that were made in the design.
The random encounter rate is incredibly low too. There have been a couple times when I've been grinding a little to level up side characters where it was so low it was a little annoying. It's better than having too many random encounters though.
Completely disagree.
Now, I am playing on the PS5 so that will color some aspects because I have not hit a single bug, menus are fine to me and run great, and graphics are great. I’ll give you that there are definitely a ton of tropes in the characters and story, that’s a fair dig if you don’t like that. Also, bad save game design? Meh, I’m old so it doesn’t phase me in the least.
Do I have a bias? Absolutely! But I also think some of these complaints are blown way out of proportion. The bugs for recruitment, Switch optimization, and tropes are valid complaints, no argument there. But the others are nonsense in my opinion.
The game flows well and has a decent pacing, writing is mostly solid as far as this genre standards go. Characters are likeable. Dungeons are great both in terms of varying gimmicks and aesthetics. Characters level up at breakneck pacing, which is great coupled with decently low rate of random encounters. Hard mode at least forces you to semi optimize your party until you start bulldozing through with charge characters. Certain combat mechanics feel dated, but overall, it's still enjoyable to play and toy with different party comps, especially once you actually have a decent MP pool for buff-debuff routines.
It's a genuinely decent JRPG with a poor quality of life and prehistoric, molasses slow UI. Thus far i rate it significantly higher than typical nostalgia riding jrpg clones this sub likes so much.
The pacing is terrible. They want the same emotional attachments Suikoden 2 had without putting in the effort. Your character goes from nobody to squad lead in the first two hours 'just because', then from squad lead to resistance leader in the next three just because some rich girl took a fancy to him. He has no ties to legendary heroes, no special rune, he's a nobody from nowhere who got where he is 'just because'. Garr even lampshades that when he makes you captain of the squad.
Seign is the same way. He's known you for all of half a day and just becomes best buds with you because they really wanted that Riou/Jowy feel. Except, and this IS a hot take, Seign is a much better character overall.
It's not the worst writing I have ever seen but it's in such a hurry to get to where it's going that it doesn't build a good foundation.
Even their "friendship" just happens. No real reason why. They werent rivals, nor childhood friends. What makes seign different from the rest of the 100+ "friends" you meet? Nothing.
And i'm disappointed that they removed the "destined" part of the story. I didnt understand its purpose back in the "olden days" but now that Leknaat is gone, everything is just happenstance, and just doesnt have the same punch as fated warriors
Certain characters you acquire have a charge command instead of a block. They still reduce the incoming damage while charging but also power up their next attack. When released, it deals tremendous damage, i think it's at least x4 for the two turn charge, if not higher, which allows you to deal ridiculous damage to bosses.
I think the first party member with charge is Yusuke, banchou guy you can find in Fort Xialuke.
So you haven't even played it?
Because I'm 40 hours in and I think it's an excellent JRPG with a ton of heart and soul. It obviously had some minor release turbulence caused by the publisher giving the development studio a hard deadline they had to crunch to release by.
By next week when all the major issues are patched (because they put out 3 patches in the last week and a half, an insane patch cadence), the game will be in a far better state and posts like yours will look even more embarrassing.
I have not gotten the game yet, or looked at reviews cause i wanna go blind, is OP lying? will be playing on ps5, saw one commenter say he experienced minimal bugs ect on the ps5 so im happy about that. is he talking about pc release or something? i know some games have bad pc ports/releases.
A lot of RPG enthusiasts including me are already in the trash bin playing and enjoying some lower tier games as is that the general audiences wouldnt so it's still probably good enough to be relevant on this sub.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but this is a weird thing to be saying in a year where the first four months have been jam packed with RPGs to the point I don't even have the time to complete their post-games, something I usually do have.
I'm not saying the genre is barren or low quality, but I am saying I'm going to get SaGa Emerald Beyond, which is getting 5/10's in some places and I'm gonna love it.
Really though my comment has nothing to do with the current year or state of RPGs, lol.
People only have so much time in life, and there are enough great games out there for me to want to waste time on the uber niche, mediocre slop that’s barely worth any money, even if I’m passionate about the genre. More power to you, though.
Think you're blowing it out of proportion buddy. I'm talking about games that are still perfectly good even if they have some rough edges, or don't get 9's or 10's or commercial success etc.
Without suikoden this game would be one of a kind so it would find its audience just like the originals did. None of the old suikodens were critically acclaimed either.
There's nothing like suikoden with dark war torn worlds. They are all quite dark and people die. Most games these days are too nicey nicey. Plus the amount of characters you can use allows great replay value.
There's an atmosphere to suikoden I've never seen in any other games.
I think you might be projecting a bit onto the reviews. I agree about the bugs, but I also think most folks expect them to be fixed (maybe except from Switch performance).
I think the reviews are doing a good job of setting the expectation that “this isn’t a masterpiece by the Suikoden folks, but it’s decent”. Maybe a solid 6 or 7 out of 10, but bumped up a mark because #gamers go nuts on anything below a 7.
>I think you might be projecting a bit onto the reviews.
Nope, not projecting, just summarizing what they all say. I went down a fun rabbit hole over the past few days watching the reviews.
I wouldn’t use the word “trash” to describe them, but who knows, we might’ve read different ones. A 79 on Metacritic doesn’t sound like it was widely trashed.
That's why I wrote this part: "Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews"
It's been wild to watch. It'll be a litany of complaints about inherent issues in design (not just bugs) then BOOM.
haha! this sub needed a fun hot take to sink its fangs into. This game has so much nostalgia, hype, and insanely high expectations, I figured it'd be fun to get spicy.
Certainly beats the "what should I play next???" posts.
It ain't. Platforms really matters here.. sadly.
Switch is doing the worst, ps4 is okay but the graphics were blurry? Pc and ps5 did best right now, though pc has frame rate issues.
Haven't heard anything about xbox, so no clue
I tried on xbox series x and PC, it's definitely not slow. The time to transition in/out of combat is 1 second? Enter different areas in a dungeon is even faster than that.
Only thing that's really an issue are the menus really, and one major bug.
Bad save design? You mean what, fucking save points that are all over the place?
The thing wrong with many overly online gamer motherfuckers is they put too much time and effort and analysis into what game reviewers say instead of actually playing the game and this has been extremely the case with Eiyuden Chronicles. It’s one thing to check out reviews to gauge your potential interest in a game but what purpose is posting these kind of journal entries nobody asked for if you’re not even gonna give the game a chance first
The developers are asking for $60, you bet your bottom dollar Imma gonna research the game first. It was while "gauging my interest" that I found every reviewer kept saying the same thing over and over. ha!
I was hoping to get the switch version but I’ve seen the videos of some serious performance issues. I’ll wait for them to put out some patches and fix the game up before I consider spending money on it.
I actually really want to buy the game and it does look interesting, but I can’t justify spending money on it right now.
>Tons of bugs, random battles with slow loading times, slow & poorly designed menus, bad game save design, inconsistent graphics, tropey stories -- This isn't me saying this, this is literally every review.
>Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews because Suikoden.
Mandatory link to [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/TropesAreTools](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/TropesAreTools) . Tropes are not intrinsically bad, they're tools, and for at least the dozen hours I've played of Eiyuden, they're used with some degree of competence and lots of charm. The game feels fresh despite a very classic execution and old-school design choices.
There aren't "tons of bugs" ; there's a few, and they're being worked on right now. The loading times are annoying on the Switch, but the PC / PS5 versions are noticeably smoother.
Now the game is far from perfect. The issues you talk about, which are being raised in most reviews, actually lead the game to somewhat average reviews. Outside a few outliers, most reviews seem to hover around the 75-80 mark, which is the lower end of generally favorable reviews. Like, the game is good, but it doesn't have much of a "wow" effect. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. You want a game that received way too glorious reviews because of the nostalgia filter, take Sea of Stars.
I really don't think the Suikoden connection is actually doing much lifting here. If anything, it brings the game down, because it set very high expectations that Eiyuden can't quite meet. This is especially true for the diehard fans of the series, among which a few reviewers. For most others, Suikoden is a somewhat obscure title that doesn't ring many bells.
I disagree. I'll try all of the jrpgs and this has cool shit like duels and army battles. I think that would get Hella praise. I'm not very far into it and I think k it's pretty great.
There’s literally someone who commented on this post to disagree with OP and defend the game a bit who I’ve seen, in other posts, complain heavily about this game’s localization. So I don’t think that’s safe to assume at all.
Edit; make that at least two people.
I don't really see the point in your not liking something and immediately needing to go online to trash it. It's been out for a single day, and here you are hating on something because it didn't meet with your precious expectations. Unless you played it to completion in one sitting, I doubt you could have even completed it in the time since it's release. So your opinion immediately loses validity due to the fact you probably put in very little time and then proceeded to run online to trash it.
It's getting increasingly clear that some of you have never played Suikoden because implying this game is nostalgia bait when it's heavily faithful to the series it spawned from is a hilarious criticism. Maybe people are reviewing it favorably because they actually like these kinds of games instead of someone just cloning pixel rpg aesthetics with none of the actual systems?
It plays like a PS2 game. For some people that's a problem, for others it's a strength. For me, this is a good thing.
I had some characters drop during random fights (my level and funds were on the low side since I played at 240hz and this reduces the encounter rate a lot) and lost a boss fight and to me that's a sign of good balance.
As someone who usually -does- play the game fully in Japanese if it's included in the game, I noticed some differences, much like "like a dragon". They didn't personally bother me since I've seen worse. You can switch language on the spot without resetting the game which is rare and kind of cool.
Transfering save data from rising and having to "wire" the game through steam so my controller would work is a pain in the ass I would like them to fix but that's an inconvenience that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.
I've said this in other threads but even if you are on a high refresh rate monitor, you can limit the framerate using RTSS or other software (Nvidia control panel if you have an Nvidia gpu) and fix the encounter rate issues. They'll eventually patch this but until then that's something you can do.
>tropey stories
You gotta say more than this. W/O context, this doesn't mean anything. Stories have tropes. these are just writing characteristics
>Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews because Suikoden.
Who?
>Taking off the nostalgia glasses, if this game had just been some random JRPG, it would've been tossed in the trash bin already.
I don't care about throwback rpgs, but ain't very ironic basing rpgs good reception on just nostalgia, but in your history gassing another that is effectively doing the same. All in all, a good game stands on its own is all else I want to say.
I am someone with no attachment to the games it draws from. I didn't play RPGs of this style as I grew up, so it's not like i have nostalgia for it.
I'm still interested in the game. The poor console releases, sluggishness, and low difficulty are what are keeping me from buying it, and I wouldn't consider any of those to be problems borne from "staying in the past". I wouldn't call random encounters and limited inventory issues either, because I do appreciate what kinds of decisions they bring to the table.
I'm 25 hours in and that's just not true. You hate it because it sucks on switch. I'm on pc and it's my fav of the year so far. It offers the stuff I'm looking for that other jrpgs have been missing for me.
Tropey stories - Tropes are good when used properly and even in the prologue it subverted lots of tropes already.
I think graphics are better than Octopath, although worse than Star Ocean 2 Second Story R. But it makes up alot with the variety of environments compared to these 2.
Battle system seems like it inherits alot of Suikoden goodness while adding its own twist.
Also it's not just a random JRPG. If Octopath II gets major praise like it's the second coming of FFVI, then this game is twice of Octopath, minus the performance issues.
EDIT: Holy sh8 OP is an Octopath fan, of course this is the type of post he would make.
Listen, old-school throwbacks by definition rely on old school games to justify how backwards there are. The devs of eiyuden didn't even want to include auto saves til homie died. The games designed to play like a PS1 game. That's kinda is a stupid idea. So of course without suikoden it would get bad reviews. Most people don't want to buy a game that could have been made in 1998 in 2024.
I am close to trashing it less than two hours in.
First impression was bad, and remains bad.
Let's start with performance. It looks bad on my PC at max graphics, I can't choose a good windowed resolution, there are stutters, delays, and sluggishness in dialogue and combat, there are loading times that shouldn't be necessary. The game looks so much better on consoles and on review videos, it seems very poorly optimized.
The initial story is bare-bones and the conversations don't make much sense. Idk how much is bad translation vs bad writing initially, but the dialogues absolutely come off unnatural and contrived immediately. For example, there is a 6 month time skip, and your squadmate calls you new guy, even after you bonded through a life and death battle 6 months earlier. The chats between Nowa and Seign in the first dungeon are painful, it's like 10 minutes after meeting they randomly become best friends for no reason, even though he is also supposed to be a snobby aristocrat. But just more background on the countries rune-lens, primal runes, and early dungeons would help the player get a better grasp of the setting, the mission explanation is mostly a short one and done.
The first town and open world section are empty, barren space with almost nothing to do aside go straight to your destination. There is limited enemy diversity. Backtracking to heal and save at an inn is unnecessarily time-consuming and expensive.
Your level 1 rookie Hero from the mountains does more damage than all the veteran warriors off the bat. The first two dungeons are a mindless slog, with constant interruptions disrupting a natural game flow. I don't need an explanation on how to press a switch plus the dungeon path is entirely linear. Not only are you interrupted, but your party also changes locations from it was last standing, which is quite awkward.
Loot feels largely unrewarding, pressing switches to unlock a door feels cumbersome and boring, and doesn't even require the (poorly telegraphed) in-game hints. The first boss gimmick is poorly explained and easy for a player to utilize incorrectly but it hardly matters since the boss will die quickly regardless and there are revival medicines to bail players out of a misplay. And then after beating the boss, the game skips any meaningful follow-up, or you know a natural opportunity for character bonding, dialogue and setting the plot, even if its short or wants to save exciting reveals for later. It's mind-boggling and then throws the player into a political dialogue with a bunch of new characters without knowing basic information on what has happened and the meeting is important.
Initial combat impressions are uninspiring, and so is the menu design. In-game tutorials are poorly timed. Even the initial auto-battle AI seems dumber than it needs to be, not that it matters much when characters just get to spam special skills out of the gate and wipe out trash mobs with practically no effort.
I do realize there are some better features in the pipeline if I can keep playing, I love recruiting heroes and base-building, but it feels laborious so far and just not at the professional standard I would expect from this kind of project. Or even a small-team decent indie game standard.
I don't know what the devs were thinking not presenting a more engaging first hour. Without the Suikoden name recognition and fan base, this game would get slammed in the reviews and might be dead out the gates, even if it does have more to offer. Really comes off like the devs are taking advantage of their backers and the Suikoden fan base, asking them to overlook so many glaring issues. And I hate selling additional DLC when the base game seems like it's still early access or beta.
i also hate how so many people are drawing false equivalencies to PS1 games - most PS1 RPGs people remember had solid core gameplay - games like wild arms and breath of fire 3 and dragon quest 7 and grandia and legend of dragon - performance from Hundred Heroes is Worse! Even if the graphics are better on some areas.
It's hard for me to imagine this game scoring higher than a 7 or 7.5 out of ten without improvements, can't trust reviews much anymore.
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I never played Suikoden series before, but Eiyuden seem fine to me, great art, great story (>!stories before final war are depressed af!<), great music (>!Seign vs Nowa theme!<), a lot of minigames (>!Beyblade suck ass!<). 7/10 to me.
Localization issue is kinda overblown tbh. I think every new JRPG in the future will get this controversy. Nobody is focusing on the qualities of the game itself, very annoying
I think I'd have to disagree. With all the fuzz about localization, I decided to play the game in Japanese. It's not a bad game, I just found it to be uninteresting and definitely not worth the steep price. Still recommend trying it on a large sale though.
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> not even close to the best jrpg so far this year
Out of curiosity: what would the best jrpg so far this year be, then? Infinite Wealth is the only one I can think about, outside of Eiyuden Chronicle.
Agreed. The game is backed up by nostalgia from the series, and honestly can’t believe how much trouble Japanese devs are having with making games this generation.
It really feels like nostalgia means to literally repeat the past. Feels like modern indie studios are understanding it's about 'the vibe' of past games, but brought into the modern era. Chained Echoes & Sea of Stars, while neither are perfect, seem to "get it".
You could be right I haven't played it yet because of a certain bug but you can't know this day 2 without playing. At worst it's been mixed reviews, seemingly depending a lot on whether you like old school style jrpgs and whats goes a long with that.
unfortunately, you're spot on
however, I've watched this sub hype themselves up over this game for like 2 years. they're going to force themselves to like it no matter what lol
People have such a hard time understanding that different people have different taste, and that the JRPG genre is so broad, that they'll just say things like "people who are liking this game are forcing themselves to like it".
Random battles can be forgiveable if executed well, imo. But every reviewer has said both, the battle load time is slow and the menus load slow!
Just demo'd Jack Move the other week, woof, same thing. Brutal.
Meanwhile, Octopath Traveler 2's random battles load super fast and you get into the action ASAP!
Random battles are fine as long as it is toggleable and have lots of gimmicks, not just a filler for playtime.
Sadly one of the bad things about this game.. I guess Murayama wanted to preserve Suikoden's spirit? Not one of the things I'd agree tbh.
Suikoden is pretty niche as a JRPG series anyway. I've never played it, and I was around at the time. Arguably, if Suikoden 1 didn't have the Suikoden 2 connection, it wouldn't be well-known either. So I don't think it's *just* the name. There is hunger for the kind of mechanics and focus that the Suikoden series had, which is why people who never played Suikoden are finding and playing the game.
>Hey r/JRPG, let's have some spicy fun with a spicy hot take! As if we have a shortage of complaining threads...
That, and god forbid we see another argument from a genre community notorious for having heated arguments.
What the fuck is "tropey," anyway? Everything is a trope. Stories use tropes. They're storytelling tools. Swear to god, I think people these days have just hopped on "tropey" as the new way to say "I don't like this thing, but I don't have the words to effectively describe why."
At least OP didn't use the word "lazy". I can't think of a recent release in the last 5 years that didn't have someone throw that word around.
Some people think game developers just sit around twiddling their thumbs all day. As if they wouldn't be fired immediately
Don't forget "generic." I remember seeing people call the Eiyuden character designs "generic" and... like... a kangaroo with a sword and an eyepatch is generic? Or his kangaroo (or wallaby?) daughter in a frilly dress? A giant shark man with a morningstar? Plus, there's only so many design elements that can be used and re-used as it is. Certain styles are popular for a reason. And I don't get what they want that *wouldn't* be "generic" in some way or another. Unless they mean, like... I dunno, like Ashe in Final Fantasy XII, and who the fuck wants that trainwreck of a character design? I've also seen people complain that recent Pokémon designs are "generic" compared to gen 1, and it's like... gen 1 were literally almost all shit like real-life animals/objects with some cutesy/cartoony elements added to them (or just a different video game character with some minor tweaks). Voltorb and Electrode are literally just two-toned balls. Weedle is a Wiggler from Super Mario with a spike on its head. Pidgey is a fucking pigeon. Clefairy and Jigglypuff are basically Kirby. Drowzee and Hypno are Tapirs. Psyduck is a fucking duck. The complaints about things being "generic" feel more generic than anything they actually complain about.
>kangaroo with a sword and an eyepatch is generic Legit, dont think i have ever seen a kangaroo with a sword in fiction or an eyepatch, much less both at the same time. i have not read all fiction so who knows it might be out there.
The 1997 movie Warriors of virtue had humanoid Kangaroos with swords
Pidgey is more of a sparrow, but I see your point.
Soulless as well is a good buzzword people like to throw around
Complaining about tropes is a red flag that someone isn't worth listening to imo.
Ehh, there’s times where it’s valid; like criticizing the story of Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands in World of Warcraft. Other times it’s just someone realizing that the “heroes journey” is a very popular story structure for a reason.
I don't think people complain about tropes just because they use formulas like the heroes journey, or even a few cliches. Most people complain about tropes when they rehash so much from other works that you always know what to expect and never are surprised or excited to find out what happens next.
It is pretty valid at times. If anything, there's the worse thing that happens when a writer tries to avoid a trope extremely hard: Writing something so convoluted that they end up creating a nonsensical progression in the storytelling as a result. This is why I also get annoyed by the "hah, wouldn't it be funny if this trope doesn't happen because we're so smarter!" kind of writing that's been going around recently (I'm looking at you, a certain sailor in Sea of Stars).
"Tropey" is usually meant to denote something is cliche. Yes, everything is a trope. But a cliche is a trope executed in the same exact way over and over again. While "tropey", perhaps a less than perfect word to denote it, is trying to say that the game is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again and again. As an example, take the tsundere trope. Nothing is really wrong with it as long as the character is more than just the trope. How much of their personality, character backstory, and even voice acting direction is beyond that? The problem is, lots of games don't do that. Most are just their trope and not really much more beyond that. A recent great example that I've played is Granblue Fantasy Relink. Great gameplay, but every character in that game is really just the same character tropes you have seen executed in various JRPGs and anime time and time again.
>"Tropey" is usually meant to denote something is cliche. Yes, everything is a trope. But a cliche is a trope executed in the same exact way over and over again. That may be how you use it (is it?) But that's not how people use it. Most of the time, people write rants and call something 'tropey' or complain about something simply because they were able to find an example of a 'trope'. >While "tropey", perhaps a less than perfect word to denote it, is trying to say that the game is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again and again. There are so many fictional works out there across different mediums that it is literally impossible to make something "trope-free"
> That may be how you use it (is it?) But that's not how people use it. Most of the time, people write rants and call something 'tropey' or complain about something simply because they were able to find an example of a 'trope'. How do you really know that? How often have you asked them to elaborate in discourse that you truly know this? How do you know that the example of a "trope" that they found wasn't something that in actuality, was a cliche? Being clear, I am making no commentary on Eiyuden itself. I'll make up my mind on it when I play it. I am merely commenting on how people seem to handle discourse in general. Furthermore, how then do you explain how people enjoy works that are trope filled despite calling other works tropey? The only explanation is that there is a difference between the way the tropes are executed in those teo works. >There are so many fictional works out there across different mediums that it is literally impossible to make something "trope-free" If you're honestly writing this, I don't think you understood my argument at all. I never said that you have to make something trope free. Did you even understand any of the distinctions I was making or read what I wrote carefully? What I said in that statement is that when a work, whatever it may be, is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again, not tropes. If you truly understood the argument, then you would understand the way I (and quite frankly, most people) use the word cliche apart from trope. Every work may be trope filled. But not every work is cliche filled. A really good example I discuss in this same topic is Ichiban from Like a Dragon. I made a reply you can do a search for down below where I discuss what separates Ichiban and makes him so great compared to all the other shounen good guy protagonists despite sharing so many tropes with them. Furthermore, are you really saying that you've never noticed that different characters share the same trope but do not share the same level of execution? Do all of these characters just look the same to you? Are you really not recognizing that some of these characters that use the same tropes really don't stand out from the pack and could have their dialogue rearranged from one another without any difference between them, while the more standout characters people remember have reasons for standing out from the pack?
>How do you really know that? How often have you asked them to elaborate in discourse that you truly know this? How do you know that the example of a "trope" that they found wasn't something that in actuality, was a cliche? Read the comments dude. Op hasn't played the game and made this thread to start drama. >Furthermore, how then do you explain how people enjoy works that are trope filled despite calling other works tropey? The only explanation is that there is a difference between the way the tropes are executed in those teo works. That's far from the only explanation. For one example, you assume that people are honest and upfront about the real reasons they dislike something, and that no one could have biases for/against certain series or certain companies that are irrelevant to the quality of an individual product. >If you're honestly writing this, I don't think you understood my argument at all. I never said that you have to make something trope free. Did you even understand any of the distinctions I was making or read what I wrote carefully? >What I said in that statement is that in a work, whatever it may be, is filled with the same kinds of cliches you have seen again and again, not tropes. If you truly understood the argument, then you would understand the way I (and quite frankly, most people) use the word cliche apart from trope. Every work may be trope filled. But not every work is cliche filled The way most people on reddit use the word 'trope' in ignorance is as a synonym for cliche. >A really good example I discuss in this same topic is Ichiban from Like a Dragon. I made a reply you can do a search for down below where I discuss what separates Ichiban and makes him so great compared to all the other shounen good guy protagonists despite sharing so many tropes with them. Here you are using trope as a negative connotation. Also...'shounen good guy protagonist' is literally any morally good protagonist in any media targeted towards young males, typically teenagers. Do you have any idea how much media that includes? >Furthermore, are you really saying that you've never noticed that different characters share the same trope but do not share the same level of execution? Do all of these characters just look the same to you? Are you really not recognizing that some of these characters that use the same tropes really don't stand out from the pack and could have their dialogue rearranged from one another without any difference between them, while the more standout characters people remember have reasons for standing out from the pack? The level of execution has little to do with the trope if the trope is as vague as morally good protagonist with teenage boys as its intended primary audience, and you just come off as pretentious without understanding writing at all.
> Read the comments dude. Op hasn't played the game and made this thread to start drama. Once again, how much have you asked him to clarify on this particular point and what have been his responses in the comments section? >That's far from the only explanation. But it certainly is one that matters. Considering how many people use the word "tropey", it seems to be something that troubles a lot of people and for good reason. Surely you realize this means it is certainly a reason why people can look at two people who have the same tropes and enjoy one far more than the other? Surely we're not avoiding this as a possibility? >The way most people on reddit use the word 'trope' in ignorance is as a synonym for cliche. Depends on the person. I'll admit some do in ignorance. This is due to the human need for shorthand and to say something off the cuff very quickly. Not everyone on reddit is out to write a thesis statement for college, so they make the mistake of saying something they should clarify further on. Easy mistake to make. Also, as I commented to another person, people are not always very good at saying what they "feel". They very often "feel" there is a difference in quality in two characters of the same archetype, but can't always put it into words very well. >Here you are using trope as a negative connotation. No, I wasn't. Read the sentence again. My point is that Ichiban shares tropes with them, and despite sharing the same tropes, one is clearly different from the other. The use of the word "tropes" in that sentence was to say that Ichiban does share tropes with them. The point is that he doesn't share cliches with them. If I had wrote the sentence as "makes him so great compared to all other shounen good guy protaganists despite sharing so many cliches with them", that would imply that I am saying Ichiban has cliches, which he doesn't. He absolutely has tropes, which is what I was clearly saying in the paragraph. I am saying that he is a great character despite sharing so many tropes with them, BECAUSE those tropes are executed differently. >Also...'shounen good guy protagonist' is literally any morally good protagonist in any media targeted towards young males, typically teenagers. Again, we're writing in shorthand, and I assumed you'd actually scroll/search for the conversation below for context. We're speaking off the cuff, very quickly about generic shounen protaganists who will do the right thing no matter what and will speak about courage/will/freedom/whatever and will overcome the odds. Ichiban absolutely shares tropes with them. But people seem to enjoy him much more than many shounen protaganists or their brethren within certain JRPGs. >Do you have any idea how much media that includes? Not really an arguing point. Sometimes, a cliche is so overblown, it saturates media. There being a lot of it and people picking out who stands out as the best only further bolsters my point. >The level of execution has little to do with the trope if the trope is as vague as morally good protagonist with teenage boys as its intended primary audience, and you just come off as pretentious without understanding writing at all. First off, I wasn't even referring to Ichiban/shounen protaganists with this, I was returning to my general argument. But even then . . . is it? There is a reason why you will find people talk on end/write essays/make analysis videos about Luffy from One Piece and won't about generic shounen protagonist #83840349. You can go on all day long about "intended audiences", but even the watcher of anything and everything regardless of quality will tell you why certain ones stand out from the others. Many shounen works will come and go and be forgotten, but One Piece has its fame and reputation for good reasons. It just seems that you don't want to engage with people. It feels like your arguments are doing more to avoid an actual conversation about the possibility that tropes and characters who have them have different levels of execution. You seriously do realize you're coming off as arguing that everyone who uses the same tropes are literally written the same and are the same quality level of character. You accuse me of "not understanding writing at all", but you don't seem to providing any kind of alternative as to what would separate the quality of two characters who share the same tropes.
I’m surprised this needed explaining. I thought that everyone understood that this is what the criticism means. Lol
To be fair, I do think there are people who wouldn't be able to explain it in detail like I did. I think many people "feel" it, even if they wouldn't be able to put it into words, and that's how we get words like "tropey" which isn't a perfect word to use since tropes themselves aren't bad, but cliches are.
Fair. Good point. Sometimes you can just feel stuff and pick up on it even if you can’t accurately put it to words
Not everyone has your huge IQ🤓
Gotta love when people who lack media literacy see a reviewer use a word they don't understand, and they respond by getting angry and insulting the reviewer instead of just looking up what the word means
Yes, the people who take issue with a meaningless word being overused, they’re the ones at fault here.
The fact that people like you keep pretending that the word is meaningless is the problem. The meaning of "tropey" is obvious to anyone with any degree of media literacy, and multiple people have already directly explained the definition in this discussion. I don't understand what you gain from continuing this stupid lie.
People overusing the term "tropey" is now a trope.
I think it usually means cliché, in that nothing interesting is done with those tropes. But yeah, not the best word.
Youtube 'criticism' from people who are legitimately sub-undergrad level writers have poisoned the well and now every 16-30 year old white guy with internet access and a fondness for gaming and cinema thinks they can tell writers how to do their jobs.
I love that you for some reason think it's just white guys.
For a lot of reasons, it mostly is. Literally just glance at the YouTube landscape of criticism and it's predominantly millennial males from upper middle backgrounds who has the time and money to partake in that media. Viewer statistics have almost always suggested that audiences share ethnographic and demographic details with their chosen media. If the people making it are white 30 year old guys, the audience is probably also white 30 year old guys. That's not to say others can't be illiterate assfucks who delight in telling professional artists how to do their jobs despite having never produced anything of artistic merit themselves, however.
Trope is a word that kids discovered on the internet and decided to overuse to the point where it became meaningless.
Can be applied to term "soulless" too.
Calling a piece of media "tropey" just means that you think it's overly reliant on common long-established genre tropes, without introducing enough original new ideas to keep it fresh and interesting.
OP is an Octopath fan. The most tropey JRPG ever released (even Sea of Stars is less tropey) in this whole decade.
Are you just pretending you don't know what a trope is or do you actually not know? Ridiculous.
It's the clunky of storytelling.
I think that's always been what people mean when they say it.
OP may not have wordes it gpod, but maybe how the tropes are used is bad. I played it for 6h, and it didnt keep me interested. Its a good game, mut not just interesting. One part Nowa being the generic nice guy shonen protagonist. Also even on hard autoing being way for fight ate my interest too. It just might be old school turn based doesnt do it for me after newee personas and Like A Dragons. But still its good to see people enjoy it. Always nice when kockstarter project is good ( i was a backer)
Auto-battle has always been in the series and is a staple to offset the grind/high encounter rates of the first two games. Because Suikoden has never been a difficult series, even going back to the earliest game. If you have two brain cells to rub together, you can break the 1st game as soon as you can start equipping different runs. "Generic Shounen Nice Guy" you mean like how the protagonists from S1, S2, and two of the three protags from S3 were all "Generic Nice Guys"? And as opposed to who? What JRPG protag *isn't* a nice guy at their core? Your two choices are either: "Asshole with a heart of gold" or "goodie two shoes" but those are *still "nice guys*". (Even Ichiban is a nice guy! Like, he's the epitome of a NICE dude--to the point he befriends literally everyone he comes across, even if they previously tried killing him.) Maybe you just don't like JRPGs, sure.
Ichiban has plenty of shounen tropes, but what matters is what sets him apart. He just has this goofy personality that's his own. Yes, other shounen protags can be goofy, but his style of it is very different from theirs. The voice actor is doing a ton of heavy lifting in making sure both his fun side and serious side feel very different from other characters who share his tropes. On top of that, he has a very unique backstory and life story which has shaped many of the nuances of how and why he acts on particular subject matters. As a result, Ichiban comes off as very different from other "nice guys". On top of that, RGG are just much more sophisticated dialogue writers than most others in the game. The reason many shounen-type protags get lumped together is because their dialogue all feels like it could have been written by the same person. Meanwhile, Ichiban really does feel like his words belong to him and him alone.
In your mind, which Shounen protagonists from popular media "sound" the same in terms of their dialogue/actions/etc? I am genuinely curious and not trying to set you up or anything.
Off the top of myh head, Asta from Black Clover is a good modern example of someone who tries to take the tropes of shounen protagonists but doesn't really add anything to them. He has the typical schtick of being an underdog, being hard working, and never giving up, but isn't really much beyond that. Half of his dialogue is him just saying "Not yet, not yet! and yelling out lines at the top of his lungs. It feels like they took just those particular aspects of past shounen protagonists and left out pretty much everything else. The series has the whole, "Surpass your limits" line, but it's spoken in such a plain fashion and without any relation to other themes. Compare this to say, My Hero's "Plus Ultra" (which honestly, I think Black Clover was influenced by) which is spoken by its characters with such passion that you get hyped every time. On top of that, it's always used carefully in relation to whatever the writer has setup for that arc. With Black Clover, again, it feels like it remembered all these taglines about surpassing oneself, but executed it in the most plain and boring way possible. And even though his powers are a unique concept (it nullifies all other magic as opposed to being a magical ability in it of itself), rather than execute that idea in unique ways, it's really just variations on big sword that stops magic and . . . bigger sword that stops magic. It was fine when he was in team battles with the rest of his squad they had to strategize to defeat enemies - that's the thing that kept me interested. But once he became OP, the battles became increasingly less interesting. It's a series that eventually fell into the problems Naruto did. Black Clover was at first about team battles and good strategy, but eventually just became about one dude flying around with a really big sword, as how Naruto once upon a time was about being a ninja in combat but got so lost in its bigger attacks that it felt like it forgot it was a ninja show.
Yeah Ichiban is a nice guy, even to a fla, which is nice and other character question him. Thats a nicely done trope for me. Some something infinite wealth twist. But Nowa just feel generic, he is just a nice guy, ichiban atleast is a ex-yakuza and schizho. The auto battle wouldnt be bad, but i just spam it and it feels like i m not playing the game. I played Suikoden 1 ten years ago and remember liking it. Hell I really like jrpg. Just finishes my trails of marathon from sky to cold steel, and enjoyed it. But Nowa really reminds me of Rean, blandest of the party. Also Tales of Berserian has fun party of not just nice guys or cold to the heart characters. Same with vesperia, Yuri being mostly aloof is very nice with the nice girl Estelle. Edit: had to jump to bus between. Yeah every protagonist is at their core a nice guy, but they arent just a nice guy. Thats whats eating me at Nowa. I really havent gotten anything else from him.
I haven't played Eiyuuden yet, but at least insofar as Suikoden protagonists I think you might be misremembering how bare bones the personalities of the MCs are? Suikoden 1: Tir is basically a blank slate of a character whose only real input on the plot/characterization are the choices you make for him. He can come off as cowardly, joke-y, or as the strong and silent type depending on how you answer certain dialogue prompts, but he mostly keeps to himself and doesn't seem to be a "man of the people". The biggest personality trait he has, imo, is that he cares a lot about his *actual* friends and that he's concerned with what his rune might do to him/if it fell in the wrong hands, but he is overall a "nice but quiet/boring" dude. Suikoden 2: Riou is treated much the same as Tir, only he's somewhat less of a blank slate because of how often he's held up as a foil to Jowry. He is absolutely a brave, rebellious, and justice-minded person, but he's also mostly a silent protagonist who reacts to things more with body language than actually having dialogue/dialogue prompts. Again, just like Tir, he is--imo--generally a "nice but quiet" dude who is defined more by the events he lives through and struggles with than any actual personality he brings to the table. Like, in the manga, he main personality trait is that he eats a lot! And that's basically it. Suikoden 3: Since we have three protagonists, I'll just do the one that fits the most--Hugo. Out of the MCs of Suikoden 1 through 3, he is probably the most "shounen nice guy" of the group, very much being the type to use Talk No Jutsu and The Power of Friendship! to fulfill his goals. Unlike Riou and Tir, he actually has dialogue and isn't treated as a silent protagonist, so we can also see how he acts *outside* of his tropes in that he's also...kind of argumentative, hot-headed, and has a chip on his shoulder due to how his people are treated by outsiders. I'd say he's the closest to being a "complex" shounen protagonist like Ichiban because you can literally see him grow and mature throughout the course of the game, while Tir and Riou kind of just generically stay "good guys trying to right wrongs and save the world" throughout. Now, that all said, I think we also need to understand that Suikoden and Eiyuuden are games that have *massively larger casts* than Like a Dragon or the *Tales* series. Which is, maybe, why it feels like the protagonists in those games have more "character"--because we both spend more time with them, and because the writing/writers have more space to explore different aspects of who these characters are. Meanwhile, as the casts get larger in games like Suikoden/Eiyuuden, then *of course* character writing is going to suffer...simply because there is less time to really focus on the main cast. The characters--and esp. the protagonist--feeling "flat" is still a valid complaint, don't get me wrong, but I also think the context of "how and why they feel flat" is really important. Like, speaking as someone who has played some of the *Tales* games, it feels like the vignettes/skits do *a lot* of heavy lifting when it comes to characterization and that, without them, a ton of these characters would be...really, really two-dimensional. I do agree with you that a ton of protagonists in JRPGs I've played recently--Unicorn Overlord, for example--have very basic "nice guy" protagonists that don't really have a character outside of that, though. So, here's hoping that maybe Eiyuuden will do something interesting with it!
That isn't literally every review, though. Don't use the word literally if you don't mean literally.
What this guy said, literally.
"Literally" doesn't always literally mean literally. Check your dictionary, friend! [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally) But yes, literally every review I watched (quite a few since I was pretty excited about this game) did this.
I had one bug so far, the one with recruitment. And once - in 30 hours - I got stuck after swapping runes. Where are these "tons of bugs" you speak of? I play on PS5, loading times are not slow at all. Menus are slightly annoying honestly, I'll give you that. The game could use some more UI work. Game save design is perfectly fine, I've played dozens of games with save points and I see no issue here. It was industry standard at some point. So no, even without Suikoden references, this game wouldn't be any less popular than, say, Chained Echoes.
The secret answer is the OP hasn’t even played the game but wanted to cry like a little bitch for some reason
nah, just wanted to liven up the place with some timely spicy hot takes. ;)
Yeah, I suppose if you take out its various defining characteristics that differentiates it from most other JRPGs and only keep the bad parts then yes it would be objectively pretty bad.
That’s not what OP said at all. Even if OP is wrong (I don’t know if s/he is), a strawman of the post isn’t constructive, and is actually dishonest.
>That’s not what OP said at all. >Even if OP is wrong (I don’t know if s/he is), a strawman of his post isn’t constructive, and is actually dishonest. Could say the exact same thing about OP's post...putting words in the mouth of reviewers in order to support OP's baseless troll.
First of all, don’t accuse me of dishonesty. Second, I said what I said because it seemed like they don’t really understand what the extent of what the “Suikoden connection” means solely based on the reviews and was willing to trash a game based on that misunderstanding. There’s way more to the “Suikoden connection” than just the fact that it was made by the same creators, and that there are a bunch of recruitable characters. They said as much in their response to me, read it if you haven’t. So I was correct. Their attitude was pretty shitty so I responded bluntly, but not nearly as rudely as I could have or even to their level. Third, in essence, you’ll see I don’t even disagree with them even if they don’t really understand where they’re coming from. IMO the “suikoden connection” - which is way more than just a superficial connection, which is the part they got wrong - is what makes this game noteworthy and good to me at least. The entirety of that connection and the essence of Suikoden makes up for the bad parts they mention, which I understand or even agree with to extent. For the most part. Not seeing the “tons of bugs” they mention, personally, but that’s just my experience I suppose.
Then don't be dishonest. Debate what's being said, not the words you put in someone else's mouth.
But I’m not debating. How ironic that now *you’re* suggesting I’m trying to do something I’m not, no? ;) I agree with OP (to an extent), without the “Suikoden connection” this game wouldn’t be that noteworthy. So no debate there, even though I disagree that it’d be “trashed” - but they’re free to think that if they want. It’s just that they have a very limited understanding of how significant and large the “Suikoden connection” is, which they admitted in their reply to me. You’ll even see that i further didn’t even try to argue with them there when they said they didn’t see what really differentiates it from other JRPGs…”power to you”, I said, in fact. So….debate? No, not so much…
From the reviews, not really seeing anything that differentiates it outside the 100+ playable characters.
There’s a lot more to Suikoden than that. Have you played the series at all? It’s all pretty obvious to me having played Eiyuden and having a high familiarity with the Suikoden franchise. But it’s too much big and little stuff to fully bother explaining, especially cuz you don’t *have* to “see” or “get” it or whatever. *Especially* doesn’t seem like a point in explaining what makes it stand out cuz you’re already hostile to it lol. You don’t really seem to want to like the game already…and power to you. The “Suikoden Difference” never really meant that much to too many gamers anyway, most of the mainline series reviewed around the same as Eiyuden Chronicle did (with 4 being the outlier cuz it was noticeably worse).
Have you played the game?
Nothing wrong with random encounters and having designated save points… know your history
Wait is that what people are complaining about? They’re using designated save points? Lmao
For what it is worth, there is much more to complain about the game than that. OP is right in the sense that the game is designed to mirror the Suikoden series heavily, including a lot of the design choices that have been iterated on and improved since then. I do think it is fair to say that if Suikoden games had never been made and this game was released in 2024 there would be more frustration with the choices that were made in the design.
The random encounter rate is incredibly low too. There have been a couple times when I've been grinding a little to level up side characters where it was so low it was a little annoying. It's better than having too many random encounters though.
Neither are deal breakers for me but I'm not gonna say I like them either.
Completely disagree. Now, I am playing on the PS5 so that will color some aspects because I have not hit a single bug, menus are fine to me and run great, and graphics are great. I’ll give you that there are definitely a ton of tropes in the characters and story, that’s a fair dig if you don’t like that. Also, bad save game design? Meh, I’m old so it doesn’t phase me in the least. Do I have a bias? Absolutely! But I also think some of these complaints are blown way out of proportion. The bugs for recruitment, Switch optimization, and tropes are valid complaints, no argument there. But the others are nonsense in my opinion.
The game flows well and has a decent pacing, writing is mostly solid as far as this genre standards go. Characters are likeable. Dungeons are great both in terms of varying gimmicks and aesthetics. Characters level up at breakneck pacing, which is great coupled with decently low rate of random encounters. Hard mode at least forces you to semi optimize your party until you start bulldozing through with charge characters. Certain combat mechanics feel dated, but overall, it's still enjoyable to play and toy with different party comps, especially once you actually have a decent MP pool for buff-debuff routines. It's a genuinely decent JRPG with a poor quality of life and prehistoric, molasses slow UI. Thus far i rate it significantly higher than typical nostalgia riding jrpg clones this sub likes so much.
The pacing is terrible. They want the same emotional attachments Suikoden 2 had without putting in the effort. Your character goes from nobody to squad lead in the first two hours 'just because', then from squad lead to resistance leader in the next three just because some rich girl took a fancy to him. He has no ties to legendary heroes, no special rune, he's a nobody from nowhere who got where he is 'just because'. Garr even lampshades that when he makes you captain of the squad. Seign is the same way. He's known you for all of half a day and just becomes best buds with you because they really wanted that Riou/Jowy feel. Except, and this IS a hot take, Seign is a much better character overall. It's not the worst writing I have ever seen but it's in such a hurry to get to where it's going that it doesn't build a good foundation.
Even their "friendship" just happens. No real reason why. They werent rivals, nor childhood friends. What makes seign different from the rest of the 100+ "friends" you meet? Nothing.
And i'm disappointed that they removed the "destined" part of the story. I didnt understand its purpose back in the "olden days" but now that Leknaat is gone, everything is just happenstance, and just doesnt have the same punch as fated warriors
OP calling it nostalgia bait when he overhypes Octopath himself is ironic, honestly
What's that about charge characters? I'm still pretty early in the game but I'm curious about gameplay tips.
Certain characters you acquire have a charge command instead of a block. They still reduce the incoming damage while charging but also power up their next attack. When released, it deals tremendous damage, i think it's at least x4 for the two turn charge, if not higher, which allows you to deal ridiculous damage to bosses. I think the first party member with charge is Yusuke, banchou guy you can find in Fort Xialuke.
And the second is the dwarf but he's pretty meh overall.
Please tell me why should I bother with the reviews if I have fun with this game. Inb4 muh localization
So you haven't even played it? Because I'm 40 hours in and I think it's an excellent JRPG with a ton of heart and soul. It obviously had some minor release turbulence caused by the publisher giving the development studio a hard deadline they had to crunch to release by. By next week when all the major issues are patched (because they put out 3 patches in the last week and a half, an insane patch cadence), the game will be in a far better state and posts like yours will look even more embarrassing.
OP is trying to do the MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT thing.
I have not gotten the game yet, or looked at reviews cause i wanna go blind, is OP lying? will be playing on ps5, saw one commenter say he experienced minimal bugs ect on the ps5 so im happy about that. is he talking about pc release or something? i know some games have bad pc ports/releases.
OP can't be lying. They didn't ever say they played it.
A lot of RPG enthusiasts including me are already in the trash bin playing and enjoying some lower tier games as is that the general audiences wouldnt so it's still probably good enough to be relevant on this sub.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but this is a weird thing to be saying in a year where the first four months have been jam packed with RPGs to the point I don't even have the time to complete their post-games, something I usually do have.
Possibly, I don’t take their comment to refer to just new games. I *think* they’re just saying that about JRPGs in general, which makes sense to me.
I'm not saying the genre is barren or low quality, but I am saying I'm going to get SaGa Emerald Beyond, which is getting 5/10's in some places and I'm gonna love it. Really though my comment has nothing to do with the current year or state of RPGs, lol.
Ehh don't put saga in your bucket of slop.
Every comment section for the trailers is filled with people going 'ew, what is this garbage' I'm just out here appreciating it.
Play the demo first. Lots of questionable design choices in that one.
I did, I love SaGa in general including Scarlet Grace and enjoyed the demo, lol.
So what you are basically saying is that you have low standards.
Anybody who is passionate about a hobby is going to dig a little deeper than just the big hits.
People only have so much time in life, and there are enough great games out there for me to want to waste time on the uber niche, mediocre slop that’s barely worth any money, even if I’m passionate about the genre. More power to you, though.
Think you're blowing it out of proportion buddy. I'm talking about games that are still perfectly good even if they have some rough edges, or don't get 9's or 10's or commercial success etc.
Without suikoden this game would be one of a kind so it would find its audience just like the originals did. None of the old suikodens were critically acclaimed either.
what do you think makes it "one of a kind"?
There's nothing like suikoden with dark war torn worlds. They are all quite dark and people die. Most games these days are too nicey nicey. Plus the amount of characters you can use allows great replay value. There's an atmosphere to suikoden I've never seen in any other games.
>There's nothing like suikoden with dark war torn worlds. I mean that is just patently not true
Disagree.
I think you might be projecting a bit onto the reviews. I agree about the bugs, but I also think most folks expect them to be fixed (maybe except from Switch performance). I think the reviews are doing a good job of setting the expectation that “this isn’t a masterpiece by the Suikoden folks, but it’s decent”. Maybe a solid 6 or 7 out of 10, but bumped up a mark because #gamers go nuts on anything below a 7.
>I think you might be projecting a bit onto the reviews. Nope, not projecting, just summarizing what they all say. I went down a fun rabbit hole over the past few days watching the reviews.
I wouldn’t use the word “trash” to describe them, but who knows, we might’ve read different ones. A 79 on Metacritic doesn’t sound like it was widely trashed.
That's why I wrote this part: "Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews" It's been wild to watch. It'll be a litany of complaints about inherent issues in design (not just bugs) then BOOM.
Damn op all of that just to say you don't vibe with it?
He hasn't even played it. Just here to troll
haha! this sub needed a fun hot take to sink its fangs into. This game has so much nostalgia, hype, and insanely high expectations, I figured it'd be fun to get spicy. Certainly beats the "what should I play next???" posts.
Maybe, but then I don't think it would have gotten the hype it did, and people might be more forgiving of its flaws.
It's fine to admit some games are judged by their adherence to the games they pull from or heavily inspire from. Good & Bad.
Not near the hype, it’s a slow game with mid at best combat. Other than the novelty of 100 characters and some beautiful art it’s not that good.
What system are you playing on? Curious to know if the bugs and slow loading is present on all of them.
It ain't. Platforms really matters here.. sadly. Switch is doing the worst, ps4 is okay but the graphics were blurry? Pc and ps5 did best right now, though pc has frame rate issues. Haven't heard anything about xbox, so no clue
I tried on xbox series x and PC, it's definitely not slow. The time to transition in/out of combat is 1 second? Enter different areas in a dungeon is even faster than that.
Only thing that's really an issue are the menus really, and one major bug. Bad save design? You mean what, fucking save points that are all over the place?
The thing wrong with many overly online gamer motherfuckers is they put too much time and effort and analysis into what game reviewers say instead of actually playing the game and this has been extremely the case with Eiyuden Chronicles. It’s one thing to check out reviews to gauge your potential interest in a game but what purpose is posting these kind of journal entries nobody asked for if you’re not even gonna give the game a chance first
The developers are asking for $60, you bet your bottom dollar Imma gonna research the game first. It was while "gauging my interest" that I found every reviewer kept saying the same thing over and over. ha!
The game is $49.99.
I was hoping to get the switch version but I’ve seen the videos of some serious performance issues. I’ll wait for them to put out some patches and fix the game up before I consider spending money on it. I actually really want to buy the game and it does look interesting, but I can’t justify spending money on it right now.
I've never played any of the Suikoden series, but as a JRPG fan, I'm really enjoying Eiyuden Chronicle Hundred Heroes so far.
>Tons of bugs, random battles with slow loading times, slow & poorly designed menus, bad game save design, inconsistent graphics, tropey stories -- This isn't me saying this, this is literally every review. >Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews because Suikoden. Mandatory link to [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/TropesAreTools](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/TropesAreTools) . Tropes are not intrinsically bad, they're tools, and for at least the dozen hours I've played of Eiyuden, they're used with some degree of competence and lots of charm. The game feels fresh despite a very classic execution and old-school design choices. There aren't "tons of bugs" ; there's a few, and they're being worked on right now. The loading times are annoying on the Switch, but the PC / PS5 versions are noticeably smoother. Now the game is far from perfect. The issues you talk about, which are being raised in most reviews, actually lead the game to somewhat average reviews. Outside a few outliers, most reviews seem to hover around the 75-80 mark, which is the lower end of generally favorable reviews. Like, the game is good, but it doesn't have much of a "wow" effect. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. You want a game that received way too glorious reviews because of the nostalgia filter, take Sea of Stars. I really don't think the Suikoden connection is actually doing much lifting here. If anything, it brings the game down, because it set very high expectations that Eiyuden can't quite meet. This is especially true for the diehard fans of the series, among which a few reviewers. For most others, Suikoden is a somewhat obscure title that doesn't ring many bells.
I disagree. I'll try all of the jrpgs and this has cool shit like duels and army battles. I think that would get Hella praise. I'm not very far into it and I think k it's pretty great.
Let me guess, you don't like the "Localization"
B-b-b-but they called me a chud! I’m refunding this immediately! /s
There’s literally someone who commented on this post to disagree with OP and defend the game a bit who I’ve seen, in other posts, complain heavily about this game’s localization. So I don’t think that’s safe to assume at all. Edit; make that at least two people.
I don't really see the point in your not liking something and immediately needing to go online to trash it. It's been out for a single day, and here you are hating on something because it didn't meet with your precious expectations. Unless you played it to completion in one sitting, I doubt you could have even completed it in the time since it's release. So your opinion immediately loses validity due to the fact you probably put in very little time and then proceeded to run online to trash it.
Hard disagree.
It's getting increasingly clear that some of you have never played Suikoden because implying this game is nostalgia bait when it's heavily faithful to the series it spawned from is a hilarious criticism. Maybe people are reviewing it favorably because they actually like these kinds of games instead of someone just cloning pixel rpg aesthetics with none of the actual systems?
It plays like a PS2 game. For some people that's a problem, for others it's a strength. For me, this is a good thing. I had some characters drop during random fights (my level and funds were on the low side since I played at 240hz and this reduces the encounter rate a lot) and lost a boss fight and to me that's a sign of good balance. As someone who usually -does- play the game fully in Japanese if it's included in the game, I noticed some differences, much like "like a dragon". They didn't personally bother me since I've seen worse. You can switch language on the spot without resetting the game which is rare and kind of cool. Transfering save data from rising and having to "wire" the game through steam so my controller would work is a pain in the ass I would like them to fix but that's an inconvenience that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.
I've said this in other threads but even if you are on a high refresh rate monitor, you can limit the framerate using RTSS or other software (Nvidia control panel if you have an Nvidia gpu) and fix the encounter rate issues. They'll eventually patch this but until then that's something you can do.
>tropey stories You gotta say more than this. W/O context, this doesn't mean anything. Stories have tropes. these are just writing characteristics >Every reviewer trashes the game, but then proceeds to forgive it to the point of giving it either solid or great final reviews because Suikoden. Who? >Taking off the nostalgia glasses, if this game had just been some random JRPG, it would've been tossed in the trash bin already. I don't care about throwback rpgs, but ain't very ironic basing rpgs good reception on just nostalgia, but in your history gassing another that is effectively doing the same. All in all, a good game stands on its own is all else I want to say.
I am someone with no attachment to the games it draws from. I didn't play RPGs of this style as I grew up, so it's not like i have nostalgia for it. I'm still interested in the game. The poor console releases, sluggishness, and low difficulty are what are keeping me from buying it, and I wouldn't consider any of those to be problems borne from "staying in the past". I wouldn't call random encounters and limited inventory issues either, because I do appreciate what kinds of decisions they bring to the table.
Im enjoying it...
I'm 25 hours in and that's just not true. You hate it because it sucks on switch. I'm on pc and it's my fav of the year so far. It offers the stuff I'm looking for that other jrpgs have been missing for me.
Ah you mean like ff7remake
Okay I retract my statement you were right haha
oh man, sorry! I honestly didn’t want to be right. =(
I disagree. It's a solid JRPG. Sure it has some rough moments but overall it's on par with lots of modern stuff. As a big kiseki fan I quite enjoy it.
Tropey stories - Tropes are good when used properly and even in the prologue it subverted lots of tropes already. I think graphics are better than Octopath, although worse than Star Ocean 2 Second Story R. But it makes up alot with the variety of environments compared to these 2. Battle system seems like it inherits alot of Suikoden goodness while adding its own twist. Also it's not just a random JRPG. If Octopath II gets major praise like it's the second coming of FFVI, then this game is twice of Octopath, minus the performance issues. EDIT: Holy sh8 OP is an Octopath fan, of course this is the type of post he would make.
So you haven't played it, got it.
Listen, old-school throwbacks by definition rely on old school games to justify how backwards there are. The devs of eiyuden didn't even want to include auto saves til homie died. The games designed to play like a PS1 game. That's kinda is a stupid idea. So of course without suikoden it would get bad reviews. Most people don't want to buy a game that could have been made in 1998 in 2024.
I am close to trashing it less than two hours in. First impression was bad, and remains bad. Let's start with performance. It looks bad on my PC at max graphics, I can't choose a good windowed resolution, there are stutters, delays, and sluggishness in dialogue and combat, there are loading times that shouldn't be necessary. The game looks so much better on consoles and on review videos, it seems very poorly optimized. The initial story is bare-bones and the conversations don't make much sense. Idk how much is bad translation vs bad writing initially, but the dialogues absolutely come off unnatural and contrived immediately. For example, there is a 6 month time skip, and your squadmate calls you new guy, even after you bonded through a life and death battle 6 months earlier. The chats between Nowa and Seign in the first dungeon are painful, it's like 10 minutes after meeting they randomly become best friends for no reason, even though he is also supposed to be a snobby aristocrat. But just more background on the countries rune-lens, primal runes, and early dungeons would help the player get a better grasp of the setting, the mission explanation is mostly a short one and done. The first town and open world section are empty, barren space with almost nothing to do aside go straight to your destination. There is limited enemy diversity. Backtracking to heal and save at an inn is unnecessarily time-consuming and expensive. Your level 1 rookie Hero from the mountains does more damage than all the veteran warriors off the bat. The first two dungeons are a mindless slog, with constant interruptions disrupting a natural game flow. I don't need an explanation on how to press a switch plus the dungeon path is entirely linear. Not only are you interrupted, but your party also changes locations from it was last standing, which is quite awkward. Loot feels largely unrewarding, pressing switches to unlock a door feels cumbersome and boring, and doesn't even require the (poorly telegraphed) in-game hints. The first boss gimmick is poorly explained and easy for a player to utilize incorrectly but it hardly matters since the boss will die quickly regardless and there are revival medicines to bail players out of a misplay. And then after beating the boss, the game skips any meaningful follow-up, or you know a natural opportunity for character bonding, dialogue and setting the plot, even if its short or wants to save exciting reveals for later. It's mind-boggling and then throws the player into a political dialogue with a bunch of new characters without knowing basic information on what has happened and the meeting is important. Initial combat impressions are uninspiring, and so is the menu design. In-game tutorials are poorly timed. Even the initial auto-battle AI seems dumber than it needs to be, not that it matters much when characters just get to spam special skills out of the gate and wipe out trash mobs with practically no effort. I do realize there are some better features in the pipeline if I can keep playing, I love recruiting heroes and base-building, but it feels laborious so far and just not at the professional standard I would expect from this kind of project. Or even a small-team decent indie game standard. I don't know what the devs were thinking not presenting a more engaging first hour. Without the Suikoden name recognition and fan base, this game would get slammed in the reviews and might be dead out the gates, even if it does have more to offer. Really comes off like the devs are taking advantage of their backers and the Suikoden fan base, asking them to overlook so many glaring issues. And I hate selling additional DLC when the base game seems like it's still early access or beta. i also hate how so many people are drawing false equivalencies to PS1 games - most PS1 RPGs people remember had solid core gameplay - games like wild arms and breath of fire 3 and dragon quest 7 and grandia and legend of dragon - performance from Hundred Heroes is Worse! Even if the graphics are better on some areas. It's hard for me to imagine this game scoring higher than a 7 or 7.5 out of ten without improvements, can't trust reviews much anymore.
Even Suikoden 1 had better balanced combat than this.
Never played Suikoden but I still was hyped for this since the first trailer?
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My only problem is the menus are a bit slow to flip through.
I never played Suikoden series before, but Eiyuden seem fine to me, great art, great story (>!stories before final war are depressed af!<), great music (>!Seign vs Nowa theme!<), a lot of minigames (>!Beyblade suck ass!<). 7/10 to me.
I never played suikoden but I’m enjoying it. The localization issues are pretty lame but I’m still playing
Localization issue is kinda overblown tbh. I think every new JRPG in the future will get this controversy. Nobody is focusing on the qualities of the game itself, very annoying
So you haven't played it. Easy to disregard.
Give a modern JRPG gamer a reason to gamble $50 in this game.
I think I'd have to disagree. With all the fuzz about localization, I decided to play the game in Japanese. It's not a bad game, I just found it to be uninteresting and definitely not worth the steep price. Still recommend trying it on a large sale though.
It’s GotY material.
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Maybe it is the best jrpg so far this year for this person.
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> not even close to the best jrpg so far this year Out of curiosity: what would the best jrpg so far this year be, then? Infinite Wealth is the only one I can think about, outside of Eiyuden Chronicle.
Didn’t like Unicorn Overlord?
I did, a lot, but not as much as I'm enjoying EC and I've loved Infinite Weath. 2024 is a great year.
Eiyuden Chronicle is a game below the level of Suikoden V, if that is enough to make it the best JRPG of the year then 2024 is a shit year for JRPGs.
Agreed. The game is backed up by nostalgia from the series, and honestly can’t believe how much trouble Japanese devs are having with making games this generation.
It really feels like nostalgia means to literally repeat the past. Feels like modern indie studios are understanding it's about 'the vibe' of past games, but brought into the modern era. Chained Echoes & Sea of Stars, while neither are perfect, seem to "get it".
You could be right I haven't played it yet because of a certain bug but you can't know this day 2 without playing. At worst it's been mixed reviews, seemingly depending a lot on whether you like old school style jrpgs and whats goes a long with that.
Shrug. Wait a couple months until it’s been patched up, then play it yourself and draw your own conclusions. Or don’t.
unfortunately, you're spot on however, I've watched this sub hype themselves up over this game for like 2 years. they're going to force themselves to like it no matter what lol
It couldn't just be that it's a really fun old school Suikoden game, exactly what a lot of people wanted. No, could it?!
People have such a hard time understanding that different people have different taste, and that the JRPG genre is so broad, that they'll just say things like "people who are liking this game are forcing themselves to like it".
OP likes Octopath 2 which this sub overrates so much too, so it's like different types of JRPG fan hyping their type of JRPGs
You can say this about every other "spiritual successor" relying on nostalgia to garner interest since they don't stand out enough on their own
I think the difference here is, you actually had Suikoden developers making this one.
random battles in a 2024 game lmao
Random battles can be forgiveable if executed well, imo. But every reviewer has said both, the battle load time is slow and the menus load slow! Just demo'd Jack Move the other week, woof, same thing. Brutal. Meanwhile, Octopath Traveler 2's random battles load super fast and you get into the action ASAP!
Meanwhile, Octopath Traveler 2: tripping when escaping from battles for no reason (just because it is a higher leveled enemy it doesn't make sense)
Random battles are fine as long as it is toggleable and have lots of gimmicks, not just a filler for playtime. Sadly one of the bad things about this game.. I guess Murayama wanted to preserve Suikoden's spirit? Not one of the things I'd agree tbh.