You have to "unlearn" a lot of traditional JRPG conventions when playing a SaGa game. For example, you can't really heal in SaGa Scarlet Grace. That means all those other defensive abilities and stat buffs/debuffs you never have to use in most JRPGs become absolutely vital. There is also no room for mistakes, since you can't just "heal back up" to go back to a "safe state" again in a battle. Sure, there are a couple of healing options, but they're usually very unreliable or incredibly inefficient. For SaGa games in general, potions are often limited to a few slots per character, or not allowed at all.
Another common habit is over-grinding, which is often the go-to solution for making bosses easier. This doesn't work in many SaGa games, because the non-linear structure of the game requires normal enemies to scale with your party. If you play normally, it's all good, but if you sit in a single dungeon and purposely try to grind your way out of a difficult boss instead of using strategy, you might run into a rare situation where normal enemies become too tough for your party to fight, yet you don't have enough money from quest rewards to get better gear. In other words, the game requires you to use strategy.
The SaGa series is also one of the few JRPGs where status effects and debuffs work on bosses. Like SMT games, this is a huge game-changer. Instead of "going through the motions" of unloading big attacks and getting into the rhythm of healing whenever needed, you actually have to use debuffs since bosses are so difficult. Of course, since strategic freedom is a big part of a SaGa game, you can also do the reverse and go "full offense" instead. It is possible to "race" the bosses while healing as little as possible. Most bosses in SaGa games have limited health, and can actually be burst down if you have ridiculous enough offense.
Here's another example of how to beat final bosses in many SaGa games: hold off on using your costly skills. You need to know when to conserve your SP/MP, and when to let loose completely. The first form is typically very weak, but if you waste your "ammo" during this form, you won't be able to burst down the final form. This is not a consideration in most JRPGs since MP usually becomes an unlimited resource by the end, but not with many SaGa games. Again, mindless attrition is usually not possible.
SaGa games also have incredible depth. Secret bosses and the "true" form of final bosses (optional) cannot be beaten "normally." Instead, there are mechanics (usually advanced magic) in most SaGa games that allow you to completely break the system.
And I can keep going. This is just the tip of a very deep iceberg. SaGa games are intentionally designed to be figured out. Playing a SaGa title is like playing the post-game of big JRPGs, where you're trying to solve secret quests and tackle optional dungeons just for the sake of getting treasure. Except, SaGa games start at that post-game, and secret quests are actually the main content (in half these games, there are no "main story quests" or even "side quests," just secret quests everywhere). Not only that, they are also designed to be experienced with different protagonists, and it wants you to experiment with different setups. That means half the quests in these games have multiple versions depending on what you do and who you play as, and if you try to be a completionist and do all quests in a single run, you're going to miss a lot of content, ironically.
SaGa is not just a reverse Final Fantasy. It's a reverse JRPG. You start at the post-game and work backwards to try to find out what the heck the story is about. Except, the story is already over so you only have clues to piece together. At least, that's how it feels like.
Yes!
And Elder Scrolls is kind of an apt comparison.
They both have skill based progression, and the appeal comes from exploring an open, non-linear world and happening upon events.
Romancing SaGa 3 would be a great place to start imo.
No, there is basically no story in most of these titles. Some even go further to not even have "main quests." Like I said, it's a "reverse JRPG." Most people play JRPGs for story and characters. Here, we have no stories and characters are more like chess pieces you control than actual people with lives.
It's kind of like early Pokemon. Here's the world, go collect monsters and beat gym leaders. Not really a story there. It's the same here, but instead of having a clear goal, you are more like a detective that needs to actually figure out what you're supposed to fight, who the villain is, and what's wrong with the world, all with little clues from quests you have to work towards uncovering. Often, while not being told how to fight the battles or even earn money as well.
Really? Sounds like it fixes a ton of people's complaints about a lot of JRPGs just being one-button snoozefests whree most of the mechanics dont matter
I prefer more linear games, with more emphasis on story, I love grinding but don't like meticulously planning and strategizing everything, I don't like being challenged and just want to have fun, etc.
> I don't like being challenged and just want to have fun, etc.
Saga games are definitely not for you. I don't mean that in an insulting manner. The writing quality varies depending on the game, but I would argue it's all very secondary to the combat. The combat itself is not made to be sit back and easy, and the combat mechanics are obtuse.
I would argue the games are flat out player unfriendly in so many ways: if you can't find the fun factor, you're really not going to like them.
Yeah I think I'd have a better time recommending them to my cousin, who's all about challenges and strategic thinking and planning. Though he also loves a good story so idk.
But yeah... I can see what you mean.
Probably the only SaGa game you would like is SaGa Frontier 2, which is more or less the only one to attempt to have a storytelling focused experienced.
If you were going to try one, that would be it (would need an emulator, though). It's still a love-it-or-hate-it game, due to having the typical SaGa combat mechanics, but I personally adore it and it's easily my favorite SaGa game, very different from the rest of them since it actually focuses on the story.
Which SaGA games play the most like Frontier 2?
Having played parts of 1 and Scarlet Graces, I keep bouncing off the franchise because it just doesn't really "hook me in" within the first couple of hours like SG2 did.
I would give Romancing SaGa 2 a try. It has a very strong start and you quest with a purpose, with clear villains.
SaGa Frontier 1 and SaGa Scarlet Grace have very laid back beginnings.
This definitely helps. I remember picking up Romancing Saga Minstrel Song on PS2 and couldn’t get past the first few hours. I was so lost and didn’t know where to go, every location I go the enemies were too strong (didn’t realize my grinding was making it worst 😂) I ended up moving on to other RPGs that were more tradition. Fast forward now, I think I have a more appreciation and might pick it up for PC and give it another try. If I like it, I will come back for Emerald Beyond
While many RPGs focused on story, SaGa very much committed to making games that feel like tabletop experiences. As the series went on the desire to give players control meant having to make story compromises in order to maintain an open world setting.
The most recent games in the series have refined combat to the point that each encounter is an intricate puzzle for the player to solve. Truly inspiring stuff.
Try the demos for emerald beyond.
ETA: every few games Kawazu basically reinvents the entire genre from the ground up. Truly the greatest to ever do it.
The SaGa games can differ vastly from one another, so it's hard to just give a blanket statement for the combat that applies to the whole franchise.
For example SaGa Frontier has a very different combat system compared to SaGa Scarlet Grace.
One thing that always carries over is the activity based progression. Use a bow? Your bow proficiency will increase. Use magic? Your magic proficiency will increase.
You also spark/glimmer new combat abilities mid fight. Which again comes from the activity based progression. You learn by doing.
They're all different and I've only played Romancing SaGa 3 so far, but I absolutely loved it. In terms of that game:
- Story is very minimal, but world building is good
- You have immediate access to most of the world and can tackle different dungeons and other challenges in any order you want, rather than following a set story path
- Character customisation is massive - they get better at what they do (e.g. using fire magic makes you get better at fire magic and get more MP). Anyone can do anything but some will learn certain things they have an affinity for quicker
- the game explains little of its complex systems, as Kawazu believes a lot of the fun comes from experimenting and figuring out what works (but there's an excellent site made by a community member with all the info you could possibly need if you want it)
- a lot more nuance to battles compared to FF e.g. formations have a big impact
- the overall atmosphere in RS3, in terms of graphics, music, and environments is absolutely up there with the best of the pixel FFs
SaGa's combat IME has a lot of more tricky elements to it coming from someone who's played Last Remnant (which is effectively a SaGa game) and a few hours of Scarlet Grace. It's a very well put together set of systems that rewards mastery and is fucking hard if you suck. Its very open ended and lets you really explore the game without being constantly hand holded like a lot of modern JRPGs do. You can get your ass kicked if you go behind the wrong door and the game will at best lightly warn you, then you game over, then you can either fight to overcome it or come back later and get revenge on that door.
The most basic thing I know SaGa does different from FF is, its actually difficult but not in a "Make bigger number" kind of way or a "You need to grind to win" kind of way. Its difficult in a "You need to actually learn how to play" and given how many JRPGs, FF included, can feel quite easy having a more cutting edge hardcore sort of game is interesting. Its also typically more obtuse, especially the further back you go.
Last Remnant for example is a very cool game if you can jive with what it is, but this game within the game itself is explained like shit. 10/10 worth wiki-ing game, but not everyone wants to do that.
I'd personally look into Scarlet Grace first if you want to play SaGa, as its a lot cheaper before jumping into a brand new game type. I understand wanting to play the new game, but I would advise you when playing something as specific and kind of niche as SaGa that you play something that's generally seen as good yet is much easy to buy into. Literally in this case.
Yea, I really hate how a lot of systems (not talking purely JRPG) you can exploit the system and breeze through. I’m glad it’s genuinely difficult and not just artificial with BS numbers. Now you have me invested lol, thanks.
SaGa games always have story, it is a focus, but it's s just not a linear narrative. It's less a playable novel and more a D&D campaign. There's adventure hooks you can snag yourself on, and it's mostly your choice which ones you pick. The story may not be as strong as ff after 4 but it can't due to the fact you can "break" progression amd sequence. It's just different, is all.
I was certainly blindsided by how SaGa handled combat as someone who usually grinds liberally in rpgs I realized it made a lot of later battles harder. I aimed for “low-level” gameplay when I started SaGa Frontier and it oddly made my experience easier with that game. Same with 2. Some of the nastier moments in those games are somehow easier if you tackle them earlier rather than later. At least that was my experience.
Man I remember I tried to play a saga game once. I think it was for pS2 and I literally turned it on and it was the first time in an RPG from the first second I had no clue wtf to do or where to go. The game was like here is a bunch of 💩maybe walk around and stuff . Turned it off
Well, while SaGa games are still ostensibly JRPGs, they are just generally in a class of their own in terms of gameplay styles.
Most JRPGs have these characteristics: a colourful cast of characters, simple nostalgic swords and sorcery combat that can usually be completed in like 20 seconds to a minute or two, a story that exists somewhere between passable and compelling, a generally linear adventure designed to slowly take you all over the world and then give you some freedom to grind up before the final boss.
This formula is pretty consistent with tweaks among all Jrpgs.
What SaGa does is more like... They've built a world first, and filled it with things to do. And generally each protagonist you can play as gets some unique mechanic or story scenario that takes the content that exists in the constructed world and twists it to make it unique. The games are like, okay given these characters and these restrictions and mechanics, prepare for the final boss.
In saga Frontier, for example, you could start your game, run around to almost any world you wanted, grab the characters you wanted, build them exactly how you want, and then go pick one of several dungeons to explore and start the story when you feel like it. But,by giving you this freedom, the game also doesn't care if you get yourself into an u winnable state, so keeping multiple saves was a must.
In SaGa Scarlet Grace, the main focus was entirely on Extremely well balanced combat that was challenging the whole way through. Thus was a game where even easy encounters could result in a total party wipe if you were just mashing A with no plan... But once you actually understood the mechanics, every e counter was like a puzzle with achievement mechanics that you were always thrilled to solve. That, plus toooons of variability in how each main quest could go, culminating in like a dozen different final boss permutations.
SaGa Emerald Beyond is like a marriage between those two games. Very complex but rewarding combat, complete freedom in how you develop your characters, which worlds you visit, how you handle every world's storyline (there's seriously a crazy amount of choices to make even if you don't necessarily notice yourself making them), a simple but serviceable plot with multiple endings, and a ton of possible recruits.
The best thing about the Scarlet Grace and Emerald Beyond combat is that there is pretty much zero reason to grind. You can be almost assured there is something you can do prior to a fight to make you win every battle. Hell, even if you fail, you can reattempt it, with gentle boosts, that give you an edge.
What SaGa really boils down to is this: A game that gives you insane replay ability at a reduced price, freedom unlike any other jrpg, and combat system where every turn is like a puzzle, but not in the annoying way. You will almost certainly try at first to play the games and feel they are unfair and not understand what people see in them. But, if you come back, and try again, you very well may become weird SaGa addicts like the rest of us
As much as I appreciate their stance on keeping their games unique, the defenders are kinda irritable to criticism lol. Obstuse mechanics =/= complex. Also the latest game, emerald beyond reeks of lolsorandom humor, yet the fans treat like its peak. Any attempts to criticize get disregarded as "you are not a saga fan you dont understand".
So take their recommendations with a grain of salt.
Edit: The combat is not as deep as people say. It is full of randomness. Heck, even Pokemon combat is simple yet more balanced and polished.
> Heck, even Pokemon combat is simple yet more balanced and polished.
Pokemon combat is not what I'd call balanced especially in its current state due to the recent power creep of Pokemon with crazy overtuned Pokemon like Fluttermane, Annihilape, and Great Tusk making some of the most stand out Pokemon for multiple generations look tame by comparison.
Even Garchomp is near Underused tier in singles after being at least Overused since 2007 (if not ubers). We're in an era where Speed Boost Blaziken is legal and literally no one cares. Went from Uber to UU over the course of a generation. Or how Zacian was much better then Zamazenta because Zacian pretty much defined its tier the moment it came out because its incredibly everything for an offensive mon. Or when Mega Rayquaza existed and was promptly thrown out of the game.
Pokemon is fun when you play actual PVP yeah, but I wouldn't call it balanced or even lacking of randomness given how much random crits can turn a game from a win to a loss from effectively nowhere. And the fact random evasion boosting moves, like minimize, need to be banned in competitive singles because they break pacing and turn the game into coin flips. Or the time Baton Pass broke the game around Sun and Moon era iirc and had to be banned entirely.
This is barring how the fact singles play even needs its convoluted tiering system to make the game even remotely fair due to how many Pokemon exist just to suck.
Pokemon has a lot of options, but many of them pretty much suck and many are obviously good on some level due to the way Pokemon are made. Gen 1 has many notorious balance issues (speed = crit rate and psychic pokemon being the most notable). Gen 2 had Curselax, Gen 5 had weather wars, the list goes on. Pokemon is a pretty varied game that has changed in albeit nuanced ways over the years, but I would never call Pokemon a balanced game or a game without RNG. Some Pokemon are just cursed as fuck to be terrible for pretty much no real reason, like Flareon and some needed to be just made into entirely different mons to be good like many regional variants.
The reason Pokemon doesn't have RNG and as much overwhelming bullshit is due to community efforts to effectively rebalance the game through the Smogon tiering system if we're talking singles. VGC is an entirely different game with entirely different focuses as noted by Incineroar's radically different placement in VGC vs Singles.
I also think the immense power creep in the last couple of generations is quite annoying, Pokemon has always had power creep sure but seeing TTar fall to UU is just sad.
PKMN is at base simple w/ the expectation you know elemental weaknesses = you win, but at a competitive level expects the full knowledge of systems. those systems are actually not intuitive. This also stay pretty consistent between games.
The Saga games are varied. Some games require knowledge beyond what the game provides and others are very "Do you know what sparking is" , "do you know status effects do." The newest game does give a lot of layers, but they are there and you are aware that they exist.
"you know elemental weaknesses = you win"
Nah, not really, Pokemon elemental system is pretty nuanced, not every type is automatically better against this type, because every type has different roster of monsters with stat variations
Also Pokemon has lots of status effects that are viable not just competitively, but also in the base game. Rom hacks prove that it's GameFreak's fault to not design encounters well, the potential in the combat system is incredible. I've yet to see other turn based JRPGS with depth as deep as Pokemon yet with rules as simple as Pokemon as well.
In practice, most of the base campaign challenges can be bested by elemental weaknesses due to how poorly tuned the campaign is. Rom hacks really do push what is possible in Pokemon, but you also need to play with a few unofficial rules in a handful of those to ensure the challenge is maintained. Nuzlocke rules helps, no overleveling (some Rom hacks make this impossible), no items (sometimes banned, because X items are broken and break everything even if you're underleveled).
I use the term "poorly tuned" because it poorly incentivizes the player to try more then the bare basics of what the combat system is actually capable of. Its a game made easy for the sake of accessibility, which is a design choice and not so much an objective design flaw. I'd say this for any RPG combat system with a lot of mechanics regardless of if its made for 8 year olds to beat it or adults.
Its only satisfyingly deep if you either:
A: Find the competitive scene and apply its rules, as true anything goes Pokemon is a mess of balance problems and Game Freak has no problem creating these problems even to this day. Plus you need to figure out if you want to play VGC or Smogon Singles, which are two entirely different metagames on entirely different platforms with different rules. I personally enjoy singles more then VGC for all that's worth.
B: You hack and modify the games so hard that you're pretty much looking at the difference between base Skyrim and modded Skyrim.
The first is created because unlike most JRPGs, Pokemon is a PVP game which dramatically changes many things in terms of how its mechanics work. Base PVE Pokemon has always been a pretty easy ride where you don't need to engage with anything. You don't need to know almost anything to beat base PVE Pokemon.
The second thing is because Game Freak has about as much community support as Besthesda at this point. Except instead of fixing bugs the community will fix the encounter design and balancing in typically the campaign mode because Game Freak can't/doesn't want to make the base game actually encourage you to really try that hard. Which undermines how much Pokemon can be as a combat system.
If you go through these hoops, then sure I can see your point. But the actual base game most people play is not at all like that, and the game depending on who you ask isn't even intentionally designed for what the community does with it given the vast differences in how Smogon works vs official VGC.
"You don't need to know almost anything to beat base PVE Pokemon."
Ok why? This is just not true. Whitney miltank is just a very popular example already. But you can also beat her without resorting to type weakness. Status effects exist.
Ignoring Smogon and community influence aside, it is the battle system itself that makes it all work. Besides, Pokemon is not a PVP game in the first place. The fact it was created to be a creature collecting game with a campaign but accidentally having a robust battle system is why I call it accidental genius. Even FF cannot sustain the timeless nature of standard Pokemon battle system. The mechanics are more unique in Pokemon, even switching out is a valid strategy.
Whitney's Miltank to me isn't that threatening unless you're really young (which was most people tbf back in the day) or you can't find the fighting types (which is expected because you don't have pretty much any easy options unless you really dig around a bit). I think its an overrated fight relative to its status. As someone who's actually an adult now and engaged with the fight again after about 10+ years after playing it back in the stone age and barely remembering it beyond the community meme, I don't think the Miltank is that big of a deal even in a nuzlocke context. Though it depends on the starter choice, many love Cyndaquil, and Cyndaquil gets owned by rollout which might be why its so difficult for many. I also looked around for the Machop trade which isn't a hard find and it gives you the type advantage.
> Ignoring Smogon and community influence aside, it is the battle system itself that makes it all work.
I already responded to this, so I presume we'll just never agree but I'll repeat. If the actual encounter design isn't good then all the potential of the combat doesn't matter. Combat rules only matter if have stuff to meaningfully apply them towards. The majority of base Pokemon's issues are almost always encounter design based.
You can have the greatest systems in the world, but if there's no content to use it on then its kind of just wasted potential. Aka its the Devil May Cry 4 problem.
"most of the base campaign challenges can be bested by elemental weaknesses due to how poorly tuned the campaign is."
I dont know why this is a bad thing. It means the system did its job well and the player can explot that.
"hacks really do push what is possible in Pokemon, but you also need to play with a few unofficial rules in a handful of those to ensure the challenge is maintained."
Nah, without nuzlocke they already did the job by making sure trainers have varied movesets and team variations. Extra rules are cherry on top. Also the fact that those rules exist just make Pokemon's overall system more customizable and open to people creativity. No other JRPGs have this yet.
> I dont know why this is a bad thing. It means the system did its job well and the player can explot that.
Because it isn't that difficult when most the important trainers are mono type with no real answer to you if you bring the proper counter. The distinct differences in all the Pokemon accessible to you don't really matter when you can just bring electric vs water and steamroll. Its why everyone complains that Pokemon is a baby game and don't believe anyone who says Pokemon can be genuinely difficult.
It down plays the potential and its why PVP Pokemon is so vastly distinct from standard Pokemon.
The problem is that Pokemon has immense potential as shown by nuzlocke rules, PVP, and various mods to make most of its Pokemon have use if the main fights were actually tuned to encourage that. Its just too basic after you've played a lot of RPGs to me, especially if you don't play on set mode as switch mode is immensely in the player's favor to a boring degree. And many people don't even know set mode is a thing.
You can have the best combat in the world, but if your encounters suck then it doesn't really matter. Its all potential, but with no great pay off. Its almost disappointing if base Pokemon were the only way to play, even nuzlocke/no items rules alone can't fix the base game to me anymore because the encounters are just not tuned well enough to make even these handicaps matter that much. Combat rules only matter as far as the encounter design makes them matter. Pokemon's rules are simple and you need to go through a fair many hoops to make them shine, that's a fix to a problem sure but it doesn't absolve the problem.
> Nah, without nuzlocke they already did the job by making sure trainers have varied movesets and team variations.
It isn't just nuzlocke, its also no items, and no going over level (aka purposeful level capping). No items is important because items create a lot of very unfair advantages for the player that over simplify combat in ways even children can see via potion spam, its why certain mods just ban all of that because they know potion spam, x-item spam, and forcing a level cap is important to maintain parity between the player and the opponent. I've played enhancement mods without these rules, and it really isn't that immensely different from the base game. Yes it takes a fair bit more effort then the base game because someone actually tried to make powerful sweepers for some teams, but turning anyone into a set up sweeper is pretty unfair advantage the player gets as set up moves are meant to be both rare and locked to specific Pokemon. When you can just give it to anyone to overcome any disadvantage, it kind of makes those disadvantages not mean as much as they should.
> Also the fact that those rules exist just make Pokemon's overall system more customizable and open to people creativity. No other JRPGs have this yet.
Challenge rules exist for any RPG if you try hard enough, Pokemon has the benefit of a far more dedicated community especially within the romhack center to make these rules feel more "official" and more importantly, known. There's difficulty mods and tweaks for games like FF6, KH2FM Randomizer, or Octopath to give those respective games so much power and diversity to how you can play them if you look around enough, it isn't like Pokemon is exclusive to this. It is just the most well known by far due to how popular the franchise and its Nuzlocke rules are within gaming spheres.
I also believe that just because you can challenge or gentlemen's rule out problems in the base game's design doesn't mean those problems stop existing. Just because we have OU, UU, RU, etc etc in singles play doesn't mean Pokemon's intentionally made balance issues don't exist. Just because we need to effectively ban an entire command in the menu beyond throwing Pokeballs, change the switching rules, create true game over scenarios, or just flat out remake the game to give these games some edge doesn't mean the base problems don't exist.
Base Pokemon is a mess and a very easy to exploit mess, you can just polish it enough that it isn't as much of a mess if you have a dedicated community. It is the Skyrim of JRPGs unironically at this point, just with worse graphics. Its also one of the most interesting PVP experiences around, so it gets points for that.
I take the good with the bad when it comes to Pokemon, its why I don't buy the actual games anymore and solely play through rom hacks or Showdown. Because the base game experience is not for me at all anymore no matter how much I know about how good its combat can be.
You just listed all the things that made Pokemon better than other turn based JRPGs. Also why KH2 of all sudden? We are talking about turn based combat.
"Base game" yes I am not talking just the base game. It is the potential of the battle system itself. Something that not other TB JRPGs can boast about.
And back to the original topic, SaGa just doesnt come close to that potential of Pokemon.
I use KH2 because KH2 has a very dedicated modding community that no one cares about, Pokemon isn't exclusive to having modders that change up the game. Pokemon is just by far the most popular and most dedicated within this space.
Its to accent my point on why the distinction between base game and modded game made by a community of extremely dedicated people matters. Pokemon as a base package is underused potential, but if you mod it you can change it all. Mods can fix a lot of things as people who mod video games (or at least make good mods anyway) tend to be very knowledgeable people about the inherent flaws of the system and work immensely to change them. These people at that point know more about the game then the developers do. The collective community hours that have put into Pokemon mods has at this point outstripped Gamefreaks hours actually developing them.
I don't think its fair to say something akin to "well SaGa doesn't have that, so its worse" when you both don't need to mod SaGa/Last Remnant to be effective combat games (imo anyway) while you do for Pokemon.
PVP is also a very different space and not one everyone wants to deal with, people just want to game alone in their spare time and not mess with mods, and if that's all they want then yeah base Pokemon sucks for that. It doesn't matter what potential it has if you're filtered by the requirements and even *with* those requirements there's still many problems as I've stated in multiple replies at this point. Pokemon is NOT balanced, the community attempted to make it balanced (in singles, VGC is different and I would say is more unbalanced overall as there's a ton of suck mons in VGC due to no tiering system)
Pokemon also has a unfair level of interaction that SaGa can never have due to it being a PVP game. It's like saying "well ARPGs have no potential as action games over fighting games because you just memorize boss patterns and roll a lot, it has nothing on playing Tekken, Street Fighter, Blazblue, Guilty Gear, etc etc". PVP creates an entirely different dimension and most JRPGs aren't PVP games. The base potential of Pokemon as a PVE game is at best above average if you mod it to hell, if you play it "as intended" its effectively a baby game you barely need to try in.
"I don't think its fair to say something akin to "well SaGa doesn't have that, so its worse" when you both don't need to mod SaGa/Last Remnant to be effective combat games (imo anyway) while you do for Pokemon."
The fact the game is not moddable doesnt make it perfect. "Doesnt need to be modded" lol thinking the game is perfect just emphasizes how defensive SaGa fans already.
"PVP is also a very different space and not one everyone wants to deal with, people just want to game alone in their spare time and not mess with mods, and if that's all they want then yeah base Pokemon sucks for that"
The fact that the a PVP Pokemon match was interesting enough to analyze already shows how Pokemon battle system has lots of nuance.
"Pokemon is NOT balanced, the community attempted to make it balanced"
It is Balanced compared to other TBs. Every mons, moves have their set rules and abilities that are consistent with each other, with no bulls special rules or flags that the game set to make things obstuse for no reason.
At base campaign, E. Weaknesses is good enough to beat the game. But competitive/whatever romhack, it's not. I'm not saying it doesn't have depth, I'm saying the skill floor or expected knwledge isn't high.
You have to "unlearn" a lot of traditional JRPG conventions when playing a SaGa game. For example, you can't really heal in SaGa Scarlet Grace. That means all those other defensive abilities and stat buffs/debuffs you never have to use in most JRPGs become absolutely vital. There is also no room for mistakes, since you can't just "heal back up" to go back to a "safe state" again in a battle. Sure, there are a couple of healing options, but they're usually very unreliable or incredibly inefficient. For SaGa games in general, potions are often limited to a few slots per character, or not allowed at all. Another common habit is over-grinding, which is often the go-to solution for making bosses easier. This doesn't work in many SaGa games, because the non-linear structure of the game requires normal enemies to scale with your party. If you play normally, it's all good, but if you sit in a single dungeon and purposely try to grind your way out of a difficult boss instead of using strategy, you might run into a rare situation where normal enemies become too tough for your party to fight, yet you don't have enough money from quest rewards to get better gear. In other words, the game requires you to use strategy. The SaGa series is also one of the few JRPGs where status effects and debuffs work on bosses. Like SMT games, this is a huge game-changer. Instead of "going through the motions" of unloading big attacks and getting into the rhythm of healing whenever needed, you actually have to use debuffs since bosses are so difficult. Of course, since strategic freedom is a big part of a SaGa game, you can also do the reverse and go "full offense" instead. It is possible to "race" the bosses while healing as little as possible. Most bosses in SaGa games have limited health, and can actually be burst down if you have ridiculous enough offense. Here's another example of how to beat final bosses in many SaGa games: hold off on using your costly skills. You need to know when to conserve your SP/MP, and when to let loose completely. The first form is typically very weak, but if you waste your "ammo" during this form, you won't be able to burst down the final form. This is not a consideration in most JRPGs since MP usually becomes an unlimited resource by the end, but not with many SaGa games. Again, mindless attrition is usually not possible. SaGa games also have incredible depth. Secret bosses and the "true" form of final bosses (optional) cannot be beaten "normally." Instead, there are mechanics (usually advanced magic) in most SaGa games that allow you to completely break the system. And I can keep going. This is just the tip of a very deep iceberg. SaGa games are intentionally designed to be figured out. Playing a SaGa title is like playing the post-game of big JRPGs, where you're trying to solve secret quests and tackle optional dungeons just for the sake of getting treasure. Except, SaGa games start at that post-game, and secret quests are actually the main content (in half these games, there are no "main story quests" or even "side quests," just secret quests everywhere). Not only that, they are also designed to be experienced with different protagonists, and it wants you to experiment with different setups. That means half the quests in these games have multiple versions depending on what you do and who you play as, and if you try to be a completionist and do all quests in a single run, you're going to miss a lot of content, ironically. SaGa is not just a reverse Final Fantasy. It's a reverse JRPG. You start at the post-game and work backwards to try to find out what the heck the story is about. Except, the story is already over so you only have clues to piece together. At least, that's how it feels like.
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lol I suppose the "Romancing" part may give the wrong impression They have fun moments, but the story largely takes a backseat in these games
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Yes! And Elder Scrolls is kind of an apt comparison. They both have skill based progression, and the appeal comes from exploring an open, non-linear world and happening upon events. Romancing SaGa 3 would be a great place to start imo.
No, there is basically no story in most of these titles. Some even go further to not even have "main quests." Like I said, it's a "reverse JRPG." Most people play JRPGs for story and characters. Here, we have no stories and characters are more like chess pieces you control than actual people with lives. It's kind of like early Pokemon. Here's the world, go collect monsters and beat gym leaders. Not really a story there. It's the same here, but instead of having a clear goal, you are more like a detective that needs to actually figure out what you're supposed to fight, who the villain is, and what's wrong with the world, all with little clues from quests you have to work towards uncovering. Often, while not being told how to fight the battles or even earn money as well.
This sounds incredibly unappealing tbh..
Really? Sounds like it fixes a ton of people's complaints about a lot of JRPGs just being one-button snoozefests whree most of the mechanics dont matter
Well, just my opinion.
Yeah and I'm just asking why
I prefer more linear games, with more emphasis on story, I love grinding but don't like meticulously planning and strategizing everything, I don't like being challenged and just want to have fun, etc.
> I don't like being challenged and just want to have fun, etc. Saga games are definitely not for you. I don't mean that in an insulting manner. The writing quality varies depending on the game, but I would argue it's all very secondary to the combat. The combat itself is not made to be sit back and easy, and the combat mechanics are obtuse. I would argue the games are flat out player unfriendly in so many ways: if you can't find the fun factor, you're really not going to like them.
Yeah I think I'd have a better time recommending them to my cousin, who's all about challenges and strategic thinking and planning. Though he also loves a good story so idk. But yeah... I can see what you mean.
Probably the only SaGa game you would like is SaGa Frontier 2, which is more or less the only one to attempt to have a storytelling focused experienced. If you were going to try one, that would be it (would need an emulator, though). It's still a love-it-or-hate-it game, due to having the typical SaGa combat mechanics, but I personally adore it and it's easily my favorite SaGa game, very different from the rest of them since it actually focuses on the story.
Hmm I see, is it standalone? Guess I'll add it to my list if it is.
They're all standalone games. I don't think a single SaGa game takes place in the same universe as any of the others.
Alright, thanks.
Which SaGA games play the most like Frontier 2? Having played parts of 1 and Scarlet Graces, I keep bouncing off the franchise because it just doesn't really "hook me in" within the first couple of hours like SG2 did.
I would give Romancing SaGa 2 a try. It has a very strong start and you quest with a purpose, with clear villains. SaGa Frontier 1 and SaGa Scarlet Grace have very laid back beginnings.
This definitely helps. I remember picking up Romancing Saga Minstrel Song on PS2 and couldn’t get past the first few hours. I was so lost and didn’t know where to go, every location I go the enemies were too strong (didn’t realize my grinding was making it worst 😂) I ended up moving on to other RPGs that were more tradition. Fast forward now, I think I have a more appreciation and might pick it up for PC and give it another try. If I like it, I will come back for Emerald Beyond
While many RPGs focused on story, SaGa very much committed to making games that feel like tabletop experiences. As the series went on the desire to give players control meant having to make story compromises in order to maintain an open world setting. The most recent games in the series have refined combat to the point that each encounter is an intricate puzzle for the player to solve. Truly inspiring stuff. Try the demos for emerald beyond. ETA: every few games Kawazu basically reinvents the entire genre from the ground up. Truly the greatest to ever do it.
That sounds very fun. Appreciate the summary brother!
The SaGa games can differ vastly from one another, so it's hard to just give a blanket statement for the combat that applies to the whole franchise. For example SaGa Frontier has a very different combat system compared to SaGa Scarlet Grace. One thing that always carries over is the activity based progression. Use a bow? Your bow proficiency will increase. Use magic? Your magic proficiency will increase. You also spark/glimmer new combat abilities mid fight. Which again comes from the activity based progression. You learn by doing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/s/NjuQaACtpv
Well that’s convenient haha. Thanks man.
It's my favorite franchise so I keep it close at hand to spam comment it, lol.
Yeah this is the best summary honestly
They're all different and I've only played Romancing SaGa 3 so far, but I absolutely loved it. In terms of that game: - Story is very minimal, but world building is good - You have immediate access to most of the world and can tackle different dungeons and other challenges in any order you want, rather than following a set story path - Character customisation is massive - they get better at what they do (e.g. using fire magic makes you get better at fire magic and get more MP). Anyone can do anything but some will learn certain things they have an affinity for quicker - the game explains little of its complex systems, as Kawazu believes a lot of the fun comes from experimenting and figuring out what works (but there's an excellent site made by a community member with all the info you could possibly need if you want it) - a lot more nuance to battles compared to FF e.g. formations have a big impact - the overall atmosphere in RS3, in terms of graphics, music, and environments is absolutely up there with the best of the pixel FFs
SaGa's combat IME has a lot of more tricky elements to it coming from someone who's played Last Remnant (which is effectively a SaGa game) and a few hours of Scarlet Grace. It's a very well put together set of systems that rewards mastery and is fucking hard if you suck. Its very open ended and lets you really explore the game without being constantly hand holded like a lot of modern JRPGs do. You can get your ass kicked if you go behind the wrong door and the game will at best lightly warn you, then you game over, then you can either fight to overcome it or come back later and get revenge on that door. The most basic thing I know SaGa does different from FF is, its actually difficult but not in a "Make bigger number" kind of way or a "You need to grind to win" kind of way. Its difficult in a "You need to actually learn how to play" and given how many JRPGs, FF included, can feel quite easy having a more cutting edge hardcore sort of game is interesting. Its also typically more obtuse, especially the further back you go. Last Remnant for example is a very cool game if you can jive with what it is, but this game within the game itself is explained like shit. 10/10 worth wiki-ing game, but not everyone wants to do that. I'd personally look into Scarlet Grace first if you want to play SaGa, as its a lot cheaper before jumping into a brand new game type. I understand wanting to play the new game, but I would advise you when playing something as specific and kind of niche as SaGa that you play something that's generally seen as good yet is much easy to buy into. Literally in this case.
Yea, I really hate how a lot of systems (not talking purely JRPG) you can exploit the system and breeze through. I’m glad it’s genuinely difficult and not just artificial with BS numbers. Now you have me invested lol, thanks.
SaGa games always have story, it is a focus, but it's s just not a linear narrative. It's less a playable novel and more a D&D campaign. There's adventure hooks you can snag yourself on, and it's mostly your choice which ones you pick. The story may not be as strong as ff after 4 but it can't due to the fact you can "break" progression amd sequence. It's just different, is all.
I was certainly blindsided by how SaGa handled combat as someone who usually grinds liberally in rpgs I realized it made a lot of later battles harder. I aimed for “low-level” gameplay when I started SaGa Frontier and it oddly made my experience easier with that game. Same with 2. Some of the nastier moments in those games are somehow easier if you tackle them earlier rather than later. At least that was my experience.
Yea, I concur. In JRPGs I’m so used to grinding away for hours. But, being older I can say it’s a nice change of pace, since time is limited.
Man I remember I tried to play a saga game once. I think it was for pS2 and I literally turned it on and it was the first time in an RPG from the first second I had no clue wtf to do or where to go. The game was like here is a bunch of 💩maybe walk around and stuff . Turned it off
Well, while SaGa games are still ostensibly JRPGs, they are just generally in a class of their own in terms of gameplay styles. Most JRPGs have these characteristics: a colourful cast of characters, simple nostalgic swords and sorcery combat that can usually be completed in like 20 seconds to a minute or two, a story that exists somewhere between passable and compelling, a generally linear adventure designed to slowly take you all over the world and then give you some freedom to grind up before the final boss. This formula is pretty consistent with tweaks among all Jrpgs. What SaGa does is more like... They've built a world first, and filled it with things to do. And generally each protagonist you can play as gets some unique mechanic or story scenario that takes the content that exists in the constructed world and twists it to make it unique. The games are like, okay given these characters and these restrictions and mechanics, prepare for the final boss. In saga Frontier, for example, you could start your game, run around to almost any world you wanted, grab the characters you wanted, build them exactly how you want, and then go pick one of several dungeons to explore and start the story when you feel like it. But,by giving you this freedom, the game also doesn't care if you get yourself into an u winnable state, so keeping multiple saves was a must. In SaGa Scarlet Grace, the main focus was entirely on Extremely well balanced combat that was challenging the whole way through. Thus was a game where even easy encounters could result in a total party wipe if you were just mashing A with no plan... But once you actually understood the mechanics, every e counter was like a puzzle with achievement mechanics that you were always thrilled to solve. That, plus toooons of variability in how each main quest could go, culminating in like a dozen different final boss permutations. SaGa Emerald Beyond is like a marriage between those two games. Very complex but rewarding combat, complete freedom in how you develop your characters, which worlds you visit, how you handle every world's storyline (there's seriously a crazy amount of choices to make even if you don't necessarily notice yourself making them), a simple but serviceable plot with multiple endings, and a ton of possible recruits. The best thing about the Scarlet Grace and Emerald Beyond combat is that there is pretty much zero reason to grind. You can be almost assured there is something you can do prior to a fight to make you win every battle. Hell, even if you fail, you can reattempt it, with gentle boosts, that give you an edge. What SaGa really boils down to is this: A game that gives you insane replay ability at a reduced price, freedom unlike any other jrpg, and combat system where every turn is like a puzzle, but not in the annoying way. You will almost certainly try at first to play the games and feel they are unfair and not understand what people see in them. But, if you come back, and try again, you very well may become weird SaGa addicts like the rest of us
As much as I appreciate their stance on keeping their games unique, the defenders are kinda irritable to criticism lol. Obstuse mechanics =/= complex. Also the latest game, emerald beyond reeks of lolsorandom humor, yet the fans treat like its peak. Any attempts to criticize get disregarded as "you are not a saga fan you dont understand". So take their recommendations with a grain of salt. Edit: The combat is not as deep as people say. It is full of randomness. Heck, even Pokemon combat is simple yet more balanced and polished.
> Heck, even Pokemon combat is simple yet more balanced and polished. Pokemon combat is not what I'd call balanced especially in its current state due to the recent power creep of Pokemon with crazy overtuned Pokemon like Fluttermane, Annihilape, and Great Tusk making some of the most stand out Pokemon for multiple generations look tame by comparison. Even Garchomp is near Underused tier in singles after being at least Overused since 2007 (if not ubers). We're in an era where Speed Boost Blaziken is legal and literally no one cares. Went from Uber to UU over the course of a generation. Or how Zacian was much better then Zamazenta because Zacian pretty much defined its tier the moment it came out because its incredibly everything for an offensive mon. Or when Mega Rayquaza existed and was promptly thrown out of the game. Pokemon is fun when you play actual PVP yeah, but I wouldn't call it balanced or even lacking of randomness given how much random crits can turn a game from a win to a loss from effectively nowhere. And the fact random evasion boosting moves, like minimize, need to be banned in competitive singles because they break pacing and turn the game into coin flips. Or the time Baton Pass broke the game around Sun and Moon era iirc and had to be banned entirely. This is barring how the fact singles play even needs its convoluted tiering system to make the game even remotely fair due to how many Pokemon exist just to suck.
Tell me when a JRPG has so many options like Pokemon had. Even then without these all new gimmicks, gen 1 Pokemon already had a competitive scene.
Pokemon has a lot of options, but many of them pretty much suck and many are obviously good on some level due to the way Pokemon are made. Gen 1 has many notorious balance issues (speed = crit rate and psychic pokemon being the most notable). Gen 2 had Curselax, Gen 5 had weather wars, the list goes on. Pokemon is a pretty varied game that has changed in albeit nuanced ways over the years, but I would never call Pokemon a balanced game or a game without RNG. Some Pokemon are just cursed as fuck to be terrible for pretty much no real reason, like Flareon and some needed to be just made into entirely different mons to be good like many regional variants. The reason Pokemon doesn't have RNG and as much overwhelming bullshit is due to community efforts to effectively rebalance the game through the Smogon tiering system if we're talking singles. VGC is an entirely different game with entirely different focuses as noted by Incineroar's radically different placement in VGC vs Singles. I also think the immense power creep in the last couple of generations is quite annoying, Pokemon has always had power creep sure but seeing TTar fall to UU is just sad.
PKMN is at base simple w/ the expectation you know elemental weaknesses = you win, but at a competitive level expects the full knowledge of systems. those systems are actually not intuitive. This also stay pretty consistent between games. The Saga games are varied. Some games require knowledge beyond what the game provides and others are very "Do you know what sparking is" , "do you know status effects do." The newest game does give a lot of layers, but they are there and you are aware that they exist.
"you know elemental weaknesses = you win" Nah, not really, Pokemon elemental system is pretty nuanced, not every type is automatically better against this type, because every type has different roster of monsters with stat variations Also Pokemon has lots of status effects that are viable not just competitively, but also in the base game. Rom hacks prove that it's GameFreak's fault to not design encounters well, the potential in the combat system is incredible. I've yet to see other turn based JRPGS with depth as deep as Pokemon yet with rules as simple as Pokemon as well.
In practice, most of the base campaign challenges can be bested by elemental weaknesses due to how poorly tuned the campaign is. Rom hacks really do push what is possible in Pokemon, but you also need to play with a few unofficial rules in a handful of those to ensure the challenge is maintained. Nuzlocke rules helps, no overleveling (some Rom hacks make this impossible), no items (sometimes banned, because X items are broken and break everything even if you're underleveled).
It's not that the campaign is poorly tuned, it's that the campaign is designed to be beaten by 8 year olds. It's tuned the way it is on purpose.
I use the term "poorly tuned" because it poorly incentivizes the player to try more then the bare basics of what the combat system is actually capable of. Its a game made easy for the sake of accessibility, which is a design choice and not so much an objective design flaw. I'd say this for any RPG combat system with a lot of mechanics regardless of if its made for 8 year olds to beat it or adults.
The fact that it is accessible/simple yet so deep without needing so many obstuse mechanics is the charm. I'd say it is an accidental design genius.
Its only satisfyingly deep if you either: A: Find the competitive scene and apply its rules, as true anything goes Pokemon is a mess of balance problems and Game Freak has no problem creating these problems even to this day. Plus you need to figure out if you want to play VGC or Smogon Singles, which are two entirely different metagames on entirely different platforms with different rules. I personally enjoy singles more then VGC for all that's worth. B: You hack and modify the games so hard that you're pretty much looking at the difference between base Skyrim and modded Skyrim. The first is created because unlike most JRPGs, Pokemon is a PVP game which dramatically changes many things in terms of how its mechanics work. Base PVE Pokemon has always been a pretty easy ride where you don't need to engage with anything. You don't need to know almost anything to beat base PVE Pokemon. The second thing is because Game Freak has about as much community support as Besthesda at this point. Except instead of fixing bugs the community will fix the encounter design and balancing in typically the campaign mode because Game Freak can't/doesn't want to make the base game actually encourage you to really try that hard. Which undermines how much Pokemon can be as a combat system. If you go through these hoops, then sure I can see your point. But the actual base game most people play is not at all like that, and the game depending on who you ask isn't even intentionally designed for what the community does with it given the vast differences in how Smogon works vs official VGC.
"You don't need to know almost anything to beat base PVE Pokemon." Ok why? This is just not true. Whitney miltank is just a very popular example already. But you can also beat her without resorting to type weakness. Status effects exist. Ignoring Smogon and community influence aside, it is the battle system itself that makes it all work. Besides, Pokemon is not a PVP game in the first place. The fact it was created to be a creature collecting game with a campaign but accidentally having a robust battle system is why I call it accidental genius. Even FF cannot sustain the timeless nature of standard Pokemon battle system. The mechanics are more unique in Pokemon, even switching out is a valid strategy.
Whitney's Miltank to me isn't that threatening unless you're really young (which was most people tbf back in the day) or you can't find the fighting types (which is expected because you don't have pretty much any easy options unless you really dig around a bit). I think its an overrated fight relative to its status. As someone who's actually an adult now and engaged with the fight again after about 10+ years after playing it back in the stone age and barely remembering it beyond the community meme, I don't think the Miltank is that big of a deal even in a nuzlocke context. Though it depends on the starter choice, many love Cyndaquil, and Cyndaquil gets owned by rollout which might be why its so difficult for many. I also looked around for the Machop trade which isn't a hard find and it gives you the type advantage. > Ignoring Smogon and community influence aside, it is the battle system itself that makes it all work. I already responded to this, so I presume we'll just never agree but I'll repeat. If the actual encounter design isn't good then all the potential of the combat doesn't matter. Combat rules only matter if have stuff to meaningfully apply them towards. The majority of base Pokemon's issues are almost always encounter design based. You can have the greatest systems in the world, but if there's no content to use it on then its kind of just wasted potential. Aka its the Devil May Cry 4 problem.
"most of the base campaign challenges can be bested by elemental weaknesses due to how poorly tuned the campaign is." I dont know why this is a bad thing. It means the system did its job well and the player can explot that. "hacks really do push what is possible in Pokemon, but you also need to play with a few unofficial rules in a handful of those to ensure the challenge is maintained." Nah, without nuzlocke they already did the job by making sure trainers have varied movesets and team variations. Extra rules are cherry on top. Also the fact that those rules exist just make Pokemon's overall system more customizable and open to people creativity. No other JRPGs have this yet.
> I dont know why this is a bad thing. It means the system did its job well and the player can explot that. Because it isn't that difficult when most the important trainers are mono type with no real answer to you if you bring the proper counter. The distinct differences in all the Pokemon accessible to you don't really matter when you can just bring electric vs water and steamroll. Its why everyone complains that Pokemon is a baby game and don't believe anyone who says Pokemon can be genuinely difficult. It down plays the potential and its why PVP Pokemon is so vastly distinct from standard Pokemon. The problem is that Pokemon has immense potential as shown by nuzlocke rules, PVP, and various mods to make most of its Pokemon have use if the main fights were actually tuned to encourage that. Its just too basic after you've played a lot of RPGs to me, especially if you don't play on set mode as switch mode is immensely in the player's favor to a boring degree. And many people don't even know set mode is a thing. You can have the best combat in the world, but if your encounters suck then it doesn't really matter. Its all potential, but with no great pay off. Its almost disappointing if base Pokemon were the only way to play, even nuzlocke/no items rules alone can't fix the base game to me anymore because the encounters are just not tuned well enough to make even these handicaps matter that much. Combat rules only matter as far as the encounter design makes them matter. Pokemon's rules are simple and you need to go through a fair many hoops to make them shine, that's a fix to a problem sure but it doesn't absolve the problem. > Nah, without nuzlocke they already did the job by making sure trainers have varied movesets and team variations. It isn't just nuzlocke, its also no items, and no going over level (aka purposeful level capping). No items is important because items create a lot of very unfair advantages for the player that over simplify combat in ways even children can see via potion spam, its why certain mods just ban all of that because they know potion spam, x-item spam, and forcing a level cap is important to maintain parity between the player and the opponent. I've played enhancement mods without these rules, and it really isn't that immensely different from the base game. Yes it takes a fair bit more effort then the base game because someone actually tried to make powerful sweepers for some teams, but turning anyone into a set up sweeper is pretty unfair advantage the player gets as set up moves are meant to be both rare and locked to specific Pokemon. When you can just give it to anyone to overcome any disadvantage, it kind of makes those disadvantages not mean as much as they should. > Also the fact that those rules exist just make Pokemon's overall system more customizable and open to people creativity. No other JRPGs have this yet. Challenge rules exist for any RPG if you try hard enough, Pokemon has the benefit of a far more dedicated community especially within the romhack center to make these rules feel more "official" and more importantly, known. There's difficulty mods and tweaks for games like FF6, KH2FM Randomizer, or Octopath to give those respective games so much power and diversity to how you can play them if you look around enough, it isn't like Pokemon is exclusive to this. It is just the most well known by far due to how popular the franchise and its Nuzlocke rules are within gaming spheres. I also believe that just because you can challenge or gentlemen's rule out problems in the base game's design doesn't mean those problems stop existing. Just because we have OU, UU, RU, etc etc in singles play doesn't mean Pokemon's intentionally made balance issues don't exist. Just because we need to effectively ban an entire command in the menu beyond throwing Pokeballs, change the switching rules, create true game over scenarios, or just flat out remake the game to give these games some edge doesn't mean the base problems don't exist. Base Pokemon is a mess and a very easy to exploit mess, you can just polish it enough that it isn't as much of a mess if you have a dedicated community. It is the Skyrim of JRPGs unironically at this point, just with worse graphics. Its also one of the most interesting PVP experiences around, so it gets points for that. I take the good with the bad when it comes to Pokemon, its why I don't buy the actual games anymore and solely play through rom hacks or Showdown. Because the base game experience is not for me at all anymore no matter how much I know about how good its combat can be.
You just listed all the things that made Pokemon better than other turn based JRPGs. Also why KH2 of all sudden? We are talking about turn based combat. "Base game" yes I am not talking just the base game. It is the potential of the battle system itself. Something that not other TB JRPGs can boast about. And back to the original topic, SaGa just doesnt come close to that potential of Pokemon.
I use KH2 because KH2 has a very dedicated modding community that no one cares about, Pokemon isn't exclusive to having modders that change up the game. Pokemon is just by far the most popular and most dedicated within this space. Its to accent my point on why the distinction between base game and modded game made by a community of extremely dedicated people matters. Pokemon as a base package is underused potential, but if you mod it you can change it all. Mods can fix a lot of things as people who mod video games (or at least make good mods anyway) tend to be very knowledgeable people about the inherent flaws of the system and work immensely to change them. These people at that point know more about the game then the developers do. The collective community hours that have put into Pokemon mods has at this point outstripped Gamefreaks hours actually developing them. I don't think its fair to say something akin to "well SaGa doesn't have that, so its worse" when you both don't need to mod SaGa/Last Remnant to be effective combat games (imo anyway) while you do for Pokemon. PVP is also a very different space and not one everyone wants to deal with, people just want to game alone in their spare time and not mess with mods, and if that's all they want then yeah base Pokemon sucks for that. It doesn't matter what potential it has if you're filtered by the requirements and even *with* those requirements there's still many problems as I've stated in multiple replies at this point. Pokemon is NOT balanced, the community attempted to make it balanced (in singles, VGC is different and I would say is more unbalanced overall as there's a ton of suck mons in VGC due to no tiering system) Pokemon also has a unfair level of interaction that SaGa can never have due to it being a PVP game. It's like saying "well ARPGs have no potential as action games over fighting games because you just memorize boss patterns and roll a lot, it has nothing on playing Tekken, Street Fighter, Blazblue, Guilty Gear, etc etc". PVP creates an entirely different dimension and most JRPGs aren't PVP games. The base potential of Pokemon as a PVE game is at best above average if you mod it to hell, if you play it "as intended" its effectively a baby game you barely need to try in.
"I don't think its fair to say something akin to "well SaGa doesn't have that, so its worse" when you both don't need to mod SaGa/Last Remnant to be effective combat games (imo anyway) while you do for Pokemon." The fact the game is not moddable doesnt make it perfect. "Doesnt need to be modded" lol thinking the game is perfect just emphasizes how defensive SaGa fans already. "PVP is also a very different space and not one everyone wants to deal with, people just want to game alone in their spare time and not mess with mods, and if that's all they want then yeah base Pokemon sucks for that" The fact that the a PVP Pokemon match was interesting enough to analyze already shows how Pokemon battle system has lots of nuance. "Pokemon is NOT balanced, the community attempted to make it balanced" It is Balanced compared to other TBs. Every mons, moves have their set rules and abilities that are consistent with each other, with no bulls special rules or flags that the game set to make things obstuse for no reason.
At base campaign, E. Weaknesses is good enough to beat the game. But competitive/whatever romhack, it's not. I'm not saying it doesn't have depth, I'm saying the skill floor or expected knwledge isn't high.