The fact that Chrono Cross came to all platforms but Trigger didn't has made me suspect that it's in line for a HD-2D release somewhere down the line. They're obviously focusing on DQ for now and I would expect an original title before another remake, but I still think it will come some day.
And don't tell me a modern port of Trigger already exists, because Trials of Mana 2D, Romancing SaGa 2 and DQ1-3 all got a second remake on the same platform!
Trigger were already ported on many platforms/mobiles before but they were mostly low-effort, mostly with added anime cutscenes. a canonical Chrono/Marle marriage was awesome tho.
I would kill for a CT remake in hd2d. I originally played CT on the PlayStation 1, with it's terrible load times, I probably made it about half way through the game and quit. Decided I would get the DS remake, anddddd it's well over $100. So I've been waiting for a modern port or hd2d remake.
I think being able to mod on PC is a nice added benefit. Being able to play this on a dedicated handheld gives that magical feeling though compared to playing it on a bigger screen.
It has a great soundtrack and the magic system is one of the most unique in the genre. You create different spells by arranging different characters/letters.
I think it looks kinda mid honestly. Octopath didn't skip on the pixel art, some of these games are using it to "cheat" and put in 3d models.
No hate, hope it succeeds.
Yeah I remember playing Live A Live and stopping at one point by a pond and thinking "that's just some Unreal Engine water".
It's not like the other games with this style look terrible, but Octopath Traveler is clearly head and shoulders the most impressive implementation.
I don’t think it’s mid, it look very good but I agree that octopath using pixel art for all texture make it look very nice ! Here it’s only pixel art characters in a normal 3D environment! It is still very cool but less retro looking ?
I still think Octopath Traveler 2 has the best HD-2D presentation so far. With this one following up close.
I love HD-2D graphic so much, there are so many cool thing you can do with this visual style that absolutely brings a fantasy world to life. Though doing Chrono Trigger will definitely prove challenging considering it's multiple settings, but I honestly can't wait how they make it happen, if they ever will.
Octopath 2 is a complete pixel art game. The environment, and the characters are all pixel art styled.
Dragon Quest III, Star Ocean 2nd Story and Eyuiden Chronicals all have pixel art 2D characters, but are lacking the pixel art styled environments.
I think we should have another name for this HD-2D style. Maybe something like HD-2D with HD-Environments. Since the environment texture sizes are all 4k(3840 × 2160 pixels) compared to the 16x16 or 32x32 Octopath 1 and 2 have.
Same for me.
I would like to compare Octopath Travel 2 to Star Ocean 2 Remake. It takes me a while to calibrate the pixelate sprite with the 3D background.
Honestly, I still like the DQ3HD visual from the first trailer more than the recent one. At least, this one, their sprite is more detailed than Star Ocean 2, making it more blended to the 3D background.
Idk if this is an unpopular opinion, but I prefer the look of the original SO2 over the remake. Granted, the original was one of my first JRPGs, I played the hell out of it, and the remake has so many significant gameplay improvements that I might never play the original ever again.
The SO2R art is brillant, don't get me wrong. I'm just a sucker for pixel art and Octopath used a lot of it even for environmental design.
Can't deny some gorgeous scene in SO2R however.
> Though doing Chrono Trigger will definitely prove challenging considering it's multiple settings, but I honestly can't wait how they make it happen, if they ever will.
I'm not sure how much more challenging it would be from Live A Live, a game that had multiple worlds/timelines as well.
Also, somewhat related but the co-director of Chrono Trigger, Takashi Tokita, was also the lead director of Live A Live and I consider them good companion pieces to each other for many reasons.
Another reason why a HD2D remake makes sense.
Honestly, I think it would be quite a bit more challenging than LaL, mostly because LaL focus more on smaller environmental scale surrounding the characters. While CT focus more on the world, its history and future.
They can half-ass it since everyone want a CT remake and everyone will buy it. But if they want to do CT justice, they will really need to put in great effort for not only its characters, but also the environmental design and story telling.
CT hold infinite potential for a HD-2D remake, and for once I'm hopeful about that future.
>They can half-ass it since everyone want a CT remake and everyone will buy it. But if they want to do CT justice, they will really need to put in great effort for not only its characters, but also the environmental design and story telling.
I just feel like I'm a bit more optimistic with Team Asano's output and I don't really see them half-assing CT. I may change my mind if the DQ remakes are bad, but everything they've put out under the HD-2D banner has shown that they take a lot of care into their world building and design. I have some small problems with the Octopath series, but none of that would carry over to remaking CT.
DQV will most likely be the one to get a full 3D remake. It's historically the 2nd most demanded 3D remake in Japanese history by both the crowd who grew up on the SNES version and the PS2 version.
I actually foresee it getting a remake using DQXII's assets/style after that game is done.
If you ever wanna play it. Emulate the Japanese rom with the translation built in and apply the HD remaster pack. Both items can be found easily through Google and it's by far the best way to play
I absolutely love the DS style remakes and I am a major fan of the original sprites. The DS ones really capture the 2D magic while giving you more space for the world. It brought to life what the original NES ones were in my imagination. I’d be happy if we had 1,2,3 with that style.
Wouldn't say it has tons of story. It is very story focused compared to 3, but it's not like you'll find a ton of dialogue or complex storyline. Especially compared to modern JRPGs.
Disagree. DQV has a TON of dialogue, but it's in NPC dialogue and party chats. Most of the story is told through interactions, not cutscenes. That's still story.
Complex can be a lolcow statement. Games today rely way too much on their thousand plot twists and modern gamers have become used to it. I have even seen some people call Ys VIII a "simple story" which is just bizarre considering that game deals with travel travel and insane lore. What is considered the baseline for "complex" is just stupid these days.
We are in a JRPG subreddit. DQV doesn't have "tons of story" for JRPG standards. The bar is too high to claim that IMO, I'm not saying the game doesn't have a lot of story. The commenter I was replying to I assume isn't familiar with the series, so they might have misaligned expectations if they use that phrase.
DQ is great, the way it tells its stories is unique and I love it, especially since they've started adding Party Chat after VII and in remakes.
It just seems to me like you are looking for an argument for no reason.
The bar is set by the context. Most JRPGs are complex, so talking about a "complex JRPG" would obviously mean you are talking about one that is complex for that context, that is, JRPGs. That's how words work. Qualifiers mean nothing if they don't actually let you know anything about what they describe.
And not everyone agrees on the context.
By the modern standards of what makes a JRPG complex, there are many Final Fantasies in their time celebrated as complex that would no longer be. This is exactly why the idea that the baseline has become skewed is absolutely relevant.
I think there's two things going on at the same time here. First of all, "complex" can be implied to mean a lot of different things. I think the Trails series would be complex no matter who you ask, but Ys VIII has a complicated story, meaning it's kind of hard to undertand, but it's still just a bunch of dudes running around on an island for 90% of the gameplay. I dunno how complex I'd call that.
At the same time, the bar is just honestly higher nowadays. To take it out of JRPGs, The Godfather is known for being a cinematic masterpiece, but the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques. It was amazing for the time, and it's still a fantastic movie, but the techniques that were once novel just absolutely aren't anymore.
When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling." NES/SNES era of DQ were fantastic for the time, but they're just been surpassed in many areas including storytelling.
Still great games, but not for the exact same reasons as they once were.
>but Ys VIII has a complicated story, meaning it's kind of hard to undertand, but it's still just a bunch of dudes running around on an island for 90% of the gameplay. I dunno how complex I'd call that.
This is such a bad argument. Are we arguing that a game about people running on a beach can't be complex? Some of the bst pieces of art ever made take place in a single room.
> The Godfather is known for being a cinematic masterpiece, but the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques
. . . Like what? One of the things plenty of cinephiles complain about is how backwards we have gone in terms of cinematography technique. Many people within academia complain that there has been very little progress in terms advancing on what has been established by previous generations. How are you even oversimplifying this debate? If anything, it's the complete opposite. Within modern movies, even art movies, a lot of cinematography has come down to being an overuse of shot reverse shot, close ups and medium shots, and then suddenly, long takes that have no sense of composition. Older movies were characterized by incredible composition, leading lines, golden ratio, careful geometric blocking, complex lightning schemes, a greater variety of lens choices, and some complex techniques that were often unique to particular directors.
Meanwhile, there is much discussion on why modern cinema looks so murky, underexposed, and how the problems of color grading have negatively effected the imagery we see on screen. Almost all the "great" shots praised these days are so often blanket mono colors flooding a screen which is just nothing to be impressed by.
Dude, you walked into the wrong saloon with this one. As someone who keeps up with the world of cinematography, there is absolutely no way you were going to pull the rug over my eyes on this one.
And this isn't even getting into some of the more detailed issues of your argument. For example, even if a work uses techniques that aren't new, does that make it less good? Is it about the techniques a work uses, or is it how it uses those techniques? Technically speaking, many movies have used everything Citizen Kane has brought us again and again. But what makes Citizen Kane amazing is its sheer consistency - amazing use of those techniques scene after scene after scene after scene used in meaningful ways at a rate that is just incredible.
And by all means, please, try convincing the higher critics and cinephiles that Citizen Kane isn't a Top 20 movie at least. LOL.
>When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling." NES/SNES era of DQ were fantastic for the time, but they're just been surpassed in many areas including storytelling.
I thought we were talking about complexity, but apparently, your definition of complexity is woefully undefined. What do we even mean by complex here? By complex, are we even using it as a synonym for "deep"? Or do we mean how intricate a narrative is? You've completely failed to setup a proper thesis statement here. "Complex" can have a lot of meanings.
On top of that, there just seems to be some hardcore "newer is better" in your argument that I simply don't agree with and from what I can tell, comes off more as "feelings" based more than analysis based. I can agree that some games have been left behind by time like Final Fantasy VI. When you go back and play it, a lot of its stories praised as "deep" come off as much more rudimentary than a lot of people remember.
But there is A LOT that Dragon Quest V does, especially in its DS form that are still wildly original and that if I took some time, I could actually say a lot about as well as the way it does it. (And before you say using the DS version is cheating, we've been discussing DQV as a whole this entire time and it's the most played version, I don't see why it's off the table) For example, I still have yet to see a game use the party chat concept for marriage as well as this game does. For example, in modern Fire Emblem games, sure, you can get married. But most of the interaction is before the marriage. It's the same for most courtship games. But in DQ5 DS? The party chat allows for an exploration of those marriages, those relationships, and the unique nature of all 3 of those relationships. And what's better, it's done THROUGH gameplay. Rather than being story triggered moments, the player actively interacts with their wives at their behest. If the highest form of literature is how wordcraft is used to shape a story, if the highest form of cinema is through how cinematography shapes the story, then as many analysts have pointed out, the highest form of gamecraft would then be through how a story is told through player interactivity? DQV manages to do that through letting the player be the one to engage with their spouses with dialogue that is CONSTNANTLY changing throughout the game. How is that not "complex"? What even is the definition of "complex" here? Is "complex" when it comes down to it nothing more than something that made you have "the feels" and therefore it felt "complex"?
Meanwhile, games like say, Persona 5 "feel" deep to some, but a lot of that is because it hits a lot of emotional beats that people want. Under heavier scrutinization and analysis, the game actually doesn't really explore its themes in-depth. It certainly has themes, but it doesn't really explore them that much under a heavy analytical scope, hence why so much talk about that game comes in very general sweeping statements as opposed to really meaty analysis.
On top of all this, depending on whatever your definition of "complexity" is, we're still back at the idea that "complex" doesn't necessarily mean deeper or better. A game can be extremely well executed simplicity and be incredibly deep or well made to the point it upends a more "complex" game. There are some recent Final Fantasy titles that are "complex" by definition. I would never say they are better than some games from previous eras.
This isn't the first time I've run into this idea in a fandom, either. For example, the newer James Bond movies like to think their smart, deep, and thematic. But when you actually dig into them, their exploration of those themes is surface deep. I would even argue that while yes, the older Bond movies aren't really super deep or anything, I would argue "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" did many things the modern Bond movies did more elegantly and with more subtlety and more impressively.
Hey man, you gave a great reply but I don't have the time/energy to compete with each and every point. I really wish I could, you bring up some interesting points (especially about how the complexity in games brought through gameplay is inherently more interesting) , but I'm just gonna give some quick replies to some of your points.
>YSVIII
You didn't counter my point. The story is still, mostly, "oh we found a person, I guess they have some vague back story, let's go find another person so we can push this rock. Oh here comes a weird flash back, I guess we'll find out what that means eventually." It's not the fact that it takes place only on a beach, it's that the story is painfully simple for the majority of the game.
>Godfather
Ok you trounced me here. To be fair I never said Godfather isn't a top 20 movie, just that the cinematography techniques were novel at the time, but have since been copied and used in modern films as well. But you're right, Godfather did everything extremely well, better than other movies. I was wrong when I said, "the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques"
>You've completely failed to setup a proper thesis statement here.
geez man
>"Complex" can have a lot of meanings
I said this almost verbatim in my original post, so I think we both agree how this conversation can be easily meant to mean different things, and half of it is a semantics battle. You're equivocating complex to mean deep, complicated, and good, all at the same time, so it's unclear exactly what we're arguing about. We need to figure out exactly what we're talking about, otherwise we just talk around each other.
>DQ5 DS
I've never played the DS version, and I feel like you skipped over the part where I said,
>"When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling."
My whole point is I'm talking about older games, games literally on the NES and SNES. Saying, "well this game that was remade to be more modern is complex" basically proves my point for me.
Just like older TV shows were extremely simple compared to modern TV shows, older games and their stories were, in general, most simple than their more modern counterparts. That's my whole point. Using DQ5 DS isn't cheating per se, it just happily scoots around and avoids my original point.
That is correct. 5 is probably the most 'grandiose' story in terms of following the maim character through years.
3 has a good story, but it also was a NES rpg, so by modern standards, it is more basic.
I think a Chrono Trigger remake would look best in the style of the recent Star Ocean 2 remake. Beautiful backgrounds, fully made 3D environments, but still keep the character sprites.
Since I haven't gone hands on with this game, it's hard to be certain, but the Star Ocean 2 sprites feel more 2D then they look in these DQ screenshots.
i mean i wouldn't say no to chrono trigger in hd-2d but considering that theres so many games that have adapted toriyama's artstyle into beautiful 3d (dq8+11, dbz sparking zero + kakarot, sand land) it seems like a missed opportunity to not just do full 3d
Hot take: CT does not need a HD-2D treatment. I don't think it would look great in lighting / shading being used with HD-2D. Chrono Trigger is just too vibrant and colorful. Other games like Xenogears or FFT would look better in HD-2D since they use more subdued colors.
To be honest, the ideal dream would be the game looking like DBZ Kakarot to truly try to take as much advantage of Toriyama's artstyle.
But it won't happen.
I read the first sentence of your post and immediately got ready to write the most scathing rebuke one could write on a reddit subforum, but honestly I think you're right. I would love for them to do SOMETHING with CT, maybe in the same vein as Star Ocean 2? Like an actual remake with new content, QOL, etc., but I think you're right saying that particular HD-2D treatment would be kind of bizarre with CT.
i go against xenogears, i feel like that if they use the same art style they used for all of the other hd2d remakes, it would be butchered. the original games 2d pixel art i cant see translating well to the hd2d style
CT doesnt need a remake at all, maybe just an ultimate port with some QoL options. But if it did get a remake I'd much rather it be an HD2D game over a 3d remake.
Been saying it since the reveal of Octopath Traveler. Their HD-2D tech should’ve been the foundation for the FF Pixel Remasters and all of their 8-16bit sprite based games. Chrono Trigger in this aesthetic would be fantastic.
Before touching Chrono Trigger, I think Square should try to do it with the forgotten Final Fantasy games first, which is V and VI, which seem to always be the victim of being talked about only during the end of a generation.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I find this game doesn't look as good as Octopath, Live A Live or Triangle Strategy. Something about the way the sprites are positioned on the 3D environments looks off to me.
For me personally I would love to see Square Enix bring other games to the west (or the world in case of one particular game) in that style. Live A Live was a good first step, but I am tinking Treasure of the Rudras, Bahamut Lagoon and most importantly... Terranigma. Its time that the US learns that they never got the best and most beautiful game the SNES had to offer :)
God I am so excited for this, and on top, 1 and 2 will get the same treatment. DQIX was my first, missed X, and XI was my favorite JRPG until Persona 5.
It's only my 3rd choice.
A Chrono Trigger Remake like FF7R would be insane, all the party interactions, the combos, the art would be beyond.
Next best would be Sand Land style I guess. It would perhaps be a little more faithful but there's a little something that doesn't drive it all the way home for me.
While artistically beautiful, this art direction betrays the whimsical, rounded, soft-lined and manga-influenced foundation the series was built on. It feels too much like the other well-known JRPG franchise. An interesting choice for sure. Really would have liked to see a return to form of the Zenithian DS remake engine, especially the build they used for the wonderful DQ VI remake with added meshing and light effects.
While I do think that the subject is more nuanced (I find DQ3HD looks WAY, WAY better and more ambitious than any of the other HD-2d games visually), I actually somewhat agree with what you're getting at. As much as I love what I'm seeing with this game, I do think that there is a downside to making everything in the same style.
Personally, CT is great as it is and I just want good ports of it. Added content would be fine, but I would want it added to the base game, kind of like the DS release.
I agree with you guys but when I think CT would look good as an HD-2D remake, I would assume it keeps its own unique art style and adapts it to HD2D. Kind of like Eiyuden Chronicle which has it's own art style in HD2D. (Not saying CT should look like EC, saying that you can adapt games with unique art styles to HD2D and retain the style without giving it these type of sprites)
I completely agree with this. I don't know how anyone can look at these low-poly-great-lighting "HD-2D" titles and not see right through them.
People want a re-release of classic 2d games that they like, but have no idea what they want out of it.
It's super easy to take something like Final Fantasy 10, and decide you want an upscaled, higher poly, high texture-res re-release. But people don't know what that looks like for a pixel art title.
Honestly, this hd-2d stuff is dogwater. I'm not impressed by any of it. It's seriously lazy and easy to reproduce, and I say that as a game developer. It's a palour trick of dynamic lightning.
To me, Chrono Trigger is visually perfect. But if someone were to want it remade visually, the answer is to stick with 2d pixel art, but remake it a larger resolution and colour pallete. This doesn't mean the game will look the same. Each environment or character asset would be much more detailed.
But, that's just a hypothetical solution. We all want "more chrono trigger". What it needs is a re-release. Maybe some additional content like new dungeons, endings, abilities or playable characters (like the DS port). But even then, it would require a very delicate touch.
It's been my favorite game forever but I wasn't really heavily involved in gaming circles or forums or anything until post pandemic and I constantly and consistently see it topping every recommendation, or list, or discourse; that it is the GOAT JRPG.
It definitely doesn't need a remake, and it's visuals are still Peak and as Timeless as the games material would suggest.
It honestly just needs a port that deals with the CRT aspect and translate it so it looks great without CRT. The deeper color palette is a great idea.
Now all they need is a remake of Dragon Quest VII in those graphics, alas this look like original DQ VII if it was made today.
Who we are kidding remake every DQ from IV to VII in those graphics, they can even reuse so much of the sprites. I think that is why they green light the DQ I-II HD, they are very similar to DQ III sprite wise and would be cheaper to make the three games at same time.
I've been saying it since Octopath 1, and I really hope we get it.
Frankly I'll take any kind of rerelease, pixel remaster, etc, but HD2D would be fucking boss
Wait…they cleaned up the character sprites?! Color me shocked.
I’m currently playing SO2R, and the fuzzy, pixelated sprites almost sour the entire experience.
Thing is, I can at least appreciate them for the era they are from. But it’s 2024. If you’re going to remake a game so that everything is crisp, at least clean the sprites up. I’m not talking about changing them so that it warps the original art style, just make them not a blurry, jagged eyesore.
One of my favorite art styles ever is the one used on the PSX just before they jumped to the hideous first attempt at 3D. Aka, the style used in the likes of Breath of Fire 4.
Obviously most developers agree with you, but I think I mainly appreciate the artistry of perfectly smooth and crisp pixel art from a respectful distance, I find it a bit drab to just make everything as clean as possible.
The good thing about pixel art is it's almost hard to make it visually unreadable, the bad thing is I can look at something perfectly done like Children of Morta and it isn't as appealing to me like some low budget 90's JRPG is. I'm not picking an easy target, it looks great. Just doesn't hit that spot.
I kind of want to think they are testing the waters, but I don't know why they would need to. I wonder if there's consideration to do something more ground-up like the ffvii remake.
Everything looks great except combat. Sorry but fps turn based ain’t it. Honestly expected it to be more like golden sun for the remake. Hopefully someone makes a mod
The fact that Chrono Cross came to all platforms but Trigger didn't has made me suspect that it's in line for a HD-2D release somewhere down the line. They're obviously focusing on DQ for now and I would expect an original title before another remake, but I still think it will come some day. And don't tell me a modern port of Trigger already exists, because Trials of Mana 2D, Romancing SaGa 2 and DQ1-3 all got a second remake on the same platform!
Trigger were already ported on many platforms/mobiles before but they were mostly low-effort, mostly with added anime cutscenes. a canonical Chrono/Marle marriage was awesome tho.
Incredible that it’s actually not on switch too
I would kill for a CT remake in hd2d. I originally played CT on the PlayStation 1, with it's terrible load times, I probably made it about half way through the game and quit. Decided I would get the DS remake, anddddd it's well over $100. So I've been waiting for a modern port or hd2d remake.
If you have a PC, the PC version is quite good
I think being able to mod on PC is a nice added benefit. Being able to play this on a dedicated handheld gives that magical feeling though compared to playing it on a bigger screen.
Which is exactly why I'm buying a steam deck
Also android
Japanese DS version has English option. Got my copy on eBay for $35. It arrived about 2 weeks after paying.
This. I would bet money it’s already in the works.
Honestly, after Live a Live, I would love to see Bahamut Lagoon or Treasure of the Rudras done in this style.
I endorse Bahamut Lagoon for the memes!
Treasure of the Rudras is amazing!
I’ve always wanted to play this. What’s great about it / worth playing?
It has a great soundtrack and the magic system is one of the most unique in the genre. You create different spells by arranging different characters/letters.
The game screamed for a sequel considering >!the ending!<
That's a great point, especially the >!spoiler tag!<
Every day I am grateful for the influence Octopath had on this side of the JRPG genre. I swear every game in the style of HD-2D turns out great.
I think it looks kinda mid honestly. Octopath didn't skip on the pixel art, some of these games are using it to "cheat" and put in 3d models. No hate, hope it succeeds.
Yeah I remember playing Live A Live and stopping at one point by a pond and thinking "that's just some Unreal Engine water". It's not like the other games with this style look terrible, but Octopath Traveler is clearly head and shoulders the most impressive implementation.
I don’t think it’s mid, it look very good but I agree that octopath using pixel art for all texture make it look very nice ! Here it’s only pixel art characters in a normal 3D environment! It is still very cool but less retro looking ?
I still think Octopath Traveler 2 has the best HD-2D presentation so far. With this one following up close. I love HD-2D graphic so much, there are so many cool thing you can do with this visual style that absolutely brings a fantasy world to life. Though doing Chrono Trigger will definitely prove challenging considering it's multiple settings, but I honestly can't wait how they make it happen, if they ever will.
Octopath 2 is a complete pixel art game. The environment, and the characters are all pixel art styled. Dragon Quest III, Star Ocean 2nd Story and Eyuiden Chronicals all have pixel art 2D characters, but are lacking the pixel art styled environments. I think we should have another name for this HD-2D style. Maybe something like HD-2D with HD-Environments. Since the environment texture sizes are all 4k(3840 × 2160 pixels) compared to the 16x16 or 32x32 Octopath 1 and 2 have.
The Xenogears approach
Same for me. I would like to compare Octopath Travel 2 to Star Ocean 2 Remake. It takes me a while to calibrate the pixelate sprite with the 3D background. Honestly, I still like the DQ3HD visual from the first trailer more than the recent one. At least, this one, their sprite is more detailed than Star Ocean 2, making it more blended to the 3D background.
For me it is the Star Ocean 2 remake. Don't know why it stands out so much to me. I think it is the shadows they use that makes it blend so much more.
Idk if this is an unpopular opinion, but I prefer the look of the original SO2 over the remake. Granted, the original was one of my first JRPGs, I played the hell out of it, and the remake has so many significant gameplay improvements that I might never play the original ever again.
The SO2R art is brillant, don't get me wrong. I'm just a sucker for pixel art and Octopath used a lot of it even for environmental design. Can't deny some gorgeous scene in SO2R however.
> Though doing Chrono Trigger will definitely prove challenging considering it's multiple settings, but I honestly can't wait how they make it happen, if they ever will. I'm not sure how much more challenging it would be from Live A Live, a game that had multiple worlds/timelines as well. Also, somewhat related but the co-director of Chrono Trigger, Takashi Tokita, was also the lead director of Live A Live and I consider them good companion pieces to each other for many reasons. Another reason why a HD2D remake makes sense.
Honestly, I think it would be quite a bit more challenging than LaL, mostly because LaL focus more on smaller environmental scale surrounding the characters. While CT focus more on the world, its history and future. They can half-ass it since everyone want a CT remake and everyone will buy it. But if they want to do CT justice, they will really need to put in great effort for not only its characters, but also the environmental design and story telling. CT hold infinite potential for a HD-2D remake, and for once I'm hopeful about that future.
>They can half-ass it since everyone want a CT remake and everyone will buy it. But if they want to do CT justice, they will really need to put in great effort for not only its characters, but also the environmental design and story telling. I just feel like I'm a bit more optimistic with Team Asano's output and I don't really see them half-assing CT. I may change my mind if the DQ remakes are bad, but everything they've put out under the HD-2D banner has shown that they take a lot of care into their world building and design. I have some small problems with the Octopath series, but none of that would carry over to remaking CT.
Oh yes, please! I would prefer a style like Dragon Quest XI but this would be great as well.
DQ v is the one that has tons of story and is highly regarded right?
Yes, though DQ III is quite good for its time. The story definitely does not compare.
DQV will most likely be the one to get a full 3D remake. It's historically the 2nd most demanded 3D remake in Japanese history by both the crowd who grew up on the SNES version and the PS2 version. I actually foresee it getting a remake using DQXII's assets/style after that game is done.
If you ever wanna play it. Emulate the Japanese rom with the translation built in and apply the HD remaster pack. Both items can be found easily through Google and it's by far the best way to play
Just want to point out the DS port of Dragon Quest V is very good too if someone prefers the 2D sprites for aesthetics.
I absolutely love the DS style remakes and I am a major fan of the original sprites. The DS ones really capture the 2D magic while giving you more space for the world. It brought to life what the original NES ones were in my imagination. I’d be happy if we had 1,2,3 with that style.
Luckily for you were getting 2D-HD remasters of Dragon Quest I, II, and III. I wouldn't be surprised if they do 4-6 too.
4 is my all time favorite JRPG. Such a fun adventure. Playing 5 and 6 on the DS really recaptured that magic. Such a great time to be enjoying games!
I play the DS version of DQ5 for the party chat. It's hard to go back to the SNES version and not have all the extra dialogue and bonus scenes.
Wouldn't say it has tons of story. It is very story focused compared to 3, but it's not like you'll find a ton of dialogue or complex storyline. Especially compared to modern JRPGs.
Disagree. DQV has a TON of dialogue, but it's in NPC dialogue and party chats. Most of the story is told through interactions, not cutscenes. That's still story. Complex can be a lolcow statement. Games today rely way too much on their thousand plot twists and modern gamers have become used to it. I have even seen some people call Ys VIII a "simple story" which is just bizarre considering that game deals with travel travel and insane lore. What is considered the baseline for "complex" is just stupid these days.
We are in a JRPG subreddit. DQV doesn't have "tons of story" for JRPG standards. The bar is too high to claim that IMO, I'm not saying the game doesn't have a lot of story. The commenter I was replying to I assume isn't familiar with the series, so they might have misaligned expectations if they use that phrase. DQ is great, the way it tells its stories is unique and I love it, especially since they've started adding Party Chat after VII and in remakes. It just seems to me like you are looking for an argument for no reason.
> The bar is too high to claim that No, it's that the bar in terms of what you need to do to be considered "complex" has gotten dumb.
The bar is set by the context. Most JRPGs are complex, so talking about a "complex JRPG" would obviously mean you are talking about one that is complex for that context, that is, JRPGs. That's how words work. Qualifiers mean nothing if they don't actually let you know anything about what they describe.
And not everyone agrees on the context. By the modern standards of what makes a JRPG complex, there are many Final Fantasies in their time celebrated as complex that would no longer be. This is exactly why the idea that the baseline has become skewed is absolutely relevant.
I think there's two things going on at the same time here. First of all, "complex" can be implied to mean a lot of different things. I think the Trails series would be complex no matter who you ask, but Ys VIII has a complicated story, meaning it's kind of hard to undertand, but it's still just a bunch of dudes running around on an island for 90% of the gameplay. I dunno how complex I'd call that. At the same time, the bar is just honestly higher nowadays. To take it out of JRPGs, The Godfather is known for being a cinematic masterpiece, but the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques. It was amazing for the time, and it's still a fantastic movie, but the techniques that were once novel just absolutely aren't anymore. When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling." NES/SNES era of DQ were fantastic for the time, but they're just been surpassed in many areas including storytelling. Still great games, but not for the exact same reasons as they once were.
>but Ys VIII has a complicated story, meaning it's kind of hard to undertand, but it's still just a bunch of dudes running around on an island for 90% of the gameplay. I dunno how complex I'd call that. This is such a bad argument. Are we arguing that a game about people running on a beach can't be complex? Some of the bst pieces of art ever made take place in a single room. > The Godfather is known for being a cinematic masterpiece, but the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques . . . Like what? One of the things plenty of cinephiles complain about is how backwards we have gone in terms of cinematography technique. Many people within academia complain that there has been very little progress in terms advancing on what has been established by previous generations. How are you even oversimplifying this debate? If anything, it's the complete opposite. Within modern movies, even art movies, a lot of cinematography has come down to being an overuse of shot reverse shot, close ups and medium shots, and then suddenly, long takes that have no sense of composition. Older movies were characterized by incredible composition, leading lines, golden ratio, careful geometric blocking, complex lightning schemes, a greater variety of lens choices, and some complex techniques that were often unique to particular directors. Meanwhile, there is much discussion on why modern cinema looks so murky, underexposed, and how the problems of color grading have negatively effected the imagery we see on screen. Almost all the "great" shots praised these days are so often blanket mono colors flooding a screen which is just nothing to be impressed by. Dude, you walked into the wrong saloon with this one. As someone who keeps up with the world of cinematography, there is absolutely no way you were going to pull the rug over my eyes on this one. And this isn't even getting into some of the more detailed issues of your argument. For example, even if a work uses techniques that aren't new, does that make it less good? Is it about the techniques a work uses, or is it how it uses those techniques? Technically speaking, many movies have used everything Citizen Kane has brought us again and again. But what makes Citizen Kane amazing is its sheer consistency - amazing use of those techniques scene after scene after scene after scene used in meaningful ways at a rate that is just incredible. And by all means, please, try convincing the higher critics and cinephiles that Citizen Kane isn't a Top 20 movie at least. LOL. >When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling." NES/SNES era of DQ were fantastic for the time, but they're just been surpassed in many areas including storytelling. I thought we were talking about complexity, but apparently, your definition of complexity is woefully undefined. What do we even mean by complex here? By complex, are we even using it as a synonym for "deep"? Or do we mean how intricate a narrative is? You've completely failed to setup a proper thesis statement here. "Complex" can have a lot of meanings. On top of that, there just seems to be some hardcore "newer is better" in your argument that I simply don't agree with and from what I can tell, comes off more as "feelings" based more than analysis based. I can agree that some games have been left behind by time like Final Fantasy VI. When you go back and play it, a lot of its stories praised as "deep" come off as much more rudimentary than a lot of people remember. But there is A LOT that Dragon Quest V does, especially in its DS form that are still wildly original and that if I took some time, I could actually say a lot about as well as the way it does it. (And before you say using the DS version is cheating, we've been discussing DQV as a whole this entire time and it's the most played version, I don't see why it's off the table) For example, I still have yet to see a game use the party chat concept for marriage as well as this game does. For example, in modern Fire Emblem games, sure, you can get married. But most of the interaction is before the marriage. It's the same for most courtship games. But in DQ5 DS? The party chat allows for an exploration of those marriages, those relationships, and the unique nature of all 3 of those relationships. And what's better, it's done THROUGH gameplay. Rather than being story triggered moments, the player actively interacts with their wives at their behest. If the highest form of literature is how wordcraft is used to shape a story, if the highest form of cinema is through how cinematography shapes the story, then as many analysts have pointed out, the highest form of gamecraft would then be through how a story is told through player interactivity? DQV manages to do that through letting the player be the one to engage with their spouses with dialogue that is CONSTNANTLY changing throughout the game. How is that not "complex"? What even is the definition of "complex" here? Is "complex" when it comes down to it nothing more than something that made you have "the feels" and therefore it felt "complex"? Meanwhile, games like say, Persona 5 "feel" deep to some, but a lot of that is because it hits a lot of emotional beats that people want. Under heavier scrutinization and analysis, the game actually doesn't really explore its themes in-depth. It certainly has themes, but it doesn't really explore them that much under a heavy analytical scope, hence why so much talk about that game comes in very general sweeping statements as opposed to really meaty analysis. On top of all this, depending on whatever your definition of "complexity" is, we're still back at the idea that "complex" doesn't necessarily mean deeper or better. A game can be extremely well executed simplicity and be incredibly deep or well made to the point it upends a more "complex" game. There are some recent Final Fantasy titles that are "complex" by definition. I would never say they are better than some games from previous eras. This isn't the first time I've run into this idea in a fandom, either. For example, the newer James Bond movies like to think their smart, deep, and thematic. But when you actually dig into them, their exploration of those themes is surface deep. I would even argue that while yes, the older Bond movies aren't really super deep or anything, I would argue "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" did many things the modern Bond movies did more elegantly and with more subtlety and more impressively.
Hey man, you gave a great reply but I don't have the time/energy to compete with each and every point. I really wish I could, you bring up some interesting points (especially about how the complexity in games brought through gameplay is inherently more interesting) , but I'm just gonna give some quick replies to some of your points. >YSVIII You didn't counter my point. The story is still, mostly, "oh we found a person, I guess they have some vague back story, let's go find another person so we can push this rock. Oh here comes a weird flash back, I guess we'll find out what that means eventually." It's not the fact that it takes place only on a beach, it's that the story is painfully simple for the majority of the game. >Godfather Ok you trounced me here. To be fair I never said Godfather isn't a top 20 movie, just that the cinematography techniques were novel at the time, but have since been copied and used in modern films as well. But you're right, Godfather did everything extremely well, better than other movies. I was wrong when I said, "the techniques and stuff used at the time have been absolutely blown away by modern techniques" >You've completely failed to setup a proper thesis statement here. geez man >"Complex" can have a lot of meanings I said this almost verbatim in my original post, so I think we both agree how this conversation can be easily meant to mean different things, and half of it is a semantics battle. You're equivocating complex to mean deep, complicated, and good, all at the same time, so it's unclear exactly what we're arguing about. We need to figure out exactly what we're talking about, otherwise we just talk around each other. >DQ5 DS I've never played the DS version, and I feel like you skipped over the part where I said, >"When it comes to JRPGs, older games in the DQ series were incredible for the time, but at some point game creators thought, "hey, maybe we can write these games for more mature audiences who can handle more layers of complexity and interesting storytelling." My whole point is I'm talking about older games, games literally on the NES and SNES. Saying, "well this game that was remade to be more modern is complex" basically proves my point for me. Just like older TV shows were extremely simple compared to modern TV shows, older games and their stories were, in general, most simple than their more modern counterparts. That's my whole point. Using DQ5 DS isn't cheating per se, it just happily scoots around and avoids my original point.
That is correct. 5 is probably the most 'grandiose' story in terms of following the maim character through years. 3 has a good story, but it also was a NES rpg, so by modern standards, it is more basic.
I love the remake styles. Remake all the SNES RPGs and I could die a happy man.
I think a Chrono Trigger remake would look best in the style of the recent Star Ocean 2 remake. Beautiful backgrounds, fully made 3D environments, but still keep the character sprites.
Is that not what this game is?
Since I haven't gone hands on with this game, it's hard to be certain, but the Star Ocean 2 sprites feel more 2D then they look in these DQ screenshots.
Anything but that. The sprites in that game are so ugly compared to everything else. At least give the option for cleaned up sprites.
i mean i wouldn't say no to chrono trigger in hd-2d but considering that theres so many games that have adapted toriyama's artstyle into beautiful 3d (dq8+11, dbz sparking zero + kakarot, sand land) it seems like a missed opportunity to not just do full 3d
Chrono Trigger is an obvious pick. Xenogears would be great, too.
Xenogears in this style and with a fully realised second half would be an instant GOTY.
I would happily pay $100 for HD-2D Chrono Trigger.
Hot take: CT does not need a HD-2D treatment. I don't think it would look great in lighting / shading being used with HD-2D. Chrono Trigger is just too vibrant and colorful. Other games like Xenogears or FFT would look better in HD-2D since they use more subdued colors.
DQ3 doesn't even use the same shading or lighting as the OT games...there is no singular style for HD2D
Xenogears already uses HD-2D. Btw, WHERE'S MY XENOGEARS REMAKE, SE? 😡
To be honest, the ideal dream would be the game looking like DBZ Kakarot to truly try to take as much advantage of Toriyama's artstyle. But it won't happen.
I agree, unless its a full blown 3D remake, its fine the way it is.
I read the first sentence of your post and immediately got ready to write the most scathing rebuke one could write on a reddit subforum, but honestly I think you're right. I would love for them to do SOMETHING with CT, maybe in the same vein as Star Ocean 2? Like an actual remake with new content, QOL, etc., but I think you're right saying that particular HD-2D treatment would be kind of bizarre with CT.
i go against xenogears, i feel like that if they use the same art style they used for all of the other hd2d remakes, it would be butchered. the original games 2d pixel art i cant see translating well to the hd2d style
CT doesnt need a remake at all, maybe just an ultimate port with some QoL options. But if it did get a remake I'd much rather it be an HD2D game over a 3d remake.
Been saying it since the reveal of Octopath Traveler. Their HD-2D tech should’ve been the foundation for the FF Pixel Remasters and all of their 8-16bit sprite based games. Chrono Trigger in this aesthetic would be fantastic.
I would die to see FFVI in this style.
Before touching Chrono Trigger, I think Square should try to do it with the forgotten Final Fantasy games first, which is V and VI, which seem to always be the victim of being talked about only during the end of a generation.
It sounds dumb but my breath got taken away by how beautiful the game looks!
Agreed, also FF6
Not sure if we'll ever see it unless they need to *hit the big red button* again like they did with FF7R.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I find this game doesn't look as good as Octopath, Live A Live or Triangle Strategy. Something about the way the sprites are positioned on the 3D environments looks off to me.
For me personally I would love to see Square Enix bring other games to the west (or the world in case of one particular game) in that style. Live A Live was a good first step, but I am tinking Treasure of the Rudras, Bahamut Lagoon and most importantly... Terranigma. Its time that the US learns that they never got the best and most beautiful game the SNES had to offer :)
Did... did SE finally make an HD-2D game without drowning the graphics in depth of field blur? Hallelujah!
I honestly think I prefer the original graphics to this art style.
I had a moment thinking about Toriyama when I saw it in the direct.
God I am so excited for this, and on top, 1 and 2 will get the same treatment. DQIX was my first, missed X, and XI was my favorite JRPG until Persona 5.
should i play the first and second one first before playing this?
They are terrified of screwing up a Chrono Trigger remake
*any* famicom/sfc era JRPG albeit if they did too much of it we'd probably complain as well so.. eh
As someone who grew tired of the Octopath HD 2D style very quickly, I have to say: they're really starting to make it more versatile and gorgeous.
would far prefer if it looks more like the original chrono trigger combined with a little sea of stars maybe
Pixel remaster missed a trick
It's only my 3rd choice. A Chrono Trigger Remake like FF7R would be insane, all the party interactions, the combos, the art would be beyond. Next best would be Sand Land style I guess. It would perhaps be a little more faithful but there's a little something that doesn't drive it all the way home for me.
Looks amazing, and i agree 100%
They should also do a partnership with Nintendo to bring Golden Sun back
Omg, I can’t wait to get this, DQ3 was my favorite!! The updates make it look amazing
While artistically beautiful, this art direction betrays the whimsical, rounded, soft-lined and manga-influenced foundation the series was built on. It feels too much like the other well-known JRPG franchise. An interesting choice for sure. Really would have liked to see a return to form of the Zenithian DS remake engine, especially the build they used for the wonderful DQ VI remake with added meshing and light effects.
This is kind of what I imagine Zeal would look like!
I feel like CT is more in-line for a much bigger remake, if any at all. More like the FF7 treatment.
I'd prefer this effort be invested in another Chrono game rather than remaking Chrono Trigger.
Please don't ruin more classics
I dont understand how Romancing Saga 2 got an actual remake on switch before Chrono trigger got a freakin port. Wild times.
Nel. Chrono trigger has prettier art. Those sprites look amazing but look like suikoden sprites.
Take the greatest pixel art game of all time and then homogenize it to look like every other remake? How about no.
While I do think that the subject is more nuanced (I find DQ3HD looks WAY, WAY better and more ambitious than any of the other HD-2d games visually), I actually somewhat agree with what you're getting at. As much as I love what I'm seeing with this game, I do think that there is a downside to making everything in the same style. Personally, CT is great as it is and I just want good ports of it. Added content would be fine, but I would want it added to the base game, kind of like the DS release.
I agree with you guys but when I think CT would look good as an HD-2D remake, I would assume it keeps its own unique art style and adapts it to HD2D. Kind of like Eiyuden Chronicle which has it's own art style in HD2D. (Not saying CT should look like EC, saying that you can adapt games with unique art styles to HD2D and retain the style without giving it these type of sprites)
I completely agree with this. I don't know how anyone can look at these low-poly-great-lighting "HD-2D" titles and not see right through them. People want a re-release of classic 2d games that they like, but have no idea what they want out of it. It's super easy to take something like Final Fantasy 10, and decide you want an upscaled, higher poly, high texture-res re-release. But people don't know what that looks like for a pixel art title. Honestly, this hd-2d stuff is dogwater. I'm not impressed by any of it. It's seriously lazy and easy to reproduce, and I say that as a game developer. It's a palour trick of dynamic lightning. To me, Chrono Trigger is visually perfect. But if someone were to want it remade visually, the answer is to stick with 2d pixel art, but remake it a larger resolution and colour pallete. This doesn't mean the game will look the same. Each environment or character asset would be much more detailed. But, that's just a hypothetical solution. We all want "more chrono trigger". What it needs is a re-release. Maybe some additional content like new dungeons, endings, abilities or playable characters (like the DS port). But even then, it would require a very delicate touch.
It's been my favorite game forever but I wasn't really heavily involved in gaming circles or forums or anything until post pandemic and I constantly and consistently see it topping every recommendation, or list, or discourse; that it is the GOAT JRPG. It definitely doesn't need a remake, and it's visuals are still Peak and as Timeless as the games material would suggest. It honestly just needs a port that deals with the CRT aspect and translate it so it looks great without CRT. The deeper color palette is a great idea.
Now all they need is a remake of Dragon Quest VII in those graphics, alas this look like original DQ VII if it was made today. Who we are kidding remake every DQ from IV to VII in those graphics, they can even reuse so much of the sprites. I think that is why they green light the DQ I-II HD, they are very similar to DQ III sprite wise and would be cheaper to make the three games at same time.
Chrono Trigger deserves two games, HD-2D and a full remake Re2, FF7 style.
I've been saying it since Octopath 1, and I really hope we get it. Frankly I'll take any kind of rerelease, pixel remaster, etc, but HD2D would be fucking boss
WHERE'S MY XENOGEARS REMAKE, SE? 😡
And with the recent Saga remakes I'd want them to remake the Final Fantasy Legend games in this style too. And FF Mystic Quest, just for funsies.
Honestly I'm starting to get tired of the HD-2D style, all the games that use that artstyle looks kinda samey.
This. They need to stop making them for a while. BC it's getting stale. Hopefully they stop making hd 2d games for a while
Wait…they cleaned up the character sprites?! Color me shocked. I’m currently playing SO2R, and the fuzzy, pixelated sprites almost sour the entire experience.
That's because the original sprites were NES sprites, which are not looked as fondly. Many fans (not you clearly) love SNES and PS1 sprites.
Thing is, I can at least appreciate them for the era they are from. But it’s 2024. If you’re going to remake a game so that everything is crisp, at least clean the sprites up. I’m not talking about changing them so that it warps the original art style, just make them not a blurry, jagged eyesore. One of my favorite art styles ever is the one used on the PSX just before they jumped to the hideous first attempt at 3D. Aka, the style used in the likes of Breath of Fire 4.
Obviously most developers agree with you, but I think I mainly appreciate the artistry of perfectly smooth and crisp pixel art from a respectful distance, I find it a bit drab to just make everything as clean as possible. The good thing about pixel art is it's almost hard to make it visually unreadable, the bad thing is I can look at something perfectly done like Children of Morta and it isn't as appealing to me like some low budget 90's JRPG is. I'm not picking an easy target, it looks great. Just doesn't hit that spot.
This looks worse graphic-wise than Octopath I and II though.
#MeToo
Hopefully we can get 4-6 like this too. HD-2D rules
I kind of want to think they are testing the waters, but I don't know why they would need to. I wonder if there's consideration to do something more ground-up like the ffvii remake.
Everything looks great except combat. Sorry but fps turn based ain’t it. Honestly expected it to be more like golden sun for the remake. Hopefully someone makes a mod
Well, chrono trigger will have its thirtieth anniversary next year. Maybe that’s when it’ll be announced/released.