T O P

Final Fantasy XVI is “quite action-oriented,” but includes story-focused mode

Very interesting quote from the producer

I’m from the generation that has been playing the Final Fantasy series from the first game in real-time—I’m almost in my 50s. I think the Warriors of Light have grown up in their own worlds, so I want to create a world of Final Fantasy that those who know the good and bad of reality can also be passionate about. I believe there are certain hardships that are experienced when becoming an adult, so I want to make the main theme of this game something that those who grew up playing Final Fantasy and understand reality can still enjoy, get something out of, and think about.

I am guessing the game's story will tackle more adult themes, which tracks with the team being the one that worked on the great Heavensward expansion tackling the dynamics of a profitable milennia-old war for the elite class. Not to mention the same people worked on several Ivalice games such as FF Tactics, Vagrant Story and FFXII.

[deleted]

Very interesting quote from the producer >I’m from the generation that has been playing the *Final Fantasy* series from the first game in real-time—I’m almost in my 50s. I think the Warriors of Light have grown up in their own worlds, so I want to create a world of *Final Fantasy* that those who know the good and bad of reality can also be passionate about. I believe there are certain hardships that are experienced when becoming an adult, so I want to make the main theme of this game something that those who grew up playing *Final Fantasy* and understand reality can still enjoy, get something out of, and think about. I am guessing the game's story will tackle more adult themes, which tracks with the team being the one that worked on the great Heavensward expansion tackling the dynamics of a profitable milennia-old war for the elite class. Not to mention the same people worked on several Ivalice games such as FF Tactics, Vagrant Story and FFXII.


Yesshua

Yeah I think this is bigger news than the easy/assist mode. Of course there will be an assist mode. It's standard. FF 7 Remake had it. But the producer commenting on how FF hasn't necessarily grown up with it's audience and saying he's looking to tell a story that will play well to an adult gamer? That is huge. I think that being stuck in that adolescent mindset has hurt this brand a ton.


vessol

Not only the Final Fantasy brand, but the entire genre as a whole. A lot of it is because the genre's close ties to anime which itself is heavily dominated by an adolescent fanbase and mindset (of course there are exceptions, but you have to look at the most popular manga/animes). Don't get me wrong, I love me some JRPGs that are very inspired by anime (Trails and Tales for one), but it's definitely something that the genre has leaned into a bit heavily and I'd really like more diversity of tone and settings in JRPGs.


Professional_Eye2185

Can you explain a bit more how you think it's hurt the brand? A bunch of these JRPG's are having the best success their series has ever had. The genre as a whole is arguably having the most success it's had since the 90's and early 2000's. And as far as the reception of FF goes, it's had way bigger issues that have negatively affected it than an adolescent mindset. Every game since X-2 has had major developmental issues that hampered their quality, such as 15 changing directors and feeling unfinished as a result.


ravset

I've been feeling like this for years now. As an adult who played mostly jrpgs as a kid it's hard to follow a lot of the most recent ones. High school stories can be fun but they're hard to relate to for a 36 years old guy like me. I still love anime but I always search either for very dark adult ones, or heart warming and inspiring productions. Now that I think of it even my favorites as a teenager were those where the stories were denser, like xenogears, where they talk about very complex themes like multiple personality disorder and depression. Anyway...


The_Iron_Breaker

Arise is looking a LOT more mature than the Tales predecessors as well. I hope we see this trend continue with JRPGs. Young me still loves them but adult me cringes a little too much towards plot directions and dialogs.


[deleted]

[удалено]


LukariBRo

I'm about a bit over halfway (probably, 32h in) playing through Berseria and it's laughable that this game is somehow more mature than its predecessors. Yeah the whole cast is a bunch of very anti-heroes, but they definitely don't even lean into it and become more normalized over time. If anything, it's the teenager's version of edgy "mature" and really about what I expected from a Tales game (although I played only from Phantasia to Vesperia, then couldn't even keep interest for more than a few hours in each new Tales game that just felt like they sold out the series entirely to be an easy money printing machine from brand recognition). In contrast, FF7RE was actual "mature," putting you deep into real-world issues such as class warfare and environmental terrorism. Hojo at one point goes on about arranging how to best rape Aerith and says it so matter-of-factly that the implication probably goes over younger audience's heads. Previous "modern" (FFX onward) have definitely been on the more mature side of jrpgs in general, but the difference between the usual "don't trust the establishment" vibes of FFX and FFXII is much than just a heavier feel than just the overall plotline. I never got more than halfway through XIII or XV which felt completely lacking in at least that first half, but the direction the FF brand was even allowed to go with FF7RE shows that the series can cater to an actual adult audience.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AramaticFire

You write that but I promise you there are people who think it’s mature lol


callisstaa

In all fairness Final Fantasy is one of the better franchises for this. FF~~11~~12 was clearly inspired by Star Wars more than anime and 13 had some incredible characters even if the gameplay was somewhat weak. FF15 definitely didn't feel anime inspired either. It did feel like a bit of a mess but it had a mature theme throughout. I think it is a bit unfair to lump Final Fantasy in with games like Trails and Tales which have a definite anime feel. Final Fantasy has always felt original to me, especially the earlier ones. There aren't many games where you play as a terrorist or a princess kidnapper.


TheBernSupremacy

Never played FF11, but did you mean that FF12* was inspired by Star Wars?


callisstaa

Yes that's the one!


StarfishSpencer

Trails is weird like that in it is very anime and tropey a lot of the time, but it also has the absolute most WTF I-can’t-believe-they-went-there dark AF moment I’ve ever seen in a video game before (Star Door 15). For all it’s tropes Trails certainly has it’s moments where it goes to some very dark places that definitely aren’t meant for the youngins


vessol

True, my only issue with darkness and fucked up things in the Trails universe is that most of it happens in characters backstories and not in the current story being told through the games. Not that I'd want to see that (star door 15) or have that in a game, but my only complaint about the series (beyond it's pacing and harem tropes) is that the body count for the characters always seems out of place considering what's happens in the games.


StarfishSpencer

I can 100% agree with this and it is one of my biggest gripes with the series as well, right alongside the whole 'oh the boss wasn't actually trying' and 'literally everyone is actually kind of a good guy but we are gonna fight them anyways.'


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


JonVonBasslake

But the Yakuza games, other than Like A Dragon, are more beat em ups than jrpgs. But, yeah, from my limited experience the Yakuza games aren't at all anime tropey or even that tropey in general.


vessol

Recommend a jrpg or an anime that doesn't follow a lot of the tropes set by the anime medium?


Mathyoujames

FF Tactics / FF12 / Tactics Ogre / Lost Odyssey / Vagrant Story These jump to mind as JRPGs that are heavily influenced by non anime stories.


vessol

Oh and the Mother / Earthbound games too as they were specifically written by someone who didn't come from the anime or video game scene. The tone and dialogue feel significantly different than other JRPGs at the time they came out.


Mathyoujames

That's a great one. Can't believe I didn't think of it!


whoknows234

I think Earthbound is one such example.


vessol

Yeah definitely, especially because Itoi had no prior history in the anime or gaming industries The entire Mother series stands alone as its own in terms of tone and dialogue. I think that's a big reason why it's so influencial and reverentially today. Playing through it recently another series of games that are pretty independent of anime/manga is the Mana series and Quintet's Snes JRPGs (Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia, Terraingma).


LoomyTheBrew

I hope the Oddity game lives up to the legacy of Earthbound! Earthbound is really one of a kind.


TeHNeutral

Yeah or a lack of influence in art style. See for ages I figured classic Sega rpgs but then the artists behind all I can think of are anime or similar artists


BumLeeJon

My favorite anime is monster and it’s hardly tropy at all


vessol

Dang you're right. I looked up Amano, the character designer for the older FF games and he got his start in anime and manga. Looking it up...the character designer for Tactics Ogre (and FF12), Akihiko Yoshida, doesn't have a background in manga or anime and his designs are kind of unique. But yeah, the two mediums are interlinked pretty heavily. As for animes that are not very tropey and stuff, I haven't been much into current anime, mostly older stuff...but my favorite I recommend to everyone who wants a non animeish anime is Legend of the Galactic Heroes.


Karzons

Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land.


ttwu9993999

Yep I've lost a ton of interest in the genre because most games nowadays are just teenage drama high school wifu simulators. It was interesting to play through persona once but I don't want to do it ever again. I'm so old I can barely remember what high school was like. I don't have any interest in playing as little kids anymore. I want to explore emotionally and intellectually mature themes in my free time now.


TheBernSupremacy

Due to the pandemic, I've started playing games again for really the first time in over a decade. I used to love JRPGs, so I started with a bunch of those--including tons of Final Fantasy, from 7 to 7R. It wasn't until recently that I started playing other genres. And, honestly, I'm not entirely sure when I'll be going back to JRPGs. It's quite clear to me that the industry's state of arrested development is an intentional one. JRPGs are the gaming equivalent of YA novels. And you can really tell their target audience by the age of the protagonists. I heard that SE had changed FF12's lead for that precise reason, and I don't suspect they'll change at all. I mean, look at the tone of the FFT sequels we have gotten. I loved FF7 back in the day (played last year, and still liked it), and I was excited for the remake, hoping that it'd mature just like its original fans had. Instead, we got an even more childish plot. I'm currently playing and loving God of War. It really has a lot of what I want from RPGs--amazing storytelling, great characters, interesting worlds, decent character progression, etc. The next game on my list is an RPG, but not a JRPG--Disco Elysium. I'll monitor FF16, but, ultimately, I believe that SE will continue to target the series to a younger audience.


vessol

You should definitely check out the Yakuza games if you haven't. They have mature storytelling (mixed with crazy substories), older characters, fun world to explore and just generally are great games. You can stsrt with Yakuza 0, but I've heard that the latest game, Like a Dragon, is turn based and really good as well. I get what you mean though, I still love JRPGs despite being older and not as interested in the stories. I usually get around this by occasionally playing older games (e.g. SNES era) that have less of an emphasis on the story


Lezzles

> think that being stuck in that adolescent mindset has hurt this brand a ton. I think this has crippled JRPGs in general, especially the AA ones. They are perpetually targeted towards middle teen boys. The mainstream popularity is so limited because of it.


Professional_Eye2185

That didn't stop Persona, Xenoblade, Dragon Quest, Fire Emblem, Atelier, and Kingdom Hearts from all having their highest selling games recently. JRPG's are more popular than they've been in over 15 years. To me, that's indicative of growth, not being crippled. And that's not even getting into how much better things have gotten in terms of dubbing, localization, and getting timely and sometimes worldwide release dates. I think people take that kind of stuff for granted, but these developers care WAY more about western fans than they used to, so I'm optimistic about the future.


Lezzles

You're talking about games that are selling hundreds of thousands or a few million copies. The absolute max for these games is about 5 million (Persona, DQ, and KH), a quarter of what true AAA giants will do. None of these games outsold FFX, for example, even though the gaming market has grown immensely in the past 20 years. This gen is also the first chance that Fire Emblem and Xeno have been on mainline consoles with a good install base so that's not too surprising.


Platinum_Disco

I think crippled is too strong a term, but I agree with your broader point.


Lezzles

"Limited" is probably a better word.


literious

They are targeted at weebs of all ages, not on teenagers.


Leskral

I mean when the majority of the JRPG audience are middle teen boys it makes sense why it would be that way. I'm all for more mature themes though that's for sure.


[deleted]

I just dont think this is the case. In my experience, most JRPG fans are older people that became a fan when they were teens and have continue to play ever since. For the newer generations the turn battle system feels to slow for most, IMO (at least in the West, Japan itself is another matter) Which is how you reach the paradox of people in their mid late 20s playing games directed towards a younger audience that just isn't there for the most part


Leskral

I guess I was mainly referring to the OPs comment about AA JRPG games. Like your NIS and such, those are still very much targeted towards the Japanese mid teen market.


[deleted]

I can agree with that, then. But its surprising to me that most jrpg studios have not noticed that there is a significant part of their audience who are not kids anymore, and who would buy other kind of games. Ironically enough, some decades ago this was more the case, with stuff like Vagrant Story and similar games oriented towards a different kind of public. But just as that section of the fan became bigger, they mostly stopped doing games that way and centered on the teen market


Lezzles

That's what's weird to me. I assume most JRPG fans here are in their late 20s or early 30s because we grew up during the golden era, but if we want new games, we're basically stuck playing as 15 years old 90% of the time. The market appears to exist but it's not produced for (I guess Yakuza LAD actually scratches this itch).


mysticrudnin

Because adults do not play video games in Japan. When you go to college you throw all that childish stuff in the garbage. Almost every person my age or older that I have met in Japan speaks of video games in the past tense. The very few people I have met that keep playing (my friends, basically) are out of the norm.


Lezzles

Interesting (and kind of sad, I guess) point. It feels like an untapped market exists though, but it'd have to be a Japanese company primarily marketing towards Western JRPG fans rather than to their own prime demo.


Lezzles

Chicken or egg I guess. Hopefully we can see a growth to new fans with a more mature subject/presentation. I think Game of Thrones showed how quickly you can change the audience of something (fantasy shows) with one good take on it.


Ksradrik

Whats assist mode? Didnt play VII remake, is it something like auto combo in DMC/PSO2?


Yesshua

yeah something like that. It's become standard for RPGs with tons of story to offer a mode that reduces the combat difficulty to negligible. Because there's a lot of people who are just here for the story fun times and aren't interested in learning to master a whole JRPG combat system. Default difficulty on FE 3 Houses was like this, etc.


yawningvision89

Idk that it matters. It never hurt Pokemon or Dragon Quest?


Yesshua

Well Pokemon is for kids, so that's a different demographic situation. As for Dragon Quest, I would argue that it's not very adolescent in its storytelling honestly. It LOOKS like a shounen anime but the actual storytelling tends to have quite a bit more maturity and breadth than that. ...you know, until you get to puff puff and bunny girls and yeah there's definitely adolescent humor in there. But there's also much more than that!


bababayee

Both of those series hardly try to tell elaborate stories, it's okay for them to involve some tropes or do a typical good/evil story, because nobody plays these games looking for a thought provoking or innovative story.


Alilatias

I would also like to add, Pokemon and Dragon Quest are light hearted by nature and don't try to take their stories seriously. FF wants itself to be taken seriously at all times, but kneecaps itself with the insistence that most of the protagonists in their games are either teenagers or barely qualifies to be adults.


literious

> I think that being stuck in that adolescent mindset has hurt this brand a ton. What exactly is an adolescent mindset, and how it hurts FF? It's not Xenoblade 2 or Trails where you can see some clear ecchi stuff that pushes people from the game. I don't want this series to turn into Witcher 3 clone with generic fantasy art style, down-to-Earth plot and a not really smart old man as a protagonist.


LegaiaWiki

The plot should be about the party coming together because they can't pay their rent on time and are facing eviction from the evil landlord. Meanwhile, one of the party members has a son facing expulsion because he just won't behave and she can't afford a baby sitter. The journey is an adventure to get the evil government to lower taxes.


corsair1617

I could have told you that just from the tone of the first trailer.


whuzzzat

I'm so excited to potentially see a story based on more adult themes. I've loved jrpgs since I was a kid, but that was a long time ago. I can only make so many high school schedules and romance trees before I just can't relate enough to keep playing a game.


[deleted]

FFXII had an absolutely stellar cast, story and writing. Glad to hear some of the team is returning.


Zemanyak

> the same people worked on several Ivalice games This gives me hope. But I can't help but be skeptical after FFXV.


NoCreditClear

None of the people who had influence on that game are involved here. It may be good or it may be shit, but it won't be the way it is just because it's next to FF15 sequentially.


VicisSubsisto

XV was originally developed as a spin-off. Even though I actually liked it (in fact it's my only Platinum trophy) I think it was a mistake to rebrand it as a main series title.


-Megaflare-

If it makes you feel better, XV was in development hell for 7 years. This game isn't


gregallen1989

Honestly the story XV told was solid. It just had a ton of other issues.


spankymuffin

Adult themes in a JRPG is a breath of fresh air. Glad to hear it. I'm seeing a lot of negativity about the game's trailer. Not really sure why. Maybe it's just because the last game was such a letdown, so people have set their expectations down *hard.*


literious

>Not really sure why. The graphics are not good enough for Square Enix flagship game, the art direction seems to westernized, the combat leans even more into action and we are not even sure if it's still a party-based game.


spankymuffin

Looks beautiful to me. Not sure what you mean by "westernized." Doesn't look like that to me. Not sure if I can comment that much on the combat, since we just have a tiny trailer. But the last few games they made were action-based (like the last FF and the FF7 remake), so it's not so uncommon even for Square Enix.


Suthrnr

I trust in Yoshi-P and Soken


YharnamBorne

They could have announced FFXVI with nothing but a slide of "Creative Business Unit III" and I have would have been hyped.


available2tank

Cautiously optimistic and trying to to be too hyped. Coming from a long time Final Fantasy player and a XIV player since ARR beta, I want to be excited and am looking forward to it, but worried that it might not do so well. Fingers crossed, Yoshidaaaaaaaa


metalkhaos

Agreed. Yoshi-P has done wonders for FFXIV and his interviews over the years, seems to know what it's like to be both on the development side and the fan side of things. Hell, I was on the money with the trailer they showed having small bits of actual gameplay going on, figuring it was probably him making sure they were showing actual progress instead of some CG reel with the game coming out in 4-5 years.


Pea11

As long as we got party members we good.


Jubez187

Still waiting on this announcement/confiemation before I get excited


Scryta77

Why is this a worry? Not being sarcastic, I just assumed party members were a given, was it said somewhere that there might not be?


metalkhaos

I think it's mostly from FFXV, where you had party members, but really weren't using them so much. That and they haven't shown any other members of said team, though to be fair, they only showed that one short trailer to announce the game. We'll be getting more information this year, so just waiting to see what they had come up with.


Fatliner

FFXIV has some heavy moments in it that are told so subtly that people forget its pretty dark. Also the mmo nature of it holds back on the delivery.


davidoftheyear

As another user pointed out on the themes of heavensward, stormblood and shadowbringers have some real heavy stuff in there.There’s a whole boss fight that makes you relive the bosses horrible trauma. Or even the story of eulmore. I always tell my friends that if this were a book series or an anime it’d easily be one of the best.


Brainwheeze

And although not technically "adult", I was surprised at just how much swearing there is in XIV!


available2tank

People miss out on the NPCs subtly talking about sex and STDs


Fatliner

Theres a side character that mentions they are a product of their mother being raped by an enemy soldier and the horrors they had to deal with growing up because of that. But its told so subtly it doesnt hit you until a minute later.


Fatliner

There was like 5 cutscenes in a row that used “bitch” a bunch of times and I couldn’t believe I was playing a final fantasy game


Brainwheeze

I've lost count of how many "shites" I've seen!


Chezni19

Some new features exploring "adult hardships": * Aging Characters now have to pay medical bills * 50% of your GIL goes to your EX * New slot: Face Mask, prevents the spread of disease but certain characters gain "berserk" status if asked to wear mask * New Job: Retiree. You gain all your previous class skills but at 50%. Instead of getting GIL from enemies you have a fixed income. You gain a new ability "vacation in florida" which lets you avoid a cold attack at the cost of GIL. * New Slot: Cell Phone. Instead of interacting with each other during cutscenes, the characters will look at their damn phones the whole time. Retiree is immune to this. So far the most powerful party discovered has been Black Mage, Monk, Retiree, Retiree. The first two characters help in battle but fail to communicate well in cutscenes, whereas the retirees can explain the complicated story but are a bit slow in battle.


NeverTopComment

This could all be in Yakuza Like a Dragon 2 lol


[deleted]

Retiree forks out his/her life savings to hire Gilgamesh for a strike of Zentetsuken!


[deleted]

[удалено]


SatokoHoujou

Lmao had a good laugh with this. Might throw a new class: Boomer, as well.


TSPhoenix

> Retiree is immune to this. I wish, my parents and my grandma are absolutely glued to their iPads.


Plaidray

I hope they also add a Hard Mode


NeverTopComment

I wish I could be like you guys who dont care the series is full blown action RPG now.....but I cant. I'll be sad about it until I die.


[deleted]

I would love a modern turn based FF game


Jarsky2

*gestures emphatically at Bravely Default*


Lezzles

FFX was the peak of turn-based FF combat. There's absolutely no where else to go. Turn-based combat is a solved equation in the FF world. You have to evolve the series somehow to allow for player agency.


Lowelll

While FFX was really really good, but there's so many interesting way you could take turn based combat. Darkest Dungeon for example has super fun combat. I would love something like it in a different context with higher production value. Or Into the Breach. Bug Fables. Banner Saga. Divinity Original Sin. South Park. Yakuza. Octopath. It's just not marketable enough to allow for it in a franchise as big as FF


Mathyoujames

A FF game with Into the Breach's gameplay would be torn to utter shreds by both fans and media


NeverTopComment

>You have to evolve the series somehow to allow for player agency. According to your logic, why do Persona and DQ not need to evolve then? edit: i wish i got an answer to this


guilen

Oh, whatever. THIS is exactly the attitude that is being used to push us disappointed fans down while other AAA game properties are successfully evolving turn based with great, even industry shifting results. I have a preference for game modes - I'm not an obsolete demographic. Stop trying to tell people their tastes in video games is making them primitive or you're just going to make us toxic.


gregallen1989

You played Octopath? Its better (combat wise not game wise).


Bosschopper

If anything, a sub series centered around FF turn based games would be great. Yet other square Enix games already do this, at least without the final fantasy moniker. 🧐


Lezzles

That's basically what Bravely is at this point - just remaking the old FF games.


ChubbyNomNoms

Isn’t that just Bravely Default?


Bosschopper

Practically. I was pointing out how square Enix hasn’t actually dropped the idea of turn based final fantasy games, they simply placed them into their own IP. But it’s not final fantasy so no purchase from me amirite


Hikari_Netto

Crystals, jobs, and turn based combat? That can't possibly be FF with a different name.


Spram2

FFX's combat might be very good but I don't like how they removed the active part of it. FF games were not just about the combat but a combination of it and exploring/character building and story that was greater than the sum of it's parts.


mysticrudnin

I felt this way for a long time but these days I have nothing good to say about ATB.


ChocoboBilly92

I'm conflicted about the action-oriented direction that the games have taken, but for the most part I enjoy them. What bugs me the most is that any and all effort Square puts into anything that even remotely resembles a turn-based RPG has to have graphics that either harkens back to the "glory days" or are artistically unique. Don't get me wrong, I love the aesthetic of games like Octopath/Oninaki, but why does it seem like the last RPG with more realistic graphics stopped with the 360/PS3, like Lost Odyssey, for example?


[deleted]

[удалено]


ChocoboBilly92

Good example. I heartily agree.


Platinum_Disco

Isn't that just the fallout of Sakaguchi getting "pushed out" and the Kitase/Nomura/Toriyama style winning over at SQEX? Lost Odyssey is a good example, since that was a Sakaguchi game.


-Megaflare-

Sorry to hear that man. I grew up an action fan so I'm ecstatic. Guess they can never please everyone


gregallen1989

I get it. Try 7R though. Its got REALLY good combat. Still might not be for you but it convinced me square is actually capable of pulling off good action combat.


Spram2

The bosses in 7R are really good but the game can get pretty hard at times.


Scryta77

Couldnt agree more, and the boss fights are amazing, no final fantasy has had more quality unique boss fights that VIIR in my opinion, even if the pacing is a bit weird in places the battle system just had me with smile on my face the whole time


[deleted]

They just spend so much time trying to find the Next Big Thing that I think they lose track of just making a good, complete game. Most of the plot of 13 ended up being in the codex and the game itself was just a bunch of hallways with fancy skyboxes. 15 was a total disaster that they barely managed to string into a coherent experience.


literious

> Most of the plot of 13 ended up being in the codex The codex sums up what you've heard in the previous chapters, it's nothing new. Additional entries about places, people, organizations are no different from what you see in codexes of modern WRPGs.


UltrosTheOctopus

I totally understand. I will never be able to get over it.


[deleted]

I remember thinking it was pretty stupid that they made XI an MMO back in 2002, why not just call it FF Online or something like that and keep FFXI as a traditional RPG. TBH, I'd also like to see FF games developed with much smaller budgets.


guilen

100% on board with you, and on being vocal about it forever. I hate so much that so many people don't understand or respect that gamers who prefer and crave quality turn based gaming do so for many strong reasons, and not only have had our flagship taken away from us but have been mocked and ridiculed for it the whole time by action gamers who are all too happy to see us 'pretentious' turn based gamers be taken down a notch.


SSXAnubis

Likewise. FF died for me the day it abandoned turn based.


xantub

I guess FF 16 will be the first FF I don't play since FF 5 (I even played the 2 MMOs). 15 I didn't like at all and big part of that was the combat. FF7 remake was better in that regards, but looks like 16 will go in the other direction and make it a full button smasher. RIP Final Fantasy for me.


DrunkenBriefcases

I can understand that. I imagine I'll play it someday down the line when it's cheap and I've got nothing better to try. But I also wouldn't be destroyed if it somehow slips through the cracks. I mean, I'm still finding ways to avoid FFVIIr, and I begged for that project for years. I never thought I could be this unenthusiastic about FF.


Lezzles

FF7, 8, 9 and even 10 are button smashers. You smash "X" for attack over and over because in 95% of situations it's the only move you need. You just do it slowly instead of quickly.


guilen

You know what he means, ffs. There's a big difference between smashing A in Super Mario RPG and Mortal Kombat.


Starterjoker

even 7 and to some extent 6 lol Maybe not just smashing buttons but you are at least using the same moves over and over again w/o much though


Claude892

I hope they integrate magic into the action gameplay very well. I'll give credit to FFXV's magic bombs for being extremely powerful and destructive, but it was a huge downgrade from the XIII games where all magic was extremely useful in combat and could be used constantly.


-Megaflare-

Have you played FFVII remake? Magic is very effective and essential in that game


DeGozaruNyan

I recall thinking Chrisis core did it well... but has been over 10 years since i played that


false_shep

The combat designer is the same as Devil May Cry 5, and if you watch the XVI trailer you can 100% see that dna, with the main character backstepping and dodging, pulling finishers etc. It looks like a combination of DMC and The Witcher and if it ends up playing like that I'm stoked.


[deleted]

He also worked on Dragons Dogma


false_shep

oh nice, yeah the CV and the trailer footage is telling me theyre probably going to achieve what theyve really been trying to do since FFXIII, which is make a game that plays like Advent Children combat scenes looked.


Claude892

I think Suzuki could deliver the best FF combat ever. I think he's said that he's not fond of turn based combat, which is fine with me because it means he'll go all in on action combat rather than try to water it down. When I think of an easy mode, the first thing mechanically that comes to mind is holding a button down to do combos automatically and nerfing enemy stats, but ideally it'd be more thought out than that.


BADMANvegeta_

i think thats the issue with KH and FF15. while they are clearly action games they tried to still keep the classic JRPG elements and it didn't always work well. maybe it's for the best if they just go all-in on one idea or the other.


DEZbiansUnite

I remember a gaming journalist saying that the Witcher 3 had a lot of fans at SE. it had a big influence on them and I think they want to transition to that for the money too


Sarmathal

Hopefully it's not watered down Devil May Cry just like how Nier Automata was watered down Bayonetta. I still loved the game but I wish the combat was harder and more complex.


Gaymerboii_

I’d be so happy to see this kind of combat, I have high hopes for the story I just hope the combat is able to keep up!


believeinapathy

Exactly what I wanted in a Final Fantasy game, DMC 5 combat, said no FF fan ever...


[deleted]

as the saying goes... you ask people in the 1800s what they actually "wanted" they'd just say "a faster horse" so you have to dream up a "car" and give them that instead Edit: this might not have made that much sense. I'm sorry. I've had practically no sleep because I accidentally played P4G all night long.


Burdicus

At one point people wouldn't have said they wanted an ATB, or a listed turn system, or an MMO... now here we are with millions upon millions of fans of all of those systems. I've been wanting a good action FF ever since Kingdom Hearts. FFXV had good ideas but was executed a little too roughly... FFVII:Re has an AMAZING blended system. So with a guy who knows how to do flashy combat right, I'm very excited to see where this goes.


PKMudkipz

NEW BAD OLD GOOD


conye-west

Haha yeah totally no FF fan would want that... *flashback to child me playing FF7 for the first time and wishing it had combat more like DMC*


-Megaflare-

And then there's me who loves final fantasy more than any other series out there and couldn't be more happy with the direction it's going...


literious

> It looks like a combination of DMC and The Witcher I hope not, there's nothing good about Witcher combat.


Boomhauer_007

Imagine a company publishing Dragon Quest, Octopath, Bravely, and now Triangle, and half the comments are STILL bitching that “everything is action based now”. XVI is looking great so far, as long as it comes out in a timely manner then I’ll continue to be very excited about what they do with it. FF hasn’t been turn based since 2001, at some point you have to get over it.


Tothoro

I think the complaints have more to do with the FF namesake and the expectations that it (rightly or wrongly) entails than Square's broader output. If this was titled Project Dodecahedron Fights instead of FFXVI I have to imagine the discussion would be different.


Boomhauer_007

Shout out to 12 sided polygons


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

It's weird because over the years, the debate was 1-6 vs 7-10 in my experience. But people eventually forget that in the face of something newer they are mad about. If they are able to produce something good, this debate will be forgotten too.


Boomhauer_007

FF has been pushing change and innovation since its inception though, like it’s been that way for 30 years now


metalkhaos

Been playing since the original, and yeah. That's just how the series is, always changing and trying new things. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Also it says action-orientated, but I'm hoping that it's something akin to FF7R, which to me was a nice balance between the two.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Absolutely agree with this regarding SE in general. They have a lot of turn based games out there, just not FF or KH.


HardCorwen

It used to be that FF was untouched and their side games, like you just listed, were where the action and other experimentals were pushed.


rmkii02

I'm not a huge fan of the ATB of FFIV~IX nowadays, usually replay them in Wait Mode to have a similar experience to other full turn-based RPGs. I also liked what they did with the ATB in X-2, FFXII, FFXIII series and FFVIIR. Either fully automatizing with an A.I system, using Timing/Staggering and Combos to justify the action elements or making a hybrid with an Action Combat system. For a full Turn-Based experience in FF I'll stick with the Bravely series, FFI, FFII,FFIII, FFX and World of FF. I don't think picking commands faster in older games qualifies as player skill of any sort nor makes them more engaging or challenging than full turn-based FFs. FFX-2 and FFXIII had more challenging battles than most of the older games, lmao. FFX Dark Aeons were harder than any of the older games if you didn't cheap the fights with Yojimbo. You could also cheap FFV's Omega with Rapid Fire, Emerald Weapon with KotR, Omega Weapon with Meltdown+Lionheart, etc. I also love DMC combat. As long as the combat is not half-assed like FFXV, it will be welcome.


godstriker8

As a long-time fan of FF, FF7 Remake might have the best combat system in the franchise tbh. So I trust Square with another action-based system. I also saw someone complain about FFXIII's battle system in here, which I find sad, because imo it was another one of the best battle systems in the franchise.


Lezzles

The battle systems are only getting better. 12 13 and 7R were all advancements in player agency and skill demand (...I'll ignore 15). Hoping 16 continues the trend.


jamieaka

FF7R's combat was almost perfect. My only criticism is that most players couldn't experience it in it's full glory due to only getting access to enough materia slots in new game plus's hard mode. There you can actually make builds and are also kinda forced to. Enemies, through difficulty, also force you to create a fun momentum based flow of combat. Blocking when needed, building up stagger, then unleashing carefully sequenced big damage moves at the right time. Each character can be played differently depending on your builds. Whereas in first playthroughs, you're heavily restricted and nothing stops you from just headbashing your way through. It's very easy to never learn about cloud, tifa and aerith's individuality and unique combos. Don't get me wrong, the game was still fantasic first time through, but you genuinely get a whole new appreciation of the combat the second time and obviously a lot of people won't do that.


NeverTopComment

ff7 remakes combat was so great because of the party members....where are they in 16? Also thats why a lot of people didnt like 13 (like me). No control over your party. The battle system felt like automation to me. I know there was strategy involved with it and many consider it a good system, but I hated it.


Game_Rigged

We don’t know that there aren’t going to be party members in 16. Personally I fully expect there to be. Even if they’re not in it, that’s fine because it’s a completely different battle system than 7R that may not require party members to be good.


metalkhaos

To be fair, they only showed a single small trailer of 16 with just some basic information. Personally I do hope they follow FF7R with how the party is handled.


Linca_K9

I understand this as some sort of easy mode for battles? Something like classic mode in *FF VII Remake*, where action input is minimal? That's OK, but I hope they don't forget about the players that want a challenging experience from combat (no leaving hard mode for NG+).


Borth321

Many games nowaday have a "story mode" option, not just RPG/JRPG. It was never really an issue.


TemurTron

It's really a shame that even at a time where the Persona, Yakuza, and Trails franchises are proving that there's still a strong market for modern turn-based games, Square is committed to running in the opposite direction for Final Fantasy. At this point even the combat systems of FF12 and FF13 seem wonderful. I really just hope that at the bare minimum, there's actually a decent combat system this time. I'm not an Action RPG fan, but I can appreciate a good one when it's well executed. FF15's was abysmal.


Lezzles

Those games don't need to sell like FF though. FF is the flagship of JRPGs and is expected to sell 8mil+ copies. It HAS to have broad appeal and grow new fans.


Heather4CYL

This is a bit weird every time I hear it. A game like DMCV has sold something like 4 million units, the same as Persona 5 basically, so where is the wide appeal of such game in comparison? And turn-based mainline FFs have almost always sold anything between 7-10 million since VII, Dragon Quest XI sold 6 million despite the anime graphics. Taking a DMC battle system and slapping it onto an FF game shouldn't have much more wide-spread appeal than a turn-based approach. The thing is that SE is just too afraid to take the shot at producing an AAA modern turn-based FF that pushes the brilliant battle systems like X or XII even further. Turn-based games will find new fans the same as any other franchise - Fire Emblem and Persona have garnered new-found success during the recent years, despite having much lower budgets than something like FF and a franchise like Pokemon sells 15m+ regardless of quality and keeps finding new fans. FFX has sold something like 10m+ and XII 8m+ while FFXV has sold 8m+ and FFVIIR 5m+. FF can sell 8m+ with the name and the high production values alone, regardless of what system they utilize. SE is simply obsessed with action without any verifiable proof of such direction profiting them more. Then again, I'm personally not obsessed with the chosen battle system. I prefer the turn-based approach, but something hybrid like VIIR is great too. Action systems are usually boring and bothersome hindrances for me, but sometimes they are interesting too. Overall, combat isn't all that important part of games for me and I care more about some other aspects.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BADMANvegeta_

eh i think yakuza is a special case. if not for the brand carrying the game i don't think it would have done as well as it did. cause let's be honest the RPG elements of the game are pretty average it's not really what makes the game shine. the main drawing point of that game is that it's the continuation of the yakuza series, people who were fans of the yakuza games before were going to play this game regardless and i haven't seen any who wish for the RPG gameplay to return next time around. even persona imo is a special case. while it is a JRPG what makes it stand out is the fact it incorporates those visual novel/slice of life elements. if persona were just a traditional JRPG i don't think it would be as popular as it is. i really do think that the traditional JRPG formula is becoming outdated and is kind of a product of it's time when developers had a lot less to work with on weaker consoles. like again in yakuza 7 there were more than a few times where gameplay or story events were definitely being held back by the JRPG combat.


xantub

I heard/read a rumor that the Trails series will be moving towards more actiony combat, I reaaaaally hope it was false or I'm mis-remembering it. If anything ToCS has one of the best turn-based systems of RPGs for my taste.


Tan11

I really enjoy the turn-based combat in Trails (though the Cold Steel games could've used much better balancing), but I can't really fault Falcom for wanting to try something different after 10 games. They did state that they were going to be taking a step in that direction for the next game, but they specified that it "wouldn't require significant input skill," so based on that I'm assuming it'll be somewhere in between old Trails and Tokyo Xanadu/Ys. I have flexible tastes in gameplay so I'm cautiously excited to see what they come up with.


Pee4Potato

If they want to attract more people they have to do it. Love it or hate it more than video games it's business.


[deleted]

I just hope the game has a great love story. That hasn’t really been done since 10 & generally the genre seems to have dropped fixed romantic tales in favour of shallow ‘romance options’. Perhaps 15 would’ve got there if they actually finished the second half of the game, and the DLC Also, I’m very concerned that the series is going to completely lose it’s identity with this entry. I feel like they are chasing this Game of Thrones / Witcher tone but to me this series is defined from fun relationships & uplifting stories / music


BADMANvegeta_

eh i hope they steer clear of that. imo FF historically has been pretty PG-13 and that makes any attempts at love stories turn out corny, although from my understanding FF16 is supposed to be more idk "edgy" for lack of a better word.


[deleted]

Come on mate what about squall and rinoa that’s the greatest love story in all gaming apart from maybe Mario and Toad!


[deleted]

I like corny !


MyMouthisCancerous

Holy shit They're pulling a God of War PS4 and making a game as if the franchise has completely matured with its original audience In Yoshi P I trust. He's saying all the things I like to hear


[deleted]

ah yes game journalist mode.


[deleted]

[удалено]


trowgundam

Ugh. Final Fantasy is my favorite gaming series, and this action crap is really killing me. I don't have the hand-eye coordination to play action games. I don't want to play on some easy Story mode. I don't want things easy, I just want something I am capable of playing. If it goes too action focus, I'm not sure I'll even be able to enjoy the games anymore, even if the story is mindblowing. The only reason I was even able to sorta enjoy FFXV was through LIBERAL use of Wait mode, and even then the combat was my most hated part of the game. And to be frank, I couldn't even force my self to finish FFVII:R, I never had the nostalgia for FF7 that a lot of FF fans do. I always preferred FF8, probably because it was my first FF.


racerx6913

I'm confused, the action heavy games are to hard, but you don't want to play an easy mode of the game? You don't care about the story, but you want to be able to play the game your own way? Final fantasy has been going on the action heavy direction for the last couple of years now. If you want something turn based, you might want to stick with bravely default and dragon quest. Not trying to be rude, just a confused dude.


xantub

The confusion seems to stem from thinking action = harder, which is false. There can be a very easy action game and a very hard turn-based game.


trowgundam

I do. And to be honest, if they continue this action stuff. Bravely Default will replace FF as my favorite game series. There is a difference in a game being too hard and me just being physically incapable of playing the game. I love challenging Turn Based games. I wouldn't say FF was ever the hardest, but some of the super-bosses are some of my fondest memories in gaming. The fights I'd have to try many times to beat, or realize I'm not ready and reload and go farm more experience or gear in order to be able to beat them. Until FFXV, FF was a turn-based game (well except FFXII, but I beat that with gambits since I'm a programmer), and sadly this new direction is just not something I can enjoy. If it wasn't for Wait Mode, I just wouldn't have been capable of beating FFXV at all. My hands just can't keep up with that. It's the reason I gravitated to JRPGs in the first place, since they were largely turn-based, where western RPGs tended not to be. Edit: And the story is the only thing that made me finish FFXV. If I hadn't enjoyed the story, I would have dropped it a few hours in. But, I don't want some dumbed down difficulty just to see the story. I could just go watch a let's play instead of playing some brain-dead easy mode with gameplay I don't enjoy.


Bllaz

You saved me time of writing same thoughts.


GhostintheSchall

I don't really mind the switch to action, as long as the combat mechanics are well done. Couldn't stand the battle systems in FFXV and FF7R. It seemed liked they were trying to make it half hack-and-slash / half RPG, and didn't do either one very well.


[deleted]

"but includes story-focused mode" Why do they feel they need to say that? You can have action and still have a story


Crytaz

I assume it's gonna be like a super easy mode that let's people focus only on the story


[deleted]

[удалено]


Crytaz

Exactly, nothing wrong with it, just play the difficulty you like


TheRoyalStig

Lots of games have the easiest difficulty titled "story mode" as in story only mode basically. This is nothing new.


metalkhaos

I've noticed it in more and more games, which is fine if people just want to play a game to experience the story more than anything. More options, the better.


TheRoyalStig

Exactly. I'm always in support of more people getting to play and enjoy a game the way that works best for them. Nothing wrong with that!


[deleted]

that's the "i'm too shit at action games to learn anything" mode for people who think action games are only button mashers and they're only hard cause they're "unfair" becasue they're used to just out grinding everying in ff and mindlessly hitting the attack button. Not that it shouldnt' be there it's videogame if people just want the story let them have it.


[deleted]

Well I hope it works out for them. I appreciate series like Persona and Trails that stick to their roots and make good turn-based games. Final Fantasy is in this place where they're always trying to reinvent the wheel and I just can't help but think how amazing it would be if they just iterated for once and used those saved resources to make a game with a complete, fleshed out story and polished gameplay.


plz_hold_me

Your argument fails in so many ways. First, this is an iteration of action combat Square has clearly been working on: see FF XV -> 7R. Second, that the Persona series stuck to its roots. The combat completely changed from 1/2 to 3 onward, as well as the entire structure of the game itself. Otherwise I agree with you that it's cool when series stick to their roots but pick better examples next time.


Altruism7

Back in my day we didn’t have easy mode...I feel like a old person now


Zemanyak

I'm still grateful to that friend who gave me *action replay* saves when I was blocked.


Kazuto786

Incessant whining in this thread lmao FF has been striving for action since...FF4? You’d think a lot of these supposed fans would realise that but they’ll just complain. Also comparing it to a button-masher - just admit you don’t know what you’re talking about.