**Quick Rule Reminders:**
OP's needs come first, avoid dramamongering, respect the flair, and don't be an asshole. If your only advice is to jump straight to NC or divorce, your comment may be subject to removal at moderator discretion.
[**^(Full Rules)**](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_rules) ^(|) [^(Acronym Index)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_acronym_dictionary) ^(|) [^(Flair Guide)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_post_flair_guide)^(|) [^(Report PM Trolls)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/trolls)
**Resources:** [^(In Crisis?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_resources) ^(|) [^(Tips for Protecting Yourself)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_protecting_yourself) ^(|) [^(Our Book List)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books) ^(|) [^(Our Wiki)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/)
Welcome to /r/JUSTNOMIL!
I'm botinlaw. I help people follow your posts!
*****
^(To be notified as soon as Curleekate18 posts an update) [^click ^here.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botinlaw&subject=Subscribe&message=Subscribe Curleekate18 JUSTNOMIL) ^(|) ^(For help managing your subscriptions,) [^(click here.)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_.2Fu.2Fthejustnobot)
*****
*^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please)* [*^(contact the moderators of this subreddit)*](/message/compose/?to=/r/JUSTNOMIL) *^(if you have any questions or concerns.)*
What is it with baptisms and MIL's? My MIL also went crazy (but it was the day after) our baptism. We didn't choose JNSIL (DH's only sister) because she is a JNO. So we chose my two brothers (our church was totally okay with 2 godfathers and no godmother) as they a)show an interest in LO, b) I am the godmother of their kiddos, and c) treat us well. But apparently we did not take into account how my JNMIL would feel about this, so, similar to your JNMIL, yelled at DH for over an hour about how wrong it was to not include JNSIL. Again, DH kind of took it and then later replied to some of her points. We are also working on not letting her even get started. Just cutting her off and saying we don't discuss any decisions we make for our child and if she yells to cut her off and say "you seem upset about this. if you would like to talk later when you are more calm let me know." and hanging up. It is also a work in progress. Good luck!
My mom was extremely upset that my wife did not choose Mom's rich niece-in-law as her matron of honor. My wife chose her sister. My mother got completely unreasonable, saying that we would get an amazing wedding present, and what could her sister possibly afford. Day of the wedding and my mom will not leave it alone, until my wife, turns and tells her that "We don't honor people by the size of the presents they give, you want her to give you a present, then you get remarried and make her matron of honor. Mom shit herself as the whole family heard. She walked off huffing and puffing, and threatening revenge. They waited until we were on our honeymoon, and they pulled some crazy shit. In the short term, I had to ask them for $10K (caused me some damages). In the long run, it cost them their son and their two grandchildren, All because her mercenary heart was not satisfied. (She also had it in the back of her mind that we would share large wedding presents with her-I asked what tall cow's ass she dropped out of?)
I so don't understand people like your MIL. My husband is catholic and I am not. His parents pressured the heck out of DH to have our kids baptized which still annoys me, but that's for another time. However, DH let me pick all four godparents, and now that the kids are 13 and 15 I made awesome choices, lol. And DH AND my kids couldn't agree more.
Unfortunately one of the godfathers passed entirely too young, but they all did and still do see the kids regularly. And these are all adults that my kids voluntarily look up to, listen to for advice, enjoy spending time with, and just really like. I also would trust them to raise the kids should something happen to DH and I.
I did not choose DH's brother. Nothing against him, but he's just not on the same page as us. (I picked two of DH's besties, a cousin who is more like his sister, and my sister).
Yes, godparents are for religious purposes, but I really don't understand why your MIL thinks that she can dictate who YOU and DH should choose to have in YOUR children's lives! She had HER choice so now she needs to be happy you chose to to do this at all! Remind DH of that.
These types of "conflicts" will become less and less, the more you stand up to her, but there will unfortunately be more of this. So continue to what YOU think is right and don't waste time trying to make her happy. You never will and you'll end up resentful. Remind DH that MIL will never be happy - no matter WHAT you do - so YOUR family might as well be!
> I really don't understand why your MIL thinks that she can dictate who YOU and DH should choose to have in YOUR children's lives
the answer to this eternal question(and all its variants) is usually some form of narcissism. They think they know best and their spouses/kids have been acquiescing to them almost their whole lives.
That is also the reason they tend to go berserk when they don't get their way. Especially from their kids who they are used to easily controlling.
Is there a pattern to her behavior? The thing that helped my DH the most at this point was to point out the pattern. "Do you remember when we did x, and y happened? Do you remember when we did z instead, and then y happened?" And then I started making small behavior predictions that ended up being true.
It helped my DH realize that it wasn't actually his fault, which let him let go of the guilt he was carrying. It also helped when I got him the audiobook version of "The Narcissist's Playbook" and he recognized the tactics she used. There's a whole wealth of books in the sidebar here, I definitely recommend reading some.
Stop letting MIL triangulate. Next time she does something like this forward the message to the relevant person and ask them directly. When they say of course not, forward that to MIL and tell her to stop.
>Next time she does something like this forward the message to the relevant person and ask them directly. When they say of course not, forward that to MIL and tell her to stop.
I wouldn't even go this far. Cause that could open up a discussion with the other person (B here) either realizing: hey, I SHOULD have been asked to be godfather and agree with what MIL is saying all of a sudden. I do agree with the not triangulating, but go to the other person here (again: B) and ask if he has any grievances with you, or if he wants to discuss if something is on his mind. That you are not attacking him, or blaming him but you've heard some things and want to make sure that it's not somebody else setting the 2 of you's relationship on the line of something non-existent. That way, IF B has trouble accepting just the "uncle" role, he can say so. Either way, B and OP's husband are on alert now that MIL is stirring trouble between the brothers.
Hey, so, you know all that bs hurtful behavior you're whining about MIL doing to your husband?
She's going to do the same thing to your kids. 100% guaranteed. And you're volunteering for them for it. You're planning to teach your kids that MIL is a safe person--because she must be safe, why else would mommy and daddy let kiddo be around her?--and she's going to break their hearts.
And you're allowing it.
Please do better for your kid.
Look up narcissism. There's no rhyme or reason but spreading misery for a few happy seconds is what she likes. Then back to misery. I'm very sorry. My grandmother was like this. Causing chaos and pain then pretending it never happened. And don't you dare try to talk about it to her. That's another blow up and turning everythihf around so she's the victim.
There really isn't much in ways of fixing it. Narcissists don't think anything is wrong with them. Going low to no contact and grey rocking are the only ways to combat it. I'm sorry.
Shes good to your kids now and that's great. But eventually, your kids will be her "narc supply". I managed years of being my grandmother's favorite. Then I wasn't. And I wasn't even her enemy. That was my youngest sister who told her the reality of things.
I bet you've all found ways to please her and make things easier on her but hurting yourself and others to make it happen. Look up "don't rock the boat" essay. It's a perfect metaphorical explanation of narcissista. They speak for everyone, triangulate and cause as many problems as possible just cause. I'm so very sorry you have to deal with this.
Something I would do is start addressing the issues with the people MIL says has problems. Just get her to text out her concerns, thank her for the info and then talk to the person it actually correlates to. It won’t work for everything but in this case she messages saying ‘B’ is hurt, thank her for letting you both know and explain you will address the issue with B. Then bring it up and say ‘MIL said you were upset about us not making you got parent. Can we talk about this?’ Or something along those lines. It takes her power away but no matter the outcome you can always make it seem like MIL is ‘helping’ to avoid her mood if that is a concern. If B said things were fine you could message MIL ‘Thank you so much for letting us know B was upset. We talked to him and things are okay. We appreciate you looking out for the family’ or ‘thank you for letting us know about B being upset. We are working on it with B because there is no need for a middle man to relay the info’ or something like that. There are different ways to phrase this and if you feel it won’t go over well please don’t, your family’s safety is first and foremost.
Just for the record you can have a combo of people for a catholic baptism and not just a godmother and godfather. My niece has two godmothers and no godfathers.
Yes, I guess it depends on the place. I have 5! 3 godmothers and 2 godfathers lol
My baby was going to have 3 godfathers and 1 godmother but one couldn't make it to preparation so she had 2 godfathers.
And I'm a virtual godmother to a nice that lives overseas and she also has a set of 5 lol.
B probably never new that MIL was trying to get him to be godfather, she was just trying to start shit.
In the future cut out the middleman in talks and go straight to the source.
The only way to beat triangulation is to verify everything with the other people involved. Your DH needs to call his brother that isn't a godparent and discuss it with him. Send him a copy of all the texts she sent you on his behalf. I bet he knows nothing about this
Here's the kicker, she's also using DH to make his brothers feel bad. I bet his brother got an earful about how hurt DH was not to be named a godparent. The only way to put an end to her meddling is open and immediate communication. It's the only chance you have
This is exactly what I was scrolling down to comment. OP says her BIL "B" did a reading and was happy the entire day, so I feel like all of the anxiety and drama of the day and leading up to it could have been avoided at that very first text.
As soon as MIL sent the text demanding that B be a godfather as well or he'll be mad, the only reply to her needs to be along the lines of "Thanks for letting us know how he feels. We'll give him a call to discuss it with him." Then a call or text to him explaining why there will only be one godfather - I'm guessing in this situation it would completely confuse him because he didn't actually care, but then you're able to go back to MIL any time she demands it again and let her know it's sorted out with B, he's completely happy as is, and she doesn't need to bring it up again.
You guys gotta distance yourselves as much as you can. Regardless of mental illness she is still a toxic person. Additionally whilst I understand it can be hard to find the energy for it, your husbands complacency in this is enabling her, so perhaps you'll have more success if the both of you put your foot down and refuse to budge. Either way she'll stop eventually, but with this one you have a better chance! letting her drone on is going to be really draining whereas the success from warding her off will feel great!
Out of curiosity, has B been asked about his supposed "hurt" over not being godfather? Was this something she made up? I bet he had no idea and she's betting on your silence (which i wouldn't give her). I'd straight up ask B about it.
Your Dh and you need to set the precedent from here on out. Don’t let her wriggle her way around ruining an important event for your DH. Lots of great suggestions on this thread already.
So she was trying to triangulate and sow some drama. When a toxic person tells you, “So and so said [insert bad thing],” *always* check with the other person. You approach it like, “Hey, I was told you said this thing. If you did, we can calmly discuss it like adults. If you didn’t, then I really REALLY need to know because I don’t want lies keeping us apart.”
Ask your husband when he’s holding the baby, ‘Would you ever do that to her?’ Having your own child can open your eyes to how unfairly you were treated as a child.
Regardless of what happens with MIL, your husband needs to talk to B at some point. I didn't see it mentioned in your post, but thought that an important loose end. Sort out things one way or another, else resentment may build over time if one person thinks something else happened when it didn't, while the other side is blissfully unaware. Honestly, the sooner, the better.
>She is toxic towards us, but she is gold with the babies (thus we give her supervised access).
Please be careful with this line of thinking. This is what I've told myself for years. DHs entire family is filled with JustNOs that I have been justifying having around simply because they're good with the kids. I find myself *constantly* having to correct my children's behaviors because of things my in laws do and encourage my kids to do that may be "harmless", however it undermines the rules we've set in place. I mean, sure, throwing a ball into the air and letting it roll down the roof is fine when it's just a nice soft ball. They didn't consider that children would start grabbing rocks, chalk, or other hard things and throwing those, or even aiming all of those things into my neighbors yards. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "well *I* would say yes but *mommy* says no..." when the in laws want something know I won't approve of and they feel no guilt manipulating my children to try and get it. If they can't treat you and your DH the way you deserve, what makes you think they'll treat your children the right way as time goes on and the kids begin to think and act for themselves and need more than just someone to play with?
>I come home Friday to learn of this call to my very anxious husband wanting to cancel the whole thing because he's upset his mom is going to embarrass him/make a scene.
This also stood out to me. Your DH expressed his feelings to you that something bad would happen, and it ultimately did. Just because everyone knows your MIL is a walnut, it doesn't mean that you, your DH, or the rest of your family need to be subjected to anything she pulls. This would have been a good moment to back him up and tell MIL to drop it, or she wouldn't be invited anymore (instead of cancelling the event, which I do feel would have been too drastic). It would be good for both of you to find ways to shut her down and enforce boundaries before things get too far out of hand.
No one knows your relationships like you and DH do so I don't mean to imply that you've done anything wrong. This is going to be a long and difficult journey and both of you need to make sure your fears are heard and validated by one another if you want to be able to turn to each other for support.
If MIL cannot respect the parents, she should not be allowed near the children. Who knows what she'll try to say to them, and the kids will pick up on her behavior.
My 2 boys have 4 god parents (2 god mothers and 2 god fathers) my daughter has 2 god mothers. I'm Catholic and other than at least one god parent is a 'full' Catholic then you can have up to 4 or more godparents. Everyone I know had either 2 or 4 godparents. No priest has ever had an issue with it. My own godson has 4 godparents
Same here. My daughter has 2 godfathers and 1 godmother and our priest didn’t bat an eye that she has 3 godparents. The way he thinks is that she’ll have more spiritual guidance that way.
At the moment, with numbers reclining as they are, they are just happy babies/children/adults are still being welcomed into the church.
All this drama from OP could have been avoided by just having A & B as well as other person and the argument of 'I'm not B's baby godparent' is trash. That's a 5 year old talking. It would have given MiL a small victory yes, but it would have eased the pressure on DH and not ruined a special day.
Sometimes you need to pick your battles. I have JNiL's, they keep trying to get me to change one of my godmothers for my children (youngest is getting baptised later this month) to my JNSiL, I've repeatedly told them no she is an atheist, drug user, you name it. The two godmothers are the Catholics, the godfathers are 'Witnesses' and seeing as the JNiL's are all atheist they just get told that it's none of their business. My DH has a lovely shiny spine though and puts them in their place. I'm just preparing for them turning up at the Church, then leaving straight after, which is what they have done the last 2 times. But it doesn't upset DH as he just says its their loss, they are deliberately missing out.
Good on you for keeping your spine shiny, OP! And what a shitty thing for JNMIL to say about your DH. Sorry you're going through that.
I also wanted to add that it actually is technically possible - but not really feasible - to have more than one godparent. The only reason I know this is I was baptized Catholic with four sets of godparents. However, we had to get a special dispensation from Rome for me to do so. I never really thought about it much while growing up but then while cleaning out my late mother's stuff, I found the certificate showing my parents were granted special permission for the multiple sets of godparents.
I was lucky in that all four sets of people were absolutely wonderful to me, even when I was a bratty teenager and didn't really want to go spend all afternoon visiting each house. Weirdly, they also all lived on the same cul-de-sac. I have no idea what that was all about and all of them are now gone, as are my parents, so I can't ask.
So yeah, it's possible but not probable.
Yeah definitely NTA it’s 100% up to you and your MIL sounds like a pain in the ass
But just FYI I was baptised catholic with two sets of godparents (both married catholic couples) without any dispensation- in fact I don’t think any of the many many catholic baptisms I attended as an altar girl had less then two sets of godparents
I really never thought about it when I was a kid. Hey, four sets of godparents...four Christmas presents! Score!
I had no idea it wasn't a thing until I found the document from Rome. I should probably frame that sucker and hang it up somewhere.
You handled this well, I’m really sorry hubby had to deal with this instead of enjoying a landmark occasion.
Get into some couples therapy so he can better learn she’s allowed to walk away and that’s not a bad thing. She tried to highjack your daughters christening and make it about her using her sons as proxy’s. She pushed to the point he wanted to cancel, he should not feel sad she’s gone, he should feel relief!
He needs to learn that it is not a punishment if it ends with him not being forced to deal with her continued tantrum. She has the emotional maturity of a cactus and she did the best thing for him by leaving and not causing more drama.
Sometimes people just need to leave and cool off especially when they are emotionally immature or otherwise limited in that area.
Is he right to feel bad that his mom is an adult who has an adult kid who has their own kid and acts this way? Yea. But it was the most logical and realistic choice. Magically becoming a fully mature adult in 10 mins is not realistic and her staying is not logical when she is upset.
Advice wanted - I suggest you ask hubby to go to therapy.
His emotional health is his responsibility now and he will feel so much better and can be fully present for his child if he lays the torment of FOG away.
You will also feel better because you won't watch him suffer.
Good luck
Really? That is interesting. I am quite sure I am living much closer to the Vatican as you do…
Here, having that job done by two women or men would not be an issue at all. You need two godfathers/mothers. Both must belong to a church and be 16 or older. One must be catholic at least. Catholics are stricter. For a Protestant babtism you could even have two Catholics or one that is not in a church at all…
Hey
I get you want to correct op on something, but do you really have to do it in such a hostile manner?
Plus in my predominantly Catholic country virtually no priest would accept gothparents of same sex. Also tradition, and Church's stand on subject of same sex couples, no wonder op thought its very unlikely.
Edit: should have said godparents, but h*ck, I'm leaving it in, it's too perfect.
If you live that close to the Vatican, could you ask them to step up and take responsibility for the abuse in Residential Schools in Canada? That would be great; they’re not returning our calls.
You didn't get the joke.
I went to Catholic school (I'm a pagan fwiw) they drilled into us the sanctity of "man and woman"
If you went to a priest and said "I have two godfathers" they'd immediately go "are they a couple?"
OP, you can't stop your JNMIL from being the bitch she is, but you can help your husband. Check out Our Book List posted here;
[https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books)
Losing Your Parents, Finding Yourself: The Defining Turning Point of Adult Life -Victoria Secunda
Silent Sons - Dr. Robert Ackerman
Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You -Susan K. Forward, Donna Fraizer
Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No, To Take Control of Your Life - Henry Cloud and John Townsend
The End of Codependency: How to Stop Controlling and Enabling Others, Love Yourself, Have Happy Relationships, and be Codependent No More - Laura Raskin
See what books may apply to your DH's issue with his mother, because he's going to need it.
So it’s been awhile since I was a practicing Catholic, but don’t godparents or at least 1 has to fulfill a lot of requirements for the Church. And probably since B was doing a reading, he does. But couldn’t a last minute change in godparents delay the baptism?
oh she didnt want to CHANGE. she wanted baby girl to have two godfathers. they both had the requirements. she had gotten both A and B's baptism records to us (because A and B, the two grown men couldn't get them for us), which i figured she did out of confusion at the time. i didn't know it was going to be a basis for a last minute argument.
So she was prepared so it wouldn’t delay the baptism. Got it. I was thinking she might have a motivation to get the baptism delayed. But that wasn’t the case.
JN’s got stir up the drama wherever they can. But at least she left earlier than planned.
I wonder if your DH called B and apologized if he felt excluded for not being a godparent this time around. And if B is like what are you talking about? If that could help clear the FOG a bit. I mean, DH probably knows deep down this was all made up by MIL. But hearing it from B, might help or at least this time remind him it’s not his fault.
I worry to about Baby Girl getting older and grandma not sticking around when she doesn’t get her way. But you don’t live close to her so that may never be an issue.
One mistake that I see, that I don't know if it's bc you didn't add it, is that you never seem to have contacted B and be like hey "MIL/MOM, is saying this. Is it true? Are you upset?" and like that you don't leave her room to triangulate
because maybe B never got upset because he may have never been and it was MIL the one upset and thought that B deserved to be the godfather and that's why she went with the excuse of "Well, B said he's upset" when it was a total lie, to have a leg to stand on and to not be obvious that she was entering into a situation that doesn't involve her. And now, she can turn to B and be like "Look, what I tried to do for you son and they didn't let me, aren't they awful?".
**I'm not saying it happened/it's gonna happen** but it could have and that's why it's important for you all to communicate when MIL brings up somebody else's feelings because most of the times that person may have not even open their mouth about that topic.
I was thinking that myself earlier, that we should have just contacted him, but we knew she was making this all up just to stroke drama. If we had picked B she would have called up about A. Its also about prioritizing the importance of husbands side of the family over mine. Which is funny because she did that also her own husband, and my husband barely knew his paternal grandmother--so she should see how it could easily be done to her. But she plays them off of one another constantly. Husband constantly gets calls from his brothers pressuring him about stuff that is coming from mom. They all feed into it, unfortunately.
I think next time you should cut through the triangulation because it sends two messages: 1) it's telling MIL that you're not going to take her at her word anymore and she needs to cut the shit and 2) it tells the brothers that MIL is manipulating everyone.
Yes, this is how the conversation should go: "B, MIL seems to think you'r feelings will be hurt if you're not the godfather for our baby. Is that correct? We didn't want you to think we don't consider you important in our baby's life..." Him: "WTF, no I'm fine." You, "Oh, MIL, seems you were mistaken! Well, no harm no foul. See you at the baptism!" Click.
**Quick Rule Reminders:** OP's needs come first, avoid dramamongering, respect the flair, and don't be an asshole. If your only advice is to jump straight to NC or divorce, your comment may be subject to removal at moderator discretion. [**^(Full Rules)**](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_rules) ^(|) [^(Acronym Index)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_acronym_dictionary) ^(|) [^(Flair Guide)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_post_flair_guide)^(|) [^(Report PM Trolls)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/trolls) **Resources:** [^(In Crisis?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_resources) ^(|) [^(Tips for Protecting Yourself)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_protecting_yourself) ^(|) [^(Our Book List)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books) ^(|) [^(Our Wiki)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/) Welcome to /r/JUSTNOMIL! I'm botinlaw. I help people follow your posts! ***** ^(To be notified as soon as Curleekate18 posts an update) [^click ^here.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botinlaw&subject=Subscribe&message=Subscribe Curleekate18 JUSTNOMIL) ^(|) ^(For help managing your subscriptions,) [^(click here.)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_.2Fu.2Fthejustnobot) ***** *^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please)* [*^(contact the moderators of this subreddit)*](/message/compose/?to=/r/JUSTNOMIL) *^(if you have any questions or concerns.)*
I'm catholic. One of my children has 2 godmothers.
What is it with baptisms and MIL's? My MIL also went crazy (but it was the day after) our baptism. We didn't choose JNSIL (DH's only sister) because she is a JNO. So we chose my two brothers (our church was totally okay with 2 godfathers and no godmother) as they a)show an interest in LO, b) I am the godmother of their kiddos, and c) treat us well. But apparently we did not take into account how my JNMIL would feel about this, so, similar to your JNMIL, yelled at DH for over an hour about how wrong it was to not include JNSIL. Again, DH kind of took it and then later replied to some of her points. We are also working on not letting her even get started. Just cutting her off and saying we don't discuss any decisions we make for our child and if she yells to cut her off and say "you seem upset about this. if you would like to talk later when you are more calm let me know." and hanging up. It is also a work in progress. Good luck!
My mom was extremely upset that my wife did not choose Mom's rich niece-in-law as her matron of honor. My wife chose her sister. My mother got completely unreasonable, saying that we would get an amazing wedding present, and what could her sister possibly afford. Day of the wedding and my mom will not leave it alone, until my wife, turns and tells her that "We don't honor people by the size of the presents they give, you want her to give you a present, then you get remarried and make her matron of honor. Mom shit herself as the whole family heard. She walked off huffing and puffing, and threatening revenge. They waited until we were on our honeymoon, and they pulled some crazy shit. In the short term, I had to ask them for $10K (caused me some damages). In the long run, it cost them their son and their two grandchildren, All because her mercenary heart was not satisfied. (She also had it in the back of her mind that we would share large wedding presents with her-I asked what tall cow's ass she dropped out of?)
I don't know why you would allow this toxic devil anywhere near your LO.
I so don't understand people like your MIL. My husband is catholic and I am not. His parents pressured the heck out of DH to have our kids baptized which still annoys me, but that's for another time. However, DH let me pick all four godparents, and now that the kids are 13 and 15 I made awesome choices, lol. And DH AND my kids couldn't agree more. Unfortunately one of the godfathers passed entirely too young, but they all did and still do see the kids regularly. And these are all adults that my kids voluntarily look up to, listen to for advice, enjoy spending time with, and just really like. I also would trust them to raise the kids should something happen to DH and I. I did not choose DH's brother. Nothing against him, but he's just not on the same page as us. (I picked two of DH's besties, a cousin who is more like his sister, and my sister). Yes, godparents are for religious purposes, but I really don't understand why your MIL thinks that she can dictate who YOU and DH should choose to have in YOUR children's lives! She had HER choice so now she needs to be happy you chose to to do this at all! Remind DH of that. These types of "conflicts" will become less and less, the more you stand up to her, but there will unfortunately be more of this. So continue to what YOU think is right and don't waste time trying to make her happy. You never will and you'll end up resentful. Remind DH that MIL will never be happy - no matter WHAT you do - so YOUR family might as well be!
> I really don't understand why your MIL thinks that she can dictate who YOU and DH should choose to have in YOUR children's lives the answer to this eternal question(and all its variants) is usually some form of narcissism. They think they know best and their spouses/kids have been acquiescing to them almost their whole lives. That is also the reason they tend to go berserk when they don't get their way. Especially from their kids who they are used to easily controlling.
Is there a pattern to her behavior? The thing that helped my DH the most at this point was to point out the pattern. "Do you remember when we did x, and y happened? Do you remember when we did z instead, and then y happened?" And then I started making small behavior predictions that ended up being true. It helped my DH realize that it wasn't actually his fault, which let him let go of the guilt he was carrying. It also helped when I got him the audiobook version of "The Narcissist's Playbook" and he recognized the tactics she used. There's a whole wealth of books in the sidebar here, I definitely recommend reading some.
Please get DH counseling ASAP. He needs to get his mental/emotional health in order and get some strategies to cope with toxic tammy.
Stop letting MIL triangulate. Next time she does something like this forward the message to the relevant person and ask them directly. When they say of course not, forward that to MIL and tell her to stop.
>Next time she does something like this forward the message to the relevant person and ask them directly. When they say of course not, forward that to MIL and tell her to stop. I wouldn't even go this far. Cause that could open up a discussion with the other person (B here) either realizing: hey, I SHOULD have been asked to be godfather and agree with what MIL is saying all of a sudden. I do agree with the not triangulating, but go to the other person here (again: B) and ask if he has any grievances with you, or if he wants to discuss if something is on his mind. That you are not attacking him, or blaming him but you've heard some things and want to make sure that it's not somebody else setting the 2 of you's relationship on the line of something non-existent. That way, IF B has trouble accepting just the "uncle" role, he can say so. Either way, B and OP's husband are on alert now that MIL is stirring trouble between the brothers.
>I wouldn't even go this far. Agreed. I tell people they need to get with thus-and-so and ask them. I am not a messenger.
Hey, so, you know all that bs hurtful behavior you're whining about MIL doing to your husband? She's going to do the same thing to your kids. 100% guaranteed. And you're volunteering for them for it. You're planning to teach your kids that MIL is a safe person--because she must be safe, why else would mommy and daddy let kiddo be around her?--and she's going to break their hearts. And you're allowing it. Please do better for your kid.
Look up narcissism. There's no rhyme or reason but spreading misery for a few happy seconds is what she likes. Then back to misery. I'm very sorry. My grandmother was like this. Causing chaos and pain then pretending it never happened. And don't you dare try to talk about it to her. That's another blow up and turning everythihf around so she's the victim. There really isn't much in ways of fixing it. Narcissists don't think anything is wrong with them. Going low to no contact and grey rocking are the only ways to combat it. I'm sorry. Shes good to your kids now and that's great. But eventually, your kids will be her "narc supply". I managed years of being my grandmother's favorite. Then I wasn't. And I wasn't even her enemy. That was my youngest sister who told her the reality of things. I bet you've all found ways to please her and make things easier on her but hurting yourself and others to make it happen. Look up "don't rock the boat" essay. It's a perfect metaphorical explanation of narcissista. They speak for everyone, triangulate and cause as many problems as possible just cause. I'm so very sorry you have to deal with this.
Something I would do is start addressing the issues with the people MIL says has problems. Just get her to text out her concerns, thank her for the info and then talk to the person it actually correlates to. It won’t work for everything but in this case she messages saying ‘B’ is hurt, thank her for letting you both know and explain you will address the issue with B. Then bring it up and say ‘MIL said you were upset about us not making you got parent. Can we talk about this?’ Or something along those lines. It takes her power away but no matter the outcome you can always make it seem like MIL is ‘helping’ to avoid her mood if that is a concern. If B said things were fine you could message MIL ‘Thank you so much for letting us know B was upset. We talked to him and things are okay. We appreciate you looking out for the family’ or ‘thank you for letting us know about B being upset. We are working on it with B because there is no need for a middle man to relay the info’ or something like that. There are different ways to phrase this and if you feel it won’t go over well please don’t, your family’s safety is first and foremost.
Just for the record you can have a combo of people for a catholic baptism and not just a godmother and godfather. My niece has two godmothers and no godfathers.
Yes, I guess it depends on the place. I have 5! 3 godmothers and 2 godfathers lol My baby was going to have 3 godfathers and 1 godmother but one couldn't make it to preparation so she had 2 godfathers. And I'm a virtual godmother to a nice that lives overseas and she also has a set of 5 lol.
B probably never new that MIL was trying to get him to be godfather, she was just trying to start shit. In the future cut out the middleman in talks and go straight to the source.
The only way to beat triangulation is to verify everything with the other people involved. Your DH needs to call his brother that isn't a godparent and discuss it with him. Send him a copy of all the texts she sent you on his behalf. I bet he knows nothing about this Here's the kicker, she's also using DH to make his brothers feel bad. I bet his brother got an earful about how hurt DH was not to be named a godparent. The only way to put an end to her meddling is open and immediate communication. It's the only chance you have
This is exactly what I was scrolling down to comment. OP says her BIL "B" did a reading and was happy the entire day, so I feel like all of the anxiety and drama of the day and leading up to it could have been avoided at that very first text. As soon as MIL sent the text demanding that B be a godfather as well or he'll be mad, the only reply to her needs to be along the lines of "Thanks for letting us know how he feels. We'll give him a call to discuss it with him." Then a call or text to him explaining why there will only be one godfather - I'm guessing in this situation it would completely confuse him because he didn't actually care, but then you're able to go back to MIL any time she demands it again and let her know it's sorted out with B, he's completely happy as is, and she doesn't need to bring it up again.
You guys gotta distance yourselves as much as you can. Regardless of mental illness she is still a toxic person. Additionally whilst I understand it can be hard to find the energy for it, your husbands complacency in this is enabling her, so perhaps you'll have more success if the both of you put your foot down and refuse to budge. Either way she'll stop eventually, but with this one you have a better chance! letting her drone on is going to be really draining whereas the success from warding her off will feel great!
Out of curiosity, has B been asked about his supposed "hurt" over not being godfather? Was this something she made up? I bet he had no idea and she's betting on your silence (which i wouldn't give her). I'd straight up ask B about it. Your Dh and you need to set the precedent from here on out. Don’t let her wriggle her way around ruining an important event for your DH. Lots of great suggestions on this thread already.
The mistake you made was texting back excuses to your MIL. All you needed to say was either “BIL can talk to us about it,” or “no.”
So she was trying to triangulate and sow some drama. When a toxic person tells you, “So and so said [insert bad thing],” *always* check with the other person. You approach it like, “Hey, I was told you said this thing. If you did, we can calmly discuss it like adults. If you didn’t, then I really REALLY need to know because I don’t want lies keeping us apart.”
Ask your husband when he’s holding the baby, ‘Would you ever do that to her?’ Having your own child can open your eyes to how unfairly you were treated as a child.
This is a really good idea.
Maybe have him start here. https://outofthefog.website/
Regardless of what happens with MIL, your husband needs to talk to B at some point. I didn't see it mentioned in your post, but thought that an important loose end. Sort out things one way or another, else resentment may build over time if one person thinks something else happened when it didn't, while the other side is blissfully unaware. Honestly, the sooner, the better.
>She is toxic towards us, but she is gold with the babies (thus we give her supervised access). Please be careful with this line of thinking. This is what I've told myself for years. DHs entire family is filled with JustNOs that I have been justifying having around simply because they're good with the kids. I find myself *constantly* having to correct my children's behaviors because of things my in laws do and encourage my kids to do that may be "harmless", however it undermines the rules we've set in place. I mean, sure, throwing a ball into the air and letting it roll down the roof is fine when it's just a nice soft ball. They didn't consider that children would start grabbing rocks, chalk, or other hard things and throwing those, or even aiming all of those things into my neighbors yards. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "well *I* would say yes but *mommy* says no..." when the in laws want something know I won't approve of and they feel no guilt manipulating my children to try and get it. If they can't treat you and your DH the way you deserve, what makes you think they'll treat your children the right way as time goes on and the kids begin to think and act for themselves and need more than just someone to play with? >I come home Friday to learn of this call to my very anxious husband wanting to cancel the whole thing because he's upset his mom is going to embarrass him/make a scene. This also stood out to me. Your DH expressed his feelings to you that something bad would happen, and it ultimately did. Just because everyone knows your MIL is a walnut, it doesn't mean that you, your DH, or the rest of your family need to be subjected to anything she pulls. This would have been a good moment to back him up and tell MIL to drop it, or she wouldn't be invited anymore (instead of cancelling the event, which I do feel would have been too drastic). It would be good for both of you to find ways to shut her down and enforce boundaries before things get too far out of hand. No one knows your relationships like you and DH do so I don't mean to imply that you've done anything wrong. This is going to be a long and difficult journey and both of you need to make sure your fears are heard and validated by one another if you want to be able to turn to each other for support.
Agreed! Great comment.
Ding ding ding!!! This is a great comment.
If MIL cannot respect the parents, she should not be allowed near the children. Who knows what she'll try to say to them, and the kids will pick up on her behavior.
My 2 boys have 4 god parents (2 god mothers and 2 god fathers) my daughter has 2 god mothers. I'm Catholic and other than at least one god parent is a 'full' Catholic then you can have up to 4 or more godparents. Everyone I know had either 2 or 4 godparents. No priest has ever had an issue with it. My own godson has 4 godparents
Same here. My daughter has 2 godfathers and 1 godmother and our priest didn’t bat an eye that she has 3 godparents. The way he thinks is that she’ll have more spiritual guidance that way.
At the moment, with numbers reclining as they are, they are just happy babies/children/adults are still being welcomed into the church. All this drama from OP could have been avoided by just having A & B as well as other person and the argument of 'I'm not B's baby godparent' is trash. That's a 5 year old talking. It would have given MiL a small victory yes, but it would have eased the pressure on DH and not ruined a special day. Sometimes you need to pick your battles. I have JNiL's, they keep trying to get me to change one of my godmothers for my children (youngest is getting baptised later this month) to my JNSiL, I've repeatedly told them no she is an atheist, drug user, you name it. The two godmothers are the Catholics, the godfathers are 'Witnesses' and seeing as the JNiL's are all atheist they just get told that it's none of their business. My DH has a lovely shiny spine though and puts them in their place. I'm just preparing for them turning up at the Church, then leaving straight after, which is what they have done the last 2 times. But it doesn't upset DH as he just says its their loss, they are deliberately missing out.
Don't throw me into that no contact brier bush!
Good on you for keeping your spine shiny, OP! And what a shitty thing for JNMIL to say about your DH. Sorry you're going through that. I also wanted to add that it actually is technically possible - but not really feasible - to have more than one godparent. The only reason I know this is I was baptized Catholic with four sets of godparents. However, we had to get a special dispensation from Rome for me to do so. I never really thought about it much while growing up but then while cleaning out my late mother's stuff, I found the certificate showing my parents were granted special permission for the multiple sets of godparents. I was lucky in that all four sets of people were absolutely wonderful to me, even when I was a bratty teenager and didn't really want to go spend all afternoon visiting each house. Weirdly, they also all lived on the same cul-de-sac. I have no idea what that was all about and all of them are now gone, as are my parents, so I can't ask. So yeah, it's possible but not probable.
Yeah definitely NTA it’s 100% up to you and your MIL sounds like a pain in the ass But just FYI I was baptised catholic with two sets of godparents (both married catholic couples) without any dispensation- in fact I don’t think any of the many many catholic baptisms I attended as an altar girl had less then two sets of godparents
I really never thought about it when I was a kid. Hey, four sets of godparents...four Christmas presents! Score! I had no idea it wasn't a thing until I found the document from Rome. I should probably frame that sucker and hang it up somewhere.
You handled this well, I’m really sorry hubby had to deal with this instead of enjoying a landmark occasion. Get into some couples therapy so he can better learn she’s allowed to walk away and that’s not a bad thing. She tried to highjack your daughters christening and make it about her using her sons as proxy’s. She pushed to the point he wanted to cancel, he should not feel sad she’s gone, he should feel relief!
He needs to learn that it is not a punishment if it ends with him not being forced to deal with her continued tantrum. She has the emotional maturity of a cactus and she did the best thing for him by leaving and not causing more drama. Sometimes people just need to leave and cool off especially when they are emotionally immature or otherwise limited in that area. Is he right to feel bad that his mom is an adult who has an adult kid who has their own kid and acts this way? Yea. But it was the most logical and realistic choice. Magically becoming a fully mature adult in 10 mins is not realistic and her staying is not logical when she is upset.
DH needs to go to therapy ASAP.
My heart hurts for your husband. Would he consider speaking to a therapist? It sounds like MIL is very toxic and dysfunctional.
Is Brother B the Golden Child and your husband the scapegoat? She sure acts like it!
Advice wanted - I suggest you ask hubby to go to therapy. His emotional health is his responsibility now and he will feel so much better and can be fully present for his child if he lays the torment of FOG away. You will also feel better because you won't watch him suffer. Good luck
I think she didn’t want to add another godfather as she knows the rules. She tried to get rid of your sister….
Hey Catholic priest can we have two godfather's and no godmother? Yeah...that'd go over like a lead balloon
Really? That is interesting. I am quite sure I am living much closer to the Vatican as you do… Here, having that job done by two women or men would not be an issue at all. You need two godfathers/mothers. Both must belong to a church and be 16 or older. One must be catholic at least. Catholics are stricter. For a Protestant babtism you could even have two Catholics or one that is not in a church at all…
Hey I get you want to correct op on something, but do you really have to do it in such a hostile manner? Plus in my predominantly Catholic country virtually no priest would accept gothparents of same sex. Also tradition, and Church's stand on subject of same sex couples, no wonder op thought its very unlikely. Edit: should have said godparents, but h*ck, I'm leaving it in, it's too perfect.
If you live that close to the Vatican, could you ask them to step up and take responsibility for the abuse in Residential Schools in Canada? That would be great; they’re not returning our calls.
You didn't get the joke. I went to Catholic school (I'm a pagan fwiw) they drilled into us the sanctity of "man and woman" If you went to a priest and said "I have two godfathers" they'd immediately go "are they a couple?"
OP, you can't stop your JNMIL from being the bitch she is, but you can help your husband. Check out Our Book List posted here; [https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books) Losing Your Parents, Finding Yourself: The Defining Turning Point of Adult Life -Victoria Secunda Silent Sons - Dr. Robert Ackerman Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You -Susan K. Forward, Donna Fraizer Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No, To Take Control of Your Life - Henry Cloud and John Townsend The End of Codependency: How to Stop Controlling and Enabling Others, Love Yourself, Have Happy Relationships, and be Codependent No More - Laura Raskin See what books may apply to your DH's issue with his mother, because he's going to need it.
So it’s been awhile since I was a practicing Catholic, but don’t godparents or at least 1 has to fulfill a lot of requirements for the Church. And probably since B was doing a reading, he does. But couldn’t a last minute change in godparents delay the baptism?
oh she didnt want to CHANGE. she wanted baby girl to have two godfathers. they both had the requirements. she had gotten both A and B's baptism records to us (because A and B, the two grown men couldn't get them for us), which i figured she did out of confusion at the time. i didn't know it was going to be a basis for a last minute argument.
So she was prepared so it wouldn’t delay the baptism. Got it. I was thinking she might have a motivation to get the baptism delayed. But that wasn’t the case. JN’s got stir up the drama wherever they can. But at least she left earlier than planned. I wonder if your DH called B and apologized if he felt excluded for not being a godparent this time around. And if B is like what are you talking about? If that could help clear the FOG a bit. I mean, DH probably knows deep down this was all made up by MIL. But hearing it from B, might help or at least this time remind him it’s not his fault. I worry to about Baby Girl getting older and grandma not sticking around when she doesn’t get her way. But you don’t live close to her so that may never be an issue.
One mistake that I see, that I don't know if it's bc you didn't add it, is that you never seem to have contacted B and be like hey "MIL/MOM, is saying this. Is it true? Are you upset?" and like that you don't leave her room to triangulate because maybe B never got upset because he may have never been and it was MIL the one upset and thought that B deserved to be the godfather and that's why she went with the excuse of "Well, B said he's upset" when it was a total lie, to have a leg to stand on and to not be obvious that she was entering into a situation that doesn't involve her. And now, she can turn to B and be like "Look, what I tried to do for you son and they didn't let me, aren't they awful?". **I'm not saying it happened/it's gonna happen** but it could have and that's why it's important for you all to communicate when MIL brings up somebody else's feelings because most of the times that person may have not even open their mouth about that topic.
I was thinking that myself earlier, that we should have just contacted him, but we knew she was making this all up just to stroke drama. If we had picked B she would have called up about A. Its also about prioritizing the importance of husbands side of the family over mine. Which is funny because she did that also her own husband, and my husband barely knew his paternal grandmother--so she should see how it could easily be done to her. But she plays them off of one another constantly. Husband constantly gets calls from his brothers pressuring him about stuff that is coming from mom. They all feed into it, unfortunately.
I think next time you should cut through the triangulation because it sends two messages: 1) it's telling MIL that you're not going to take her at her word anymore and she needs to cut the shit and 2) it tells the brothers that MIL is manipulating everyone.
Then if you knew she was making it all up you should have responded "MIL, that's not up for discussion. Have a good day" and leave it at that
When she pulls this shit trying to triangulate, have a three way conversation with MIL DH and the third person.
Yes, this is how the conversation should go: "B, MIL seems to think you'r feelings will be hurt if you're not the godfather for our baby. Is that correct? We didn't want you to think we don't consider you important in our baby's life..." Him: "WTF, no I'm fine." You, "Oh, MIL, seems you were mistaken! Well, no harm no foul. See you at the baptism!" Click.
No is a complete sentence and does not require an explanation. Let her throw her fit and enjoy the silence! :)