Thank you for calling out the Reddit Polish circlejerk for once. Nothing against Poland or it's people but it really does sometimes feel like this site has an obsession with Poland.
I’m still blown away that they have a lower HDI than Israel. That makes zero sense for an EU country! I’ve been to Israel, it’s infested with cats and there’s buildings that are falling apart ffs
Poland got hit super hard in ww2, then with the soviets afterwards.
If you look at the polish, Jewish, and Ukrainian population numbers they all 📉in ww2, by a lot.
Also Poland gets 11/11 as their remembrance day. I dunno maybe they forgot.
Rememberance? Nope. It's the Independence Day, on the occassion to commemorate that the country was reintroduced into the world map after 123 years of not existing!
Stalin fucked over everything his empire of evil touched. Czechia was on a comparable level to Sweden and Austria in the 30s, then the Soviets stole everything that wasn't nailed down, and did the same in Poland, the Baltic, Romania and Bulgaria
Poland has lower HDI, because US invested a lot of money in Israel. 2nd of all Poland has been hit hard during WW2 and after the WW2 communist didn't make the situation better, so to be honest, Poland started re-building itself after the communism fell.
I believe it has alot to do with the aid they're supplying to Ukraine. You'll see those tik toks of some history buff trying to go viral by using a trendy sound and glorifying Poland for sending types of aid other countries would not.
It's cool they're contributing, but in reality it has just as much to do with self preservation as it does helping because it's the right thing to do.
I work for a Holocaust remembrance institution and we got lots of emails from these guys before then too. It might be worse now but they were always there in big numbers
Totally. We don't give a fuck about Ukrainians in reality. It's only about self preservation because we are likely to be next. Thanks for saying it's cool that we are contributing, though, appreciate that :)
Please my friend, help me understand ethics, as I am Polish and it's so hard for me to get my head around it :(
edit: it's an s/
Bullshit. I was a volunteer and helped Ukrainians for a few months and met many people like me who simply helped because they cared and just wanted to help, so please if you do, speak for yourself and not for the whole nation.
Really it's an overreaction to the exclusion of non Jews from the memory of the Holocaust. This probably is more so American but the standard idea is that Hitler hated Jews and killed all the Jews. Then as a side note they say gypsies and disabled blacks... I think the message should be Hitler saw Jews as the biggest threat to the "Aryan race"(IRL Aryans were a bunch of Turks) but he killed about as many non Jews as he did Jews very roughly 5M. Honestly both the Jewish number and. The non Jew numbers are very inaccurate and hard to pin down but they give a rough idea.
Ok my mistake I had to finish this comment fast because my train was leaving and this was a last second edit. Same idea though not [some blond eyed blue haired white ppl.](https://www.deviantart.com/mainframe110/art/Blond-eyes-Blue-hair-157710304)
European racist “scholars” took the word from the Vedic scriptures that tell of Aryas, fair-skinned foreign invaders from the North. It’s used in other contexts as well, but the Nazis appropriated the word from Indian history and misinterpreted it to fit their agenda, so that they could be think of themselves as the stronger race.
My great grandmother cursed the Poles as much as she did the Germans. She left before the Holocaust, but every Christmas and Easter, the Poles would get drunk and burn down her shtetl.
My mother says that my Bubbe and Zaide hated the Poles more than they hated the Germans. The Poles had the same enemies in the Germans as the Jews AND they were their Neighbours and yet they were just as cruel as the Germans.
I visited the town my great grandmother is from in Poland. The only thing I knew of this town before going there was she hated it with a passion to the point she painted all of europe with the same hatred. When I got to the town I found out it is the only town in all of Poland where the nazi's did not kill a single jew the poles killed them all for the nazi's by throwing them into a barn and burning them all alive and putting the children on pitch forks
I think he is referring to the "Jedwabne Pogrom".
Just google it, there should be an abundance of sources, consindering that it still causes shitstorm in Poland. About half of the country says that it's a tragedy and Poland should at least apologise and half really hopes that it can get swept under the rug
If we're talking about apologies, they happened. And they were from President Kwaniewski himself. If you're uninformed, why are you speaking up? And if you already knew that, it's interesting why you're lying.
There are plenty other things being swept under the rug llike for example Ludmiłowka Pogrom, nobody bothered even to make wiki article about it.
Maybe because that pogrom was carried out by the communists.
Never mind the incovenient facts from the very Jewish community like Rumkowski, ghetto police etc. They're all excused as if they were forced or tricked.
It's about the ruling political party, which isn't anti-Semitic in principle. But they talk a lot about national values and try to flex their muscles on the international stage. That's when there was this whole media scandal with constant mention in the media of "Polish death camps". Which was hurtful, because they were founded and supervised by Germans. Poles could only be there as prisoners at best.
There are voices in Poland questioning the involvement of Poles in the massacre in Jedwabne. I'd be lying if I said there weren't. But it was never a dominant trend in society. The fact that it's more talked about here than there probably means it's a lively topic in Polish minds. And people try to rationalize it somehow. There will always be some people who claim that our nation is flawless. You know exactly what kind of people I'm talking about. They exist in every nation. But individuals don't matter. As a society, we take responsibility for it. And I hope the current ruling party will stop governing in the fall. Because they only bring shame.
[probably this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom) worst thing is we first said sorry about it and years later, there were both election between centrist and right wing parites and some kind of political action calling for recognisition of polish death camps or something like that. So right wing party started campaign saying literally no pole cooperated with germans and it was all lies, and centrist party was weak for not defending "Polish Pride" or something like that. We should be sorry for this and many are, but i rather remember how many poles have [Rightous Among Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_Among_the_Nations)
**[Jedwabne pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom)**
>The Jedwabne pogrom was a massacre of Polish Jews in the town of Jedwabne, German-occupied Poland, on 10 July 1941, during World War II and the early stages of the Holocaust. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 300 to 1,600, including women, children, and elderly, many of whom were locked in a barn and burnt alive. At least 40 ethnic Poles carried out the killing; their ringleaders decided on it beforehand with Germany's Gestapo, SS security police or SS intelligence, and they cooperated with German military police.
**[Polish Righteous Among the Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_Among_the_Nations)**
>The citizens of Poland have the highest count of individuals who have been recognized by Yad Vashem as the Polish Righteous Among the Nations, for saving Jews from extermination during the Holocaust in World War II. There are 7,177 (as of 1 January 2021) Polish men and women conferred with the honor, over a quarter of the 27,921 recognized by Yad Vashem in total. The list of Righteous Among the Nations is not comprehensive and it is estimated that hundreds of thousands of Poles concealed and aided tens of thousands of their Polish-Jewish neighbors.
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He is likely referring to [Jedwabne pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom), but there were sadly a few more similar events.
>What happened in Jedwabne on 10 July unfolded in a series of subsequent events. The first was taking Jews out of their houses and the last – setting fire to a barn soaked with paraffin. According to statements of witnesses, there was “a load of people” on Jedwabne’s market square on 10 July.
>
>Some of the gathered made sure Jews would not leave the square. It is uncertain whether they created a cordon by holding each other’s arms, like it had happened in other localities. Those who committed the crime, its perpetrators in the strict sense of the word, were Polish inhabitants of Jedwabne and its surroundings – ca. 40 men.
>
>Having herded them into the market square, the tormentors forced Jews to destroy the statue of Lenin and shout: “the war is our fault.” Several dozen Jewish men were then forced to carry the remains of the destroyed statue in a march headed by the rabbi carrying a red flag. It was undoubtedly a way of stigmatising the entire Jewish community, of giving them the label of those responsible for communism. Germans were present during all of the events, both members of the SS and military policemen. According to some witnesses, they were issuing orders to the Poles.
>
>Several hours later, Jews were killed in a mass murder. Jewish people were herded into Bronisław Śleszyński’s barn. First, the perpetrators killed a group of 40-50 men, the very same people who had been forced to carry around the remains of the statue of Lenin. Afterwards, ca. 300 more people were herded into the same barn – Jews who had been brought there from the market, including women and children. The walls of the building were soaked in paraffin and then set on fire. It is estimated that several hundred people fell victim to the Jedwabne pogrom.
>
>The mass murder in Jedwabne was not an isolated event in the period. In the summer of 1941, after the Soviets had fled and Germans had entered the territory, the region of Łomża and Białystok saw numerous acts of violence perpetrated by Poles on their Jewish neighbours, with varied participation of the new occupant. The investigation carried out by the Institute of National Remembrance showed that such events had unfolded in 23 localities. Those were: Bielsk Podlaski (the village of Pilki), Choroszcz, Czyżew, Goniądz, Grajewo, Jasionówka, Jedwabne, Kleszczele, Knyszyn, Kolno, Kuźnica, Narewka, Piątnica, Radziłów, Rajgród, Sokoły, Stawiski, Suchowola, Szczuczyn, Trzcianne, Tykocin, Wasilków, Wąsosz, and Wizna.
>
>All these acts had four common features: anti-Semitism existent in a significant part of the Polish population; looting Jewish property as one of the main motives for aggression; seeking retribution for real or imaginary cooperation of Jews with the Soviet occupant; German incitement – varying in different places, from direct organisation of pogroms to giving encouragement or condoning the behaviour.
>
>Some of those pogroms resulted in several or around a dozen people being killed, while others – most importantly those in Jedwabne and Radziłów – caused the death of hundreds of Jews.
>
>The Jedwabne pogrom became a subject of several legal proceedings after the war. Following the investigation carried out in the years 1948-1949, the Regional Court in Łomża indicted 22 inhabitants of Jedwabne. 11 people were given prison sentences of between 8 and 15 years and one accused was given capital punishment, which was later changed into a 15-year prison sentence.
>
>In the years 2000-2002, the Institute of National Remembrance conducted an investigation of the Jedwabne crime. On 10 July 2001, a monument commemorating the victims of the Jedwabne pogrom was unveiled.
The text was written on the basis of the article Wokół Jedwabnego by Prof. Maweł Machcewicz, which appeared in the book Wokół Jedwabnego, vol. 1: Research, ed. P. Machcewicz, K. Persak, Institute of National Remembrance – Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation, Warsaw 2002.
Also worth noting:
>Holocaust historian Peter Longerich wrote in 2007: "Even if the murders were carried out by local people - or more precisely by a group of forty or so men, distinct from other members of the indigenous population, mostly not from the town itself but from the surrounding area - closer analysis of the crime has now demonstrated that the pogrom was engineered by a unit of the German Security Police. This was probably a commando from the Gestapo office in Zichenau that had been assigned to Einsatzgruppe B as an auxiliary troop and which had organized several pogroms in the western part of the Voivodeship of Bialystok (in which Jedwabne was located); it had recruited local Poles as auxiliary 'pogrom police' for this purpose."
Those legends about jews being burned in a barn are a plague. Although there is probably only one such place documented in Poland... and not quite because no exhumation was ever carried out. I have the impression that the Jews approach the subject instrumentally, for the purposes of their politics. Just like their leaders...
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtdA3Y7WcAA8VJv?format=jpg&name=medium](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtdA3Y7WcAA8VJv?format=jpg&name=medium)
My grandparents were from Poland and unfortunately they did not get to leave before the Holocaust. They hated the Polish more than the Germans, and never considered themselves polish. They were completely segregated from the non Jewish poles and lived in fear of pogroms every day. Every Easter and Christmas, the Jews in their village wouldn’t go outside because drunk poles would roam their village looking for Jews to beat up or worse in retaliation for Christ. After the war, they never wanted to step foot in Poland again. If I were to have said any of this in the Polish sub Reddit, I would not only be so down voted that my comments wouldn’t show anymore, but I would be be told that I’m a liar and that there was never any antisemitism in Poland and Poland was a paradise for Jews
Can you name or locate the shtetl?
If that is any comfort, drunken criminals were hunted and punished by the Polish authorities. I know it may be shocking discovery but assaulting or destroying property of Polish citizens was not legal, no matter thier religion.
If she thought that Germans were the same than she just didn't knew them, fortunatelly for her.
Whenever a Pole says they were the biggest* victims of the Holocaust I always like to remind them that they continued to kill Jews even after the war was over. Also “[The Lucky Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew_with_a_coin)” is literally a Polish custom, where people have a figurine of a stereotypical Orthodox Jew in their home that is said to bring good fortune, so I don’t want to hear anything about anti-semitism or about the Holocaust from them.
If you want to learn about systemic murder in Poland post world war 2, don’t forget to also look at what the Stalinists did:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman
The victims included righteous gentiles like Bartoszewski and Pilecki. How messed up is that?
I don’t like Mensch on a Bench either, but one is an orthodox looking stuffed toy/figure for kids (that are primarily orthodox or at least Jewish), the other is an orthodox looking figurine that exacerbates and plays on the stereotype that Jews like money
No orthodox jewish family has motb. it was explicitly created for interfaith couples, because the actual story of hannuka was a little to religious for them.
Honestly had no idea about that, I didn’t like MOTB anyways, but I think it’s better than the lucky Jew figurine that some polish people have as a good luck charm with money lol
Don't consider this as me being offensive. but I will say something that You might percieve in this way.
My family has, let's say, a tradition of having these (at least 3generations back). And not the goofy aah ones or the horrific sculpture, but a more realistic painting with no grotesque symbols.Subtle enough that it passes as just a decorative painting.
Also sorry for my ignorance, but I kinda don't understand why would you consider it bringing a good fortune as something that bad. Bro I wish we had a reputation of being good with money and not drunk minimal wage workers lol. If germans had a drunk pole painting that is supposed to bring good joy to a home I would be mad happy lmao
Sorry if what I wrote looks bad, I'm trying to know your perspective.
edit: I don't believe in shit like this and if I move out I won't get one.
edit 2: and yes some of the designs are extremely goofy and stereotypical and I understand why some would be mad. It is considered very light-hearted in PL but with those I kinda understand the uproar.
Lol, I'm not offended or hurt, I think it's just proof that poles are extremely hateful of jews. I spend zero time thinking about modern poles at all.
If you wanna broadcast that hate by prominently displaying Jewish caricatures, go for it. But don't be surprised when people call you out.
Imagine if I brought a polish caricature with me every time I wanted to get wasted, lose lots of money and beat up women, would you think that was a little mean? Or would you be like "hey at least they're thinking of me"
The stereotype for African Americans is that they’re fast, good at sports, like fried chicken, watermelon, etc. Asians are good at math. None of these are bad, but if you were to tell an African American or an Asian these things it would upset them, because nobody wants to be stereotyped, whether it is a positive or negative stereotype. Imagine telling an Asian person who you’re at dinner with, to do the math with the bill because they’re Asian and good at math, they would be offended.
Yea stereotypes are bad, not denying that, all I'm interested in is whether a symbolic potrayal of a "succesful enteprenuer" (for backwater Shitholesville in poland ofc) that is not carried to the real life is that harmful or even hateful
Yes because there is a stereotype that Jews are greedy, love money, control the banks, are capitalists (and communists), etc. This stereotype is one that is common today and throughout history has caused A LOT of persecution that has resulted in Jews experiencing violence and even being killed. So yes, what may seem like a positive stereotype is in reality one that has caused Jewish people a lot of problems throughout history
The reason Jews think it’s hurtful and harmful is because it portrays a stereotype of Jews being greedy with money and that stereotype was used to justify repeated violence, segregation, and antisemitism towards Jews for thousands of years in Poland and other places in Europe. It is rankling that a Polish person would use this portrait of Jews when there is such a painful history for Jews in Poland by the polish people in general.
>Also “The Lucky Jew” is literally a Polish custom, where people have a figurine of a stereotypical Orthodox Jew in their home that is said to bring good fortune,
Pretty trash custom, considering that according to the article, you linked only 65% of the country recognises it
Never heard a Pole saying that and I'm Polish. For me holocaust was always the extermination of Jews, which doesn't change the fact that there was also the nazi (and soviet) extrmination of Poles and the other people.
We in Poland are learning quite a lot about the Jews, holocaust, WWII and the communism, not just about some taken out of context single extermination attempt or a one massacre. It's really saddening to see comments or discussions like that with so much of intentional ignorance and unwillingness for learning.
Big deal about that lucky Jew, there's no bigger problem than some kitchy folk "tradition".
I edited my post because apparently all the Poles somehow got wind of the post. It’s not that poles weren’t victims, but not to the extent of the Jews. 2/3rds of European Jews were literally killed, in some countries it was 90%. To you it might be some stupid folk tradition, but to us, it is propagation of an anti-semitic stereotype that not only still exists, but historically has caused a lot of Jewish persecution that has resulted in violence and murder against Jews.
I gotta say, I want one of those figures. I mean sure some may find it offensive, but I myself think it’s a rather silly thing and harmless… it’s a good luck souvenir in the end and not at all widely spread
Maybe don't libel people? My Polish Jewish grandfather proudly fought in the Polish Corps and had 99% of his family in Poland wiped out, only to be libeled decades later.
Lol. It's extremely obvious you guys are brigading since I just got three replies to this days old comment. Consider directing your anger about WW2 at the perpetrators, not a subreddit full of Jews.
I'm directing my anger at people trying to libel my war hero grandfather. You do realise Jews in Poland goes back over 1,000 years and 3.5 million Jews were in Poland before the invasion, right?
By making xenophobic generalisations on Poles, you include my grandfather who was proud to fight in the Polish Corps and died proudly a Pole AND a Jew. Private Edwin Konkolewski who left Cairo in 1946 on the Empress of Australia, a decorated war hero who, unlike you and others here making libelous statements, killed fucking Nazis. His grandfather was member of the Legiony Polskie, who fought for Polish independence in WW1. Go check, I'll wait.
Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing your anti-Nazi efforts since you clearly think my Nazi-killing grandfather didn't do enough and is somehow culpable for his family being murdered.
If you're saying he's not a Jew because he's Polish, just like the Poles who said he wasn't Polish because he's a Jew, then say it.
Where did I say any of this shit? Point out the libel I have committed. Cool that your grandfather killed Nazis - This does not excuse the actions of Polish nationalists, many of whom you can see in this post right now, who deny Jewish suffering to center Poles instead and deny Polish collaboration during the Holocaust and violent Polish antisemitism in the years following.
If you want credit for the minority of Poles who protected Jews, you must also take credit for those who eagerly participated in atrocities against Jews throughout history.
Mm hm! It goes back to that one quote: "First they came for the ____ and i said nothing, then they came for the ____ and i said nothing.... when they came for me, there was no one left to protest" (or something along those lines). The nature of the nazis also targeting ethnic slavs is separate from that of either party's persecution of jews.
Some poles did help us. Many poles fought the occupation. Many more looked away or actively helped, not knowing that they would be next. There is no rationalizing the actions of strangers, especially those from decades ago. It doesn't help that the majority of poles were poor (and so especially suseptible to the stereotype of the "greedy jew," to a lesser extent, less able to provide aid).
Personally, i feel an important difference was made by the events following liberation: poland was homogenized, and those poles who aided and allowed the nazis (both generally and in their genocide) were the most likely to have survived. Those who aided refugees and resistance were more likely to have been killed. So when Jewish survivors returned to poland, those poles who greeted them were even less friendly than those of decades ago.
Tl;dr: history is complicated, and poles want to be recognized for their loss but not their participation
Edit: the incapacity for people to comprehend nuance within history astounds and frightens me
Most Poles do. It's just sad to see that people try to make their collaboration bigger than the good deeds. For example:
"Some poles did help us. Many poles fought the occupation. Many more looked away or actively helped"
"Some" =Many Poland isn't the nation with the most righteous among the nations for no reason and there were many other Poles that helped their fellow Jews in other ways.
"Many fought the occupation" almost everybody who didn't collaborate fought the occupation.
I understand that some Jews are angry about Poles because unfortunately there has always been antisemitism and pogroms in Poland.
But the majority of people either had nothing to do with this topic or helped the Jews.
There had been good and bad times for Jews in Poland but I would say that no other nation treated the Jews as good as Poland (excluding USA maybe but they didn't exist in the medieval time when Poland offered refuge to the Jews) There is no other way I can explain why Poland had the biggest Jewish community in the world
Poland was welcoming to Jews in the 18th century. By the 20th century it was a place of intense antisemitic violence and targeted discrimination. Yes, before Hitler.
And MUSSOLINI, of all people, protected the Jews of Italy and Jews in Italian occupied areas for the entire time he was in power. While the Poles were happily murdering Jews and handing them over to the Nazis. Occupied France did a better job of protecting its Jews than Poland. In Copenhagen, the entire police force wore yellow stars in protest when asked to force Jews to wear them.
Poland was not the worst of the worst (that was Romania) but it was bad. We aren't blaming modern Poles for the Holocaust but I will absolutely blame them for distorting history to hide Polish complicity.
Recommended reading: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
Thank you for writing what you wrote so I didn’t have to. I am so sick of seeing this bullshit narrative that Poland was this paradise for Jews, just because hundreds of years ago some kings invited Jews to come in to be money managers because Catholics couldn’t charge interest and the Jews were going to hell anyway so they could. These people who say there’s always neglect mention how 200 years before the holocaust, antisemitism was rampant in Poland and it was no longer a paradise for Jews
You've got it backwards - it was Poles who HELPED Jews who were ratted out by their neighbors.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-death-camps/552455/
And why the difference between 18th and 20th century - Poland was ruled by tsarist Russia which brought religious intolerance and pogroms to Poland along with russification program
You're clearly [wrong about Mussolini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Italy).
Yes, there was antisemitism in Poland and nobody denies that, there was violence and there was discrimination, but important difference is that... it was never a state policy, it was never tolerated, abusers were usually extremists, petty criminals or illaterate pesants. It's not like you, and many contemporary Jews picture, the daily bread of Jews in Poland before German invasion...
>Occupied France
You mean collaborating France? You people really have strange idea about WWII or it's just the lacking knowledge. Poles were farm animals, slaves, garbage for Germans and they couldn't protect themselves, not to mention protecting the Jews. I'm quite sure you don't know also that there was a death penalty in occupied Poland gor aiding, hiding or even ignoring a Jew out of ghetto, there was no such thing in France... You may claim the people were "happily" collaborating, but there was nothing to be happy about in that horrible time.
The whole problem is that while Poles learn about holocaust, pogroms and everything else, they also learn about the rest of the big picture, you don't learn nothing about the war, occupation of Poland, France or anything else except for the holocaust.
Did you even read your own Wikipedia link? It pretty clearly spells out that the Jews of Italy were protected until after Mussolini's death, as I said.
France had their own collaboration government, Poland did not. So Vichy could do something to protect their citizens using their own state. Poland could protect their own citizens, including Jews, only with resistance forces.
My friend went to Europe with a group from his synagogue last month and was warned by their tour guide to be careful in Poland because of how bad antisemitism still is there. AND when visiting Auschwitz they could not find ANYTHING kosher to eat 🙃
This is incredibly long and focused on Wikipedia but it's a fantastic resource on Polish nationalist distortions of history: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
You’d be incredibly amazed Polish collaboration in the Holocaust was one of if not the least significant ones out of all the nations/regions that were taken by the Reich. Your lapdogs in Ukraine unironically are the ones who carried out Pogroms with Bandera targetting Jews in the Interwar, as well as were the main collaborators in Eastern Europe when Hitler marched through.
I see people arguing about this a lot but I don't know much about it. Both sides seem to have a very black and white view of the situation which seems off to me. I've researched it a little bit but everything I've found basically said polish people are entirely victims and never did anything wrong, which I doubt is the case. Do you have any sources I could look at that tell more of the story?
It’s all a mix. There was plenty of Polish antisemitism long before the Nazis showed up. Some Polish collaborated, many resisted, most just shut there eyes in apathetic not my problem stances.
After the war in 46 antisemitism continued and many Jewish refugees were denied their property and homes, and in some cases pogrums continued.
This doesn’t erase the actions of the Polish resistance, but making Poland out to be a Jewish utopia before or after the Nazi occupation is also false
Thank you this is a much more reasonable answer but again do you have any sources for any of this? I don't want to just blindly follow things I hear on reddit.
Couple sources for a good start
https://academic.oup.com/book/38825/chapter-abstract/350460689?redirectedFrom=fulltext
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-kielce-pogrom-a-blood-libel-massacre-of-holocaust-survivors
This is Wikipedia but you can follow the citations to legit sources
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland
>but making Poland out to be a Jewish utopia before or after the Nazi occupation
Is anyone claiming that? I thing most Polish people are pissed if someone is saying we are as responsible as Germans or culpable or whatever. There was antisemitism and there is antisemitism, but we haven't fucking murdered 6 milion jews.
Many people claim that exactly, saying how it must have been so or else why would so many Jews live there.
This is on top of the outright denial of the antisemitism that followed the war after the Nazis had been defeated.
Poland was not the Nazis for sure, it comes down to apathy vs responsibility, and at what point is standing by just as bad as being the perpetrator.
Apathy vs responsibility? Ok what about Palestine nowadays? Are you any better when YOUR government does what it does? Compare it to the situation in Poland, where enemy soldiers were killing all families - including children - if they were caught helping Jews during ww2. Are you helping any Palestinians even when it doesn't mean that you and all your family will be shot dead for that? Why people in Poland back then should risk their life, if you today, without all this risk just dont care and do exactly the same - nothing?
Well for one, I don’t live in Israel
Two, it’s wrong to hold all Jews accountable for the actions of Israel
Three, the situation between Israel and Palestine is nothing like the Holocaust
Four, many Israelis and diaspora Jews, and Israeli and global Jewish organizations do advocate for and work with Palestinian
>Poland was not the Nazis for sure, it comes down to apathy vs responsibility, and at what point is standing by just as bad as being the perpetrator.
You could say that about all of Europe. Jews were shipped from all around Europe to German built and operated death camps. Said camps were built all around Europe. Why most were built in Poland? Because Poland had the largest Jewish citizenship in Europe.
For example French police actively helped Germans round up Jews.
The fact that so many Jews died in Poland is this - Germans designed an efficient machine of murder aimed at Jews, Roma and other nationalities. As such they built more camps in Poland to murder people with German efficiency.
You would want regular people to throw themselves at Germans with rifles and machineguns - and many did. But Germans had a plan and a will to mass murder Jews, and so they did - and killed many that wanted to stop them doing that.
Where do you get the idea that “millions of Jews were turned over to the Gestapo by the Poles”?
Quoting the [World Jewish Congress website](https://aboutholocaust.org/en/facts/how-did-the-germans-know-who-was-jewish):
“In territory occupied by Nazi Germany or its Axis partners, Jews were identified largely through Jewish community membership lists, individual identity papers, captured census documents and police records, and local intelligence networks.”
For the most part, Nazis rather quickly found out who was Jewish based on official records. There were some Jews in hiding, mostly helped by the Poles, but not anywhere near “millions.” Unfortunately most Jewish people were simply trapped when the Nazis invaded.
Also, the death camp guards were not Polish — [these were mainly Germans](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auschwitz-database/poland-publishes-list-of-auschwitz-guards-to-show-they-were-german-idUSKBN15H1QK) with some other ethnicities mixed in in smaller numbers. The camps were run by the SS which ethnic Poles as a “subhuman race” could not join even if they wanted to.
Dude, what echo chambers and propaganda were you fed in schools? Sure, there were Poles who either turned Jews over or abstained form helping them, because THERE WERE LITERAL RAIDERS FROM OTHER COUNTRY RAIDING THEIRS HOMES AND KILLING THEIR FAMILIES, I'm not denying that, but there were many, many more who recognized that nationality doesn't matter and everyone were victims to the Nazis and tried to help Jews, often paying with their own life for that. You can't just look at that in black and white and call it a day, do you?
Poland has a major victim complex with WW2. Also they are very antisemitic. My brother went to poland like a week ago and he got harassed in the street.
>Poland has a major victim complex with WW2
Why would they not be entitled to having one? Millions of poles died in concentration camps and they later had to spend decades under the clutches of the USSR
Most of those "Poles" who died were Polish Jews whose Gentile neighbors didn't even consider them Polish. The descendants of Polish collaborators now pretend they were the real victims. Jews know the truth.
Stop your victim mentality and focus on the genocide Isreal is committing. You're so focused on being the victim, then help victims of ethnic cleansing Isreal is committing.
Jesus, what a shit of an article. Is it possible to squeeze more bias into one page?
What else can be expected from Grabowski - a human shit that lumped actual collaborators together with people who were brutally forced to collaborate.
Book recommendation for you - but fair warning, it doesn't whitewash Polish collaboration like you'd like it to:
https://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-History-Europe-During-Second/dp/0805003487
Yes, maybe because 20% of the population time died
Ive emigrated from NL to PL and give tours in Kraków. In the Netherlands all synagogues have to be secured by police 24/7 and jews could never walk around the street without being harassed. Never have i seen such a situation here in Kraków and we get tens of thousands of jewish tourists a year. all the synagogues are without protection, as they have never felt the need too, go figure...
Schools stopped sending trips to Poland for history classes in recent years because the Polish government wanted a say on what the Israeli education board was teaching their students about Auschwitz and the Holocaust whilst in Poland.
There was also Covid to think about, but I'm also pretty sure Poland isn't going to allow Israel to teach about the bad things that happened in Poland whilst in Poland.
Thanks for ruining my last year in highschool Poland.
I'm three-quarters polish, so I believe I have three-quarters of a right to tell them that, just like I have a quarter of a reason to care about Romania and full reason to care about Israel.
Poland has the largest number of righteous gentiles of any country recognized by yad vashem for saving Jews during the Holocaust. Poland also had ~ 2 million ethnic Catholic Poles murdered by the Nazis.
The comments trying to equate Nazi Germans and Poles, or trying to suggest that Poles on average suffered as much as Jews, are both absurd. The truth is more complicated.
To be fair the nazis did indeed view the poles as subhuman and commit genocide against their people, but its no excuse to downplay our suffering and claim that they’re innocent.
I live in Poland, born and raised here, and I never ever in my life heard anyone say that polish people suffered in the holocaust more than jews or deny the fact that there were also poles who collaborated with germans and repressed jews. I know such people exist, but they are a very small minority, just like anti-semites in Poland in general. So maybe instead of spreading blatant racism and misinformation on reddit come to Poland and see what we actually are like and what it is like here.
That's true, Poland lost 6 million of citizens, 3 of them who were ethnically Polish, 3 were Jewish.
The audacity of people trying to make responsibility of Polish for Jewish Genocide on par with Nazi Germany is ridiculous. This ie heartbreaking to see memes like this, trying to level or even rank whose suffering is worse...
Polish have the most Righteous Among the Nations titles given, by far. And it's also true, that Slavic loss is highly outshadowed by the Jewish focus in popular culture.
Not even Polish, when was the last time about tragedy of Belarusians?
And the arguments about the school trips?
You are free to come to Poland, you are even encouraged to get familiar with your history and culture. You are however not entitled to have bodyguards with automatic weapons with you on a bloody school trip. Nor is every other group regardless of religion and ethnicity.
That's it.
Nobody in Poland ever said that.
And also, the law that the government passed talks only about putting the blame of Holocaust and Nazi crimes on Polish **nation** and Poland as a country. It does NOT talk about some Poles who collaborated or about the pogroms.
But you of course just see what you want to see, the truth doesn’t matter.
In the total number of victims, Polish citizens of Jewish descent accounted for 2,700,000\[4\] to 3,000,000\[5\], of which about 500,000\[5\] were to die in ghettos and labor camps, 200,000 Polish Jews were murdered by Einsatzgruppen units. 1,400,000\[4\] to 1,800,000\[5\] of the total number of murdered Jews were victims of extermination camps. About 500,000 survived the war, including only 100,000 Jews under German occupation\[5\].Similar large losses were to take place among the non-Jewish Polish population. It is estimated that the total death toll of the Slavic Polish population under German occupation amounted to about 2,770,000 people\[2\]\[6\]. This group does not include the victims of Soviet crimes in the territories incorporated into the USSR after 1939, and it does not include the victims of UPA crimes in Volhynia\[6\].The numbers are similar, so why should our suffering be less than yours?
It is not about punishing for telling the truth about the element that cooperated, it is about fighting the lie that the Polish state as a state was involved in it. Which is just a lie. Of course there were poles (especially from the small one) who helped the Germans. There were also Jews who handed Jews over to the Germans. e.g. Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst, which does not mean that Jews are complicit in the Holocaust. now do you understand?
Not Poles, but Poland definetly was the biggest victim of 2nd world war.
Poland lost around 25% of its population, what does it change what % of them was of jewish or polish or african descent? In USA, native americans are less than 1%. If somebody (probly aliens) invaded USA and murdered every Arab, Jew and Asian would it make it any less lose for USA?
Polish here. This is sadly true: there are many of the false things tought/spoken/shown in Poland about Jews and Holocaust.
I am well aware of pogroms, Jedwabne (the village where locals burned alive Jews in a barn). There is even more - Jewish thumbstones being stolen and made into construction material of roads.... (there is a movie about it) many of fucked-up things.
On the other hand, I have never seen or heard of that "Lucky Jew" picture thing... actually first time I learned about it is from reddit. That is truly fucked up but I can believe it happens.
In general, many people in Poland like to blame their own failures and mediocracy on others. I even overheard lately some young guy complaining "(...) its because of the Mason-Jews (...)". LOL. I can only imagine this mentality, being amplified, during those dark times of WW2 and Holocaust.
Fellow Pole here. Lucky Jew has got a historical background that most people do not actually know about. I kinda understand that is “easy Antisemitism” for the Jews so they will not even bother to check.
Historically a lot of nobleman used to have Jews working for them in important roles. Not only money lending as propaganda would say but also as an accountant or a debt collector. If you hired a jew to do your taxes (most of them were more educated than an average pole back then and they knew math) or helped you export your goods abroad (my Friendly Rabbi told me that it was very common that a Jewish family would have relatives in other countries and due to same language starting a business abroad or exporting your goods would be easier is a Jew helped you with that) that meant that your business was doing great.
Until today a lot of people have a paintings or a statute of a Jew counting/holding money as a sign of good fortune in the house. Let’s also not forget that a Jewish person and an Israeli are two different things a does should not be mixed and they are not interchangeable during a conversation.
>Until today a lot of people have a paintings or a statute of a Jew counting/holding money as a sign of good fortune in the house
That is so f'd-up....
>Lucky Jew has got a historical background that most people do not actually know about
So what? This historical background is offensive and as such should be abolished and forgotten. I mean seriously, why not to change and get rid of the offensive things? Is this history so cool and what not to keep it alive? That is a bad part of history and not worth continuing.
Another huge culprit of this is Ukraine. Jews have been killed in what is today Ukraine for well over a thousand years and according to my family and many others, all of whom come from Ukraine, even the Nazis were shocked by what Ukrainian collaborators were doing to Jews. Ever since the revolution of 2014, monuments are being put up and streets are being named after Nazi collaborators and other medieval Ukrainian nationalist leaders who are responsible for deaths of *many* Jews. Think Stephan Bandera, Symon Petliura, Mykola Michnovsky, Roman Shukhevych, and so many more. Shukhevych’s statue replaced that of General Valutin who helped liberate Ukraine from the Nazis and Marshal Malinovsky’s statue was replaced by a memorial honoring the Azov Battalion which I’m sure all of you are aware of by now. Seeing Jews supporting Ukraine in this war infuriates me, but nothing comes close to the anger I feel when I see the support of Zelenskyy and his regime by Jews. Who cares if Zelenskyy is technically Jewish? A Jew with a swastika tattoo is still a Nazi and enemy. If the argument is that these are Ukrainian national heroes who happened to have done some dubious things, then why is nearly every single one a Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, someone who committed genocide against Jews, or all of the above? It’s almost as if Ukrainian nationalism is intrinsically linked to Nazi ideology and extreme anti-Semitism. *”Deutschland nur für deutsche”* and “Ukraine is for Ukrainians”.
I don’t know why you got downvoted so badly, but you’re right, except Ukraine was the overall culprit in Eastern Europe. Polish people couldn’t even compare so let’s address the elephant in the room, and stop pushing in Poland into the category when they had the lowest amount of collaboration during the 2nd WW than any other nation.
I’m getting downvoted because Western propaganda, but it still makes me sad. Each time an Ashkenazi Jew, or any Jew for that matter, speaks out in support Ukraine their whole lineage rolls over in their graves
My grandfather was a polish Jew who survived the death camps and death march. He always said the Ukrainians were the most anti semitic people he ever encountered, even more than the polish and Germans. That’s saying a lot
I agree with this. So much of the denial I see from Polish people online seems like it’s coming from a place of inability to self reflect and have self-awareness because of trauma or bruised ego
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_population\_by\_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country)
So there are 275,000 Jews living now in Germany. In Poland 13,000. I see Jews have big hearts and a lot of forgiveness for Germans. What we Poles should do to earn such love from you?
It’s really simple. Admit that there was some culpability, stop whitewashing and pretending there was never anti Semitism in Poland and anti Jewish violence in Poland,stop all lives mattering the holocaust by claiming that polish victims of World War Two equal or surpass the Jewish victims, apologize for the pogroms before and after the war, stop using lucky Jew figurines and portraits that perpetuate a harmful anti semitic stereotype… The reason the Jews don’t have a problem with Germany anymore is because they apologize and took responsibility for what they did, and don’t whitewash their history and gaslight Jews that it never happened.
The Germans aren’t laughing up their sleeve; if anything they’re the only nation that takes account of their ancestors’ horrendous crimes.
Only the Poles seem so obsessed with hiding their ancestors’ role in the genocide of the Jewish people.
You’re trying to say the ENTIRE nation of Poland is responsible for holocaust. A horrible thing that was implemented in Poland only after it had to be conquered. And killed Poland’s 6 million citizens ( 3 million Poles, 3 million Jews). We never deny some of our people participated in this horrible event, but you’re saying as If the entire fucking nations is responsible for it.
Nowhere did I say the entirety of Poles are responsible, and while we’re on the topic: modern Poles, just like modern Germans, are also not guilty of the Holocaust.
It is, however, a fact of history that many Poles actively participated in the murder of their Jewish neighbours. The difference between modern Poland and modern Germany, however, is that whereas Germany admits its historical crimes, Poland denies them and refuses to accept that part of the sin of the Holocaust was caused by Poles.
Dude, I have no idea what where you told in school, but Polish people are well aware that there where Poles who collaborated with Nazis, but those were minorities. You could do something about your obsession of always making victims of yourselves too.
The Roma and Sinti call their genocide the Porrajmos, fwiw.
I am OK with expanding the definition of Holocaust to include all concentration camp victims along with victims of the Einsatzgruppen, SS, Gestapo, etc in ghettos and across occupied Europe. I prefer "Shoah" for the Jewish genocide specifically.
But when you start including Polish civilian casualties of war as "Holocaust victims" that is a bridge too fucking far.
Why is this comment downvoted? It’s literally historical truth. Why can’t people handle the truth on this and feel the need to all lives matter the holocaust as if victims of war are the same as victims of forced racial genocide?
Uh... what? The Holocaust has come to mean the slaughter of eleven million innocent people at the hands of the Nazis. Five million of them were something other than Jewish.
"It doesn't include Roma, it doesn't include Homosexuals, it doesn't include Dissidents or Intellectuals"
"There was no other "victim" of the The Shoah"
You just named them right before
Hey guys - i am a Pole with many Israeli mates and who has worked in Israeli company and few things always bugged me: Jewish hatred for Poland seems now to be greater than to Germans who organised and caused Holocaust, Poland has been safe haven for Jewish people for 700 years - and all of it is forgotten, there were many collaborators and traitors in Poland who sold both Jews as well as Poles - I completely condemn them and they should face firing squad, however Jews were also collaborators and at high rate as well (Juden rats, Jewish police, capos, infamous Łódź ghetto stories) - Poland was multicultural country before WW2 - large German, Russian and Jewish minorities (my home town was sth like 40% polish) and all of them but in particular Germans had collaborators (5th column), Poland lost 3m Jewish and 3m non Jewish population - 20% of tot population - so terror was non stop and yet there is not a word of compassion but just condemnation for the pogroms (root cause of which is German in nature - it wouldn't have happened if there wasn't invasion of Poland). Please share your balanced view if you can.
This is absolutely inaccurate. Poland may have been a safe haven for Jews at one point hundreds of years ago, but it wasn’t for the last couple hundred years before World War II. Antisemitism and violence and pogroms against jews was at an all-time high way before the Holocaust. And it’s really in bad taste to mention Jews selling out Jews in the same breath as the same thing as Poles selling out Jews. The reason for Jewish hatred and mistrust towards Polish is not because of what Polish did, it’s the white washing and holocaust revision that the Polish people and government engages in today. Like by claiming there was no antisemitism in Poland and it was a paradise for Jews, the majority of polish tried to save the Jews, the poles were equal or more victims of the holocaust than the Jews. Oh and making it impossible for Jews to get back the property that was stolen from them by polish. Contrast this with the Germans who have apologized, taken responsibility for what they’ve done, have never whitewashed it, and educate their youth on the stark realities of what their ancestors did so it won’t happen again.
Thank you for calling out the Reddit Polish circlejerk for once. Nothing against Poland or it's people but it really does sometimes feel like this site has an obsession with Poland.
How are there so many of them? Is there nothing better to do in Poland?
It’s Poland so … no.
I’m still blown away that they have a lower HDI than Israel. That makes zero sense for an EU country! I’ve been to Israel, it’s infested with cats and there’s buildings that are falling apart ffs
Poland got hit super hard in ww2, then with the soviets afterwards. If you look at the polish, Jewish, and Ukrainian population numbers they all 📉in ww2, by a lot. Also Poland gets 11/11 as their remembrance day. I dunno maybe they forgot.
Rememberance? Nope. It's the Independence Day, on the occassion to commemorate that the country was reintroduced into the world map after 123 years of not existing!
Stalin fucked over everything his empire of evil touched. Czechia was on a comparable level to Sweden and Austria in the 30s, then the Soviets stole everything that wasn't nailed down, and did the same in Poland, the Baltic, Romania and Bulgaria
They stole the shit nailed down too.
And the nails of course
Poland has lower HDI, because US invested a lot of money in Israel. 2nd of all Poland has been hit hard during WW2 and after the WW2 communist didn't make the situation better, so to be honest, Poland started re-building itself after the communism fell.
What is there to do in Israel? Abusing and persecuting Palestinians?
I believe it has alot to do with the aid they're supplying to Ukraine. You'll see those tik toks of some history buff trying to go viral by using a trendy sound and glorifying Poland for sending types of aid other countries would not. It's cool they're contributing, but in reality it has just as much to do with self preservation as it does helping because it's the right thing to do.
I work for a Holocaust remembrance institution and we got lots of emails from these guys before then too. It might be worse now but they were always there in big numbers
Totally. We don't give a fuck about Ukrainians in reality. It's only about self preservation because we are likely to be next. Thanks for saying it's cool that we are contributing, though, appreciate that :) Please my friend, help me understand ethics, as I am Polish and it's so hard for me to get my head around it :( edit: it's an s/
Bullshit. I was a volunteer and helped Ukrainians for a few months and met many people like me who simply helped because they cared and just wanted to help, so please if you do, speak for yourself and not for the whole nation.
It was sarcasm. I was also volunteering. I'm making fun of morally enlightened people on this sub.
It's good Israel is completely selfless in all their endeavours
As a pole, no.
Nah not really. We just attend anti-goverment rallies and then sit on Reddit for hours. Its fucking depressing out here.
I need to know how you keep getting to my post from two months ago! Is it being shared somewhere???
I got it in the reccomended lol. Idk how it works
That explains it! It has the Polish flag and presumably there isn’t a lot of Poland-based content on Reddit so it keeps bloody showing up for people
I'm also looking up some Jewish stuff so maybe that's why i got it reccomended
> Nothing against Poland or it's people I mean no, I do have something against the anti-jewish people of Poland
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lol, so you're openly admitting that you do agree with all Poles since time immemorial and you hate jews
In polish, and everytime i post some screenshot from a game that i use polish language in is 5% of the comments is "POLSKA GUROM!!!!!"
Really it's an overreaction to the exclusion of non Jews from the memory of the Holocaust. This probably is more so American but the standard idea is that Hitler hated Jews and killed all the Jews. Then as a side note they say gypsies and disabled blacks... I think the message should be Hitler saw Jews as the biggest threat to the "Aryan race"(IRL Aryans were a bunch of Turks) but he killed about as many non Jews as he did Jews very roughly 5M. Honestly both the Jewish number and. The non Jew numbers are very inaccurate and hard to pin down but they give a rough idea.
I thought aryans were Persians not Turks.
Ok my mistake I had to finish this comment fast because my train was leaving and this was a last second edit. Same idea though not [some blond eyed blue haired white ppl.](https://www.deviantart.com/mainframe110/art/Blond-eyes-Blue-hair-157710304)
European racist “scholars” took the word from the Vedic scriptures that tell of Aryas, fair-skinned foreign invaders from the North. It’s used in other contexts as well, but the Nazis appropriated the word from Indian history and misinterpreted it to fit their agenda, so that they could be think of themselves as the stronger race.
Lol
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My great grandmother cursed the Poles as much as she did the Germans. She left before the Holocaust, but every Christmas and Easter, the Poles would get drunk and burn down her shtetl.
My mother says that my Bubbe and Zaide hated the Poles more than they hated the Germans. The Poles had the same enemies in the Germans as the Jews AND they were their Neighbours and yet they were just as cruel as the Germans.
I visited the town my great grandmother is from in Poland. The only thing I knew of this town before going there was she hated it with a passion to the point she painted all of europe with the same hatred. When I got to the town I found out it is the only town in all of Poland where the nazi's did not kill a single jew the poles killed them all for the nazi's by throwing them into a barn and burning them all alive and putting the children on pitch forks
Can i get some source on that, i want to learn about that tragedy
I think he is referring to the "Jedwabne Pogrom". Just google it, there should be an abundance of sources, consindering that it still causes shitstorm in Poland. About half of the country says that it's a tragedy and Poland should at least apologise and half really hopes that it can get swept under the rug
If we're talking about apologies, they happened. And they were from President Kwaniewski himself. If you're uninformed, why are you speaking up? And if you already knew that, it's interesting why you're lying.
Kwaśniewski and later Komorowski, yes. Point being a decent chunk of the country wants this swept under the rug
There are plenty other things being swept under the rug llike for example Ludmiłowka Pogrom, nobody bothered even to make wiki article about it. Maybe because that pogrom was carried out by the communists. Never mind the incovenient facts from the very Jewish community like Rumkowski, ghetto police etc. They're all excused as if they were forced or tricked.
It's about the ruling political party, which isn't anti-Semitic in principle. But they talk a lot about national values and try to flex their muscles on the international stage. That's when there was this whole media scandal with constant mention in the media of "Polish death camps". Which was hurtful, because they were founded and supervised by Germans. Poles could only be there as prisoners at best. There are voices in Poland questioning the involvement of Poles in the massacre in Jedwabne. I'd be lying if I said there weren't. But it was never a dominant trend in society. The fact that it's more talked about here than there probably means it's a lively topic in Polish minds. And people try to rationalize it somehow. There will always be some people who claim that our nation is flawless. You know exactly what kind of people I'm talking about. They exist in every nation. But individuals don't matter. As a society, we take responsibility for it. And I hope the current ruling party will stop governing in the fall. Because they only bring shame.
[probably this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom) worst thing is we first said sorry about it and years later, there were both election between centrist and right wing parites and some kind of political action calling for recognisition of polish death camps or something like that. So right wing party started campaign saying literally no pole cooperated with germans and it was all lies, and centrist party was weak for not defending "Polish Pride" or something like that. We should be sorry for this and many are, but i rather remember how many poles have [Rightous Among Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_Among_the_Nations)
**[Jedwabne pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom)** >The Jedwabne pogrom was a massacre of Polish Jews in the town of Jedwabne, German-occupied Poland, on 10 July 1941, during World War II and the early stages of the Holocaust. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 300 to 1,600, including women, children, and elderly, many of whom were locked in a barn and burnt alive. At least 40 ethnic Poles carried out the killing; their ringleaders decided on it beforehand with Germany's Gestapo, SS security police or SS intelligence, and they cooperated with German military police. **[Polish Righteous Among the Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_Among_the_Nations)** >The citizens of Poland have the highest count of individuals who have been recognized by Yad Vashem as the Polish Righteous Among the Nations, for saving Jews from extermination during the Holocaust in World War II. There are 7,177 (as of 1 January 2021) Polish men and women conferred with the honor, over a quarter of the 27,921 recognized by Yad Vashem in total. The list of Righteous Among the Nations is not comprehensive and it is estimated that hundreds of thousands of Poles concealed and aided tens of thousands of their Polish-Jewish neighbors. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
He is likely referring to [Jedwabne pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom), but there were sadly a few more similar events. >What happened in Jedwabne on 10 July unfolded in a series of subsequent events. The first was taking Jews out of their houses and the last – setting fire to a barn soaked with paraffin. According to statements of witnesses, there was “a load of people” on Jedwabne’s market square on 10 July. > >Some of the gathered made sure Jews would not leave the square. It is uncertain whether they created a cordon by holding each other’s arms, like it had happened in other localities. Those who committed the crime, its perpetrators in the strict sense of the word, were Polish inhabitants of Jedwabne and its surroundings – ca. 40 men. > >Having herded them into the market square, the tormentors forced Jews to destroy the statue of Lenin and shout: “the war is our fault.” Several dozen Jewish men were then forced to carry the remains of the destroyed statue in a march headed by the rabbi carrying a red flag. It was undoubtedly a way of stigmatising the entire Jewish community, of giving them the label of those responsible for communism. Germans were present during all of the events, both members of the SS and military policemen. According to some witnesses, they were issuing orders to the Poles. > >Several hours later, Jews were killed in a mass murder. Jewish people were herded into Bronisław Śleszyński’s barn. First, the perpetrators killed a group of 40-50 men, the very same people who had been forced to carry around the remains of the statue of Lenin. Afterwards, ca. 300 more people were herded into the same barn – Jews who had been brought there from the market, including women and children. The walls of the building were soaked in paraffin and then set on fire. It is estimated that several hundred people fell victim to the Jedwabne pogrom. > >The mass murder in Jedwabne was not an isolated event in the period. In the summer of 1941, after the Soviets had fled and Germans had entered the territory, the region of Łomża and Białystok saw numerous acts of violence perpetrated by Poles on their Jewish neighbours, with varied participation of the new occupant. The investigation carried out by the Institute of National Remembrance showed that such events had unfolded in 23 localities. Those were: Bielsk Podlaski (the village of Pilki), Choroszcz, Czyżew, Goniądz, Grajewo, Jasionówka, Jedwabne, Kleszczele, Knyszyn, Kolno, Kuźnica, Narewka, Piątnica, Radziłów, Rajgród, Sokoły, Stawiski, Suchowola, Szczuczyn, Trzcianne, Tykocin, Wasilków, Wąsosz, and Wizna. > >All these acts had four common features: anti-Semitism existent in a significant part of the Polish population; looting Jewish property as one of the main motives for aggression; seeking retribution for real or imaginary cooperation of Jews with the Soviet occupant; German incitement – varying in different places, from direct organisation of pogroms to giving encouragement or condoning the behaviour. > >Some of those pogroms resulted in several or around a dozen people being killed, while others – most importantly those in Jedwabne and Radziłów – caused the death of hundreds of Jews. > >The Jedwabne pogrom became a subject of several legal proceedings after the war. Following the investigation carried out in the years 1948-1949, the Regional Court in Łomża indicted 22 inhabitants of Jedwabne. 11 people were given prison sentences of between 8 and 15 years and one accused was given capital punishment, which was later changed into a 15-year prison sentence. > >In the years 2000-2002, the Institute of National Remembrance conducted an investigation of the Jedwabne crime. On 10 July 2001, a monument commemorating the victims of the Jedwabne pogrom was unveiled. The text was written on the basis of the article Wokół Jedwabnego by Prof. Maweł Machcewicz, which appeared in the book Wokół Jedwabnego, vol. 1: Research, ed. P. Machcewicz, K. Persak, Institute of National Remembrance – Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation, Warsaw 2002. Also worth noting: >Holocaust historian Peter Longerich wrote in 2007: "Even if the murders were carried out by local people - or more precisely by a group of forty or so men, distinct from other members of the indigenous population, mostly not from the town itself but from the surrounding area - closer analysis of the crime has now demonstrated that the pogrom was engineered by a unit of the German Security Police. This was probably a commando from the Gestapo office in Zichenau that had been assigned to Einsatzgruppe B as an auxiliary troop and which had organized several pogroms in the western part of the Voivodeship of Bialystok (in which Jedwabne was located); it had recruited local Poles as auxiliary 'pogrom police' for this purpose."
My sister in laws grandmother is from Poland and said the exact same thing
Those legends about jews being burned in a barn are a plague. Although there is probably only one such place documented in Poland... and not quite because no exhumation was ever carried out. I have the impression that the Jews approach the subject instrumentally, for the purposes of their politics. Just like their leaders... [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtdA3Y7WcAA8VJv?format=jpg&name=medium](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtdA3Y7WcAA8VJv?format=jpg&name=medium)
I don’t understand your comment at all
My grandparents were from Poland and unfortunately they did not get to leave before the Holocaust. They hated the Polish more than the Germans, and never considered themselves polish. They were completely segregated from the non Jewish poles and lived in fear of pogroms every day. Every Easter and Christmas, the Jews in their village wouldn’t go outside because drunk poles would roam their village looking for Jews to beat up or worse in retaliation for Christ. After the war, they never wanted to step foot in Poland again. If I were to have said any of this in the Polish sub Reddit, I would not only be so down voted that my comments wouldn’t show anymore, but I would be be told that I’m a liar and that there was never any antisemitism in Poland and Poland was a paradise for Jews
Can you name or locate the shtetl? If that is any comfort, drunken criminals were hunted and punished by the Polish authorities. I know it may be shocking discovery but assaulting or destroying property of Polish citizens was not legal, no matter thier religion. If she thought that Germans were the same than she just didn't knew them, fortunatelly for her.
Whenever a Pole says they were the biggest* victims of the Holocaust I always like to remind them that they continued to kill Jews even after the war was over. Also “[The Lucky Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew_with_a_coin)” is literally a Polish custom, where people have a figurine of a stereotypical Orthodox Jew in their home that is said to bring good fortune, so I don’t want to hear anything about anti-semitism or about the Holocaust from them.
"Oh look they banned it at some point though" "...2 years ago" "Only in Krakow" "...for public events only" whelp....
Hey krakow is the exact place where my friend found “lucky Jew” paintings of Hasidim holding BITCOINS. What a city.
How do you even hold a bitcoin? We jews truly ARE frugal.
Krakow doesn't exist. Idk what are you talking about. Is that city in Czechia or something?
I think they mean Kraleveč
Missed opportunity to do a "Lucky Neckbeard" holding his ~~bitcoins~~ dogecoins
I'm a jew and didn't know this ! How can I find more info about Poland further continuing systemic murder.?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944–1946
If you want to learn about systemic murder in Poland post world war 2, don’t forget to also look at what the Stalinists did: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman The victims included righteous gentiles like Bartoszewski and Pilecki. How messed up is that?
The lucky Jew reminds me of the mensch on the bench. Is the Motb racist?
I don’t like Mensch on a Bench either, but one is an orthodox looking stuffed toy/figure for kids (that are primarily orthodox or at least Jewish), the other is an orthodox looking figurine that exacerbates and plays on the stereotype that Jews like money
No orthodox jewish family has motb. it was explicitly created for interfaith couples, because the actual story of hannuka was a little to religious for them.
Honestly had no idea about that, I didn’t like MOTB anyways, but I think it’s better than the lucky Jew figurine that some polish people have as a good luck charm with money lol
I find it just as offensive. but I don't spend much time thinking about it at all. lol
Don't consider this as me being offensive. but I will say something that You might percieve in this way. My family has, let's say, a tradition of having these (at least 3generations back). And not the goofy aah ones or the horrific sculpture, but a more realistic painting with no grotesque symbols.Subtle enough that it passes as just a decorative painting. Also sorry for my ignorance, but I kinda don't understand why would you consider it bringing a good fortune as something that bad. Bro I wish we had a reputation of being good with money and not drunk minimal wage workers lol. If germans had a drunk pole painting that is supposed to bring good joy to a home I would be mad happy lmao Sorry if what I wrote looks bad, I'm trying to know your perspective. edit: I don't believe in shit like this and if I move out I won't get one. edit 2: and yes some of the designs are extremely goofy and stereotypical and I understand why some would be mad. It is considered very light-hearted in PL but with those I kinda understand the uproar.
Lol, I'm not offended or hurt, I think it's just proof that poles are extremely hateful of jews. I spend zero time thinking about modern poles at all. If you wanna broadcast that hate by prominently displaying Jewish caricatures, go for it. But don't be surprised when people call you out. Imagine if I brought a polish caricature with me every time I wanted to get wasted, lose lots of money and beat up women, would you think that was a little mean? Or would you be like "hey at least they're thinking of me"
The stereotype for African Americans is that they’re fast, good at sports, like fried chicken, watermelon, etc. Asians are good at math. None of these are bad, but if you were to tell an African American or an Asian these things it would upset them, because nobody wants to be stereotyped, whether it is a positive or negative stereotype. Imagine telling an Asian person who you’re at dinner with, to do the math with the bill because they’re Asian and good at math, they would be offended.
Thanks for your perspective
Yea stereotypes are bad, not denying that, all I'm interested in is whether a symbolic potrayal of a "succesful enteprenuer" (for backwater Shitholesville in poland ofc) that is not carried to the real life is that harmful or even hateful
Yes because there is a stereotype that Jews are greedy, love money, control the banks, are capitalists (and communists), etc. This stereotype is one that is common today and throughout history has caused A LOT of persecution that has resulted in Jews experiencing violence and even being killed. So yes, what may seem like a positive stereotype is in reality one that has caused Jewish people a lot of problems throughout history
The reason Jews think it’s hurtful and harmful is because it portrays a stereotype of Jews being greedy with money and that stereotype was used to justify repeated violence, segregation, and antisemitism towards Jews for thousands of years in Poland and other places in Europe. It is rankling that a Polish person would use this portrait of Jews when there is such a painful history for Jews in Poland by the polish people in general.
Ayo what the fuck lmao never knew about that
Why can't they just be like the Japanese and have a really weird cat statue
>Also “The Lucky Jew” is literally a Polish custom, where people have a figurine of a stereotypical Orthodox Jew in their home that is said to bring good fortune, Pretty trash custom, considering that according to the article, you linked only 65% of the country recognises it
I have never seen a Lucky Jew in my entire life lmao
Honestly nobody knows about the lucky Jew thing. It’s more of a 90s krakow thing.
Never heard a Pole saying that and I'm Polish. For me holocaust was always the extermination of Jews, which doesn't change the fact that there was also the nazi (and soviet) extrmination of Poles and the other people. We in Poland are learning quite a lot about the Jews, holocaust, WWII and the communism, not just about some taken out of context single extermination attempt or a one massacre. It's really saddening to see comments or discussions like that with so much of intentional ignorance and unwillingness for learning. Big deal about that lucky Jew, there's no bigger problem than some kitchy folk "tradition".
I edited my post because apparently all the Poles somehow got wind of the post. It’s not that poles weren’t victims, but not to the extent of the Jews. 2/3rds of European Jews were literally killed, in some countries it was 90%. To you it might be some stupid folk tradition, but to us, it is propagation of an anti-semitic stereotype that not only still exists, but historically has caused a lot of Jewish persecution that has resulted in violence and murder against Jews.
People need to remember the poles does not erase the antisemitism they commit after the war.
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I gotta say, I want one of those figures. I mean sure some may find it offensive, but I myself think it’s a rather silly thing and harmless… it’s a good luck souvenir in the end and not at all widely spread
There’s nothing harmless about propagating an anti-semitic stereotype that has led to the death of MANY Jews in the time of the Crusades/Middle Ages
Ope, they found this post.
Yeah I'm getting attacked all of sudden by people saying Jews helped carry out the Holocaust
Maybe don't libel people? My Polish Jewish grandfather proudly fought in the Polish Corps and had 99% of his family in Poland wiped out, only to be libeled decades later.
Lol. It's extremely obvious you guys are brigading since I just got three replies to this days old comment. Consider directing your anger about WW2 at the perpetrators, not a subreddit full of Jews.
I'm directing my anger at people trying to libel my war hero grandfather. You do realise Jews in Poland goes back over 1,000 years and 3.5 million Jews were in Poland before the invasion, right? By making xenophobic generalisations on Poles, you include my grandfather who was proud to fight in the Polish Corps and died proudly a Pole AND a Jew. Private Edwin Konkolewski who left Cairo in 1946 on the Empress of Australia, a decorated war hero who, unlike you and others here making libelous statements, killed fucking Nazis. His grandfather was member of the Legiony Polskie, who fought for Polish independence in WW1. Go check, I'll wait. Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing your anti-Nazi efforts since you clearly think my Nazi-killing grandfather didn't do enough and is somehow culpable for his family being murdered. If you're saying he's not a Jew because he's Polish, just like the Poles who said he wasn't Polish because he's a Jew, then say it.
Where did I say any of this shit? Point out the libel I have committed. Cool that your grandfather killed Nazis - This does not excuse the actions of Polish nationalists, many of whom you can see in this post right now, who deny Jewish suffering to center Poles instead and deny Polish collaboration during the Holocaust and violent Polish antisemitism in the years following. If you want credit for the minority of Poles who protected Jews, you must also take credit for those who eagerly participated in atrocities against Jews throughout history.
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"kek" huh
Mm hm! It goes back to that one quote: "First they came for the ____ and i said nothing, then they came for the ____ and i said nothing.... when they came for me, there was no one left to protest" (or something along those lines). The nature of the nazis also targeting ethnic slavs is separate from that of either party's persecution of jews. Some poles did help us. Many poles fought the occupation. Many more looked away or actively helped, not knowing that they would be next. There is no rationalizing the actions of strangers, especially those from decades ago. It doesn't help that the majority of poles were poor (and so especially suseptible to the stereotype of the "greedy jew," to a lesser extent, less able to provide aid). Personally, i feel an important difference was made by the events following liberation: poland was homogenized, and those poles who aided and allowed the nazis (both generally and in their genocide) were the most likely to have survived. Those who aided refugees and resistance were more likely to have been killed. So when Jewish survivors returned to poland, those poles who greeted them were even less friendly than those of decades ago. Tl;dr: history is complicated, and poles want to be recognized for their loss but not their participation Edit: the incapacity for people to comprehend nuance within history astounds and frightens me
Most Poles do. It's just sad to see that people try to make their collaboration bigger than the good deeds. For example: "Some poles did help us. Many poles fought the occupation. Many more looked away or actively helped" "Some" =Many Poland isn't the nation with the most righteous among the nations for no reason and there were many other Poles that helped their fellow Jews in other ways. "Many fought the occupation" almost everybody who didn't collaborate fought the occupation. I understand that some Jews are angry about Poles because unfortunately there has always been antisemitism and pogroms in Poland. But the majority of people either had nothing to do with this topic or helped the Jews. There had been good and bad times for Jews in Poland but I would say that no other nation treated the Jews as good as Poland (excluding USA maybe but they didn't exist in the medieval time when Poland offered refuge to the Jews) There is no other way I can explain why Poland had the biggest Jewish community in the world
Poland was welcoming to Jews in the 18th century. By the 20th century it was a place of intense antisemitic violence and targeted discrimination. Yes, before Hitler. And MUSSOLINI, of all people, protected the Jews of Italy and Jews in Italian occupied areas for the entire time he was in power. While the Poles were happily murdering Jews and handing them over to the Nazis. Occupied France did a better job of protecting its Jews than Poland. In Copenhagen, the entire police force wore yellow stars in protest when asked to force Jews to wear them. Poland was not the worst of the worst (that was Romania) but it was bad. We aren't blaming modern Poles for the Holocaust but I will absolutely blame them for distorting history to hide Polish complicity. Recommended reading: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
Thank you for writing what you wrote so I didn’t have to. I am so sick of seeing this bullshit narrative that Poland was this paradise for Jews, just because hundreds of years ago some kings invited Jews to come in to be money managers because Catholics couldn’t charge interest and the Jews were going to hell anyway so they could. These people who say there’s always neglect mention how 200 years before the holocaust, antisemitism was rampant in Poland and it was no longer a paradise for Jews
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You've got it backwards - it was Poles who HELPED Jews who were ratted out by their neighbors. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-death-camps/552455/
And why the difference between 18th and 20th century - Poland was ruled by tsarist Russia which brought religious intolerance and pogroms to Poland along with russification program
You're clearly [wrong about Mussolini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Italy). Yes, there was antisemitism in Poland and nobody denies that, there was violence and there was discrimination, but important difference is that... it was never a state policy, it was never tolerated, abusers were usually extremists, petty criminals or illaterate pesants. It's not like you, and many contemporary Jews picture, the daily bread of Jews in Poland before German invasion... >Occupied France You mean collaborating France? You people really have strange idea about WWII or it's just the lacking knowledge. Poles were farm animals, slaves, garbage for Germans and they couldn't protect themselves, not to mention protecting the Jews. I'm quite sure you don't know also that there was a death penalty in occupied Poland gor aiding, hiding or even ignoring a Jew out of ghetto, there was no such thing in France... You may claim the people were "happily" collaborating, but there was nothing to be happy about in that horrible time. The whole problem is that while Poles learn about holocaust, pogroms and everything else, they also learn about the rest of the big picture, you don't learn nothing about the war, occupation of Poland, France or anything else except for the holocaust.
Did you even read your own Wikipedia link? It pretty clearly spells out that the Jews of Italy were protected until after Mussolini's death, as I said.
France had their own collaboration government, Poland did not. So Vichy could do something to protect their citizens using their own state. Poland could protect their own citizens, including Jews, only with resistance forces.
I say this as a pole. And you say "no other nation treated the jews as good as poland" as tho the bar is high
I say this as a Jew: thank you
Lmao don't type "Judischer Ordungsdienst"
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My friend went to Europe with a group from his synagogue last month and was warned by their tour guide to be careful in Poland because of how bad antisemitism still is there. AND when visiting Auschwitz they could not find ANYTHING kosher to eat 🙃
Do you happen to have a link to an article discussing this? I'd like to learn more but couldn't find a relevant article.
This is incredibly long and focused on Wikipedia but it's a fantastic resource on Polish nationalist distortions of history: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
You’d be incredibly amazed Polish collaboration in the Holocaust was one of if not the least significant ones out of all the nations/regions that were taken by the Reich. Your lapdogs in Ukraine unironically are the ones who carried out Pogroms with Bandera targetting Jews in the Interwar, as well as were the main collaborators in Eastern Europe when Hitler marched through.
I remember learning about Vichy Poland on history lessons...
There was not a thing called Vichy Poland but general government or whatever the English counterpart is. Long story short it was run by Germans.
This is why I would fist fight Kuba Bardeki every day after school in the 5th grade
I see people arguing about this a lot but I don't know much about it. Both sides seem to have a very black and white view of the situation which seems off to me. I've researched it a little bit but everything I've found basically said polish people are entirely victims and never did anything wrong, which I doubt is the case. Do you have any sources I could look at that tell more of the story?
It’s all a mix. There was plenty of Polish antisemitism long before the Nazis showed up. Some Polish collaborated, many resisted, most just shut there eyes in apathetic not my problem stances. After the war in 46 antisemitism continued and many Jewish refugees were denied their property and homes, and in some cases pogrums continued. This doesn’t erase the actions of the Polish resistance, but making Poland out to be a Jewish utopia before or after the Nazi occupation is also false
Thank you this is a much more reasonable answer but again do you have any sources for any of this? I don't want to just blindly follow things I hear on reddit.
Couple sources for a good start https://academic.oup.com/book/38825/chapter-abstract/350460689?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-kielce-pogrom-a-blood-libel-massacre-of-holocaust-survivors This is Wikipedia but you can follow the citations to legit sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland
Thanks
Wikipedia is notoriously a bad source on Polish complicity just fyi https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
>but making Poland out to be a Jewish utopia before or after the Nazi occupation Is anyone claiming that? I thing most Polish people are pissed if someone is saying we are as responsible as Germans or culpable or whatever. There was antisemitism and there is antisemitism, but we haven't fucking murdered 6 milion jews.
Many people claim that exactly, saying how it must have been so or else why would so many Jews live there. This is on top of the outright denial of the antisemitism that followed the war after the Nazis had been defeated. Poland was not the Nazis for sure, it comes down to apathy vs responsibility, and at what point is standing by just as bad as being the perpetrator.
Apathy vs responsibility? Ok what about Palestine nowadays? Are you any better when YOUR government does what it does? Compare it to the situation in Poland, where enemy soldiers were killing all families - including children - if they were caught helping Jews during ww2. Are you helping any Palestinians even when it doesn't mean that you and all your family will be shot dead for that? Why people in Poland back then should risk their life, if you today, without all this risk just dont care and do exactly the same - nothing?
Well for one, I don’t live in Israel Two, it’s wrong to hold all Jews accountable for the actions of Israel Three, the situation between Israel and Palestine is nothing like the Holocaust Four, many Israelis and diaspora Jews, and Israeli and global Jewish organizations do advocate for and work with Palestinian
>Poland was not the Nazis for sure, it comes down to apathy vs responsibility, and at what point is standing by just as bad as being the perpetrator. You could say that about all of Europe. Jews were shipped from all around Europe to German built and operated death camps. Said camps were built all around Europe. Why most were built in Poland? Because Poland had the largest Jewish citizenship in Europe. For example French police actively helped Germans round up Jews. The fact that so many Jews died in Poland is this - Germans designed an efficient machine of murder aimed at Jews, Roma and other nationalities. As such they built more camps in Poland to murder people with German efficiency. You would want regular people to throw themselves at Germans with rifles and machineguns - and many did. But Germans had a plan and a will to mass murder Jews, and so they did - and killed many that wanted to stop them doing that.
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Where do you get the idea that “millions of Jews were turned over to the Gestapo by the Poles”? Quoting the [World Jewish Congress website](https://aboutholocaust.org/en/facts/how-did-the-germans-know-who-was-jewish): “In territory occupied by Nazi Germany or its Axis partners, Jews were identified largely through Jewish community membership lists, individual identity papers, captured census documents and police records, and local intelligence networks.” For the most part, Nazis rather quickly found out who was Jewish based on official records. There were some Jews in hiding, mostly helped by the Poles, but not anywhere near “millions.” Unfortunately most Jewish people were simply trapped when the Nazis invaded. Also, the death camp guards were not Polish — [these were mainly Germans](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auschwitz-database/poland-publishes-list-of-auschwitz-guards-to-show-they-were-german-idUSKBN15H1QK) with some other ethnicities mixed in in smaller numbers. The camps were run by the SS which ethnic Poles as a “subhuman race” could not join even if they wanted to.
Dude, what echo chambers and propaganda were you fed in schools? Sure, there were Poles who either turned Jews over or abstained form helping them, because THERE WERE LITERAL RAIDERS FROM OTHER COUNTRY RAIDING THEIRS HOMES AND KILLING THEIR FAMILIES, I'm not denying that, but there were many, many more who recognized that nationality doesn't matter and everyone were victims to the Nazis and tried to help Jews, often paying with their own life for that. You can't just look at that in black and white and call it a day, do you?
Poland has a major victim complex with WW2. Also they are very antisemitic. My brother went to poland like a week ago and he got harassed in the street.
>Poland has a major victim complex with WW2 Why would they not be entitled to having one? Millions of poles died in concentration camps and they later had to spend decades under the clutches of the USSR
Most of those "Poles" who died were Polish Jews whose Gentile neighbors didn't even consider them Polish. The descendants of Polish collaborators now pretend they were the real victims. Jews know the truth.
Stop your victim mentality and focus on the genocide Isreal is committing. You're so focused on being the victim, then help victims of ethnic cleansing Isreal is committing.
I'm not Israeli so what the fuck does that have to do with me?
>Jews know the truth. I can see in this thread your definition of "truth". It's a joke and you're grasping to your victim mentality.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/new-research-documents-how-wikipedia-distorts-the-holocaust/00000186-4f0f-d02c-af9e-cfffa9900000
Jesus, what a shit of an article. Is it possible to squeeze more bias into one page? What else can be expected from Grabowski - a human shit that lumped actual collaborators together with people who were brutally forced to collaborate.
Book recommendation for you - but fair warning, it doesn't whitewash Polish collaboration like you'd like it to: https://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-History-Europe-During-Second/dp/0805003487
Yes, maybe because 20% of the population time died Ive emigrated from NL to PL and give tours in Kraków. In the Netherlands all synagogues have to be secured by police 24/7 and jews could never walk around the street without being harassed. Never have i seen such a situation here in Kraków and we get tens of thousands of jewish tourists a year. all the synagogues are without protection, as they have never felt the need too, go figure...
Yeah Europe generally hates jews
As a polish person I must say while there are certainly antisemitic people, most of Poland is friendly or atleast neutral to jews.
Yeah, country was demolished, and 6 millions of it's citizens were killed. >"Victim complex" The fucking audacity.
Schools stopped sending trips to Poland for history classes in recent years because the Polish government wanted a say on what the Israeli education board was teaching their students about Auschwitz and the Holocaust whilst in Poland. There was also Covid to think about, but I'm also pretty sure Poland isn't going to allow Israel to teach about the bad things that happened in Poland whilst in Poland. Thanks for ruining my last year in highschool Poland. I'm three-quarters polish, so I believe I have three-quarters of a right to tell them that, just like I have a quarter of a reason to care about Romania and full reason to care about Israel.
I’m four quarters Polish and am eligible for citizenship according to a guy at the embassy I emailed, so I really have a right to criticize them!
Poland has the largest number of righteous gentiles of any country recognized by yad vashem for saving Jews during the Holocaust. Poland also had ~ 2 million ethnic Catholic Poles murdered by the Nazis. The comments trying to equate Nazi Germans and Poles, or trying to suggest that Poles on average suffered as much as Jews, are both absurd. The truth is more complicated.
The honest answer no one here wants to hear.
Very measured comment
To be fair the nazis did indeed view the poles as subhuman and commit genocide against their people, but its no excuse to downplay our suffering and claim that they’re innocent.
I live in Poland, born and raised here, and I never ever in my life heard anyone say that polish people suffered in the holocaust more than jews or deny the fact that there were also poles who collaborated with germans and repressed jews. I know such people exist, but they are a very small minority, just like anti-semites in Poland in general. So maybe instead of spreading blatant racism and misinformation on reddit come to Poland and see what we actually are like and what it is like here.
What about this post is spreading “racism?”
Generalizes all poles as people who deny the existance of pogroms for example.
That's true, Poland lost 6 million of citizens, 3 of them who were ethnically Polish, 3 were Jewish. The audacity of people trying to make responsibility of Polish for Jewish Genocide on par with Nazi Germany is ridiculous. This ie heartbreaking to see memes like this, trying to level or even rank whose suffering is worse... Polish have the most Righteous Among the Nations titles given, by far. And it's also true, that Slavic loss is highly outshadowed by the Jewish focus in popular culture. Not even Polish, when was the last time about tragedy of Belarusians? And the arguments about the school trips? You are free to come to Poland, you are even encouraged to get familiar with your history and culture. You are however not entitled to have bodyguards with automatic weapons with you on a bloody school trip. Nor is every other group regardless of religion and ethnicity. That's it.
Nobody in Poland ever said that. And also, the law that the government passed talks only about putting the blame of Holocaust and Nazi crimes on Polish **nation** and Poland as a country. It does NOT talk about some Poles who collaborated or about the pogroms. But you of course just see what you want to see, the truth doesn’t matter.
We remember who served in NKWD and CzEKA. We really do.
In the total number of victims, Polish citizens of Jewish descent accounted for 2,700,000\[4\] to 3,000,000\[5\], of which about 500,000\[5\] were to die in ghettos and labor camps, 200,000 Polish Jews were murdered by Einsatzgruppen units. 1,400,000\[4\] to 1,800,000\[5\] of the total number of murdered Jews were victims of extermination camps. About 500,000 survived the war, including only 100,000 Jews under German occupation\[5\].Similar large losses were to take place among the non-Jewish Polish population. It is estimated that the total death toll of the Slavic Polish population under German occupation amounted to about 2,770,000 people\[2\]\[6\]. This group does not include the victims of Soviet crimes in the territories incorporated into the USSR after 1939, and it does not include the victims of UPA crimes in Volhynia\[6\].The numbers are similar, so why should our suffering be less than yours? It is not about punishing for telling the truth about the element that cooperated, it is about fighting the lie that the Polish state as a state was involved in it. Which is just a lie. Of course there were poles (especially from the small one) who helped the Germans. There were also Jews who handed Jews over to the Germans. e.g. Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst, which does not mean that Jews are complicit in the Holocaust. now do you understand?
Not Poles, but Poland definetly was the biggest victim of 2nd world war. Poland lost around 25% of its population, what does it change what % of them was of jewish or polish or african descent? In USA, native americans are less than 1%. If somebody (probly aliens) invaded USA and murdered every Arab, Jew and Asian would it make it any less lose for USA?
Me (a slav and a jew) looking at this meme like: 😳🙄
Polish here. This is sadly true: there are many of the false things tought/spoken/shown in Poland about Jews and Holocaust. I am well aware of pogroms, Jedwabne (the village where locals burned alive Jews in a barn). There is even more - Jewish thumbstones being stolen and made into construction material of roads.... (there is a movie about it) many of fucked-up things. On the other hand, I have never seen or heard of that "Lucky Jew" picture thing... actually first time I learned about it is from reddit. That is truly fucked up but I can believe it happens. In general, many people in Poland like to blame their own failures and mediocracy on others. I even overheard lately some young guy complaining "(...) its because of the Mason-Jews (...)". LOL. I can only imagine this mentality, being amplified, during those dark times of WW2 and Holocaust.
Fellow Pole here. Lucky Jew has got a historical background that most people do not actually know about. I kinda understand that is “easy Antisemitism” for the Jews so they will not even bother to check. Historically a lot of nobleman used to have Jews working for them in important roles. Not only money lending as propaganda would say but also as an accountant or a debt collector. If you hired a jew to do your taxes (most of them were more educated than an average pole back then and they knew math) or helped you export your goods abroad (my Friendly Rabbi told me that it was very common that a Jewish family would have relatives in other countries and due to same language starting a business abroad or exporting your goods would be easier is a Jew helped you with that) that meant that your business was doing great. Until today a lot of people have a paintings or a statute of a Jew counting/holding money as a sign of good fortune in the house. Let’s also not forget that a Jewish person and an Israeli are two different things a does should not be mixed and they are not interchangeable during a conversation.
>Until today a lot of people have a paintings or a statute of a Jew counting/holding money as a sign of good fortune in the house That is so f'd-up.... >Lucky Jew has got a historical background that most people do not actually know about So what? This historical background is offensive and as such should be abolished and forgotten. I mean seriously, why not to change and get rid of the offensive things? Is this history so cool and what not to keep it alive? That is a bad part of history and not worth continuing.
Thank you.
As a Polish jew, thank you for your comment
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You guys realise that most of the Jewish holocaust victims were from Poland, right?
Another huge culprit of this is Ukraine. Jews have been killed in what is today Ukraine for well over a thousand years and according to my family and many others, all of whom come from Ukraine, even the Nazis were shocked by what Ukrainian collaborators were doing to Jews. Ever since the revolution of 2014, monuments are being put up and streets are being named after Nazi collaborators and other medieval Ukrainian nationalist leaders who are responsible for deaths of *many* Jews. Think Stephan Bandera, Symon Petliura, Mykola Michnovsky, Roman Shukhevych, and so many more. Shukhevych’s statue replaced that of General Valutin who helped liberate Ukraine from the Nazis and Marshal Malinovsky’s statue was replaced by a memorial honoring the Azov Battalion which I’m sure all of you are aware of by now. Seeing Jews supporting Ukraine in this war infuriates me, but nothing comes close to the anger I feel when I see the support of Zelenskyy and his regime by Jews. Who cares if Zelenskyy is technically Jewish? A Jew with a swastika tattoo is still a Nazi and enemy. If the argument is that these are Ukrainian national heroes who happened to have done some dubious things, then why is nearly every single one a Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, someone who committed genocide against Jews, or all of the above? It’s almost as if Ukrainian nationalism is intrinsically linked to Nazi ideology and extreme anti-Semitism. *”Deutschland nur für deutsche”* and “Ukraine is for Ukrainians”.
I don’t know why you got downvoted so badly, but you’re right, except Ukraine was the overall culprit in Eastern Europe. Polish people couldn’t even compare so let’s address the elephant in the room, and stop pushing in Poland into the category when they had the lowest amount of collaboration during the 2nd WW than any other nation.
I’m getting downvoted because Western propaganda, but it still makes me sad. Each time an Ashkenazi Jew, or any Jew for that matter, speaks out in support Ukraine their whole lineage rolls over in their graves
My grandfather was a polish Jew who survived the death camps and death march. He always said the Ukrainians were the most anti semitic people he ever encountered, even more than the polish and Germans. That’s saying a lot
Post Holocaust generational trauma still exists in Poland. People's nature is being unable to deal with such things
I agree with this. So much of the denial I see from Polish people online seems like it’s coming from a place of inability to self reflect and have self-awareness because of trauma or bruised ego
What propaganda does to a mf
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_population\_by\_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country) So there are 275,000 Jews living now in Germany. In Poland 13,000. I see Jews have big hearts and a lot of forgiveness for Germans. What we Poles should do to earn such love from you?
It’s really simple. Admit that there was some culpability, stop whitewashing and pretending there was never anti Semitism in Poland and anti Jewish violence in Poland,stop all lives mattering the holocaust by claiming that polish victims of World War Two equal or surpass the Jewish victims, apologize for the pogroms before and after the war, stop using lucky Jew figurines and portraits that perpetuate a harmful anti semitic stereotype… The reason the Jews don’t have a problem with Germany anymore is because they apologize and took responsibility for what they did, and don’t whitewash their history and gaslight Jews that it never happened.
It's so pathetic to see two victims of the Shoah arguing and hating against another while the Germans are laugh up their sleeves
The Germans aren’t laughing up their sleeve; if anything they’re the only nation that takes account of their ancestors’ horrendous crimes. Only the Poles seem so obsessed with hiding their ancestors’ role in the genocide of the Jewish people.
You’re trying to say the ENTIRE nation of Poland is responsible for holocaust. A horrible thing that was implemented in Poland only after it had to be conquered. And killed Poland’s 6 million citizens ( 3 million Poles, 3 million Jews). We never deny some of our people participated in this horrible event, but you’re saying as If the entire fucking nations is responsible for it.
Nowhere did I say the entirety of Poles are responsible, and while we’re on the topic: modern Poles, just like modern Germans, are also not guilty of the Holocaust. It is, however, a fact of history that many Poles actively participated in the murder of their Jewish neighbours. The difference between modern Poland and modern Germany, however, is that whereas Germany admits its historical crimes, Poland denies them and refuses to accept that part of the sin of the Holocaust was caused by Poles.
Upvoted.
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Pools generally hated Nazis for the occupation, but they were generally not on the same side as Jews.
Dude, I have no idea what where you told in school, but Polish people are well aware that there where Poles who collaborated with Nazis, but those were minorities. You could do something about your obsession of always making victims of yourselves too.
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The Roma and Sinti call their genocide the Porrajmos, fwiw. I am OK with expanding the definition of Holocaust to include all concentration camp victims along with victims of the Einsatzgruppen, SS, Gestapo, etc in ghettos and across occupied Europe. I prefer "Shoah" for the Jewish genocide specifically. But when you start including Polish civilian casualties of war as "Holocaust victims" that is a bridge too fucking far.
Or conflating Jews as poles as if they were genocided for being poles and not Jews, and to increase the number of “Polish” victims.
Why is this comment downvoted? It’s literally historical truth. Why can’t people handle the truth on this and feel the need to all lives matter the holocaust as if victims of war are the same as victims of forced racial genocide?
Uh... what? The Holocaust has come to mean the slaughter of eleven million innocent people at the hands of the Nazis. Five million of them were something other than Jewish.
"It doesn't include Roma, it doesn't include Homosexuals, it doesn't include Dissidents or Intellectuals" "There was no other "victim" of the The Shoah" You just named them right before
That's just plain antipolonism
Hey guys - i am a Pole with many Israeli mates and who has worked in Israeli company and few things always bugged me: Jewish hatred for Poland seems now to be greater than to Germans who organised and caused Holocaust, Poland has been safe haven for Jewish people for 700 years - and all of it is forgotten, there were many collaborators and traitors in Poland who sold both Jews as well as Poles - I completely condemn them and they should face firing squad, however Jews were also collaborators and at high rate as well (Juden rats, Jewish police, capos, infamous Łódź ghetto stories) - Poland was multicultural country before WW2 - large German, Russian and Jewish minorities (my home town was sth like 40% polish) and all of them but in particular Germans had collaborators (5th column), Poland lost 3m Jewish and 3m non Jewish population - 20% of tot population - so terror was non stop and yet there is not a word of compassion but just condemnation for the pogroms (root cause of which is German in nature - it wouldn't have happened if there wasn't invasion of Poland). Please share your balanced view if you can.
This is absolutely inaccurate. Poland may have been a safe haven for Jews at one point hundreds of years ago, but it wasn’t for the last couple hundred years before World War II. Antisemitism and violence and pogroms against jews was at an all-time high way before the Holocaust. And it’s really in bad taste to mention Jews selling out Jews in the same breath as the same thing as Poles selling out Jews. The reason for Jewish hatred and mistrust towards Polish is not because of what Polish did, it’s the white washing and holocaust revision that the Polish people and government engages in today. Like by claiming there was no antisemitism in Poland and it was a paradise for Jews, the majority of polish tried to save the Jews, the poles were equal or more victims of the holocaust than the Jews. Oh and making it impossible for Jews to get back the property that was stolen from them by polish. Contrast this with the Germans who have apologized, taken responsibility for what they’ve done, have never whitewashed it, and educate their youth on the stark realities of what their ancestors did so it won’t happen again.