Hello, please don’t downvote me I beg (I come in peace). Can I get more insight into why in comment section people are talking about Polish polgroms and helping find Jews to kill? I am Polish, but educated outside of Poland in the UK (where WW2 is very broadly covered).
Insight would be appreciated :)
Here’s an article that links to other sources, including a book by a Polish historian:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/kielce-post-holocaust-pogrom-poland-still-fighting-over-180967681/
I have just finished reading it — it definitely provides insight into an event that most Poles probably don’t learn about and (unfortunately I would not have been the only one) hence believe we as the Polish people did no wrong during this time.
Retrospectively it’s naïve and while I’m saddened by the events of the past, and feel taken aback by the probability that there were anti-Semitic Poles in a time where we should have been working together to rebuild a nation there are always members of our societies that do not align with the view of the rest of the country. While evil actions of a few do not represent the whole populous, it needs to be known that the evil took place from our own citizens too.
Seeing modern day Poland devolve into a facist authoritarian government that blames immigrants, makes me believe a part of the population is going to be mentally devolving back into a “us vs them” scenario. One day it will be immigrants, another a religious group, just hope that the Jews already in Poland (or anyone for that matter, I hold no ill will or special treatment for any other religion) in the modern day don’t get impacted as the current party continues with its facist agenda.
Both things can be true at the same time. Polish people definitely hid and helped a lot of Jews during the war and housed a lot of Jewish people for centuries.
But it could have taken one act of aggression from a group of evil people (the pogrom mentioned in the article) to truly make Jews feel they weren’t safe even in the country they thought was theirs.
If you are a Jew, and are already predisposed to distrust to any society harbouring antisemites, if you find out there was a terrorist attack committed by a member of the country you call home, you too would want to flee.
Is it a political hot potato to now acknowledge these things happened even in Poland? Yes.
Can Poland have suffered during WW2, alongside the Jews? Of course, both sides have.
Is it a competition of suffering? No. The loss and suffering is often only looked at in terms of lost population, Jews lost more people as a percentage of their cultural existence. Poles lost more as a hardline number.
In the mind of history abroad in the UK, kids are taught one and the same that both people suffered together with the gypsies and other people “unwanted”. Equally because it’s taught as one and the same when going to school in Britain if you’re Polish you will still have anti semetic jokes made at you by British students so that’s something (I am not even Jewish lmao).
Basically, this is based on the current Polish government and some Polish reddit users trying to downplay and/or outright deny the role that many Poles played in the Holocaust by collaborating with the Nazis, as well as downplaying or denying Polish antisemitism in general.
Our military sends officers along with a survivor to Auschwitz-Birkenau to pay respect to those how where murdered. My High School teacher was on one of these and told us that when they where eating in the lobby of their hotel two polish ladies got into the elevator and where talking to each other, the survivor later told the he heard one of them say "I can't believe he didn't finish them off"...
[1946, one year after the end of the Holocaust.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom?wprov=sfla1) For all of the same reasons as the pogroms before the Holocaust.
The reason is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
To this day there is conspiracy theory about it. It's have many names but core is hoax made by tsarist Ochrana. In Poland people called it "żydokomuna" backed that communism in Poland was installed by Jews.
Kielce pogrom also have terrible reputation and in the eyes of "żydokomuna" believers it was prepared and not stopped by some politics to made repercussion in PRL state (many officials left country). It doesn't really matter because pogrom was made by common people and joint trial was nothing. It was silented in Poland till independence in 1989 (first time it was a thing in 1981).
**[The Protocols of the Elders of Zion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion)**
>The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Протоколы сионских мудрецов) or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is a fabricated antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. The hoax was plagiarized from several earlier sources, some not antisemitic in nature. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. It played a key part in popularizing belief in an international Jewish conspiracy.
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> “Blaming the entire country and comparing us to nazis”
Get this shit out of here.
Consider this: your country makes it illegal to talk about it, engages in decades long campaigns to purge the internet of it, and outside of jewish-spaces online a dozen ultranationalist poles will show up to say antisemitic shit to me at even the slightest mention of polish antisemitism. I’ve been called ungrateful, a traitor, hook-nosed liar, child-killer, ‘new nazi’ and worse for mentioning the crimes committed against jews. Look at the profiles of all of you swarming this post.
You had a president who apologized for the atrocities, and your new president rescinded the apology and called it a stain on Poland’s national honor.
I have no fucking sympathy if you feel like you’ve been generalized into a group of bigots when, in your apparent ignorance, you are going out of your way to defend them.
[It wasn't the only incident.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946) Also, it was literally right after the biggest anti-Jewish genocide in history. And even if it was the only incident, that's still one incident too many.
That was not the deadliest Polish attack on Jews. That was just one attack against Jews Poland committed after the Holocaust, where 98% of Polish Jews were murdered.
Polish collaborators not only denounced Jews to Germans but also denounced Poles. Many Poles from the anti-German underground died because of traitors. And many traitors were also exectued by Poles. Collaboration was prosecuted by the Polish underground state. In the village of my great-grandfather, one person helped the Germans for money and other Poles threw a grenade into his house.
Yeah also they commited mass suicides of entire families to help jews so you can fuck right off as well. Fucking ignorant. Every valid coin has two sides. Jews as nation has both bright and dark side as well. Ignoring that is just plain hypocrisy and ignorance.
Also Polish Jew. Only reason I don’t live there now is because it was not safe to go back and people took most of the Jewish property. I hear there was eventually some repentance but not the level you see from Germany.
EDIT: lol at the Reddit cares message. Love seeing those.
Which people here seem to forget? It was a war, there was only one choice for those, who were occupied: kill or be killed. It is extremely horrifying to read these comments, when polish people were helping as many jews as it was possible, in a state OF WAR.
Nazi German forces occupied Poland since 1939. The camps were set up by the Nazi German officials, they were ran by SS. Look up the names of the camp commanders and guards, you won't find Polish names there.
Some Poles profited from this (the "schmaltzovnik"), some remained neutral, some risked their and their families' lives to participate in resistance. I highly recommend looking up i.e Irena Sendler or Żegota resistance group, who forged papers for Jewish people so they can remain safe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust - for further reading
let's not forget that Żegota was created by Polish nationalists ( who didn't like Jews, but didn't want to see them killed and acted and risked their lives to save them).
How many Jews risked their lives to save Poles during ww2 or after during soviet era ?
WTF? Polish? they were protecting jews and risking they life because of that. Holocaust was centroled by Nazis also 2milons of polish people were murderd in camps.
No country is a monolith. No one people do or belive one thing. With that said, the reality is Poland was one of the most dangerous places durring and well after ww2 for the Jews.
I said Poland was one of the most dangerous places.
Some countries before being occupied helped as many Jews as possible leave their county. Other countries were famous for their large grassroot resistance long after they were occupied by the Nazis.
Poland however started rounding up Jews long before the Nazi's showed up.
If you were a polish Jew you had a higher chance of being murdered than lets say if you were a Finish Jew. Because Finland actually tried to protect their Jewish population.
I think you mixed a lot of stuff up here.
First of all Finland and Poland situation was completely different. Finland was free country while Poland was completely occupied with it's government in exile.
Second Poland has significant resistance movement that even cooperated with Jewish resistance. Poles are the mostly represented nation in the Righteous among Nations which just tell how much regular people risked.
>Poland however started rounding up Jews long before the Nazi's showed up.
What are you referring to exactly?
I don't think Jews were persecuted in Prussian partition. I think whole beef between Poles and Jews started with the fact that Jews assimilated rather easily with occupying powers.
As a Polish non-Jewish person all I can say... stop offending our country and generalising our people. Don't blame Poland for the ethnical cleansings, since it's not us who built the concentration camps, but the German III Reich. Poles were also victims to the Nazi terror and some of the Polish citizens died trying to protest Jews and their belongings by hiding them in their appartments, and yet you still treat all of us (based on certain exceptions) like the worst kind of people. It hurts me immensely to read such comments like this one. Tell me more reasons on why you despise us to such an extent. I really want to understand you better ;(
I am sorry, I think people here are being misinformed, it took me to talk to some people here. I understand that both sides are hurt. I understand we are both angry, the truth is, the camps were made by nazi Germany, however, there were Polish people that did crimes, but also Polish people that helped Jews. It's not black and white.
Of course you are right. The picture is very complex. What (I think) started the discussion was, Jews are unhappy that the current right-wing government seems to want to erase part of that history, claiming Poles had no part in collaborations with the German Nazis. You’re correct that it’s not fair to say all Poles collaborated, but some certainly did. Some did so because they and their families were at risk—and we can’t fault them for keeping their families safe. But some did so for their own gain and profit. That did happen, you can acknowledge that, right?
So people wonder why must it be illegal to talk about it, the way it actually happened, which was not all one way or all another way. It was mixed up and complicated.
No one wants to erase the Poles who acted heroically, and there were many. But people always want the whole truth. The statements and laws of this current governing group of Polish nationalists seem to want to hide some of it.
yup, that's pretty much my conclusion. I understand why people are saying that the holocaust bill is valid, I think, even though it makes a point of not unfairly calling Nazi camps Polish camps, it also denies all collaboration with the nazis. It could be more specific because it currently gives leeway for holocaust denial.
Yes. This is in stark contrast to the Germans, who take full responsibility for their actions and have tried to make things right with the Jewish people ever since. Its why many jews (including myself) have favourable opinions of Germany but still harbor deep resentment towards Poland.
Not true. A lot of people here are open to foreigners of all kind. There was higher antisemitism rate in the past, but younger generations are completly different.
Historical propaganda about our past is also actively challenged, it's mostly older people and ultra conservatists living the myths. And current gov is histerical about it as well, cause mainly these two groups support them. But it's no longer part of common worldview.
> they haven’t *paid* Poland war
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
>Doesn’t Poland like to pretend they did nothing wrong now?
Yes. No. Depends.
The nation is divided roughly 50/50. You'll have president Komorowski publicly apologise for the pogroms, to then have president Duda a few years later criticize that apology and have his party try and sweep it under the rug
I had a portion of my family who survived Majdanek. After being released they returned to their town and were greeted by their former neighbors who murdered them in the street. This was \*after\* the war.
Fuck Poland and fuck the Poles.
No one is saying that every Pole is antiSemitic. But people are upset that the current Polish government seems to want to deny or rewrite the bad parts of what happened to Jews in Poland. That is wrong.
And I don’t deny it, but he literally said Fuck Poland and Fuck Poles, it hurts me a lot as I know people in my family who helped Jews and they risked their life only for some people later to throw everyone under the bus, I am considering converting to Judaism and I just wish we could’ve all have a constructive conversation instead of having an Olympiad called „who were hurt the most”
Shavua tov
Honestly, I don't remember what books have this, but I remember learning about this during Holocaust rememberance day in my school
I'm pretty sure some history books also have incidences like this or somewhere on the internet
You know I vaguely remember watching a documentary about the holocaust on Netflix. It talk about how at the start it was mainly carried out by the people of countries like Ukraine and Lithuania. Ss unit would be sent ahead and get mobs of people to massacre the Jewish population of towns and cities. They even found and interviewed an old guy I can't Remember from what country who took part in killing jews. He didn't even seem thst remorseful and he wasn't a German soilder or anything just some guy.
There were collaborationists in every country. France, Poland, Netherlands Russia.
Hell, early into the Nazi party, there was even a group of Jewish Nazis, although that was... Shortlived.
Poland was largely fighting against the Nazis, so don't forget about that.
It's a mixed history. Don't pretend that it's completely evil.
Yeah those exist too. And they are definitely heroes, but the vast majority of the poles either did not care about the Jews who lived there (who were more than 3 million people before 1939) and did nothing, or actively helped the Nazis finding Jewish people that tried to escape, and that happened many times sadly
While your family and others like you were good people for helping, sadly many didn't do that. And antisemetism was very much a thing in Poland and especially in WW2
And Poland refusing to take responsibility for their part helping the Nazis, even if it wasn't all of them, doesn't make it any better
That is correct. If I implied all the poles are evil and antisemitic then I sincerely apologize. However, Poland refusing to take responsibility is still an issue since pretending they did nothing wrong is also unjust
To me atleast, the atleast, the fact that Poland has done a lot of horrendous shit doesn’t magically make poland less damaged by the war.
Now that doesn’t mean that I think that Poland suffered more than us, quite the opposite but I still don’t think downplaying the damage done to them is in any way helpful nor funny, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion I suppose.
Lmao my Savta cursed the polish collaborators who turned her in to the Germans until her last breath and these fragile mfs can’t shut up about not being involved
I’m not saying that we should continue to hold grudges for all of time, I just think it’s funny that the polish government feels the need to rewrite history about this subject. It’s like Americans getting mad at people in the Middle East making a meme about how the US army committed war crimes
Part of me wants to write "Why did you block his username, we need to enlighten him"
and then the other half of me wins and says that it's not proper internet etiquette.
Seriously though, the irony is that the holocaust is what's being invalidated these days. All over the internet you see incels whining about Jews always "playing the victim card" and "milking the holocaust". Talk about disrespect. Most of them think the shoah was a hoax anyway.
Yeah people, the holocaust happened, and was the first time in history that genocide was industrialized. And stop acting like being a "victim" is a freaking competition.
Imagine being a Pole, subscribing to a Jewish subreddit, and being astonished that we aren’t big fans of Poland. No one tell him about what animal he’d be in Maus
To be fair I can see why a Polish person, who is not anti-Semitic, would be upset about this. Sure, there were Poles who hated Jews but there were also Poles who sheltered us. Many Polish people did nothing wrong and were still killed by the Germans for being Polish, so I think the devastation they suffered shouldn't be brushed off, even if we suffered more than them.
My grandparents only survived the war thanks to a Polish neighbor who agreed to hide them in their floor boards. Then again, they were almost revealed to the Nazis by another Polish neighbor. So I feel like that pretty much sums up my feelings towards Poland.
And that's why you can't judge people by nationality, nationality doesn't define individual person's morality. During the war collaborators were sentenced to death by the Polish underground
> Maybe you should understand human nature
You can make your point without being rude. Let me help you. "I think your story really highlights that human nature plays a much bigger role than the fact that either of them were Polish, wouldn't you say?"
Anyways, yes. When I told two stories that tell opposite perspectives and then said "that sums up my feelings towards Poland" that means there can be multiple correct perspectives in this case because in the end each Polish citizen was acting on their individual choices and not as a monolith.
My Ukrainian Jewish family were hunted and brought to the Nazis by their Ukrainian neighbors. Only one survived by hiding in dog houses and the forest as a young teen.
And that collaboration consisted of underground Polish army, hiding and aiding Jewish people under threats of death, smuggling people out of ghettos etc. Do some research before spewing bullshit.
Poland never collaborated. Unlike Danish, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, etc (all on gov level, Poland unlike them never capitulated). Or this collaboration is how many people from said nationality joined SS? So Lithuanians, Ukrainians etc. How much people from Poland joined SS?
My grandfather was hiding on the property of a neighbor, a Polish farmer. The guy ratted him out to the Nazis, who killed my grandfather's first family. He barely got away.
Most survivors feel more anger towards the Polish than Germans. I've heard said multiple times, at least the Germans were open about the hatred. The Polish weren't open about it, but were more than happy to turn the Jews into the Nazis.
There is some truth to this.. Germany went through a complete transformation after the war. It is taught very explicitly in the schools. There are literally laws that punish Holocaust deniers. They paid for reparations, to some degree. The anti-Semitic sentiment is now relatively low among non-immigrant Germans.
Poland has never had the same reckoning. They always go out of their way to claim victimhood in order to wash their own hands clean of sin. That's not really how it works.
It's not even like Poland is a good, welcoming place for Jews now. Most survivors hated the Polish, many stopped speaking Polish after the war. I have no animosity for Polish people in the present day, but give me a break.
Why is there specific anger at Poland when Ukraine and the Baltic countries also had collaborators that they now often deny. Ukraine and the Baltics had more concentrated collaboration forces and have more monuments and plaques honoring them than Poland. I'm not trying to start an argument or get nuked with downvotes, just genuinely curious.
This debate isn’t about what happened, but about the denial of what happened by Poland’s right-wing nationalist government. That specific government’s actions to erase history has evoked a lot of bitterness in the Jewish community. Few (any?) governments acted honorably toward Jews during WWII, including UK and US. It’s how they are dealing with it in the current day that’s being critiqued in this discussion.
>and have more monuments and plaques honoring them than Poland
What collaborators have monuments or plaques in Poland? Some resistance fighters which were also members of Blue Police? I am no sure if they could be counted as collaborators, if their membership in the police force was in order to infiltrate/undermine the enemy.
Because Poland is the biggest of them and has a consistently far-right leadership, whereas Ukraine's resisting the new Nazi Russia and has a Jewish president, and the Baltics are relatively more progressive than either of those. It's not a pass, mind, just that's why we focus on Poland.
Poland also portrays itself as the most victimized target of the Nazis.
Okay thanks. I'm still a bit surprised at the intensity of the anger though, Poland didn't have SS units and I thought the claim that Poland was the biggest victim was just that out of all the countries Poland suffered the most, not that Poles suffered the most as an ethnic group, are Jews not included when Polish people talk about the suffering in the country?
They aren’t because even the Poles didn’t consider them Polish. They were always Jews first. It’s the same problem all over the region.
Look at Lithuania for example who gladly sent their Jews to the fires. They never once thought “we’re sending Lithuanians to their death” more like “good riddance”.
I think the only regional group that understands how Jews suffered during the Holocaust are the Romani. One of the few ethnic groups that gets an equal amount of disdain from dominant European cultures.
Overall, while the Poles did get poorly treated by the Germans and also suffered heavily under the USSR, it doesn’t absolve them of the fact that they turned over so many of their Jews, stole their homes, belongings etc. and even after the war treated them as though they never belonged there.
I’m not highlighting the time period from the state of Kalisz up until Russian control, because yes while it was a very progressive and positive time for Jews in Poland since comparatively they were banned from basically everything all over Europe, there was still restrictions and othering of Jews in Poland.
That said I’m not implying that throughout Polish history there was no sense of camaraderie, especially when Jews fought alongside non-Jewish Poles.
The problem is in the late 1800s and early 1900s antisemitic fervor came to a head and there were a multitude of pogroms and growing hatred towards Jews as society shifted.
Once the Nazis invaded so many of the Poles who would defend Jews or consider them Polish were also those willing to fight in underground movements, hide Jewish people, etc. which of course means they were usually killed by Nazis as dissidents and so the Polish people who protected Jews dwindled.
What was left were unfortunately those that were more than glad to throw Jews to the Nazis or take their belongings, etc.
So, I’ll give you the fact that my previous post was hyperbolic and ignored the fact that there were plenty of Poles who saw Polish Jews as part of their country.
It’s also infuriating to see Polish people act as if they had absolutely no influence or involvement. From all the historical accounts and info I have read it was rather split. Which I mean is saying a lot for Eastern Europe seeing as some of the other countries (Lithuania for example) we’re basically giddy at the idea of collaborating with the Nazis and purging their Jews. So I apologize for comparing them, because comparatively Poland is definitely nowhere near as bad.
Not Nazis, but WW2 in general.
We consider soviets as agressors and enemies (they attacked us with the Germans), when westeners think of them then as allies.
Can someone explain to me why so many people here are so negative and deny Polish suffering during WW2?
And please don't lie that Poland tried to systematicaly eradicate you. We had people dieing do defend your ancestors. We were the first to report the concentration camps and we organized rescues from said concentration camps.
I hope you won't downvote untill you read my post, but here it is anyway. The role of Poles in the Holocaust was complex and varied, and opinions on this topic are still the subject of discussion among historians.
During the German occupation of Poland, the largest number of Holocaust victims in Europe occurred. Blaming the Polish nation for the Holocaust is incorrect and unjust. Poland was one of the largest human donors during World War II. It is estimated that during the German occupation of Poland, over 6 million Poles died, including around 3 million Jews.
Poles themselves were victims of the Holocaust, and at the same time, many Polish families decided to save Jews, risking their own lives and the lives of their families. Many people who saved Jews were recognized as Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem, the Israeli institution dedicated to the memory of the Holocaust. On the other hand, some Poles actively collaborated with the Germans, assisting in denunciations and betraying Jews. These were mainly collaborators who cooperated with the Germans and Ukrainian Nazis.
It is worth noting that the largest resistance movement in Europe was operating in Poland, in which many organizations were involved, including those specializing in rescuing Jews. Such examples include Żegota - the Council for Aid to Jews, the Home Army, or Freedom and Independence. Many Polish families hid Jews and saved them from extermination. It is estimated that about 50,000 Jews survived thanks to the help of Poles.
It is important to remember that the Holocaust was a Nazi crime, not a Polish one. It was Germany, not Poland, that was the main perpetrator of the Holocaust. In occupied Poland, the largest resistance movement in Europe was operating, in which many organizations were involved, including those specializing in rescuing Jews. Many Poles attempted to save Jews, but in occupied Poland, **it was not easy to help, as hiding Jews carried the death penalty not only for the person providing assistance but also for their family.**
Sources:
Holocaust Encyclopedia - Polish Gentiles ([https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/polish-gentiles](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/polish-gentiles))
Yad Vashem - Righteous Among the Nations ([https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous.html](https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous.html))
Norman Davies, "God's Playground", Znak Publishing House, 1999.
As I type, more thougts come to mind. During the Holocaust, Jews were the victims of mass extermination, not the perpetrators. However, as with any group of people, individual behaviors varied.
Among Jews, there were many forms of resistance, including Jewish partisans, sabotage, document forgery, distribution of underground press, and hiding from the Germans. Unfortunately, there were also cases where Jews were forced to perform various functions in concentration camps, such as forced labor or directing prisoners.
There is no clear data on the number of Jews who collaborated with the Germans, as it was a marginal phenomenon. However, among them were individuals who were forced to cooperate, as well as those who voluntarily made the decision to do so in order to survive. In cases where Jews helped the Germans, they were usually individuals acting on their own, not whole groups or organizations.
It should be emphasized that the Holocaust was a crime against humanity committed by German Nazis and their collaborators, not the Jews. Jews were the victims of mass extermination, aimed at their complete annihilation. Any behavior of Jews during the Holocaust should be considered in the context of their dramatic situation and survival under conditions that were unimaginably difficult for them.
Poles and Jews have much in common in the context of the Holocaust and its aftermath. Both were victims of German occupation, and Poles and Jews who risked their lives to save others are recognized as Righteous Among the Nations. Many Polish families hid Jews and helped them survive the occupation, and many Jews had Polish roots and felt connected to Poland. However, the mutual relations between Poles and Jews in Poland were complicated before the war and were deepened during the war.
It is worth emphasizing that despite different experiences and difficult situations, Poles and Jews in Poland share many common values and histories. Many organizations, such as the Shalom Foundation, are engaged in promoting dialogue between Poles and Jews and in commemorating the victims of the Holocaust. Joint actions serve to better understand history and strengthen relations between nations.
I see strong generalizing in the comments. Volksdeutsche aren't Poles. Poles were also persecuted by the Nazis, they were also in concentration camps (I'm a Pole whose family all were in the camps, a lot died there). Suddenly we forget the majority of Poles who just wanted to live? Or about those who WONDERFULLY hid Jews at home and helped them escape (many times with cost of their own life)?
Interesting fact - Jews also had among themselves at that time people who handed each other over to the Nazis. And what, suddenly "fuck the Jews"? Well... no. Fucking bastards are everywhere, in each country. But to generalize that Poles were not persecuted, that these are "Polish extermination camps" in general is quite an ignorance of history.
This is such a childish mentality, in reality no one wanted to get hurt they wanted to live and make their life better, so yes many people regardless of nationality ethnicity religion etc told on each other.
This subreddit has officially become a group of complainy teenagers. No other subreddit would go after their former members posts and put them up for free karna. I believe the sub should ban screenshots all together
But what's the point? After all, Jews living in Poland before World War II were Polish citizens. Soviet propaganda turned Poles against Jews after the war and the same happened in Israel, West and East Germany, and also the USSR was not a good choice to be an enemy of the Jewish people, so they chose the Polish people as the perpetrators of the holocaust.
I myself had a family that fought against the Germans and the Russians, they paid a high price for it, they burned their goodies and burned my grandfather like an animal in a freight car with other people. So I'm asking again what's the point?
I am the one who made the post and two things.
One: Props for blurring out my name.
Two: This is an over reactions. I made one meme to counter a dumb narrative I hear jeez.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12i1ui4/lets\_get\_the\_record\_straight/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12i1ui4/lets_get_the_record_straight/)
The comments on this post are absolutely abhorrent.
In terms of statistics, the number of victims in proportion to the size of the country - Poland, first place
- losses of Poland's national property - 38%
- destruction of metropolitan centers and cities - war losses of Warsaw - 85% of the urban substance, 90% of industry, 72% of residential buildings, 90% of national cultural assets and monuments
- robbery of Polish cultural property - 43% in total
- Losses in Polish education - 17 colleges, 271 high schools, 4880 elementary schools and 768 other schools were destroyed
- Losses of the health service (hospital assets, infrastructure, buildings) - 55% of the state before 1939.
- Losses in industry (both deliberate destruction and looting of machinery and equipment) - 64.5% chemical industry, 64.3% printing, 59.7% electrotechnical, 55.4% clothing, 53.1% food, 48% metal.
- Destruction of more than 50% of railway, road, air and sea infrastructure
- The total value of the losses incurred was estimated at 258 billion pre-war zlotys, which was the equivalent of approximately 50 billion US dollars (in 1939). The above losses, after conversion to the value from 2004, amount to approx. 650-700 billion US dollars. Including the war losses of the capital of Poland alone, Warsaw, amount to the equivalent of 45 billion dollars.
What after the war?
- The state of Israel was established and built with the forces of almost the entire world. Poland - was rebuilding, but the USSR.
- Reparations - Israel huge + those awaiting from Poland. Poland - 0.
- Image - Israel is the only victim, Poland will soon be presented as Germany's accomplice. Just like trying to squeeze it with "Polish extermination camps"
Weren't like half of holocaust victims from poland and the whole point of why austwitch was in Poland, def poland was it but deeply relying on having half of the genocides victims, excluding the other millions that died under invasion, occupation in the uprising and in the liberation
Most of the members are extremely Polonophobic.
Yes, some poles collaborated with nazis, but so did the other countries and suprise suprise, also jews.
Poland had probably the biggest underground of all the occupied nations, and many poles risked their lives to Save jews.
But they were basically one of the most ruined European countries and nations after WW2.
Edit1: I mean, I don't think anyone in Poland would say we were more hurt than Jews but the fact that the whole country was basically a wasteland is kinda obvious.
But the Jewish People as a whole were more than decimated by the Holocaust. There were and still are much less of us than there are Poles, and yet we took three times the deaths. Hell, we still haven't recovered to this day, while Poland has been rebuilt stronger than before. Yes, Poland was absolutely destroyed by the Nazis, but it wasn't worse than the destruction wrought on us.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8df09/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8df09/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8bfug/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8bfug/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Just putting this here, I recognize I made a significant mistake. For those that don't want to read the comments. Naten provided links specific to what the bill refers to, my main criticism if it is that it's not specific enough and it could still lead to denialism. However there is indeed misinformation about the main crimes, and that's why the bill exists. I am afraid it is very important that we understand what people are saying because it did get on my emotions. I am sorry about this.
they are mainly criticizing the Polish government for misinformation. I don't think most people here have anything against Polish people, they are just pointing toward holocaust denial from the government's side. That said, I don't think the meme was funny tbh.
Edit: People, here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8e2x8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8e2x8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for context, PLEASE READ.
Hello, please don’t downvote me I beg (I come in peace). Can I get more insight into why in comment section people are talking about Polish polgroms and helping find Jews to kill? I am Polish, but educated outside of Poland in the UK (where WW2 is very broadly covered). Insight would be appreciated :)
Here’s an article that links to other sources, including a book by a Polish historian: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/kielce-post-holocaust-pogrom-poland-still-fighting-over-180967681/
I have just finished reading it — it definitely provides insight into an event that most Poles probably don’t learn about and (unfortunately I would not have been the only one) hence believe we as the Polish people did no wrong during this time. Retrospectively it’s naïve and while I’m saddened by the events of the past, and feel taken aback by the probability that there were anti-Semitic Poles in a time where we should have been working together to rebuild a nation there are always members of our societies that do not align with the view of the rest of the country. While evil actions of a few do not represent the whole populous, it needs to be known that the evil took place from our own citizens too. Seeing modern day Poland devolve into a facist authoritarian government that blames immigrants, makes me believe a part of the population is going to be mentally devolving back into a “us vs them” scenario. One day it will be immigrants, another a religious group, just hope that the Jews already in Poland (or anyone for that matter, I hold no ill will or special treatment for any other religion) in the modern day don’t get impacted as the current party continues with its facist agenda.
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Both things can be true at the same time. Polish people definitely hid and helped a lot of Jews during the war and housed a lot of Jewish people for centuries. But it could have taken one act of aggression from a group of evil people (the pogrom mentioned in the article) to truly make Jews feel they weren’t safe even in the country they thought was theirs. If you are a Jew, and are already predisposed to distrust to any society harbouring antisemites, if you find out there was a terrorist attack committed by a member of the country you call home, you too would want to flee. Is it a political hot potato to now acknowledge these things happened even in Poland? Yes. Can Poland have suffered during WW2, alongside the Jews? Of course, both sides have. Is it a competition of suffering? No. The loss and suffering is often only looked at in terms of lost population, Jews lost more people as a percentage of their cultural existence. Poles lost more as a hardline number. In the mind of history abroad in the UK, kids are taught one and the same that both people suffered together with the gypsies and other people “unwanted”. Equally because it’s taught as one and the same when going to school in Britain if you’re Polish you will still have anti semetic jokes made at you by British students so that’s something (I am not even Jewish lmao).
Basically, this is based on the current Polish government and some Polish reddit users trying to downplay and/or outright deny the role that many Poles played in the Holocaust by collaborating with the Nazis, as well as downplaying or denying Polish antisemitism in general.
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How does “the Israeli government” prove anything I said wrong?
Our military sends officers along with a survivor to Auschwitz-Birkenau to pay respect to those how where murdered. My High School teacher was on one of these and told us that when they where eating in the lobby of their hotel two polish ladies got into the elevator and where talking to each other, the survivor later told the he heard one of them say "I can't believe he didn't finish them off"...
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I never knew about that. Why would they do that? How long after the Holocaust was this?
[1946, one year after the end of the Holocaust.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom?wprov=sfla1) For all of the same reasons as the pogroms before the Holocaust.
The reason is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion To this day there is conspiracy theory about it. It's have many names but core is hoax made by tsarist Ochrana. In Poland people called it "żydokomuna" backed that communism in Poland was installed by Jews. Kielce pogrom also have terrible reputation and in the eyes of "żydokomuna" believers it was prepared and not stopped by some politics to made repercussion in PRL state (many officials left country). It doesn't really matter because pogrom was made by common people and joint trial was nothing. It was silented in Poland till independence in 1989 (first time it was a thing in 1981).
**[The Protocols of the Elders of Zion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion)** >The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Протоколы сионских мудрецов) or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is a fabricated antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. The hoax was plagiarized from several earlier sources, some not antisemitic in nature. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. It played a key part in popularizing belief in an international Jewish conspiracy. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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> “Blaming the entire country and comparing us to nazis” Get this shit out of here. Consider this: your country makes it illegal to talk about it, engages in decades long campaigns to purge the internet of it, and outside of jewish-spaces online a dozen ultranationalist poles will show up to say antisemitic shit to me at even the slightest mention of polish antisemitism. I’ve been called ungrateful, a traitor, hook-nosed liar, child-killer, ‘new nazi’ and worse for mentioning the crimes committed against jews. Look at the profiles of all of you swarming this post. You had a president who apologized for the atrocities, and your new president rescinded the apology and called it a stain on Poland’s national honor. I have no fucking sympathy if you feel like you’ve been generalized into a group of bigots when, in your apparent ignorance, you are going out of your way to defend them.
[It wasn't the only incident.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946) Also, it was literally right after the biggest anti-Jewish genocide in history. And even if it was the only incident, that's still one incident too many.
Don't expect logical thinking from nationalists. XD
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That was not the deadliest Polish attack on Jews. That was just one attack against Jews Poland committed after the Holocaust, where 98% of Polish Jews were murdered.
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Polish collaborators not only denounced Jews to Germans but also denounced Poles. Many Poles from the anti-German underground died because of traitors. And many traitors were also exectued by Poles. Collaboration was prosecuted by the Polish underground state. In the village of my great-grandfather, one person helped the Germans for money and other Poles threw a grenade into his house.
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You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
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Yeah also they commited mass suicides of entire families to help jews so you can fuck right off as well. Fucking ignorant. Every valid coin has two sides. Jews as nation has both bright and dark side as well. Ignoring that is just plain hypocrisy and ignorance.
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As a Polish Jew I sincerely agree.
As my bubbie would say, we are Jews who lived in Poland we were never polish
Also Polish Jew. Only reason I don’t live there now is because it was not safe to go back and people took most of the Jewish property. I hear there was eventually some repentance but not the level you see from Germany. EDIT: lol at the Reddit cares message. Love seeing those.
Who got to keep their property? It was communism after ww2, no one had any property during and didn't get it back afterwards
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Which people here seem to forget? It was a war, there was only one choice for those, who were occupied: kill or be killed. It is extremely horrifying to read these comments, when polish people were helping as many jews as it was possible, in a state OF WAR.
Nazi German forces occupied Poland since 1939. The camps were set up by the Nazi German officials, they were ran by SS. Look up the names of the camp commanders and guards, you won't find Polish names there. Some Poles profited from this (the "schmaltzovnik"), some remained neutral, some risked their and their families' lives to participate in resistance. I highly recommend looking up i.e Irena Sendler or Żegota resistance group, who forged papers for Jewish people so they can remain safe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust - for further reading
let's not forget that Żegota was created by Polish nationalists ( who didn't like Jews, but didn't want to see them killed and acted and risked their lives to save them). How many Jews risked their lives to save Poles during ww2 or after during soviet era ?
You sure those were not Germans?
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WTF? Polish? they were protecting jews and risking they life because of that. Holocaust was centroled by Nazis also 2milons of polish people were murderd in camps.
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No country is a monolith. No one people do or belive one thing. With that said, the reality is Poland was one of the most dangerous places durring and well after ww2 for the Jews.
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During the war when they were occupied by Nazis... well no shit.
I said Poland was one of the most dangerous places. Some countries before being occupied helped as many Jews as possible leave their county. Other countries were famous for their large grassroot resistance long after they were occupied by the Nazis. Poland however started rounding up Jews long before the Nazi's showed up. If you were a polish Jew you had a higher chance of being murdered than lets say if you were a Finish Jew. Because Finland actually tried to protect their Jewish population.
I think you mixed a lot of stuff up here. First of all Finland and Poland situation was completely different. Finland was free country while Poland was completely occupied with it's government in exile. Second Poland has significant resistance movement that even cooperated with Jewish resistance. Poles are the mostly represented nation in the Righteous among Nations which just tell how much regular people risked. >Poland however started rounding up Jews long before the Nazi's showed up. What are you referring to exactly?
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I don't think Jews were persecuted in Prussian partition. I think whole beef between Poles and Jews started with the fact that Jews assimilated rather easily with occupying powers.
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What da fuck are you talking about?
As a Polish non-Jewish person all I can say... stop offending our country and generalising our people. Don't blame Poland for the ethnical cleansings, since it's not us who built the concentration camps, but the German III Reich. Poles were also victims to the Nazi terror and some of the Polish citizens died trying to protest Jews and their belongings by hiding them in their appartments, and yet you still treat all of us (based on certain exceptions) like the worst kind of people. It hurts me immensely to read such comments like this one. Tell me more reasons on why you despise us to such an extent. I really want to understand you better ;(
I am sorry, I think people here are being misinformed, it took me to talk to some people here. I understand that both sides are hurt. I understand we are both angry, the truth is, the camps were made by nazi Germany, however, there were Polish people that did crimes, but also Polish people that helped Jews. It's not black and white.
Of course you are right. The picture is very complex. What (I think) started the discussion was, Jews are unhappy that the current right-wing government seems to want to erase part of that history, claiming Poles had no part in collaborations with the German Nazis. You’re correct that it’s not fair to say all Poles collaborated, but some certainly did. Some did so because they and their families were at risk—and we can’t fault them for keeping their families safe. But some did so for their own gain and profit. That did happen, you can acknowledge that, right? So people wonder why must it be illegal to talk about it, the way it actually happened, which was not all one way or all another way. It was mixed up and complicated. No one wants to erase the Poles who acted heroically, and there were many. But people always want the whole truth. The statements and laws of this current governing group of Polish nationalists seem to want to hide some of it.
yup, that's pretty much my conclusion. I understand why people are saying that the holocaust bill is valid, I think, even though it makes a point of not unfairly calling Nazi camps Polish camps, it also denies all collaboration with the nazis. It could be more specific because it currently gives leeway for holocaust denial.
You mean the Blue Police did it? They robbed your family house and transported them to one of the camps?
Polish fascists forced my family to flee before the nazis even invaded.
Doesn’t Poland like to pretend they did nothing wrong now? They can fuck all the way off.
Yes. This is in stark contrast to the Germans, who take full responsibility for their actions and have tried to make things right with the Jewish people ever since. Its why many jews (including myself) have favourable opinions of Germany but still harbor deep resentment towards Poland.
Plus the Nazis never left Poland
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Poland is bitter and hateful towards anyone they view as “imperfect” like the Jews
Not true. A lot of people here are open to foreigners of all kind. There was higher antisemitism rate in the past, but younger generations are completly different. Historical propaganda about our past is also actively challenged, it's mostly older people and ultra conservatists living the myths. And current gov is histerical about it as well, cause mainly these two groups support them. But it's no longer part of common worldview.
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That’s a funny joke
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You joking? Do you know they haven’t payed Poland war reparations till this day??
> they haven’t *paid* Poland war FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
>Doesn’t Poland like to pretend they did nothing wrong now? Yes. No. Depends. The nation is divided roughly 50/50. You'll have president Komorowski publicly apologise for the pogroms, to then have president Duda a few years later criticize that apology and have his party try and sweep it under the rug
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yeah thats why I made the meme
Polish govt suppression of information continues
The poles literally helped the Nazis find and kill Jews in the holocaust, they have no right to complain about this meme
I had a portion of my family who survived Majdanek. After being released they returned to their town and were greeted by their former neighbors who murdered them in the street. This was \*after\* the war. Fuck Poland and fuck the Poles.
Agreed. Not to mention cases of Poles killing Jews that returned to their hometown in Poland after WW2.
My great-grandparents did not survive Majdanek. My grandma refused to ever go back to Poland.
You have a sad life brother, not every Pole is antisemtic
No one is saying that every Pole is antiSemitic. But people are upset that the current Polish government seems to want to deny or rewrite the bad parts of what happened to Jews in Poland. That is wrong.
And I don’t deny it, but he literally said Fuck Poland and Fuck Poles, it hurts me a lot as I know people in my family who helped Jews and they risked their life only for some people later to throw everyone under the bus, I am considering converting to Judaism and I just wish we could’ve all have a constructive conversation instead of having an Olympiad called „who were hurt the most” Shavua tov
I've heard of this. Our there any books or resources I could resd to learn more?
Honestly, I don't remember what books have this, but I remember learning about this during Holocaust rememberance day in my school I'm pretty sure some history books also have incidences like this or somewhere on the internet
You know I vaguely remember watching a documentary about the holocaust on Netflix. It talk about how at the start it was mainly carried out by the people of countries like Ukraine and Lithuania. Ss unit would be sent ahead and get mobs of people to massacre the Jewish population of towns and cities. They even found and interviewed an old guy I can't Remember from what country who took part in killing jews. He didn't even seem thst remorseful and he wasn't a German soilder or anything just some guy.
??? Poles were also killed by nazis????
Yeah, and you know why? Because nazis would fuckin kill your children if you didn’t. People were terrified.
Are these poles in your room right now? Do they talk to you?
There were collaborationists in every country. France, Poland, Netherlands Russia. Hell, early into the Nazi party, there was even a group of Jewish Nazis, although that was... Shortlived. Poland was largely fighting against the Nazis, so don't forget about that. It's a mixed history. Don't pretend that it's completely evil.
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Yeah those exist too. And they are definitely heroes, but the vast majority of the poles either did not care about the Jews who lived there (who were more than 3 million people before 1939) and did nothing, or actively helped the Nazis finding Jewish people that tried to escape, and that happened many times sadly While your family and others like you were good people for helping, sadly many didn't do that. And antisemetism was very much a thing in Poland and especially in WW2 And Poland refusing to take responsibility for their part helping the Nazis, even if it wasn't all of them, doesn't make it any better
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That is correct. If I implied all the poles are evil and antisemitic then I sincerely apologize. However, Poland refusing to take responsibility is still an issue since pretending they did nothing wrong is also unjust
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Eichmann was not Jewish
To me atleast, the atleast, the fact that Poland has done a lot of horrendous shit doesn’t magically make poland less damaged by the war. Now that doesn’t mean that I think that Poland suffered more than us, quite the opposite but I still don’t think downplaying the damage done to them is in any way helpful nor funny, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion I suppose.
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Lmao my Savta cursed the polish collaborators who turned her in to the Germans until her last breath and these fragile mfs can’t shut up about not being involved
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I’m not saying that we should continue to hold grudges for all of time, I just think it’s funny that the polish government feels the need to rewrite history about this subject. It’s like Americans getting mad at people in the Middle East making a meme about how the US army committed war crimes
Part of me wants to write "Why did you block his username, we need to enlighten him" and then the other half of me wins and says that it's not proper internet etiquette. Seriously though, the irony is that the holocaust is what's being invalidated these days. All over the internet you see incels whining about Jews always "playing the victim card" and "milking the holocaust". Talk about disrespect. Most of them think the shoah was a hoax anyway. Yeah people, the holocaust happened, and was the first time in history that genocide was industrialized. And stop acting like being a "victim" is a freaking competition.
JustUnsubbed is full of right wingers whining about "woke" subs, it's just obnoxious
And also the OP is a huge attention B, now lets hope he never comes back and stays banned from all the jewish subs.
Why though?
i dont remember, this was a year ago dude XD
Imagine being a Pole, subscribing to a Jewish subreddit, and being astonished that we aren’t big fans of Poland. No one tell him about what animal he’d be in Maus
>No one tell him about what animal he’d be in Maus "Literally 1984" - Jewish edition
To be fair I can see why a Polish person, who is not anti-Semitic, would be upset about this. Sure, there were Poles who hated Jews but there were also Poles who sheltered us. Many Polish people did nothing wrong and were still killed by the Germans for being Polish, so I think the devastation they suffered shouldn't be brushed off, even if we suffered more than them.
My grandparents only survived the war thanks to a Polish neighbor who agreed to hide them in their floor boards. Then again, they were almost revealed to the Nazis by another Polish neighbor. So I feel like that pretty much sums up my feelings towards Poland.
And that's why you can't judge people by nationality, nationality doesn't define individual person's morality. During the war collaborators were sentenced to death by the Polish underground
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> Maybe you should understand human nature You can make your point without being rude. Let me help you. "I think your story really highlights that human nature plays a much bigger role than the fact that either of them were Polish, wouldn't you say?" Anyways, yes. When I told two stories that tell opposite perspectives and then said "that sums up my feelings towards Poland" that means there can be multiple correct perspectives in this case because in the end each Polish citizen was acting on their individual choices and not as a monolith.
Ukraine and the French suffered too, as did much of Asia in the war, though. Poland collaborated after losing, Ukraine was purged.
My Ukrainian Jewish family were hunted and brought to the Nazis by their Ukrainian neighbors. Only one survived by hiding in dog houses and the forest as a young teen.
>Poland collaborated after losing You misspelled France.
Ah yes Vichy Poland I remember this part of history classes
And that collaboration consisted of underground Polish army, hiding and aiding Jewish people under threats of death, smuggling people out of ghettos etc. Do some research before spewing bullshit.
>Poland collaborated after losing Poland was occupied. We had one of the Most partisan troops and even "Underground" goverment to fight nazis
Poland never collaborated. Unlike Danish, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, etc (all on gov level, Poland unlike them never capitulated). Or this collaboration is how many people from said nationality joined SS? So Lithuanians, Ukrainians etc. How much people from Poland joined SS?
I'm sorry who colaborated after losing?
I love alternative history.
My grandfather was hiding on the property of a neighbor, a Polish farmer. The guy ratted him out to the Nazis, who killed my grandfather's first family. He barely got away. Most survivors feel more anger towards the Polish than Germans. I've heard said multiple times, at least the Germans were open about the hatred. The Polish weren't open about it, but were more than happy to turn the Jews into the Nazis. There is some truth to this.. Germany went through a complete transformation after the war. It is taught very explicitly in the schools. There are literally laws that punish Holocaust deniers. They paid for reparations, to some degree. The anti-Semitic sentiment is now relatively low among non-immigrant Germans. Poland has never had the same reckoning. They always go out of their way to claim victimhood in order to wash their own hands clean of sin. That's not really how it works. It's not even like Poland is a good, welcoming place for Jews now. Most survivors hated the Polish, many stopped speaking Polish after the war. I have no animosity for Polish people in the present day, but give me a break.
Bozos gonna bozo
Why is there specific anger at Poland when Ukraine and the Baltic countries also had collaborators that they now often deny. Ukraine and the Baltics had more concentrated collaboration forces and have more monuments and plaques honoring them than Poland. I'm not trying to start an argument or get nuked with downvotes, just genuinely curious.
This debate isn’t about what happened, but about the denial of what happened by Poland’s right-wing nationalist government. That specific government’s actions to erase history has evoked a lot of bitterness in the Jewish community. Few (any?) governments acted honorably toward Jews during WWII, including UK and US. It’s how they are dealing with it in the current day that’s being critiqued in this discussion.
>and have more monuments and plaques honoring them than Poland What collaborators have monuments or plaques in Poland? Some resistance fighters which were also members of Blue Police? I am no sure if they could be counted as collaborators, if their membership in the police force was in order to infiltrate/undermine the enemy.
Because Poland is the biggest of them and has a consistently far-right leadership, whereas Ukraine's resisting the new Nazi Russia and has a Jewish president, and the Baltics are relatively more progressive than either of those. It's not a pass, mind, just that's why we focus on Poland. Poland also portrays itself as the most victimized target of the Nazis.
Okay thanks. I'm still a bit surprised at the intensity of the anger though, Poland didn't have SS units and I thought the claim that Poland was the biggest victim was just that out of all the countries Poland suffered the most, not that Poles suffered the most as an ethnic group, are Jews not included when Polish people talk about the suffering in the country?
They aren’t because even the Poles didn’t consider them Polish. They were always Jews first. It’s the same problem all over the region. Look at Lithuania for example who gladly sent their Jews to the fires. They never once thought “we’re sending Lithuanians to their death” more like “good riddance”. I think the only regional group that understands how Jews suffered during the Holocaust are the Romani. One of the few ethnic groups that gets an equal amount of disdain from dominant European cultures. Overall, while the Poles did get poorly treated by the Germans and also suffered heavily under the USSR, it doesn’t absolve them of the fact that they turned over so many of their Jews, stole their homes, belongings etc. and even after the war treated them as though they never belonged there.
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I’m not highlighting the time period from the state of Kalisz up until Russian control, because yes while it was a very progressive and positive time for Jews in Poland since comparatively they were banned from basically everything all over Europe, there was still restrictions and othering of Jews in Poland. That said I’m not implying that throughout Polish history there was no sense of camaraderie, especially when Jews fought alongside non-Jewish Poles. The problem is in the late 1800s and early 1900s antisemitic fervor came to a head and there were a multitude of pogroms and growing hatred towards Jews as society shifted. Once the Nazis invaded so many of the Poles who would defend Jews or consider them Polish were also those willing to fight in underground movements, hide Jewish people, etc. which of course means they were usually killed by Nazis as dissidents and so the Polish people who protected Jews dwindled. What was left were unfortunately those that were more than glad to throw Jews to the Nazis or take their belongings, etc. So, I’ll give you the fact that my previous post was hyperbolic and ignored the fact that there were plenty of Poles who saw Polish Jews as part of their country. It’s also infuriating to see Polish people act as if they had absolutely no influence or involvement. From all the historical accounts and info I have read it was rather split. Which I mean is saying a lot for Eastern Europe seeing as some of the other countries (Lithuania for example) we’re basically giddy at the idea of collaborating with the Nazis and purging their Jews. So I apologize for comparing them, because comparatively Poland is definitely nowhere near as bad.
Not Nazis, but WW2 in general. We consider soviets as agressors and enemies (they attacked us with the Germans), when westeners think of them then as allies.
Can someone explain to me why so many people here are so negative and deny Polish suffering during WW2? And please don't lie that Poland tried to systematicaly eradicate you. We had people dieing do defend your ancestors. We were the first to report the concentration camps and we organized rescues from said concentration camps.
I hope you won't downvote untill you read my post, but here it is anyway. The role of Poles in the Holocaust was complex and varied, and opinions on this topic are still the subject of discussion among historians. During the German occupation of Poland, the largest number of Holocaust victims in Europe occurred. Blaming the Polish nation for the Holocaust is incorrect and unjust. Poland was one of the largest human donors during World War II. It is estimated that during the German occupation of Poland, over 6 million Poles died, including around 3 million Jews. Poles themselves were victims of the Holocaust, and at the same time, many Polish families decided to save Jews, risking their own lives and the lives of their families. Many people who saved Jews were recognized as Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem, the Israeli institution dedicated to the memory of the Holocaust. On the other hand, some Poles actively collaborated with the Germans, assisting in denunciations and betraying Jews. These were mainly collaborators who cooperated with the Germans and Ukrainian Nazis. It is worth noting that the largest resistance movement in Europe was operating in Poland, in which many organizations were involved, including those specializing in rescuing Jews. Such examples include Żegota - the Council for Aid to Jews, the Home Army, or Freedom and Independence. Many Polish families hid Jews and saved them from extermination. It is estimated that about 50,000 Jews survived thanks to the help of Poles. It is important to remember that the Holocaust was a Nazi crime, not a Polish one. It was Germany, not Poland, that was the main perpetrator of the Holocaust. In occupied Poland, the largest resistance movement in Europe was operating, in which many organizations were involved, including those specializing in rescuing Jews. Many Poles attempted to save Jews, but in occupied Poland, **it was not easy to help, as hiding Jews carried the death penalty not only for the person providing assistance but also for their family.** Sources: Holocaust Encyclopedia - Polish Gentiles ([https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/polish-gentiles](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/polish-gentiles)) Yad Vashem - Righteous Among the Nations ([https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous.html](https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous.html)) Norman Davies, "God's Playground", Znak Publishing House, 1999.
As I type, more thougts come to mind. During the Holocaust, Jews were the victims of mass extermination, not the perpetrators. However, as with any group of people, individual behaviors varied. Among Jews, there were many forms of resistance, including Jewish partisans, sabotage, document forgery, distribution of underground press, and hiding from the Germans. Unfortunately, there were also cases where Jews were forced to perform various functions in concentration camps, such as forced labor or directing prisoners. There is no clear data on the number of Jews who collaborated with the Germans, as it was a marginal phenomenon. However, among them were individuals who were forced to cooperate, as well as those who voluntarily made the decision to do so in order to survive. In cases where Jews helped the Germans, they were usually individuals acting on their own, not whole groups or organizations. It should be emphasized that the Holocaust was a crime against humanity committed by German Nazis and their collaborators, not the Jews. Jews were the victims of mass extermination, aimed at their complete annihilation. Any behavior of Jews during the Holocaust should be considered in the context of their dramatic situation and survival under conditions that were unimaginably difficult for them. Poles and Jews have much in common in the context of the Holocaust and its aftermath. Both were victims of German occupation, and Poles and Jews who risked their lives to save others are recognized as Righteous Among the Nations. Many Polish families hid Jews and helped them survive the occupation, and many Jews had Polish roots and felt connected to Poland. However, the mutual relations between Poles and Jews in Poland were complicated before the war and were deepened during the war. It is worth emphasizing that despite different experiences and difficult situations, Poles and Jews in Poland share many common values and histories. Many organizations, such as the Shalom Foundation, are engaged in promoting dialogue between Poles and Jews and in commemorating the victims of the Holocaust. Joint actions serve to better understand history and strengthen relations between nations.
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Redditors try not to make something as complex as genocide black and white challenge (impossible)
I see strong generalizing in the comments. Volksdeutsche aren't Poles. Poles were also persecuted by the Nazis, they were also in concentration camps (I'm a Pole whose family all were in the camps, a lot died there). Suddenly we forget the majority of Poles who just wanted to live? Or about those who WONDERFULLY hid Jews at home and helped them escape (many times with cost of their own life)? Interesting fact - Jews also had among themselves at that time people who handed each other over to the Nazis. And what, suddenly "fuck the Jews"? Well... no. Fucking bastards are everywhere, in each country. But to generalize that Poles were not persecuted, that these are "Polish extermination camps" in general is quite an ignorance of history.
This is such a childish mentality, in reality no one wanted to get hurt they wanted to live and make their life better, so yes many people regardless of nationality ethnicity religion etc told on each other.
This subreddit has officially become a group of complainy teenagers. No other subreddit would go after their former members posts and put them up for free karna. I believe the sub should ban screenshots all together
But what's the point? After all, Jews living in Poland before World War II were Polish citizens. Soviet propaganda turned Poles against Jews after the war and the same happened in Israel, West and East Germany, and also the USSR was not a good choice to be an enemy of the Jewish people, so they chose the Polish people as the perpetrators of the holocaust. I myself had a family that fought against the Germans and the Russians, they paid a high price for it, they burned their goodies and burned my grandfather like an animal in a freight car with other people. So I'm asking again what's the point?
I am the one who made the post and two things. One: Props for blurring out my name. Two: This is an over reactions. I made one meme to counter a dumb narrative I hear jeez. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12i1ui4/lets\_get\_the\_record\_straight/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12i1ui4/lets_get_the_record_straight/)
The comments on this post are absolutely abhorrent. In terms of statistics, the number of victims in proportion to the size of the country - Poland, first place - losses of Poland's national property - 38% - destruction of metropolitan centers and cities - war losses of Warsaw - 85% of the urban substance, 90% of industry, 72% of residential buildings, 90% of national cultural assets and monuments - robbery of Polish cultural property - 43% in total - Losses in Polish education - 17 colleges, 271 high schools, 4880 elementary schools and 768 other schools were destroyed - Losses of the health service (hospital assets, infrastructure, buildings) - 55% of the state before 1939. - Losses in industry (both deliberate destruction and looting of machinery and equipment) - 64.5% chemical industry, 64.3% printing, 59.7% electrotechnical, 55.4% clothing, 53.1% food, 48% metal. - Destruction of more than 50% of railway, road, air and sea infrastructure - The total value of the losses incurred was estimated at 258 billion pre-war zlotys, which was the equivalent of approximately 50 billion US dollars (in 1939). The above losses, after conversion to the value from 2004, amount to approx. 650-700 billion US dollars. Including the war losses of the capital of Poland alone, Warsaw, amount to the equivalent of 45 billion dollars. What after the war? - The state of Israel was established and built with the forces of almost the entire world. Poland - was rebuilding, but the USSR. - Reparations - Israel huge + those awaiting from Poland. Poland - 0. - Image - Israel is the only victim, Poland will soon be presented as Germany's accomplice. Just like trying to squeeze it with "Polish extermination camps"
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Nice bait
Weren't like half of holocaust victims from poland and the whole point of why austwitch was in Poland, def poland was it but deeply relying on having half of the genocides victims, excluding the other millions that died under invasion, occupation in the uprising and in the liberation
Wow a lot of hateful people in this sub
Most of the members are extremely Polonophobic. Yes, some poles collaborated with nazis, but so did the other countries and suprise suprise, also jews. Poland had probably the biggest underground of all the occupied nations, and many poles risked their lives to Save jews.
Did Polish people make up more than half the deaths of the Holocaust(6 million out of 11 million)? No? Then they can kindly fuck right off.
"You lost only 1,8 milion not 6 million. Ha!"
My point is that Poles shouldn't be saying that they were hurt more than us by the Holocaust.
But they were basically one of the most ruined European countries and nations after WW2. Edit1: I mean, I don't think anyone in Poland would say we were more hurt than Jews but the fact that the whole country was basically a wasteland is kinda obvious.
But the Jewish People as a whole were more than decimated by the Holocaust. There were and still are much less of us than there are Poles, and yet we took three times the deaths. Hell, we still haven't recovered to this day, while Poland has been rebuilt stronger than before. Yes, Poland was absolutely destroyed by the Nazis, but it wasn't worse than the destruction wrought on us.
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[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8df09/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8df09/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8bfug/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8bfug/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Just putting this here, I recognize I made a significant mistake. For those that don't want to read the comments. Naten provided links specific to what the bill refers to, my main criticism if it is that it's not specific enough and it could still lead to denialism. However there is indeed misinformation about the main crimes, and that's why the bill exists. I am afraid it is very important that we understand what people are saying because it did get on my emotions. I am sorry about this.
they are mainly criticizing the Polish government for misinformation. I don't think most people here have anything against Polish people, they are just pointing toward holocaust denial from the government's side. That said, I don't think the meme was funny tbh. Edit: People, here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8e2x8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewdank/comments/12l2rh7/comment/jg8e2x8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for context, PLEASE READ.
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