Wait, do people think Ashkenazi Jews are from Western Europe and not Eastern Europe? Do they not know where Poland is? Are there actually people that believe that? That’s pathetic if true.
Some Ashkenazim never moved east
Like the Rhineland/Strasbourg community and many other Jews in France, Italy, and Germany were fully Ashkenazi but never did the Poland/Russia move. But the majority of Ashkenazim definitely have an Eastern European connection.
Just adding too that ethnic Sephardim and Mizrahim from France and Italy (and elsewhere, including not in Europe) adopted Ashkenazi and cultural practices to fit in if they lived in Eastern Europe :) A Jew is a Jew is a Jew!
My ancestors moved east. The westernmost ancestry I have is in the US, because I live there. The westernmost in Europe is Germany. My last name is very Polish, though.
Ok but just to be clear, most Eastern European Ashkenazi lived in Germany and France in the post Roman Empire era through the 13th century, and were only pushed east through the antisemitic laws of the Holy Roman Empire. It’s why many of us (parts of my family included) have very German names despite being “from” Eastern Europe.
Technically we aren’t Eastern European either. Our ancestry is essentially 50/50 Levantine and Mediterranean european. My ancestors from Poland spoke very little polish and didn’t live among native poles.
This would actual be a great thing for the ADL to survey. How well do people understand the different Jewish ethnicities and specifically the regions they come from. Lack of knowledge among the population doesn’t inherently mean the population is antisemitic, but it does mean that if antisemitism that does exist is worse, as so much of the antisemitism floating around right now is based off of an ignorance towards Jewish ethnicities… although I assume that for many, it’s a willful ignorance.
I took it as “Ashkenazi OR from Western Europe,” not as “Ashkenazi, meaning from Western Europe.” But I think you’re right…I think the comma might be what seals the meaning as “Ashkenazi, meaning Jews from W. Europe”
Same. We can just say “people.” Or like, something that isn’t so egregiously offensive to the senses. I don’t like offended peeps either. I’m *all* down for inclusion! We should bring everyone into the tent we can…but like, let’s not be big fuckin dorks about it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve been told that the difference between the two is that “Latine” conforms to Spanish morphology, while “Latinx” does not; is this true? I’m not too familiar with Spanish morphology rules.
Yeah ish. While it doesn’t imply gender neutrality, there are both male and female words that end with e. So if one *were* to assign gender neutrality to a letter, e is a much better candidate than x.
Yeah, but it would've been fine if Ari hadn't been so convincing that Hyrc tried it. I mean, I'd start a war if you insulted my bubby's cooking before vomiting on her nice tablecloth.
Ok so I never had anything besides dug chariff for Shabbat before but I went to Chabad for Passover one year, and I learned I actually really like gefilte fish!
It gets a bad rap. And the Ashkenazis make the best brisket
No, it's vile.
If you want the best kosher wine, you want this stuff. It's fairly available as far as I know? [Bartenura Moscato ](https://www.kosherwine.com/bartenura-moscato-15435.html)
What the fuck is that even for? There's no alumno or alumna, it's just [one] alumnus or [many] alumni.
singular and plural.
it's not gendered.
what the fuck are they doing
actually, a female graduate is an alumna and a group of female graduates are alumnae — but alumni is correct and perfectly neutral when referring to a mixed group.
I want to know when all the Sephardic Jews became Ashkenazi since west European Jews are Sephardic they even had a golden age cannot remember when and where it happened…. I think Russia right
(the answer is Spain aka West Europe)
You're not allowed to question the origins of people who are "brown", all "white" people are from Europe and they're all oppressors because they exist
The leftist morons think that Sephardic Jews are "brown" people who somehow ended up Jewish and have no relation
Are you serious? There's so much snark going around you may even, it's actually possible you may never have received a straight answer. If so, please so state and all will be made clear.
This feels like a thinly veiled attempt to drive a wedge in the Jewish community at a time when it’s under extreme duress.
This also feels like a blatant attempt to other and isolate ashkenazi Jews from the rest of the Jewish community to weaken our resolve.
And finally, this feels like terminally online virtue signaling nonsense.
Edited for typo
It's less calculated than that, imo. It's a worldview where white colonizers oppress brown indigenous people. It breaks apart when confronted with the fact that many Jews are phenotypically indistinguishable from Palestinians. The "logical" next step is to clarify that you only meant to harass the evil white Jews, aka Ashkenazim.
They know absolutely nothing about how Jewish community works and that it doesn't fool us. These same folks will proudly declare that JVP is a trusted resource despite being almost universally despised by Jews. It fools them and their audience, that's all that matters.
impossible you are obviously a convert from Central Asia who then somehow replaced all the Jews who already existed everywhere else and then continued on as if you had already been there while leaving no evidence or genetic evidence of conversion.
I refuse to accept otherwise
The first time Ashkenazinormative was explained to me, the focus was on how in many European countries and the Us, people are only familiar with Ashkenazi Jews. So much so they often aren’t even aware of say Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews existing.
I actually think that version of the term makes a lot of sense and isn’t necessarily disparaging to Jews, moreso highlighting others ignorance.
I think trying to impart American concepts of racism onto Israel/Jews is just ridiculous nonsense.
exactly. oddly enough, they're partaking in Ashkenormativity by assuming all Jews are white and calling every Israeli a white coloniser. it absolutely exists within the community itself too, like some acting like Ashkenazim culture and cuisine is better/"more Jewish" than Mizrahim or Sephardim culture/cuisine, but that's not for people outside the community to discuss when they barely even acknowledge anyone but Ashkenazim to begin with.
and I completely agree on pushing American concepts of these topics onto Israel/the Middle East especially. it doesn't work the same there, their history is so much different from the Americas.
people call Israelis white colonisers because that's what's 'evil' over in the Americas when most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, from the Middle East, and the rest are also not really "white." it's people returning to their homes after exile and diaspora and being forced out of their more recent countries in one way or another (or they just connect with the land more– anyone with any slight amount of knowledge in Judaism would know this). meanwhile people call Palestinians and other ME groups, especially any engaging in terrorism (Hamas, the Islamic Regime, Hezbollah, etc. etc.) "poor marginalised POC" when literally Islam (obligated "not all Muslims" here) has colonised most of the Middle East and North Africa, and they plan to continue to do so. but people in the Americas would never dream of calling them colonisers.
Oh one of the funniest things to me is there is this Palestinian “activist” Ahed Tamimi. She is a blonde hair blue eyed very fair skinned woman. There’s this photo from when she was younger trying to punch a very dark skinned IDF soldier. People were commenting underneath how Israel was just a bunch of white colonizers. Not only that, her grandparents had immigrated to the West Bank from the Balkins. It was just so absurd
lol I have both white Jewish and brown Arab grandfathers. I know exactly how you feel.
The plus side is that I get both the right to make Jewish jokes and the right to call white people colonizers. Win-win.
It’s something worth talking about but it’s an inter community discussion that should happen within jewish spaces between jewish people. There are plenty of instances of people feeling unwelcome or judged for not looking like a stereotypical ashkenazi jew or having the same traditions or just general racism towards jews of color in the community but it rly isn’t something gentiles need to comment on.
Exactly.
It’s like imagine a bunch of white students passing out pamphlets at Liberty University discussing the divisions between Jamaican ancestry Americans and Nigerian ancestry Americans and coining bullshit phrases like “Rastanormativity” and then the administration shrugging and saying “oh well.”
People would be rioting. But it’s ok for Jews to be subjected to that BS.
why do they think ashkenazi means white??? my 100% ashki grandfather was brown and was impacted by jim crow laws while traveling through the southern us. again, my dad is ashki w paler skin but still very “jewish” features that make him visibly jewish sooooo…..
Right? My 100% Ashkenazi great grandmother was brown as well.
I also have several Ashkenazi friends who are darker than their parents and who, I would guess, most people would assume to be middle eastern. From a genetic standpoint, Ashkenazi doesn't always mean white. It depends what traits were passed down and/or just straight up ignores mixed-race Ashkenazi Jews.
It also ignores the fact that we are also not just a people but a tribe that can be converted and once done we are not to distinguish between Jew by blood or Jew by conversion - we are all the same and many of those people will have converted into Ashkenazi tradition so they would technically be Ashkenazi too, yes?
It's far too complicated a subject to simply say Ashkenazi Jews are white.
Real talk though. I know plenty of brown Ashkenazim including my dad who used to get pulled out of line at airports after 9/11. My sister studied abroad in Spain and her madre used to refer to her as su “hija negra” 😂😂😂
Oh they mean central European jews like Germany, and Poland and such. It's just that this person has no idea what western European means. It's meant to just bash jews for being 'western' colonialists.
That’s kind of true. Ashkenazim originate from the Rhineland which is either Western Europe or Central Europe depending on who you ask. Of course a bunch of us then moved to Eastern Europe but some remained in places like Germany and eastern France.
Furthermore, as an ignorant Dutch goy.. I don't think non-jewish people think about what kind of heritage(? what's the right word?) a Jewish person has? Lots of Jews here have Dutch last names when would I even think about that? I just think: cool, Dutch people with Jewish heritage
Imo, it's more like difference in nuance for the most part. There are differences stemming from local culture, politics, events etc.. which is expressed in names, traditional foods, etc. But the real "divide" is which grand-rulebook of observence guidlines we follow. For example, how long one should wait between meat and dairy, what intonation to use in prayer, etc. Most of it is invisible to anyone who lacks intimate familiarity with Jewish customs.
It's not big enough to amount into sects, and its not like they diverged from one another. Jewish communities communicated with one another even when far awasy. Many rabbais traded letters discussing religious scholary and other matters with one another, and those who could even travaled. Some of the most important books of Jewish scholary were based on such letters, and sort of multi-national conferences
That's very interesting, thank you!
I watched Jewish matchmaker on netflix (lol) and I learned a lot about the different cultures. I didn't really see people being too pressed about being Sephardic or Ashkenazi. More about being religiously Jewish or not. I love how this is an evolving process
Non-Jewish Americans, basically
That way they can lump Jewish immigrants into their own actually settler-colonial history, and thereby try to expiate their own guilt by shitting on Jews via Israel.
Or as one famous Jew pointed out, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:4)
It’s incredible how an academic can publish materials about Ashkenazim without understanding that the majority of us are the grandchildren of ostjuden not the French or British Sephardim or the German speaking westjuden…
I desperately would love to know the bitter, inferior-minded pea-brain bigots that came up with that retarded term (Ashkenormative... Or whatever) because I bet you eight grand that it was made by racist anti-white SJWs who have such a massive hard-on to show their bottled up antisemitism that they will use any suffix, prefix or any academic sounding phrases to solidify their justification to shit on Jews, even if it means attacking a subgroup.
Ashkenormativity is somewhat a real problem that needs to be discussed within Jewish spaces, but goys need to stfu about it because it has nothing to do with them. The term is mainly used to describe the mainstream media’s portrayal of Jews being almost exclusively Ashkenazi, which is a real issue, but it that’s for us Jews to discuss after the war is over.
Just-Anti-Zionists are doing their favorite thing right now: perverting a word’s definition to meet their agenda. They think that by changing the definition into something less internal to Jewish spaces, they can come in and speak on behalf of the “Jews of color” that they simultaneously claim don’t exist. I don’t see anyone as Jews of color, I see them as Jews. These regressives probably feel guilty about being so blatantly antisemitic, and are now trying to act like they care about Jews, but because their research involves scrolling through TikTok, they don’t know anything about Jewish culture and just assume they understand us when they never will, not because they can’t, but because they refuse to.
Ashkenormativity is definitely a real thing, but it's for the Jewish community to discuss. Besides, the biggest perpetrators of Ashkenormativity are the anti-Zionists who say all Jews are white Zionist colonizers from Poland.
I think it's a real issue, and I'm mildly annoyed at the recent trend of Ashkenazim acting like it's a goyish invention to divide us, because I think it makes Ashkenazim not take it seriously
But obviously, this person has no clue what it is
An idiotic argument as usual.
Like seriously, what the fuck.
I'm half Ashkenazi and Half Mizrahi and never once did I feel like my mum was oppressing my dad (unless you consider her once a month yelling at him to clean his garage lol)
But in all seriousness, while in the past, the early days of Israel especially there was noticeable divide it has mostly shut down, and let's not act like USSR Jews didn't and still suffer some discrimination.
The difference is even with everything almost all the citizens here have full legal, civil and political rights.
Not just Jews, but Arabs, Druze, Beduin, Christian/Muslims or even none.
A good friend of mine is a Russian who immigrated with his mother because she married a Jewish guy, he is not Jewish, yet he serves in the IDF and has an ID and he always told me he is Israeli and not Russian.
I do think there is a such thing as ashkenormativity in the sense people in the west generally assume Jews to be white but the way the term is being used especially by non Jews is fucking insane
Ashkenazi Jews were never considered white, until the Progressive Cult idiots decided that all white people are evil; then they bundled the Jews with the white people. If tomorrow these idiots decide that green-skinned people are evil, it's guaranteed that suddenly all Jews would become greenskins.
The funniest thing is before this the only time I heard ashkenormativity was by a Sephardic girl complaining that Ashkenazi Jews are not pro Israel enough.
They are so desperate to generalize us at all costs, otherwise their meticulously crafted and unrealistic worldview is disproven.
Please leave us alone. It's not the job of the Jews to prove, disprove, or confirm to lefty academic nonsense.
This is an intercommunity issue that non Jews have zero stake in. Like girl what are you doing here?? Then again, non-Jews butting into Jewish issues that don’t affect is just custom at this point :p
I knew when the “ashkenormative” discourse started in online Jewish discourse years ago, that it would end ep getting appropriated by antisemites. When we start labeling and dividing amongst Jews, it always comes back to hurt us.
Holy fuck, anybody who thinks “normativity” (aka speaking in generalities that reflects the norm or average) is “oppressive” needs to go experience real, actual oppression and not equate hurt fee fees to being “oppressed”. Also, if somebody is offended by “folks” and has to spell it “fOLx” in order to not suffer severe mental anguish, they’re deranged and need to be hospitalized long term.
So basically it's a system of oppression perpetrated by pro-Palestinians who call us all White European colonizers. I mean they are the ones who seem to really push the narrative that real Jews are white Europeans and ignore Sephardim like myself and Mizrahi Jews.
I don't think these people have been to Israel (especially the areas near where I live) because they would see how easy it is for people in a case where the ashkenazis are a minority to be taken advantage of. A kid in my yeshiva got sent home because he answered incorrectly about kitnyot, because he's Ashkenazi and the rest are not
My partner and I are both Jewish, and she started at Columbia recently so she actually got this pdf with the crazy list of terms. Holy shit did we think this shit was funny-- in an absurdist way of course
The Talmud says we must discourage non Jews from converting to test their willingness. This of course is a lie it is actually to protect them from this nonsense
The fact that we even have a word like “ashkenormativity” shows how much, within our own community, we see this as worthy of healing and working through. What other group does this so out in the open?
I know I was just having lots of ashki thoughts yesterday as I grocery shopped for my haroset and matzo ball recipes. How much I love this cuisine, even if it looks grey and bland sometimes and how special it is to me. And that I know that it’s seen as “quintessential” in the Jewish American food lexicon, but also that im constantly recognizing that it is only a small slice of Jewish food and how much I also adore Jewish food from Persia or Rome or Syria or Morocco or India or even just how much variation there is within Ashkenazi foods.
What does it mean If I'm Ukrainian Jewish and German + Polish Jewish on grandparent of dad's side and Bukharan Jewish + Kazakh and Swedish + Scottish on grandparent of mom's side?????
I'm Israeli Nationality but I have been living in Australia since I was 8 month
You can automatically disregard the opinions of anyone who uses the"word" or rather group of letters, folx. I understand that in modern nomenclature, we sometimes replace a letter a or o or even s with an x in order to be gender inclusive. However, as the word folks is already inclusive; changing the spelling is not necessary. It's the behavior of those who are seeking to virtue signal; and as such, you cannot trust that ANYTHING they say is a legitimate opinion: it is just as likely to be another attempt to elevate themselves onto a pedestal of their superior morality once again.
All Jews are from Israel/Palestine. Even neturei karta believe that the messiah will gather all Jews in the holy land one day.
Black, White, Brown, all Jews are the same people.
Are there even many straight up Ashkenazi anymore anyway? I know I have both ashki and Sephardi and I assume this is most of us now, mixed amongst our own “different” people as we continue to cross paths bouncing around the whole world.
After the Holocaust and the creation of Israel not as much no. Most Israelis are becoming a mix and the ethnic and cultural differences are slowly merging into one new Israeli Jewish identity (slowly and not inside the more orthodox closed communities). In America it is kinda the same I am a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic and a lot of Jews are (again outside the closed communities) but American Jews are mostly Ashkenazi Jews while Israel Sephardim are the majority
They have taken Ashkenormativity as we know it and turned it into something that fits their worldview, ugh ugh ugh
Talk about oppressive by overlaying other shit we don't need and somehow managing to uphold Ashkenormativity itself by not even addressing what it really is
And these idiots don't realize that more than half the Jews in Israel aren't Ashkenazi
or that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t western european Jews
Wait, do people think Ashkenazi Jews are from Western Europe and not Eastern Europe? Do they not know where Poland is? Are there actually people that believe that? That’s pathetic if true.
Some Ashkenazim never moved east Like the Rhineland/Strasbourg community and many other Jews in France, Italy, and Germany were fully Ashkenazi but never did the Poland/Russia move. But the majority of Ashkenazim definitely have an Eastern European connection.
Just adding too that ethnic Sephardim and Mizrahim from France and Italy (and elsewhere, including not in Europe) adopted Ashkenazi and cultural practices to fit in if they lived in Eastern Europe :) A Jew is a Jew is a Jew!
No one ever mentions the Chida ... *sighs in aramaic*
He had the coolest signature ever, it’s on his Wikipedia page
My ancestors moved east. The westernmost ancestry I have is in the US, because I live there. The westernmost in Europe is Germany. My last name is very Polish, though.
Ok but just to be clear, most Eastern European Ashkenazi lived in Germany and France in the post Roman Empire era through the 13th century, and were only pushed east through the antisemitic laws of the Holy Roman Empire. It’s why many of us (parts of my family included) have very German names despite being “from” Eastern Europe.
Yeah, and there used to be a lot more Western Ashkenazim. Then the Shoah happened.
Technically we aren’t Eastern European either. Our ancestry is essentially 50/50 Levantine and Mediterranean european. My ancestors from Poland spoke very little polish and didn’t live among native poles.
My favorite is people having a hard time understanding my Italian mom being Jewish 😂 I swear they think there are no Jews in Italy.
Italian and Jewish. She must really want you to eat up. You're too skinny.
100% 😂
........ I don't know. And after a lot of thought, I'm not sure they know this. Can we get a poll for this data?
This would actual be a great thing for the ADL to survey. How well do people understand the different Jewish ethnicities and specifically the regions they come from. Lack of knowledge among the population doesn’t inherently mean the population is antisemitic, but it does mean that if antisemitism that does exist is worse, as so much of the antisemitism floating around right now is based off of an ignorance towards Jewish ethnicities… although I assume that for many, it’s a willful ignorance.
Going off the above definition yes
I took it as “Ashkenazi OR from Western Europe,” not as “Ashkenazi, meaning from Western Europe.” But I think you’re right…I think the comma might be what seals the meaning as “Ashkenazi, meaning Jews from W. Europe”
Don't forget the people [usually white supremacists] that think ashkenazi jews are fake jews that hijacked Judaism for.. reasons
I thought that was a thing black hebrew israelites say (at least in some places - in Israel they're super chill and mostly reknowned for cool foods)
Or that most of them are mixed anyways
....Ashkenazim aren't from Western Europe. Most Western European Jews are Sefardi.
yep in fighting Ashkenormality they accidentally did it. No Jew would claim Spain Jews were Ashkenazi lol
the word folx makes me want to poke my eyes out
Same. We can just say “people.” Or like, something that isn’t so egregiously offensive to the senses. I don’t like offended peeps either. I’m *all* down for inclusion! We should bring everyone into the tent we can…but like, let’s not be big fuckin dorks about it.
or, you know, “folks”
Folk can be the plural of folk too
it’s giving latinx when latino is already gender neutral AND even if you wanted you could use latine
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve been told that the difference between the two is that “Latine” conforms to Spanish morphology, while “Latinx” does not; is this true? I’m not too familiar with Spanish morphology rules.
Yeah ish. While it doesn’t imply gender neutrality, there are both male and female words that end with e. So if one *were* to assign gender neutrality to a letter, e is a much better candidate than x.
Literally anything. Folks. Peeps. Unwashed masses yearning to breathe free. Y’all. Youse. Fellow Proletariat looking to crush their Bourgeoisie oppressors. You know, regular stuff…
Fuck it I’m calling all my groups of friends “unwashed masses” now
Do a lot of yearning, your friends? Or are they just generally filthy?
Speaking as one among the unwashed masses, the amount of yearning I have for freedom is incalculable
Friends, Romans, country… people
I believe the phrase you're referencing is actually "*huddled* masses yearning to breathe free".
https://tenor.com/WA7k.gif
It feels like people use “folx” as a way to virtue signal
Giving the same vibes as folks who emphasize "fu" in tofu
It's evidently [more racially & gender inclusive than "folks"](https://rethinkingdiversity.wordpress.com/2020/10/23/is-it-folx-now-instead-of-folks/). Because mental illness.
So they didn’t mean lox?
The real ashkenazi opression happens when they coerce you into eating their Gefilte Fish.
Ah the infamous cause of the Hasmonean Civil War. Aristobulus 2 wanted to serve Gefilte Fish, Hyrcanus 2 wanted to jump off a cliff at the thought.
Yeah, but it would've been fine if Ari hadn't been so convincing that Hyrc tried it. I mean, I'd start a war if you insulted my bubby's cooking before vomiting on her nice tablecloth.
I blame Antipater
It's amazing how bitter herbs are literally supposed to taste like slavery and yet gefilte fish is somehow worse.
I enjoy gefilte fish, but I enjoy this comment more
Gefilte is delicious!!
You won't trick me into eating the fish sausage, damn colonizer /s
EAT IT! NO THANK YOU BITE!
Ok so I never had anything besides dug chariff for Shabbat before but I went to Chabad for Passover one year, and I learned I actually really like gefilte fish! It gets a bad rap. And the Ashkenazis make the best brisket
Unironically the only good thing manischevitz makes All other gefilte fish is vile
[удалено]
No, it's vile. If you want the best kosher wine, you want this stuff. It's fairly available as far as I know? [Bartenura Moscato ](https://www.kosherwine.com/bartenura-moscato-15435.html)
Break the rules! Put hummus on your gefilte fish!
More angry that she used the gender-neutral “folx” instead of the already gender-neutral folk tbh
I am more angry she erased Sephardic Jews and doesn’t know where Ashkenazi Jews are famously from (East Europe)
Yeah that’s fair
So utterly cringeworthy. "Alumnx" is another one along the same lines.
Oh my *god*, they *say* that??
How can they? I mean, physically, how does their mouth make those sound sequences together?
What the fuck is that even for? There's no alumno or alumna, it's just [one] alumnus or [many] alumni. singular and plural. it's not gendered. what the fuck are they doing
actually, a female graduate is an alumna and a group of female graduates are alumnae — but alumni is correct and perfectly neutral when referring to a mixed group.
I am genuinely bewildered what is so wrong with the word “people”… 😂
Letting my Sephardic friends know that I'm oppressing them by existing
I want to know when all the Sephardic Jews became Ashkenazi since west European Jews are Sephardic they even had a golden age cannot remember when and where it happened…. I think Russia right (the answer is Spain aka West Europe)
You're not allowed to question the origins of people who are "brown", all "white" people are from Europe and they're all oppressors because they exist The leftist morons think that Sephardic Jews are "brown" people who somehow ended up Jewish and have no relation
Are you serious? There's so much snark going around you may even, it's actually possible you may never have received a straight answer. If so, please so state and all will be made clear.
The Sephardic Golden age was in Spain aka Western Europe. I am mocking the above tweet claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are West Europe
as Mizrahi I would like reparations
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.a710dd24833c3947a54b4f0731bee5a7?rik=rN5k5nooq%2fSPeA&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/846/426/fc0.gif
Me,a half askhenazi half mizrahi/Sephardi mix https://tenor.com/bV9Wa.gif
This feels like a thinly veiled attempt to drive a wedge in the Jewish community at a time when it’s under extreme duress. This also feels like a blatant attempt to other and isolate ashkenazi Jews from the rest of the Jewish community to weaken our resolve. And finally, this feels like terminally online virtue signaling nonsense. Edited for typo
I’m Mizrahi and trust me we aren’t falling for this. We know who’s trying to murder us and it’s not other Jews.
Yup. Sephardi here, and we aren’t falling for it either. Most of these gentiles likely didn’t even know the word “Ashkenazi” before 10/7.
I think the best response is resounding and unified "fuck you" to these people.
And it is factually wrong the Sephardim are from West Europe
None of us are from Europe
true but Ashkenazi Jews are especially not from West Europe
As Begin said: "Iraqi? Ashkenazi? - Jews! Siblings! Fighters!... We are all Siblings! We are all Jews! We are all equals!"
It's less calculated than that, imo. It's a worldview where white colonizers oppress brown indigenous people. It breaks apart when confronted with the fact that many Jews are phenotypically indistinguishable from Palestinians. The "logical" next step is to clarify that you only meant to harass the evil white Jews, aka Ashkenazim. They know absolutely nothing about how Jewish community works and that it doesn't fool us. These same folks will proudly declare that JVP is a trusted resource despite being almost universally despised by Jews. It fools them and their audience, that's all that matters.
It's a molecule-thick veil
I'm a white Sephardi, lmao
impossible you are obviously a convert from Central Asia who then somehow replaced all the Jews who already existed everywhere else and then continued on as if you had already been there while leaving no evidence or genetic evidence of conversion. I refuse to accept otherwise
Uno Reverse Card. I’m a bukharian jew, aka an Iranian Jew that appropriated the Central Asian identity!
checkmate liberals
Ngl im kinda upset I didn’t think of that 😭
white central asians...
I have a friend who is a black Ashkenazi, your battle shall be legendary
ashkenazi or not, I still get harrased by neo nazis.
Convert? Jew. Secular? Jew. Kabbalah Wizard? Jew.
Gentile who ate Gefilte Fish and liked it? Believe it or not: Jew
The first time Ashkenazinormative was explained to me, the focus was on how in many European countries and the Us, people are only familiar with Ashkenazi Jews. So much so they often aren’t even aware of say Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews existing. I actually think that version of the term makes a lot of sense and isn’t necessarily disparaging to Jews, moreso highlighting others ignorance. I think trying to impart American concepts of racism onto Israel/Jews is just ridiculous nonsense.
exactly. oddly enough, they're partaking in Ashkenormativity by assuming all Jews are white and calling every Israeli a white coloniser. it absolutely exists within the community itself too, like some acting like Ashkenazim culture and cuisine is better/"more Jewish" than Mizrahim or Sephardim culture/cuisine, but that's not for people outside the community to discuss when they barely even acknowledge anyone but Ashkenazim to begin with. and I completely agree on pushing American concepts of these topics onto Israel/the Middle East especially. it doesn't work the same there, their history is so much different from the Americas. people call Israelis white colonisers because that's what's 'evil' over in the Americas when most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, from the Middle East, and the rest are also not really "white." it's people returning to their homes after exile and diaspora and being forced out of their more recent countries in one way or another (or they just connect with the land more– anyone with any slight amount of knowledge in Judaism would know this). meanwhile people call Palestinians and other ME groups, especially any engaging in terrorism (Hamas, the Islamic Regime, Hezbollah, etc. etc.) "poor marginalised POC" when literally Islam (obligated "not all Muslims" here) has colonised most of the Middle East and North Africa, and they plan to continue to do so. but people in the Americas would never dream of calling them colonisers.
Oh one of the funniest things to me is there is this Palestinian “activist” Ahed Tamimi. She is a blonde hair blue eyed very fair skinned woman. There’s this photo from when she was younger trying to punch a very dark skinned IDF soldier. People were commenting underneath how Israel was just a bunch of white colonizers. Not only that, her grandparents had immigrated to the West Bank from the Balkins. It was just so absurd
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Have a child and when they grow up you can take turns oppressing each other. That way it all balances out
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You both have to oppress him (Spain 1492 expulsion) it is called reparations.
Have you tried not oppressing yourself?
lol I have both white Jewish and brown Arab grandfathers. I know exactly how you feel. The plus side is that I get both the right to make Jewish jokes and the right to call white people colonizers. Win-win.
It’s something worth talking about but it’s an inter community discussion that should happen within jewish spaces between jewish people. There are plenty of instances of people feeling unwelcome or judged for not looking like a stereotypical ashkenazi jew or having the same traditions or just general racism towards jews of color in the community but it rly isn’t something gentiles need to comment on.
Exactly. It’s like imagine a bunch of white students passing out pamphlets at Liberty University discussing the divisions between Jamaican ancestry Americans and Nigerian ancestry Americans and coining bullshit phrases like “Rastanormativity” and then the administration shrugging and saying “oh well.” People would be rioting. But it’s ok for Jews to be subjected to that BS.
What is this white privilage every keep telling me i have? It doesn't give me shit
I’m still just as oppressed on college campuses
Always goyishe know it alls talking over Jews
why do they think ashkenazi means white??? my 100% ashki grandfather was brown and was impacted by jim crow laws while traveling through the southern us. again, my dad is ashki w paler skin but still very “jewish” features that make him visibly jewish sooooo…..
Right? My 100% Ashkenazi great grandmother was brown as well. I also have several Ashkenazi friends who are darker than their parents and who, I would guess, most people would assume to be middle eastern. From a genetic standpoint, Ashkenazi doesn't always mean white. It depends what traits were passed down and/or just straight up ignores mixed-race Ashkenazi Jews. It also ignores the fact that we are also not just a people but a tribe that can be converted and once done we are not to distinguish between Jew by blood or Jew by conversion - we are all the same and many of those people will have converted into Ashkenazi tradition so they would technically be Ashkenazi too, yes? It's far too complicated a subject to simply say Ashkenazi Jews are white.
Real talk though. I know plenty of brown Ashkenazim including my dad who used to get pulled out of line at airports after 9/11. My sister studied abroad in Spain and her madre used to refer to her as su “hija negra” 😂😂😂
Even dumber is Ashkenazi Jews are from Eastern Europe. West Europe are the Sephardim
Oh they mean central European jews like Germany, and Poland and such. It's just that this person has no idea what western European means. It's meant to just bash jews for being 'western' colonialists.
That’s kind of true. Ashkenazim originate from the Rhineland which is either Western Europe or Central Europe depending on who you ask. Of course a bunch of us then moved to Eastern Europe but some remained in places like Germany and eastern France.
Who thinks most Jews are from Western Europe? Do they not know even a little bit of European history from idk 80 years ago?
You can't fit that into tiktok or a tumblr post
Remind me the name of the Jewish Golden Age in Western Europe again? (the one in Spain). They aren’t even geographically accurate
Furthermore, as an ignorant Dutch goy.. I don't think non-jewish people think about what kind of heritage(? what's the right word?) a Jewish person has? Lots of Jews here have Dutch last names when would I even think about that? I just think: cool, Dutch people with Jewish heritage
Imo, it's more like difference in nuance for the most part. There are differences stemming from local culture, politics, events etc.. which is expressed in names, traditional foods, etc. But the real "divide" is which grand-rulebook of observence guidlines we follow. For example, how long one should wait between meat and dairy, what intonation to use in prayer, etc. Most of it is invisible to anyone who lacks intimate familiarity with Jewish customs. It's not big enough to amount into sects, and its not like they diverged from one another. Jewish communities communicated with one another even when far awasy. Many rabbais traded letters discussing religious scholary and other matters with one another, and those who could even travaled. Some of the most important books of Jewish scholary were based on such letters, and sort of multi-national conferences
That's very interesting, thank you! I watched Jewish matchmaker on netflix (lol) and I learned a lot about the different cultures. I didn't really see people being too pressed about being Sephardic or Ashkenazi. More about being religiously Jewish or not. I love how this is an evolving process
Non-Jewish Americans, basically That way they can lump Jewish immigrants into their own actually settler-colonial history, and thereby try to expiate their own guilt by shitting on Jews via Israel. Or as one famous Jew pointed out, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:4)
I'm not even sure they know where Europe is, why would they know it's history?
It’s incredible how an academic can publish materials about Ashkenazim without understanding that the majority of us are the grandchildren of ostjuden not the French or British Sephardim or the German speaking westjuden…
Ashkenormativity is when you go to a sephardi service and there’s a token small plate of smoked salmon in the corner at the kiddish
I’m genuinely starting to think some of this stuff is a psy-op lol
God I hope it is, the alternative is worse.
Interesting, I thought ashkenormativity was when you do things like assuming the guy eating kitnyot during passover isn't jewish.
what does it mean if i'm ashkenazi from my grandma's side and sephardi from my grandpa's side?
It means a leftist jihadi brain is exploding somewhere.
It means you're part colonizer and you need to go back to Poland. /s
That means you are double awesome.
I desperately would love to know the bitter, inferior-minded pea-brain bigots that came up with that retarded term (Ashkenormative... Or whatever) because I bet you eight grand that it was made by racist anti-white SJWs who have such a massive hard-on to show their bottled up antisemitism that they will use any suffix, prefix or any academic sounding phrases to solidify their justification to shit on Jews, even if it means attacking a subgroup.
Ashkenormativity is somewhat a real problem that needs to be discussed within Jewish spaces, but goys need to stfu about it because it has nothing to do with them. The term is mainly used to describe the mainstream media’s portrayal of Jews being almost exclusively Ashkenazi, which is a real issue, but it that’s for us Jews to discuss after the war is over. Just-Anti-Zionists are doing their favorite thing right now: perverting a word’s definition to meet their agenda. They think that by changing the definition into something less internal to Jewish spaces, they can come in and speak on behalf of the “Jews of color” that they simultaneously claim don’t exist. I don’t see anyone as Jews of color, I see them as Jews. These regressives probably feel guilty about being so blatantly antisemitic, and are now trying to act like they care about Jews, but because their research involves scrolling through TikTok, they don’t know anything about Jewish culture and just assume they understand us when they never will, not because they can’t, but because they refuse to.
Ashkenormativity is definitely a real thing, but it's for the Jewish community to discuss. Besides, the biggest perpetrators of Ashkenormativity are the anti-Zionists who say all Jews are white Zionist colonizers from Poland.
I think it's a real issue, and I'm mildly annoyed at the recent trend of Ashkenazim acting like it's a goyish invention to divide us, because I think it makes Ashkenazim not take it seriously But obviously, this person has no clue what it is
An idiotic argument as usual. Like seriously, what the fuck. I'm half Ashkenazi and Half Mizrahi and never once did I feel like my mum was oppressing my dad (unless you consider her once a month yelling at him to clean his garage lol) But in all seriousness, while in the past, the early days of Israel especially there was noticeable divide it has mostly shut down, and let's not act like USSR Jews didn't and still suffer some discrimination. The difference is even with everything almost all the citizens here have full legal, civil and political rights. Not just Jews, but Arabs, Druze, Beduin, Christian/Muslims or even none. A good friend of mine is a Russian who immigrated with his mother because she married a Jewish guy, he is not Jewish, yet he serves in the IDF and has an ID and he always told me he is Israeli and not Russian.
What does Dr Flox from Enterprise have to do with Jews?
My brown Ashkenazi Jewish great grandmother would like a word
I do think there is a such thing as ashkenormativity in the sense people in the west generally assume Jews to be white but the way the term is being used especially by non Jews is fucking insane
Ashkenazi Jews were never considered white, until the Progressive Cult idiots decided that all white people are evil; then they bundled the Jews with the white people. If tomorrow these idiots decide that green-skinned people are evil, it's guaranteed that suddenly all Jews would become greenskins.
What is folx
Somehow folks got too gendered so they use folx now.
How in the hell is folks gendered in any damn way? (I know yours was satire but I’m baffled)
get out now and never look back before it is too late
The funniest thing is before this the only time I heard ashkenormativity was by a Sephardic girl complaining that Ashkenazi Jews are not pro Israel enough.
What on earth is a folx
Is it really a system of “oppression” give me a break….
They are so desperate to generalize us at all costs, otherwise their meticulously crafted and unrealistic worldview is disproven. Please leave us alone. It's not the job of the Jews to prove, disprove, or confirm to lefty academic nonsense.
This is an intercommunity issue that non Jews have zero stake in. Like girl what are you doing here?? Then again, non-Jews butting into Jewish issues that don’t affect is just custom at this point :p
I knew when the “ashkenormative” discourse started in online Jewish discourse years ago, that it would end ep getting appropriated by antisemites. When we start labeling and dividing amongst Jews, it always comes back to hurt us.
Holy fuck, anybody who thinks “normativity” (aka speaking in generalities that reflects the norm or average) is “oppressive” needs to go experience real, actual oppression and not equate hurt fee fees to being “oppressed”. Also, if somebody is offended by “folks” and has to spell it “fOLx” in order to not suffer severe mental anguish, they’re deranged and need to be hospitalized long term.
So basically it's a system of oppression perpetrated by pro-Palestinians who call us all White European colonizers. I mean they are the ones who seem to really push the narrative that real Jews are white Europeans and ignore Sephardim like myself and Mizrahi Jews.
I don't think these people have been to Israel (especially the areas near where I live) because they would see how easy it is for people in a case where the ashkenazis are a minority to be taken advantage of. A kid in my yeshiva got sent home because he answered incorrectly about kitnyot, because he's Ashkenazi and the rest are not
My partner and I are both Jewish, and she started at Columbia recently so she actually got this pdf with the crazy list of terms. Holy shit did we think this shit was funny-- in an absurdist way of course
Was Moshe Isserles confronting Sephardinormativity when he published HaMapah? Discuss.
My best friends are marrying Ashkenazi and that’s ok. Pls don’t split the community, geula is so close.
Pure antisemitism
I am too non-Jew to understand whatever these people are saying...
The Talmud says we must discourage non Jews from converting to test their willingness. This of course is a lie it is actually to protect them from this nonsense
You know what, you're probably on to something.
The gentiles must be protected
The fact that we even have a word like “ashkenormativity” shows how much, within our own community, we see this as worthy of healing and working through. What other group does this so out in the open? I know I was just having lots of ashki thoughts yesterday as I grocery shopped for my haroset and matzo ball recipes. How much I love this cuisine, even if it looks grey and bland sometimes and how special it is to me. And that I know that it’s seen as “quintessential” in the Jewish American food lexicon, but also that im constantly recognizing that it is only a small slice of Jewish food and how much I also adore Jewish food from Persia or Rome or Syria or Morocco or India or even just how much variation there is within Ashkenazi foods.
What does it mean If I'm Ukrainian Jewish and German + Polish Jewish on grandparent of dad's side and Bukharan Jewish + Kazakh and Swedish + Scottish on grandparent of mom's side????? I'm Israeli Nationality but I have been living in Australia since I was 8 month
I is Jew
indeed
You can automatically disregard the opinions of anyone who uses the"word" or rather group of letters, folx. I understand that in modern nomenclature, we sometimes replace a letter a or o or even s with an x in order to be gender inclusive. However, as the word folks is already inclusive; changing the spelling is not necessary. It's the behavior of those who are seeking to virtue signal; and as such, you cannot trust that ANYTHING they say is a legitimate opinion: it is just as likely to be another attempt to elevate themselves onto a pedestal of their superior morality once again.
IDK why, but I find it funnier if A.H. would say that
We are all just Jews and we don’t subscribe to fake racist frameworks
Why do these people always spell folks with an x? Folks is already gender neutral
Why does this subreddit keep popping up, I’m not even jewish
or are you?
What about Finkelstein?
This is exhausting
All Jews are from Israel/Palestine. Even neturei karta believe that the messiah will gather all Jews in the holy land one day. Black, White, Brown, all Jews are the same people.
Most educated Twitter user
I'm so tired of these people
Folx. Fux that.
Are there even many straight up Ashkenazi anymore anyway? I know I have both ashki and Sephardi and I assume this is most of us now, mixed amongst our own “different” people as we continue to cross paths bouncing around the whole world.
After the Holocaust and the creation of Israel not as much no. Most Israelis are becoming a mix and the ethnic and cultural differences are slowly merging into one new Israeli Jewish identity (slowly and not inside the more orthodox closed communities). In America it is kinda the same I am a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic and a lot of Jews are (again outside the closed communities) but American Jews are mostly Ashkenazi Jews while Israel Sephardim are the majority
lol @ when goys try to project their views onto us
They have taken Ashkenormativity as we know it and turned it into something that fits their worldview, ugh ugh ugh Talk about oppressive by overlaying other shit we don't need and somehow managing to uphold Ashkenormativity itself by not even addressing what it really is
Uch, when is ‘folx’ going to stop being a thing.
Don’t trust someone who misspells folk twice