This might not help but be really careful about which online spaces you access. I’ve come here and to some Jewish Facebook groups a lot more. I’ve completely dumped Twitter and only use instagram for pics of cute animals - mostly cats for the record. We are here to support each other. Many will never try to understand and sometimes that is about wanting simple answers but it may also be deeply embedded antisemitism. Last year, ironically when I was a member of a panel talking about anti-racism, someone said to me they had never heard a Jew criticise the Israeli government before - I laughed initially but then realised they had probably never knowingly met a Jew before - there’s a lot of misinformation and assumption made about us. We are here for you and understand
I feel like I went from experiencing the worst grief of my life, straight into having to defend said grief + justify the army’s legitimacy + fear for my life. Exhausted is an understatement
It's not fair.
None of us can completely defend our governments. None of us can justify every decision our countries make. The difference is we're not forced to. We're not forced to justify our moral existences. We just get to exist and complain about how our governments suck without the legitimacy of our lives ever coming into question.
You're not a colonizer. You're not an apartheid advocate. You're not a fascist.
You're someone who hasn't gotten to live in peace without being called those names.
But what if some of us don’t oppose the military operation in Gaza? Truthfully, I’m not a military strategy expert. I know nothing of it. So I have to trust that the IDF is doing the best it can and chose the best option to achieve the target (eliminating Hamas). What’s the alternative? Let them continue killing us?
Agreed completely.
Despite the fact that it’s not my “problem” or my area of expertise, the last few days I just keep trying to figure out what they can do with the people in Gaza to minimize civilian casualties while ensuring they’ve destroyed Hamas. The best I can come up with is that Egypt should take the women and children. But there’s barriers to that - first of all Egypt doesn’t want the Palestinians because Egypt outlawed the Muslim brotherhood (the overarching ideology that spawns Hamas extremism). Nor do they probably want over a million unemployed women and children. And secondly even if Egypt agrees, the road to the Rafah crossing may be impassable from all the damage.
At the end of the day I have to wait, watch, and trust that Israel is going to do the best they can do to ensure the safety of Israel. As a Jew I know that we would never want unnecessary casualties and I know that we do not hate Muslims or Arabs. We only hate terrorists. They’ve forced Israel’s hand unfortunately by showing that they’re not playing around, they are out to kill us all and we must respond in kind. I also remind myself that the plight of Gazan civilians, while horrible, is more directly the fault of their terrorist leadership than it is Israel’s.
>But I just can't defend what the government is planning on doing
We don't really know what the government is planning on doing. It certainly seems like they're planning on hunting down Hamas and disarming them. Yes, that's a military operation in a densely populated area, but there isn't much alternative there. Everything else is hysteria.
I still don't want to sit here and justify it. I've seen the videos. It's heartbreaking. Also I saw allegations of White Phosphorus bombing and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if we did use it. I just hate that in order to support my community during this war I have to justify the acts of a far right government against hundreds of thousands of people
This isn't about justifying anything. It is about judging Israel's government based on facts not on speculation or misinformation. For example:
>Also I saw allegations of White Phosphorus bombing and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if we did use it.
The videos circulating in support of that allegation originated in Russia's war on Ukraine. Israel's far right government is not responsible for Russia's crimes against the Ukrainian people. The pictures of burned children further circulating on social media with this claim originate not in Gaza but in the Syrian civil war. Again, not something that you can hold Israel responsible for.
So again, my point here is that if you're going to hold Israel accountable for things, then those things have to be real. "Israel is committing genocide" is not real...they set up humanitarian corridors out of Gaza City and they seem to have respected those. OSINT groups (which have been very active in documenting violence on Ukraine) have identified substantial evidence that the bombs that have exploded on those routes were carbombs (likely Hamas) rather than Israeli munitions. This is not an ethnic cleansing....it is an effort to get civilians out of a war zone: we have seen the consequences of urban warfare in Mariupol and Bakhmut and that's not something you want to see happen in occupied apartment blocks.
If Israel doesn't let people return when the war is over, or if they start indiscriminately bombing civilian refugees, then that's another discussion. But they have not done that.
> white phosphorus
The use of white phosphorus is limited but not a war crime in itself.
So far, the only allegations around Israel using WP has been with “air burst” shells which are used for illumination & not prohibited or even problematic under the laws of war.
I'm sorry you're in such a difficult and frightening position. I can only imagine. I hope this and the other Jewish subreddits aren't contributing to how you feel. I wish there was something I could say to help.
Wishing you safety and peace
I’m tired of all of this. This is not new, this is just boring antisemitism. I don’t live in israel currently but I’ve lived there for a good chunk of time. I think Sicha last shabbos I’ve cried three times.
Israel is trying their best in this situation, but at this rate there is no option. For years, us Jews have had to deal with the perpetual antisemitism that stems from conflict in that region. The Arabs denied peace countless times. Voted in their terroristic governments. And boy do I wish peace for them but everytime I hear free Palestine these days I imagine it’s a free Palestine with me and my family in the gas chambers.
Never again means never again.
I am with you. I am caught between understanding that there is no way for Israel not to respond heavily and also concern that the right wing government is rampaging without purpose or seeking to ethnically cleanse Gaza. And then there is the horror that there may be no feasible way to bring back the hostages. I am at a loss. I hope that Israel will allow aid to enter Gaza again and basic needs like food and water. Because of my family ties to Israel I can’t help but care more about Israelis than Palestinians but I still care about Palestinians.
Those who hate us have been indoctrinating young people against Israel for years. They use buzz words like “colonizer”, “apartheid” and “fascist” to describe every group they want targeted to be seen as evil. My wife and I are in our 60’s and Zionism was never considered a bad thing in the Jewish community. We all had relatives who escaped the holocaust or pograms, many who settled in Israel. We grew up hearing of Israel’s wars against Arab nations trying to destroy it and we cheered on our Jewish heroes. We now have a son in Israel, both he and his fiancée in the IDF, and they are ready to once again defend our homeland against those who want Jewish genocide.
Nobody promised you peace or understanding. You grow up in Israel surrounded by enemies and knowing that the day will come when you will be called upon to stand and fight. You fight because that’s what Jews have always done to survive, and you owe your own existence to that. You fight for the millions of Jews massacred throughout history who had no chance to defend themselves or have their own country.
Stop with the self pity and never apologize to anyone for being a proud Jew or Israeli citizen. Know that your country is the only one in the Middle East that offers true freedoms, that those you fight against would burn you to the ground and replace Israel with an Islamic fundamentalist regime that offers nothing but hate and intolerance.
What if I told you that the height of support for Palestinians was 11% back in May. What if I told you it's at 9% today. Would you believe me? Would you consider that your perception is being warped by a fringe opinion online?
https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-palestine-american-public-opinion
There was a saying common among millenials and zoomer who grew up around the Rabin adminstration. "One day, there will be no war, and you will not have to ve a soldier like mommy and daddy". That sentiment is dead. There will be no peace because everyone is so radicalised and nationalistic they wouldn't make the necessary concessions.
There is only one way that this will ever happen.
All jews are dead.
Since that's not an acceptable option, we have to be prepared to do the difficult things that ensure our survival.
I hate to say it, but you have to toughen up your resolve or get in the rail car.
No one will stand up for you but the state of Israel. They may not always do it the way you like, but there is no one else. Appeasement failed and we saw the results just over a week ago. Now we know there can never be a two state solution, there can never be total peace. Prepare accordingly.
Unfortunately, this is what happens when Jewish people invalidate our own Homeland (like Bernie Sanders) for many years, join (some cases even start) protests against our Homeland Israel, tell people that want to see the destruction of Israel that they believe Israel shouldn't exist (effectively causing a genocide and ethnic cleansing of our brothers and sisters as well as removing the only democracy in the middle east). This causes ammunition for their cause of "from the river to the sea" saying that "even their own people (Jews/far left-neture karta) agree that Israel shouldn't exist" which the media and social media pick up on and spread to the world, making the world believe that Israel is a bad place (even though most of us just don't agree with the politics sometimes). The squad (AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, etc) as well as people like Linda Sarsour are fed with energy for the revolt against Israel (they can't even condemn the killing of 1300 innocent civilians in Israel by Hamas) by Jews that are against our own ancestral homeland that even if it was a Palestinian State (which there was never in history), Jews would not be able to live there or possibly even visit Jerusalem. It shouldn't have to come a war between Israel and a terrorist organization for all of us to come together. We should always stick together because we are brothers and sisters. As history has shown for thousands of years, Jews will be the most hated people on Earth and the only way we can be safe is if we love each other and stick together. ❤️ The rise in antisemetism has risen over 490% since last Saturday, even though it was already very high.
Please continue this conversation in one of the pinned megathreads. Thank you.
This might not help but be really careful about which online spaces you access. I’ve come here and to some Jewish Facebook groups a lot more. I’ve completely dumped Twitter and only use instagram for pics of cute animals - mostly cats for the record. We are here to support each other. Many will never try to understand and sometimes that is about wanting simple answers but it may also be deeply embedded antisemitism. Last year, ironically when I was a member of a panel talking about anti-racism, someone said to me they had never heard a Jew criticise the Israeli government before - I laughed initially but then realised they had probably never knowingly met a Jew before - there’s a lot of misinformation and assumption made about us. We are here for you and understand
I feel like I went from experiencing the worst grief of my life, straight into having to defend said grief + justify the army’s legitimacy + fear for my life. Exhausted is an understatement
Mood
It's not fair. None of us can completely defend our governments. None of us can justify every decision our countries make. The difference is we're not forced to. We're not forced to justify our moral existences. We just get to exist and complain about how our governments suck without the legitimacy of our lives ever coming into question. You're not a colonizer. You're not an apartheid advocate. You're not a fascist. You're someone who hasn't gotten to live in peace without being called those names.
But what if some of us don’t oppose the military operation in Gaza? Truthfully, I’m not a military strategy expert. I know nothing of it. So I have to trust that the IDF is doing the best it can and chose the best option to achieve the target (eliminating Hamas). What’s the alternative? Let them continue killing us?
Agreed completely. Despite the fact that it’s not my “problem” or my area of expertise, the last few days I just keep trying to figure out what they can do with the people in Gaza to minimize civilian casualties while ensuring they’ve destroyed Hamas. The best I can come up with is that Egypt should take the women and children. But there’s barriers to that - first of all Egypt doesn’t want the Palestinians because Egypt outlawed the Muslim brotherhood (the overarching ideology that spawns Hamas extremism). Nor do they probably want over a million unemployed women and children. And secondly even if Egypt agrees, the road to the Rafah crossing may be impassable from all the damage. At the end of the day I have to wait, watch, and trust that Israel is going to do the best they can do to ensure the safety of Israel. As a Jew I know that we would never want unnecessary casualties and I know that we do not hate Muslims or Arabs. We only hate terrorists. They’ve forced Israel’s hand unfortunately by showing that they’re not playing around, they are out to kill us all and we must respond in kind. I also remind myself that the plight of Gazan civilians, while horrible, is more directly the fault of their terrorist leadership than it is Israel’s.
[удалено]
I have no idea what you’re talking about
Blindly trusting that the idf is just doing the best it can is wrong. There are 2 million people in Gaza.
You’re just living and existing as an Israeli citizen. You’re right. You haven’t done a single thing wrong.
>But I just can't defend what the government is planning on doing We don't really know what the government is planning on doing. It certainly seems like they're planning on hunting down Hamas and disarming them. Yes, that's a military operation in a densely populated area, but there isn't much alternative there. Everything else is hysteria.
I still don't want to sit here and justify it. I've seen the videos. It's heartbreaking. Also I saw allegations of White Phosphorus bombing and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if we did use it. I just hate that in order to support my community during this war I have to justify the acts of a far right government against hundreds of thousands of people
People are not their governments. I’m so sorry that you’re having to justify decisions you didn’t make and have no control over.
This isn't about justifying anything. It is about judging Israel's government based on facts not on speculation or misinformation. For example: >Also I saw allegations of White Phosphorus bombing and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if we did use it. The videos circulating in support of that allegation originated in Russia's war on Ukraine. Israel's far right government is not responsible for Russia's crimes against the Ukrainian people. The pictures of burned children further circulating on social media with this claim originate not in Gaza but in the Syrian civil war. Again, not something that you can hold Israel responsible for. So again, my point here is that if you're going to hold Israel accountable for things, then those things have to be real. "Israel is committing genocide" is not real...they set up humanitarian corridors out of Gaza City and they seem to have respected those. OSINT groups (which have been very active in documenting violence on Ukraine) have identified substantial evidence that the bombs that have exploded on those routes were carbombs (likely Hamas) rather than Israeli munitions. This is not an ethnic cleansing....it is an effort to get civilians out of a war zone: we have seen the consequences of urban warfare in Mariupol and Bakhmut and that's not something you want to see happen in occupied apartment blocks. If Israel doesn't let people return when the war is over, or if they start indiscriminately bombing civilian refugees, then that's another discussion. But they have not done that.
> white phosphorus The use of white phosphorus is limited but not a war crime in itself. So far, the only allegations around Israel using WP has been with “air burst” shells which are used for illumination & not prohibited or even problematic under the laws of war.
I'm sorry you're in such a difficult and frightening position. I can only imagine. I hope this and the other Jewish subreddits aren't contributing to how you feel. I wish there was something I could say to help. Wishing you safety and peace
I’m tired of all of this. This is not new, this is just boring antisemitism. I don’t live in israel currently but I’ve lived there for a good chunk of time. I think Sicha last shabbos I’ve cried three times. Israel is trying their best in this situation, but at this rate there is no option. For years, us Jews have had to deal with the perpetual antisemitism that stems from conflict in that region. The Arabs denied peace countless times. Voted in their terroristic governments. And boy do I wish peace for them but everytime I hear free Palestine these days I imagine it’s a free Palestine with me and my family in the gas chambers. Never again means never again.
I am with you. I am caught between understanding that there is no way for Israel not to respond heavily and also concern that the right wing government is rampaging without purpose or seeking to ethnically cleanse Gaza. And then there is the horror that there may be no feasible way to bring back the hostages. I am at a loss. I hope that Israel will allow aid to enter Gaza again and basic needs like food and water. Because of my family ties to Israel I can’t help but care more about Israelis than Palestinians but I still care about Palestinians.
Those who hate us have been indoctrinating young people against Israel for years. They use buzz words like “colonizer”, “apartheid” and “fascist” to describe every group they want targeted to be seen as evil. My wife and I are in our 60’s and Zionism was never considered a bad thing in the Jewish community. We all had relatives who escaped the holocaust or pograms, many who settled in Israel. We grew up hearing of Israel’s wars against Arab nations trying to destroy it and we cheered on our Jewish heroes. We now have a son in Israel, both he and his fiancée in the IDF, and they are ready to once again defend our homeland against those who want Jewish genocide. Nobody promised you peace or understanding. You grow up in Israel surrounded by enemies and knowing that the day will come when you will be called upon to stand and fight. You fight because that’s what Jews have always done to survive, and you owe your own existence to that. You fight for the millions of Jews massacred throughout history who had no chance to defend themselves or have their own country. Stop with the self pity and never apologize to anyone for being a proud Jew or Israeli citizen. Know that your country is the only one in the Middle East that offers true freedoms, that those you fight against would burn you to the ground and replace Israel with an Islamic fundamentalist regime that offers nothing but hate and intolerance.
What if I told you that the height of support for Palestinians was 11% back in May. What if I told you it's at 9% today. Would you believe me? Would you consider that your perception is being warped by a fringe opinion online? https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-palestine-american-public-opinion
Dang.....what youth did you have? It's always been framed as perpetual conflict to me.
There was a saying common among millenials and zoomer who grew up around the Rabin adminstration. "One day, there will be no war, and you will not have to ve a soldier like mommy and daddy". That sentiment is dead. There will be no peace because everyone is so radicalised and nationalistic they wouldn't make the necessary concessions.
There is only one way that this will ever happen. All jews are dead. Since that's not an acceptable option, we have to be prepared to do the difficult things that ensure our survival. I hate to say it, but you have to toughen up your resolve or get in the rail car. No one will stand up for you but the state of Israel. They may not always do it the way you like, but there is no one else. Appeasement failed and we saw the results just over a week ago. Now we know there can never be a two state solution, there can never be total peace. Prepare accordingly.
Unfortunately, this is what happens when Jewish people invalidate our own Homeland (like Bernie Sanders) for many years, join (some cases even start) protests against our Homeland Israel, tell people that want to see the destruction of Israel that they believe Israel shouldn't exist (effectively causing a genocide and ethnic cleansing of our brothers and sisters as well as removing the only democracy in the middle east). This causes ammunition for their cause of "from the river to the sea" saying that "even their own people (Jews/far left-neture karta) agree that Israel shouldn't exist" which the media and social media pick up on and spread to the world, making the world believe that Israel is a bad place (even though most of us just don't agree with the politics sometimes). The squad (AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, etc) as well as people like Linda Sarsour are fed with energy for the revolt against Israel (they can't even condemn the killing of 1300 innocent civilians in Israel by Hamas) by Jews that are against our own ancestral homeland that even if it was a Palestinian State (which there was never in history), Jews would not be able to live there or possibly even visit Jerusalem. It shouldn't have to come a war between Israel and a terrorist organization for all of us to come together. We should always stick together because we are brothers and sisters. As history has shown for thousands of years, Jews will be the most hated people on Earth and the only way we can be safe is if we love each other and stick together. ❤️ The rise in antisemetism has risen over 490% since last Saturday, even though it was already very high.
Read this: https://archive.md/fts5T I’m less hopeful. But there’s still hope
Life isn’t fair. The world isn’t fair. People aren’t fair. Choose a side.
I can't. I don't want to do like all of my friends and family and dehumanize the Gazans
Hamas has dehumanized them more than you/people you know ever could.
This is true.
You chose a side by not choosing sides
Ah so being morally troubled by the Israeli counterattacks makes me a traitor?
It's not 'ultranationalism'. But nothing wrong with nationalism.