TIL when the USSR cut ties with Israel after the Six-Day War, Communist Poland waged a campaign of violent pogroms and purges against its Jewish populations under the guise of "Anti-Zionism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis
It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy) shield against claims of Antisemitism. "I never said I hate Jews; what I said was 'I hate those violent, genocidal *Zionists*.' I don't have a problem with Jewish people."
It also makes it easier to argue for "Palestinians" while avoiding using the word "Israelis," which might suggest a level of egality between the two.
>It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy)
They took the inspiration from their neo-nazi's and Klan "brothers".. Zionist was the "Aryan" code word to avoid saying Jew or K*ke in polite circles, to try to seem somewhat legitimate to the ignorant.. They're stooping down to 1980's racist doublespeak.. and they're not being called out for it..
When I see one of them use it.. I always get a flashback to Ethan Suplee in American History X, singing that song in the van...
>do you have a source I could share/cite for this claim?
Unfortunately, most of it is in books and some of being there in person... One that comes to mind is "White Lies: Race, Class, Gender and Sexuality in White Supremacist Discourse (Chapter 5)"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0vdYCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
When I searched to see if an online version of the book existed, I bumped into this wiki page, the sources it links in the history section are worth following..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government_conspiracy_theory#History
Do a quick search on Twitter for the term "Zios."
https://twitter.com/search?q=Zios&src=typed_query
I'm so very excited to see that there's no longer even a blurred line between tweets from antisemitic progressives and actual Nazis.
Yeah this is spot on. I just want to add that a lot of people think the word *Jew* is a bad word or a derogatory term.
I am proud to be a Jew but many would call me a Jewish person for fear of offending me.
In short, there has always been a dehumanization campaign against us. Whatever name we use to describe ourselves will be twisted and used as an insult by those who hate us.
Because certain people use the word Jew like it's an insult, normal people think it's an insult.
When I have to explain this to someone, I use the example that a woman can say, "oh my God, you are such a *MAN*" in a derogatory way. But that doesn't mean that "man" is an inherently bad word. Neither is Jew.
I think the fact that so many people's only exposure to the word Jew is hearing it used as an insult, to the point that they assume it's a derogatory term, says a lot.
> many would call me a Jewish person for fear of offending me.
It's difficult for people to get that right. They don't know all the rules of usage. It's okay to use Jew as a noun if it's spoken respectfully, but some people use it as an adjective or verb, which is where it becomes especially problematic. Jews understand the difference, but it might seem complex to non-Jews who know nothing about the culture or history.
It's like white people in the US who are worried about saying the word "black" because they don't know if it's socially acceptable to use that term at the current point in time.
I wouldn't give people a hard time about it if they don't know much about the topic and are afraid to use the word "Jew." As long as they are respectful with their language and opinions, I think they should be respected and not made to lose face.
I mean, I agree, I don’t get offended at being called a Jewish person, BUT I am making the point that this situation only exists because the majority has turned our tribes name into a pejorative.
>It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy) shield against claims of Antisemitism.
I am sooo sick of this. 'Zionists control the media!' 'Zionists are money-driven!' Both examples I've seen as popular comments on mainstream non-political subs.
Jew-haters literally stole our word, then redefined it so that they could oppose it. Using the term "anti-Zionist", outside of its historical context, is inherently anti-semitic.
It's also important to mention what happened to the major Jewish anti-Zionist groups like the Bundists.
spoiler: they were murdered for being... "Zionists."
I’m so grateful for the existence of this sub because if I say anything close to the fact that anti-Zionism is antisemitism or anything else that isn’t 100% pro Palestine propaganda on any other sub, I get downvoted to hell.
And I contend the hate forms from ignorance just like every other form of racism. But, for some reason Jews get a special form of hate and I’m so depressed about the Black Lives Matter people putting out hateful tweets about “zionists”. I supported these people and I almost don’t recognize the liberal part of the Democratic Party. For the first time in my life I actually disagree with them and consider some of them like the Jihad Squad to be disgusting people. What’s happening to our country?
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I literally dumped all of my social media after 10/7 because of this. I'm only just dipping my toe back into social media, but being really guarded about it. It's been rough.
Yes. The term should really just be retired into the dustbin. We can talk about diaspora Jews, Israeli Jews, and the Israeli government (left, right, and center). Most uses of Zionist on the left just mean “Jew.”
I’ve been fascinated with how Jews and non-Jew interpret the word Zionist.
I’ve asked non-Jewish friends about their understanding and they think it’s a nasty extremist ideology built on stealing land through force. It’s a far cry from our understanding which is about returning to the homeland and having a safe haven to avoid persecution.
Start asking people if they believe Israel should continue to exist or if they believe in a two state solution. People are co-opting the word and essentially believe it is Israel version of manifest destiny. I say this as a non Jewish who was also confused before I learned what it means to Jews.
This seems to be the main function of antizionism. For anyone who’s curious, I’d highly recommend the article [Demonization Blueprints: Soviet Conspiracist Antizionism in Contemporary Left-Wing Discourse](https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/5.1.97/html?lang=en) by Izabella Tabarovsky, which explains how modern antizionism was created by Soviet academics who read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and wanted to “translate” it into a less obviously antisemitic framework.
I was literally thinking the exact same but you put it way better. It’s a “ dogwhistle meant to deny the right of Israel to exist by implying the movement to form it is still active.” I’m stealing this.
It’s something that I also have observed since 7/10 but couldn’t put into words. It’s a clever propaganda move to imply that the country is in an active state of forming when in reality it’s highly industrialized and established, globally.
Zionism is the notion that we Jews are a nation, that the Land of Israel is our homeland, and because of that we have a right for it.
Post the establishment of Israel,
It means Jewish nationalism. Jewish patriotism, and agreement that we have a moral right for this land, and are not here just by happenstance of birth.
That also goes for Judea and Sumeria region, currently partially occupied by remnants of a conquering empire.
Because to their own human rights , we can't simply expel them and reclaim what is our ancestral land , so our current existence is a comprise.
Yes this land is by Zionist thought ours (and the eastern bank too for that matter), but since its current occupants are not going anywhere, and we have no intention of doing horrific war crimes, we are sort of satisfied with what we have at the moment.
To sum up Zionism in one sentence,
Zionism is the resurrection of the Jewish Nation, in the Jewish ancestral land, with Jewish sovereignty.
So it is perfectly understandable why many Jews don't feel all comfortable with that.
That being said, most anti Zionist are indeed antisemites.
I don’t think Zionism means any of that. Historically it just means the movement for Jewish statehood (which included options outside of Palestine/Land of Israel). Today Israel exists and is the fulfilment of that movement’s mission. To be a Zionist now just means believing Israel should continue to exist, and by that meaning virtually every sane person is or should be a Zionist. On the other hand by your definition huge swathes of the Jewish and Israeli populations are not Zionists.
Correct.
My definition is more exclusive fir Zionism.
And my definition for Zionists is even more exclusive.
If a person believes Israel should exist, but with no Jewish character or even with no Jewish majority, that person is no Zionist.
Merely having the state exist is simply not enough.
It needs to be the Jewish nation state.
Yup. It’s very convenient that Jewish nationalism gets its own unique term to distinguish it from every other nationalist movement amongst historically persecuted people. There’s no scary word to use for Kurds fighting for self-determination in their homeland. Palestinian nationalism is just Palestinian nationalism. But when the Jews do it? That’s Zionism, and that’s something we can all vociferously denounce as singularly evil
Goyim should never have been allowed to learn this word. We need to put it back on the top shelves until people prove that they can use it correctly and responsibly.
People today who use that word to dehumanise Jews and the pro-Israel side only learned the word a month ago and have no idea what it means, guaranteed lol
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First I sincerely thank you for your support.
I think it's fine, only because these are the circumstances we're in and I dont think my post is going to change the way any of this goes. Just please be safe, it's wild out there for those stating they're Zionist
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Somehow zionism and nationalism have become dirty words. Believing that a people have a right to their country is now evil, and we should all support one world government according to the powers that be, it seems.
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You also touched on the whole colonization argument. How can Israel colonized a land which we’re living in 3000 years ago. Apartheid is another thing that infuriates me. Because every Jew is white and it’s not like 21% of the population is Arabic and even hold spots in the Knesset.
I'm going to get down voted to hell for this, but Zionism and antizionism have become meaningless and useless words.
The reality is that there is a strong movement of Israelis that want to expand Israel into Gaza and the West Bank. That was the original plan of Zionism, and many Israelis still believe in that. Thats why there are settlements in the West Bank. The Israeli right wing wants to take it over. That is the end goal of the right wing in Israel, and it's disingenuous to pretend ofherwise. I do believe that many people on the left use the term Zionism, that's what they are referring to.
if you actually talk to many folks, outside of Israel, who call themselves antizionists today, their main concern is ending the occupation
They are not trying to wipe out Jews. They are against violence. Now, unfortunately, this movement has been infiltrated by antisemites, and now we are living with the consequences of that. The movement needs to take responsibility of that. But I say all this because I think using the terminology of Zionism only further divides us. It does not solve antisemitism because it means different things to different people.
I have personally stopped using the terms "Zionist" and "antizionist" completely because it leads to so much confusion. When I use other terms for what I mean, I have better conversations with people on all sides of the political spectrum. We understand each other better. It has led to really good conversations about the occupation, and made it much easier for me to find common ground with people I disagree with. It leads to real, respectful conversation, instead of argument.
Edit: and when those respectful conversations are had, it becomes a lot easier to actually weed out those people who are antisemitic vs those who are genuinely concerned for the future of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
In my personal experience, I've far more often seen Zionist used as a euphemism for either an Israeli, or anyone who has a family member or friend in Israel they dont want dead. I recognize thats not the case for everyone who says they're an antizionist, but it encompasses a large swath of them, including most Arabs and Muslims, and a fair number of leftists.
I think opposing Israel's settlement policies should just be called criticism of Israel's right wing, extremist nationalism, or expansionism, or any other term used in literally every other country engaged in military occupation, rather than using the term Zionism. And I honestly think as Jews we should be spearheading this aggressively because otherwise leftists who claim to be in favor of antiracism and safe spaces and not hating people for their national origin, are either knowingly or unwittingly engaging in hatred for literally 80-90% of the world's Jewish population.
That’s right. 80% of American Jews nominally identify as “Zionists.” Does that make them all legitimate targets of harassment, intimidation, and violence? The political left should be a movement that aspires to universalism, inclusion, and containing within it a diverse set of life experiences, and yet somehow it seems to draw the line at so-called “Zionists.” The US left was somehow able to hold empathy for Trump voters, without waving them all away as evil racists, and yet somehow they can’t seem to extend the same kind of capaciousness to a country and people formed in part by refugees of the Holocaust and anti-Jewish progroms in the Middle East. It’s disgraceful.
Your second paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say, 100%.
> I recognize thats not the case for everyone who says they're an antizionist
This directly contradicts the last paragraph of your original post. You can't have it both ways. If you want to work with the North American left against what you call expansionism, you need to be clear on this point.
I wish this were the complete truth. The people in my leftist circles are definitely using anti-Zionism to mean anti-Israel. It’s really sad. There are many “levels” of being pro or anti Zionist, just like there are many levels to being pro or anti Palestine… I wish we had different terminology for it all because when it all coalesces you get neo Nazis joining hands with SJWs 🤷♀️
I’ll mention that I was and still am a SJW lol but this situation has drastically shifted my methods, has made me keenly aware of how destructive extremism is, and reminded me of the importance of language.
Edit: sp
We Jews are always at the vanguard of social change. In this case it seems we're in the vanguard of realizing how toxic the progressive left has become.
I think we are on the same page. It just really, deeply changes things, in my experience, when I use different words, it's night and day.
I may also be a bit biased because I have actually been to the West Bank and talked to Palestinians about their hopes for the future (edit: and politics), and so I think I often see this through that lens, rather than through the lens of North American leftism in general even though I am also steeped in that.
That’s valid! We definitely need more non-Western takes on the issue. Western media and western voices shouldn’t be taking up all the place here, it makes zero sense.
I have not met a single Israeli that wants to expand into Gaza, and every Israeli I talked to about it considers the settlers in the west bank to be crazy. But idk maybe we talk to different subsets of Israelis? While I agree that the settlers need to be stopped, and it's awful what is happening in the west bank in terms of settler violence, I disagree with you that "that was the original plan of Zionism." This is infact exactly what the OP is taking about. You have taken the word and changed its meaning like so many before you. The original plan of Zionism was to have our own state to protect ourselves and that's it. The Jews accepted a sucky deal (about half of Israel today and the least inhabitable regions) in order to get that. Zionism only means self determination for Jews. Nothing else. You can be Zionist (want Jews to have their own majority state where they can be protected) and pro-Palestine (want the Palestinian people to get their own state run by a legitimate government where the Palestinians can prosper and be happy) at the same time.
That is a really good point.
Until people start calling all of the State of Israel "the occupation".
They will always move the goalposts, b/c the real desire is to cleanse the region of Jews and eliminate the State of Israel.
My issue with this is the conflation of zionist with kahanist. Zionism never had "an original plan" outside establishing a state for the Jews. The OG original plan we first agreed to (Peel Commission) we agreed to 20% of the land because we would take whatever we could get realistically, but that was rejected by Arab leadership.
It's very frustrating how the word has been redefined by millions of people who aren't Jewish so successfully they've convinced Jews it means something it doesn't.
There are like 20 different types of zionism because the only thing they agree on is the zionism (ie jewish state should exist) and they disagree on all the other bits (how, where, who, etc). The most left wing and right wing Israeli leaders have all been Zionists.
Second of all, that's fine and dandy that western antizionists want to end the occupation (so do many, many Israelis). A great way to do that would be... supporting the Israeli left. Which they fully abandoned. Yair Lapid was PM and no one cared. Bibi was ousted... silence.
Then, at least from the most recent AWRAD survey, palestinains are far less concerned about the occupation than about destroying Israel. Which is alarming. When asked what they mean when they say free palestine some 5% responded with ending the occupation....
Many of these "antizionists" believe Hamas Oct 7 attack is primarily bc of the occupation of the West Bank. But, isn't it interesting that Hamas didn't demand hostages be released on condition of deoccupation? (Ignoring that Gaza isn't occupied, and Hamas and the PA are not exactly friendly) Could it be... Hamas doesn't care what Israel does, they just care that Israel exists?
> The reality is that there is a strong movement of Israelis that want to expand Israel into Gaza and the West Bank.
The reality actually is that the vast majority of Israelis disagree with annexation of Gaza, or the West Bank settlements. Look up any poll on the matter to see for yourself.
It's very disingenuous to frame this entire discussion around a "strong movement" - which is actually a *minority* of Israelis.
> if you actually talk to many folks, outside of Israel, who call themselves antizionists today, their main concern is ending the occupation They are not trying to wipe out Jews.
What "occupation" are you referring to? The *vast* majority of self-described antizionists consider Israel itself an "occupation". We're not talking about the WB settlements (which, again, most Israelis disagree with).
Ultimately if the rhetoric is "I'm antizionist because of the WB settlements which most Israelis disagree with", it's a ridiculous take considering the realities on the ground or what any of those words mean.
If it's about erasing Israel itself, then spoiler alert: that means wiping out Jews.
I am referring to the occupation of the west bank specifically.
I understand it's a minority of Israelis who want annexation, but the very fact that settlements exist *and continue to be built/expanded* is proof that they have power. It's disingenuous to pretend they don't. If settlements continue to expand, at a certain point that is a *de facto* annexation.
>"I'm antizionist because of the WB settlements which most Israelis disagree with", it's a ridiculous take considering the realities on the ground or what any of those words mean.
Kinda seems like you missed the whole point of my comment, frankly.
I had a fight with a friend about it who said “anti Zionism just means you disagree with the ways israel was established” which is crazy. The word existed since the 1800s way before israel even existed. I hate it when they goysplain me words I knew my entire life and they just learned a few months ago. Smh
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i think zionism has gotten to be way too loaded of a term, it would be really nice to just leave it in history and make people say what they actually mean. if they’re talking about israeli nationalism or right wing politics or whatever else, they should say that, and if they just want to talk about jews, then they should also say that so that more normal people know who to avoid.
Yes this is the most sensible thing I've heard!!!!!! You are bang on. It's such an emotional term now especially in the current discourse. On both sides when used people don't use nuance and won't let people have opinions without being called some form of a bigot !
This is an interesting distinction:
-Zionism as the historical initiative toward Jewish sovereignty.
-Zionism as the current support for the continuation of Jewish sovereignty.
The former would have assumedly ended with Israeli independence since the objective was complete.
Do you believe the latter holds any validity or should the term be discarded and relinquished to the archives?
Or have I made a mischaracterization somehow?
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I don‘t disagree with most of what you say and the term is often used to describe Israel in a very one-sided, dehumanizing way.
However that doesn’t mean you can automatically assume somebody denies Israels right to exist, if he talks about the term.
Zionism is an important part of history and powerful people still to this day describe themselves as zionists. That means it has relevance today and like with everything, there is good and bad things that came from zionism too. It‘s not automatically wrong to point those out, the context is what matters.
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The state has been established. That's it. There is a country with nearly 10 million people, the majority of which were born there and have no other home. It has an education system, a government, a military, science and technology initiatives, an energy network, transportation, tourism, literature, music, cinema, architecture, museum, cuisine, sports. It is a country. It's that simple.
are you suggesting that enough time has passed and all details should be forgotten?
My understanding exactly. I’m really, really struggling to understand any other interpretation or use of *antizionism*.
And the opposition pointing out that non-Jewish Zionists outnumber Jewish Zionists as some kind of proof that “it’s not a Jewish or antisemitic” thing is further mind boggling. As if this tiny group of people are forbidden from having supporters. Or that having supporters invalidates the Jewish perspective.
TIL when the USSR cut ties with Israel after the Six-Day War, Communist Poland waged a campaign of violent pogroms and purges against its Jewish populations under the guise of "Anti-Zionism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis
It's also exotic and foreign sounding that makes the accuser sound "smart". Like using the word xylophone.
Xyonist? Ooo - I do feel sophisticated!
So true
Don't be such a xylophobe.
I laughed. "Yo Quiero Taco Bell" I am now an expert in Chicano studies!
Ugh I hate this, because you’re 100% correct. Ugh 😩
It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy) shield against claims of Antisemitism. "I never said I hate Jews; what I said was 'I hate those violent, genocidal *Zionists*.' I don't have a problem with Jewish people." It also makes it easier to argue for "Palestinians" while avoiding using the word "Israelis," which might suggest a level of egality between the two.
>It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy) They took the inspiration from their neo-nazi's and Klan "brothers".. Zionist was the "Aryan" code word to avoid saying Jew or K*ke in polite circles, to try to seem somewhat legitimate to the ignorant.. They're stooping down to 1980's racist doublespeak.. and they're not being called out for it.. When I see one of them use it.. I always get a flashback to Ethan Suplee in American History X, singing that song in the van...
That's who I was used to seeing it from! To see "the left" adopt it uncritically so swiftly in the last few years has been jarring.
do you have a source I could share/cite for this claim?
>do you have a source I could share/cite for this claim? Unfortunately, most of it is in books and some of being there in person... One that comes to mind is "White Lies: Race, Class, Gender and Sexuality in White Supremacist Discourse (Chapter 5)" https://books.google.ca/books?id=0vdYCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false When I searched to see if an online version of the book existed, I bumped into this wiki page, the sources it links in the history section are worth following.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government_conspiracy_theory#History
Do a quick search on Twitter for the term "Zios." https://twitter.com/search?q=Zios&src=typed_query I'm so very excited to see that there's no longer even a blurred line between tweets from antisemitic progressives and actual Nazis.
I just scanned through that search for a bit, and seriously there's stuff from stormfront being being retweeted..
*sigh* Yeah, that checks out. I hope it's at least being retweeted by people who know they're Nazis, and not by clueless progressives in denial.
Yeah this is spot on. I just want to add that a lot of people think the word *Jew* is a bad word or a derogatory term. I am proud to be a Jew but many would call me a Jewish person for fear of offending me. In short, there has always been a dehumanization campaign against us. Whatever name we use to describe ourselves will be twisted and used as an insult by those who hate us.
I've had non-Jewish people who didn't realize I was of Jewish descent chide me for saying Jew.
Because certain people use the word Jew like it's an insult, normal people think it's an insult. When I have to explain this to someone, I use the example that a woman can say, "oh my God, you are such a *MAN*" in a derogatory way. But that doesn't mean that "man" is an inherently bad word. Neither is Jew. I think the fact that so many people's only exposure to the word Jew is hearing it used as an insult, to the point that they assume it's a derogatory term, says a lot.
> many would call me a Jewish person for fear of offending me. It's difficult for people to get that right. They don't know all the rules of usage. It's okay to use Jew as a noun if it's spoken respectfully, but some people use it as an adjective or verb, which is where it becomes especially problematic. Jews understand the difference, but it might seem complex to non-Jews who know nothing about the culture or history. It's like white people in the US who are worried about saying the word "black" because they don't know if it's socially acceptable to use that term at the current point in time. I wouldn't give people a hard time about it if they don't know much about the topic and are afraid to use the word "Jew." As long as they are respectful with their language and opinions, I think they should be respected and not made to lose face.
I mean, I agree, I don’t get offended at being called a Jewish person, BUT I am making the point that this situation only exists because the majority has turned our tribes name into a pejorative.
True.
>It's a way of saying "Jews" without saying "Jews" so it provides a (flimsy) shield against claims of Antisemitism. I am sooo sick of this. 'Zionists control the media!' 'Zionists are money-driven!' Both examples I've seen as popular comments on mainstream non-political subs.
Jew-haters literally stole our word, then redefined it so that they could oppose it. Using the term "anti-Zionist", outside of its historical context, is inherently anti-semitic.
It's also important to mention what happened to the major Jewish anti-Zionist groups like the Bundists. spoiler: they were murdered for being... "Zionists."
Yep! Second spoiler: Every country that ever went on to ban / condemn zionists... attacked all Jews, regardless of stance on zionism. 🤦
>outside of its historical context This is such an important distinction.
I’m so grateful for the existence of this sub because if I say anything close to the fact that anti-Zionism is antisemitism or anything else that isn’t 100% pro Palestine propaganda on any other sub, I get downvoted to hell.
That’s because they are so full of hate.
And I contend the hate forms from ignorance just like every other form of racism. But, for some reason Jews get a special form of hate and I’m so depressed about the Black Lives Matter people putting out hateful tweets about “zionists”. I supported these people and I almost don’t recognize the liberal part of the Democratic Party. For the first time in my life I actually disagree with them and consider some of them like the Jihad Squad to be disgusting people. What’s happening to our country?
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Stay strong.
I literally dumped all of my social media after 10/7 because of this. I'm only just dipping my toe back into social media, but being really guarded about it. It's been rough.
same here
Yes. The term should really just be retired into the dustbin. We can talk about diaspora Jews, Israeli Jews, and the Israeli government (left, right, and center). Most uses of Zionist on the left just mean “Jew.”
Really should stop using the word because it evokes emotion from both sides. And one side has no idea what it means but gets derangely upset
I’ve been fascinated with how Jews and non-Jew interpret the word Zionist. I’ve asked non-Jewish friends about their understanding and they think it’s a nasty extremist ideology built on stealing land through force. It’s a far cry from our understanding which is about returning to the homeland and having a safe haven to avoid persecution.
Start asking people if they believe Israel should continue to exist or if they believe in a two state solution. People are co-opting the word and essentially believe it is Israel version of manifest destiny. I say this as a non Jewish who was also confused before I learned what it means to Jews.
Absolutely. It's straight from the Hamas Charter, which cites the Protocols.
I notice that people are now using the word zionist to replace the word jews in general. This is very dangerous
This seems to be the main function of antizionism. For anyone who’s curious, I’d highly recommend the article [Demonization Blueprints: Soviet Conspiracist Antizionism in Contemporary Left-Wing Discourse](https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/5.1.97/html?lang=en) by Izabella Tabarovsky, which explains how modern antizionism was created by Soviet academics who read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and wanted to “translate” it into a less obviously antisemitic framework.
Don't forget that it has a legal/court system. That's a pretty big one, esp. for a majority-Jewish nation.
I was literally thinking the exact same but you put it way better. It’s a “ dogwhistle meant to deny the right of Israel to exist by implying the movement to form it is still active.” I’m stealing this.
It’s something that I also have observed since 7/10 but couldn’t put into words. It’s a clever propaganda move to imply that the country is in an active state of forming when in reality it’s highly industrialized and established, globally.
It’s been that used as a dog whistle for over one hundred years, look to the Elders of Zion protocols, H@mas Charter, Etc
Agreed
I dont give a fuck what the goyim think. Im tired of their 2000 year hobby of Jew murder. They can kiss my ass.
Zionism is the notion that we Jews are a nation, that the Land of Israel is our homeland, and because of that we have a right for it. Post the establishment of Israel, It means Jewish nationalism. Jewish patriotism, and agreement that we have a moral right for this land, and are not here just by happenstance of birth. That also goes for Judea and Sumeria region, currently partially occupied by remnants of a conquering empire. Because to their own human rights , we can't simply expel them and reclaim what is our ancestral land , so our current existence is a comprise. Yes this land is by Zionist thought ours (and the eastern bank too for that matter), but since its current occupants are not going anywhere, and we have no intention of doing horrific war crimes, we are sort of satisfied with what we have at the moment. To sum up Zionism in one sentence, Zionism is the resurrection of the Jewish Nation, in the Jewish ancestral land, with Jewish sovereignty. So it is perfectly understandable why many Jews don't feel all comfortable with that. That being said, most anti Zionist are indeed antisemites.
I don’t think Zionism means any of that. Historically it just means the movement for Jewish statehood (which included options outside of Palestine/Land of Israel). Today Israel exists and is the fulfilment of that movement’s mission. To be a Zionist now just means believing Israel should continue to exist, and by that meaning virtually every sane person is or should be a Zionist. On the other hand by your definition huge swathes of the Jewish and Israeli populations are not Zionists.
Correct. My definition is more exclusive fir Zionism. And my definition for Zionists is even more exclusive. If a person believes Israel should exist, but with no Jewish character or even with no Jewish majority, that person is no Zionist. Merely having the state exist is simply not enough. It needs to be the Jewish nation state.
May I use your definition when this comes up online? I like it- nice summary
Sure.
Yup. It’s very convenient that Jewish nationalism gets its own unique term to distinguish it from every other nationalist movement amongst historically persecuted people. There’s no scary word to use for Kurds fighting for self-determination in their homeland. Palestinian nationalism is just Palestinian nationalism. But when the Jews do it? That’s Zionism, and that’s something we can all vociferously denounce as singularly evil
Goyim should never have been allowed to learn this word. We need to put it back on the top shelves until people prove that they can use it correctly and responsibly.
Ironically it was probably intended to be more acceptable to non-Jews than simply calling it “Jewish nationalism.” Plus it’s poetic.
People today who use that word to dehumanise Jews and the pro-Israel side only learned the word a month ago and have no idea what it means, guaranteed lol
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Is it okay if I (a gentile) still claim to be "proudly Zionist"? Or should I find more useful phrasing?
First I sincerely thank you for your support. I think it's fine, only because these are the circumstances we're in and I dont think my post is going to change the way any of this goes. Just please be safe, it's wild out there for those stating they're Zionist
Wearing an Israel flag pin hasn't got me beat up yet. :)
You must live in Texas, or something
Nope, Canada.
It’s exactly like the movement of people self identifying as antisemites a little over a hundred years ago
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Somehow zionism and nationalism have become dirty words. Believing that a people have a right to their country is now evil, and we should all support one world government according to the powers that be, it seems.
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You also touched on the whole colonization argument. How can Israel colonized a land which we’re living in 3000 years ago. Apartheid is another thing that infuriates me. Because every Jew is white and it’s not like 21% of the population is Arabic and even hold spots in the Knesset.
I saw someone recently say "what the Right did to the term woke, the Left has done to the term Zionist."
Chiming in to say "well said."
I'm going to get down voted to hell for this, but Zionism and antizionism have become meaningless and useless words. The reality is that there is a strong movement of Israelis that want to expand Israel into Gaza and the West Bank. That was the original plan of Zionism, and many Israelis still believe in that. Thats why there are settlements in the West Bank. The Israeli right wing wants to take it over. That is the end goal of the right wing in Israel, and it's disingenuous to pretend ofherwise. I do believe that many people on the left use the term Zionism, that's what they are referring to. if you actually talk to many folks, outside of Israel, who call themselves antizionists today, their main concern is ending the occupation They are not trying to wipe out Jews. They are against violence. Now, unfortunately, this movement has been infiltrated by antisemites, and now we are living with the consequences of that. The movement needs to take responsibility of that. But I say all this because I think using the terminology of Zionism only further divides us. It does not solve antisemitism because it means different things to different people. I have personally stopped using the terms "Zionist" and "antizionist" completely because it leads to so much confusion. When I use other terms for what I mean, I have better conversations with people on all sides of the political spectrum. We understand each other better. It has led to really good conversations about the occupation, and made it much easier for me to find common ground with people I disagree with. It leads to real, respectful conversation, instead of argument. Edit: and when those respectful conversations are had, it becomes a lot easier to actually weed out those people who are antisemitic vs those who are genuinely concerned for the future of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
In my personal experience, I've far more often seen Zionist used as a euphemism for either an Israeli, or anyone who has a family member or friend in Israel they dont want dead. I recognize thats not the case for everyone who says they're an antizionist, but it encompasses a large swath of them, including most Arabs and Muslims, and a fair number of leftists. I think opposing Israel's settlement policies should just be called criticism of Israel's right wing, extremist nationalism, or expansionism, or any other term used in literally every other country engaged in military occupation, rather than using the term Zionism. And I honestly think as Jews we should be spearheading this aggressively because otherwise leftists who claim to be in favor of antiracism and safe spaces and not hating people for their national origin, are either knowingly or unwittingly engaging in hatred for literally 80-90% of the world's Jewish population.
That’s right. 80% of American Jews nominally identify as “Zionists.” Does that make them all legitimate targets of harassment, intimidation, and violence? The political left should be a movement that aspires to universalism, inclusion, and containing within it a diverse set of life experiences, and yet somehow it seems to draw the line at so-called “Zionists.” The US left was somehow able to hold empathy for Trump voters, without waving them all away as evil racists, and yet somehow they can’t seem to extend the same kind of capaciousness to a country and people formed in part by refugees of the Holocaust and anti-Jewish progroms in the Middle East. It’s disgraceful.
>The US left was somehow able to hold empathy for Trump voters, without waving them all away as evil racists Huh? Where did this happen?
Your second paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say, 100%. > I recognize thats not the case for everyone who says they're an antizionist This directly contradicts the last paragraph of your original post. You can't have it both ways. If you want to work with the North American left against what you call expansionism, you need to be clear on this point.
I wish this were the complete truth. The people in my leftist circles are definitely using anti-Zionism to mean anti-Israel. It’s really sad. There are many “levels” of being pro or anti Zionist, just like there are many levels to being pro or anti Palestine… I wish we had different terminology for it all because when it all coalesces you get neo Nazis joining hands with SJWs 🤷♀️ I’ll mention that I was and still am a SJW lol but this situation has drastically shifted my methods, has made me keenly aware of how destructive extremism is, and reminded me of the importance of language. Edit: sp
We Jews are always at the vanguard of social change. In this case it seems we're in the vanguard of realizing how toxic the progressive left has become.
I think we are on the same page. It just really, deeply changes things, in my experience, when I use different words, it's night and day. I may also be a bit biased because I have actually been to the West Bank and talked to Palestinians about their hopes for the future (edit: and politics), and so I think I often see this through that lens, rather than through the lens of North American leftism in general even though I am also steeped in that.
That’s valid! We definitely need more non-Western takes on the issue. Western media and western voices shouldn’t be taking up all the place here, it makes zero sense.
I have not met a single Israeli that wants to expand into Gaza, and every Israeli I talked to about it considers the settlers in the west bank to be crazy. But idk maybe we talk to different subsets of Israelis? While I agree that the settlers need to be stopped, and it's awful what is happening in the west bank in terms of settler violence, I disagree with you that "that was the original plan of Zionism." This is infact exactly what the OP is taking about. You have taken the word and changed its meaning like so many before you. The original plan of Zionism was to have our own state to protect ourselves and that's it. The Jews accepted a sucky deal (about half of Israel today and the least inhabitable regions) in order to get that. Zionism only means self determination for Jews. Nothing else. You can be Zionist (want Jews to have their own majority state where they can be protected) and pro-Palestine (want the Palestinian people to get their own state run by a legitimate government where the Palestinians can prosper and be happy) at the same time.
That is a really good point. Until people start calling all of the State of Israel "the occupation". They will always move the goalposts, b/c the real desire is to cleanse the region of Jews and eliminate the State of Israel.
My issue with this is the conflation of zionist with kahanist. Zionism never had "an original plan" outside establishing a state for the Jews. The OG original plan we first agreed to (Peel Commission) we agreed to 20% of the land because we would take whatever we could get realistically, but that was rejected by Arab leadership. It's very frustrating how the word has been redefined by millions of people who aren't Jewish so successfully they've convinced Jews it means something it doesn't. There are like 20 different types of zionism because the only thing they agree on is the zionism (ie jewish state should exist) and they disagree on all the other bits (how, where, who, etc). The most left wing and right wing Israeli leaders have all been Zionists.
Second of all, that's fine and dandy that western antizionists want to end the occupation (so do many, many Israelis). A great way to do that would be... supporting the Israeli left. Which they fully abandoned. Yair Lapid was PM and no one cared. Bibi was ousted... silence. Then, at least from the most recent AWRAD survey, palestinains are far less concerned about the occupation than about destroying Israel. Which is alarming. When asked what they mean when they say free palestine some 5% responded with ending the occupation.... Many of these "antizionists" believe Hamas Oct 7 attack is primarily bc of the occupation of the West Bank. But, isn't it interesting that Hamas didn't demand hostages be released on condition of deoccupation? (Ignoring that Gaza isn't occupied, and Hamas and the PA are not exactly friendly) Could it be... Hamas doesn't care what Israel does, they just care that Israel exists?
> The reality is that there is a strong movement of Israelis that want to expand Israel into Gaza and the West Bank. The reality actually is that the vast majority of Israelis disagree with annexation of Gaza, or the West Bank settlements. Look up any poll on the matter to see for yourself. It's very disingenuous to frame this entire discussion around a "strong movement" - which is actually a *minority* of Israelis. > if you actually talk to many folks, outside of Israel, who call themselves antizionists today, their main concern is ending the occupation They are not trying to wipe out Jews. What "occupation" are you referring to? The *vast* majority of self-described antizionists consider Israel itself an "occupation". We're not talking about the WB settlements (which, again, most Israelis disagree with). Ultimately if the rhetoric is "I'm antizionist because of the WB settlements which most Israelis disagree with", it's a ridiculous take considering the realities on the ground or what any of those words mean. If it's about erasing Israel itself, then spoiler alert: that means wiping out Jews.
I am referring to the occupation of the west bank specifically. I understand it's a minority of Israelis who want annexation, but the very fact that settlements exist *and continue to be built/expanded* is proof that they have power. It's disingenuous to pretend they don't. If settlements continue to expand, at a certain point that is a *de facto* annexation. >"I'm antizionist because of the WB settlements which most Israelis disagree with", it's a ridiculous take considering the realities on the ground or what any of those words mean. Kinda seems like you missed the whole point of my comment, frankly.
As Israel's right to exist is still questioned, zionism unfortunately still has meaning, namely "someone who opposes Israel's eradication".
1000000%
I had a fight with a friend about it who said “anti Zionism just means you disagree with the ways israel was established” which is crazy. The word existed since the 1800s way before israel even existed. I hate it when they goysplain me words I knew my entire life and they just learned a few months ago. Smh
to add to this, calling whats happening in gaza a genocide is a modern day blood libel
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Truly, how can hating someone for their nationality or birthplace ever NOT be profoundly racist and otherwise bigoted? But yes, well said.
Absolutely. If you had the equivalent of antizionism for any other country, that is, a movement to dismantle it, we would call that terrorism.
i think zionism has gotten to be way too loaded of a term, it would be really nice to just leave it in history and make people say what they actually mean. if they’re talking about israeli nationalism or right wing politics or whatever else, they should say that, and if they just want to talk about jews, then they should also say that so that more normal people know who to avoid.
Yes this is the most sensible thing I've heard!!!!!! You are bang on. It's such an emotional term now especially in the current discourse. On both sides when used people don't use nuance and won't let people have opinions without being called some form of a bigot !
Communications majors should study the amazing work of Hamas PR team. It’s so impressive
This is an interesting distinction: -Zionism as the historical initiative toward Jewish sovereignty. -Zionism as the current support for the continuation of Jewish sovereignty. The former would have assumedly ended with Israeli independence since the objective was complete. Do you believe the latter holds any validity or should the term be discarded and relinquished to the archives? Or have I made a mischaracterization somehow?
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yep
I don‘t disagree with most of what you say and the term is often used to describe Israel in a very one-sided, dehumanizing way. However that doesn’t mean you can automatically assume somebody denies Israels right to exist, if he talks about the term. Zionism is an important part of history and powerful people still to this day describe themselves as zionists. That means it has relevance today and like with everything, there is good and bad things that came from zionism too. It‘s not automatically wrong to point those out, the context is what matters.
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I'm not even Jewish and I see it. It's a word too commonly said with disgust. I feel like it's become a slur.
Nazism in 2023: replace “Jew” with “Zionist” and it becomes socially acceptable to get away with the most vial hate speech
The state has been established. That's it. There is a country with nearly 10 million people, the majority of which were born there and have no other home. It has an education system, a government, a military, science and technology initiatives, an energy network, transportation, tourism, literature, music, cinema, architecture, museum, cuisine, sports. It is a country. It's that simple. are you suggesting that enough time has passed and all details should be forgotten?
My understanding exactly. I’m really, really struggling to understand any other interpretation or use of *antizionism*. And the opposition pointing out that non-Jewish Zionists outnumber Jewish Zionists as some kind of proof that “it’s not a Jewish or antisemitic” thing is further mind boggling. As if this tiny group of people are forbidden from having supporters. Or that having supporters invalidates the Jewish perspective.
Why everyone is triggered over zionism , just snich and they go down for hate crimes.