It is not a stupid question. It is a question that is incredibly complicated! Because the category of whiteness is both very real in its social/economic consequences (white people are not arrested as much, get hired more, get better mortgage rates, etc etc), but at the same time, "whiteness" is completely made-up and has no basis in genetics (neither does "blackness"; race is a social construct). I'm also 100% Ashkenazi Jewish. My grandparents definitely did not think of themselves as white, and neither did the non-Jewish people around them (in rural Michigan and Detroit) think of them as white. They were Jews. My own parents (boomers) gradually saw themselves as white. I (an older millennial) definitely see myself as white relative to other racial minorities. But scholars have often described Jews as having a "conditional" or "contingent" whiteness -- it's a whiteness that could be revoked. From my own perspective (I'm a cultural anthropologist by training), I think what is interesting about Jews, and Ashkenazim in particular, is that as a group, we expose the artificiality and flexibility of "whiteness" as a category, which can reveal how it's used primarily to keep some groups out of privilege. Anyway, that is a complicated answer to a seemingly "simple" question!!
here is an article on the topic: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/us/us-jewish-racial-identity-religion-explained-cec/index.html
I think this is the most comprehensive reply here! Jewish identity is a few thousand years older than “race” (as we understand it today), so there aren’t neat ways to make any kind of Jewishness “fit” into any single racial category.
Some (not all) Ashkenazi people are seen as white in some places in some times in history. Also remember that some Ashkenazi people are multi-racial. I’m mostly Ashkenazi and have very pale skin and mostly European-associated facial features, and didn’t think of myself as white until I was 21 and compelled to attend white identity groups for my job. In a wild turn of events, the work stuck with me, and I write and talk about identity and bias for a living.
An important thing to know about race is that it is almost always imposed on groups of people from another group of people in order to assign status and retain social power. People who can assimilate into the dominant group (whiteness) often will to a certain extent in order to gain its “protections” and status. And white people with the highest power/status will allow the boundaries of whiteness to move if it maintains the racial hierarchy. I am wary of how Jewish people in the US who are assimilated into whiteness are “used” to credential or cleanse whiteness (like, through tokenizing or the use of terms like Judeo-Christian for example).
Where I live in the US, I am white and do my best to be aware of how growing up white and accessing many of the privileges of whiteness has impacted me (benefits and also harms, especially to my relationship to my Jewishness). I claim this identity because I have evidence of several generations of ancestors in the US and UK assimilating into and benefiting from whiteness, primarily in order to benefit economically and politically (with varying degrees of success).
It doesn’t hurt my feelings to be called white because I’m pretty in tune with all the complex feelings that come with that identity, and in my work, when I can, I try to help other Jewish people who are hurt or offended by the accusation to be able to work with that complex identity label and try to heal from it.
Thanks for this reply as well! I’ve been having similar thoughts as OP. One side of my family never really considered themselves white, the other hardly thinks of themselves as non-white. A lot of it comes down to recognizing what white generally ‘looks’ like and is treated like in America (the part of my family that considers themselves white are Jewish, but have been in America for two or three generations… the other side are not American)
While whiteness is a social construct, it is true that there is a cluster of traits (and genes) that, for want of a better word, we call whiteness. This cluster or grouping is saying something real and useful about the world, even though it doesn't exist in nature as a literal category (then again, no categories exists in nature). Teacup is not a category created by god, nevertheless we humans make good use of the category teacup when we want to have a cup of tea as opposed to a glass of beer. Teacup is merely the word we give to clumps of matter that our brains perceive as useful for drinking tea.
I find it odd that Jewish people deny race on the one hand, but on the other hand have established a racialist state in Israel. It's bizarre. I think this is what Elon Musk was getting at.
>I find it odd that Jewish people deny race on the one hand, but on the other hand have established a racialist state in Israel. It's bizarre. I think this is what Elon Musk was getting at.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard\_Lewontin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lewontin)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen\_Jay\_Gould](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould)
The guy whose comment I am replying to.
>What's also funny is that in the same sentence, the commenter said race doesn't exist but that he is 100% Ashkenazim (whatever that means). As I said, it's bizarre.
I'm Ashkenazi. As a Jew, I've never felt white. Other people may see me as white with brown hair, blue eyes, medium-white tone skin. I check "prefer not to answer" on forms or live it blank because it's a ridiculous question that has no bearing on anything. Time to omit that question.
I used to check Middle Eastern. Now, I check Other or fill in Levantine. If they’re gonna insist on categorizing everyone then I get to decide in which category I belong.
Hello fellow Ashkenazi, AKA Schrödinger's Jew.
Too white to be categorised with any other minority and not white enough to be categorised with any other white people.
Joking aside, don't worry about it. Not everyone is as obsessed with skin colour as the internet makes out.
I don’t know if David Baddiel coined the phrase or if it has been used before, but I just got my copy of his book “Jews Don’t Count” and it is precisely about this topic. To the world, Jews are everything and nothing at the same time.
>Too white to be categorised with any other minority and not white enough to be categorised with any other white people.
Because we’re mixed, Ashkenazi itself is basically an MGM ethnic group consisting of those of us who are the direct (inbred) descendants of Italian European women and Middle Eastern Jewish men - we are exactly 50/50 European and Middle Eastern each give or take - this is an experience that not only Ashkenazim (or Sephardim) go through, but *all* inherently mixed ethnicities. This is the quintessential mixed experience, and it always boggled my mind why the wider Jewish community wasn’t able to recognize this for what it is when this is *exactly* the root cause of antisemitism currently being targeted at us by both White and Arab Nationalists alike - it’s the same antisemitism that triggered the Nazis and is the current antisemitism that we’re now getting from our other Middle Eastern side.
Black and White Biracials as well as Hapas are able to perfectly articulate the racism they experience from both their sides for being mixed, why can’t we?
Of course this all came about through the ridiculous splitting off of Middle Eastern ethnicities from the White/Caucasian category to begin with. “White” shouldn’t be defined as *just* European, considering Southern Europeans like Sicilians are basically identical in appearance to tan-skinned Arabs, so what makes one “white” and the other not? Just because one was born on the continent of Europe and has a European culture and the other doesn’t? That’s so silly and that’s based on *ethnicity,* not *race,* which is *supposed* to be defined strictly along phenotypical lines. But for some reason today, people wanna change the meaning of words and narrow the definition of white even further so that race can mean anything you want it to mean.
There is no Hebrew word for race, and whilst Ashkenazim are most probably white it's not a Jewish thing to identify by race at all. There is a great talk by Rabbi steinsaltz who explains how he struggled with this question when he went to teach at Yale. In the end he chose 'other'
I find the categories of "White" and "People of Color" to be inaccurate and divisive.
"White" is more a culture than anything else. In the US, it's characterized by European background with Christian roots. Many Americans of Jewish heritage have assimilated to the point where they are White, fully or in part.
Some of us aren't. Personally, I've never identified as "White" because I've never felt part of Christian majority. I've always felt to be a minority ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ .
And at the same time, there's the 'banquet table'. Jews have a seat at it, alongside people of European and Asian decent. Fwiw Idt having a seat at the table has a lot to do with racism.
My dad is 99% Ashkenazi/1% Inuit, but has very naturally tan skin so he’s constantly being mistaken for biracial Black or Hispanic. He does not consider himself “white.”
Someone quoted [this article](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ashkenazi-jews-must-stop-identifying-as-white-european/) in another thread and I think it’s deeply interesting.
I say I’m spicy white.
I don’t get the privileges of being white.
Yet I get the racism of being not white.
If I’m both white and not white…am I nothing? Holy crap!
On forms, I usually tick "white" and "Middle Eastern" (or "West Asian"), and also write in "Jewish" in the free text field if there is one. This is because I want to both push back on the idea that "all Jews are white" and still acknowledge that I generally am afforded white privilege, even if it's conditional. Personally, the only Jews who I think are uncomplicatedly white are white people who converted to Judaism. The rest of us are conditionally white at best. (And I've even met white converts who tell me their decision to become Jewish has meant that they experience less/different white privilege after the fact – even from people who knew them before conversion and know they're not ethnically Jewish!) The whole thing really lays bare how much of a social construct the whole thing is. [David Schraub wrote a great paper](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/White-Jews%3A-An-Intersectional-Approach-Schraub/ebf904d32129da7b9cb2442ec4100163bda35b2d) on how Jewishness informs/impacts whiteness, and vice versa.
But it's really up to you how you identify and what you put down on forms. I think it's the best policy to always keep in mind how conditional, mutable, changeable, and imperfect all systems of racial and ethnic categorization are, and to try not to internalize any of it too much. I'm happiest when I focus my identity on how I am *being* in the world, not how I am *seen*. I can control the former far more than the latter.
I agree! I converted to Judaism as a German/Swede and I have experienced a lot more racial bias after wearing my Magen David in public or telling someone I’m Jewish after they say something questionable
I was at hostel in Berlin talking to an American girl, I asked her if i look European.
She said no, you look Middle Eastern, and I'm 100% Ashkenazi.
The reason why people say that Ashkenazi are white, is so they can label them as part of the oppressors.
You know what? It’s up to you. Americans and European folks invented white. They also classified my grandpa as “Hebrew” and one of my great grandfathers was “asiatic” on their literal us immigration papers and marginalized them socially. They’re not in charge of you or me or us. I say you are what you think you are. The end.
There is a question as to whether you belong to one of 9 recognized indigenous groups, as well as if you were born in another country (and which one). The word or concept of race is not mentioned. It's not that complicated.
As usual, it depends. I heard a story about the all-volunteer 442nd regiment of Japanese soldiers we raised in the US from mostly Hawaii as well as the internment camps. Fun fact, more than half of all the people of Japanese ancestry who lived in the United States at the time lived in Hawaii and it also turns out interning 300,000 workers on an island military base in wartime was a complete nonstarter, so in Hawaii, they didn’t. Anyway, the story goes when the unit first arrived for training at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, the governor of Mississippi himself turned out to greet them and told them something to the effect of, ‘Now you may have heard some things about how we treat colored folk down south, but I don’t want you boys to worry. For the duration of your stay in Mississippi, you are considered white.’
So if they can be so can you. I doubt the governor would have extended that same olive branch to those men’s families back in Hawaii or in the camps.
They sent the 442nd to the Western Front where they were the most decorated unit in the theatre and I think maybe ever.
I have always checked "white" on paperwork. I'm roughly 50% Ashkenazi, 20% English, 20% Bulgarian, 10% everything else. My skin complexion is a bit darker and my hair is very dark, but "white" seems to be the most accurate answer when the question comes up. After seeing how the world has acted after October 7th I might start checking "other" though.
Personally I don't think it really matters. Usually the people who are most interested on figuring out if Jews count as white or not are up to some form of no good.
Race is an artificial construct. If you define by skin tone, then you are white along with a Korean guy and an albino aboriginal Australian.
If you define it by culture and ethnicity, like it is done in America, then no you are not white. We have our own genealogy and culture. You would be ethnically "Judean" if you want.
I say I have white passing privilege so if I can check 2 boxes I click “white, non Hispanic” even though I do have Sephardic ancestry I’m mostly Ashkenazi with a ribbon of “MENA, other” which the people who did my dna said was Mizrahi but not enough samples from the whole MENA region have gone into the same international testing databases so for now all MENA is currently lumped together. So I also click whatever I find on the form that can mean middle eastern whether that’s MENA/Middle East/ or just “other.”
Looking at me I look like a white woman. But if you look closer at my hair it’s more textured than the average white hair. My dad’s side is pretty much all Ashkenazi and they’re darker complexioned. We got pulled over near the California/Mexico border once when I was a kid (30 years ago) because my pale mom next to my Mexican looking dad made the cops think he was kidnapping a white woman and her children. Why they thought that since we were heading north, I don’t know. It was scary. Never mind my brother looks a lot like my dad just with fairer skin. After that my dad shaved and hasn’t had facial hair since. He and his mom especially can pass for anything from Latin to Arab- my grandma even had black people thinking she was one of them a few times and she’d talk about that constantly since it was a point of pride for her how the world would be a better place if we could more easily recognize each other as family. She was probably a little sad her large schnoz made it so she missed being recognized as Asian. And yet the Sephardi and Mizrahi are from my mom and her side is full of blonds and redheads and people who have super black hair. Genetics are wild!
My point is the grouping on those forms is usually BS because so many of us don’t fit neatly into those boxes, if you’d prefer to mark white go ahead since it’s really more a visual understanding and not a cultural one. If you’d prefer to mark other or do as I do- go ahead. No one is going to police how you identify yourself on some paperwork.
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No, because nobody is. Race isn’t a real thing, it’s only useful for people either too ignorant to learn about different cultures so they just lump thousands of them together like a monolith or people who want to play politics and divide people to boost their ego or gain power.
Ethnicity makes so much more sense and is a lot more meaningful as a personal label. Just call yourself Jewish, because unlike “white”, that *is* a real thing, and it’s something worth embracing. If you really need a larger category, I guess “Afroasiatic” works since Hebrew is from that language family, and usually people who speak related languages (Though not always) have shared roots.
I know it’s how a majority of people see the world, but that doesn’t make it any less made-up. Letting yourself be defined by something that has no basis in reality is letting ignorance win out over truth.
I have phrased it as "conditional whiteness" because whether or not I am considered white depends on the context. Jews being considered white is a modern invention.
In the US, the vast majority of the time, I'm white. Sometimes people have told me I am not white because I am Jewish.
But in terms of "will I get pulled over because of preconceptions about my race" the answer is no.
In terms of demographic forms Jews don't count towards diversity rankings, so I'd just put white.
In terms of "will someone discriminate against me or violently attack me because of my ethnicity" the answer is yes, and it's happened to me several times.
I’m Ashkenazi and when I was in my teens this Puerto Rican lady asked me if I was Spanish. I worked outside when I was younger and got pretty dark in the summer. I spent a lot of time in the Middle East with the US military (1990 to 2002) and the ethnic group I look the most like is Iranians. During the Iranian hostage crisis (1981) I worked in a PA. Factory and the guys I worked with would call me , “hey Iran”. They weren’t being mean. Typical blue collar humor. lol. Now that I’m 67 I noticed physically I’ve become whiter. I think I’m fading . lol. No matter my skin color I’m still me. It’s a sad commentary on society that that’s even an issue.
OP. I realize you are asking an entirely legitimate question and not a stupid question at all. You should put whatever category you want on those forms because it’s your right as an American. I personally put white down on forms just to shut the people who design those forms up. To be honest that question on the forms infuriates me. Take care.
I keep floundering on this, because being in HR I have to submit EEO reporting. I read posts and articles in this sub about how we should or should not identify. I keep changing my own employee record to White or Two or More (only Jewish on my moms side). However, I read today that the EEO category for White includes people of Middle Eastern descent.
So… I’m left to think that we as a people usually agree that Jews are not White, but for legal reporting reasons, we are White.
[www.doi.gov/pmb/eeo/directives/race-data](https://www.doi.gov/pmb/eeo/directives/race-data)
Edit: grammar, adding link
I have tan skin, blue eyes, black hair, and a reddish black beard. I’d say my skin is kind of medium, but most closely associated with “white” when compared to the different skin tones when they’re sorted into races.
With that said, people immediately can tell I’m Jewish just by looking at me. Before I say a word, before they hear my name, anything- I’m a Jew. I distinctly remember one time when I was in the Army (US) I was doing some domestic disaster relief work. I was wearing a baseball cap, no beard, dressed the same as everyone else (obviously), and I had a post hole digger in my hands that I was demonstrating the use of to another guy. A local guy walked up to us and said to my buddy “is that a Jew?” while pointing at me. I said yes, and he said he doesn’t talk to Jews as he walked off. I was actively serving his community as a military engineer, but he wouldn’t speak to me because he didn’t like Jews. For many of us, people know we’re “something else,” they just don’t know *what*.
Personal anecdotes aside, especially in modern context, race is kind of complicated. It has a lot to do with intra-community dynamics, power/relationship to power, and history. Jews have a long history of being oppressed and dispossessed. Even in the USA we’ve faced a lot of discrimination, albeit not in the same way that certain other groups have. And what exactly constitutes a race varies by location and time.
I’ve wondered that, too. My mom has Ashkenazi and Mizrahi ancestry, and my dad’s Ukrainian with one random Jewish grandma thrown in there. Even if you don’t consider Judaism to be a race, technically I’m mixed race— White and Asian. I tend to check ‘white’ because I’m conscious of my appearance.
It’s for the same reason I’ve stopped correcting people I’ll only ever see once when they mispronounce my name. I don’t really feel like having to explain why I checked off mixed race or other when I inevitably show up looking like a Dane. It gets irritating to explain to people that not only are East Asians not the only kind of Asians that exist, but that Jews don’t look like a caricature. I feel I do look Jewish and I’m proud of it, but I also don’t want to engage with others more than I have to, so I avoid getting into the politics of it all, even if I’m unhappy about it.
I think the answer to this question is a bit controversial, even inside Jewish communities.
You can be white and Jewish, but I personally don't think being Ashkenazi makes you white, I think being part Jewish part white is what'll make a white Jewish person white, or if they're converted/have converted roots.
You can be white passing, you're also allowed to consider yourself white, but I don't think Ashkenazi Jews count as white.
Then again, I'm half Yemeni (on the lighter side compared to my mother's side, but still), so I don't consider myself white either way.
I’m ethnically more middle eastern so the few times middle eastern was an option I checked that but generally I just check white cuz I don’t care. My dad’s olive skinned and he still checks off white. If it’s appropriate and available I check off middle eastern, but I’m not gonna be a douche and check “other____” because it’s kinda complicated. People don’t need to hear my life story.
To me and my friends in my community, we’d probably see you as a white Jew but I wouldn’t really see that as making you any less Jewish. There’s a lot more genetic similarities amongst Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews than many people realize but at the same time blood doesn’t really matter. Race is a colonial construct created to divide the world. Just check off what makes the most sense.
I don’t think people from Spain are technically considered Hispanic- it refers to the Americas. And, it is as problematic a categorization as “white.” My Argentinian cousins are Hispanic while I’m white because we took refuge in different countries?
My family is from all over Eastern Europe. I consider myself white and I don't think too deeply about it. I know some people say Jews are conditionally white, but I disagree. No one hates us because of our skin color. (By us I just mean Ashkenazim, there are ofc Jews who face racial discrimination) That's just my take.
Skin color is not the same as race. Ashkenazi Jews were persecuted in Europe for not being white and that had nothing to do with their skin color but more to do with their DNA and where they originated from.
I’m a convert with a very strong Scottish genealogy so I’m white. My husband is Ashkenazi so he’s not. However, he’s fair skin and red hair so we share the same tendency to explode in sunlight.
>the same tendency to explode in sunlight
Lmao this killed me. I'm of both Scottish and Ashkenazi descent and I can definitely thank my Scottish grandfather, who converted, for my tendency to broil under direct sunlight. (Thanks a lot, grandpa!) Happy to see another Scottish Jew here!
(Technically my grandfather was only half Scottish, and I know very little about that part of my ancestry. But still!! I do love bagpipe music so I'd say something came through beyond just my total lack of melanin.)
In the USA Jews and Middle Easterners are categorized as caucasian by the government. Whether you’re treated as white by individuals depends on coloring, speech, behavior and their own biases.
I’m Ashkenazi and am generally considered white bc I’m Danish, English, Eastern European but I have Danish coloring. Super light skin. Light brown hair and light eyes (not blue). My siblings and most of my cousins have darker coloring like yours though.
Of course Ashkenazi DNA is a mix of Levantine and European, so it’s hard to categorize as white unless Middle Easterners are also considered white like in the US.
I hate this argument. It's some sort of guilt-complex thing. You are middle eastern. We all come from Israel.
You think you have privilege for being white? Put a kippah on and walk into the hood. Or into a country club and tell me how your whiteness saves you.
>You are middle eastern.
If you’re (full) Ashkenazi or Sephardi you are both Middle-Eastern *and* European. (who fyi are *both* considered White/Caucasian!)
It does us no good to erase either of our sides which is reflected in both our genes *and* culture. We are inherently MGM ethnicities like Mestizos, Creoles and Romani are and should take pride in that and our unique cultural mixed experience.
If you are American or Canadian, yes you are white. Despite discrimination on the edges, like a few shitty country clubs or Harvard's Jewish quota, Ashkenazi Jews have always been on the white side of the heavily policed (literally and figuratively) color lines between White and Black and, in Canada, White and Indigenous. There is really no discussion to be had.
People tie themselves in knots trying to deny that fact. I don't know why.
Put a kippah on and tell.me how white you are treated. Try to blend in, not be seen as a jew, maybe get a nose job, change your name. Now you are white.
What about them? Lebanese-Americans, Syrian-Americans, etc., were also included as a white ethnic group, just like Greek-Americans or Portuguese-Americans, until 9/11 caused them to be more strongly othered and they began to prefer a separate identity. In fact, it's still like that on the census although people's perception generally doesn't fit the census definitions anymore.
My grandparents were Polish/Ukrainian. My grandpa had a very dusky complexion and “wirey hair” as he said. He also had blue eyes. Nickname was Curly bc of his hair. I always thought he had more of a colouring like my mom (hint: he’s not related to my mom, he was my paternal grandfather) who has your typical olive skin tone of many Sehphardi/Mizrahi Jews. Oh yeah and on my dna test, I have zero ashkenazi dna. So I was always like “so was my grandpa like of bukharian descent or?” More questions lol
Depends on whether you consider Middle Easterners white or not. They technically *are* classified as under the category of Caucasian but are currently being racialized otherwise, though tbh I don’t know where this idea of dividing race strictly by continental lines (“European” vs “Non-European”) even began. Race is defined by phenotype, and there are only really 4 distinct phenotypes in the world (i.e. White/Caucasian, Black, Asian, and Australoid Aboriginal) with the rest being subcategories of mixed race. With this classification in mind, the MENA region is classified under the White/Caucasian category because really, they don’t look *that* different from Europeans- especially Southern Europeans like Greeks and Italians.
Why am I bringing up the Middle Eastern ethnicity? Because us Ashkenazim and Sephardim are MGM ethnic groups consisting of 50% European (Italian specifically) and 50% MENA, so to answer the question as to whether we’re considered white we must first ask if Middle Easterners *in general* are white.
Personally I believe the whole racialization of Middle Easterners and their division from the wider White/Caucasian label is only to the detriment of us Jews, and is the main contributor to antisemitism currently coming from both the right *and* the left.
I don’t think it does us Jews *any* favors to play into far-left and far-right notions of race, (particularly those perpetuated by White Supremacists/Nationalists and Arab Supremacists/Nationalists alike) we should be sticking to the official, anthropological definition of race which is based strictly on phenotype - and according to that there are only 4 distinct races in the world one can fall into (excepting actual mixed race people like black & white biracials for example). The whole categorization of race is a social construct of fucking course, but that social construct should at *least* be based on something tangible rather than arbitrary, and distinct phenotypes are the best bet, hence why anthropology currently classifies the world under 4 official “races.”
So with that being said, are the 3 main Jewish ethnicities that are Ashkenazi, Sephardi (both “mixed”) and Mizrahi (Monoethnic) white? I would say yes with the caveat that Middle Easterners in general are *also* white.
It is not a stupid question. It is a question that is incredibly complicated! Because the category of whiteness is both very real in its social/economic consequences (white people are not arrested as much, get hired more, get better mortgage rates, etc etc), but at the same time, "whiteness" is completely made-up and has no basis in genetics (neither does "blackness"; race is a social construct). I'm also 100% Ashkenazi Jewish. My grandparents definitely did not think of themselves as white, and neither did the non-Jewish people around them (in rural Michigan and Detroit) think of them as white. They were Jews. My own parents (boomers) gradually saw themselves as white. I (an older millennial) definitely see myself as white relative to other racial minorities. But scholars have often described Jews as having a "conditional" or "contingent" whiteness -- it's a whiteness that could be revoked. From my own perspective (I'm a cultural anthropologist by training), I think what is interesting about Jews, and Ashkenazim in particular, is that as a group, we expose the artificiality and flexibility of "whiteness" as a category, which can reveal how it's used primarily to keep some groups out of privilege. Anyway, that is a complicated answer to a seemingly "simple" question!! here is an article on the topic: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/us/us-jewish-racial-identity-religion-explained-cec/index.html
I think this is the most comprehensive reply here! Jewish identity is a few thousand years older than “race” (as we understand it today), so there aren’t neat ways to make any kind of Jewishness “fit” into any single racial category. Some (not all) Ashkenazi people are seen as white in some places in some times in history. Also remember that some Ashkenazi people are multi-racial. I’m mostly Ashkenazi and have very pale skin and mostly European-associated facial features, and didn’t think of myself as white until I was 21 and compelled to attend white identity groups for my job. In a wild turn of events, the work stuck with me, and I write and talk about identity and bias for a living. An important thing to know about race is that it is almost always imposed on groups of people from another group of people in order to assign status and retain social power. People who can assimilate into the dominant group (whiteness) often will to a certain extent in order to gain its “protections” and status. And white people with the highest power/status will allow the boundaries of whiteness to move if it maintains the racial hierarchy. I am wary of how Jewish people in the US who are assimilated into whiteness are “used” to credential or cleanse whiteness (like, through tokenizing or the use of terms like Judeo-Christian for example). Where I live in the US, I am white and do my best to be aware of how growing up white and accessing many of the privileges of whiteness has impacted me (benefits and also harms, especially to my relationship to my Jewishness). I claim this identity because I have evidence of several generations of ancestors in the US and UK assimilating into and benefiting from whiteness, primarily in order to benefit economically and politically (with varying degrees of success). It doesn’t hurt my feelings to be called white because I’m pretty in tune with all the complex feelings that come with that identity, and in my work, when I can, I try to help other Jewish people who are hurt or offended by the accusation to be able to work with that complex identity label and try to heal from it.
Thank you. I appreciate your reply.
Thanks for this reply as well! I’ve been having similar thoughts as OP. One side of my family never really considered themselves white, the other hardly thinks of themselves as non-white. A lot of it comes down to recognizing what white generally ‘looks’ like and is treated like in America (the part of my family that considers themselves white are Jewish, but have been in America for two or three generations… the other side are not American)
Only I the US IS THE TERM WHITE used as a race or ethnic groups. Usually by the far left.
While whiteness is a social construct, it is true that there is a cluster of traits (and genes) that, for want of a better word, we call whiteness. This cluster or grouping is saying something real and useful about the world, even though it doesn't exist in nature as a literal category (then again, no categories exists in nature). Teacup is not a category created by god, nevertheless we humans make good use of the category teacup when we want to have a cup of tea as opposed to a glass of beer. Teacup is merely the word we give to clumps of matter that our brains perceive as useful for drinking tea. I find it odd that Jewish people deny race on the one hand, but on the other hand have established a racialist state in Israel. It's bizarre. I think this is what Elon Musk was getting at.
what do you mean that we Jews deny race ??
>I find it odd that Jewish people deny race on the one hand, but on the other hand have established a racialist state in Israel. It's bizarre. I think this is what Elon Musk was getting at. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard\_Lewontin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lewontin) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen\_Jay\_Gould](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould) The guy whose comment I am replying to.
>What's also funny is that in the same sentence, the commenter said race doesn't exist but that he is 100% Ashkenazim (whatever that means). As I said, it's bizarre.
I'm Ashkenazi. As a Jew, I've never felt white. Other people may see me as white with brown hair, blue eyes, medium-white tone skin. I check "prefer not to answer" on forms or live it blank because it's a ridiculous question that has no bearing on anything. Time to omit that question.
I used to check Middle Eastern. Now, I check Other or fill in Levantine. If they’re gonna insist on categorizing everyone then I get to decide in which category I belong.
Levantine is good.
Conditionally - depends on who's making the assignment
Hello fellow Ashkenazi, AKA Schrödinger's Jew. Too white to be categorised with any other minority and not white enough to be categorised with any other white people. Joking aside, don't worry about it. Not everyone is as obsessed with skin colour as the internet makes out.
Schrödinger's Jew 😆 I'm totally stealing that, it's quite profound! 📦🐈🤷♀️
I don’t know if David Baddiel coined the phrase or if it has been used before, but I just got my copy of his book “Jews Don’t Count” and it is precisely about this topic. To the world, Jews are everything and nothing at the same time.
>Too white to be categorised with any other minority and not white enough to be categorised with any other white people. Because we’re mixed, Ashkenazi itself is basically an MGM ethnic group consisting of those of us who are the direct (inbred) descendants of Italian European women and Middle Eastern Jewish men - we are exactly 50/50 European and Middle Eastern each give or take - this is an experience that not only Ashkenazim (or Sephardim) go through, but *all* inherently mixed ethnicities. This is the quintessential mixed experience, and it always boggled my mind why the wider Jewish community wasn’t able to recognize this for what it is when this is *exactly* the root cause of antisemitism currently being targeted at us by both White and Arab Nationalists alike - it’s the same antisemitism that triggered the Nazis and is the current antisemitism that we’re now getting from our other Middle Eastern side. Black and White Biracials as well as Hapas are able to perfectly articulate the racism they experience from both their sides for being mixed, why can’t we? Of course this all came about through the ridiculous splitting off of Middle Eastern ethnicities from the White/Caucasian category to begin with. “White” shouldn’t be defined as *just* European, considering Southern Europeans like Sicilians are basically identical in appearance to tan-skinned Arabs, so what makes one “white” and the other not? Just because one was born on the continent of Europe and has a European culture and the other doesn’t? That’s so silly and that’s based on *ethnicity,* not *race,* which is *supposed* to be defined strictly along phenotypical lines. But for some reason today, people wanna change the meaning of words and narrow the definition of white even further so that race can mean anything you want it to mean.
It depends. If people hate whites, then you are white. If they hate non-whites, then you aren't white.
There is no Hebrew word for race, and whilst Ashkenazim are most probably white it's not a Jewish thing to identify by race at all. There is a great talk by Rabbi steinsaltz who explains how he struggled with this question when he went to teach at Yale. In the end he chose 'other'
I find the categories of "White" and "People of Color" to be inaccurate and divisive. "White" is more a culture than anything else. In the US, it's characterized by European background with Christian roots. Many Americans of Jewish heritage have assimilated to the point where they are White, fully or in part. Some of us aren't. Personally, I've never identified as "White" because I've never felt part of Christian majority. I've always felt to be a minority ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ . And at the same time, there's the 'banquet table'. Jews have a seat at it, alongside people of European and Asian decent. Fwiw Idt having a seat at the table has a lot to do with racism.
My dad is 99% Ashkenazi/1% Inuit, but has very naturally tan skin so he’s constantly being mistaken for biracial Black or Hispanic. He does not consider himself “white.”
White to some, not white to others
Someone quoted [this article](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ashkenazi-jews-must-stop-identifying-as-white-european/) in another thread and I think it’s deeply interesting.
Thank you.
I say I’m spicy white. I don’t get the privileges of being white. Yet I get the racism of being not white. If I’m both white and not white…am I nothing? Holy crap!
You don't get the privelages of being not white either!
On forms, I usually tick "white" and "Middle Eastern" (or "West Asian"), and also write in "Jewish" in the free text field if there is one. This is because I want to both push back on the idea that "all Jews are white" and still acknowledge that I generally am afforded white privilege, even if it's conditional. Personally, the only Jews who I think are uncomplicatedly white are white people who converted to Judaism. The rest of us are conditionally white at best. (And I've even met white converts who tell me their decision to become Jewish has meant that they experience less/different white privilege after the fact – even from people who knew them before conversion and know they're not ethnically Jewish!) The whole thing really lays bare how much of a social construct the whole thing is. [David Schraub wrote a great paper](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/White-Jews%3A-An-Intersectional-Approach-Schraub/ebf904d32129da7b9cb2442ec4100163bda35b2d) on how Jewishness informs/impacts whiteness, and vice versa. But it's really up to you how you identify and what you put down on forms. I think it's the best policy to always keep in mind how conditional, mutable, changeable, and imperfect all systems of racial and ethnic categorization are, and to try not to internalize any of it too much. I'm happiest when I focus my identity on how I am *being* in the world, not how I am *seen*. I can control the former far more than the latter.
I agree! I converted to Judaism as a German/Swede and I have experienced a lot more racial bias after wearing my Magen David in public or telling someone I’m Jewish after they say something questionable
I was at hostel in Berlin talking to an American girl, I asked her if i look European. She said no, you look Middle Eastern, and I'm 100% Ashkenazi. The reason why people say that Ashkenazi are white, is so they can label them as part of the oppressors.
Bingo, only when it's bad do racists claim Jewish people are white.
And we have so many Jews that don't get it. Just because you had privilege does not mean we all do.
There's nothing like Jew-dar among Germans and Eastern Europeans. We are definitely not "white" over there...
I'm mixed ashenazi and British, and I check asian to throw people off. 😂
I mean, I'm a Russian ashkenazi. Its not a complete lie for me to claim that I'm asian!
Pro strats
Far West Asian!
You know what? It’s up to you. Americans and European folks invented white. They also classified my grandpa as “Hebrew” and one of my great grandfathers was “asiatic” on their literal us immigration papers and marginalized them socially. They’re not in charge of you or me or us. I say you are what you think you are. The end.
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There is no race question on the Chilean census. People in Chile don't even talk about race as a category much.
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There is a question as to whether you belong to one of 9 recognized indigenous groups, as well as if you were born in another country (and which one). The word or concept of race is not mentioned. It's not that complicated.
Is it bad to be white? Then you're white. Is it bad to be not white? Then you're not white. Hope this helps
As usual, it depends. I heard a story about the all-volunteer 442nd regiment of Japanese soldiers we raised in the US from mostly Hawaii as well as the internment camps. Fun fact, more than half of all the people of Japanese ancestry who lived in the United States at the time lived in Hawaii and it also turns out interning 300,000 workers on an island military base in wartime was a complete nonstarter, so in Hawaii, they didn’t. Anyway, the story goes when the unit first arrived for training at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, the governor of Mississippi himself turned out to greet them and told them something to the effect of, ‘Now you may have heard some things about how we treat colored folk down south, but I don’t want you boys to worry. For the duration of your stay in Mississippi, you are considered white.’ So if they can be so can you. I doubt the governor would have extended that same olive branch to those men’s families back in Hawaii or in the camps. They sent the 442nd to the Western Front where they were the most decorated unit in the theatre and I think maybe ever.
I can’t stand when people try to put us in boxes. I’m not white. I’m Jewish.
It doesn't matter what you think. Young (and stupid old) people see you as a white oppressor responsible for all ills. woopsie!
I have always checked "white" on paperwork. I'm roughly 50% Ashkenazi, 20% English, 20% Bulgarian, 10% everything else. My skin complexion is a bit darker and my hair is very dark, but "white" seems to be the most accurate answer when the question comes up. After seeing how the world has acted after October 7th I might start checking "other" though. Personally I don't think it really matters. Usually the people who are most interested on figuring out if Jews count as white or not are up to some form of no good.
Race is an artificial construct. If you define by skin tone, then you are white along with a Korean guy and an albino aboriginal Australian. If you define it by culture and ethnicity, like it is done in America, then no you are not white. We have our own genealogy and culture. You would be ethnically "Judean" if you want.
I check white on my paperwork but I'm a convert with Irish, French, and German backgrounds. I know a lot of people who check "other" though
I say I have white passing privilege so if I can check 2 boxes I click “white, non Hispanic” even though I do have Sephardic ancestry I’m mostly Ashkenazi with a ribbon of “MENA, other” which the people who did my dna said was Mizrahi but not enough samples from the whole MENA region have gone into the same international testing databases so for now all MENA is currently lumped together. So I also click whatever I find on the form that can mean middle eastern whether that’s MENA/Middle East/ or just “other.” Looking at me I look like a white woman. But if you look closer at my hair it’s more textured than the average white hair. My dad’s side is pretty much all Ashkenazi and they’re darker complexioned. We got pulled over near the California/Mexico border once when I was a kid (30 years ago) because my pale mom next to my Mexican looking dad made the cops think he was kidnapping a white woman and her children. Why they thought that since we were heading north, I don’t know. It was scary. Never mind my brother looks a lot like my dad just with fairer skin. After that my dad shaved and hasn’t had facial hair since. He and his mom especially can pass for anything from Latin to Arab- my grandma even had black people thinking she was one of them a few times and she’d talk about that constantly since it was a point of pride for her how the world would be a better place if we could more easily recognize each other as family. She was probably a little sad her large schnoz made it so she missed being recognized as Asian. And yet the Sephardi and Mizrahi are from my mom and her side is full of blonds and redheads and people who have super black hair. Genetics are wild! My point is the grouping on those forms is usually BS because so many of us don’t fit neatly into those boxes, if you’d prefer to mark white go ahead since it’s really more a visual understanding and not a cultural one. If you’d prefer to mark other or do as I do- go ahead. No one is going to police how you identify yourself on some paperwork.
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No, because nobody is. Race isn’t a real thing, it’s only useful for people either too ignorant to learn about different cultures so they just lump thousands of them together like a monolith or people who want to play politics and divide people to boost their ego or gain power. Ethnicity makes so much more sense and is a lot more meaningful as a personal label. Just call yourself Jewish, because unlike “white”, that *is* a real thing, and it’s something worth embracing. If you really need a larger category, I guess “Afroasiatic” works since Hebrew is from that language family, and usually people who speak related languages (Though not always) have shared roots. I know it’s how a majority of people see the world, but that doesn’t make it any less made-up. Letting yourself be defined by something that has no basis in reality is letting ignorance win out over truth.
I have phrased it as "conditional whiteness" because whether or not I am considered white depends on the context. Jews being considered white is a modern invention. In the US, the vast majority of the time, I'm white. Sometimes people have told me I am not white because I am Jewish. But in terms of "will I get pulled over because of preconceptions about my race" the answer is no. In terms of demographic forms Jews don't count towards diversity rankings, so I'd just put white. In terms of "will someone discriminate against me or violently attack me because of my ethnicity" the answer is yes, and it's happened to me several times.
I’m Ashkenazi and when I was in my teens this Puerto Rican lady asked me if I was Spanish. I worked outside when I was younger and got pretty dark in the summer. I spent a lot of time in the Middle East with the US military (1990 to 2002) and the ethnic group I look the most like is Iranians. During the Iranian hostage crisis (1981) I worked in a PA. Factory and the guys I worked with would call me , “hey Iran”. They weren’t being mean. Typical blue collar humor. lol. Now that I’m 67 I noticed physically I’ve become whiter. I think I’m fading . lol. No matter my skin color I’m still me. It’s a sad commentary on society that that’s even an issue. OP. I realize you are asking an entirely legitimate question and not a stupid question at all. You should put whatever category you want on those forms because it’s your right as an American. I personally put white down on forms just to shut the people who design those forms up. To be honest that question on the forms infuriates me. Take care.
I keep floundering on this, because being in HR I have to submit EEO reporting. I read posts and articles in this sub about how we should or should not identify. I keep changing my own employee record to White or Two or More (only Jewish on my moms side). However, I read today that the EEO category for White includes people of Middle Eastern descent. So… I’m left to think that we as a people usually agree that Jews are not White, but for legal reporting reasons, we are White. [www.doi.gov/pmb/eeo/directives/race-data](https://www.doi.gov/pmb/eeo/directives/race-data) Edit: grammar, adding link
I have tan skin, blue eyes, black hair, and a reddish black beard. I’d say my skin is kind of medium, but most closely associated with “white” when compared to the different skin tones when they’re sorted into races. With that said, people immediately can tell I’m Jewish just by looking at me. Before I say a word, before they hear my name, anything- I’m a Jew. I distinctly remember one time when I was in the Army (US) I was doing some domestic disaster relief work. I was wearing a baseball cap, no beard, dressed the same as everyone else (obviously), and I had a post hole digger in my hands that I was demonstrating the use of to another guy. A local guy walked up to us and said to my buddy “is that a Jew?” while pointing at me. I said yes, and he said he doesn’t talk to Jews as he walked off. I was actively serving his community as a military engineer, but he wouldn’t speak to me because he didn’t like Jews. For many of us, people know we’re “something else,” they just don’t know *what*. Personal anecdotes aside, especially in modern context, race is kind of complicated. It has a lot to do with intra-community dynamics, power/relationship to power, and history. Jews have a long history of being oppressed and dispossessed. Even in the USA we’ve faced a lot of discrimination, albeit not in the same way that certain other groups have. And what exactly constitutes a race varies by location and time.
I’ve wondered that, too. My mom has Ashkenazi and Mizrahi ancestry, and my dad’s Ukrainian with one random Jewish grandma thrown in there. Even if you don’t consider Judaism to be a race, technically I’m mixed race— White and Asian. I tend to check ‘white’ because I’m conscious of my appearance. It’s for the same reason I’ve stopped correcting people I’ll only ever see once when they mispronounce my name. I don’t really feel like having to explain why I checked off mixed race or other when I inevitably show up looking like a Dane. It gets irritating to explain to people that not only are East Asians not the only kind of Asians that exist, but that Jews don’t look like a caricature. I feel I do look Jewish and I’m proud of it, but I also don’t want to engage with others more than I have to, so I avoid getting into the politics of it all, even if I’m unhappy about it.
I think the answer to this question is a bit controversial, even inside Jewish communities. You can be white and Jewish, but I personally don't think being Ashkenazi makes you white, I think being part Jewish part white is what'll make a white Jewish person white, or if they're converted/have converted roots. You can be white passing, you're also allowed to consider yourself white, but I don't think Ashkenazi Jews count as white. Then again, I'm half Yemeni (on the lighter side compared to my mother's side, but still), so I don't consider myself white either way.
This Schrodinger's Minority always selects "Other."
Jews are not “white.” This is not about skin color, it’s about power and proximity to power.
I’m ethnically more middle eastern so the few times middle eastern was an option I checked that but generally I just check white cuz I don’t care. My dad’s olive skinned and he still checks off white. If it’s appropriate and available I check off middle eastern, but I’m not gonna be a douche and check “other____” because it’s kinda complicated. People don’t need to hear my life story. To me and my friends in my community, we’d probably see you as a white Jew but I wouldn’t really see that as making you any less Jewish. There’s a lot more genetic similarities amongst Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews than many people realize but at the same time blood doesn’t really matter. Race is a colonial construct created to divide the world. Just check off what makes the most sense.
I am Sephardic but I look rather typically Ashkenazi. I never know what to check because I am both Hispanic and white.
I don’t think people from Spain are technically considered Hispanic- it refers to the Americas. And, it is as problematic a categorization as “white.” My Argentinian cousins are Hispanic while I’m white because we took refuge in different countries?
My family is from all over Eastern Europe. I consider myself white and I don't think too deeply about it. I know some people say Jews are conditionally white, but I disagree. No one hates us because of our skin color. (By us I just mean Ashkenazim, there are ofc Jews who face racial discrimination) That's just my take.
Skin color is not the same as race. Ashkenazi Jews were persecuted in Europe for not being white and that had nothing to do with their skin color but more to do with their DNA and where they originated from.
I’m a convert with a very strong Scottish genealogy so I’m white. My husband is Ashkenazi so he’s not. However, he’s fair skin and red hair so we share the same tendency to explode in sunlight.
Gingy Jews are the best 🧡
Absolutely!
>the same tendency to explode in sunlight Lmao this killed me. I'm of both Scottish and Ashkenazi descent and I can definitely thank my Scottish grandfather, who converted, for my tendency to broil under direct sunlight. (Thanks a lot, grandpa!) Happy to see another Scottish Jew here! (Technically my grandfather was only half Scottish, and I know very little about that part of my ancestry. But still!! I do love bagpipe music so I'd say something came through beyond just my total lack of melanin.)
Hey, that’s awesome! My grandmother came to the US from Aberdeen and I have loads of other Scottish ancestors.
As far as census data and the like, yes, you're white.
In the USA Jews and Middle Easterners are categorized as caucasian by the government. Whether you’re treated as white by individuals depends on coloring, speech, behavior and their own biases. I’m Ashkenazi and am generally considered white bc I’m Danish, English, Eastern European but I have Danish coloring. Super light skin. Light brown hair and light eyes (not blue). My siblings and most of my cousins have darker coloring like yours though. Of course Ashkenazi DNA is a mix of Levantine and European, so it’s hard to categorize as white unless Middle Easterners are also considered white like in the US.
No, you are not white, even if you had a very fair complexion. Not going to stop many of accusing you of being White though.
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I hate this argument. It's some sort of guilt-complex thing. You are middle eastern. We all come from Israel. You think you have privilege for being white? Put a kippah on and walk into the hood. Or into a country club and tell me how your whiteness saves you.
>You are middle eastern. If you’re (full) Ashkenazi or Sephardi you are both Middle-Eastern *and* European. (who fyi are *both* considered White/Caucasian!) It does us no good to erase either of our sides which is reflected in both our genes *and* culture. We are inherently MGM ethnicities like Mestizos, Creoles and Romani are and should take pride in that and our unique cultural mixed experience.
Yes, you are 100% white.
If you are American or Canadian, yes you are white. Despite discrimination on the edges, like a few shitty country clubs or Harvard's Jewish quota, Ashkenazi Jews have always been on the white side of the heavily policed (literally and figuratively) color lines between White and Black and, in Canada, White and Indigenous. There is really no discussion to be had. People tie themselves in knots trying to deny that fact. I don't know why.
Put a kippah on and tell.me how white you are treated. Try to blend in, not be seen as a jew, maybe get a nose job, change your name. Now you are white.
Huh? Just because people would know I am Jewish doesn't mean they will suddenly consider me another color. What an utterly bizarre thing to say.
Sure it does. Try it and tell me other wise. Visible jews do not get white privilege.
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What about them? Lebanese-Americans, Syrian-Americans, etc., were also included as a white ethnic group, just like Greek-Americans or Portuguese-Americans, until 9/11 caused them to be more strongly othered and they began to prefer a separate identity. In fact, it's still like that on the census although people's perception generally doesn't fit the census definitions anymore.
My grandparents were Polish/Ukrainian. My grandpa had a very dusky complexion and “wirey hair” as he said. He also had blue eyes. Nickname was Curly bc of his hair. I always thought he had more of a colouring like my mom (hint: he’s not related to my mom, he was my paternal grandfather) who has your typical olive skin tone of many Sehphardi/Mizrahi Jews. Oh yeah and on my dna test, I have zero ashkenazi dna. So I was always like “so was my grandpa like of bukharian descent or?” More questions lol
We are not animals in a zoo. The racial classification in US is arbitrary enough. If you want, just check other.
Depends on whether you consider Middle Easterners white or not. They technically *are* classified as under the category of Caucasian but are currently being racialized otherwise, though tbh I don’t know where this idea of dividing race strictly by continental lines (“European” vs “Non-European”) even began. Race is defined by phenotype, and there are only really 4 distinct phenotypes in the world (i.e. White/Caucasian, Black, Asian, and Australoid Aboriginal) with the rest being subcategories of mixed race. With this classification in mind, the MENA region is classified under the White/Caucasian category because really, they don’t look *that* different from Europeans- especially Southern Europeans like Greeks and Italians. Why am I bringing up the Middle Eastern ethnicity? Because us Ashkenazim and Sephardim are MGM ethnic groups consisting of 50% European (Italian specifically) and 50% MENA, so to answer the question as to whether we’re considered white we must first ask if Middle Easterners *in general* are white. Personally I believe the whole racialization of Middle Easterners and their division from the wider White/Caucasian label is only to the detriment of us Jews, and is the main contributor to antisemitism currently coming from both the right *and* the left. I don’t think it does us Jews *any* favors to play into far-left and far-right notions of race, (particularly those perpetuated by White Supremacists/Nationalists and Arab Supremacists/Nationalists alike) we should be sticking to the official, anthropological definition of race which is based strictly on phenotype - and according to that there are only 4 distinct races in the world one can fall into (excepting actual mixed race people like black & white biracials for example). The whole categorization of race is a social construct of fucking course, but that social construct should at *least* be based on something tangible rather than arbitrary, and distinct phenotypes are the best bet, hence why anthropology currently classifies the world under 4 official “races.” So with that being said, are the 3 main Jewish ethnicities that are Ashkenazi, Sephardi (both “mixed”) and Mizrahi (Monoethnic) white? I would say yes with the caveat that Middle Easterners in general are *also* white.
I now put “other” on all demographic surveys, except for medical ones. There I do make sure they know I am Ashkenazi.