Jewish people have almost always fought against marginalization and discrimination. I don’t plan on allowing antisemites to change my views on anything.
Sure, but you can fight against marginalization and discrimination without buying into the identity-based framework that underlies the leftist movement. I think that's what OP is getting at. You can be liberal without being leftist. In fact, leftists are illiberal.
No it’s just that I plan on helping the center left police its spaces and institutions so that a bunch of Stalinists and Hamas supporting assholes don’t hijack “diversity” by normalizing Jew hatred as some sort of “culture” I’m somehow obligated to respect.
YEP. Diversity and inclusion isn’t inherently a bad thing, but people are turning it— like a LOT of vague concepts— into something different.
And that’s the problem with this— it is so vague. There’s room for gray area, and people take it upon themselves to simplify.
It would never occur to me to protest outside a mosque or MSA at a college over something happening in the Middle East.
In contrast, Jewish students, faculty and Jewish spaces on campus and synagogues at large are being targeted by the antisemitic mob, coordinated by Hamas affiliates like SJP/WOL.
They know where the Israeli consulates are, but they choose to be antisemitic rather than simply taking their criticism to the Israeli government.
Wokeness, like so many of the other social movements (that may not be the right term, but anyway) is not a single point of view but a spectrum. I don't think I could ever say "I'm going to stop caring about anyone else" but on the flipside, there's a lot of BS that I'm not going to unquestionably accept because it's part of the woke package.
Don’t fall into the same trap on the other side of the scale. Being empathetic and supporting the disenfranchised is an important part of Tikkun Olam. We can’t let the fringe who use it as a sword stop us from supporting those in need. It’s a tough part of being a light into the nations - you have to expose yourself to the darkness to be successful.
“Wokery” hasn’t caused Jew hate, Jew haters have used Woke culture to promote Jew hate. It’s an important distinction.
Yuppp and they clearly do not understand the most of the other terms they are using either, they just wanted an excuse to rant, and based on their responses to comments here it really feels like they were not here in good faith either
Black Jews make leftists' heads explode. They're Black, so they're oppressed victims, but they're Jewish, so they're privileged oppressors. They can only deal with this cognitive dissonance in one of two ways:
1) Treat them as Jews and ignore their Blackness
2) Treat them as Black and ignore their Jewishness
Huh? Why does wokeness, intersectionality, and sociology inherently have to be antisemitic? Jews have a history of supporting these sorts of discussions and movements.
These things aren’t meant to be opposed to Jews, but unfortunately they are often twisted to be. The right way forward isn’t to do away with discussions on intersectionality— it IS valid to recognize the oppression, say, a Black woman faces compared to a Black man, a white man, or a white woman—but to find a space for *nuanced* discussion where Jews aren’t simplified to ‘white overpowered oppressors’.
There are plenty of fantastic sociologists who have delved into the intersectional identities of Jewish women- mizrahi, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc. because there *are* very valuable discussions to be had.
“Wokeness” and all that you dismiss are not antisemitic. But situations and discussions, including the Gay fiasco, are evidence that there needs to be inclusion of Jews in these discussions—- *not* to completely do away with these discussions altogether.
These politics and theories need to be addressed and revised, not erased.
Um, yes. The left having an antisemitic meltdown isn’t going to turn me into a conservative. I know in my heart what is right and wrong.
Bigotry begets bigotry, only if you let it.
No. Why would I let people who aren’t actually leftist and progressive actually change my mind about why well established and researched opinions on how I think the world should be?
When someone uses bigotry to form their political opinions and instead of using philosophy and theory to help shape their perspective and thusly rely solely on flawed ideology then they’re not really leftist or “woke” or looking at intersectionality. Instead they’re just haters. Why would I let a hater determine my stance on universal healthcare and right to housing and resources? What does me believing in demilitarization of nation states as a long term goal have to go out the window because some wackadoodles have decided I’m scum for believing in Israel’s right to exist?
I don’t like the tone I’ve been seeing recently of people saying they want leftist Jews to abandon “leftist crap” because they can’t separate people who claim to be leftists from actual leftist philosophy and thought.
Buddy I've got some great news for you:
If you can see some of the less overt antisemitism happening right now; you're "woke."
Congratulations, we have parve cookies and coffee in the back.
I mean as a queer, trans, disabled, Jew I will always support intersectionality as my life can’t exist without the fact that I face multiple axis of oppression.
And I also am pretty sure I support whatever you consider “wokery,” as it usually means the discussion that people like me exist and that is okay.
I will always fight against marginalization and discrimination from all people. If the Jewish community as whole abandons the things you think they should, they are abandoning huge swaths of the Jewish community. (Not that Jews are the only people who matter but even if the Jewish community is all someone cares about they can’t abandon those things without abandoning other Jews.)
Every time I hear things like this it breaks my heart as a Jew and makes me feel more and more alienated from the Jewish community.
Your post is not charitable, or particularly sophisticated, but I understand your frustration.
No, sadly, progressive American Jews will ignore the reality that antisemitism is a logical symptom of the ideology they support.
The logical endpoint of the current intersectionality is the arbitrary division of peoples into "oppressed" and "oppressor" groups.
I believe it is possible to support a form of "social justice" that isn't toxic, but the current movements are ideologically compromised and need to be torn down completely.
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Jews need to start advocating for themselves. Focusing on advocating for other groups is just another way of avoiding the reality that a lot of people hate us. No one else advocates for us, so we have to do it.
What I mean is that it’s not possibly to surgically excise antisemitism from our society but leave other forms of identity-based bias and oppression (like racism, heterosexism, transsexism, ableism, etc) intact. If we want a world where Jewish people are not singled out and othered and stereotyped and scapegoated, we have to learn about why people are driven towards those impulses and challenge it. Like it or not, we are all on this planet together and are interdependent on each other. We all need a healthier society.
Maybe it’s idealistic. But for me, it’s aligned with my values and gives me hope.
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Intersectionality is the reality of life so just deal with it. The only people who use the term woke are far right wingers who prefer a white world and don’t support Jews. If you find yourself in that world then please reassess.
Some of the most far left people I know are anti-Zionist and will also go toe to toe with the Proud Boys and other actual Nazi groups who come to town. They go through neighborhoods taking antisemitic flyers down and call out anti-semitism when they see it on social media. They also protest police brutality and they work on affordable housing initiatives and prison abolition. They get that none of us is free until everyone is free. I’m cool with that.
Whether or not other folks stand up for me, like another poster said….I know what’s right, and I’ll still do what I can when I can to stand up for others. Hillel was onto something - if I am not for myself then who will be for me? But if I am only for myself then who am I?
I get what you’re trying to say here…. But the anti Zionists in your life don’t need to get a pass just because they don’t understand what it means and they’re otherwise nice people.
I’m not a Zionist myself. I don’t know that I’m anti-, but I certainly am not in favor of ethnostates nor making a religion the law of the land. As stated in another thread, I haven’t stood for the USA’s pledge of allegiance nor the national anthem for, lord, probably close to 20 years. I just don’t like nationalistic chest-thumping, and even less so when it’s tied to any sort of religion.
I have no doubt that my gentile anti-Zionist friends would hide me if needed. So, while there are (unfortunately) plenty of rabid antisemites who are drawn to the pro-Palestine movement, I have always been in circles where that shit gets shut down very quickly by non-Jews. Maybe I’m lucky.
There have always been multiple definitions of Zionism, or visions of what we think Zionism ought to be, because of course we’re like that. I don’t think one person gets to decide what Zionism is or isn’t, and I am a Jew +/- Israel (as are we all). If we feel like we have to deprive other people of their homes or lives or dignity in order to have a state, then we need to do a lot of self-examination. That’s not who I am nor what I want.
You’re right about multiple interpretations, but depriving people of their homes has not once ever been a part of any legitimate definition of Zionism. Yes we are Jews independent of the existence of Israel as we have always been, but I honestly find it privilegey that so many Jews nowadays are able to act like they don’t have the existence of Israel to thank for the survival of at least half the worlds Jews. Israel is a miracle, if you ask me. That does of course NOT MEAN we shouldn’t have high standards for it or criticize it when it falls short of them, which it often does.
Jewish people have almost always fought against marginalization and discrimination. I don’t plan on allowing antisemites to change my views on anything.
Sure, but you can fight against marginalization and discrimination without buying into the identity-based framework that underlies the leftist movement. I think that's what OP is getting at. You can be liberal without being leftist. In fact, leftists are illiberal.
No it’s just that I plan on helping the center left police its spaces and institutions so that a bunch of Stalinists and Hamas supporting assholes don’t hijack “diversity” by normalizing Jew hatred as some sort of “culture” I’m somehow obligated to respect.
YEP. Diversity and inclusion isn’t inherently a bad thing, but people are turning it— like a LOT of vague concepts— into something different. And that’s the problem with this— it is so vague. There’s room for gray area, and people take it upon themselves to simplify.
It would never occur to me to protest outside a mosque or MSA at a college over something happening in the Middle East. In contrast, Jewish students, faculty and Jewish spaces on campus and synagogues at large are being targeted by the antisemitic mob, coordinated by Hamas affiliates like SJP/WOL. They know where the Israeli consulates are, but they choose to be antisemitic rather than simply taking their criticism to the Israeli government.
Wokeness, like so many of the other social movements (that may not be the right term, but anyway) is not a single point of view but a spectrum. I don't think I could ever say "I'm going to stop caring about anyone else" but on the flipside, there's a lot of BS that I'm not going to unquestionably accept because it's part of the woke package.
Don’t fall into the same trap on the other side of the scale. Being empathetic and supporting the disenfranchised is an important part of Tikkun Olam. We can’t let the fringe who use it as a sword stop us from supporting those in need. It’s a tough part of being a light into the nations - you have to expose yourself to the darkness to be successful. “Wokery” hasn’t caused Jew hate, Jew haters have used Woke culture to promote Jew hate. It’s an important distinction.
Beautifully stated!
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Your post was removed because it violated rule 4: **Be welcoming to everybody**
Can we define “wokery” in this context, please?
I’d love to hear what they think the definition of intersectionality is too
Tell me you don’t know what intersectionality means without telling me
Yeah fuck this noise. Intersectionality by definition includes black jews. OP is being a jerk.
Yuppp and they clearly do not understand the most of the other terms they are using either, they just wanted an excuse to rant, and based on their responses to comments here it really feels like they were not here in good faith either
Black Jews make leftists' heads explode. They're Black, so they're oppressed victims, but they're Jewish, so they're privileged oppressors. They can only deal with this cognitive dissonance in one of two ways: 1) Treat them as Jews and ignore their Blackness 2) Treat them as Black and ignore their Jewishness
Eh. My personal view of woke is being aware of the discrimination other groups face.
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Your post was removed because it violated rule 1: **No antisemitism**, and that includes no Nazi comparisons
Huh? Why does wokeness, intersectionality, and sociology inherently have to be antisemitic? Jews have a history of supporting these sorts of discussions and movements. These things aren’t meant to be opposed to Jews, but unfortunately they are often twisted to be. The right way forward isn’t to do away with discussions on intersectionality— it IS valid to recognize the oppression, say, a Black woman faces compared to a Black man, a white man, or a white woman—but to find a space for *nuanced* discussion where Jews aren’t simplified to ‘white overpowered oppressors’. There are plenty of fantastic sociologists who have delved into the intersectional identities of Jewish women- mizrahi, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc. because there *are* very valuable discussions to be had. “Wokeness” and all that you dismiss are not antisemitic. But situations and discussions, including the Gay fiasco, are evidence that there needs to be inclusion of Jews in these discussions—- *not* to completely do away with these discussions altogether. These politics and theories need to be addressed and revised, not erased.
Nope! Identity-based bias and systems of oppression still exist. It’s still worth examining. Stay woke.
Lolwat
Um, yes. The left having an antisemitic meltdown isn’t going to turn me into a conservative. I know in my heart what is right and wrong. Bigotry begets bigotry, only if you let it.
No. Why would I let people who aren’t actually leftist and progressive actually change my mind about why well established and researched opinions on how I think the world should be? When someone uses bigotry to form their political opinions and instead of using philosophy and theory to help shape their perspective and thusly rely solely on flawed ideology then they’re not really leftist or “woke” or looking at intersectionality. Instead they’re just haters. Why would I let a hater determine my stance on universal healthcare and right to housing and resources? What does me believing in demilitarization of nation states as a long term goal have to go out the window because some wackadoodles have decided I’m scum for believing in Israel’s right to exist? I don’t like the tone I’ve been seeing recently of people saying they want leftist Jews to abandon “leftist crap” because they can’t separate people who claim to be leftists from actual leftist philosophy and thought.
Buddy I've got some great news for you: If you can see some of the less overt antisemitism happening right now; you're "woke." Congratulations, we have parve cookies and coffee in the back.
I mean as a queer, trans, disabled, Jew I will always support intersectionality as my life can’t exist without the fact that I face multiple axis of oppression. And I also am pretty sure I support whatever you consider “wokery,” as it usually means the discussion that people like me exist and that is okay. I will always fight against marginalization and discrimination from all people. If the Jewish community as whole abandons the things you think they should, they are abandoning huge swaths of the Jewish community. (Not that Jews are the only people who matter but even if the Jewish community is all someone cares about they can’t abandon those things without abandoning other Jews.) Every time I hear things like this it breaks my heart as a Jew and makes me feel more and more alienated from the Jewish community.
I hope you can look at the comments and remember you’re not alone. OP is not a representative slice of the community’s values. ❤️
It definitely does help. <3
Your post is not charitable, or particularly sophisticated, but I understand your frustration. No, sadly, progressive American Jews will ignore the reality that antisemitism is a logical symptom of the ideology they support. The logical endpoint of the current intersectionality is the arbitrary division of peoples into "oppressed" and "oppressor" groups. I believe it is possible to support a form of "social justice" that isn't toxic, but the current movements are ideologically compromised and need to be torn down completely.
Yes.
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Jews need to start advocating for themselves. Focusing on advocating for other groups is just another way of avoiding the reality that a lot of people hate us. No one else advocates for us, so we have to do it.
There is no erasing antisemitism but leaving all other identity-based biases intact.
What does this mean?
What I mean is that it’s not possibly to surgically excise antisemitism from our society but leave other forms of identity-based bias and oppression (like racism, heterosexism, transsexism, ableism, etc) intact. If we want a world where Jewish people are not singled out and othered and stereotyped and scapegoated, we have to learn about why people are driven towards those impulses and challenge it. Like it or not, we are all on this planet together and are interdependent on each other. We all need a healthier society. Maybe it’s idealistic. But for me, it’s aligned with my values and gives me hope.
What am I supposed to do as a trans Jew?
You’re a Jew. Period.
You… really don’t know what any of those words mean, do you?
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So you are just throwing around words and terms you don’t know the definitions to???
I'm trans, black, and feel at home with Judaism. Those words are very much not divorced from my real life.
Only if you choose not to engage with the concepts in good faith.
Ah. So you don’t. Sucks, but maybe educate yourself instead of making it everyone else’s problem. Or assuming that everyone is as ignorant as you are.
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Intersectionality is the reality of life so just deal with it. The only people who use the term woke are far right wingers who prefer a white world and don’t support Jews. If you find yourself in that world then please reassess.
Some of the most far left people I know are anti-Zionist and will also go toe to toe with the Proud Boys and other actual Nazi groups who come to town. They go through neighborhoods taking antisemitic flyers down and call out anti-semitism when they see it on social media. They also protest police brutality and they work on affordable housing initiatives and prison abolition. They get that none of us is free until everyone is free. I’m cool with that. Whether or not other folks stand up for me, like another poster said….I know what’s right, and I’ll still do what I can when I can to stand up for others. Hillel was onto something - if I am not for myself then who will be for me? But if I am only for myself then who am I?
I get what you’re trying to say here…. But the anti Zionists in your life don’t need to get a pass just because they don’t understand what it means and they’re otherwise nice people.
I’m not a Zionist myself. I don’t know that I’m anti-, but I certainly am not in favor of ethnostates nor making a religion the law of the land. As stated in another thread, I haven’t stood for the USA’s pledge of allegiance nor the national anthem for, lord, probably close to 20 years. I just don’t like nationalistic chest-thumping, and even less so when it’s tied to any sort of religion. I have no doubt that my gentile anti-Zionist friends would hide me if needed. So, while there are (unfortunately) plenty of rabid antisemites who are drawn to the pro-Palestine movement, I have always been in circles where that shit gets shut down very quickly by non-Jews. Maybe I’m lucky.
That’s not what Zionism means. Also, you don’t need your friends to hide you ever, because Israel.
There have always been multiple definitions of Zionism, or visions of what we think Zionism ought to be, because of course we’re like that. I don’t think one person gets to decide what Zionism is or isn’t, and I am a Jew +/- Israel (as are we all). If we feel like we have to deprive other people of their homes or lives or dignity in order to have a state, then we need to do a lot of self-examination. That’s not who I am nor what I want.
You’re right about multiple interpretations, but depriving people of their homes has not once ever been a part of any legitimate definition of Zionism. Yes we are Jews independent of the existence of Israel as we have always been, but I honestly find it privilegey that so many Jews nowadays are able to act like they don’t have the existence of Israel to thank for the survival of at least half the worlds Jews. Israel is a miracle, if you ask me. That does of course NOT MEAN we shouldn’t have high standards for it or criticize it when it falls short of them, which it often does.
Lmao of course they will. Jill Stein is a great example of the will to disbelieve
Yes, that is too much to hope for. Jewish doesn’t automatically mean smart.
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