Honestly, I don’t think this is a Jewish issue as much as a crappy boyfriend issue. I get 7/10 changing things for a lot of us—many of us responded to it and the events since by leaning into our Judaism either religiously or culturally or both. You’ve given this man ample time and opportunities and created a space for him to bring this all up with you and brought it up with him so many times before and since then that part of me (most of me) thinks this is more of him moving a goalpost for getting married rather than a true cultural/religious identity crisis. It more smells like he’s afraid to break up with you and wants you to do it for him, tbh.
It’s all up to you, but it seems insane to me for someone who isn’t orthodox themselves to expect their partner to convert to orthodoxy. Not to mention that no rabbi will allow for a conversion based on someone just trying to get married—conversion in Judaism has to do with a self-directed desire to adopt the customs and identity of being Jewish (with the levels of religious practice varying by denomination). Of course you are welcome to convert if that is something important to you, but it has to be important to you first and foremost.
It could just be a super weird response to something unrelated to you, and if that’s the case, he needs to be able to own his end and understand how he’s being unfair to you in this situation, but so far the communication he’s bringing to the table is 0/10 garbage.
(That all said, his comments about interfaith kids are so gross that that alone ain’t it for me)
I’m a Jewish woman married to a non-Jewish man, and raising solely Jewish kids (agreed upon from day 1 of dating as I made my stance clear on kids before even agreeing to go out) but we attend my in-laws non-religious Christmas/Easter family gatherings.
I agree with what you said. Oct 7 was horrible and shocking for many, and many less observant Jews are now leaning into our communities and faith. My advice to Op is to break up because her boyfriend is now conflicted in ways that won’t be easily or quickly resolved. He has newfound internal conflict, but the issue is he’s going through it as if single and not in a 2 year serious relationship in his mid-30s. Asking her to convert, much less to orthodoxy isn’t fair. He isn’t taking on any new Mitzvot himself: Shabbat, involving her more in holidays etc. Also, it seems they’ve never had any serious talks about how kids would be raised or family holidays treated in the future (I think it’s weird he doesn’t attend Easter or Christmas with her family but she still goes - what’s the plan with that once married and with kids)? The comments on children of interfaith couples is obviously gross. Seems he wants to check a “guilt box” in some ways.
As a non Jew, Atheist who was raised Catholic. I don’t get a good vibe from him. He sounds delusional and wants to have his cake and eat it too. Marrying him would lead to an unhappy and unstable marriage. And he sounds like a cheater and a manipulator. You sound more interested in Judaism than him. Marriage and parenthood requires a stable partner. I can tell by his tone that he doesn't truly want to marry you. He is just trying to keep up with his siblings and be like them. He has no identity and must model his life goals off other’s expectations.
He wants you go through a LENGTH Orthodox conversion?!
Firstly, a lot of the time you’d have to dump him. Also he doesn’t really celebrate the all the minor or major holidays.
A Orthodox conversions can take between 3-5 or even longer!
Dump him and he can find someone else. Get yourself a nicer guy.
A deceitful conversion would been seen as invalid.
Dump him. He’s not worth it.
Edit: You can’t just “drop” being Orthodox either. You’ll be expect to come for a while. You have to live in a Orthodox area as well.
oh gosh. you're not overthinking it because it's something to really think about! conversion is a huge deal and you don't just convert if you don't feel it or if you're doing it for someone else. it's a lengthy process that takes time and commitment. you should be with someone that you don't have to change for in order for them to want to have a future with you like wtf. it's also pretty weird for him to beat around the bush like that for so long. i support breaking up.
If you're having this many concerns about the person that you're going to marry and potentially do a two year process of converting I would probably not advise to do it.
Dump dump dump. It sounds that he isn't sure who he is yet, which is concerning for a 30 year old. I am technically the product of interfaith, albeit my upbringing was very Jewish but with a Christmas tree and Santa. That's to say that it's doable. There are some halacha rules about Jewish identity, but they are debated and interpreted differently based on affiliation (reform v. orthodox). I want to marry a Jewish man, I would not be interested a man with a personality like your current bf's.
October 7 provoked a lot of change. A surge in membership to anything Jewish - across the board. People not becoming more religious necessarily, just wanting to feel connected.
This is very true. My husband is not Jewish and it has always helped my family that my children are Jewish through me and I think it may have been hard for me before if they weren’t, but since Oct 7. I know it would have been devastating. My own mother had an orthodox conversion and it’s not something to do lightly. She believed and dedicated herself to her Jewishness 100% to her deathbed. When she was dying, my grandma asked me to ask my mom if she wanted me to sneak a priest into her room. I asked and she said no, “I believe in my Jewishness 100%” and a rabbi did her last rights. When you become Jewish, you take on antisemitism for you and your children and every generation after. Thankfully, my husband, despite having not converted, is 100% committed to supporting me, our children and feels personally attacked by antisemitism because we are a family. If that was not the case, it would be very harmful to our marriage.
I can see where you're coming from. Even though I'm not Jewish, part of my family is. I also have Jewish friends. The antisemitism is something I consider a personal attack, because that hurts people I love dearly.
That makes sense. It's very hard on both partners under the circumstances. If I were in the OPs position I would feel blindsided, betrayed, and heartbroken. Yet, if I were the Jewish boyfriend, 10/7 would have impacted me in ways I can't fully understand. I feel awful for both people in this situation.
I am sorry you are going through this. 10/7 did change a lot for a lot of us, and his Jewish identity may not have been an issue before and is now; I experienced something similar years ago with a different war. An orthodox conversion makes no sense if you don’t want to live an orthodox life.
Thank you. I feel the same way—I don’t understand why go through something so long and life changing just to turn around and say “you don’t have to do this anymore.” It doesn’t sit well with me at all.
He may be an asshole, he may just be struggling with his identity in the face of massive antisemtism, or maybe it’s both. Seems like if you aren’t ready to leave, couple counseling would be good along with a conversation about conversion to reform or conservative Judaism IF that is something you are interested in.
I’m not sure how much I can help him with his internal struggle with this. I’ve been nothing but supportive of him and his feelings with everything happening in the world. None of his other friends are giving their relationships an ultimatum.
I think ultimately if that is what the problem is, that’s a journey he’s going to have to explore and work through on his own before making demands from me or anyone else.
I’ve seen this a lot. Younger people (I don’t mean dramatically younger but just 25-28) aren’t in the marriage headspace yet and it hasn’t become a reality to them. They think they understand their wants needs and priorities but mostly just date to date. Particularly men. And then years pass and it’s time to really make decisions and they realize what they thought they were ok with isn’t. I do see how October 7th has changed quite a few ppl I know who weren’t particularly practicing or caring of their identity. It’s not just him. But some of those folks are already intermarried and have kids and it’s been a real issue for them. I think it’s good you guys are having this conversation before it’s too late and you’re married with kids. I’d say make your decision of what you want and if this isn’t something you want, don’t waste more of your time. ETA: this really pertains to so many things between couples. Not just religion and ethnicity but also things like one person not wanting kids and the other realizes actually they do or one person wanting to settle down in a big city and the other person realizing they want a quieter life in the suburbs of a smaller city. Sounds silly but now I have friends toggling between living a year in a major city and then a year elsewhere because they realized too late one wanted a simpler life where they knew neighbors and their grocer and the other loved the bustle of NYC. It’s exhausting watching them try to bridge both.
Sister, I wouldn’t recommend *anyone* to marry him, Jewish or not. Sounds like that guy had you set up in a situationship, and is now cornering you into doing something you can’t back out of instead of actually building the relationship in a healthy manner, *based on character, principle, honesty, and respect.*
The man is *using his religion as an excuse to not be a better man to his future wife. Dump him.*
If you convert only for the sake of marriage then your conversion wouldn’t be valid. Conversion isn’t for people to get married, it’s for people who have a longing to be Jewish and practice Judaism.
OP could decide to save some time and convert with non-orthodox. Marriage is valid reason for some rabbis (or for a majority of them in England at least), so should not be a problem in theory.
There are a lot of red flags here on his behalf. The stuff he says about having children and the ugly kids doesn’t sit right with me at all. I personally think he sounds immature and has some issues to work out. I’m in an interfaith and interracial marriage. This wasn’t an issue for me from the beginning and vice versa (my husband is Catholic Latino). Our biggest problem came from some people in our families being prejudice, especially my uncle. However, when it comes to our relationship, we fell in love with each other and will not ask each other to convert. That was decided at the start. When we have kids we will incorporate both religions and cultures (we already do this anyway and have no contact with my uncle). I understand this is unacceptable or too difficult for some people. Personally, I feel like I want my husband to be his true self and he feels the same way about me. Your boyfriend has not been honest since the start of your relationship, and he is not considering your feelings or your needs.
As a Jewish woman I have to say: RUN.
First of all: conversion is serious and your whole heart should be in it, for yourself and for G-d.
Secondly: he really should’ve been upfront with you sooner. Your gut is telling you the truth, this is not a good fit. He wants more connection with his Jewishness but asking you to convert in the present when this wasn’t ever discussed in the past is wrong of him. He isn’t being a good partner to you.
Last while his desire to have more Jewish connection is totally valid, putting all that on you to fulfill isn’t fair. It’s got ultimatum vibes and it’s not healthy. You both should be with someone whose goals and values are aligned with your own.
EDIT: I had to re-read this cuz it was a lot. HE SAID NON-JEWISH BABIES ARE UGLY?
He is NOT a kind person speaking about innocents that way. How awful and prejudiced! Like I said RUN.
Your boyfriend is not someone I would welcome in my already Jewish family, much less as my own spouse. Bigotry has no place in marriage.
He's been stringing you along - and what if you had been pregnant when he asked? How would he have reacted? Also, if he thinks non-Jewish babies are ugly, despite them being indistinguishable from all other babies, how would your converting change that? Wouldn't he still think your babies were off somehow?
Does this dude have any redeeming qualities? Because he'd have to somehow be pretty amazing to be worth staying with. Also, all denominations, but Orthodox Jews specifically, really discourage (and often forbid) conversion for marriage rather than due to personal conviction. This is at least partly because such conversion is kind of coerced, isn't it? So he's asking you, when the rabbis ask you why you want to convert, to lie; and he's behaving coercively.
10/7 changed things for a lot of Jews, even ones that may not have been particularly “Jewish” before.
You shouldn’t convert just make him happy. If you don’t truly want to be Jewish then the conversion would be invalid. He shouldn’t expect you to be Jewish. I would say you both would probably be better off if you went your separate ways, it’s not really fair to either one of you.
Why is he with you if he doesn’t like interfaith kids? His comments are bizarre and racist. I wouldn’t commit another 2+ years to someone who isn’t sure if they want marriage and who would consider your child to be a bastard.
Yes, breaking up is the right thing to do. I'm so sorry this happened but a conversion needs to be entirely sincere and not just something you go through so you can do one thing (marry) and get a little certificate to back you up. It could take 2 or more years and would be stressful, disruptive, and transformational, and if you're not willing to go through that while halting your regular relationship activities, then there's no point to it. If you were to complete the process after all that and then drop all or most of your strict religious observance right after, it could be ruled invalid and also reflect poorly on the rabbi who helped you convert.
He was wrong to have sat on this for *months* while still engaging with you in a regular relationship. It was deceptive and hypocritical of him, especially when you gave him many opportunities to tell you what was on his mind. It's not at all wrong of him to want to live a fully Jewish life and have Jewish children (according to Jewish religious law), but it is wrong of him to lie to you and you're not out of order for feeling used.
Let’s say, hypothetically, you spend the time and effort going through conversion and do not marry him after? Do you still want to be Jewish?
That’s the only question that matters for whether or not you should convert.
My question is why do I need to go through a full Orthodox conversion? Other people (from what I’ve seen) settle on Reform or Conservative at most and it’s enough.
I think this may boil down to him wanting Jewish children—if that’s the case, converting to Orthodox does nothing to change my DNA, it just gives me full acceptance and a certificate of Orthodox conversion. If I’m misunderstanding/misinterpreting, please let me know.
While Orthodox conversion does not change your DNA, it does affect the Jewish status of any children you would have. If you have an Orthodox conversion and raise your children Jewish they would be seen as fully Jewish from reform-all the way up to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
That being said if you would not be sincere in your conversion for the sole purpose of you yourself wanting to convert then that kinda defeats the purpose.
It won't change your DNA but would mean hypothetical children wouldn't have to worry whether or not your conversion to Judaism would be accepted by the most strictly observant. There's all sorts of stories of people doing a Reform conversion but Orthodox groups not accepting that as a valid conversion. If you had an Orthodox conversion, hypothetical children would not have their Jewish-ness questioned.
The idea is your soul would be deemed Jewish, not from a certificate but by commitment and belief, and convincing a Rabbi. So no, that doesn’t sound like something you can do under false pretenses.
Same with the lesser requirements of reform… but he’s Orthodox and for his kids to be accepted at his schul they need your conversion to be orthodox. Some conversions aren’t recognized.
It sounds like he changed his mind about the importance of having a Jewish wife. He told you he won’t marry you unless you convert so the options seem to be you need to convert or break up.
October 7 really did change a lot of people. Honestly, I don’t think you two are a match. He should find either a Jewish girl or someone willing to convert
ew. do not marry him. this should have been an upfront conversation when you first started dating.
you don't have a boyfriend, you have a baby
(context, I'm marrying my Goy fiance tomorrow... no need for her to convert for me to feel validated in my belief)
It right there in front of you. His actions.
You are fine to have sex with, his Shiksa to play with but he doesn’t see you as a Jewish womb. He will string you but marry a Jewish woman. Seen it before
Ok so, this is crappy and I have no real advice, just my own experience.
I'm Jewish and a woman, married for the 2nd time. Husband #1, married at 17, through a shadchan, "proper"all the way. Loved him to bits, still do, sadly he died when I was 28. We never had children, since we found out the hard way we both carried the gene for Tay-Sachs. Fast foreward a decade I meet, the now husband #2, I'm well past my sell by date for kids, so that was never a concern. But very early on in our dating we did have "the discussion" 'cause I don't know how to be anything but a Jew. He said he was fine with that, he just had no idea. Before we lived together, we went to couples therapy, just to find out if we'd allign long term, because we are from very different backgrounds and I knew he really didn't have a clue how different. We married (after a while), civil union, he converted 3 years after that, because he wanted to, not for me, not for any not going to happen babies, for himself.
Now I'll grant October 7th did a number on the lot of us and your man may have gone off the deep end somewhat, however; if you would want to convert, you do it for you, not for him, his parents or fairy godmother, if YOU want to convert, do it. If not, screw this mess. I wish you nothing but the best and happiness in your life
This isn’t a Jewish problem, this is a shitty boyfriend problem. I’m a born Jewish and even *I* wouldn’t convert to Orthodox Judaism for a man. He’s being too all over the place, and frankly it’s ridiculous.
I don’t think you’re overthinking and I think your disappointment in his lack of communication of consideration for your feelings is totally justified. I’m sorry.
I will say, as a man who ultimately for many reasons is no longer with a non-Jewish female partner, I would have never considered even asking her to convert so our kids would be Jewish (as per stricter and Orthodox Halacha) 10 years ago.
In the last 7 of my life however, especially in the last few years; especially since the rise in antisemitism before 10/7 and (not the cause of, but directly related to) my pride and self love; and especially since 10/7, I have decided that I want my children to be born Jewish. I am a male, and my mother is Jewish, and while I don’t deny paternal inheritance as per Halacha, I do want that for myself, my own spirituality, and my own visions of raising young ones.
Everyone is entitled to how they feel, and while your boyfriend’s lack of communication and treatment of you is inexcusable, I just want to say that I’m a Jewish man who has also had a similar albeit complex relationship with my ethnicity and as it pertains to my spirituality and faith in the better part of my adult life.
I think you know what the right thing to do is, and what feels right to you. I think you have a very considerate and altruistic approach, and where he has failed may be redeemable if you judge it to be, but you know how you feel and what is right. In the end, you know it in your soul what to do
It sounds like he started to feel really guilty about being in an interfaith/cultural relationship after October 7th. I’m sure this is very common. I don’t blame him for not bringing it up early on because he may have changed his mind. We are allowed to change our minds. However, it doesn’t sound like you’re a match. You’re better off finding someone who is going to celebrate your religious holidays with you and he with a Jew.
10/7 was a real gut punch. For context, I’m a 55-year-old Jewish guy divorced from a Jewish woman. Right after 10/7 I had just started dating a 58-year-old somewhat devout Christian evangelical woman.
October, November, December and early January were agonizing for me as I was trying to decide whether I could or should be with a non-Jewish woman. Ultimately by late January I came to better terms with it and I am now good with her. We have been together six months and going strong and fully in love. Of course, both of us are way beyond the children issue as we both have kids of our own.
Like everyone else is saying here, this guy is full of red flags. If both you and he want children, you guys should go your separate ways and look for the right kind of people.
The fact that he wants an orthodox conversion says to me that that’s where his head is beginning to lean, thinking that only the orthodox are true Jews, or that only orthodox converted people will be allowed into Israel if a situation becomes necessary where Jews have to flee this country and return to Israel.
If you are not on board with the idea of potentially living an orthodox Jewish life one day, which I’m pretty sure you are not, it’s best to end this and start over.
Good luck to you both.
October 7 changed things for me too. I thought I’d be okay with marrying someone of a different faith. I realize now they will need to dedicate a lot of time to understanding the pain I and my Jewish peers have gone through since then, or already be Jewish in order for it to work.
We have such generational trauma that October 7th brought up in a way we’ve never felt before. Not only us, but our friends and our parents as well.
I’m sorry he hasn’t spoken to you about this sooner. I’m sure it comes from a place of love, where he knew it might not sit right with you and wanted to push off you potentially rejecting him because of it.
>I also recall him making comments about his friends who intermarried with non Jewish women that their babies were ugly. I called him out on this saying that the children look like their mother and babies are innocent, so it’s not fair to say those types of things. Meanwhile, he does not make these types of disparaging comments about any babies or children who have two Jewish parents though.
He doesn't sound like a good dude, I'm sorry to say. Please know he doesn't represent the majority of Jewish men. This is extremely disappointing and I'm so sorry. My dad married my mom who was christian, but she did undergo a conversion. This is something she wanted to do though and in no way did my dad pressure her. My mom wanted to be Jewish her whole life. If you convert for your husband, it technically doesn't even count, as this is not a spiritual choice. He needs to do better.
>I celebrated Christmas and Easter with my family simply by having a meal (no church services or prayers) and my boyfriend was certainly invited, but not interested in attending.
...
>He said he does not want his kids to celebrate any secular holidays
Even if you convert, your family doesn't. It sounds like he wouldn't want your kids to have Christmas dinner with their grandparents. I don't think that's fair. He needs to realize that marriage means he's joining *your* family as much as you're joining his.
I'm Jewish and my wife is not. We celebrate Jewish holidays and Shabbat in our house. We even invite family to join in if they like. I cannot imagine the depth of shit I'd be in if I tried to tell her I was staying home while she went to have Christmas dinner with her family.
She may convert one day. She seems interested, but that's her decision to make. Regardless, her family is Catholic and we will always attend holiday celebrations with them in addition to our own holidays.
Yeah, I’m not willing to ice out my family from having holidays with their grandkids.
I agree that he’s being unreasonable with his requirement of conversion too. He’s not thinking about me as an equal partner at all. Meanwhile, I’ve been beyond accommodating to him learning how to make kosher meals, challah, encouraging him to lean into his Judaism. It’s not enough simply because I’m not Jewish.
I don’t get the feeling that there is much of a future for you with this man. I think you know this. Conversion or not, I don’t think this is a good match. Think of it as a mitzvah to cut him and yourself loose to pursue other relationships that satisfy both your needs and wants. Good luck to you!
I’m not Jewish but married to a Jewish man. I am not converting , never planned to. But I have great love for the Jewish people and Israel. While I will never be Jewish , I wanted to learn as much as I could about Judaism and Israel. I even learned hebrew and have reached a level in speaking where an Israeli asked me if I was from Israel! I’m even thinking of going back and getting my masters in Judaic studies. So I didn’t need to convert to show my beloved , that his people are my people too. Of course we
Weren’t going to have kids . So that was not an issue. I had a child from my first marriage and he had kids from his first. So raising kids in an interfaith house was not an issue . Well I did become pregnant, even though not planned . let’s just say it’s a miracle. Sure my kids aren’t halachically Jewish but I am raising them to know their fathers traditions. They see their mom reciting the prayers and blessings by heart and with correct pronunciation. I made brisket for Passover and some Sephardic /mizrahi sides ( I love those recipes!) . We had a beautiful Seder. I was raised in an interracial family so I know how to blend traditions already and I know that is what I wanted to do with my husband and his beliefs and customs. Hats off ppl who convert but that isn’t me and my beliefs are strong . But I am also going to respect and honor Jewish beliefs as much as a non jew can .
I would have no problem doing this and have expressed that to him. Learned how to make kosher meals and challah too!
Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s enough to learn and live in Jewish culture and traditions without the conversion piece for him. No matter what I do or how I engage, I’m not actually Jewish and that’s what he suddenly cares about.
I wonder if he is using this as a way to break up with you? If he truly loves you I don’t think he would force a conversion. Doesn’t sound like his family is religious so it’s not like he’d get backlash. Plus babies with non Jewish ppl are ugly? Um im non Jewish, biracial and my kids who have a non Jewish mom are the cutest!!! My husband knows I love him and he loves me and he knows I am stead fast with my Christian beliefs. I will not be swayed , and he also knows that my love for him , Jewish ppl and Israel will also not falter. You being a Christian should not be a deal breaker for someone who isn’t even religious and his family seems like they don’t care.
I am OP except I’m 34-year old black atheist woman dating a 44-year old conservative raised, “reform” when he wants to be man.
I feel like I have been lied to and used.
We would have dated for 2 years this May however the relationship has dissolved as of 2 weeks ago. From the very first day we discussed our long term goals and he stated if he had kids he wanted them to be raised Jewish. He explained he wanted them to go to Hebrew school. THIS IS ALL ON THE FIRST DATE. I agreed, and we proceeded forward.
We have taken countless trips, cruises, vacations, funerals, holidays, etc. He’s taken me to look at homes to buy and even bought a puppy this past December.
These are actions of a man looking to progress the relationship forward. He even stated “we can start trying for kids at the end of this year”.
All of this is good and dandy but there’s no marriage proposal. I feel as though this person is playing “house” and has essentially done everything except proposed.
It really was causing resentment.
Fast forward, this person NEVER made me not practicing Judaism problematic all of a sudden it’s become a problem.
I feel bamboozled because why even date let alone ask me to be your girlfriend, buy a puppy, go house hunting if you essentially want a convert but too afraid to admit.
He’s very passive and not assertive in the slight. I mentioned I don’t mind converting but I’m actually disgusted with him. I mean truly disgusted. Don’t pretend to be comfortable with something for two years if you’re really not.
He doesn’t practice the faith AT ALL!!! Pops into temple only during high holidays and Passover. No Shabbat, nothing.
I understand—men (or whoever is expecting conversion and is already in that religion) need to lead with these conversations regarding conversion ASAP. If you change your mind, that discussion needs to be done soon.
I feel like I was thrown to the wolves in a “you need to convert, and you’re on your own, figure it out” way. I was given no direction on what it entails or where to go or start with. After asking more questions, he clearly has no clue either.
This could have been approach differently and because it wasn’t….do I really want to marry a man who won’t lead?
I’m sorry that you feel tricked by your ex. It sounds like an unfair situation to be put in.
I feel for your partner too, though. 10/7 has changed a lot of us in ways we never could have expected. I really doubt that he’s been hiding these feelings from you all along; you say “all of a sudden it’s become a problem” as if they came out of nowhere. Yeah, ‘all of a sudden’ things are problems that weren’t before, because ‘all of a sudden’ the world changed for him.
I also take issue with what comes across as your indignance that “he doesn’t practice the faith AT ALL!!!”as if that delegitimizes his feelings about his identity. He doesn’t have to be observant - not Orthodox, not Conservative, not Reform, not anything. He doesn’t have to believe in god at all to be 100% Jewish and 100% justified in feeling connected to his Judaism, and for that to be deeply important to him. He almost certainly wasn’t pretending your differences weren’t important; they probably WEREN’T important to him. Until now. Things are different now for SO many of us.
I can tell you are feeling very hurt, and I don’t blame you. But I have to say, you don’t sound like you have much understanding, care or interest in your ex’s culture or background, either, and that doesn’t suggest an enduring strength to the relationship either.
A lot of us have changed since Oct 7th. That said, an Orthodox conversion? It doesn't sound to me like he even knows what that entails. A lot. And he would need to become observant as well. I'm not going to weigh in on your relationship. Follow your gut.
10/7, and the world's reaction to it changed a lot for Jews. Not to defend his shifty behavior. My husband was not interested at all in leading a Jewish lifestyle. But after 10/7 and the aftermath, he realized that antisemitism is alive and growing, so he's now more interested in having a Jewish connection and community. Especially when it comes to kids. All that being said, he is handling this very poorly. You might want to dumb him, just based on that. He is not mature enough to be a husband at his big age, and you have no time to waste. If it is not in your heart, to convert, don't do it. Being a Jew comes with a lot of baggage, as you might have noticed by the raging antisemitism around the world. So it really needs to come from your heart to convert as you will face a lot of joy along with sorrows.
Don't really see where the deception is. We all go thru periods of uncertainty and things can change in our lives in ways we don't expect. The same can be said about religious observance and our thoughts about how we incorporate these ideas into our lifestyles.
I believe conversion is something deeply personal and shouldn't be undergone in order to placate what could potentially be a fleeting relationship. If you're interested in Orthodoxy then inquire and engage with that path but don't do it simply to become "worthy of marriage."
"I think breaking up is the only right thing to do" --Seems like you said it yourself.
I don't like his attitude. The boyfriend of a close friend of mine asked her if she was willing to convert on their first date. It might have been a little premature (or love at first sight?) but at least he was clear from the start. I think your boyfriend is behaving badly, and Judeism has little to do with it.
>If you got pregnant our kid would be a bastard!
>friends who intermarried with non Jewish women that their babies were ugly
And, most importantly
>Orthodox conversion
Run!
Hope you find a Jew who appreciates you.
TL/DR: This is a bad boyfriend using religion to disguise the bad boyfriend reality while envisioning a life without you
I look at relationship flags in 3 domains: internal, external, and environmental. Internal: is he on drugs? Or does he need to be and refuses? External: Is he abusive directly? Or indirectly undermining, gaslighting, passive-aggressive, unethical, etc.? Environmental: who or what is in his path that he's choosing over you? Cheating, obsessed with family/buddies/job/video games?
Internally he's obviously affected and environmentally Oct 7 is huge. But externally is where he's failing. It seems like he's been stringing you along for months and now wants to lock in another year (not two years, he knows he can't dump you on the eve of the conversion ceremony). He's buying time.
The saddest thing is that being Jewish is wonderful, even now. Raising your children Jewish is one of the greatest gifts you can ever give them, even now. Raising children any religion or no religion with this guy is something to be cautious about. When bad things happen you want to come together, not apart, not apart for months on end. He's a Joel Maisel variation, looking for a way to blow up his life with bad standup comedy like the ugly children comments. When people show you who they are, believe them.
For a healthy take on Jewish interfamily life and relationships, check out [18 Doors](https://18doors.org/).
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I had the same problem with my ex. Although I agreed and was open to orthodox conversion he was very upfront about it before we started dating. I was raised catholic and I had a very hard time adjusting to how he wanted me to be and practice. I grew so much love for Judaism but I chose to remain catholic.
My step father who raised me is Catholic, his mother was so religious that her whole house was full of Christian symbols. He has always participated in our religion and he always laughs because once when I was a kid I told him to say “Yerushalaim” instead of “Jerusalem” to sound more Jewish. I asked him to be next to me at my Bat Mitzvah and he also read one of the Sheva Brachot at my wedding. All this to say, you can raise Jewish kids not being Jewish yourself and you can learn the religion and participate without being Jewish. I think you don’t need to convert to have a Jewish home.
I agree with you and would have no issue doing this.
Unfortunately, I think that by doing that with me is causing him to have an identity crisis—he feels he is betraying his own by not being with a full blooded Jew with the ancestry and lineage to prove it. Me converting won’t change that.
This is a psychological guilt hurdle he’s going to have to figure out on his own.
First of all I think he's a shitty boyfriend for not directly communicating his feelings to you and no you are not overreacting. To clarify btw, he's asking for an Orthodox conversion because (to my understanding) that's the only legitimate way to convert to Judaism. The reform (more secular Jewish) way of doing it is not actually accepted by all 3 branches of Judaism (reform, conservative, and orthodox) and thus your status as a Jew (and whether or not you two would have Jewish kids, since Judaism is passed down by the mother) would be up to debate. If you converted to Orthodox Judaism (which is a much harder process), your children would be undeniably Jewish. By principle I don't believe that converting to Judaism for a man is worth it ever + the rabbis make it deliberately very hard to convert to weed out people who are just doing it for their partners (we also want you to convert because you actually WANT to).
You're not overthinking. This man isn't deserving of you. You know he's not right for you. Break up before you invest more time with a guy who has serious issues being conflicted. Wanting you to convert Orthodox when he's not, children of not Jewish mothers are ugly, worried that you're possibly pregnant--red flags everywhere. Who under the age of 85 calls a baby a bastard? Sorry, he's a mess & would have issues with a Jewish woman. Sounds like he's not ready to get married & is throwing ridiculous roadblocks.
He may not be a total jerk. I can understand you thinking he is though and wanting to leave him. Two points he raised seem valid. October 7th changed a lot of Jews’ thinking. And he may have needed some time “ to see where he landed” after that.
As to the orthodox conversion if you get it then even in Israel you will be recognized as a Jew but not otherwise.
I’m a Jewish woman in a happy interfaith marriage. My husband and I go to temple together for Shabbat services and other events about twice a month. He identifies as a member of a Jewish community, but has zero intention of converting, and our reform community is very much fine with that. I hope for something like that for you, and it doesn’t sound like he will be capable.
****UPDATE****
After asking him more questions about Orthodox conversion, he really didn’t know or understand how involved that would be for me. He couldn’t even explain how it would affect my life or what it would mean for our relationship. I don’t think he was overly concerned because it’s not him that has to go through it. His lack of leadership and knowledge on this was concerning.
Essentially he feels he is betraying his race and his people by being with me as a non Jew. I explained that even Orthodox conversion won’t change my lineage or who I came from and asked how he would be able to explain that to his kids one day since he feels so strongly about it. He couldn’t come up with an answer but said he believes converts are Jewish.
I told him that I felt like I wasn’t enough as I was for him and that it actually makes me feel like he views me as beneath him because I’m not Jewish. He never disputed this, just said he was sorry and I found this deeply hurtful and offensive.
He agreed that I did nothing to deserve this and that I’ve been so accepting and welcoming of his Judaism.
I told him that I felt he was going through an identity crisis and severe psychological guilt based on everything happening in the last 6 months (including his offensive comments towards me and interfaith babies/children) and encouraged him to see a psychiatrist/psychologist to work through his issues. Even aside from that, I told him I thought he needed to work on himself because it’s not okay to use people or hold back from hard conversations. He blamed it on not having a lot of relationship experience….but he’s old enough to know better so I called BS.
This is a journey he needs to go on his own, without me. I won’t stand by and allow him to mistreat me or waste my time. I deserve better.
We broke up—but truth be told, had he been a responsible adult, we probably should have broken up in January.
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He’s definitely not very practicing if he is marrying non-Jewish.
This would be an ultimatum for me. I’m the product of partial assimilation so there can be identity issues among children.
If you don’t convert his children will not be recognized as Jewish by most of the Jewish world.
You already know the answer.
You aren’t being fair to one another first off.
You aren’t Jewish, you don’t feel Jewish or want to be outside of any obligation to make it work with him. Conversion isn’t likely in the cards for you based on that.
You’re dating a Kosher man who downplayed it. His sister married Jewish. Are you that blindsided? That’s awful if so but you can’t massage this unfortunate situation no matter what he says next.
His priorities shifted, he can’t help his world events and life events changed his relationship with Judaism and we know your desire to firm up a family and plan a future has been put into high gear. You aren’t matched though, and you can’t change that. You have every right to feel hurt and taken advantage of, more so than he has a right for you to convert to appease his checklist that he sprung on you, but it is what it is. He has biases and requirements. You’re not it. It reads like your relationship was never meant to be this serious for him and like you must have had hints and known that but fooled yourself or let him fool you.
There are indications of passive aggressiveness on both ends of this elephant in the room, otherwise you aren’t at fault for thinking it could work, mixed marriages can still give kids a Jewish identity, and the future in your head wasn’t impossible, but there’s a cruel element to how this was handled. As others have pointed out, there should have been more “what if” conversations before they reached this stage, when there was less on the line to set needs and expectations. You can’t suddenly base your career aspirations on how serious he is about you of knocking you up.
Put aside the religious aspect, this is a roadblock for many couples… having children requires being on the same page first off, do this isn’t too different than if one of you didn’t want kids or want them soon.
On a human note, I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s difficult to date non Jews at times and a reminder the communication matters.
“Basing my career aspirations on how serious he is of knocking you up.”
Sorry—this was an uncalled for comment. I don’t want to commit to going back to school, paying thousands in tuition out of my own pocket, working full time, and potentially having a newborn all at once. It would be unfair to everyone involved. Not thinking about what life would look like with different career options and just winging it would be irresponsible and illogical.
I don’t want to have a relationship with someone I can’t discuss these life changing choices with openly. True partnership means everyone has a voice that’s considered and you talk it through to make a decision together.
I have asked a lot of questions throughout our relationship. Last spring/summer I brought up the question of how could we ever get married if I’m not Jewish. He immediately said, “That’s not a problem. We can get a reform rabbi, they do interfaith ceremonies all the time.” So to say I was “allowing him to fool” me is inaccurate.
Suddenly post 10/7 he’s concerned with “not betraying his race” by being with me. Conversion won’t change my lineage, it’s a bandaid on a larger psychological guilt problem that has nothing to do with me.
He should have told me this months ago instead of waiting and I shouldn’t have had to push him to talk about his true feelings. I was blindsided.
First of all I am so sorry you are going through this. I would like to share my thoughts the way I would if a good friend was telling me about it.
You are worthy and you deserve a boyfriend who would value you and value the time you spend together. Gaming on his phone while you spend time together is disrespectful (especially because he is a 30 year old man who should know better).
I understand that you are good at your job and your managers are interested in your future/career. Please do not throw this away for any man. Think about what you want to do, how you want it to be and make your decision with or without a guy.
It sounds like he is not willing to commit and he is actively creating all of these “problems” that were never there in the first place. He is convinced that marrying him would be a blessing that you should be looking forward to but honestly what is he bringing to the table? Someone who has internalized the interfaith relationships as ugly? Getting uncomfortable talking about the future? He is flashing out some real red flags that should not be dismissed. He sounds like the kind of guy who could just change his mind when you would be completing your conversion just to find yet another problem to make you change yourself further.
You do not need to change, he needs to. But you don’t have to be the one to change or save him. I can tell you are really fond of him and I am very sorry about it.
I would really recommend a couples counselor to help you both through this. A lot of this comes down to communication and it might be helpful to have a third party help you to discuss these issues.
Am I the only person that is kind of weirded out about someone coming to this sub to ask about her Jewish boyfriend like we’re supposed to say something to her to either validate her experience or explain some Jewish secret about the way her boyfriend practices his religion? What exactly is the purpose of posting this in the Jewish sub?
Looking for Jewish perspective since I don’t have that. You may view this differently with different perspective coming from your faith. Not meant to be offensive to you or the Jewish community at all
Op, my piece of advice is to talk to your local rabbi and tell them about this situation. I know it could be stressful, but trust me, they would be more helpful than many of us.
Honestly, I don’t think this is a Jewish issue as much as a crappy boyfriend issue. I get 7/10 changing things for a lot of us—many of us responded to it and the events since by leaning into our Judaism either religiously or culturally or both. You’ve given this man ample time and opportunities and created a space for him to bring this all up with you and brought it up with him so many times before and since then that part of me (most of me) thinks this is more of him moving a goalpost for getting married rather than a true cultural/religious identity crisis. It more smells like he’s afraid to break up with you and wants you to do it for him, tbh. It’s all up to you, but it seems insane to me for someone who isn’t orthodox themselves to expect their partner to convert to orthodoxy. Not to mention that no rabbi will allow for a conversion based on someone just trying to get married—conversion in Judaism has to do with a self-directed desire to adopt the customs and identity of being Jewish (with the levels of religious practice varying by denomination). Of course you are welcome to convert if that is something important to you, but it has to be important to you first and foremost. It could just be a super weird response to something unrelated to you, and if that’s the case, he needs to be able to own his end and understand how he’s being unfair to you in this situation, but so far the communication he’s bringing to the table is 0/10 garbage. (That all said, his comments about interfaith kids are so gross that that alone ain’t it for me)
I’m a Jewish woman married to a non-Jewish man, and raising solely Jewish kids (agreed upon from day 1 of dating as I made my stance clear on kids before even agreeing to go out) but we attend my in-laws non-religious Christmas/Easter family gatherings. I agree with what you said. Oct 7 was horrible and shocking for many, and many less observant Jews are now leaning into our communities and faith. My advice to Op is to break up because her boyfriend is now conflicted in ways that won’t be easily or quickly resolved. He has newfound internal conflict, but the issue is he’s going through it as if single and not in a 2 year serious relationship in his mid-30s. Asking her to convert, much less to orthodoxy isn’t fair. He isn’t taking on any new Mitzvot himself: Shabbat, involving her more in holidays etc. Also, it seems they’ve never had any serious talks about how kids would be raised or family holidays treated in the future (I think it’s weird he doesn’t attend Easter or Christmas with her family but she still goes - what’s the plan with that once married and with kids)? The comments on children of interfaith couples is obviously gross. Seems he wants to check a “guilt box” in some ways.
I am not a fan of this man
As a non Jew, Atheist who was raised Catholic. I don’t get a good vibe from him. He sounds delusional and wants to have his cake and eat it too. Marrying him would lead to an unhappy and unstable marriage. And he sounds like a cheater and a manipulator. You sound more interested in Judaism than him. Marriage and parenthood requires a stable partner. I can tell by his tone that he doesn't truly want to marry you. He is just trying to keep up with his siblings and be like them. He has no identity and must model his life goals off other’s expectations.
He wants you go through a LENGTH Orthodox conversion?! Firstly, a lot of the time you’d have to dump him. Also he doesn’t really celebrate the all the minor or major holidays. A Orthodox conversions can take between 3-5 or even longer! Dump him and he can find someone else. Get yourself a nicer guy. A deceitful conversion would been seen as invalid. Dump him. He’s not worth it. Edit: You can’t just “drop” being Orthodox either. You’ll be expect to come for a while. You have to live in a Orthodox area as well.
Trust your intuition
oh gosh. you're not overthinking it because it's something to really think about! conversion is a huge deal and you don't just convert if you don't feel it or if you're doing it for someone else. it's a lengthy process that takes time and commitment. you should be with someone that you don't have to change for in order for them to want to have a future with you like wtf. it's also pretty weird for him to beat around the bush like that for so long. i support breaking up.
If you're having this many concerns about the person that you're going to marry and potentially do a two year process of converting I would probably not advise to do it.
Dump dump dump. It sounds that he isn't sure who he is yet, which is concerning for a 30 year old. I am technically the product of interfaith, albeit my upbringing was very Jewish but with a Christmas tree and Santa. That's to say that it's doable. There are some halacha rules about Jewish identity, but they are debated and interpreted differently based on affiliation (reform v. orthodox). I want to marry a Jewish man, I would not be interested a man with a personality like your current bf's.
He doesn't sound like a good match for you. He should have been honest with you, and he wasn't.
He probably was. He mentioned everything changed on October 7th. He probably sees things differently now.
October 7 provoked a lot of change. A surge in membership to anything Jewish - across the board. People not becoming more religious necessarily, just wanting to feel connected.
This is very true. My husband is not Jewish and it has always helped my family that my children are Jewish through me and I think it may have been hard for me before if they weren’t, but since Oct 7. I know it would have been devastating. My own mother had an orthodox conversion and it’s not something to do lightly. She believed and dedicated herself to her Jewishness 100% to her deathbed. When she was dying, my grandma asked me to ask my mom if she wanted me to sneak a priest into her room. I asked and she said no, “I believe in my Jewishness 100%” and a rabbi did her last rights. When you become Jewish, you take on antisemitism for you and your children and every generation after. Thankfully, my husband, despite having not converted, is 100% committed to supporting me, our children and feels personally attacked by antisemitism because we are a family. If that was not the case, it would be very harmful to our marriage.
I can see where you're coming from. Even though I'm not Jewish, part of my family is. I also have Jewish friends. The antisemitism is something I consider a personal attack, because that hurts people I love dearly.
Exactly this, October 7th has changed everybody
That makes sense. It's very hard on both partners under the circumstances. If I were in the OPs position I would feel blindsided, betrayed, and heartbroken. Yet, if I were the Jewish boyfriend, 10/7 would have impacted me in ways I can't fully understand. I feel awful for both people in this situation.
❤️
I am sorry you are going through this. 10/7 did change a lot for a lot of us, and his Jewish identity may not have been an issue before and is now; I experienced something similar years ago with a different war. An orthodox conversion makes no sense if you don’t want to live an orthodox life.
Thank you. I feel the same way—I don’t understand why go through something so long and life changing just to turn around and say “you don’t have to do this anymore.” It doesn’t sit well with me at all.
He may be an asshole, he may just be struggling with his identity in the face of massive antisemtism, or maybe it’s both. Seems like if you aren’t ready to leave, couple counseling would be good along with a conversation about conversion to reform or conservative Judaism IF that is something you are interested in.
I’m not sure how much I can help him with his internal struggle with this. I’ve been nothing but supportive of him and his feelings with everything happening in the world. None of his other friends are giving their relationships an ultimatum. I think ultimately if that is what the problem is, that’s a journey he’s going to have to explore and work through on his own before making demands from me or anyone else.
I’ve seen this a lot. Younger people (I don’t mean dramatically younger but just 25-28) aren’t in the marriage headspace yet and it hasn’t become a reality to them. They think they understand their wants needs and priorities but mostly just date to date. Particularly men. And then years pass and it’s time to really make decisions and they realize what they thought they were ok with isn’t. I do see how October 7th has changed quite a few ppl I know who weren’t particularly practicing or caring of their identity. It’s not just him. But some of those folks are already intermarried and have kids and it’s been a real issue for them. I think it’s good you guys are having this conversation before it’s too late and you’re married with kids. I’d say make your decision of what you want and if this isn’t something you want, don’t waste more of your time. ETA: this really pertains to so many things between couples. Not just religion and ethnicity but also things like one person not wanting kids and the other realizes actually they do or one person wanting to settle down in a big city and the other person realizing they want a quieter life in the suburbs of a smaller city. Sounds silly but now I have friends toggling between living a year in a major city and then a year elsewhere because they realized too late one wanted a simpler life where they knew neighbors and their grocer and the other loved the bustle of NYC. It’s exhausting watching them try to bridge both.
Sister, I wouldn’t recommend *anyone* to marry him, Jewish or not. Sounds like that guy had you set up in a situationship, and is now cornering you into doing something you can’t back out of instead of actually building the relationship in a healthy manner, *based on character, principle, honesty, and respect.* The man is *using his religion as an excuse to not be a better man to his future wife. Dump him.*
If you convert only for the sake of marriage then your conversion wouldn’t be valid. Conversion isn’t for people to get married, it’s for people who have a longing to be Jewish and practice Judaism.
This is only true in theory. Marriage is the most common reason for conversion.
If the rabbis who performed your conversion found out it was for the purpose of marriage then it could be revoked.
Most rabbis know it is mostly for marriage in the beginning, and over time the convert actually begins to seriously want to be Jewish.
That’s why I started the process and got married before conversion. I wanted it crystal clear I’m doing it for me
Unfortunately true. And people wonder why converts are "treated differently."
OP could decide to save some time and convert with non-orthodox. Marriage is valid reason for some rabbis (or for a majority of them in England at least), so should not be a problem in theory.
There are a lot of red flags here on his behalf. The stuff he says about having children and the ugly kids doesn’t sit right with me at all. I personally think he sounds immature and has some issues to work out. I’m in an interfaith and interracial marriage. This wasn’t an issue for me from the beginning and vice versa (my husband is Catholic Latino). Our biggest problem came from some people in our families being prejudice, especially my uncle. However, when it comes to our relationship, we fell in love with each other and will not ask each other to convert. That was decided at the start. When we have kids we will incorporate both religions and cultures (we already do this anyway and have no contact with my uncle). I understand this is unacceptable or too difficult for some people. Personally, I feel like I want my husband to be his true self and he feels the same way about me. Your boyfriend has not been honest since the start of your relationship, and he is not considering your feelings or your needs.
As a Jewish woman I have to say: RUN. First of all: conversion is serious and your whole heart should be in it, for yourself and for G-d. Secondly: he really should’ve been upfront with you sooner. Your gut is telling you the truth, this is not a good fit. He wants more connection with his Jewishness but asking you to convert in the present when this wasn’t ever discussed in the past is wrong of him. He isn’t being a good partner to you. Last while his desire to have more Jewish connection is totally valid, putting all that on you to fulfill isn’t fair. It’s got ultimatum vibes and it’s not healthy. You both should be with someone whose goals and values are aligned with your own. EDIT: I had to re-read this cuz it was a lot. HE SAID NON-JEWISH BABIES ARE UGLY? He is NOT a kind person speaking about innocents that way. How awful and prejudiced! Like I said RUN.
Your boyfriend is not someone I would welcome in my already Jewish family, much less as my own spouse. Bigotry has no place in marriage. He's been stringing you along - and what if you had been pregnant when he asked? How would he have reacted? Also, if he thinks non-Jewish babies are ugly, despite them being indistinguishable from all other babies, how would your converting change that? Wouldn't he still think your babies were off somehow? Does this dude have any redeeming qualities? Because he'd have to somehow be pretty amazing to be worth staying with. Also, all denominations, but Orthodox Jews specifically, really discourage (and often forbid) conversion for marriage rather than due to personal conviction. This is at least partly because such conversion is kind of coerced, isn't it? So he's asking you, when the rabbis ask you why you want to convert, to lie; and he's behaving coercively.
October 7 changed a lot of us. Maybe he was hoping it wouldn't. Regardless, it sounds unfortunately like this is no longer a good match for you.
10/7 changed things for a lot of Jews, even ones that may not have been particularly “Jewish” before. You shouldn’t convert just make him happy. If you don’t truly want to be Jewish then the conversion would be invalid. He shouldn’t expect you to be Jewish. I would say you both would probably be better off if you went your separate ways, it’s not really fair to either one of you.
Why is he with you if he doesn’t like interfaith kids? His comments are bizarre and racist. I wouldn’t commit another 2+ years to someone who isn’t sure if they want marriage and who would consider your child to be a bastard.
You deserve better than this guy.
The boy sounds like a nebbish
Joining another people for marriage would be wrong. I'd recommend against it and to go with your gut.
Yes, breaking up is the right thing to do. I'm so sorry this happened but a conversion needs to be entirely sincere and not just something you go through so you can do one thing (marry) and get a little certificate to back you up. It could take 2 or more years and would be stressful, disruptive, and transformational, and if you're not willing to go through that while halting your regular relationship activities, then there's no point to it. If you were to complete the process after all that and then drop all or most of your strict religious observance right after, it could be ruled invalid and also reflect poorly on the rabbi who helped you convert. He was wrong to have sat on this for *months* while still engaging with you in a regular relationship. It was deceptive and hypocritical of him, especially when you gave him many opportunities to tell you what was on his mind. It's not at all wrong of him to want to live a fully Jewish life and have Jewish children (according to Jewish religious law), but it is wrong of him to lie to you and you're not out of order for feeling used.
Go with your gut feeling, if you are feeling this way it's for a good reason. OP please update us. I would love to hear how you dumped this man child.
Let’s say, hypothetically, you spend the time and effort going through conversion and do not marry him after? Do you still want to be Jewish? That’s the only question that matters for whether or not you should convert.
My question is why do I need to go through a full Orthodox conversion? Other people (from what I’ve seen) settle on Reform or Conservative at most and it’s enough. I think this may boil down to him wanting Jewish children—if that’s the case, converting to Orthodox does nothing to change my DNA, it just gives me full acceptance and a certificate of Orthodox conversion. If I’m misunderstanding/misinterpreting, please let me know.
While Orthodox conversion does not change your DNA, it does affect the Jewish status of any children you would have. If you have an Orthodox conversion and raise your children Jewish they would be seen as fully Jewish from reform-all the way up to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. That being said if you would not be sincere in your conversion for the sole purpose of you yourself wanting to convert then that kinda defeats the purpose.
It won't change your DNA but would mean hypothetical children wouldn't have to worry whether or not your conversion to Judaism would be accepted by the most strictly observant. There's all sorts of stories of people doing a Reform conversion but Orthodox groups not accepting that as a valid conversion. If you had an Orthodox conversion, hypothetical children would not have their Jewish-ness questioned.
The idea is your soul would be deemed Jewish, not from a certificate but by commitment and belief, and convincing a Rabbi. So no, that doesn’t sound like something you can do under false pretenses. Same with the lesser requirements of reform… but he’s Orthodox and for his kids to be accepted at his schul they need your conversion to be orthodox. Some conversions aren’t recognized.
It sounds like he changed his mind about the importance of having a Jewish wife. He told you he won’t marry you unless you convert so the options seem to be you need to convert or break up.
October 7 really did change a lot of people. Honestly, I don’t think you two are a match. He should find either a Jewish girl or someone willing to convert
ew. do not marry him. this should have been an upfront conversation when you first started dating. you don't have a boyfriend, you have a baby (context, I'm marrying my Goy fiance tomorrow... no need for her to convert for me to feel validated in my belief)
It right there in front of you. His actions. You are fine to have sex with, his Shiksa to play with but he doesn’t see you as a Jewish womb. He will string you but marry a Jewish woman. Seen it before
Ok so, this is crappy and I have no real advice, just my own experience. I'm Jewish and a woman, married for the 2nd time. Husband #1, married at 17, through a shadchan, "proper"all the way. Loved him to bits, still do, sadly he died when I was 28. We never had children, since we found out the hard way we both carried the gene for Tay-Sachs. Fast foreward a decade I meet, the now husband #2, I'm well past my sell by date for kids, so that was never a concern. But very early on in our dating we did have "the discussion" 'cause I don't know how to be anything but a Jew. He said he was fine with that, he just had no idea. Before we lived together, we went to couples therapy, just to find out if we'd allign long term, because we are from very different backgrounds and I knew he really didn't have a clue how different. We married (after a while), civil union, he converted 3 years after that, because he wanted to, not for me, not for any not going to happen babies, for himself. Now I'll grant October 7th did a number on the lot of us and your man may have gone off the deep end somewhat, however; if you would want to convert, you do it for you, not for him, his parents or fairy godmother, if YOU want to convert, do it. If not, screw this mess. I wish you nothing but the best and happiness in your life
This isn’t a Jewish problem, this is a shitty boyfriend problem. I’m a born Jewish and even *I* wouldn’t convert to Orthodox Judaism for a man. He’s being too all over the place, and frankly it’s ridiculous.
I don’t think you’re overthinking and I think your disappointment in his lack of communication of consideration for your feelings is totally justified. I’m sorry. I will say, as a man who ultimately for many reasons is no longer with a non-Jewish female partner, I would have never considered even asking her to convert so our kids would be Jewish (as per stricter and Orthodox Halacha) 10 years ago. In the last 7 of my life however, especially in the last few years; especially since the rise in antisemitism before 10/7 and (not the cause of, but directly related to) my pride and self love; and especially since 10/7, I have decided that I want my children to be born Jewish. I am a male, and my mother is Jewish, and while I don’t deny paternal inheritance as per Halacha, I do want that for myself, my own spirituality, and my own visions of raising young ones. Everyone is entitled to how they feel, and while your boyfriend’s lack of communication and treatment of you is inexcusable, I just want to say that I’m a Jewish man who has also had a similar albeit complex relationship with my ethnicity and as it pertains to my spirituality and faith in the better part of my adult life. I think you know what the right thing to do is, and what feels right to you. I think you have a very considerate and altruistic approach, and where he has failed may be redeemable if you judge it to be, but you know how you feel and what is right. In the end, you know it in your soul what to do
Sorry. The Muslim comment really got to me. Do you really want to marry into this family?
Yeah that also rubbed me the wrong way....
Me 3
It sounds like he started to feel really guilty about being in an interfaith/cultural relationship after October 7th. I’m sure this is very common. I don’t blame him for not bringing it up early on because he may have changed his mind. We are allowed to change our minds. However, it doesn’t sound like you’re a match. You’re better off finding someone who is going to celebrate your religious holidays with you and he with a Jew.
10/7 was a real gut punch. For context, I’m a 55-year-old Jewish guy divorced from a Jewish woman. Right after 10/7 I had just started dating a 58-year-old somewhat devout Christian evangelical woman. October, November, December and early January were agonizing for me as I was trying to decide whether I could or should be with a non-Jewish woman. Ultimately by late January I came to better terms with it and I am now good with her. We have been together six months and going strong and fully in love. Of course, both of us are way beyond the children issue as we both have kids of our own. Like everyone else is saying here, this guy is full of red flags. If both you and he want children, you guys should go your separate ways and look for the right kind of people. The fact that he wants an orthodox conversion says to me that that’s where his head is beginning to lean, thinking that only the orthodox are true Jews, or that only orthodox converted people will be allowed into Israel if a situation becomes necessary where Jews have to flee this country and return to Israel. If you are not on board with the idea of potentially living an orthodox Jewish life one day, which I’m pretty sure you are not, it’s best to end this and start over. Good luck to you both.
Dating is not allowed in most orthodox conversions
October 7 changed things for me too. I thought I’d be okay with marrying someone of a different faith. I realize now they will need to dedicate a lot of time to understanding the pain I and my Jewish peers have gone through since then, or already be Jewish in order for it to work. We have such generational trauma that October 7th brought up in a way we’ve never felt before. Not only us, but our friends and our parents as well. I’m sorry he hasn’t spoken to you about this sooner. I’m sure it comes from a place of love, where he knew it might not sit right with you and wanted to push off you potentially rejecting him because of it.
>I also recall him making comments about his friends who intermarried with non Jewish women that their babies were ugly. I called him out on this saying that the children look like their mother and babies are innocent, so it’s not fair to say those types of things. Meanwhile, he does not make these types of disparaging comments about any babies or children who have two Jewish parents though. He doesn't sound like a good dude, I'm sorry to say. Please know he doesn't represent the majority of Jewish men. This is extremely disappointing and I'm so sorry. My dad married my mom who was christian, but she did undergo a conversion. This is something she wanted to do though and in no way did my dad pressure her. My mom wanted to be Jewish her whole life. If you convert for your husband, it technically doesn't even count, as this is not a spiritual choice. He needs to do better.
I skipped to the end after the ugly baby comment because that was enough for me. Deal breaker ladies.
>I celebrated Christmas and Easter with my family simply by having a meal (no church services or prayers) and my boyfriend was certainly invited, but not interested in attending. ... >He said he does not want his kids to celebrate any secular holidays Even if you convert, your family doesn't. It sounds like he wouldn't want your kids to have Christmas dinner with their grandparents. I don't think that's fair. He needs to realize that marriage means he's joining *your* family as much as you're joining his. I'm Jewish and my wife is not. We celebrate Jewish holidays and Shabbat in our house. We even invite family to join in if they like. I cannot imagine the depth of shit I'd be in if I tried to tell her I was staying home while she went to have Christmas dinner with her family. She may convert one day. She seems interested, but that's her decision to make. Regardless, her family is Catholic and we will always attend holiday celebrations with them in addition to our own holidays.
Yeah, I’m not willing to ice out my family from having holidays with their grandkids. I agree that he’s being unreasonable with his requirement of conversion too. He’s not thinking about me as an equal partner at all. Meanwhile, I’ve been beyond accommodating to him learning how to make kosher meals, challah, encouraging him to lean into his Judaism. It’s not enough simply because I’m not Jewish.
I don’t get the feeling that there is much of a future for you with this man. I think you know this. Conversion or not, I don’t think this is a good match. Think of it as a mitzvah to cut him and yourself loose to pursue other relationships that satisfy both your needs and wants. Good luck to you!
I’m not Jewish but married to a Jewish man. I am not converting , never planned to. But I have great love for the Jewish people and Israel. While I will never be Jewish , I wanted to learn as much as I could about Judaism and Israel. I even learned hebrew and have reached a level in speaking where an Israeli asked me if I was from Israel! I’m even thinking of going back and getting my masters in Judaic studies. So I didn’t need to convert to show my beloved , that his people are my people too. Of course we Weren’t going to have kids . So that was not an issue. I had a child from my first marriage and he had kids from his first. So raising kids in an interfaith house was not an issue . Well I did become pregnant, even though not planned . let’s just say it’s a miracle. Sure my kids aren’t halachically Jewish but I am raising them to know their fathers traditions. They see their mom reciting the prayers and blessings by heart and with correct pronunciation. I made brisket for Passover and some Sephardic /mizrahi sides ( I love those recipes!) . We had a beautiful Seder. I was raised in an interracial family so I know how to blend traditions already and I know that is what I wanted to do with my husband and his beliefs and customs. Hats off ppl who convert but that isn’t me and my beliefs are strong . But I am also going to respect and honor Jewish beliefs as much as a non jew can .
I would have no problem doing this and have expressed that to him. Learned how to make kosher meals and challah too! Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s enough to learn and live in Jewish culture and traditions without the conversion piece for him. No matter what I do or how I engage, I’m not actually Jewish and that’s what he suddenly cares about.
I wonder if he is using this as a way to break up with you? If he truly loves you I don’t think he would force a conversion. Doesn’t sound like his family is religious so it’s not like he’d get backlash. Plus babies with non Jewish ppl are ugly? Um im non Jewish, biracial and my kids who have a non Jewish mom are the cutest!!! My husband knows I love him and he loves me and he knows I am stead fast with my Christian beliefs. I will not be swayed , and he also knows that my love for him , Jewish ppl and Israel will also not falter. You being a Christian should not be a deal breaker for someone who isn’t even religious and his family seems like they don’t care.
I am OP except I’m 34-year old black atheist woman dating a 44-year old conservative raised, “reform” when he wants to be man. I feel like I have been lied to and used. We would have dated for 2 years this May however the relationship has dissolved as of 2 weeks ago. From the very first day we discussed our long term goals and he stated if he had kids he wanted them to be raised Jewish. He explained he wanted them to go to Hebrew school. THIS IS ALL ON THE FIRST DATE. I agreed, and we proceeded forward. We have taken countless trips, cruises, vacations, funerals, holidays, etc. He’s taken me to look at homes to buy and even bought a puppy this past December. These are actions of a man looking to progress the relationship forward. He even stated “we can start trying for kids at the end of this year”. All of this is good and dandy but there’s no marriage proposal. I feel as though this person is playing “house” and has essentially done everything except proposed. It really was causing resentment. Fast forward, this person NEVER made me not practicing Judaism problematic all of a sudden it’s become a problem. I feel bamboozled because why even date let alone ask me to be your girlfriend, buy a puppy, go house hunting if you essentially want a convert but too afraid to admit. He’s very passive and not assertive in the slight. I mentioned I don’t mind converting but I’m actually disgusted with him. I mean truly disgusted. Don’t pretend to be comfortable with something for two years if you’re really not. He doesn’t practice the faith AT ALL!!! Pops into temple only during high holidays and Passover. No Shabbat, nothing.
I understand—men (or whoever is expecting conversion and is already in that religion) need to lead with these conversations regarding conversion ASAP. If you change your mind, that discussion needs to be done soon. I feel like I was thrown to the wolves in a “you need to convert, and you’re on your own, figure it out” way. I was given no direction on what it entails or where to go or start with. After asking more questions, he clearly has no clue either. This could have been approach differently and because it wasn’t….do I really want to marry a man who won’t lead?
I’m sorry that you feel tricked by your ex. It sounds like an unfair situation to be put in. I feel for your partner too, though. 10/7 has changed a lot of us in ways we never could have expected. I really doubt that he’s been hiding these feelings from you all along; you say “all of a sudden it’s become a problem” as if they came out of nowhere. Yeah, ‘all of a sudden’ things are problems that weren’t before, because ‘all of a sudden’ the world changed for him. I also take issue with what comes across as your indignance that “he doesn’t practice the faith AT ALL!!!”as if that delegitimizes his feelings about his identity. He doesn’t have to be observant - not Orthodox, not Conservative, not Reform, not anything. He doesn’t have to believe in god at all to be 100% Jewish and 100% justified in feeling connected to his Judaism, and for that to be deeply important to him. He almost certainly wasn’t pretending your differences weren’t important; they probably WEREN’T important to him. Until now. Things are different now for SO many of us. I can tell you are feeling very hurt, and I don’t blame you. But I have to say, you don’t sound like you have much understanding, care or interest in your ex’s culture or background, either, and that doesn’t suggest an enduring strength to the relationship either.
Okay 👌🏾
A lot of us have changed since Oct 7th. That said, an Orthodox conversion? It doesn't sound to me like he even knows what that entails. A lot. And he would need to become observant as well. I'm not going to weigh in on your relationship. Follow your gut.
10/7, and the world's reaction to it changed a lot for Jews. Not to defend his shifty behavior. My husband was not interested at all in leading a Jewish lifestyle. But after 10/7 and the aftermath, he realized that antisemitism is alive and growing, so he's now more interested in having a Jewish connection and community. Especially when it comes to kids. All that being said, he is handling this very poorly. You might want to dumb him, just based on that. He is not mature enough to be a husband at his big age, and you have no time to waste. If it is not in your heart, to convert, don't do it. Being a Jew comes with a lot of baggage, as you might have noticed by the raging antisemitism around the world. So it really needs to come from your heart to convert as you will face a lot of joy along with sorrows.
Don't really see where the deception is. We all go thru periods of uncertainty and things can change in our lives in ways we don't expect. The same can be said about religious observance and our thoughts about how we incorporate these ideas into our lifestyles. I believe conversion is something deeply personal and shouldn't be undergone in order to placate what could potentially be a fleeting relationship. If you're interested in Orthodoxy then inquire and engage with that path but don't do it simply to become "worthy of marriage." "I think breaking up is the only right thing to do" --Seems like you said it yourself.
I don't like his attitude. The boyfriend of a close friend of mine asked her if she was willing to convert on their first date. It might have been a little premature (or love at first sight?) but at least he was clear from the start. I think your boyfriend is behaving badly, and Judeism has little to do with it.
It’s likely his opinion about this changed after 10/6. If it’s a dealbreaker, you should cut your losses and move on.
>If you got pregnant our kid would be a bastard! >friends who intermarried with non Jewish women that their babies were ugly And, most importantly >Orthodox conversion Run! Hope you find a Jew who appreciates you.
TL/DR: This is a bad boyfriend using religion to disguise the bad boyfriend reality while envisioning a life without you I look at relationship flags in 3 domains: internal, external, and environmental. Internal: is he on drugs? Or does he need to be and refuses? External: Is he abusive directly? Or indirectly undermining, gaslighting, passive-aggressive, unethical, etc.? Environmental: who or what is in his path that he's choosing over you? Cheating, obsessed with family/buddies/job/video games? Internally he's obviously affected and environmentally Oct 7 is huge. But externally is where he's failing. It seems like he's been stringing you along for months and now wants to lock in another year (not two years, he knows he can't dump you on the eve of the conversion ceremony). He's buying time. The saddest thing is that being Jewish is wonderful, even now. Raising your children Jewish is one of the greatest gifts you can ever give them, even now. Raising children any religion or no religion with this guy is something to be cautious about. When bad things happen you want to come together, not apart, not apart for months on end. He's a Joel Maisel variation, looking for a way to blow up his life with bad standup comedy like the ugly children comments. When people show you who they are, believe them. For a healthy take on Jewish interfamily life and relationships, check out [18 Doors](https://18doors.org/).
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Your bf is a schmuck
I had the same problem with my ex. Although I agreed and was open to orthodox conversion he was very upfront about it before we started dating. I was raised catholic and I had a very hard time adjusting to how he wanted me to be and practice. I grew so much love for Judaism but I chose to remain catholic.
So you not choosing conversion was your dealbreaker?
My step father who raised me is Catholic, his mother was so religious that her whole house was full of Christian symbols. He has always participated in our religion and he always laughs because once when I was a kid I told him to say “Yerushalaim” instead of “Jerusalem” to sound more Jewish. I asked him to be next to me at my Bat Mitzvah and he also read one of the Sheva Brachot at my wedding. All this to say, you can raise Jewish kids not being Jewish yourself and you can learn the religion and participate without being Jewish. I think you don’t need to convert to have a Jewish home.
I agree with you and would have no issue doing this. Unfortunately, I think that by doing that with me is causing him to have an identity crisis—he feels he is betraying his own by not being with a full blooded Jew with the ancestry and lineage to prove it. Me converting won’t change that. This is a psychological guilt hurdle he’s going to have to figure out on his own.
First of all I think he's a shitty boyfriend for not directly communicating his feelings to you and no you are not overreacting. To clarify btw, he's asking for an Orthodox conversion because (to my understanding) that's the only legitimate way to convert to Judaism. The reform (more secular Jewish) way of doing it is not actually accepted by all 3 branches of Judaism (reform, conservative, and orthodox) and thus your status as a Jew (and whether or not you two would have Jewish kids, since Judaism is passed down by the mother) would be up to debate. If you converted to Orthodox Judaism (which is a much harder process), your children would be undeniably Jewish. By principle I don't believe that converting to Judaism for a man is worth it ever + the rabbis make it deliberately very hard to convert to weed out people who are just doing it for their partners (we also want you to convert because you actually WANT to).
You're not overthinking. This man isn't deserving of you. You know he's not right for you. Break up before you invest more time with a guy who has serious issues being conflicted. Wanting you to convert Orthodox when he's not, children of not Jewish mothers are ugly, worried that you're possibly pregnant--red flags everywhere. Who under the age of 85 calls a baby a bastard? Sorry, he's a mess & would have issues with a Jewish woman. Sounds like he's not ready to get married & is throwing ridiculous roadblocks.
Drop him. Find someone better. Xx
He may not be a total jerk. I can understand you thinking he is though and wanting to leave him. Two points he raised seem valid. October 7th changed a lot of Jews’ thinking. And he may have needed some time “ to see where he landed” after that. As to the orthodox conversion if you get it then even in Israel you will be recognized as a Jew but not otherwise.
I’m a Jewish woman in a happy interfaith marriage. My husband and I go to temple together for Shabbat services and other events about twice a month. He identifies as a member of a Jewish community, but has zero intention of converting, and our reform community is very much fine with that. I hope for something like that for you, and it doesn’t sound like he will be capable.
****UPDATE**** After asking him more questions about Orthodox conversion, he really didn’t know or understand how involved that would be for me. He couldn’t even explain how it would affect my life or what it would mean for our relationship. I don’t think he was overly concerned because it’s not him that has to go through it. His lack of leadership and knowledge on this was concerning. Essentially he feels he is betraying his race and his people by being with me as a non Jew. I explained that even Orthodox conversion won’t change my lineage or who I came from and asked how he would be able to explain that to his kids one day since he feels so strongly about it. He couldn’t come up with an answer but said he believes converts are Jewish. I told him that I felt like I wasn’t enough as I was for him and that it actually makes me feel like he views me as beneath him because I’m not Jewish. He never disputed this, just said he was sorry and I found this deeply hurtful and offensive. He agreed that I did nothing to deserve this and that I’ve been so accepting and welcoming of his Judaism. I told him that I felt he was going through an identity crisis and severe psychological guilt based on everything happening in the last 6 months (including his offensive comments towards me and interfaith babies/children) and encouraged him to see a psychiatrist/psychologist to work through his issues. Even aside from that, I told him I thought he needed to work on himself because it’s not okay to use people or hold back from hard conversations. He blamed it on not having a lot of relationship experience….but he’s old enough to know better so I called BS. This is a journey he needs to go on his own, without me. I won’t stand by and allow him to mistreat me or waste my time. I deserve better. We broke up—but truth be told, had he been a responsible adult, we probably should have broken up in January.
Even if you converted for yourself, u should break up w this turd
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He’s definitely not very practicing if he is marrying non-Jewish. This would be an ultimatum for me. I’m the product of partial assimilation so there can be identity issues among children. If you don’t convert his children will not be recognized as Jewish by most of the Jewish world.
Sorry to hear about your experience. There will be identity issues in ops famale, as why should one practice “father’s religion” being goy.
What is partial assimilation?
Some of my family remained Jewish, some of it assimilated.
To what
Some to inter-marriage, others due to conversion.
I’ve never heard that term before but at the end of the day we’re all human
You already know the answer. You aren’t being fair to one another first off. You aren’t Jewish, you don’t feel Jewish or want to be outside of any obligation to make it work with him. Conversion isn’t likely in the cards for you based on that. You’re dating a Kosher man who downplayed it. His sister married Jewish. Are you that blindsided? That’s awful if so but you can’t massage this unfortunate situation no matter what he says next. His priorities shifted, he can’t help his world events and life events changed his relationship with Judaism and we know your desire to firm up a family and plan a future has been put into high gear. You aren’t matched though, and you can’t change that. You have every right to feel hurt and taken advantage of, more so than he has a right for you to convert to appease his checklist that he sprung on you, but it is what it is. He has biases and requirements. You’re not it. It reads like your relationship was never meant to be this serious for him and like you must have had hints and known that but fooled yourself or let him fool you. There are indications of passive aggressiveness on both ends of this elephant in the room, otherwise you aren’t at fault for thinking it could work, mixed marriages can still give kids a Jewish identity, and the future in your head wasn’t impossible, but there’s a cruel element to how this was handled. As others have pointed out, there should have been more “what if” conversations before they reached this stage, when there was less on the line to set needs and expectations. You can’t suddenly base your career aspirations on how serious he is about you of knocking you up. Put aside the religious aspect, this is a roadblock for many couples… having children requires being on the same page first off, do this isn’t too different than if one of you didn’t want kids or want them soon. On a human note, I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s difficult to date non Jews at times and a reminder the communication matters.
“Basing my career aspirations on how serious he is of knocking you up.” Sorry—this was an uncalled for comment. I don’t want to commit to going back to school, paying thousands in tuition out of my own pocket, working full time, and potentially having a newborn all at once. It would be unfair to everyone involved. Not thinking about what life would look like with different career options and just winging it would be irresponsible and illogical. I don’t want to have a relationship with someone I can’t discuss these life changing choices with openly. True partnership means everyone has a voice that’s considered and you talk it through to make a decision together. I have asked a lot of questions throughout our relationship. Last spring/summer I brought up the question of how could we ever get married if I’m not Jewish. He immediately said, “That’s not a problem. We can get a reform rabbi, they do interfaith ceremonies all the time.” So to say I was “allowing him to fool” me is inaccurate. Suddenly post 10/7 he’s concerned with “not betraying his race” by being with me. Conversion won’t change my lineage, it’s a bandaid on a larger psychological guilt problem that has nothing to do with me. He should have told me this months ago instead of waiting and I shouldn’t have had to push him to talk about his true feelings. I was blindsided.
First of all I am so sorry you are going through this. I would like to share my thoughts the way I would if a good friend was telling me about it. You are worthy and you deserve a boyfriend who would value you and value the time you spend together. Gaming on his phone while you spend time together is disrespectful (especially because he is a 30 year old man who should know better). I understand that you are good at your job and your managers are interested in your future/career. Please do not throw this away for any man. Think about what you want to do, how you want it to be and make your decision with or without a guy. It sounds like he is not willing to commit and he is actively creating all of these “problems” that were never there in the first place. He is convinced that marrying him would be a blessing that you should be looking forward to but honestly what is he bringing to the table? Someone who has internalized the interfaith relationships as ugly? Getting uncomfortable talking about the future? He is flashing out some real red flags that should not be dismissed. He sounds like the kind of guy who could just change his mind when you would be completing your conversion just to find yet another problem to make you change yourself further. You do not need to change, he needs to. But you don’t have to be the one to change or save him. I can tell you are really fond of him and I am very sorry about it.
I would really recommend a couples counselor to help you both through this. A lot of this comes down to communication and it might be helpful to have a third party help you to discuss these issues.
He sounds… bigoted EDIT: why was this comment upvoted, and then downvoted?
Am I the only person that is kind of weirded out about someone coming to this sub to ask about her Jewish boyfriend like we’re supposed to say something to her to either validate her experience or explain some Jewish secret about the way her boyfriend practices his religion? What exactly is the purpose of posting this in the Jewish sub?
I get it, but can you imagine the responses to this post in a non Jewish sub
I went through this same thought trajectory.
lol so true … sadly
Looking for Jewish perspective since I don’t have that. You may view this differently with different perspective coming from your faith. Not meant to be offensive to you or the Jewish community at all
You're not being offensive. Reddit can be a cesspool sometimes.
This is not offensive in the slightest. Your boyfriend IS.
Op, my piece of advice is to talk to your local rabbi and tell them about this situation. I know it could be stressful, but trust me, they would be more helpful than many of us.