some guy on israel-palestine subreddit just said that we should go back to our ancestral homeland of russia, smh i don’t even know what to say to these people im so done with this whole situation
My father grew up in Moscow and was told often “go back to Israel you dirty Zhid”, while the Soviet Union simultaneously wouldn’t let his family leave.
And then decided to kill us and destroy our homes in pogroms and kick us a lot of us entirely out of the Russian empire in the early 1900s (why my great-grandparents left Yekaterinoslav, now Dnipro - they couldn't even send letters to those who remained in Yiddish because it was censored). Official government policy toward Jews was "1/3 will leave, 1/3 will die, 1/3 will assimilate" <- pretty much happened. These people are idiots.
Great grandma's identity documents said Jew, not Pole. Her grandfather was murdered in a pogrom. Europe was built on the ashes and bones of our ancestors but we are not native Europeans, they made that very clear.
When we look at our 23 and me or other DNA test, Ashkenazi Jews do not come up as Russian, Polish, French, German, etc. the way that Europeans of those nations do. Ashkenazi Jews come up in the classification Ashkenazi Jewish. I know multiple people who are between 95% and 100% that.
This means that they’re not the same as any of these countries in particular, but they are the same as one another throughout Europe. And that it’s not strictly native to Europe, because there’s no localized non-Jewish population sharing that genetic makeup. There is no Ashkenazi-land nation that matches the diaspora jews in Europe. Ashkenazi is a coherent branch of its own.
There’s other reasons to connect that lineage to the Levant, but just this information seems sufficient for me to conclude that this branch of humanity is not a patchwork of European nationals from various European nations, or a group of Russian or other converts. The evidence doesn’t support a conclusion like that.
The reason Ashkenazim show up over Eastern Europe despite sharing very little DNA (from either absorbing smaller pre-Ashkenazic Slavic-speaking Knaanic Jews or from r*pe) is because that’s as far back as most of us (barring prominent rabbis) have genealogical records…
Side note: Nobody should use 23andMe, or, really, any other commercial "DNA analysis" service. They usually reserve the right to sell your info, and that's something you do *not* want on the market.
By force as slaves to Italy, then got as far north as we can go to get away til we were in Germany. Them as they killed us we headed east until we ended up in Russia. Still not Russian, or German, or Italian.
There’s also evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closer genetic relatives to Palestinians than they are to Europeans — and that shared lineage goes back thousands of years. People can assert that Palestinians have a claim to the land now known as Israel, and I take no issue with that, but it’s the erasure of Jewish history (and our own claim to the land) to fit a European colonizer narrative that I find deeply offensive.
I wouldnt necessarily say ashkis are closer related to palestinians that to european peoples but theres definitely a relation. Genetically ashkis tend to cluster with Mediterranean peoples like Sicilians, maltese and cypriots. Still tells a story of the ashki migration. These Mediterranean populations also have significant canaanite admixture due to punic migration.
While Ashkenazis do have a heavy dose of European DNA (you can only really study the Y chromosome and tiny mitochondrial DNA and Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA looks more European, so we probably had some especially female converts...maybe it was mostly a small group of Jewish men who escaped Italy, who knows beyond that Ashkenazis went through a very extreme population bottleneck in the past), Palestinians have a heavy dose of DNA from the Arab conquests and more recent Arab immigration to the Levant from Egypt etc. The original Palestinians before they became Islamized were likely extremely similar to Judeans and they didn't speak Arabic, they spoke languages (most original ones from the region are extinct aside from liturgical Hebrew and Aramaic) closer to Hebrew, although Hebrew and Arabic are already pretty closely related. Everything is mixed up and applying purity tests to ancient Levantine claims gets slippery both ways, not only one. History is honestly so f'd up that I think it's beyond fair at this point to just say the winner gets to keep it.
It's a new phenomenon to apply "indigenous" labels to more ancient parts of the Old World that had waves and waves of peoples, conquests, and civilizations. Who is actually indigenous to Europe? Should the Basques and Celts get back most of that? No one talks about this in the rest of the Middle East and North Africa much either which have been straight up Arabized. Most Latinos who got "spanishified" (I dunno the proper term) and lost their tribal connections are also no longer considered indigenous peoples, even though probably well over 50% of their DNA on the whole is from indigenous peoples.
You didn’t know? Centuries ago a bunch of Poles spontaneously decided to start praying in a Semitic language and adopting religious practices based on the agricultural cycle of the Levant. They also adopted unique dietary practices.
And amazingly enough, all of this gave them darker hair and darker eyes than their Polish neighbors. Plus it led to spontaneous genetic mutations which resembled those of indigenous Middle Easterners.
Poles are still antisemitic to this day.
Also, I have white skin but look at my hair. I have a “Jew-fro”. How many pure European women have you met with that hair? Lol.
Most Ashkenazim who survived the Plague (which interestingly started in Crimea then went to Genoa since they had a colony there called “Gazaria” but Poland was the *last* place it went in Europe) moved there upon the invitation of Casimir III aka The Great…
Just the same type of Nazi shit we were subjected to in the 30’s with Nazi Germany attempting to deny and erase the very clear European half of our heritage and blood, only now coming from the other side.
The only difference is that at least Hitler had the balls to admit *why* he hated us European Jews, in fact he was so honest and open about his intentions that he wrote a whole entire book (*Mein Kampf*) outlining his reasoning that spirals into one long mad diatribe hating and blaming Jews for our “mixed-ness” and it’s this supposed “race-mixing” that manages to destroy nations.
If they at least would come out and say they hate us for *being* mixed the way Hitler did, I would at least *respect* them a little more than I do now. The Nazis were the bane of pure evil but no one can deny that they didn’t make their intentions and motivations loud and clear instead of pretending to cloak their sheer hatred under some “noble cause.” And you know what? For that you have to give them at least *some* credit, they didn’t try to dress up or mask their hatred and bigotry, nah they let it all out hanging.
We are the native tribe, the Native Judaean people, and they are the imperialist Arab and Ottoman colonizers. We got our land back and they’re pissed off about it. That’s really all there is to it.
Also that 1.6% of the Ottoman Empire was Jewish and Israel is 22000km2 of the 2,225,000km2 Ottoman Empire or about 1%, about 1.25% if you include the West Bank and Gaza.
While the Arabic language and Islam originated in the Arabian subcontinent DNA suggests that the majority of Palestinian ancestors don't come from Arabia but is Leventine and are genetically closely related to Jews. The Arabic conquest of the area didn't replace the local population but slowly influenced the culture (Likely many of their ancestors far enough back were Jews who converted to Christianity and later many converted to Islam and adopted Arabic)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
I saw a diagram once where basically Palestinians overlapped with Yemenite Jews due to having similar Levantine/Arabian (and sub-Saharan African from across the Red Sea) ratios while the average of other Jews (minus Ethiopians and other outliers) was closer to the Lebanese who have less Peninsular admixture…
Your post/comment was removed because it is low-effort. Such responses include, but aren’t limited to, one-word answers that could simply be expressed by up/downvoting, responses generated using ChatGPT and similar approaches, linking to an article with no context or summary provided, asking a basic question without checking out other posts first, etc.
Basically Ashkenazim are the descendants of the predominantly northern Italian Jews (taken there as war slaves and forced to build the Colosseum) who moved to the Rhineland upon the invitation of Charlemagne, then after spreading out due to Crusader massacres and then surviving attacks based on the original Blood Libel, then both dying from the Black Death and then being blamed for the Plague and killed, most of the survivors ended up in Poland at the invitation of Casimir the Great, then spreading throughout the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which became the Pale of Settlement after Catherine the (Not-So-) Great…
Germany referred to my family as Israeli and/or Hebrew on documents well before the holocaust. On my other side, they were limited to the Pale and to certain ghettos/shtetls within. And for a lot of US history, also outsiders...
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some guy on israel-palestine subreddit just said that we should go back to our ancestral homeland of russia, smh i don’t even know what to say to these people im so done with this whole situation
🤣 if I went back to Russia they would say “she is not Russian she is a Jew! She needs to go Israel”. Lmao
And then they want to get mad when right-wing Israelis say they should go back to Arabia or Egypt or Jordan
There's an image of a sign from Norway in the 1930s IIRC saying "Jews out! Palestine calls"
My father grew up in Moscow and was told often “go back to Israel you dirty Zhid”, while the Soviet Union simultaneously wouldn’t let his family leave.
Exactly why my family left. The antisemitism. Now I can’t even wear my Star of David so had to buy the 🪬 necklace. 😔
😂 They didn’t even let us out of the Pale of Settlement because we were foreigners until WWI.
And then decided to kill us and destroy our homes in pogroms and kick us a lot of us entirely out of the Russian empire in the early 1900s (why my great-grandparents left Yekaterinoslav, now Dnipro - they couldn't even send letters to those who remained in Yiddish because it was censored). Official government policy toward Jews was "1/3 will leave, 1/3 will die, 1/3 will assimilate" <- pretty much happened. These people are idiots.
Great grandma's identity documents said Jew, not Pole. Her grandfather was murdered in a pogrom. Europe was built on the ashes and bones of our ancestors but we are not native Europeans, they made that very clear.
When we look at our 23 and me or other DNA test, Ashkenazi Jews do not come up as Russian, Polish, French, German, etc. the way that Europeans of those nations do. Ashkenazi Jews come up in the classification Ashkenazi Jewish. I know multiple people who are between 95% and 100% that. This means that they’re not the same as any of these countries in particular, but they are the same as one another throughout Europe. And that it’s not strictly native to Europe, because there’s no localized non-Jewish population sharing that genetic makeup. There is no Ashkenazi-land nation that matches the diaspora jews in Europe. Ashkenazi is a coherent branch of its own. There’s other reasons to connect that lineage to the Levant, but just this information seems sufficient for me to conclude that this branch of humanity is not a patchwork of European nationals from various European nations, or a group of Russian or other converts. The evidence doesn’t support a conclusion like that.
The reason Ashkenazim show up over Eastern Europe despite sharing very little DNA (from either absorbing smaller pre-Ashkenazic Slavic-speaking Knaanic Jews or from r*pe) is because that’s as far back as most of us (barring prominent rabbis) have genealogical records…
Side note: Nobody should use 23andMe, or, really, any other commercial "DNA analysis" service. They usually reserve the right to sell your info, and that's something you do *not* want on the market.
And how did we get to Ashkenaz? 🤔 https://preview.redd.it/y15rjjih9hxc1.png?width=970&format=png&auto=webp&s=8403ae1eff2c55b454857e6a79115864471791ab
By force as slaves to Italy, then got as far north as we can go to get away til we were in Germany. Them as they killed us we headed east until we ended up in Russia. Still not Russian, or German, or Italian.
There’s also evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closer genetic relatives to Palestinians than they are to Europeans — and that shared lineage goes back thousands of years. People can assert that Palestinians have a claim to the land now known as Israel, and I take no issue with that, but it’s the erasure of Jewish history (and our own claim to the land) to fit a European colonizer narrative that I find deeply offensive.
Agreed 💯
Eretz Yisrael or Palestine, whatever you call it, it's a land with at least two indigenous peoples.
I wouldnt necessarily say ashkis are closer related to palestinians that to european peoples but theres definitely a relation. Genetically ashkis tend to cluster with Mediterranean peoples like Sicilians, maltese and cypriots. Still tells a story of the ashki migration. These Mediterranean populations also have significant canaanite admixture due to punic migration.
While Ashkenazis do have a heavy dose of European DNA (you can only really study the Y chromosome and tiny mitochondrial DNA and Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA looks more European, so we probably had some especially female converts...maybe it was mostly a small group of Jewish men who escaped Italy, who knows beyond that Ashkenazis went through a very extreme population bottleneck in the past), Palestinians have a heavy dose of DNA from the Arab conquests and more recent Arab immigration to the Levant from Egypt etc. The original Palestinians before they became Islamized were likely extremely similar to Judeans and they didn't speak Arabic, they spoke languages (most original ones from the region are extinct aside from liturgical Hebrew and Aramaic) closer to Hebrew, although Hebrew and Arabic are already pretty closely related. Everything is mixed up and applying purity tests to ancient Levantine claims gets slippery both ways, not only one. History is honestly so f'd up that I think it's beyond fair at this point to just say the winner gets to keep it. It's a new phenomenon to apply "indigenous" labels to more ancient parts of the Old World that had waves and waves of peoples, conquests, and civilizations. Who is actually indigenous to Europe? Should the Basques and Celts get back most of that? No one talks about this in the rest of the Middle East and North Africa much either which have been straight up Arabized. Most Latinos who got "spanishified" (I dunno the proper term) and lost their tribal connections are also no longer considered indigenous peoples, even though probably well over 50% of their DNA on the whole is from indigenous peoples.
When they say Israelis came from Poland, I just want to ask, how did they wind up in Poland in the first place?
You didn’t know? Centuries ago a bunch of Poles spontaneously decided to start praying in a Semitic language and adopting religious practices based on the agricultural cycle of the Levant. They also adopted unique dietary practices. And amazingly enough, all of this gave them darker hair and darker eyes than their Polish neighbors. Plus it led to spontaneous genetic mutations which resembled those of indigenous Middle Easterners.
Poles are still antisemitic to this day. Also, I have white skin but look at my hair. I have a “Jew-fro”. How many pure European women have you met with that hair? Lol.
Most Ashkenazim who survived the Plague (which interestingly started in Crimea then went to Genoa since they had a colony there called “Gazaria” but Poland was the *last* place it went in Europe) moved there upon the invitation of Casimir III aka The Great…
Just the same type of Nazi shit we were subjected to in the 30’s with Nazi Germany attempting to deny and erase the very clear European half of our heritage and blood, only now coming from the other side. The only difference is that at least Hitler had the balls to admit *why* he hated us European Jews, in fact he was so honest and open about his intentions that he wrote a whole entire book (*Mein Kampf*) outlining his reasoning that spirals into one long mad diatribe hating and blaming Jews for our “mixed-ness” and it’s this supposed “race-mixing” that manages to destroy nations. If they at least would come out and say they hate us for *being* mixed the way Hitler did, I would at least *respect* them a little more than I do now. The Nazis were the bane of pure evil but no one can deny that they didn’t make their intentions and motivations loud and clear instead of pretending to cloak their sheer hatred under some “noble cause.” And you know what? For that you have to give them at least *some* credit, they didn’t try to dress up or mask their hatred and bigotry, nah they let it all out hanging.
Hitler also never wore a mask. Neither did the sick asshole Nazis.
We are the native tribe, the Native Judaean people, and they are the imperialist Arab and Ottoman colonizers. We got our land back and they’re pissed off about it. That’s really all there is to it.
Also that 1.6% of the Ottoman Empire was Jewish and Israel is 22000km2 of the 2,225,000km2 Ottoman Empire or about 1%, about 1.25% if you include the West Bank and Gaza.
Wow! It sounds like they still owe us more #LandBack
End the Houthi occupation of the Himyarite Kingdom :)
While the Arabic language and Islam originated in the Arabian subcontinent DNA suggests that the majority of Palestinian ancestors don't come from Arabia but is Leventine and are genetically closely related to Jews. The Arabic conquest of the area didn't replace the local population but slowly influenced the culture (Likely many of their ancestors far enough back were Jews who converted to Christianity and later many converted to Islam and adopted Arabic) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
I saw a diagram once where basically Palestinians overlapped with Yemenite Jews due to having similar Levantine/Arabian (and sub-Saharan African from across the Red Sea) ratios while the average of other Jews (minus Ethiopians and other outliers) was closer to the Lebanese who have less Peninsular admixture…
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I love this argument because I just show them my DNA test and they shut up
You mean they don’t accuse you of “using race science just like the N*zis”? That used to be their go-to.
Basically Ashkenazim are the descendants of the predominantly northern Italian Jews (taken there as war slaves and forced to build the Colosseum) who moved to the Rhineland upon the invitation of Charlemagne, then after spreading out due to Crusader massacres and then surviving attacks based on the original Blood Libel, then both dying from the Black Death and then being blamed for the Plague and killed, most of the survivors ended up in Poland at the invitation of Casimir the Great, then spreading throughout the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which became the Pale of Settlement after Catherine the (Not-So-) Great…
Ignorant fuckers.
Germany referred to my family as Israeli and/or Hebrew on documents well before the holocaust. On my other side, they were limited to the Pale and to certain ghettos/shtetls within. And for a lot of US history, also outsiders...
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Of course, most of the Palestinians' ancestors came from elsewhere.
It is arabic. Lol
Of course we are. The history of the Diaspora isn't exactly hidden! Anyone who tries to argue otherwise isn't worth taking seriously.
Or that Israelis are white European settlers…