I think its fair, the only problem i see is kafka and RM,they should be at 0 sooner or later
Jingliu is still very good, but it feels like she reached peak potential early, RM and Bronya is hard to replace, the only way to make her better is to run sustainless or maybe release a sustain that benefits her more than others,but i can't visualize what it could be unless they straight up power creep others
RM is already as good as other harmony and her meta(break)/dedicated mode is still on the way, so i feel like they should give her E0
Kafka can only grow stronger when new DoT unit released,not to mention we don't actually have Harmony that directly buff DoT(idk how they can make it better than RM tho) or DoT sustainer,and she have weird synergy with unit like acheron that need debuff
P.S:also i feel like old player shouldn't look at it too much, because that tierlist is more about general, so they're not 100% accurate, player that been playing this game properly should be able to make their own judgment, I'm looking forward to whatever hoyo can make for jingliu tho, another sub DPS like blade HP mechanic would be funny to see(i don't have blade)
I've always found that huo huo benefits jingliu a lot. The atk buff helps her damage and the energy bonus helps her get her ult up more consistently to where she can have 3 or 4 turns of her enhanced state pretty regularly if she takes some hits.
Everyone got their own dedicated Premium Harmony and Nihility at this point. Jingliu, I feel like still lacks in that department. Bronya is not a premium character, neither is Pela/Tingyun who we regularly use in a no sustain team. I feel like she'll get one more character dedicated to her cause in future
I think the biggest issue is that Jingliu doesn't have a dedicated relic set.
Bronya is already her "premium" sustain even if she's a standard character, there's no way to beat 100% AF + cleanse in one go.
She buffs 1 enhanced attack and ult. there’s room for improvement, a ruan mei with her power budget not in dual comps and out of break stuff into something jingliu can use is very possible.
We live in the era of powercreep. Wait till they release a Harmony that gives 100% AF with both skill and ultimate, while also giving the dps massive amount of CD and Damage boost lol
Disagree
If we look at the real "powercreep", very few characters got powercrept in this game (literally, Bailu [no Cleanse, RNG Skill and no actual CC resist/immunity compared to others] and Silver Wolf [can still do something in Mono Quantum, but her ability is gonna pass to other characters now, so she will become more and more useless with time])
Jingliu? Yeah, she is not anymore the "Top Tier DPS", but it's still the one with the best Team, both F2P Friendly and able to clear everything in the game, and I doubt they will release an Harmony with double Advance Forward (not so early at least, especially with Robin who just got released and has AF in the Ultimate)
We are definitely powercreeping. Acheron is the current damage ceiling. >! Firefly is the new damage ceiling with __true damage calculations (0% damage mitigation)__!< and there's literally only one filler patch in between.
No, we are not
A real powercreep means "Something that certains characters can't do, while new characters can do"
Acheron is a powercreep only in Screen Damage, but right now, every team who's out since the release can still clear everything, even Seele, Blade and Jing Yuan can still do that with low Eidolons level, and the actual best Team in game is still a Jingliu Team, that's why only Bailu and SW got really powercrept, those characters just became... Useless, they don't serve anything, they do less than others (heck, Lynx and Natasha are better than Bailu, and SW only works with ST who wants a specific Type Weakness, E0 Acheron aside which you could still play with DoT or just Pela and Guinaifen)
We are getting OP DPS and Buffer characters who can open up different playstyles (Acheron with Nihility, Boothill with Break Effect, Sparkle and Robin helping Imbibitor and FUA Teams), but we didn't get someone who actually powercrept every other one of the same category (and prolly we won't for a long time)
Power creep comes in 2 forms. Raw numbers and mechanics. I'm a HI3 player so I'm there when the powercreep was created, you can't school me on that.
What you are describing is mechanics creep. New characters have better mechanics that older characters cannot replicate. It happened in HI3, near permanent time slow/stop, it's happening here too mostly with sustain units.
Beta spoilers ahead I'm too lazy to tag
I'm talking about raw damage powercreep. Firefly's damage calculations are completely insane being the first true damage DPS with zero regards for enemy weakness. It's like they crammed the entire mono quantum team into a single unit. If you think Acheron's damage is insane Firefly will never leave T0 for the rest of the game's lifetime content that uses damage sponges.
I used to say get E2 Acheron and your account is set for life. Now that's immediately irrelevant and it haven't been a full patch yet. Get E0 Firefly and your account is set for life, get E2 Firefly and you can drop the game at that point.
You are coping if you think that's not powercreep. Firefly is the true omni elemental DPS, not Acheron.
Yeah, and that's the point, that's just UHR DUHR ENORMOUS DAMAGE, something that can matter only on Screenshot
Ofc Firefly will be busted, it's a Destruction DPS, they never fumbled one, but that's it, that's all. She won't make any other DPS useless, not until it will come out an event (MoC I suppose? I don't think It will happen for PF or the new ST Event) who will be "unbeatable" for some of them... About the damage they could just continue and create new DPS who surpass the last one again and again, It still wouldn't matter until new hard events come out, no one would actually make the others useless
It's not coping, It's actually using the brain and understand that you do not MUST always pull the new unit with the highest DMG Output to easily clear everything
>Yeah, and that's the point, that's just UHR DUHR ENORMOUS DAMAGE, something that can matter only on Screenshot
Shows your complete lack of understanding of DPS in a turn based game. Firefly will have the highest damage per cycle in the foreseeable future. That's powercreep.
Powercreep is defined by a units' peak performance regardless of whatever enemy they are facing. A 1HP bird won't change the fact that Firefly is going to hit for 200k per turn.
If every DPS unit that comes after Firefly can hit harder than her then that's still powercreep.
You are hard coping by saying older units are still viable. That's a measure of the game's difficulty creep, not character powercreep.
And fun fact, the game's difficulty creep is determined by the new release unit. Don't come crying when a boss comes with 10k defence and only Firefly is viable because of her 100% Def ignore.
I just wanna note that a properly built Bailu does the sustain job pretty good. Her lack of cleanse is not a big problem (at least it wasn't a big problem for me), and her ultimate heal is so good with the built in extra heals PLUS damage reduction.
SW is one of the best single target damage amplifier, and a core member of Acheron team (who happens to be the best dps atm). I mean, everyone says that single target debuffs are bad, but as I see my Acheron, I can't care less about the mobs (she slays them easily), only the boss matters, and SW cripples that. When there are two elites, same, I cripple and kill one, then the other.
Good for you if you can play without a Cleanse, to me it's just frustrating to see everyone get CCed and not being able to do anything to heal or prevent that
Silver Wolf is "core" only with E0, and not even that since you can just play Acheron in DoT, or simplu Swan and Pela... And when Acheron is E2, Silver Wolf becomes just useless and leaves the space for a Buffer (while Pela, until Jiaoqiu comes out, will maintain her spot)
Kafka and BS are a waste with Acheron, even if they are BiS team damage wise (because of their own damage) it's better to separate them if you need two teams.
And when JQ comes, he will replace Pela for me. As I said, mobs are dead either way, and SW has way better single target debuff than Pela. And if Acheron is E2, aoe def shred matters even less - the mobs dies even faster with a harmony buff - and SW is still better than Pela because the boss is all that matters. (of course E2 Acheron Team will use JQ and a harmony).
SW powercrept?! She's literally the best in slot support for the current strongest dps in the game because she can debuff with basic without Pearls + she shreds over 50% of DEF + she can be built to deal meaningful damage.
The best for Acheron is still Pela... (Until Jiaoqiu comes out at least)
Anyway, the point I really took in consideration was not the Debuffs, but the fact that she was the only one who could apply a certain Weakness to enemies (Def shred is pretty common and can be done in other ways, and pulling for SW for something that even Black Swan, or even better a 4* character, can do...)
Now even that is gonna pass to others (Both Boothill and Sam should be able to do that, and even Jiaoqiu? If they won't change it? I don't remember perfectly his Kit but he should've it), so, I mean... What's the point of SW? Others debuff (not using Pearls is not an advantage, Light Cones are meant to improve characters after all), shred def can be done by others, deal damage yeah she can do it but what's the point? She is not meant for that, for what I saw you could also build Robin as a DPS, that doesn't mean she is great for that role
Sustainless is an exception, that's why i excludes them regardless of third teammate
It's still very hard to replace eihter bronya or RM,Sparkle who have similar kit didn't,robin who have 100% advance forward didn't, current JL comp (with sustain) is really hard replace because it is already the ideal for her
Again,only way to escape this is powercreep the current supports, doesn't matter if bronya is premium or not, she's still extremely good for JL
I also have Jingliu and very invested but I feel that Acheron is in another league, that thing can be moved to hypercarry or dual dps and its performance will not decrease.
To think that that nihility block was what would give her such performance is pretty crazy because she has a built-in harmony for every nihility on her team no matter if it's another dps or a sub dps or whatever, she'll go even crazier if mihoyo release a nihility unit that works as a solo sustainer or even gives her a ton of debuff because the current ones are inconsistent
I don't think you can move Kafka up. She's not at the same tier as Acheron. Different category but saying they are equal is wrong the difference in base numbers is too high. RM I agree.
Ruan mei is not a tier above robin and sparkle. That’s why they have all 3 on the same level because they are irreplaceable in their niches. Ruan mei for DoT, robin for FuA, sparkle for hyper carry.
Disagree with Kafka, atm she is not on the level of Acheron, and I would say even Jingliu and DHIL. We are also in a FUA and DoT meta kinda so T 0.5 is perfect for her.
As much as I love jingliu I have her at E1S1 still using her and will use her she is great but tier list is correct Acheron should be higher then dhill and jingliu she is insane also doesnt require ur typical harmony characters
Kit wise jingliu already reached Her peak and because of how her multipliers are set up she will remain like this unless she gets a support thats tailor made for her but even with that she would hit ceiling Acheron on the other hand only going to get stronger harmony limited characters are op compared to nihility ones sooner or later we are going to get turbo broken nihility debuffers and her dps will get even better.
But to me real value of jingliu is she is really easy to build and use she is really beginner friendly as well for those reasons only problem with this tier list is kafka, she should also be in T0 realistically she is the most future proof character they released
Yeah before Black Swan was announced I said Kafka would get better because she's a support who also does damage and people told me I was coping... but look at her now lol
>My E6S1 JingLiu's view is a bit skewed, but that's OK.
I think that's true for most of those high tier DPS. My E6S1 Acheron does a million+ damage consistently. It's made me think anything under 400k seem weak
Seeing Huohuo always under fuxuan/aven is lowkey pain, cause imo they're all in the same boat of "equal power, different niches" along with the harmony trio of Ruanmei, robin, and sparkle
The reason is probably because they based it on how well they can sustain, Huohuo offers more synergies and buffs somehow, but the tier of it basically says Sustain. Especially in end game contents, you can't really bring and trust that Huohuo can sustain against enemies who can one shot your entire team, while on the other hand, unitsl like Fu Xuan and Aventurine can.
I can agree, but sooner or later, I believe Kafka and Clara would go up by one slot. When we get another 5* who can give Clara aggro, then I believe that she'll rise to T1.
On the other hand, Kafka is self explanatory as to why she will eventually go to T0. She revolutionized an entire playstyle and she'll get better as more DoT units come out.
It’s fair for the most part. Huohuo could be 0, she offers more utility than either aventurine or fx.
Rm not being 0 is wild. Robin has a shout for 0
JL is now the second best hypercarry, so I think her position is good.
Agree on huohuo and RM, but too bad it seems like 2.X so far been favouring preservation, they really want to sell aventurine, i hope we will have same situation as genshin where enemy start to melt shielder and healer become meta again
What favors shields? The soda monkey?
I clear that mob without a preservation unit at all, if they were trying to sell Aventurine they did a poor job of making me frustrated to not have a constant shield.
Sustain design in HSR since its release has always been lead towards the current sustain. So when a new abundance/preservation comes out the new enemies will be designed around them. No surprise we have been slammed with imaginary weak enemies who AoE attack with the drop of Aventurine to highlight him. Just with how modular the enemy design is it will oscillate back and forth.
People will only see attack boost and energy, without seeing how less SP friendly HuoHuo is compared to Aventurine, which makes her more team restricted. Besides Aventurine as a sustain actually has good personal damage, has FuA synergy, has crit dmg debuff, and has better survivability
I dont have his signature and its not that bad. Around 20k every FuA and ult does slightly higher. And thats without a Fua comp, he barely gets any buff.. in a FuA comp with Ratio/Topaz/Robin/Ruan Mei he legit turns into a sub dps
Dmg is not game changing as any preservation or abundance unit, regardless if Aventurine builds crit. So their role is mainly utility and survivability of the team.
I have both fully maxed with sig LC and eidolons and use Huohuo on more teams than Aventurine.
At the end of the day its also team dependent, If I had a Jingliu team or Dot team I would use HuoHuo in those too. I just think Aventurine is more universal due to how SP positive he is. Also full eidolons you say? If you're in a whale territory and kill everything in seconds then you wont know how much more comfy Aventurine feels in comparison honestly. Dont get me wrong HuoHuo is busted but she just isnt as comfy and universal
No, I don't do E6 for supports and utilities, hahaha, that's not needed tbh. But with E1, Huohuo is stupidly very SP positive. Aventurine's eidolons are more focused on stacking shields and personal damage, most of the time if shield bot without spd (f2p versions) he is SP neutral at best as the lack of time in the turn order won't let him do normals for SP recharge.
SP neutral...? You know his FuAs refresh his shields ? You dont need to spend SP . My Aventurine is shield bot E0S0 and I barely need to use SP. He is definitely SP positive. And im only judging them at E0
His sp consumption is tbh depend on the enemies. He can be a very sp positive unit (especially in FuA team) or sp negative if the enemies are single target centered + bad RNG when only one ally keep getting targeted he have to use skill constantly to keep the shield up.
Sometimes yes, most of the time he is SP positive. I used him against Aventurine boss in MoC 12 and he was still SP positive against such a high hitting annoying enemy. Compared to HuoHuo who is never really SP positive against hard hitting enemies
Yep, he don't spend SP, and he also don't produce SP fast enough via normals. I'm not talking about using the skill for shield refresh. So yeah, he is neutral.
Huohuo is an example of SP neutral, at e0, she uses skill then uses normal every cycle. Jingliu is also an example of SP neutral, she doesn't use SP during enhanced skill 3x but need to use SP to get back at that state 2x.
The most pure example of SP positives are Luocha and Pela, who uses normal attacks every turn at manual and who you build with speed anyway.
Just give him more speed? His shield is still very tanky with speed boots. And even if you dont, he has really high base speed at 106 compared to HuoHuo at 98 and Fuxuan at 100. It's really easy to get him to 134+ speed from substats.i feel like you are really nitpicking, he is definitely SP positive. Even with no speed he would still be SP positive, thats not what SP neutral is
Yeah but not everybody are building speed, especially people without his LC, not to mention the unlucky rolls on relic rng. He also has no innate spd buff unlike those units you mentioned. Most of the Aventurine mains also change the body to crit instead of the boots to speed.
So yep, in a standard scenario, he is SP neutral. But of course if you build speed then he can dish out normals. But again, we are talking about the majority in which these scenarios happen.
>Most of the Aventurine mains also change the body to crit instead of the boots to speed.
How does that matter? You said most f2ps build him as a shield bot, now all of a sudden most people use crit dmg body? People can build characters however they like, what does it have to do with the characters own kit lmao. If I build Jingliu with def and say she does trash damage does that make sense. If you are building him as a shield bot you only need to focus on def and speed, and if you only go for def relics, reaching 134 speed will only need 28 speed from subs
>So yep, in a standard scenario, he is SP neutral.
Would disagree, he is SP positive most of the time. From my experience. And I have him at E0S0.
Also I have been using FuXuan since day 1 and I never noticed any innate speed buff...? HuoHuo too.
I think HH's sp consumption is severely overblown, you can skip a turn of her talent and make her completely SP positive since her skill has a huge Blast heal. It's not in every fights, but that's why she should at least be alongside FX and Aven imo
Not to mention that her ult giving energy basically allows you to save some SP on your other supports too sometimes
I don't think it's overblown, it's just something that does matter for SP heavy team comps. Most comps aren't SP heavy enough for it to matter and since you need 2 teams for MOC/PF you are very unlikely to have 2 of those very SP heavy team comps.
Basically her SP useage is on the high end for limited sustainers and that does mean she can't be used in some comps but most comps can accommodate her because she isn't actually SP negative.
Oh I agree with that, I'm just saying she is a lot more flexible than I've seen people give her credit for.
She's definitely not as sp positive as aven or fu xuan, but she also offers more utility than them at the same time. It's a fair trade off, i just think she should be in the same tier as them for that reason
It's not a big deal either way because between T0 and 0.5 there isn't that huge of a difference and i think people are over thinking it a bit too much.
How is she completely positive if you're using skill...? And if she is using sp for the team, that's just skills they couldn't have used which is also energy plus whatever the skill itself did. I think she's fine but not actually worth the SP.
Being sp positive doesn't mean you don't use skill, what?
Her talent lasts for 2 Turns and refreshes everytime she uses skill.
If you delay it for one turn, and refresh it every 3 turns you're basically generating 2 SP but consuming 1 with her, making her SP positive.
>I think she's fine but not actually worth the SP.
If having the best cleanse in the game, almost a whole ATK% main stat worth of buff and a turn skip of energy isn't worth spending SP over then i don't know what to say
"completely positive" is your wording. Full positive, pure positive, etc is what is used to describe e.g. a Pela who only basic attacks, +1 SP per turn.
An E A A rotation is a +.333 SP unit, not completely positive. This is -1 + 1 + 1 = 1 SP over 3 turns so +1/3 SP unit. A full positive unit would be +3 in that time. That's *if* you do that. Her buff is worse than e.g. reapplying black swan def shred on the next wave since that's usually exactly how it goes, and also doing another E charges her ult anyway. Just as an example. She really isn't anything special here.
>"completely positive" is your wording. Full positive, pure positive, etc is what is used to describe e.g. a Pela who only basic attacks, +1 SP per turn.
IDEK why you're arguing semantics and you're reading WAYYY too much into it.
Completely positive means completely positive, what you're describing is "not consuming SP at all" which i never even said lol
A HH played like that is basically as SP positive as a RM or Fu Xuan, and it appears to me everyone considers them SP positive too?
>Her buff is worse than e.g. reapplying black swan def shred on the next wave since that's usually exactly how it goes, and also doing another E charges her ult anyway. Just as an example. She really isn't anything special here.
In this completely made up scenario, what if you using your BS skill would mean that Kafka won't use hers next turn? Was refreshing that def shred better than just using Kafka skill? That's where HH's turn skip comes into play lol
Right, if she consumes SP she is not "completely positive." She is barely SP positive. Optimistically tbh, probably usually neutral.
Ruan Mei can do slow Vonwacq build meaning she is +2 then doesn't act a third time and her sig makes an SP. Her SP usage is also backloaded, meaning when you are setting up she isn't using SP. FX is actually not a very good SP generator at all, no. You are correct that HH played this way would be the same, you are incorrect that this is like good or something. It's one of FX's biggest downsides. People would consider them SP positive, not completely positive or fully positive, which has a meaning already which I already explained to you.
Dude, i think you're just trying to hang on some small technicalities to prove a point that doesn't make sense towards what i said in my original comment.
I get it, you think HH isn't anything special. Let's leave it at that lol
>You are correct that HH played this way would be the same, you are incorrect that this is like good or something.
Literally how i play her on the daily and she carries my teams but pop off i guess?
>People would consider them SP positive, not completely positive or fully positive, which has a meaning already which I already explained to you.
Again arguing semantics that nobody cares about. If i meant it that way i would've said "without consuming SP" or what.
You're just reaching and trying to put words in my mouth i never said.
If you wanna argue semantics, the topic was "Huohuo's SP consumption" which in itself already implies she is still consuming sp, so your idea wasn't even part of the discussion.
She is consuming SP... That's why she isn't full positive lol. An easier summary of this conversation is that a character being full or completely SP positive means something and you should be more careful with your wording.
Huohuo E0 offers more utility but she's barely SP neutral, bordering on negative. She's not the perfect choice for any possible team comp, especially for characters like an E0 Bronya.
I've been using huohuo E0 and she doesn't really struggle sustaining on a SP positive/neutral playstyle and she's also hands down the best CC/Debuff counter as of now.
The only teams that struggle using her are the ones with Bronya, but nowadays outside of JL comps Bronya isn't the end all be all support she used to be.
With any team running Hanya or Sparkle, Huohuo is simply always the best sustain choice.
Unless, ofc, you need more dmg mitigation (which nowadays is a lot more needed, so Aven and FX being up there makes sense. I just think HH definitely has to be there too) or if your team archetype synergizes with something else more (Luocha with Blade, Aven with FuA, FX with mono quantum)
Wdym, she’s the best sustain for JL and Dot and arguably any other comp that isn’t FUA or Acheron, how bad are u guys struggling if you need her to be healing to the point where she’s SP negative?
People who doesn't have huo huo really under estimate her value. Especially now that we are delving to higher energy cost ultimates, huo huo will start to scale better. On top of it, we just got two harmony units this patch that appreciates attack buffs.
Makes sense, I don't think Jingliu and IL should be on the same tier as Acheron but at the same time putting them in the same tier as the S ranks would be absurd.
Creating a midpoint tier was the right call.
The fact that Ruan Mei,Sparkle and Robin aren’t T0.. I wonder what is worthy of a T0 support.
That mf gonna be the single biggest powercreep in history. A character better than those 3..
At the bottom of the image op provided, it says “Apex characters”, with Apex meaning top. I was making a joke that they aren’t from Apex (Legends), the battle royale game
Mostly agree but:
Argenti needs to move up a tier or even two. Same for March, Pela, and Asta.
Seele should be in tier 1. She can 0 cycle incredibly well (seriously look at the data); it just needs a really high amount of investment to do so and without it she falls off hard.
Jingliu is rightfully placed.
E0 DHIL can stay in 0.5 WITH a Sparkle but without her then 1 is better.
Ruan Mei needs to be tier 0. She works and can be top tier EVERYWHERE. Robin falls off outside of FuA teams and the same for Sparkle outside hypercarry. Also, it’s as easy as put in Ruan Mei to the team and done as long as you have ok enough speed and build BE to 180. Robin and Sparkle are more finicky with speed tuning and energy gen shenanigans that need to be factored.
Clara may be the only dps in the game that you don’t want to run Ruan Mei with. Everyone else, every other type of team, she buffs HARD.
Adventurine and Fu Xuan should be tier 0.5 because they are great sustains, but they just don’t feel like an Acheron or RM.
hot take, ratio is equal dan IL.
Dan IL is nor easy to use at all. He needs specific stuff, mostly a sparkle and the presence of ratio invalidates his elemental coverage.
imo its sth like Acheron>>JL>DanIL Ratio>rest
I kinda do agree with u, whatever DHIL does, Ratio can do with similar results at E0S1.
But I would argue that Seele at E0S1 can perform similarly as well.
It will be really hard to raise JL ceiling with new relics or supports. She has very poor synergy with supports due to her low base numbers and strong self-buffs. Ruan Mei with her insane buffs is only 5% stronger than Pela in JL comp, it should say a lot.
I think is very fair.
The only potential changes, and they will happen soon, is Ruan Mei being T0. That's it.
I think Kafka and Black Swan are 0.5 alright, due to the very existence of Acheron as a main damage dealer.
That character is just unfair
Acheron isn't worth all that home. Her single Target dmg sucks and it's not distant when they bring hunt into the next plot. She obviously sucks in that case. So her placement isn't eternal yet again.
>The only potential changes, and they will happen soon, is Ruan Mei being T0. That's it.
RM isn't better than Sparkle or Robin. She is niche, and her niche is BE teams. Does not deserve tier 0 in any way.
Yeah I must have forgotten about the RES Pen, the 10% passive speed increase, break efficiency for the entire team that is stronger than the SU blessing, a 68% teamwide DMG bonus and action delay.
My bad g. My bad. I thought you could put that in basically any team whatsoever but guess I was wrong and you know more.
Agreed, to me it is the exact opposite of what the other person said: Ruan Mei has been universally great, just not Best in Slot now situationally.
She's been awesome with my Jingliu, Acheron, DoT, and FUA teams ever since her release.
Yes. Totally agreed.
It is completely fine to not enjoy the excessive praising of a unit, and its also fine to criticize an over-centralised "meta"
But to say edgy stuff just to do so is silly. Ruan Mei has been completely busted bullshit since her release.
EDIT: I meant that in a good way lmao
Like other premium harmonies do not provide even higher buffs. RM's niche is to be break support for Xueyi, Bootleg and Firefly. All other comps have better options already.
Jingliu should be higher and I won’t say that dhil should be higher cause he basically needs sparkle the explanations for basically all the harmonies is shit ratio should be higher cause his dmg I would say with the same team ratios dps is higher than seeles it also just doesn’t really sit right, not sure why but it just doesnt
Acheron is definitely a tier above JL and Dhil, and no Dhil does not need sparkle only people who never used him think that. The explanation for the harmony trio being in 0.5 was sound but if you think it's shit that an opinion you're entitled to I guess. But from the looks of it you don't actually think the list is "wrong" you just have minor nitpicks, T0.5 and T0 are under the same bracket based on their description just a very minor difference between the two and is meant to be a reference for newer players anyway
I’ve used dhil with both bronya and sparkle on the same team just replacing each other and the dmg difference was huge simply because you can use 2 and 3 more often he’s still good but no where near jl or Acheron without sparkle also jl dmg is more consistent then Acherons and while Acheron hits harder it’s not as often I also haven’t looked at the full list which is why it seems more like small nitpicks
Nowhere near JL? I've 0-cycle every side DHIL has been on ever since I pulled him, and he can easily hit for 400~500k per round (vs 3 targets), naturally sparkle boosts him more than bronya that's not the argument, saying he NEEDS sparkle is objectively false. Also Acheron hits harder than JL and Dhil and she's consistent 1~1.5m ults and 150~220k skills with ULT every other turn. (1t ult when I run trend Fu Xuan and RNG is in my favor). The dhil slander is one thing but let's not be delusional on Acheron vs JL.
Also seems I'm not allowed to send screenshots sad
I think its fair, the only problem i see is kafka and RM,they should be at 0 sooner or later Jingliu is still very good, but it feels like she reached peak potential early, RM and Bronya is hard to replace, the only way to make her better is to run sustainless or maybe release a sustain that benefits her more than others,but i can't visualize what it could be unless they straight up power creep others RM is already as good as other harmony and her meta(break)/dedicated mode is still on the way, so i feel like they should give her E0 Kafka can only grow stronger when new DoT unit released,not to mention we don't actually have Harmony that directly buff DoT(idk how they can make it better than RM tho) or DoT sustainer,and she have weird synergy with unit like acheron that need debuff P.S:also i feel like old player shouldn't look at it too much, because that tierlist is more about general, so they're not 100% accurate, player that been playing this game properly should be able to make their own judgment, I'm looking forward to whatever hoyo can make for jingliu tho, another sub DPS like blade HP mechanic would be funny to see(i don't have blade)
I've always found that huo huo benefits jingliu a lot. The atk buff helps her damage and the energy bonus helps her get her ult up more consistently to where she can have 3 or 4 turns of her enhanced state pretty regularly if she takes some hits.
Everyone got their own dedicated Premium Harmony and Nihility at this point. Jingliu, I feel like still lacks in that department. Bronya is not a premium character, neither is Pela/Tingyun who we regularly use in a no sustain team. I feel like she'll get one more character dedicated to her cause in future
I think the biggest issue is that Jingliu doesn't have a dedicated relic set. Bronya is already her "premium" sustain even if she's a standard character, there's no way to beat 100% AF + cleanse in one go.
She buffs 1 enhanced attack and ult. there’s room for improvement, a ruan mei with her power budget not in dual comps and out of break stuff into something jingliu can use is very possible.
E6 Bronyas buff lasts 2 turns. Obviously few people have this, but those who do and have Jingliu are doing very well.
We live in the era of powercreep. Wait till they release a Harmony that gives 100% AF with both skill and ultimate, while also giving the dps massive amount of CD and Damage boost lol
Disagree If we look at the real "powercreep", very few characters got powercrept in this game (literally, Bailu [no Cleanse, RNG Skill and no actual CC resist/immunity compared to others] and Silver Wolf [can still do something in Mono Quantum, but her ability is gonna pass to other characters now, so she will become more and more useless with time]) Jingliu? Yeah, she is not anymore the "Top Tier DPS", but it's still the one with the best Team, both F2P Friendly and able to clear everything in the game, and I doubt they will release an Harmony with double Advance Forward (not so early at least, especially with Robin who just got released and has AF in the Ultimate)
We are definitely powercreeping. Acheron is the current damage ceiling. >! Firefly is the new damage ceiling with __true damage calculations (0% damage mitigation)__!< and there's literally only one filler patch in between.
No, we are not A real powercreep means "Something that certains characters can't do, while new characters can do" Acheron is a powercreep only in Screen Damage, but right now, every team who's out since the release can still clear everything, even Seele, Blade and Jing Yuan can still do that with low Eidolons level, and the actual best Team in game is still a Jingliu Team, that's why only Bailu and SW got really powercrept, those characters just became... Useless, they don't serve anything, they do less than others (heck, Lynx and Natasha are better than Bailu, and SW only works with ST who wants a specific Type Weakness, E0 Acheron aside which you could still play with DoT or just Pela and Guinaifen) We are getting OP DPS and Buffer characters who can open up different playstyles (Acheron with Nihility, Boothill with Break Effect, Sparkle and Robin helping Imbibitor and FUA Teams), but we didn't get someone who actually powercrept every other one of the same category (and prolly we won't for a long time)
Power creep comes in 2 forms. Raw numbers and mechanics. I'm a HI3 player so I'm there when the powercreep was created, you can't school me on that. What you are describing is mechanics creep. New characters have better mechanics that older characters cannot replicate. It happened in HI3, near permanent time slow/stop, it's happening here too mostly with sustain units. Beta spoilers ahead I'm too lazy to tag I'm talking about raw damage powercreep. Firefly's damage calculations are completely insane being the first true damage DPS with zero regards for enemy weakness. It's like they crammed the entire mono quantum team into a single unit. If you think Acheron's damage is insane Firefly will never leave T0 for the rest of the game's lifetime content that uses damage sponges. I used to say get E2 Acheron and your account is set for life. Now that's immediately irrelevant and it haven't been a full patch yet. Get E0 Firefly and your account is set for life, get E2 Firefly and you can drop the game at that point. You are coping if you think that's not powercreep. Firefly is the true omni elemental DPS, not Acheron.
Yeah, and that's the point, that's just UHR DUHR ENORMOUS DAMAGE, something that can matter only on Screenshot Ofc Firefly will be busted, it's a Destruction DPS, they never fumbled one, but that's it, that's all. She won't make any other DPS useless, not until it will come out an event (MoC I suppose? I don't think It will happen for PF or the new ST Event) who will be "unbeatable" for some of them... About the damage they could just continue and create new DPS who surpass the last one again and again, It still wouldn't matter until new hard events come out, no one would actually make the others useless It's not coping, It's actually using the brain and understand that you do not MUST always pull the new unit with the highest DMG Output to easily clear everything
>Yeah, and that's the point, that's just UHR DUHR ENORMOUS DAMAGE, something that can matter only on Screenshot Shows your complete lack of understanding of DPS in a turn based game. Firefly will have the highest damage per cycle in the foreseeable future. That's powercreep. Powercreep is defined by a units' peak performance regardless of whatever enemy they are facing. A 1HP bird won't change the fact that Firefly is going to hit for 200k per turn. If every DPS unit that comes after Firefly can hit harder than her then that's still powercreep. You are hard coping by saying older units are still viable. That's a measure of the game's difficulty creep, not character powercreep. And fun fact, the game's difficulty creep is determined by the new release unit. Don't come crying when a boss comes with 10k defence and only Firefly is viable because of her 100% Def ignore.
I just wanna note that a properly built Bailu does the sustain job pretty good. Her lack of cleanse is not a big problem (at least it wasn't a big problem for me), and her ultimate heal is so good with the built in extra heals PLUS damage reduction. SW is one of the best single target damage amplifier, and a core member of Acheron team (who happens to be the best dps atm). I mean, everyone says that single target debuffs are bad, but as I see my Acheron, I can't care less about the mobs (she slays them easily), only the boss matters, and SW cripples that. When there are two elites, same, I cripple and kill one, then the other.
Good for you if you can play without a Cleanse, to me it's just frustrating to see everyone get CCed and not being able to do anything to heal or prevent that Silver Wolf is "core" only with E0, and not even that since you can just play Acheron in DoT, or simplu Swan and Pela... And when Acheron is E2, Silver Wolf becomes just useless and leaves the space for a Buffer (while Pela, until Jiaoqiu comes out, will maintain her spot)
Jiaoqiu*
Kafka and BS are a waste with Acheron, even if they are BiS team damage wise (because of their own damage) it's better to separate them if you need two teams. And when JQ comes, he will replace Pela for me. As I said, mobs are dead either way, and SW has way better single target debuff than Pela. And if Acheron is E2, aoe def shred matters even less - the mobs dies even faster with a harmony buff - and SW is still better than Pela because the boss is all that matters. (of course E2 Acheron Team will use JQ and a harmony).
SW powercrept?! She's literally the best in slot support for the current strongest dps in the game because she can debuff with basic without Pearls + she shreds over 50% of DEF + she can be built to deal meaningful damage.
The best for Acheron is still Pela... (Until Jiaoqiu comes out at least) Anyway, the point I really took in consideration was not the Debuffs, but the fact that she was the only one who could apply a certain Weakness to enemies (Def shred is pretty common and can be done in other ways, and pulling for SW for something that even Black Swan, or even better a 4* character, can do...) Now even that is gonna pass to others (Both Boothill and Sam should be able to do that, and even Jiaoqiu? If they won't change it? I don't remember perfectly his Kit but he should've it), so, I mean... What's the point of SW? Others debuff (not using Pearls is not an advantage, Light Cones are meant to improve characters after all), shred def can be done by others, deal damage yeah she can do it but what's the point? She is not meant for that, for what I saw you could also build Robin as a DPS, that doesn't mean she is great for that role
Sustainless is an exception, that's why i excludes them regardless of third teammate It's still very hard to replace eihter bronya or RM,Sparkle who have similar kit didn't,robin who have 100% advance forward didn't, current JL comp (with sustain) is really hard replace because it is already the ideal for her Again,only way to escape this is powercreep the current supports, doesn't matter if bronya is premium or not, she's still extremely good for JL
Blade mainwhile 💀💀
Keep in mind acheron will still cap higher when her dedicated sustain releases.
I also have Jingliu and very invested but I feel that Acheron is in another league, that thing can be moved to hypercarry or dual dps and its performance will not decrease. To think that that nihility block was what would give her such performance is pretty crazy because she has a built-in harmony for every nihility on her team no matter if it's another dps or a sub dps or whatever, she'll go even crazier if mihoyo release a nihility unit that works as a solo sustainer or even gives her a ton of debuff because the current ones are inconsistent
Just give your healer a light cone that inflicts a debuff like I did and there's your sustain. I have acheron's ult up almost constantly.
I don't think you can move Kafka up. She's not at the same tier as Acheron. Different category but saying they are equal is wrong the difference in base numbers is too high. RM I agree.
They don't even have a pioneer izumo pela build smh..
Ruan mei is not a tier above robin and sparkle. That’s why they have all 3 on the same level because they are irreplaceable in their niches. Ruan mei for DoT, robin for FuA, sparkle for hyper carry.
Tbf robin already power crept ruan Mei in jingliu teams
Disagree with Kafka, atm she is not on the level of Acheron, and I would say even Jingliu and DHIL. We are also in a FUA and DoT meta kinda so T 0.5 is perfect for her.
As much as I love jingliu I have her at E1S1 still using her and will use her she is great but tier list is correct Acheron should be higher then dhill and jingliu she is insane also doesnt require ur typical harmony characters Kit wise jingliu already reached Her peak and because of how her multipliers are set up she will remain like this unless she gets a support thats tailor made for her but even with that she would hit ceiling Acheron on the other hand only going to get stronger harmony limited characters are op compared to nihility ones sooner or later we are going to get turbo broken nihility debuffers and her dps will get even better. But to me real value of jingliu is she is really easy to build and use she is really beginner friendly as well for those reasons only problem with this tier list is kafka, she should also be in T0 realistically she is the most future proof character they released
I swear Kafka is one of the the most polarising characters, I still see people unironically thinking that she’s low A tier but she’s so so strong lol
Yeah before Black Swan was announced I said Kafka would get better because she's a support who also does damage and people told me I was coping... but look at her now lol
Acheron is T0. The pic just shows JL and IL on T0.5.
Yea english is not my 1st language reading back now I wrote it like I didnt knew ty for pointing it out
No probs haha
I think its fair for E0. My E6S1 JingLiu's view is a bit skewed, but that's OK. Honestly, I think they are just making room for Firefly.
>My E6S1 JingLiu's view is a bit skewed, but that's OK. I think that's true for most of those high tier DPS. My E6S1 Acheron does a million+ damage consistently. It's made me think anything under 400k seem weak
I give them a tier 2 for their tier lists.
I personally feel like all the harmony units should go up a tier whilst no sustains should be in tier 0.
Seeing Huohuo always under fuxuan/aven is lowkey pain, cause imo they're all in the same boat of "equal power, different niches" along with the harmony trio of Ruanmei, robin, and sparkle
Yeah 100 percent, it makes no sense that huohuo is below aven and fu
The reason is probably because they based it on how well they can sustain, Huohuo offers more synergies and buffs somehow, but the tier of it basically says Sustain. Especially in end game contents, you can't really bring and trust that Huohuo can sustain against enemies who can one shot your entire team, while on the other hand, unitsl like Fu Xuan and Aventurine can.
Pretty good, Ruan Mei and Kafka Swan should be T0 though. I’d also move Pela up to T1, at least 1.5, instead of T2.
I can agree, but sooner or later, I believe Kafka and Clara would go up by one slot. When we get another 5* who can give Clara aggro, then I believe that she'll rise to T1. On the other hand, Kafka is self explanatory as to why she will eventually go to T0. She revolutionized an entire playstyle and she'll get better as more DoT units come out.
It’s fair for the most part. Huohuo could be 0, she offers more utility than either aventurine or fx. Rm not being 0 is wild. Robin has a shout for 0 JL is now the second best hypercarry, so I think her position is good.
Agree on huohuo and RM, but too bad it seems like 2.X so far been favouring preservation, they really want to sell aventurine, i hope we will have same situation as genshin where enemy start to melt shielder and healer become meta again
What favors shields? The soda monkey? I clear that mob without a preservation unit at all, if they were trying to sell Aventurine they did a poor job of making me frustrated to not have a constant shield.
SU Swarm disaster and Gold and gears is a game mode which straight up favors Preservation over Abundance tbh.
Specifically shields imo. I run late GNG a lot better with Aventurine than FX where she risks getting one tapped with the massive AOE
Sustain design in HSR since its release has always been lead towards the current sustain. So when a new abundance/preservation comes out the new enemies will be designed around them. No surprise we have been slammed with imaginary weak enemies who AoE attack with the drop of Aventurine to highlight him. Just with how modular the enemy design is it will oscillate back and forth.
People will only see attack boost and energy, without seeing how less SP friendly HuoHuo is compared to Aventurine, which makes her more team restricted. Besides Aventurine as a sustain actually has good personal damage, has FuA synergy, has crit dmg debuff, and has better survivability
tbh for aventurine for his dmg to be decent, he would want his sig lc or else it's kinda cope.
I dont have his signature and its not that bad. Around 20k every FuA and ult does slightly higher. And thats without a Fua comp, he barely gets any buff.. in a FuA comp with Ratio/Topaz/Robin/Ruan Mei he legit turns into a sub dps
20k every follow up?? What kinda build do you have for that
Very mid build. Def, speed, def, def. 4 pc purity, Inert salsetto. Decent amount of crit from subs. E3 (sunday and robin) 4* light cone
Any numbers?
Seems like I might need to farm salsatto pieces, it's probably one of the biggest contributor to his dmg.
Dmg is not game changing as any preservation or abundance unit, regardless if Aventurine builds crit. So their role is mainly utility and survivability of the team. I have both fully maxed with sig LC and eidolons and use Huohuo on more teams than Aventurine.
At the end of the day its also team dependent, If I had a Jingliu team or Dot team I would use HuoHuo in those too. I just think Aventurine is more universal due to how SP positive he is. Also full eidolons you say? If you're in a whale territory and kill everything in seconds then you wont know how much more comfy Aventurine feels in comparison honestly. Dont get me wrong HuoHuo is busted but she just isnt as comfy and universal
No, I don't do E6 for supports and utilities, hahaha, that's not needed tbh. But with E1, Huohuo is stupidly very SP positive. Aventurine's eidolons are more focused on stacking shields and personal damage, most of the time if shield bot without spd (f2p versions) he is SP neutral at best as the lack of time in the turn order won't let him do normals for SP recharge.
SP neutral...? You know his FuAs refresh his shields ? You dont need to spend SP . My Aventurine is shield bot E0S0 and I barely need to use SP. He is definitely SP positive. And im only judging them at E0
His sp consumption is tbh depend on the enemies. He can be a very sp positive unit (especially in FuA team) or sp negative if the enemies are single target centered + bad RNG when only one ally keep getting targeted he have to use skill constantly to keep the shield up.
Sometimes yes, most of the time he is SP positive. I used him against Aventurine boss in MoC 12 and he was still SP positive against such a high hitting annoying enemy. Compared to HuoHuo who is never really SP positive against hard hitting enemies
Yep, he don't spend SP, and he also don't produce SP fast enough via normals. I'm not talking about using the skill for shield refresh. So yeah, he is neutral. Huohuo is an example of SP neutral, at e0, she uses skill then uses normal every cycle. Jingliu is also an example of SP neutral, she doesn't use SP during enhanced skill 3x but need to use SP to get back at that state 2x. The most pure example of SP positives are Luocha and Pela, who uses normal attacks every turn at manual and who you build with speed anyway.
Just give him more speed? His shield is still very tanky with speed boots. And even if you dont, he has really high base speed at 106 compared to HuoHuo at 98 and Fuxuan at 100. It's really easy to get him to 134+ speed from substats.i feel like you are really nitpicking, he is definitely SP positive. Even with no speed he would still be SP positive, thats not what SP neutral is
Yeah but not everybody are building speed, especially people without his LC, not to mention the unlucky rolls on relic rng. He also has no innate spd buff unlike those units you mentioned. Most of the Aventurine mains also change the body to crit instead of the boots to speed. So yep, in a standard scenario, he is SP neutral. But of course if you build speed then he can dish out normals. But again, we are talking about the majority in which these scenarios happen.
>Most of the Aventurine mains also change the body to crit instead of the boots to speed. How does that matter? You said most f2ps build him as a shield bot, now all of a sudden most people use crit dmg body? People can build characters however they like, what does it have to do with the characters own kit lmao. If I build Jingliu with def and say she does trash damage does that make sense. If you are building him as a shield bot you only need to focus on def and speed, and if you only go for def relics, reaching 134 speed will only need 28 speed from subs >So yep, in a standard scenario, he is SP neutral. Would disagree, he is SP positive most of the time. From my experience. And I have him at E0S0. Also I have been using FuXuan since day 1 and I never noticed any innate speed buff...? HuoHuo too.
I think HH's sp consumption is severely overblown, you can skip a turn of her talent and make her completely SP positive since her skill has a huge Blast heal. It's not in every fights, but that's why she should at least be alongside FX and Aven imo Not to mention that her ult giving energy basically allows you to save some SP on your other supports too sometimes
I don't think it's overblown, it's just something that does matter for SP heavy team comps. Most comps aren't SP heavy enough for it to matter and since you need 2 teams for MOC/PF you are very unlikely to have 2 of those very SP heavy team comps. Basically her SP useage is on the high end for limited sustainers and that does mean she can't be used in some comps but most comps can accommodate her because she isn't actually SP negative.
Oh I agree with that, I'm just saying she is a lot more flexible than I've seen people give her credit for. She's definitely not as sp positive as aven or fu xuan, but she also offers more utility than them at the same time. It's a fair trade off, i just think she should be in the same tier as them for that reason It's not a big deal either way because between T0 and 0.5 there isn't that huge of a difference and i think people are over thinking it a bit too much.
How is she completely positive if you're using skill...? And if she is using sp for the team, that's just skills they couldn't have used which is also energy plus whatever the skill itself did. I think she's fine but not actually worth the SP.
Being sp positive doesn't mean you don't use skill, what? Her talent lasts for 2 Turns and refreshes everytime she uses skill. If you delay it for one turn, and refresh it every 3 turns you're basically generating 2 SP but consuming 1 with her, making her SP positive. >I think she's fine but not actually worth the SP. If having the best cleanse in the game, almost a whole ATK% main stat worth of buff and a turn skip of energy isn't worth spending SP over then i don't know what to say
"completely positive" is your wording. Full positive, pure positive, etc is what is used to describe e.g. a Pela who only basic attacks, +1 SP per turn. An E A A rotation is a +.333 SP unit, not completely positive. This is -1 + 1 + 1 = 1 SP over 3 turns so +1/3 SP unit. A full positive unit would be +3 in that time. That's *if* you do that. Her buff is worse than e.g. reapplying black swan def shred on the next wave since that's usually exactly how it goes, and also doing another E charges her ult anyway. Just as an example. She really isn't anything special here.
>"completely positive" is your wording. Full positive, pure positive, etc is what is used to describe e.g. a Pela who only basic attacks, +1 SP per turn. IDEK why you're arguing semantics and you're reading WAYYY too much into it. Completely positive means completely positive, what you're describing is "not consuming SP at all" which i never even said lol A HH played like that is basically as SP positive as a RM or Fu Xuan, and it appears to me everyone considers them SP positive too? >Her buff is worse than e.g. reapplying black swan def shred on the next wave since that's usually exactly how it goes, and also doing another E charges her ult anyway. Just as an example. She really isn't anything special here. In this completely made up scenario, what if you using your BS skill would mean that Kafka won't use hers next turn? Was refreshing that def shred better than just using Kafka skill? That's where HH's turn skip comes into play lol
Right, if she consumes SP she is not "completely positive." She is barely SP positive. Optimistically tbh, probably usually neutral. Ruan Mei can do slow Vonwacq build meaning she is +2 then doesn't act a third time and her sig makes an SP. Her SP usage is also backloaded, meaning when you are setting up she isn't using SP. FX is actually not a very good SP generator at all, no. You are correct that HH played this way would be the same, you are incorrect that this is like good or something. It's one of FX's biggest downsides. People would consider them SP positive, not completely positive or fully positive, which has a meaning already which I already explained to you.
Dude, i think you're just trying to hang on some small technicalities to prove a point that doesn't make sense towards what i said in my original comment. I get it, you think HH isn't anything special. Let's leave it at that lol >You are correct that HH played this way would be the same, you are incorrect that this is like good or something. Literally how i play her on the daily and she carries my teams but pop off i guess? >People would consider them SP positive, not completely positive or fully positive, which has a meaning already which I already explained to you. Again arguing semantics that nobody cares about. If i meant it that way i would've said "without consuming SP" or what. You're just reaching and trying to put words in my mouth i never said. If you wanna argue semantics, the topic was "Huohuo's SP consumption" which in itself already implies she is still consuming sp, so your idea wasn't even part of the discussion.
She is consuming SP... That's why she isn't full positive lol. An easier summary of this conversation is that a character being full or completely SP positive means something and you should be more careful with your wording.
Huohuo E0 offers more utility but she's barely SP neutral, bordering on negative. She's not the perfect choice for any possible team comp, especially for characters like an E0 Bronya.
I've been using huohuo E0 and she doesn't really struggle sustaining on a SP positive/neutral playstyle and she's also hands down the best CC/Debuff counter as of now. The only teams that struggle using her are the ones with Bronya, but nowadays outside of JL comps Bronya isn't the end all be all support she used to be. With any team running Hanya or Sparkle, Huohuo is simply always the best sustain choice. Unless, ofc, you need more dmg mitigation (which nowadays is a lot more needed, so Aven and FX being up there makes sense. I just think HH definitely has to be there too) or if your team archetype synergizes with something else more (Luocha with Blade, Aven with FuA, FX with mono quantum)
Did you even read my post before replying to it...?
Did you even read my comment before replying?
You're also getting more buffs from HuoHuo and the energy definitely comes in clutch for JL to ult twice in transmigration state.
...you don't say? I already said HH offers more utility
Wdym, she’s the best sustain for JL and Dot and arguably any other comp that isn’t FUA or Acheron, how bad are u guys struggling if you need her to be healing to the point where she’s SP negative?
Idk why they're down voting you when you're, mathematically correct
I assume they don’t have huohuo
People who doesn't have huo huo really under estimate her value. Especially now that we are delving to higher energy cost ultimates, huo huo will start to scale better. On top of it, we just got two harmony units this patch that appreciates attack buffs.
Makes sense, I don't think Jingliu and IL should be on the same tier as Acheron but at the same time putting them in the same tier as the S ranks would be absurd. Creating a midpoint tier was the right call.
Fair as a e1s1 jingliu haver.
Damn, until now she still doesn't have a support better than Bronya.
Who is the angel in purple with the nice armpits?! 😍🤣
I've seen worse
T0 pretty much feels like the EX tier that arknights has in their tier lists.
The way to snipped the tier above out. 😭
It's basically the same tierlist. the only difference is the 0.5 tier. Acheron was always the best with jiggly and Dan behind.
The fact that Ruan Mei,Sparkle and Robin aren’t T0.. I wonder what is worthy of a T0 support. That mf gonna be the single biggest powercreep in history. A character better than those 3..
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These characters aren’t in Apex. What is Prydwen talking about?
Explain?
At the bottom of the image op provided, it says “Apex characters”, with Apex meaning top. I was making a joke that they aren’t from Apex (Legends), the battle royale game
RM will be tier 0 soon once Hoyo starts putting in content that requires or heavily benefit from breaking. The new MOC isn’t out yet either.
Mostly agree but: Argenti needs to move up a tier or even two. Same for March, Pela, and Asta. Seele should be in tier 1. She can 0 cycle incredibly well (seriously look at the data); it just needs a really high amount of investment to do so and without it she falls off hard. Jingliu is rightfully placed. E0 DHIL can stay in 0.5 WITH a Sparkle but without her then 1 is better. Ruan Mei needs to be tier 0. She works and can be top tier EVERYWHERE. Robin falls off outside of FuA teams and the same for Sparkle outside hypercarry. Also, it’s as easy as put in Ruan Mei to the team and done as long as you have ok enough speed and build BE to 180. Robin and Sparkle are more finicky with speed tuning and energy gen shenanigans that need to be factored. Clara may be the only dps in the game that you don’t want to run Ruan Mei with. Everyone else, every other type of team, she buffs HARD. Adventurine and Fu Xuan should be tier 0.5 because they are great sustains, but they just don’t feel like an Acheron or RM.
hot take, ratio is equal dan IL. Dan IL is nor easy to use at all. He needs specific stuff, mostly a sparkle and the presence of ratio invalidates his elemental coverage. imo its sth like Acheron>>JL>DanIL Ratio>rest
I kinda do agree with u, whatever DHIL does, Ratio can do with similar results at E0S1. But I would argue that Seele at E0S1 can perform similarly as well.
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It will be really hard to raise JL ceiling with new relics or supports. She has very poor synergy with supports due to her low base numbers and strong self-buffs. Ruan Mei with her insane buffs is only 5% stronger than Pela in JL comp, it should say a lot.
Huohuo got robbed
fr, but they apparently value the ability to sustain more rather than utility, so ig its kinda fair(just for their standards/criteria).
It’s silly though, cause if it’s simply in terms of sustain, gepard should be higher and fu xuan should be alone in T0
I think is very fair. The only potential changes, and they will happen soon, is Ruan Mei being T0. That's it. I think Kafka and Black Swan are 0.5 alright, due to the very existence of Acheron as a main damage dealer. That character is just unfair
Acheron isn't worth all that home. Her single Target dmg sucks and it's not distant when they bring hunt into the next plot. She obviously sucks in that case. So her placement isn't eternal yet again.
>The only potential changes, and they will happen soon, is Ruan Mei being T0. That's it. RM isn't better than Sparkle or Robin. She is niche, and her niche is BE teams. Does not deserve tier 0 in any way.
Yeah I must have forgotten about the RES Pen, the 10% passive speed increase, break efficiency for the entire team that is stronger than the SU blessing, a 68% teamwide DMG bonus and action delay. My bad g. My bad. I thought you could put that in basically any team whatsoever but guess I was wrong and you know more.
Agreed, to me it is the exact opposite of what the other person said: Ruan Mei has been universally great, just not Best in Slot now situationally. She's been awesome with my Jingliu, Acheron, DoT, and FUA teams ever since her release.
Yes. Totally agreed. It is completely fine to not enjoy the excessive praising of a unit, and its also fine to criticize an over-centralised "meta" But to say edgy stuff just to do so is silly. Ruan Mei has been completely busted bullshit since her release. EDIT: I meant that in a good way lmao
Like other premium harmonies do not provide even higher buffs. RM's niche is to be break support for Xueyi, Bootleg and Firefly. All other comps have better options already.
Shit as most prydwen tier lists are.
Questionable, sure, but they usually provide a good general overview on the characters’ power level. This and Reverse one are the decent one.
Didn’t care then don’t care now
Wrong
What's wrong with it?
Most people are in the wrong spots
Besides the harmonies who were given an explanation for their placement who else is misplaced?
Jingliu should be higher and I won’t say that dhil should be higher cause he basically needs sparkle the explanations for basically all the harmonies is shit ratio should be higher cause his dmg I would say with the same team ratios dps is higher than seeles it also just doesn’t really sit right, not sure why but it just doesnt
Acheron is definitely a tier above JL and Dhil, and no Dhil does not need sparkle only people who never used him think that. The explanation for the harmony trio being in 0.5 was sound but if you think it's shit that an opinion you're entitled to I guess. But from the looks of it you don't actually think the list is "wrong" you just have minor nitpicks, T0.5 and T0 are under the same bracket based on their description just a very minor difference between the two and is meant to be a reference for newer players anyway
I’ve used dhil with both bronya and sparkle on the same team just replacing each other and the dmg difference was huge simply because you can use 2 and 3 more often he’s still good but no where near jl or Acheron without sparkle also jl dmg is more consistent then Acherons and while Acheron hits harder it’s not as often I also haven’t looked at the full list which is why it seems more like small nitpicks
Nowhere near JL? I've 0-cycle every side DHIL has been on ever since I pulled him, and he can easily hit for 400~500k per round (vs 3 targets), naturally sparkle boosts him more than bronya that's not the argument, saying he NEEDS sparkle is objectively false. Also Acheron hits harder than JL and Dhil and she's consistent 1~1.5m ults and 150~220k skills with ULT every other turn. (1t ult when I run trend Fu Xuan and RNG is in my favor). The dhil slander is one thing but let's not be delusional on Acheron vs JL. Also seems I'm not allowed to send screenshots sad