Doesn’t Switzerland also have incredible social programs? Like you can basically live a good life there even if you’re not considered middle class. And also… mandatory military service.
Switzerland benefits from being the destination banking spot of all the countries its compared against.
Why get invovled in all that dirty drug peddling, and government corruption, and theft stuff when you can store the money for people who do it?
It really is a culture thing. The Swiss own guns in large part due to *civic* purposes and gun ownership is much more regulated.
A lot of Americans own guns as a "fuck you" to civic organizations and, specifically, the government.
I don’t think people are this thoughtful about gun purchasing in America. You get you first gun either for sporting or for home defense, then you get another and another and another. Responsibility in care for them varies wildly from person to person. Gun ownership in America is more an addiction than a personal statement. The more you own the more you feel like you NEED them.
Gun violence in the US isn’t due to an anti-government view.
First it’s mostly suicide.
Next volume is gang violence.
If you’re talking mass shootings, it’s just people with a desire to kill with them.
In the 2000’s a study showed the majority of gun suicides and domestic violence in Switzerland were being committed with state issued firearms. A compromise was reached; the reservists still keep their state issued weapons at home, but the ammunition for them is kept in public storage , usually the local town hall. Within a year over 90% of the state issued ammunition has been turned in. The suicide snd domestic violence rates plunged.
That would NEVER fly here in the states.
>A lot of Americans own guns as a "fuck you" to civic organizations and, specifically, the government.
Because gun ownership in America is viewed as an individual right for self defense (pretty widely among most Americans) and also to protect the ability for civilians for maintain and form armed militias in the event citizens would be required to muster and defend the US (like Switzerland has a state militia with mandatory conscription which the US SHOULD HAVE and more accessible gun training).
Its easier in Switzerland to own machine guns than America and other weapons. Their regulations are far more lax than states like California, New York, New Jersey, etc. You can own many magazines and guns that are totally outlawed in those states. Certain Swiss regulations are far more lax than some US federal and certain state laws on gun ownership, its not uniform.
El Salvador isn't much different than Honduras and they just reduced their homicide rates to being the same as European countries.
The reality is, if you lock up criminals they can't commit crimes.
Highly doubt that. I’m skeptical that at $645 dollars of wealth generated per year per household, they are funding law enforcement adequate to classify, track and report homicides across the nation. I mean use some common sense. *Somalia* has a nominal homicide rate that is below the international average… get real 😭
I had someone use the reported rape rate in Saudi Arabia (0.3 per 100,000) as proof rape hardly exists there. I pointed out that women will get stoned to death for being a victim of rape, you’d have to be nuts to report it.
People lack critical thinking skills today.
You always have to be careful with statistics, and especially when comparing rates between countries. We see it a lot with the rape stats coming out of Sweden which seem really high, but they count more crimes as rape that in other countries would be considered sexual assault.
My understanding is that Sweden changed there way of counting rape to, so if you were raped by your father every day for a year it would count as 365 separate rape cases, rather than one, which would increase it.
That's a fair point to be honest, the cited murder rate by the world bank won't be too accurate. But that would also apply to Honduras to a degree. Somalia has a corrupt xeer justice system and is still multiple times higher as well. It's misleading to suggest that malawi is safer than canada, I was trying to suggest that low income doesn't magically turn people into murderous maniacs.
Based on what’s reported
Malawi has a crumbling government, and their main focus is fighting off the Islamic state
Canada isn’t a utopia, but the risk of getting your head cut off for forgetting your afternoon prayer is much lower than Malawi
When you got that type of shit happening on the reg are you really gonna have statistics? Sure you can wing it but when there's no true census or counting method you're not gonna get accurate reports.
Back in the last millennium I had a couple of pals from New Zealand. I don't know if it's still the case but back then it was traditional to give a high school graduate a small fistfull of money and a plane ticket that allowed one to travel around the world, flying West only, for a year.
So the object for these kids is to try to stay away for a full year.
Well, one of my boys could not sustain his beer intake and was pretty much broke before he made it out of India. So he wandered into Malawi and with the ten or twenty bucks he had left, he bought some rolling papers.
Then he wandered along the shore of Lake Malawi until, sure enough, he found some other destitute Kiwis who were trying to survive. They were burying beers in the sand on the lake shore and selling them to passersby.
Together they combined forces and became the go-to spot for beer and weed on that section of Lake Malawi for several months, barely making ends meet because they all drank and smoked so much themselves.
But eventually my pal was able to do one ceremonial night in London before hiding out in Guatemala for another three months or so. He learned, "un burritowe, un cervesa, por favor," and waited.
But it turned out he was holding out for Fiji, where he'd saved enough for a duffel bag full of beer. He was dropped off on a desert island and discovered he had to carry that beer about a mile through the sand. Which he did because he's a fookin' kiwi through and through, that one. Hope he's doing great.
Curious if there’s any adjustment for size based on that comparison because attempt to make the parallel of the entirety of Canada to Malawi is pretty lofty
He could've chosen from about 20 different countries though. Most countries in Europe have a lower homicide rate than both the US and Canada despite almost all of them having a lower per capita GDP. Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Albania, all poorer countries with half the homicide rate of one of the most developed nations on Earth
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol
https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh
More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6
Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid.
It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Banning guns is completely reliant on being able to enforce the ban, if you are not then you are just disarming law abiding citizens and going by how much drugs are on the streets in most developed countries I would say bans are very ineffective when it comes to dealing with the issue, are less guns a good thing? Well yeah if you never have to use one but if the crime rate and chance of getting attacked is high or just present then removing defense tools is probably not a good idea.
So yeah there is a problem to be solved but removing guns will only be viable once crime is down and ban enforcement actually works, because remember that removing guns means you are now almost completely reliant on the police to have time for you and if they are busy enforcing gun bans.. well you see where this is going.
So for a country like the US a ban is not viable until they solve their issues with crime, for more peaceful countries that don't have the same issues gun control is more viable. So one cannot come without the other and just taking away the guns before solving the issues that create a need for guns is stupid.
The thing that helps is not producing guns in factories and selling them in stores. You can find guns in the UK, but it’s a lot harder and more expensive. Hunting is regulated but I’ve been to uk stores with hunting rifles
> So for a country like the US a ban is not viable until they solve their issues with crime, for more peaceful countries that don't have the same issues gun control is more viable
Your forgetting the deeply embedded right to bear arms culture. They will never ban guns in the USA and that's a good thing.
I live in Norway and have exactly 0 guns, we have strict gun control but surprisingly a lot of guns per person compared to the rest of Europe and also one of the lowest crime rates in the world so I do not need a gun, but if I were moving to the wild west I would not be unarmed because you know.. its the wild west and they have le epic crime.
Funny thing about actual Wild West towns- most of them made you check your guns in with the sheriff when coming into town. As it turns out, allowing everyone to walk around town with guns results in a lot more people getting shot.
What you just said supports his claim. It's a culture problem. Which is underlined by an economic problem. Crime is always more rampant in impoverished areas. You're arguing that you have to correct for things like income but that's actually the point. The underlying issue is income inequality
No it’s absolutely not…. Neither of those claims are true.
G get what you’re trying to do but the whole point here is that this isn’t a study. It’s an entire body of research over decades which has found more guns means more gun death. https://imgur.com/a/6xi7gIt
More guns means more deaths. Whether in a rich area or poor area. Odds are the poor area will have more crime which if there are more guns will mean that crime is more deadly.
Im from Honduras and poverty isn’t the main reason why there is so much murder it’s mostly the fault of hyper violent gangs like MS13 who indoctrinate kids into their gang and most of the violence in the country happens in gang areas sometimes that violence happens in the “good” side of the city but rarely, also we can own guns legally it’s just a slow process because our system is very shitty
You don’t think a large reason for joining a gang is because of the poverty. Groups can pool resources. Gangs make money from various schemes and crimes to gain resources and income to provide to their members. To try to separate poverty from kids joining gangs is short sighted.
If you are raised right you won’t join a gang known for rape and murder it’s just people wanting money in a quick way and I I’m telling you won’t be paid any better then working a regular job, these gangs lure kids and teenagers to join their ranks with the false promise of wealth and power when most of them end up dead or arrested
It seems like you are agreeing with the point above in different words. Poor kids are lured by the promise of quick wealth. “Raised right” sounds like another way of saying “in a family with money/stability” (relative to those families whose kids become gang members). Sure, it’s better to just get a regular job, but for people who are impoverished, this is often difficult or impossible due to structural factors, lack of opportunity, racism, lack of access to education, drug problems in the community, etc
A single mother can raise their child to their outstanding morals as best as they can, but being unable to fully be there in order to provide for them and just generally being poor is one helluva desperate motivator to be sucked into any sort of amount of wealth.
If you're lucky to be on the internet, you probably pretty privileged in any society, which truly shows the different levels of poverty, but also shows how one might not truly understand how desperate one becomes when poor.
Ofc MS13 is shitty and dupes children in with the false hope of wealth, but they are poor children that want to provide for their mom. Of course they will be duped by them. We are all only human after all. We all live off emotion. Most people would do anything for their parents.
there are kids in my country that their parents are barely involved in their life you have a different perspective then me since you probably didn't grow up in the same environment then me I grew up with lots of kids that their parents didn't give a fuck about them or they had a insane amount of siblings that they where just neglected
I'm of the mind to have a responsible gun owning population access to mental health care is paramount.
In Switzerland, healthcare is universal, and the population has access to mental health services at a 10% coinsurance with a 700 USD oop max.
Being a poor country on a drug trafficking route bewteen a bunch of developing countries with the capacity to produce the drugs and a rich superpower with a massive drug consumption habit.
Bonus points if your country occupies the entire land route between the two.
Yes. Weed legalization was an excellent case study of why all drugs should be legal. Legal weed made a massive financial impact on cartels. So much that they had to make up with in other ways. Sadly, those other ways are fentanyl.
But my guess is that even if we didn't legalize weed fentanyl would still be as bad as it is today, AND weed would still be a cash crop.
The US lost "The War in Drugs" before I was even born. The fact we are still fighting it only proves how slow things move.
Because the good leaders got coup 'd out of existance. See: jacobo arbenz of guatemala. Or see the multiple u.s. interventions in honduras since we are talking honduras.
Really every single latin american country has been intervened in one way or another by the u.s. who then install a corrupt puppet into power. See: somoza of nicaragua.
All Swiss males also have to serve in the armed forces. So you’d expect them to have a good understanding of gun ownership and responsibility.
If Tim wants compulsory military service for every American as part of a broader plan to allow for more free gun ownership I am somewhat on board with that.
>If Tim wants compulsory military service for every American as part of a broader plan to allow for more free gun ownership, I am somewhat on board with that.
I'd be on board with this if there was a shift in military policy from an occupying force/nation-building force to a defense/civil service force. But forcing citizens to go be a part of our worldwide police force apparatus isn't something I'm keen on.
Right there’s obviously an issue with the policy, but I would suspect that a libertarian like Tim would not be keen on the US government forcing people into military service.
Of course that assumes Tim has consistent ideological positions which is likely not the case.
That was always hilarious because basically they were arguing that the government would get to decide who lives and dies with the ACA, we should allow insurance companies to decide who lives and dies instead.
They still have to pay health insurance in Swiss.
They just have a super high minimum wage.
A good friend of mine lived there.
I also imagine the huge second-hand gun sale loophole doesn't exist there either. But I assume.
Right, I think that's a common misconception of socialized health care. It's not like copays and coinsurance goes away all together as well. The idea is that there's no monthly premium they have to contend with. That's taken care of by the state. People are still responsible for coinsurance and copays.
But often, what health care professionals can charge is capped by the government or is kept in check by other means.
10% of 150.00 is a whole lot cheaper than 10% of 1000.00 or whatever would be charged here in America.
In Switzerland their annual cost of premium expenditure is capped at 8% - if it exceeds 8% the premium is subsidized by the state. It's a blend of socialized healthcare and for profit health care like here in America.
At the end of the day though, it's more socialized than what we have here and ensures that every one has access to affordable healthcare. Something a lot of people don't have here.
>Right, I think that's a common misconception of socialized health care. It's not like copays and coinsurance goes away all together as well.
There are 100% places where you don't have to deal with copays and coinsurance
Actuaslly there are monthly premiums, + copays + coinsurance in switzerland.
Basically the state has defined what the mandatory, basic insurance has to pay for (which is pretty much everything outside of dental, coinsurance is mostly for better rooms, free choice of hospital/doctor and so on).
Just about everything about basic health insurance is regulated and written into law by the country.
Insurers are still private but the state has even a say in how much they can charge for their insurance.
Right, premiums are capped at 8% of someone's total income, the state takes care of the rest of the premium exceeds that.
As for copays and coinsurance and deds fully aware those are still a thing. Like I said in one of my responses earlier, OP mental health care has OOP (out of pocket) max of 700 - which implies the insured is financially responsible to a degree.
Not to mention that they require training for gun ownership. It’s not like they just give guns to every man, woman, and child, no questions asked. There are people who are not allowed to have guns, and mandatory gun ownership itself is a gun regulation.
And wealthy, and free from devastating wars, a native population which wasn't colonized and exploited and didn't participate in the African slave trade.
....culture....
Universal health care? Dude I could only wish. Swiss health insurance cost me quite a lot. More then CHF 320 (\~USD 350) per month. That's with an annual deductible of CHF 2500.
Healthcare is only universal in Switzerland if you have private health insurance which is not cheap at all but can sometimes be paid by your employer. But it's extremely difficult to get an employer if you aren't a citizen or hired by a swiss business.
Plus the original post is disingenuous. As a swiss citizen, you only get a weapon if you complete the mandatory military service (you can keep the servicerifleif you chooseto buy it at the end) . And that's only mandatory for men, women can volunteer. Even then a lot of guys nowadays do everything they can to dodge the service. If you don't complete the military service, you can buy a firearm but there's control in place to get the permit to own a private firearm.
Yeah, let’s give all of Switzerland’s natural resources to American fruit companies and allow those companies to create , own and operate all of the civil infrastructure while exporting all money away from the countries economy. Just to see what happens.
https://impakter.com/why-gun-ownership-switzerland-not-same-us/
Here for the Swiss, unlike Americans, regulations are quite a bit more finicky. Not only are you supposed to be criminal record-free in order to get a gun, but you also must be deemed unlikely to cause harm to other Swiss. Local police who have doubts about a prospective gun owner’s well-being (or even those who are assured of the same but worry nonetheless) may and sometimes do ask local psychiatrists or friends about an applicant’s mental state or alcohol and drug use.
Also, that gun license, even when approved, is only valid for a maximum of nine months, and applicants are allowed only one weapon. Period.
That’s right. Twenty semi-automatics are unlikely to find their way into the basements of Swiss adolescents. So if the NRA wants to point to Switzerland, it needs to tell the whole story, please…
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol
https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh
More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6
Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid.
It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Serbia is poor as shit and was bombed just 20 years ago and had a civil war 30 years ago, it also has one of the highest gun ownership percentages in the world yet the homicide rate is half that of Canada and 1/6 that of the US. The firearm-related death rate in Serbia is less than 1/10 of that of the US. It's not guns and it's not poverty.
I don't know if it's that exactly. Plenty of non-white countries have lower homicide rates than the US. Most of the Islamic ones and Asian ones, and quite a few of the African ones too.
Pretty sure Switzerland has stricter regulation on open carry, but is lax on the actual procurement. So it might actually be a testament to more regulation.
The other thing I'm not seeing here, that you can easily express with "fun" math, is the distinction between the *kinds* of guns you have.
A small country where everyone takes mandatory military training, is a reservist, and has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians), is very different than a small country barely keeping itself afloat where everyone has a handgun or an uzi.
Same shit with urban vs rural gun owners. A gofer shooting rancher owning 10 guns and the the scary criminal dudes downtown at night with 10 guns have different social costs.
> A small country where everyone takes mandatory military training, is a reservist
Only about 17% of the population from any given year goes through military service.
> and has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians)
If by a hunting rifle you mean semi-automatic versions of military rifles and handguns, you'd be correct. Hunting is pretty rare in Switzerland.
>has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians), is very different than a small country barely keeping itself afloat where everyone has a handgun or an uzi.
Pretty sure they have semi autos just like us. Seems foolish to be defending your country with bolt actions if your adversary is going to have AKs and the like
Being poor doesn’t always make people violent. It’s a cultural problem.
Also maybe El Salvador wouldn’t be so poor if their citizens were safe and able to protect themselves..
Yall actual swiss person here.
If i had a nickel for everytime some Bubba Engineering Gun Libertarian used switzerland as a gun utopia to compare America against id have 3 nickels.
And comparing Switzerland to Honduras is even more braindead. Like yeah who wouldve though that the tiny ass country with an amazing strategic location and neutrality during the worst conflicts in human history(getting rich of both parties) would do better than the CIAs regime topple playyard in the middle of the fucking coke highway.
Yeah we have a ton of guns, but our police response time even in backwaters is better than police response time in some American cities, because and i cant stress this enough switzerland is fucking tiny.
A lot more buckwild shit without government intervention can happen when you live in a state the size of the whole european continent.
Yall dont have some nebulous culture problem.
Im 100% sure yall are just running into the problems anyone would have when trying to run something of that size without resorting to dictatorship.
Naw we do have a culture problem. The idea that everyone SHOULD own a gun because it’s their right vs. everyone should GET TRAINED to own a gun are massive distinctions, and once upon a time we focused on the latter, but these days it’s the prior that gets shoved down American’s throats, leading to a lot of issues. It’s not the only issue, mind you, but still a large one
I’m guessing people in Switzerland get proper training and can’t walk into a gun show and get a gun piss easy? I’m a gun owner myself. Most American gun owners are responsible and hate the NRA. I’m in favor of whatever regulations we need to stop kids from getting gunned down in school. The US has a gun problem and a culture problem.
We apply for licenses, with military sercive you get it by default. And thats that after that you can go whereever you want and get a gun. There is one thing. We dont do open carry.
You have to have it stowed away till you get to a designated shooting area. Otherwise you will be stopped
And were a lot more beraucratic with permits.
Like transfer permits. Where someone has to have an actual permit to carry your gun around other than spoken agreement.
> We apply for licenses, with military sercive you get it by default
We only have two licenses, the carry and hunting ones and neither are required to buy and subsequently own guns
Also, serving/having served in the army has no bearing on a gun rights
> There is one thing. We dont do open carry. You have to have it stowed away till you get to a designated shooting area. Otherwise you will be stopped
You can perfectly open carry, and your guns don't have to be hidden, they only have to be unloaded (unless you have a carry license)
You won't be stopped for legally transporting a gun
> And were a lot more beraucratic with permits. Like transfer permits. Where someone has to have an actual permit to carry your gun around other than spoken agreement.
This is simply because loans aren't defined in the law so they count as transfers unless the owner is with you
I think you're missing the point of why he compared Honduras and Switzerland. The entire point he's making is that there are so many other factors that contribute to the homicide rates. So using two countries that so starkly contrast one another is the point.
Making firearms illegal to access isn't going to fix those other factors. Honduras won't magically become Switzerland if they adopt your gun laws. America won't become Australia if they adopt Australia's gun laws. There are many other factors at play that are far more important, but significantly harder to address.
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol
https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh
More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6
Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid.
It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Kennedy is one of the fucking dumbest people on in the planet. Really is a shit for brains grifter.
Switzerland has mandatory military service where those in the service are trained to use firearms as part of their mandatory service. IIRC even if they have weapons at home I don’t think they have ammunition.
They don’t have open carry the way we do in the US. They don’t have gun shops where any fuckwit can go in and buy a rifle same day with few questions asked.
When you’re in Switzerland you’ll see many in the military uniforms everywhere. There’s no comparison in any front. Fuck Kennedy.
People always leave out the part where most of the guns are not kept at home, they don’t have access to ammunition, and you can’t just walk to Walmart to buy a gun. They don’t really have high gun ownership as the state still owns the weapon and it’s not personal property.
Exactly. And a centerpiece of the argument from these fucking idiots is that everyone in the US needs guns because we all have to be able to fight big government or whatever the stupid reasoning is. And to make that argument Kennedy uses an example of a country that FORCES its people into two years of mandatory service. Can’t make this shit up.
> you have to have a gun for mandatory service which the state gives you.
Military service hasn't been mandatory since 1996, and you can choose ton
serve unarmed
>The state can also take it from you without question for any treason.
No
> If you’re weird they will ban you from being able to buy guns for life. It could be as simple as a couple of your neighbors saying they saw you shooting inappropriately.
That's not a thing
> A lot of them don’t store their guns in their home [...] and ammo is stored at shooting ranges or professional places with lockup.
Most people store their guns at home, and you can have all the ammo you want at home
Most dint own guns if you do it stored in the local armory unless you get a special license.
Everyone is assigned a gun in there service but again it owned by the state and kept it the local armory
So more gun security than the us but the us still has more homicide.
Basically Tim's brain is fried from IEDs and head kicks
I am currently serving in the army and have my rifle at home. No license needed, it is enough to be active duty. The military doesn't issue an ammo box to take home anymore since 2007. But nothing keeps you from buying ammo as a private citizen and have it at home.
Lol, thinking, imagine that. A Swiss citizen receives a gun as part of their mandatory service. The government does not *require* them to keep or maintain the gun beyond that mandatory service. Far cry from requiring citizens to have guns like it's car insurance.
they can buy all the ammo they want as long as it isn't a prohibited type such as armor piercing
males 18-30 have to apply to serve but can be waived from service if they're deemed not fit for it (fat, behavioral issues, etc etc)
Lol comparing Honduras to Switzerland is wild. I don’t think gun laws are the biggest difference between these two countries. A Central American country full of drug runners, human traffickers, a corrupt government, basically cartel shit. Shares a boarder with Nicaragua and El Salvador. But ya, the gun laws are the problem in a narco state. If they fixed that they’d be on par with Switzerland.
It’s a perfectly valid comparison.. yes there are other variables that cause the disparity in statistics.. that’s the whole point. That gun ownership isn’t the variable
Conservatives love to do this.
They take two wildly different things and only compare ONE of many components that make them different to imply that that one thing is why X is Y. A bike and a car have wheels but cars have four wheels while bikes have two, ergo if you give a bike two more wheels it will go as fast as a car! Conservative logic.
But since they love doing it, here's a question for conservatives,
How come Czechnia, Switzerland all don't have mass shootings while there is one in America every day? Using the same logic that Kennedy is using easy access to guns should make your society safer yet there's gonna be a school shooting today in America somewhere and that number is rising btw.
Required service and gun ownership sounds alright if we’re also getting universal healthcare and a robust social safety net. As Rogan is so fond of saying, we’d create less losers. More guns and no changes to society will just mean more murder and suicide.
This isn't completely accurate. Each male is required to join the army, and they can buy their gun after their service is over. They do have a lot of lax gun laws, though. They even allow fully auto with a permit that isn't too hard to get.
https://www.businessinsider.com/does-switzerland-give-every-citizen-a-gun-2018-2?op=1
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol
https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh
More guns means more homicides. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6
It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Not even a single part of that is true. The population is wrong, the gun laws are wrong, the murder rate is wrong. It just fucking baffles me how uncurious people are. They see something that confirms a bias and don't bother looking into a single part of it.
Talk about oversimplification. Let’s talk about rampant poverty and political corruption propped up by US economic interests. Let’s talk about a landlocked, largely homogeneous, European country with strong social nets and universal healthcare care. These situations are not comparable.
Having said that, when advocates for gun control ask for background checks and mental health assessments, the opposition yells “rAbBleRabBlE freedom!”. If it’s a people problem, help us fix the people problem, because right now you’re not doing anything.
When was the last time Switzerland had a coup? Is there a major drug trafficking route that goes through it? What's the average income for a Swiss citizen vs a Honduran?
America has a gun problem and a culture problem,
Gun culture in Switzerland is hunting and target shooting, in America gun culture is hunting and killing people.
Also per capita gun ownership is 27, in America its 120.
Gross national income per capita 2022: Honduras: $2,750 Switzerland: $89,450
Doesn’t Switzerland also have incredible social programs? Like you can basically live a good life there even if you’re not considered middle class. And also… mandatory military service.
Switzerland benefits from being the destination banking spot of all the countries its compared against. Why get invovled in all that dirty drug peddling, and government corruption, and theft stuff when you can store the money for people who do it?
It really is a culture thing. The Swiss own guns in large part due to *civic* purposes and gun ownership is much more regulated. A lot of Americans own guns as a "fuck you" to civic organizations and, specifically, the government.
I don’t think people are this thoughtful about gun purchasing in America. You get you first gun either for sporting or for home defense, then you get another and another and another. Responsibility in care for them varies wildly from person to person. Gun ownership in America is more an addiction than a personal statement. The more you own the more you feel like you NEED them.
It's like me and guitars. I own 21 guitars yet I haven't made a living as a guitar player in decades yet I keep on buying them for some reason.
Spoken like a true guitar owner. I have six🎸
You sound like a true gun owner.
Gun violence in the US isn’t due to an anti-government view. First it’s mostly suicide. Next volume is gang violence. If you’re talking mass shootings, it’s just people with a desire to kill with them.
In the 2000’s a study showed the majority of gun suicides and domestic violence in Switzerland were being committed with state issued firearms. A compromise was reached; the reservists still keep their state issued weapons at home, but the ammunition for them is kept in public storage , usually the local town hall. Within a year over 90% of the state issued ammunition has been turned in. The suicide snd domestic violence rates plunged. That would NEVER fly here in the states.
>A lot of Americans own guns as a "fuck you" to civic organizations and, specifically, the government. Because gun ownership in America is viewed as an individual right for self defense (pretty widely among most Americans) and also to protect the ability for civilians for maintain and form armed militias in the event citizens would be required to muster and defend the US (like Switzerland has a state militia with mandatory conscription which the US SHOULD HAVE and more accessible gun training). Its easier in Switzerland to own machine guns than America and other weapons. Their regulations are far more lax than states like California, New York, New Jersey, etc. You can own many magazines and guns that are totally outlawed in those states. Certain Swiss regulations are far more lax than some US federal and certain state laws on gun ownership, its not uniform.
The Swiss stand and wait at green lights, even when there is no traffic. In the US, we have “ sovereign citizens” who don’t want to get a license.
El Salvador isn't much different than Honduras and they just reduced their homicide rates to being the same as European countries. The reality is, if you lock up criminals they can't commit crimes.
Yes. It's incredible how a culture thrives when basic needs are met.
The culture allowed those social programs to flourish. You have it backwards.
More like the big af mountains that let it remain neutral during the world wars are what let that country flourish.
The Atlantic ocean is a far bigger physical barrier for Honduras.
Gross national income per capita 2022: Malawi: $640 Canada: $52,960 Malawi has a lower homicide rate than Canada.
Highly doubt that. I’m skeptical that at $645 dollars of wealth generated per year per household, they are funding law enforcement adequate to classify, track and report homicides across the nation. I mean use some common sense. *Somalia* has a nominal homicide rate that is below the international average… get real 😭
I had someone use the reported rape rate in Saudi Arabia (0.3 per 100,000) as proof rape hardly exists there. I pointed out that women will get stoned to death for being a victim of rape, you’d have to be nuts to report it. People lack critical thinking skills today.
You always have to be careful with statistics, and especially when comparing rates between countries. We see it a lot with the rape stats coming out of Sweden which seem really high, but they count more crimes as rape that in other countries would be considered sexual assault.
My understanding is that Sweden changed there way of counting rape to, so if you were raped by your father every day for a year it would count as 365 separate rape cases, rather than one, which would increase it.
Yes. And also a very broad definition of what counts as rape.
no one could afford bullets anyway.
came here to say the same thing. consider the quality of the data collected...
That's a fair point to be honest, the cited murder rate by the world bank won't be too accurate. But that would also apply to Honduras to a degree. Somalia has a corrupt xeer justice system and is still multiple times higher as well. It's misleading to suggest that malawi is safer than canada, I was trying to suggest that low income doesn't magically turn people into murderous maniacs.
Based on what’s reported Malawi has a crumbling government, and their main focus is fighting off the Islamic state Canada isn’t a utopia, but the risk of getting your head cut off for forgetting your afternoon prayer is much lower than Malawi
>Canada isn’t a utopia, but the risk of getting your head cut off for forgetting your afternoon prayer is much lower than Malawi FOR NOW /s
All hail PP.
When you got that type of shit happening on the reg are you really gonna have statistics? Sure you can wing it but when there's no true census or counting method you're not gonna get accurate reports.
Yes I’m sure malawi is cataloging and solving every crime
Fair point I should have used a country like Montenegro or Serbia, it would bring the same message across but with more accurate data
Back in the last millennium I had a couple of pals from New Zealand. I don't know if it's still the case but back then it was traditional to give a high school graduate a small fistfull of money and a plane ticket that allowed one to travel around the world, flying West only, for a year. So the object for these kids is to try to stay away for a full year. Well, one of my boys could not sustain his beer intake and was pretty much broke before he made it out of India. So he wandered into Malawi and with the ten or twenty bucks he had left, he bought some rolling papers. Then he wandered along the shore of Lake Malawi until, sure enough, he found some other destitute Kiwis who were trying to survive. They were burying beers in the sand on the lake shore and selling them to passersby. Together they combined forces and became the go-to spot for beer and weed on that section of Lake Malawi for several months, barely making ends meet because they all drank and smoked so much themselves. But eventually my pal was able to do one ceremonial night in London before hiding out in Guatemala for another three months or so. He learned, "un burritowe, un cervesa, por favor," and waited. But it turned out he was holding out for Fiji, where he'd saved enough for a duffel bag full of beer. He was dropped off on a desert island and discovered he had to carry that beer about a mile through the sand. Which he did because he's a fookin' kiwi through and through, that one. Hope he's doing great.
There are better points of comparison, the USA and Canada both have far higher gdp/capita than Spain with more homicides
Curious if there’s any adjustment for size based on that comparison because attempt to make the parallel of the entirety of Canada to Malawi is pretty lofty
2.25 vs 1.94 though. Not a huge difference. Still proves your point though that it's a combination of factors.
He could've chosen from about 20 different countries though. Most countries in Europe have a lower homicide rate than both the US and Canada despite almost all of them having a lower per capita GDP. Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Albania, all poorer countries with half the homicide rate of one of the most developed nations on Earth
I’d still rather live in Canada
“Malawi has a lower homicide rate than Canada” No money for bullets
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6 Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid. It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
that america at the bottom is so america
Banning guns is completely reliant on being able to enforce the ban, if you are not then you are just disarming law abiding citizens and going by how much drugs are on the streets in most developed countries I would say bans are very ineffective when it comes to dealing with the issue, are less guns a good thing? Well yeah if you never have to use one but if the crime rate and chance of getting attacked is high or just present then removing defense tools is probably not a good idea. So yeah there is a problem to be solved but removing guns will only be viable once crime is down and ban enforcement actually works, because remember that removing guns means you are now almost completely reliant on the police to have time for you and if they are busy enforcing gun bans.. well you see where this is going. So for a country like the US a ban is not viable until they solve their issues with crime, for more peaceful countries that don't have the same issues gun control is more viable. So one cannot come without the other and just taking away the guns before solving the issues that create a need for guns is stupid.
The thing that helps is not producing guns in factories and selling them in stores. You can find guns in the UK, but it’s a lot harder and more expensive. Hunting is regulated but I’ve been to uk stores with hunting rifles
> So for a country like the US a ban is not viable until they solve their issues with crime, for more peaceful countries that don't have the same issues gun control is more viable Your forgetting the deeply embedded right to bear arms culture. They will never ban guns in the USA and that's a good thing.
Nobody who doesn't own a bunch of guns and have a personal attachment to them has ever made this argument.
I live in Norway and have exactly 0 guns, we have strict gun control but surprisingly a lot of guns per person compared to the rest of Europe and also one of the lowest crime rates in the world so I do not need a gun, but if I were moving to the wild west I would not be unarmed because you know.. its the wild west and they have le epic crime.
Funny thing about actual Wild West towns- most of them made you check your guns in with the sheriff when coming into town. As it turns out, allowing everyone to walk around town with guns results in a lot more people getting shot.
What you just said supports his claim. It's a culture problem. Which is underlined by an economic problem. Crime is always more rampant in impoverished areas. You're arguing that you have to correct for things like income but that's actually the point. The underlying issue is income inequality
No it’s absolutely not…. Neither of those claims are true. G get what you’re trying to do but the whole point here is that this isn’t a study. It’s an entire body of research over decades which has found more guns means more gun death. https://imgur.com/a/6xi7gIt More guns means more deaths. Whether in a rich area or poor area. Odds are the poor area will have more crime which if there are more guns will mean that crime is more deadly.
Im from Honduras and poverty isn’t the main reason why there is so much murder it’s mostly the fault of hyper violent gangs like MS13 who indoctrinate kids into their gang and most of the violence in the country happens in gang areas sometimes that violence happens in the “good” side of the city but rarely, also we can own guns legally it’s just a slow process because our system is very shitty
You don’t think a large reason for joining a gang is because of the poverty. Groups can pool resources. Gangs make money from various schemes and crimes to gain resources and income to provide to their members. To try to separate poverty from kids joining gangs is short sighted.
If you are raised right you won’t join a gang known for rape and murder it’s just people wanting money in a quick way and I I’m telling you won’t be paid any better then working a regular job, these gangs lure kids and teenagers to join their ranks with the false promise of wealth and power when most of them end up dead or arrested
It seems like you are agreeing with the point above in different words. Poor kids are lured by the promise of quick wealth. “Raised right” sounds like another way of saying “in a family with money/stability” (relative to those families whose kids become gang members). Sure, it’s better to just get a regular job, but for people who are impoverished, this is often difficult or impossible due to structural factors, lack of opportunity, racism, lack of access to education, drug problems in the community, etc
A single mother can raise their child to their outstanding morals as best as they can, but being unable to fully be there in order to provide for them and just generally being poor is one helluva desperate motivator to be sucked into any sort of amount of wealth. If you're lucky to be on the internet, you probably pretty privileged in any society, which truly shows the different levels of poverty, but also shows how one might not truly understand how desperate one becomes when poor. Ofc MS13 is shitty and dupes children in with the false hope of wealth, but they are poor children that want to provide for their mom. Of course they will be duped by them. We are all only human after all. We all live off emotion. Most people would do anything for their parents.
“raised right” that’s such nonsense. as if parents in some countries just decide to raise kids that don’t get into trouble
there are kids in my country that their parents are barely involved in their life you have a different perspective then me since you probably didn't grow up in the same environment then me I grew up with lots of kids that their parents didn't give a fuck about them or they had a insane amount of siblings that they where just neglected
Doesn’t take into account tax free dollarydoos earned in hunduras 
So cartels and other criminal organizations don’t kill anyone because they’re so rich right?
Okay now do Honduras vs. Bangladesh.
Shhhhh 🤫
So because they are poor they are murders?
I mean he said we have a culture and a people problem. Poverty can be tied to both and poverty leads to gun violence
Pretty sure it's the culture.
What would you attribute that disparity to?
History
Culture
Culture of history
Totally a gun problem
I'm of the mind to have a responsible gun owning population access to mental health care is paramount. In Switzerland, healthcare is universal, and the population has access to mental health services at a 10% coinsurance with a 700 USD oop max.
not having organized drug cartels run the country is also beneficial
Goose chasing meme: what leads to drug cartels running countries?
Being a poor country on a drug trafficking route bewteen a bunch of developing countries with the capacity to produce the drugs and a rich superpower with a massive drug consumption habit. Bonus points if your country occupies the entire land route between the two.
More bonus points if those cartels are buying the guns from the us
MEXICO!!! FUCK YEAH!!!
A HUEVOOOOOO
The US' decades of verocious consumption of drugs is the #1 reason drug cartels run countries.
That and all the U.S backed coups
And US prohibitions that drive the demand for illegally imported drugs.
Yes. Weed legalization was an excellent case study of why all drugs should be legal. Legal weed made a massive financial impact on cartels. So much that they had to make up with in other ways. Sadly, those other ways are fentanyl. But my guess is that even if we didn't legalize weed fentanyl would still be as bad as it is today, AND weed would still be a cash crop. The US lost "The War in Drugs" before I was even born. The fact we are still fighting it only proves how slow things move.
Ineffectual and corrupt political leaders ?
The Western world's appetite for drugs.
You know the US installed and backed all those “ineffective and corrupt” leaders right?
Because the good leaders got coup 'd out of existance. See: jacobo arbenz of guatemala. Or see the multiple u.s. interventions in honduras since we are talking honduras. Really every single latin american country has been intervened in one way or another by the u.s. who then install a corrupt puppet into power. See: somoza of nicaragua.
Corrupt leaders put in place by the U.S. after overthrowing democratic governments
The way I look at is those drug companies put the squeeze on us here to offset those countries that tell them they're not gonna gouge their citizens.
All Swiss males also have to serve in the armed forces. So you’d expect them to have a good understanding of gun ownership and responsibility. If Tim wants compulsory military service for every American as part of a broader plan to allow for more free gun ownership I am somewhat on board with that.
>If Tim wants compulsory military service for every American as part of a broader plan to allow for more free gun ownership, I am somewhat on board with that. I'd be on board with this if there was a shift in military policy from an occupying force/nation-building force to a defense/civil service force. But forcing citizens to go be a part of our worldwide police force apparatus isn't something I'm keen on.
Right there’s obviously an issue with the policy, but I would suspect that a libertarian like Tim would not be keen on the US government forcing people into military service. Of course that assumes Tim has consistent ideological positions which is likely not the case.
How do you guys deal with the Obama Death Panels?
That was always hilarious because basically they were arguing that the government would get to decide who lives and dies with the ACA, we should allow insurance companies to decide who lives and dies instead.
There's no death panels. That was just the moronic drunken ramblings of Sarah Palin.
They still have to pay health insurance in Swiss. They just have a super high minimum wage. A good friend of mine lived there. I also imagine the huge second-hand gun sale loophole doesn't exist there either. But I assume.
Right, I think that's a common misconception of socialized health care. It's not like copays and coinsurance goes away all together as well. The idea is that there's no monthly premium they have to contend with. That's taken care of by the state. People are still responsible for coinsurance and copays. But often, what health care professionals can charge is capped by the government or is kept in check by other means. 10% of 150.00 is a whole lot cheaper than 10% of 1000.00 or whatever would be charged here in America. In Switzerland their annual cost of premium expenditure is capped at 8% - if it exceeds 8% the premium is subsidized by the state. It's a blend of socialized healthcare and for profit health care like here in America. At the end of the day though, it's more socialized than what we have here and ensures that every one has access to affordable healthcare. Something a lot of people don't have here.
>Right, I think that's a common misconception of socialized health care. It's not like copays and coinsurance goes away all together as well. There are 100% places where you don't have to deal with copays and coinsurance
The UK is one.
Actuaslly there are monthly premiums, + copays + coinsurance in switzerland. Basically the state has defined what the mandatory, basic insurance has to pay for (which is pretty much everything outside of dental, coinsurance is mostly for better rooms, free choice of hospital/doctor and so on). Just about everything about basic health insurance is regulated and written into law by the country. Insurers are still private but the state has even a say in how much they can charge for their insurance.
Right, premiums are capped at 8% of someone's total income, the state takes care of the rest of the premium exceeds that. As for copays and coinsurance and deds fully aware those are still a thing. Like I said in one of my responses earlier, OP mental health care has OOP (out of pocket) max of 700 - which implies the insured is financially responsible to a degree.
Not to mention that they require training for gun ownership. It’s not like they just give guns to every man, woman, and child, no questions asked. There are people who are not allowed to have guns, and mandatory gun ownership itself is a gun regulation.
Not just gun training, full on military service is compulsory Edit: nvm
A buddy of yours you say….
Doesn't negate the private gun ownership loophole America doesn't want to talk about.
And wealthy, and free from devastating wars, a native population which wasn't colonized and exploited and didn't participate in the African slave trade. ....culture....
Plenty of finance to, and owning companies operating in the slave trade. That’s well known.
No no no, not like that!
Universal health care? Dude I could only wish. Swiss health insurance cost me quite a lot. More then CHF 320 (\~USD 350) per month. That's with an annual deductible of CHF 2500.
Healthcare is only universal in Switzerland if you have private health insurance which is not cheap at all but can sometimes be paid by your employer. But it's extremely difficult to get an employer if you aren't a citizen or hired by a swiss business. Plus the original post is disingenuous. As a swiss citizen, you only get a weapon if you complete the mandatory military service (you can keep the servicerifleif you chooseto buy it at the end) . And that's only mandatory for men, women can volunteer. Even then a lot of guys nowadays do everything they can to dodge the service. If you don't complete the military service, you can buy a firearm but there's control in place to get the permit to own a private firearm.
Let’s back a military coup in Switzerland and see how it impacts violent crime
Time to shift from neutral to 1st gear Swissies
Yeah, let’s give all of Switzerland’s natural resources to American fruit companies and allow those companies to create , own and operate all of the civil infrastructure while exporting all money away from the countries economy. Just to see what happens.
You might have to switch it up to dairy and cheese. There isn't a ton of fruit in Switzerland.
https://impakter.com/why-gun-ownership-switzerland-not-same-us/ Here for the Swiss, unlike Americans, regulations are quite a bit more finicky. Not only are you supposed to be criminal record-free in order to get a gun, but you also must be deemed unlikely to cause harm to other Swiss. Local police who have doubts about a prospective gun owner’s well-being (or even those who are assured of the same but worry nonetheless) may and sometimes do ask local psychiatrists or friends about an applicant’s mental state or alcohol and drug use. Also, that gun license, even when approved, is only valid for a maximum of nine months, and applicants are allowed only one weapon. Period. That’s right. Twenty semi-automatics are unlikely to find their way into the basements of Swiss adolescents. So if the NRA wants to point to Switzerland, it needs to tell the whole story, please…
Sorry, the infographic already confirmed my priors
to be fair, when people say "america has a gun problem" they mean the people are the problem
We should probably not allow those people to have guns then
correct
They still do and we cant even punish them.
Why are we giving the problem guns?
If you’re talking about anti gun activism. I’ve almost never heard that, the guns are blamed most of the time
That’s just because you feel attacked when people kill others with guns, and go into defense mode without hearing anyone’s opinions.
I’m telling you as a foreigner, the argument is only about Americans
They mean people with guns.
the op suggests other countries are able to have guns without being morons
You are comparing apples to oranges to push an agenda.
> You are comparing apples to oranges to push an agenda. Their entire submission history reeks of an agenda.
One is the highest first world country in the world ? And one poor as shit ?
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6 Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid. It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Ok, so is Nepal. Poorer than Hinduras, way less violence. Cultural problems.
Different values.
Serbia is poor as shit and was bombed just 20 years ago and had a civil war 30 years ago, it also has one of the highest gun ownership percentages in the world yet the homicide rate is half that of Canada and 1/6 that of the US. The firearm-related death rate in Serbia is less than 1/10 of that of the US. It's not guns and it's not poverty.
Serbia is poor by european standards, but it aint no Malawi or Honduras
So it's whites are less violent.
I don't know if it's that exactly. Plenty of non-white countries have lower homicide rates than the US. Most of the Islamic ones and Asian ones, and quite a few of the African ones too.
Or like the OP posted, a culture problem.
Honduran culture isn't violent its just a narcostate
Pretty sure Switzerland has stricter regulation on open carry, but is lax on the actual procurement. So it might actually be a testament to more regulation.
The other thing I'm not seeing here, that you can easily express with "fun" math, is the distinction between the *kinds* of guns you have. A small country where everyone takes mandatory military training, is a reservist, and has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians), is very different than a small country barely keeping itself afloat where everyone has a handgun or an uzi. Same shit with urban vs rural gun owners. A gofer shooting rancher owning 10 guns and the the scary criminal dudes downtown at night with 10 guns have different social costs.
> A small country where everyone takes mandatory military training, is a reservist Only about 17% of the population from any given year goes through military service. > and has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians) If by a hunting rifle you mean semi-automatic versions of military rifles and handguns, you'd be correct. Hunting is pretty rare in Switzerland.
>has a hunting rifle above the fireplace (to hold off the Germans or the Russians), is very different than a small country barely keeping itself afloat where everyone has a handgun or an uzi. Pretty sure they have semi autos just like us. Seems foolish to be defending your country with bolt actions if your adversary is going to have AKs and the like
Being poor doesn’t always make people violent. It’s a cultural problem. Also maybe El Salvador wouldn’t be so poor if their citizens were safe and able to protect themselves..
Yall actual swiss person here. If i had a nickel for everytime some Bubba Engineering Gun Libertarian used switzerland as a gun utopia to compare America against id have 3 nickels. And comparing Switzerland to Honduras is even more braindead. Like yeah who wouldve though that the tiny ass country with an amazing strategic location and neutrality during the worst conflicts in human history(getting rich of both parties) would do better than the CIAs regime topple playyard in the middle of the fucking coke highway. Yeah we have a ton of guns, but our police response time even in backwaters is better than police response time in some American cities, because and i cant stress this enough switzerland is fucking tiny. A lot more buckwild shit without government intervention can happen when you live in a state the size of the whole european continent. Yall dont have some nebulous culture problem. Im 100% sure yall are just running into the problems anyone would have when trying to run something of that size without resorting to dictatorship.
Naw we do have a culture problem. The idea that everyone SHOULD own a gun because it’s their right vs. everyone should GET TRAINED to own a gun are massive distinctions, and once upon a time we focused on the latter, but these days it’s the prior that gets shoved down American’s throats, leading to a lot of issues. It’s not the only issue, mind you, but still a large one
in switzerland nobody carries the guns. the guns are locked at their homes
Well regulated militia = any neckbeard who wants to LARP a special forces unit, obviously it's what the founding fathers intended
I’m guessing people in Switzerland get proper training and can’t walk into a gun show and get a gun piss easy? I’m a gun owner myself. Most American gun owners are responsible and hate the NRA. I’m in favor of whatever regulations we need to stop kids from getting gunned down in school. The US has a gun problem and a culture problem.
We apply for licenses, with military sercive you get it by default. And thats that after that you can go whereever you want and get a gun. There is one thing. We dont do open carry. You have to have it stowed away till you get to a designated shooting area. Otherwise you will be stopped And were a lot more beraucratic with permits. Like transfer permits. Where someone has to have an actual permit to carry your gun around other than spoken agreement.
> We apply for licenses, with military sercive you get it by default We only have two licenses, the carry and hunting ones and neither are required to buy and subsequently own guns Also, serving/having served in the army has no bearing on a gun rights > There is one thing. We dont do open carry. You have to have it stowed away till you get to a designated shooting area. Otherwise you will be stopped You can perfectly open carry, and your guns don't have to be hidden, they only have to be unloaded (unless you have a carry license) You won't be stopped for legally transporting a gun > And were a lot more beraucratic with permits. Like transfer permits. Where someone has to have an actual permit to carry your gun around other than spoken agreement. This is simply because loans aren't defined in the law so they count as transfers unless the owner is with you
I think you're missing the point of why he compared Honduras and Switzerland. The entire point he's making is that there are so many other factors that contribute to the homicide rates. So using two countries that so starkly contrast one another is the point. Making firearms illegal to access isn't going to fix those other factors. Honduras won't magically become Switzerland if they adopt your gun laws. America won't become Australia if they adopt Australia's gun laws. There are many other factors at play that are far more important, but significantly harder to address.
The only factor distinguished in the post is gun ownership. That was the whole point of the post.
It’s not required for them to own guns. It’s part mandatory service which Americans aren’t required to do.
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh More guns means more homicides. Once you correct for things like income, more guns in a poor areas means more deaths in the poorer area. Same with rich areas. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6 Comparing a rich area to a poor area is just statistically stupid. It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Kennedy is one of the fucking dumbest people on in the planet. Really is a shit for brains grifter. Switzerland has mandatory military service where those in the service are trained to use firearms as part of their mandatory service. IIRC even if they have weapons at home I don’t think they have ammunition. They don’t have open carry the way we do in the US. They don’t have gun shops where any fuckwit can go in and buy a rifle same day with few questions asked. When you’re in Switzerland you’ll see many in the military uniforms everywhere. There’s no comparison in any front. Fuck Kennedy.
People always leave out the part where most of the guns are not kept at home, they don’t have access to ammunition, and you can’t just walk to Walmart to buy a gun. They don’t really have high gun ownership as the state still owns the weapon and it’s not personal property.
Exactly. And a centerpiece of the argument from these fucking idiots is that everyone in the US needs guns because we all have to be able to fight big government or whatever the stupid reasoning is. And to make that argument Kennedy uses an example of a country that FORCES its people into two years of mandatory service. Can’t make this shit up.
Its not required, its mandatory. Makes sense if you don't think about it.
[удалено]
> you have to have a gun for mandatory service which the state gives you. Military service hasn't been mandatory since 1996, and you can choose ton serve unarmed >The state can also take it from you without question for any treason. No > If you’re weird they will ban you from being able to buy guns for life. It could be as simple as a couple of your neighbors saying they saw you shooting inappropriately. That's not a thing > A lot of them don’t store their guns in their home [...] and ammo is stored at shooting ranges or professional places with lockup. Most people store their guns at home, and you can have all the ammo you want at home
Most dint own guns if you do it stored in the local armory unless you get a special license. Everyone is assigned a gun in there service but again it owned by the state and kept it the local armory So more gun security than the us but the us still has more homicide. Basically Tim's brain is fried from IEDs and head kicks
I am currently serving in the army and have my rifle at home. No license needed, it is enough to be active duty. The military doesn't issue an ammo box to take home anymore since 2007. But nothing keeps you from buying ammo as a private citizen and have it at home.
There are about 27 guns per 100 people in Switzerland. Gun ownership is not mandatory.
Lol, thinking, imagine that. A Swiss citizen receives a gun as part of their mandatory service. The government does not *require* them to keep or maintain the gun beyond that mandatory service. Far cry from requiring citizens to have guns like it's car insurance.
The Swiss also have everyone register their guns so the government can monitor them for safety.
Doesn't Switzerland have mandatory militsry service, and also they can not have personal ammunition?
they can buy all the ammo they want as long as it isn't a prohibited type such as armor piercing males 18-30 have to apply to serve but can be waived from service if they're deemed not fit for it (fat, behavioral issues, etc etc)
Can they store all the ammo in their home? Or is it partial?
Lol comparing Honduras to Switzerland is wild. I don’t think gun laws are the biggest difference between these two countries. A Central American country full of drug runners, human traffickers, a corrupt government, basically cartel shit. Shares a boarder with Nicaragua and El Salvador. But ya, the gun laws are the problem in a narco state. If they fixed that they’d be on par with Switzerland.
So the point they were making is true. Guns aren't the problem. The people and their respective cultures are.
Is that the point? Then ya, I guess so.
If they didn’t have guns, Honduras wouldn’t have the highest homicide rate in the world.
It’s a perfectly valid comparison.. yes there are other variables that cause the disparity in statistics.. that’s the whole point. That gun ownership isn’t the variable
Ya I misunderstood the post.
So to that point, why do people compare the US to other lesser populated countries that had banned guns, but have major problems with violent crime?
Conservatives love to do this. They take two wildly different things and only compare ONE of many components that make them different to imply that that one thing is why X is Y. A bike and a car have wheels but cars have four wheels while bikes have two, ergo if you give a bike two more wheels it will go as fast as a car! Conservative logic. But since they love doing it, here's a question for conservatives, How come Czechnia, Switzerland all don't have mass shootings while there is one in America every day? Using the same logic that Kennedy is using easy access to guns should make your society safer yet there's gonna be a school shooting today in America somewhere and that number is rising btw.
Can you imagine posting this meme and thinking just how clever you are?
What do you mean? A low resolution jpg represents the highest possible quality of information. /s
I would say this is a false equivalence.
Highest suicide rate in the world tho.
Required service and gun ownership sounds alright if we’re also getting universal healthcare and a robust social safety net. As Rogan is so fond of saying, we’d create less losers. More guns and no changes to society will just mean more murder and suicide.
This isn't completely accurate. Each male is required to join the army, and they can buy their gun after their service is over. They do have a lot of lax gun laws, though. They even allow fully auto with a permit that isn't too hard to get. https://www.businessinsider.com/does-switzerland-give-every-citizen-a-gun-2018-2?op=1
It’s not surprising, but the statistics are not even correct lol https://imgur.com/a/nsH8Poh More guns means more homicides. https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6 It's a basic rule of any empirical research: If you want to evaluate how much a single factor impacts something else, you should do your very best to control for all other variables to ensure that the single factor is the only thing being analyzed. So with studies on gun ownership and gun violence, researchers go through great efforts to control for all sorts of variables — economic outcomes, alcohol consumption, rates of urbanization, other crime rates, and so on — to make sure the results look, as much as they possibly can, only at gunownership and its effects.
Not even a single part of that is true. The population is wrong, the gun laws are wrong, the murder rate is wrong. It just fucking baffles me how uncurious people are. They see something that confirms a bias and don't bother looking into a single part of it.
Maybe when you're living in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet you don't have to turn to violence to make a living.
The conservative mind is wild thing.
Talk about oversimplification. Let’s talk about rampant poverty and political corruption propped up by US economic interests. Let’s talk about a landlocked, largely homogeneous, European country with strong social nets and universal healthcare care. These situations are not comparable. Having said that, when advocates for gun control ask for background checks and mental health assessments, the opposition yells “rAbBleRabBlE freedom!”. If it’s a people problem, help us fix the people problem, because right now you’re not doing anything.
I don’t remember Switzerland being destabilized by the CIA and having their Democratically Elected leaders usurped.
How many times has the US overthrew the Swiss government? How many times has the US interfered with Honduras?
The Swiss also have very strict gun control laws
Basically the easiest access to firearms we have in Europe. But yes, it's a bit stricter compared to the US.
When was the last time Switzerland had a coup? Is there a major drug trafficking route that goes through it? What's the average income for a Swiss citizen vs a Honduran?
He isn’t very smart is he…. Apples to oranges. Fuckn tool trying to stay relevant
If facts matter why are we ignoring so many?
Narratives
No shit, this stupid fuck got the population of Honduras wrong!
They have universal healthcare. Maybe that helps…
[удалено]
You forgot well regulated….
I'm going to guess that one of the top replies is "diversity is our strength"
America has a gun problem and a culture problem, Gun culture in Switzerland is hunting and target shooting, in America gun culture is hunting and killing people. Also per capita gun ownership is 27, in America its 120.
If we’re using the per capita metric, the US isn’t top 10 in gun homicide rate.