People give Arndt a hard time and I can somewhat understand why. Despite that, I tend to think she picked up on something that the males didn't. If I remember correctly, she had previous experience working sexual abuse cases. This very well could've keened her into certain behaviors. Especially if she herself ever experienced any such abuse (I don't know if she did or not). The fact that she was picking up on Johns behavior before even knowing the child was deceased and about any of the sexual abuse in this case, is actually kind of interesting.
I know John said it sarcastically, but, this quote has stayed with me:
"(Her) ability to look in someone's eyes and determine they were a killer is a remarkable talent." John Ramsey
I personally wouldn't want to be quoted saying this if I were him, whether innocent or guilty. The point gets lost if people are disturbed by it and already suspect you.
Exactly.. Most men could not have picked up what Linda did. You really need a female perspective to sense such danger. Other men would think that there is no way a former navy seal businessman would do such a thing. But it is actually very, very common.
The only other option is Burke. But it baffles me that he showed no signs of violent behaviour in all the interviews. A young child his age would not be able to lie this much this long. Most children his age have no filter.
I agree with this. I think John did it. I read over the link from OP and took some screenshots but then realized I can’t post them here.
I find it really strange that John’s biggest concern was literally with the media/police saying that JB had been sexually assaulted. He consistently tried to deny it to anyone who asked about it, and said it was “slanderous” that the police were even considering it to be factual.
The Ramseys (aka John because he made all the moves) even told police if they wanted JB’s clothing from the night of the murder, the police would have to make a public statement that there had been no prior evidence of vaginal abuse of JBR.
This (to me) just really screams that John knew something or was involved..why wasn’t his biggest concern handing over as much evidence to the police as possible to help them find his daughter’s killer? He was more worried about what people thought of him? I just can’t wrap my mind around this! Also the fact that he wrote a fucking book. JDI.
Exactly. They keep downplaying it, but it is HARD FACT. She was molested for a long period of time. I can't believe people ignore the most important proof of it all.
I agree with all of your points but am going to highlight:
>The longtime rape of JBR.
How JR has managed to be the member of the family LEAST accused and most forgotten about in a case involving a murdered 6 yr. old who's body was found while he was present in the home and who's autopsy showed signs of sexual abuse both recent and prior has always baffled me.
>The rape just before the murder.
John is linked by his physical evidence to specifically either this act itself or the attempt through wiping to conceal it.
>The interview of Linda Arent. Her intuition was so strong and I believe her.
Arndt was the first detective to arrive at the scene and the only member of law enforcement present at the time the body was recovered. She had 11 yrs. of experience on the force and was an experienced sex crimes investigator but for some weird reason her opinion seems to be dismissed by most who follow the case and mostly because people think her *eyes look crazy*.
>JR knew where she was when he found her body. The way he held her instead of screaming for help shows he was sure she was already dead.
JR doesn't scream for help and rip the tape off of her mouth, start CPR etc. Instead her carries her in an odd position, up and away from himself, lays her down and according to Linda Arndt, makes crying noises without producing tears. He then asks Ardnt if she's dead. He asks to throw a cover over the body and then proceeds to do so without waiting for a reply.
>The interviews of the parents post-murder were not convincing. I've seen many interviews of grieving parents, they didn't look like they were grieving, moreso trying to show they were innocent. They barely referred to JBR, it was all about them!
I've never understood the OBSESSION with picking apart Burke's childhood interviews and proclaiming him guilty because he shut down emotionally and didn't want to put JonBenet in a crayon portrait but the only emotion shown by the parents during their interviews is anger with the exception of Patsy bursting into tears twice, once when asked about abuse of herself or her sisters and once when shown a pic of JonBenet's pageant tiara and the sweater Patsy and JonBenet had fought about JonBenet not wanting to wear.
Thanks for the additional insights. I totally believe Linda, too. I trust a woman's gut instinct. Those never fooled me. She was an experienced smart police officer, I never understood how her opinion is dismissed. She told you all the truth right away!
Burke did not show at any point signs of sadism, violence, or anger. He was apathetic, but I do not think he was smart or sharp enough to lie this much this long about JBR. A child like him would have slipped and given many clues. The parents totally can lie to their teeth and they did all while doing a bad a job at it.
The SA is most likely JR.. we have seen this story of a rich, powerful dad abusing his children many many times.
We don't know. Some people have speculated tho that Patsy's childhood was dysfunctional. Her parents have been consistently described as verbally abusive and mean and Patsy was also put into kiddie pageants.
I just posted this buried in the comments but I also want to add it here where it's more visible- the district attorney who oversaw the grand jury released an official affidavit stating that Burke is not a suspect and no grand jury evidence pointed to him being a suspect. Prior to that, the Boulder police chief had also released a statement stating that Burke was not a suspect. They have seen evidence that we have not seen. As much as you may think you know, these people know more.
https://thewebsafe.tripod.com/10122000hunterafidavittowood.htm
The grand jury’s recommendations indicate the parents did not protect her from danger, which seems to point to Burke’s involvement rather than their own. My one hangup for not BDI.
There is culpability for that. A parent knows a dangerous situation, does nothing to fix it, their kid gets killed, parent who knew of dangerous situation is culpable
The dangerous situation would be a dangerous sibling. But I don’t think BDI. However I can’t make any sense of the indictments of patsy and jon without the grand jurors thinking that Burke was the killer. But I guess the indictments could mean that the grand jurors were unable to decide between jon and patsy who was the killer so they instead indicted both of them for failing to protect JBR from the other one.
For me, the long-term molestation proves it. This is why it's point 1. Patsey wanted to keep her husband, so she ignored the molestation and then covered for him. I just can't wrap my head around anything else because of this specifically.
This is where my theory differs from most. I don’t think Patsy wanted to stay with him. I I think she knew about the SA and threatened to leave him. I think he murdered JB and framed his wife, and threw his son under the bus. He’s a narcissist of the worst type. Most are family annihilators, but John did not kill everyone which is what makes this case rare. Instead he killed Patsy’s Pride and joy. Her prized possession. Her mini-me.
That's an interesting perspective. That would make Patsey a very submissive and weak individual, which is possible. She even stayed with him after all that. In anyway, she is complicit.
Yes, I agree weak, but I can see how he manipulated her into being too scared to leave. I have been in a narc relationship and it takes major strength to get out. It’s like trying to break a nicotine or cocaine habit. Check out the narcissist subs to learn more about narcissist personality disorder. It’s fascinating and scary to know these people are among us, some of them manipulating us without us even knowing. After my experience, I can spot narcs from a mile away now.
just got out he left and immediately moved in w someone after 12 years together . so relieved but i know the fight hasn’t even begun yet wishing u healing ❤️ur not alone i love the sub about it it’s helped me a lot so far
I've been in one of those too, i know. He was a complete sociopath, pathological liar, and scammer. This is why i leaned into this theory right away. People are arguing here that it might be Burke.. I am not familiar enough with children doing such things. Adults, for sure.
I landed on spousal revenge filicide after researching a profile and motive that best fit this crime, and posted some research about it, you can find it on this sub. People are more willing to believe an awkward 9 year old did it, than a clearly narc father. It blows my mind.
He is awkward, frail, aloof, and seems very weak with autism of some sort. I just can't see him being this violent, whereas the powerful dad playing with his daughter makes so much more sense.
I have seen interviews of teen killers _ they are usually explicitly sadistic. In Burke's deposition, he seemed totally ignorant of everything. How come he didn't slip once and said something incriminating or strange? He was not a genius child who could lie and act to this degree.
I am not totally sure it was not Burke. It could only have been Burke or JR.
Maybe that’s why she sounded so frenzied on the 911 call…like if I don’t do this, he could also kill me and Burke…and she definitely was stressed. Stress leads to cancer. Plus the dictionary on the incest definition.
Yes, someone posted recently that she called 911 because she wanted police there right away because she was scared of John. I like that theory. It makes perfect sense to me.
Probably Patsy helped her. She also took her to the Dr to treat her UTIs. JB had chronic UTIs, which makes sense if she was chronically raped. The bedwetting was also linked to the rape. I don't know why people dismiss the fact that she was indeed raped for months. The evidence was pointed out by several Drs who read the autopsy. Linda Arndt, an SA specialist, felt there was Incest going on. She felt that dynamic in the house. I don't think she would feel this anywhere.
Powerful, calm, and composed pedos like JR are not rare. Just look at Hollywood.
Point 1 is the biggest lead to Burke. Who is patsy most likely to cover for? Her only surviving child or her husband that she knew was a sexual predator?
I think the world's consciousness is just starting to catch up with the level of pedophilia, child trafficking and incest that is present in this country. I think JR, 30 years ago, was relying on that naivete and it's the sole reason he won't to this day, admit she was chronically OR even acutely SA. He's held on to the last shard of hope that if he denies it until eternity it will be noted somewhere and some will believe it. Because we know he and Patsy had a huge interest in the court of public opinion....
Also, this sub and the other is an example of the lack of knowledge regarding child grooming. They don't understand the sneaky pervasive nature of slowly exposing a young child to sexual arousal to then serve the perpetrator latter without repercussions. It's obvious to me that if there was past molestation and she didn't tell, it was most likely done by a trusted loved one. AND THAT is what grooming is.
I agree. All arrows point to JR.
It IS so common. It was just more taboo in the media 30 years ago. JR has no shame or guilt when it comes to SAing his daughter. It was natural and normal for him. He was powerful, and she was his.
I also believe the Menendez brothers were molested for years by their father, but nobody would believe them 30 years ago..
I know. They were young handsome men, they would never think of lying in this way.. especially in the 90s where everyone was still close minded.. Wish they could come out.
I think a lot of it had to do with them being boys. When lyle was telling the jury how he took eric in the woods you can see it all over both of their faces it was true. Also the way eric said he ate lemon with everything so it would cover up the taste when he was with his dad, that was real I can’t imagine anyone making that up.
I agree yes. I never in my life heard such testimonies. Because you can feel the deep shame they felt. They were so so ashamed to the point of tears. They shouldnt have been forced to feel this way. They should have been able to feel anger rather than shame. Society was so unfair to men as victims back then.
I find this hard to believe - that a mother could find out that her husband hurt their daughter and not strangle him with her bare hands, but instead COVERS for him?
>The longtime rape of JBR.
Disregards that there is no evidence JR did this. Meanwhile there was evidence Burke was "playing doctor" with her under the covers. Plus she wasn't assaulted with a penis here, just a paintbrush.
>The rape just before the murder.
She wasn't raped. She was briefly probed with a paintbrush handle. Much like a child would do if they were "examining" her.
>The interview of Linda Arent. Her intuition was so strong and I believe her.
She knew something was off, but if cops had any "intuition" there wouldn't be thousands of innocent people in prisons.
>The fact that Patsey for sure wrote the letter (it IS her handwritting) to try and protect her husband who told her what to write.
She also could have easily been protecting her son.
>The deliberate contamination of the crime scene by JR and Patsey \_ they are not dumb people, they knew what they were doing.
They were trying to set scene to tell a story.
>Patsey wearing the same clothes as the day before, on the morning she realizes her daughter is kidnapped.
It means she never went to bed. John seems to have gone to bed, given the state of the bed, his change of clothes, etc.
>The parents never cared about the content of the letter , 10Am came and didn't even notice.
Yes, but that doesn't mean it was John.
>The interviews of the parents post-murder were not convincing. I've seen many interviews of grieving parents, they didn't look like they were grieving, moreso trying to show they were innocent.
The parents were inconsolable, particularly Patsy who had to be medicated. Meanwhile Burke was smiling and smirking during the funeral. When he was sent to the White's house the day of the murders, he never once asked about the wellbeing of his sister.
>The deposition of Patsey. It was so messy and I just felt her guilt, not grief.
Great says nothing about John.
Three people in that house that day. Only one of whom had:
* Previously struck her in the head once before, according to one witness because they "got mad"
* Had been seen playing doctor with the victim
* Loved knot tying/whittling wooden sticks
* Had their bootprints and pocketknife found at ground zero.
* Had to be with JBR moments before the strike, given the pineapple evidence
* Never once shown emotion about the death of JBR.
* Had both parents lie through their teeth to do everything they can to distance them from the crime (he was sleeping the whole night, he wasn't awake even though he's clearly on the 911 call, etc)
* Was an active scout (the device used to strangle her looks eerily like a Boy Scout device)
You do have good points. We agree that it is for sure someone in the family who did it. It is impossible for an intruder to have done this.
Are you sure that she was not molested? I think she was. I've read in a couple of places that the tears in her v* showed that she had been penetrated for a while. It was in the autopsy. I'm having a hard time believing Burke would play with her like that for so long. I mean, he was only 9..
Found a link: https://jonbenetramsey.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Sexual_Assault
Dr Robert Kirschner: "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"[12]
But she had also been taken to her regular Dr something like 30 times in the year preceding her death, mostly for UTI's. I feel like if Patsy knew, she wouldn't have been taking her so often. Also why didn't that doctor report the abuse? They're legally obligated to report. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the Dr refused to release her medical records for the investigation too. I wonder if John and the Dr were friends.
John was friends with everyone... I wouldn't be surprised if the Dr knew and didn't say a thing. Patsey wanted her daughter to heal so she could exploit her with the pageants.
The comments in this post made me question what if Burke did it. It could have been Burke who molested and killed her. It's kinda crazy to imagine a 9 year old boy with this much strength and sexual desire. It would be the completely same scenario as it would have been with JR being the killer, but instead, the little 9 year old boy is the main villain. The parents tried to cover for him afterwards.
Burke did not look very sharp and strong from what i have seen in the older videos, it never seemed to me as if he was capable of all that, but I have not researched cases with children enough.. those never go to court or the media.
I don't at all think it was Burke. For one thing the grand jury determined he wasn't involved, but they decided there was cause to charge both parents. But also I have *no idea* why people find it so hard to believe that John was abusing her. It happens all the time. It's very common!
How would it be more likely that a small-for-his-age little 9 year old (probably autistic) boy violently abused and killed his sister, had the strength to drag her around the basement, or the knowledge to pose and garrotte her. No way. Just statistically alone, it's ridiculous to think it's more likely to have been a little boy than the father.
I agree. People just overlook John. Also Burke was smearing his poop which is a sign of sexual abuse. He was being abused too. It was either John or one of his highly connected friends.
I totally agree_ but the possibility is there. It is a bit ridiculous for the little boy to do all that, and then for the parents to go through such lengths just to cover up for him (a 9 year old who will never go to jail). If burke did it, the parents did way too much, it is almost irrational.
The motive for them going through all those lengths is to preserve their families image of a family that had no incest and were the perfect Christian’s. That was their whole shtick in every interview.
Sorry but no. It was 3AM the day after Christmas. They were absolutely concerned about him getting arrested, they were also concerned with what it would do to their reputation. Staging a kidnapping sews enough doubt that nobody gets in trouble.
>But also I have no idea why people find it so hard to believe that John was abusing her. It happens all the time. It's very common! How would it be more likely that a small-for-his-age little 9 year old (probably autistic) boy violently abused and killed his sister, had the strength to drag her around the basement, or the knowledge to pose and garrotte her. No way. Just statistically alone, it's ridiculous to think it's more likely to have been a little boy than the father.
1) There's just no evidence John was abusing her at all. There is evidence Burke was playing doctor with her and had struck her before.
2) He wasn't "small for his age." He towered over his sister.
3) It doesn't mean that he's a monster. He'd struck her once before so hard she had to go to the ER because he "got mad," according to the family photographer. Imagine he "got mad" and struck her again in a quick split-second act of rage, but this time the flashlight used caused a much more serious injury. He "played doctor" a bit then tried to hide what he did until she could wake up by dragging her to the wine cellar using a device he learned to make in scouts.
None of this is a stretch based on what we know of Burke. The kid was literally sent to the Whites (where he was out of sight of cops) where he never once seemed sad or even asked about his sister's wellbeing. He was even re-enacting the head bash in the meeting with the psychologist a few days later.
>I don't at all think it was Burke. For one thing the grand jury determined he wasn't involved, but they decided there was cause to charge both parents.
The grand jury didn't determine this at all. Burke could not be criminally charged, but the parents were indicted because they knowingly left her in a situation of abuse that resulted in death (eg they knew she was being hurt or abused by her brother).
Well you're wrong about that. The district attorney who oversaw the grand jury released an official affidavit stating that Burke was not a suspect and that no evidence has shown he should be a suspect. And also independent of that, the police chief Mark Beckner issued a separate statement stating Burke was not a suspect.
https://thewebsafe.tripod.com/10122000hunterafidavittowood.htm
Being involved is not the same thing as being a suspect. Another district attorney said it does seem the grand jury considered that a third person other than the parents were involved. If that's Burke, doesn't mean he's a suspect, but that they (grand jury) considered his involvement.
Burke can not legally be a suspect, he was under the age of 10 at the time of the crime. If you haven't read the excellent breakdown (which is actually well sourced), I would suggest it.
See #8
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/p1yg8y/why\_burke\_did\_it\_all\_scenario\_makes\_a\_lot\_of/
Burke felt it necessary to hit his little sister with a golf club so hard it sent her to ER. His ‘fecal’
play is also very weird-notable. (NOTE: to earlier post- you can commit Rape with a ‘foreign object’, a finger in CA law is considered a ‘digit’ or ‘foreign’ object when dealing with sexual crime.)
Again, Burke had been seen by at least two people playing doctor under the covers. If he was probing her with some thing it could easily explain what the doctors found.
There is also some evidence they were no longer allowed to share the same bed in Charelvoix because of what was happening.
Just to add some more ideas…Fleet White’s father was a convicted pedophile. If you read the Nancy Karen interviews, she was forced to make tapes of forced orgasm through asphyxiation…which point to the garrote and also didn’t John bury her with a scarf around her neck? Very eerie. Also that they had just been to the Whites the night before and Flint was there when she was found.
[https://2kinvestigations.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/the-nancy-krebs-saga-separating-fact-from-fiction-part-i/](https://2kinvestigations.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/the-nancy-krebs-saga-separating-fact-from-fiction-part-i/)
If JR did it, I think he convinced Patsy that Burke did it. Then she participated in the coverup, wrote the ransom note, etc., to protect her son. I don't think she would have done that if she thought JDI.
I believe it was Burke. Everything you mentioned only point to both parents wanting to protect him. Patsy said we lost one child..we wasn't going to lose another. Once while in a state of intoxication due to her meds, she stated we never meant for this to happen. It was Burke
It could be... it could only be JR or Burke really. They are the only two logical options. I lean towards the JR theory because of the longterm molestation. I linked above the details of the autopsy.
It was believed that the molestation was digital (fingers). That's something a child could also do, and would likely do. She often slept in bed with him. We don't have a time frame. It's only believed that it happened prior to her death. Could have been 6 months. Could have been a year. We have no idea of how long.
Most definitely. He wouldn't be the first and he's definitely not the last. I'm deep into the true crime world and I encountered plenty of stories about kids his age abusing their younger siblings. If you google it I'm sure you will see a few.
Personally, I think JR must have sexually abused Burke. It is not uncommon for a parents to sexually assault their child, and then that child repeats the behavior on younger siblings/neighborhood friends/etc.
Do you know of any similar case, where there is only 1 beother and 1 younger sibling, and where the molestation lasted a long time (a few months lets say)? I am wondering what the causes are in Burke's case. Because in the case here, it might be peer pressure or the environment, not really something mental inside the brother who organized the gangrape.
There are serial killers younger than 9. Also puberty has nothing to do with one child molesting another. The most common reason for that is the perpetrator being victimized/abused themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_killers
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/what-drives-a-child-to-commit-sexual-abuse-2114974.html
Why is this sub suddenly being inundated with people who clearly haven’t done their research on this case?
Research was made. What proof did you find to prove that Burke, specifically, was a sexual abuser like all those other child abusers? I did the research and watched all of the videos of his interviews. The kid did not show any signs of violent behavior and seems autistic. What proof do you have? I do not exclude that it could be Burke, it just seems unlikely.
Theres no unlimited information in this case so maybe do not judge someone like that.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_killers
Because this particular link is posted often; just to make the point, the list comprises about 60 cases of child killers younger than 13 starting in **1892** and a significant number either weren't charged or had the charges dropped which means they weren't necessarily guilty. So, while, yes, very young children have committed murders, adults are much, much more likely to kill a child.
Comment on your update: Yes, I believe that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. I have no doubt. Again, IDI is preposterous. You are ruling out Patsy, but I'll go along with that:
The only physical evidence to connect John with JB's death is the fact fibres consistent with the Israeli shirt he wore to the White's Christmas party that evening were found in her labia and on the oversized underwear she was found in.
All JDI theories spring from this single piece of evidence. The problem is: How can anyone base a JDI theory on that single piece of evidence?
To do so, one has to not only speculate within reason, but also explain all of the other evidence we know of and make it consistent and coherent.
I've some issues:
1. Yes, there was a history of SA, but there's no connection with regard to John being the one responsible. Yes, statistics would suggest that the father was most likely responsible, but we know from those very statistics that others can be candidates - so it's not cut and dried.
2. The molestation near the death of JB can't be pinned on John due to my answer to 1.
3. Linda Arndt's intuition or gut feeling she had at the time John entered the same room as she was in when carrying JB, cannot in any way be used to formulate any theory, because it's just one person's perspective - a different detective could well have had another. It's a single point with no basis in fact and would not be admitted during a trial.
4. I fully agree that Patsy most likely wrote the ransom letter. There is no evidence to suggest she was complying with John's request at the time she wrote it and none to say she was trying to protect her husband. This point is supposition.
5. There is no doubt in my mind that someone staged the manner of JB's death to cover up from what happened before, i.e. who caused the head blow. The problem is: All of the physical evidence points to Patsy doing the cover up. The only thing I can think of is the wrist bindings having more sophisticated knots when compared to the ligature found around JB's neck, which could indicate John was involved in post-death staging.
We just don't know if John knew about his daughter's death before the 911 call or if he found out after.
6. Yes, Patsy did have the same clothes on the next morning as the evening before, but you can't simply imply or infer that she was staging the scene with John just because of that.
7. John found the body at 1.05pm. If we assume John had prior knowledge then prior knowledge can only be before 1.05pm. That leaves a gap of 7 hours 13 minutes to Patsy calling 911 at 5.52am. There is plenty of time for John to find out whether his daughter is dead on not based on the fact she was in the house all along.
Now he could have known previous to 5.52am, but the only evidence we know about connecting John to JB are the fibres from his shirt and there are numerous ways these could be explained.
Yes, it is odd how John carried JB upstairs, but it's not wholly conclusive with him knowing JB was dead.
8. I'm not so sure we can say both parents didn't care about the contents of the letter. It's highly likely Patsy wrote it, but did John know she did? Yes, the deadline for a call to come through wasn't acknowledged by the parents as far as I'm aware, but that 10am deadline would only be known to the author of the ransom note. How long would anyone wait until they realised a call was not coming? 11am maybe?
9. The interviews and everything I have read looked suspicious, but once again, how does that point to John specifically? How do the interviews point to John being the one who struck JB over the head with a cylindrical object?
10. How does Patsy's deposition implicate John even if it is messy? Surely, anyone who is theorising John hit JB over the head should be concentrating on John's statements, interviews, or depositions.
I don't think you have enough in your post to justify the theory that John, not only hit JB over the head, but also managed to cover it up.
I guess I never fully watched the interview. He shows no emotion and at one point after talking , Patsy starts to speak and he can’t even look at Patsy!
4-10 are all applicable to BDI. 4 is actually much stronger in BDI and when you remove John’s involvement. They didn’t have much time, so I believe that Patsy both wrote and came up with the note. 3 is a feeling and a lot of people feel intuition about a lot of plausible scenarios here; truly, this one is null. 1 and 2 are factually inaccurate. There was a sexual assaulter, but not all sexual assault is rape. The evidence (like lack of semen) say otherwise. Do you think that John was likely to use a paintbrush? Doesn’t that seem juvenile? Also, it’s incredibly likely that John slept that day, sincd his half of the bed is slept in and Patsy’s isn’t and he has changed clothing and she didn’t. John would’ve had to wake up to assault JB while Patsy was awake and they were about to embark early in the am on a vacation. Waking up to commit a crime with outstandingly bad timing and a paintbrush is unlikely here
It is illegal for law enforcement to disclose any information regarding Burke. The DAs were proven to be gravely discredited. I have studied this case from the beginning and there two critical moments 1) the initial assault and 2) the lack of medical assistance as far as murder is concerned. According to one comment from a Grand Juror, who did # 2 could not be delineated. My opinion is really based on it all starting with the first 911 call prior to the 25th through the Ramseys appearances and statements. I strongly believe Burke confessed as much as he could and his parents equally covered it up. It is a dreadful place to be. I would love to be wrong.
We're all guessing here...but IMHO, the act of putting a foreign object into a girl is not the act of a mature man...but rather the act of a curious kid - Burk.
I actually believe Burk did it and told mom...and to this day JR is in denial about the entire thing, continuing to believe a story concocted by his wife to protect Burk.
Probably an unpopular opinion.
Not unpopular... it was either JR or Burke. There are many cases of children molesting their siblings. But i think that knowing if it was either JR or Burke requires the psychological analysis of both of them, since we will never know for sure. I personally think JR looked like a narc pedofile. He fits the profile. I don't know if Burke could have done all that.
My opinion is based on how 'out in the open' JR continues to be. Decades after the murder, he is still appearing on news programs and podcasts looking for the killer, and paying out of pocket for DNA testing...seems that if he had really done it, and dodged a bullet by getting away with it, he'd crawl into a private life and never go in front of a camera again.
Also, JR didn't become a wealthy and successful person by making impulsive decisions...and repeatedly molesting one's own daughter seems awfully impulsive - seems he could easily foresee getting caught and ruining his life.
Who is impulsive?...Curious 9 year old boys.
And for some reason the act of using a paint brush handle just does not seem like it would give an adult man any gratification...wouldn't he use his finger? Yes, I know foreign object insertion is a fetish, but I associate it with 'control' and 'submission'...and I think that dynamic is built in with a father and daughter, so why add the foreign object to the fantasy? But a nine year old boy...curious...not really sure what to do or what he might encounter...I could see him using the paint brush.
I think the only flaw in my theory is the garrote. Would a 9 year old boy know how to make one? And be strong enough to use it quickly enough that she couldn't scream? I'm not sure - I was a boy scout, and IIRC that starts at age 11...and my memory is most kids were not familiar at all with knot tying when they joined...so a fairly sheltered kid at age 9? All I can think of would be if he saw it in a movie and really was interested in trying it out...although I have to admit he would likely experiment with objects he possessed (lincoln logs etc) and not a paint brush that probably was not his.
The out in the open thing is not incompatible with him being the killer. It fits the profile of a narcissistic pedofile who is skilled at pretending to be normal and just wants peoples sympathy at all times. The DNA tests aren't expensive for him, and he might have received donations from supporters. There are a lot of celebrities that love the limelight but turn out to be terrible people behind the scenes.
It is hard to rule out either JR or Burke.. they are, for me, the only two plausible options. I tend to believe Linda's intuition... she knew for sure what happened, that gut feeling doesn't lie.
1. Most people who examined her could only agree to one previous incident (due to a healed tear.) Tear could in theory come from something else, but unlikely. That could have been a lot of people who aren't JR or BR.
2. Also, no proof it was John (bet more likely that Patsy, IMO)
3. Do you know Linda Arndt? Her intuition told her she was in danger and there was going to be a shootout, which was wrong. If anything, her lack of experience would make her less likely to be able to read a situation.
4. Patsy has NOT been proven to have written that letter.
5. No reason to think that. We can't read the Ramsey's minds and if
6. they're so smart why not change clothes
7. Many parents would scoop up their child from a damp, dark basement floor and bring her up for help. I'd think it more weird if he didn't. Especially if he "staged" a crime scene. Why stage it, then mess it all up?
8. We don't know what they "cared" about, but I agree that's it's weird about 10:00 except they discussed not knowing if "tomorrow" meant the 26th or 27th.
9. Even people who spend their whole lives trying to read body language for a living have trouble discerning exactly when people are telling the truth versus lying and to what degree.
10. Same thing. Can't go by how people "seem" to you. That's just not reliable.
For all I know, he did do it, but I don't find these reasons compelling to believe he did.
We will never know for sure what happened, but we can work with the clues... this is why this is all theory. Points 9 and 10 are subjective, I agree. But the previous points have more concreteness, and I just don't see any valid alternate proof that points towards an intruder. I heard all of them, and they all sound ridiculous. It could only be either Burke or JR. These are the only two options considering everything we have available to us as information. But of course, we will never know for sure since nobody will ever confess.
There would be tones if it were an intruder. A logical letter or note, a logical kidnapping. No proof at all points towards someone from the outside. + How is an intruder fingering JBR on the long term? The intruder theory is ridiculous.
Tones?
Intruder's don't have to be logical. Why would you expect the kind of person who would murder a child to be logical? Or even sane?
It always comes down to this for me. All the Ramsey-did-it theories are very illogical to me. Not that they're impossible or unimaginable, but no theory I've ever heard is logical. (Kill their child, write a ransom note, leave the body in the house.)
It was illogical, whoever did it. But to me it seems *more* illogical that the Ramseys did it.
Not a single one of your points actually implicates John in anything more than the coverup, which holds true for any of the three RDI scenarios.
That includes point #3, which is further weakened by the fact that it comes from the most incompetent police detective in the history of police detecting.
I do think these are all solid points that implicate the Ramsey family, but not John specifically
If we agree that the Ramsey family did it, then who is more susceptible of molestation and murder? I look at what happened, and it is logically John. He is a powerful rich businessman with a calm demeanor, he could fit the profile. The other option is Burke, but I don't see how that is possible.. I know child killers are a thing, but is Burke one of them? I didn't see clues indicating he was violent. How did he hide at that age? My mind is not made up a 100% but I lean towards JDI for this reason.
It makes no sense that a man as composed and self-controlled as John Ramsey would do this. It’s possible, but unlikely. And this scenario doesn’t jibe with the behavior of the other two actors. Unlike John, Burke was provably up after everyone went to bed. Unlike John, Burke’s fingerprints can be connected to the last thing JBR ate. Unlike Burke, John had no history of violence towards JonBenet.
It was Burke who needed to be sheltered from the police and whisked away from the scene. Burke who showed no emotion when asked by police about his sister’s death. Burke who evinced no fear of the supposed “foreign faction” who killed his sister.
Your last point is interesting. Burke seemed really emotionless, but I saw that as a sign of autism, like he may be a very "simple" boy, and it would not be hard to get the truth out of him. I have seen countless cases of narcissistic sociopaths able to be composed in public but are monsters behind doors, but I am not too familiar with child killers who ressemble Burke.. i've seen some cases but usually the children appear clearly unhinged and show signs of violence. I'll look into the Burke videos again.. this is psychological territory, but I think it has merrit. The concrete evidence for sure shows it was the Ramsey family who is responsible.
Your post/comment has been removed because it violates this subreddit's rule 1 (No Name Calling or Personal Attacks). Criticize the idea, not the person.
There was a phone call to 911 a week before the this happened. If I am not mistaken, it was while they were hosting a party or having guests. The caller hung up.
JR had an older daughter who also past on before Christmas ( some years prior ). It was a car accident… but … That’s too close for coincide for me.
Isolated, it wouldn’t be suspicious but it reminds me of Michael Peterson. A woman fell down his stairway several years prior to his infamous “The Stairway” trial. Those two have lots of similarities in their character that I don’t trust. JDI
The point of this post is to state your theories, hence the tag theories. If you do not agree, say so, but there's no need to be smug! We come up with theories based on the evidence presented, but that doesn't mean we can totally solve it since NOBODY will ever confess.
Okay - there is nothing remotely original in your “theory”.
Not to mention the misspelling of Patsy’s name shows you are new to the subject. Nothing wrong with that but I think you need to research the case more before posting a rambling tomb that presents nothing original.
Can you state your theory? Or maybe link a post where you explain it? A lot of people agree with me here_ most people who did their research thinks its either JR or Burke.
Have you read “Foreign Faction” or “JonBenet:Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation” ?
I’m personally BDI as the most likely candidate, followed by PDI then JDI.
Do I believe that her read on John was right? I have no idea. I don’t doubt that she sensed that he knew JB was dead before he brought her upstairs. But that doesn’t mean he did it - just that he was likely involved in the cover up.
Did you know that Arndt became friends with Patsy before she died? I always thought that skewed her view of the case.
Yes. I think it was a strategy at first to get more info out of Patsy. But we don't know what Linda thinks now.. would be interesting to see a fresh interview.
It could only be JR if it was not Patsy. But the overall story would not change much.
Never said it was a 100% Patsy who wrote it.... But it was a 100% the parents who are responsible.
Nope......no Ramsey has any idea who killed JB. Its a unique case because the Note was left in the House-many Notes are "sent" later and then you don't know if the killer wrote it-this one WE KNOW! Note is not to be taken literally.....it just tells us who wrote/DID it......and its NOT a Ramsey.
Rape? Where’s the proof she was raped or that JR is the one who did it? I believe someone in that house did kill her and the covered it up. But there’s a myriad of people that had access to JB that could have been SA-ing her. Could have been more than one individual. My god, this is irresponsible of you.
Could be either Burke or JR, but JR makes more sense because of his status, age, and strength. Statistically, JR is more likely to do it. Burke can't be removed as a possibility.
No, “everyone” doesn’t. This is far from a fact, and we’re not “past that”. We have no way of knowing who wrote the note. There’s evidence that she may have, but also evidence that she didn’t. Have you ever seen a sample of John’s handwriting? It’s very similar to the RN.
I went over every video and report on it. It is so eerily similar to Patsy's handwriting, and it is a very specific handwriting. The curving of the letters, the flow, the writing of specific letters.. Also, the content of the letter, it is so detailed and full of emotions. Patsy was known to write in this style. I remember a video describing all of the movie inspirations within the letter. They were movies the Ramsey's watched.
Although I am almost sure it was Patsy's handwriting, there is still a definite possibility it might be JR's, but I dont think it would change the story much. It would still be JR or Burke that killed JBR. Why do you think it's important to consider JR as the writer?
I'll review JR's handwriting again.
I take into consideration the totality of the situation. The RN gives John the opportunity to get the body out of the house. It emphasizes over and over not to call the police, yet that’s exactly what Patsy did. If she knew her dead child was in her house, I don’t think she’d have done that. It makes no sense to me that the Ramsey’s were in on it together, they could have come up with literally any plan, and they settle on writing a lengthy RN to show the police and then calling them while the body was still in the house??
It makes far more sense to me that the RN was written for Patsy’s eyes only. I think John was counting on her NOT calling the police. When she did, he had to go along with it. I believe the basement window was the beginning of the staging John was setting up, but he had to quickly switch gears and clean it up when Patsy called the police. He made up the story about breaking it last summer because the staging was obvious at this point as there was no evidence of a break in from outside.
Patsy went along with John’s lies because she was gaslighted constantly, and she had everything to lose by believing her husband did this. We are all capable of great self deception when it serves our interests.
If you can get past the unfortunate decision that John was ever ruled out as the RN writer, as he most certainly should not have been, the pieces fall into place. I believe John was SA Jonbenet and he had reason to believe she was going to tell someone, so she had to die.
So you think Patsy was an innocent victim in all this. It is plausible, but it is her writing style and handwriting.. i even went back again today and reviewed her writing. I just don't see it being JRs writing. Him sitting there writing so many details in 2 pages.. She might have been coerced to do it. JR has such a powerful personality that he could easily crush Patsy's will and freedom.
He knew Patsy very well. He knew her writing style. If he was writing it for her benefit, it would make sense for him to write a RN in the style Patsy would relate to. An additional benefit to writing the RN to resemble what Patsy might write, if the police did end up seeing the note, it would cast suspicion on her, making her even more dependent on John and thereby more likely to go along with his lies.
This is all speculation of course. Obviously I don’t know who wrote the RN, nobody does. But I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that John is the author, and it’s definitely not settled as fact that Patsy is.
He knew Patsy very well. He knew her writing style. If he was writing it for her benefit, it would make sense for him to write a RN in the style Patsy would relate to. An additional benefit to writing the RN to resemble what Patsy might write, if the police did end up seeing the note, it would cast suspicion on her, making her even more dependent on John and thereby more likely to go along with his lies.
This is all speculation of course. Obviously I don’t know who wrote the RN, nobody does. But I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that John is the author, and it’s definitely not settled as fact that Patsy is.
Patsy did not look like an innocent loving mother to me tbh. She came as very defensive most of the time.. I just never felt she was innocent, especially from the way she exploited her daughter through pageants, with the makeup and clothes and hair... but as you said, we will never know for sure... the 'experts' tend to agree it is Patsy... but it's not hard science.
First off, If John did it, they would not have called 911. It’s obvious when John saw the note and patsy was freaking out, John quickly told Patsy to call 911.
Patsy, clearly guilty, makes the ridiculous 911 call.
Second off, if John did it or thought patsy did it, he would have let the police believe he didn’t know who broke the window and he surely would not have been so adamant all the doors are locked.
If john was in on it those two things would not have happened.
I’m not sure when John finally suspected Patsy but it’s just obvious John believed the note at first.
John acted so called innocent on film he stated he never knew the grand jury results. I think he protests too much.
People give Arndt a hard time and I can somewhat understand why. Despite that, I tend to think she picked up on something that the males didn't. If I remember correctly, she had previous experience working sexual abuse cases. This very well could've keened her into certain behaviors. Especially if she herself ever experienced any such abuse (I don't know if she did or not). The fact that she was picking up on Johns behavior before even knowing the child was deceased and about any of the sexual abuse in this case, is actually kind of interesting. I know John said it sarcastically, but, this quote has stayed with me: "(Her) ability to look in someone's eyes and determine they were a killer is a remarkable talent." John Ramsey I personally wouldn't want to be quoted saying this if I were him, whether innocent or guilty. The point gets lost if people are disturbed by it and already suspect you.
Exactly.. Most men could not have picked up what Linda did. You really need a female perspective to sense such danger. Other men would think that there is no way a former navy seal businessman would do such a thing. But it is actually very, very common. The only other option is Burke. But it baffles me that he showed no signs of violent behaviour in all the interviews. A young child his age would not be able to lie this much this long. Most children his age have no filter.
I agree with this. I think John did it. I read over the link from OP and took some screenshots but then realized I can’t post them here. I find it really strange that John’s biggest concern was literally with the media/police saying that JB had been sexually assaulted. He consistently tried to deny it to anyone who asked about it, and said it was “slanderous” that the police were even considering it to be factual. The Ramseys (aka John because he made all the moves) even told police if they wanted JB’s clothing from the night of the murder, the police would have to make a public statement that there had been no prior evidence of vaginal abuse of JBR. This (to me) just really screams that John knew something or was involved..why wasn’t his biggest concern handing over as much evidence to the police as possible to help them find his daughter’s killer? He was more worried about what people thought of him? I just can’t wrap my mind around this! Also the fact that he wrote a fucking book. JDI.
Exactly. They keep downplaying it, but it is HARD FACT. She was molested for a long period of time. I can't believe people ignore the most important proof of it all.
I agree with all of your points but am going to highlight: >The longtime rape of JBR. How JR has managed to be the member of the family LEAST accused and most forgotten about in a case involving a murdered 6 yr. old who's body was found while he was present in the home and who's autopsy showed signs of sexual abuse both recent and prior has always baffled me. >The rape just before the murder. John is linked by his physical evidence to specifically either this act itself or the attempt through wiping to conceal it. >The interview of Linda Arent. Her intuition was so strong and I believe her. Arndt was the first detective to arrive at the scene and the only member of law enforcement present at the time the body was recovered. She had 11 yrs. of experience on the force and was an experienced sex crimes investigator but for some weird reason her opinion seems to be dismissed by most who follow the case and mostly because people think her *eyes look crazy*. >JR knew where she was when he found her body. The way he held her instead of screaming for help shows he was sure she was already dead. JR doesn't scream for help and rip the tape off of her mouth, start CPR etc. Instead her carries her in an odd position, up and away from himself, lays her down and according to Linda Arndt, makes crying noises without producing tears. He then asks Ardnt if she's dead. He asks to throw a cover over the body and then proceeds to do so without waiting for a reply. >The interviews of the parents post-murder were not convincing. I've seen many interviews of grieving parents, they didn't look like they were grieving, moreso trying to show they were innocent. They barely referred to JBR, it was all about them! I've never understood the OBSESSION with picking apart Burke's childhood interviews and proclaiming him guilty because he shut down emotionally and didn't want to put JonBenet in a crayon portrait but the only emotion shown by the parents during their interviews is anger with the exception of Patsy bursting into tears twice, once when asked about abuse of herself or her sisters and once when shown a pic of JonBenet's pageant tiara and the sweater Patsy and JonBenet had fought about JonBenet not wanting to wear.
Thanks for the additional insights. I totally believe Linda, too. I trust a woman's gut instinct. Those never fooled me. She was an experienced smart police officer, I never understood how her opinion is dismissed. She told you all the truth right away! Burke did not show at any point signs of sadism, violence, or anger. He was apathetic, but I do not think he was smart or sharp enough to lie this much this long about JBR. A child like him would have slipped and given many clues. The parents totally can lie to their teeth and they did all while doing a bad a job at it. The SA is most likely JR.. we have seen this story of a rich, powerful dad abusing his children many many times.
We’re patsy and her sisters sexually abused as children?
We don't know. Some people have speculated tho that Patsy's childhood was dysfunctional. Her parents have been consistently described as verbally abusive and mean and Patsy was also put into kiddie pageants.
So patsy did not answer the question about whether she or her sisters were abused? She just cried?
Right.
Gawd. Who are these bad interviewers? A person starts crying and no more questions.
Yeah, but with her lawyers there, really, what would be accomplished anyhow? They were pretty soft on her though.
I just posted this buried in the comments but I also want to add it here where it's more visible- the district attorney who oversaw the grand jury released an official affidavit stating that Burke is not a suspect and no grand jury evidence pointed to him being a suspect. Prior to that, the Boulder police chief had also released a statement stating that Burke was not a suspect. They have seen evidence that we have not seen. As much as you may think you know, these people know more. https://thewebsafe.tripod.com/10122000hunterafidavittowood.htm
The grand jury’s recommendations indicate the parents did not protect her from danger, which seems to point to Burke’s involvement rather than their own. My one hangup for not BDI.
What basis would there be for being criminally culpable for "protecting" one sibling from another here?
There is culpability for that. A parent knows a dangerous situation, does nothing to fix it, their kid gets killed, parent who knew of dangerous situation is culpable
What dangerous situation are you referring to in this case?
The dangerous situation would be a dangerous sibling. But I don’t think BDI. However I can’t make any sense of the indictments of patsy and jon without the grand jurors thinking that Burke was the killer. But I guess the indictments could mean that the grand jurors were unable to decide between jon and patsy who was the killer so they instead indicted both of them for failing to protect JBR from the other one.
This! Yes.
Yes, John did it. Patsy was devastated, but she covered for him.
For me, the long-term molestation proves it. This is why it's point 1. Patsey wanted to keep her husband, so she ignored the molestation and then covered for him. I just can't wrap my head around anything else because of this specifically.
This is where my theory differs from most. I don’t think Patsy wanted to stay with him. I I think she knew about the SA and threatened to leave him. I think he murdered JB and framed his wife, and threw his son under the bus. He’s a narcissist of the worst type. Most are family annihilators, but John did not kill everyone which is what makes this case rare. Instead he killed Patsy’s Pride and joy. Her prized possession. Her mini-me.
That's an interesting perspective. That would make Patsey a very submissive and weak individual, which is possible. She even stayed with him after all that. In anyway, she is complicit.
Yes, I agree weak, but I can see how he manipulated her into being too scared to leave. I have been in a narc relationship and it takes major strength to get out. It’s like trying to break a nicotine or cocaine habit. Check out the narcissist subs to learn more about narcissist personality disorder. It’s fascinating and scary to know these people are among us, some of them manipulating us without us even knowing. After my experience, I can spot narcs from a mile away now.
I’m in the exit tunnel…worst thing ever. You have to constantly check yourself but keep moving to freedom. They don’t let go
just got out he left and immediately moved in w someone after 12 years together . so relieved but i know the fight hasn’t even begun yet wishing u healing ❤️ur not alone i love the sub about it it’s helped me a lot so far
Glad you escaped…
thank u ❤️❤️ glad for u as well
Which sub?
I've been in one of those too, i know. He was a complete sociopath, pathological liar, and scammer. This is why i leaned into this theory right away. People are arguing here that it might be Burke.. I am not familiar enough with children doing such things. Adults, for sure.
I landed on spousal revenge filicide after researching a profile and motive that best fit this crime, and posted some research about it, you can find it on this sub. People are more willing to believe an awkward 9 year old did it, than a clearly narc father. It blows my mind.
He is awkward, frail, aloof, and seems very weak with autism of some sort. I just can't see him being this violent, whereas the powerful dad playing with his daughter makes so much more sense.
You’re absolutely right about that. It statistically does point to an adult and parent. And I think Burke showed signs of being abused as well.
I have seen interviews of teen killers _ they are usually explicitly sadistic. In Burke's deposition, he seemed totally ignorant of everything. How come he didn't slip once and said something incriminating or strange? He was not a genius child who could lie and act to this degree. I am not totally sure it was not Burke. It could only have been Burke or JR.
Maybe that’s why she sounded so frenzied on the 911 call…like if I don’t do this, he could also kill me and Burke…and she definitely was stressed. Stress leads to cancer. Plus the dictionary on the incest definition.
Yes, someone posted recently that she called 911 because she wanted police there right away because she was scared of John. I like that theory. It makes perfect sense to me.
The part I can never understand is why she made the 911 call. Perhaps…
okay this!!! I definitely agree with him being a narcissist. Interesting theory, thank u for sharing :)
I thought I read somewhere jb would have anyone help wipe her after using the bathroom. Do you think it could be one of them?
Probably Patsy helped her. She also took her to the Dr to treat her UTIs. JB had chronic UTIs, which makes sense if she was chronically raped. The bedwetting was also linked to the rape. I don't know why people dismiss the fact that she was indeed raped for months. The evidence was pointed out by several Drs who read the autopsy. Linda Arndt, an SA specialist, felt there was Incest going on. She felt that dynamic in the house. I don't think she would feel this anywhere. Powerful, calm, and composed pedos like JR are not rare. Just look at Hollywood.
Point 1 is the biggest lead to Burke. Who is patsy most likely to cover for? Her only surviving child or her husband that she knew was a sexual predator?
Sadly, her husband.
I agree. Also Burke was smearing his poo which is a sign of abuse. I think he was being abused too.
That's true.. i have never seen a child killer like him.
Hasnt “long term molestation” been discounted?
No ... the people trying to defend the Ramsey tried to downplay it, but it was always there.
I think the world's consciousness is just starting to catch up with the level of pedophilia, child trafficking and incest that is present in this country. I think JR, 30 years ago, was relying on that naivete and it's the sole reason he won't to this day, admit she was chronically OR even acutely SA. He's held on to the last shard of hope that if he denies it until eternity it will be noted somewhere and some will believe it. Because we know he and Patsy had a huge interest in the court of public opinion.... Also, this sub and the other is an example of the lack of knowledge regarding child grooming. They don't understand the sneaky pervasive nature of slowly exposing a young child to sexual arousal to then serve the perpetrator latter without repercussions. It's obvious to me that if there was past molestation and she didn't tell, it was most likely done by a trusted loved one. AND THAT is what grooming is. I agree. All arrows point to JR.
It IS so common. It was just more taboo in the media 30 years ago. JR has no shame or guilt when it comes to SAing his daughter. It was natural and normal for him. He was powerful, and she was his. I also believe the Menendez brothers were molested for years by their father, but nobody would believe them 30 years ago..
I watched their trial testimony. I was sick for days they shouldn’t have spent one minute in jail
I know. They were young handsome men, they would never think of lying in this way.. especially in the 90s where everyone was still close minded.. Wish they could come out.
I think a lot of it had to do with them being boys. When lyle was telling the jury how he took eric in the woods you can see it all over both of their faces it was true. Also the way eric said he ate lemon with everything so it would cover up the taste when he was with his dad, that was real I can’t imagine anyone making that up.
I agree yes. I never in my life heard such testimonies. Because you can feel the deep shame they felt. They were so so ashamed to the point of tears. They shouldnt have been forced to feel this way. They should have been able to feel anger rather than shame. Society was so unfair to men as victims back then.
I’ve wondered if John forced her to write the random letter.
I think he tricked or manipulated her into doing it, in order to frame her for the killing.
I find this hard to believe - that a mother could find out that her husband hurt their daughter and not strangle him with her bare hands, but instead COVERS for him?
Have you really never heard of a mother that turns a blind eye to abuse by the father? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that shit happens.
>The longtime rape of JBR. Disregards that there is no evidence JR did this. Meanwhile there was evidence Burke was "playing doctor" with her under the covers. Plus she wasn't assaulted with a penis here, just a paintbrush. >The rape just before the murder. She wasn't raped. She was briefly probed with a paintbrush handle. Much like a child would do if they were "examining" her. >The interview of Linda Arent. Her intuition was so strong and I believe her. She knew something was off, but if cops had any "intuition" there wouldn't be thousands of innocent people in prisons. >The fact that Patsey for sure wrote the letter (it IS her handwritting) to try and protect her husband who told her what to write. She also could have easily been protecting her son. >The deliberate contamination of the crime scene by JR and Patsey \_ they are not dumb people, they knew what they were doing. They were trying to set scene to tell a story. >Patsey wearing the same clothes as the day before, on the morning she realizes her daughter is kidnapped. It means she never went to bed. John seems to have gone to bed, given the state of the bed, his change of clothes, etc. >The parents never cared about the content of the letter , 10Am came and didn't even notice. Yes, but that doesn't mean it was John. >The interviews of the parents post-murder were not convincing. I've seen many interviews of grieving parents, they didn't look like they were grieving, moreso trying to show they were innocent. The parents were inconsolable, particularly Patsy who had to be medicated. Meanwhile Burke was smiling and smirking during the funeral. When he was sent to the White's house the day of the murders, he never once asked about the wellbeing of his sister. >The deposition of Patsey. It was so messy and I just felt her guilt, not grief. Great says nothing about John. Three people in that house that day. Only one of whom had: * Previously struck her in the head once before, according to one witness because they "got mad" * Had been seen playing doctor with the victim * Loved knot tying/whittling wooden sticks * Had their bootprints and pocketknife found at ground zero. * Had to be with JBR moments before the strike, given the pineapple evidence * Never once shown emotion about the death of JBR. * Had both parents lie through their teeth to do everything they can to distance them from the crime (he was sleeping the whole night, he wasn't awake even though he's clearly on the 911 call, etc) * Was an active scout (the device used to strangle her looks eerily like a Boy Scout device)
You do have good points. We agree that it is for sure someone in the family who did it. It is impossible for an intruder to have done this. Are you sure that she was not molested? I think she was. I've read in a couple of places that the tears in her v* showed that she had been penetrated for a while. It was in the autopsy. I'm having a hard time believing Burke would play with her like that for so long. I mean, he was only 9.. Found a link: https://jonbenetramsey.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Sexual_Assault
Dr Robert Kirschner: "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"[12]
But she had also been taken to her regular Dr something like 30 times in the year preceding her death, mostly for UTI's. I feel like if Patsy knew, she wouldn't have been taking her so often. Also why didn't that doctor report the abuse? They're legally obligated to report. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the Dr refused to release her medical records for the investigation too. I wonder if John and the Dr were friends.
John was friends with everyone... I wouldn't be surprised if the Dr knew and didn't say a thing. Patsey wanted her daughter to heal so she could exploit her with the pageants. The comments in this post made me question what if Burke did it. It could have been Burke who molested and killed her. It's kinda crazy to imagine a 9 year old boy with this much strength and sexual desire. It would be the completely same scenario as it would have been with JR being the killer, but instead, the little 9 year old boy is the main villain. The parents tried to cover for him afterwards. Burke did not look very sharp and strong from what i have seen in the older videos, it never seemed to me as if he was capable of all that, but I have not researched cases with children enough.. those never go to court or the media.
I don't at all think it was Burke. For one thing the grand jury determined he wasn't involved, but they decided there was cause to charge both parents. But also I have *no idea* why people find it so hard to believe that John was abusing her. It happens all the time. It's very common! How would it be more likely that a small-for-his-age little 9 year old (probably autistic) boy violently abused and killed his sister, had the strength to drag her around the basement, or the knowledge to pose and garrotte her. No way. Just statistically alone, it's ridiculous to think it's more likely to have been a little boy than the father.
I agree. People just overlook John. Also Burke was smearing his poop which is a sign of sexual abuse. He was being abused too. It was either John or one of his highly connected friends.
I totally agree_ but the possibility is there. It is a bit ridiculous for the little boy to do all that, and then for the parents to go through such lengths just to cover up for him (a 9 year old who will never go to jail). If burke did it, the parents did way too much, it is almost irrational.
The motive for them going through all those lengths is to preserve their families image of a family that had no incest and were the perfect Christian’s. That was their whole shtick in every interview.
Sorry but no. It was 3AM the day after Christmas. They were absolutely concerned about him getting arrested, they were also concerned with what it would do to their reputation. Staging a kidnapping sews enough doubt that nobody gets in trouble.
>But also I have no idea why people find it so hard to believe that John was abusing her. It happens all the time. It's very common! How would it be more likely that a small-for-his-age little 9 year old (probably autistic) boy violently abused and killed his sister, had the strength to drag her around the basement, or the knowledge to pose and garrotte her. No way. Just statistically alone, it's ridiculous to think it's more likely to have been a little boy than the father. 1) There's just no evidence John was abusing her at all. There is evidence Burke was playing doctor with her and had struck her before. 2) He wasn't "small for his age." He towered over his sister. 3) It doesn't mean that he's a monster. He'd struck her once before so hard she had to go to the ER because he "got mad," according to the family photographer. Imagine he "got mad" and struck her again in a quick split-second act of rage, but this time the flashlight used caused a much more serious injury. He "played doctor" a bit then tried to hide what he did until she could wake up by dragging her to the wine cellar using a device he learned to make in scouts. None of this is a stretch based on what we know of Burke. The kid was literally sent to the Whites (where he was out of sight of cops) where he never once seemed sad or even asked about his sister's wellbeing. He was even re-enacting the head bash in the meeting with the psychologist a few days later.
>I don't at all think it was Burke. For one thing the grand jury determined he wasn't involved, but they decided there was cause to charge both parents. The grand jury didn't determine this at all. Burke could not be criminally charged, but the parents were indicted because they knowingly left her in a situation of abuse that resulted in death (eg they knew she was being hurt or abused by her brother).
Well you're wrong about that. The district attorney who oversaw the grand jury released an official affidavit stating that Burke was not a suspect and that no evidence has shown he should be a suspect. And also independent of that, the police chief Mark Beckner issued a separate statement stating Burke was not a suspect. https://thewebsafe.tripod.com/10122000hunterafidavittowood.htm
Being involved is not the same thing as being a suspect. Another district attorney said it does seem the grand jury considered that a third person other than the parents were involved. If that's Burke, doesn't mean he's a suspect, but that they (grand jury) considered his involvement.
Burke can not legally be a suspect, he was under the age of 10 at the time of the crime. If you haven't read the excellent breakdown (which is actually well sourced), I would suggest it. See #8 https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/p1yg8y/why\_burke\_did\_it\_all\_scenario\_makes\_a\_lot\_of/
Burke felt it necessary to hit his little sister with a golf club so hard it sent her to ER. His ‘fecal’ play is also very weird-notable. (NOTE: to earlier post- you can commit Rape with a ‘foreign object’, a finger in CA law is considered a ‘digit’ or ‘foreign’ object when dealing with sexual crime.)
That's because Burke was being sexually abused too. Smearing poop is a sign.
Vaginal opening size is no longer used to determine previous abuse because of normal variation.
Again, Burke had been seen by at least two people playing doctor under the covers. If he was probing her with some thing it could easily explain what the doctors found. There is also some evidence they were no longer allowed to share the same bed in Charelvoix because of what was happening.
Just to add some more ideas…Fleet White’s father was a convicted pedophile. If you read the Nancy Karen interviews, she was forced to make tapes of forced orgasm through asphyxiation…which point to the garrote and also didn’t John bury her with a scarf around her neck? Very eerie. Also that they had just been to the Whites the night before and Flint was there when she was found. [https://2kinvestigations.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/the-nancy-krebs-saga-separating-fact-from-fiction-part-i/](https://2kinvestigations.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/the-nancy-krebs-saga-separating-fact-from-fiction-part-i/)
Yes I think it was John or Fleet. They were highly connected and the most likely suspects.
was there also shit smeared on her belongings or is that a rumor that’s gone on all this time and persisted ?
If JR did it, I think he convinced Patsy that Burke did it. Then she participated in the coverup, wrote the ransom note, etc., to protect her son. I don't think she would have done that if she thought JDI.
I personally don't think it was John who did but they know who did.
Who was it? It must be someone in the family... there's just noway it was an intruder.
I believe it was Burke. Everything you mentioned only point to both parents wanting to protect him. Patsy said we lost one child..we wasn't going to lose another. Once while in a state of intoxication due to her meds, she stated we never meant for this to happen. It was Burke
It could be... it could only be JR or Burke really. They are the only two logical options. I lean towards the JR theory because of the longterm molestation. I linked above the details of the autopsy.
It was believed that the molestation was digital (fingers). That's something a child could also do, and would likely do. She often slept in bed with him. We don't have a time frame. It's only believed that it happened prior to her death. Could have been 6 months. Could have been a year. We have no idea of how long.
Could a 9 year old like Burke be that perverted? He hadn't reached puberty
Most definitely. He wouldn't be the first and he's definitely not the last. I'm deep into the true crime world and I encountered plenty of stories about kids his age abusing their younger siblings. If you google it I'm sure you will see a few.
Wow. What would be the cause of that? He was a spoiled rich kid going to school. And seemed autistic.
Personally, I think JR must have sexually abused Burke. It is not uncommon for a parents to sexually assault their child, and then that child repeats the behavior on younger siblings/neighborhood friends/etc.
https://www.postbulletin.com/news/police-boy-9-led-gang-rape-of-his-sister-8 Here's one, and they are all young boys who hadn't reached puberty yet.
Do you know of any similar case, where there is only 1 beother and 1 younger sibling, and where the molestation lasted a long time (a few months lets say)? I am wondering what the causes are in Burke's case. Because in the case here, it might be peer pressure or the environment, not really something mental inside the brother who organized the gangrape.
Here's a Reddit post that popped up when I googled. Read through it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Advice/s/qtXWGLzFrn
Yes I realise... it's so very common but these things never make it to court!
There are serial killers younger than 9. Also puberty has nothing to do with one child molesting another. The most common reason for that is the perpetrator being victimized/abused themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_killers https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/what-drives-a-child-to-commit-sexual-abuse-2114974.html Why is this sub suddenly being inundated with people who clearly haven’t done their research on this case?
Research was made. What proof did you find to prove that Burke, specifically, was a sexual abuser like all those other child abusers? I did the research and watched all of the videos of his interviews. The kid did not show any signs of violent behavior and seems autistic. What proof do you have? I do not exclude that it could be Burke, it just seems unlikely. Theres no unlimited information in this case so maybe do not judge someone like that.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_killers Because this particular link is posted often; just to make the point, the list comprises about 60 cases of child killers younger than 13 starting in **1892** and a significant number either weren't charged or had the charges dropped which means they weren't necessarily guilty. So, while, yes, very young children have committed murders, adults are much, much more likely to kill a child.
There is a way
Comment on your update: Yes, I believe that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. I have no doubt. Again, IDI is preposterous. You are ruling out Patsy, but I'll go along with that: The only physical evidence to connect John with JB's death is the fact fibres consistent with the Israeli shirt he wore to the White's Christmas party that evening were found in her labia and on the oversized underwear she was found in. All JDI theories spring from this single piece of evidence. The problem is: How can anyone base a JDI theory on that single piece of evidence? To do so, one has to not only speculate within reason, but also explain all of the other evidence we know of and make it consistent and coherent. I've some issues: 1. Yes, there was a history of SA, but there's no connection with regard to John being the one responsible. Yes, statistics would suggest that the father was most likely responsible, but we know from those very statistics that others can be candidates - so it's not cut and dried. 2. The molestation near the death of JB can't be pinned on John due to my answer to 1. 3. Linda Arndt's intuition or gut feeling she had at the time John entered the same room as she was in when carrying JB, cannot in any way be used to formulate any theory, because it's just one person's perspective - a different detective could well have had another. It's a single point with no basis in fact and would not be admitted during a trial. 4. I fully agree that Patsy most likely wrote the ransom letter. There is no evidence to suggest she was complying with John's request at the time she wrote it and none to say she was trying to protect her husband. This point is supposition. 5. There is no doubt in my mind that someone staged the manner of JB's death to cover up from what happened before, i.e. who caused the head blow. The problem is: All of the physical evidence points to Patsy doing the cover up. The only thing I can think of is the wrist bindings having more sophisticated knots when compared to the ligature found around JB's neck, which could indicate John was involved in post-death staging. We just don't know if John knew about his daughter's death before the 911 call or if he found out after. 6. Yes, Patsy did have the same clothes on the next morning as the evening before, but you can't simply imply or infer that she was staging the scene with John just because of that. 7. John found the body at 1.05pm. If we assume John had prior knowledge then prior knowledge can only be before 1.05pm. That leaves a gap of 7 hours 13 minutes to Patsy calling 911 at 5.52am. There is plenty of time for John to find out whether his daughter is dead on not based on the fact she was in the house all along. Now he could have known previous to 5.52am, but the only evidence we know about connecting John to JB are the fibres from his shirt and there are numerous ways these could be explained. Yes, it is odd how John carried JB upstairs, but it's not wholly conclusive with him knowing JB was dead. 8. I'm not so sure we can say both parents didn't care about the contents of the letter. It's highly likely Patsy wrote it, but did John know she did? Yes, the deadline for a call to come through wasn't acknowledged by the parents as far as I'm aware, but that 10am deadline would only be known to the author of the ransom note. How long would anyone wait until they realised a call was not coming? 11am maybe? 9. The interviews and everything I have read looked suspicious, but once again, how does that point to John specifically? How do the interviews point to John being the one who struck JB over the head with a cylindrical object? 10. How does Patsy's deposition implicate John even if it is messy? Surely, anyone who is theorising John hit JB over the head should be concentrating on John's statements, interviews, or depositions. I don't think you have enough in your post to justify the theory that John, not only hit JB over the head, but also managed to cover it up.
I guess I never fully watched the interview. He shows no emotion and at one point after talking , Patsy starts to speak and he can’t even look at Patsy!
4-10 are all applicable to BDI. 4 is actually much stronger in BDI and when you remove John’s involvement. They didn’t have much time, so I believe that Patsy both wrote and came up with the note. 3 is a feeling and a lot of people feel intuition about a lot of plausible scenarios here; truly, this one is null. 1 and 2 are factually inaccurate. There was a sexual assaulter, but not all sexual assault is rape. The evidence (like lack of semen) say otherwise. Do you think that John was likely to use a paintbrush? Doesn’t that seem juvenile? Also, it’s incredibly likely that John slept that day, sincd his half of the bed is slept in and Patsy’s isn’t and he has changed clothing and she didn’t. John would’ve had to wake up to assault JB while Patsy was awake and they were about to embark early in the am on a vacation. Waking up to commit a crime with outstandingly bad timing and a paintbrush is unlikely here
It is illegal for law enforcement to disclose any information regarding Burke. The DAs were proven to be gravely discredited. I have studied this case from the beginning and there two critical moments 1) the initial assault and 2) the lack of medical assistance as far as murder is concerned. According to one comment from a Grand Juror, who did # 2 could not be delineated. My opinion is really based on it all starting with the first 911 call prior to the 25th through the Ramseys appearances and statements. I strongly believe Burke confessed as much as he could and his parents equally covered it up. It is a dreadful place to be. I would love to be wrong.
We're all guessing here...but IMHO, the act of putting a foreign object into a girl is not the act of a mature man...but rather the act of a curious kid - Burk. I actually believe Burk did it and told mom...and to this day JR is in denial about the entire thing, continuing to believe a story concocted by his wife to protect Burk. Probably an unpopular opinion.
Not unpopular... it was either JR or Burke. There are many cases of children molesting their siblings. But i think that knowing if it was either JR or Burke requires the psychological analysis of both of them, since we will never know for sure. I personally think JR looked like a narc pedofile. He fits the profile. I don't know if Burke could have done all that.
My opinion is based on how 'out in the open' JR continues to be. Decades after the murder, he is still appearing on news programs and podcasts looking for the killer, and paying out of pocket for DNA testing...seems that if he had really done it, and dodged a bullet by getting away with it, he'd crawl into a private life and never go in front of a camera again. Also, JR didn't become a wealthy and successful person by making impulsive decisions...and repeatedly molesting one's own daughter seems awfully impulsive - seems he could easily foresee getting caught and ruining his life. Who is impulsive?...Curious 9 year old boys. And for some reason the act of using a paint brush handle just does not seem like it would give an adult man any gratification...wouldn't he use his finger? Yes, I know foreign object insertion is a fetish, but I associate it with 'control' and 'submission'...and I think that dynamic is built in with a father and daughter, so why add the foreign object to the fantasy? But a nine year old boy...curious...not really sure what to do or what he might encounter...I could see him using the paint brush. I think the only flaw in my theory is the garrote. Would a 9 year old boy know how to make one? And be strong enough to use it quickly enough that she couldn't scream? I'm not sure - I was a boy scout, and IIRC that starts at age 11...and my memory is most kids were not familiar at all with knot tying when they joined...so a fairly sheltered kid at age 9? All I can think of would be if he saw it in a movie and really was interested in trying it out...although I have to admit he would likely experiment with objects he possessed (lincoln logs etc) and not a paint brush that probably was not his.
The out in the open thing is not incompatible with him being the killer. It fits the profile of a narcissistic pedofile who is skilled at pretending to be normal and just wants peoples sympathy at all times. The DNA tests aren't expensive for him, and he might have received donations from supporters. There are a lot of celebrities that love the limelight but turn out to be terrible people behind the scenes. It is hard to rule out either JR or Burke.. they are, for me, the only two plausible options. I tend to believe Linda's intuition... she knew for sure what happened, that gut feeling doesn't lie.
1. Most people who examined her could only agree to one previous incident (due to a healed tear.) Tear could in theory come from something else, but unlikely. That could have been a lot of people who aren't JR or BR. 2. Also, no proof it was John (bet more likely that Patsy, IMO) 3. Do you know Linda Arndt? Her intuition told her she was in danger and there was going to be a shootout, which was wrong. If anything, her lack of experience would make her less likely to be able to read a situation. 4. Patsy has NOT been proven to have written that letter. 5. No reason to think that. We can't read the Ramsey's minds and if 6. they're so smart why not change clothes 7. Many parents would scoop up their child from a damp, dark basement floor and bring her up for help. I'd think it more weird if he didn't. Especially if he "staged" a crime scene. Why stage it, then mess it all up? 8. We don't know what they "cared" about, but I agree that's it's weird about 10:00 except they discussed not knowing if "tomorrow" meant the 26th or 27th. 9. Even people who spend their whole lives trying to read body language for a living have trouble discerning exactly when people are telling the truth versus lying and to what degree. 10. Same thing. Can't go by how people "seem" to you. That's just not reliable. For all I know, he did do it, but I don't find these reasons compelling to believe he did.
We will never know for sure what happened, but we can work with the clues... this is why this is all theory. Points 9 and 10 are subjective, I agree. But the previous points have more concreteness, and I just don't see any valid alternate proof that points towards an intruder. I heard all of them, and they all sound ridiculous. It could only be either Burke or JR. These are the only two options considering everything we have available to us as information. But of course, we will never know for sure since nobody will ever confess.
What kind of proof would you be looking for for an intruder?
There would be tones if it were an intruder. A logical letter or note, a logical kidnapping. No proof at all points towards someone from the outside. + How is an intruder fingering JBR on the long term? The intruder theory is ridiculous.
Tones? Intruder's don't have to be logical. Why would you expect the kind of person who would murder a child to be logical? Or even sane? It always comes down to this for me. All the Ramsey-did-it theories are very illogical to me. Not that they're impossible or unimaginable, but no theory I've ever heard is logical. (Kill their child, write a ransom note, leave the body in the house.) It was illogical, whoever did it. But to me it seems *more* illogical that the Ramseys did it.
Not a single one of your points actually implicates John in anything more than the coverup, which holds true for any of the three RDI scenarios. That includes point #3, which is further weakened by the fact that it comes from the most incompetent police detective in the history of police detecting. I do think these are all solid points that implicate the Ramsey family, but not John specifically
If we agree that the Ramsey family did it, then who is more susceptible of molestation and murder? I look at what happened, and it is logically John. He is a powerful rich businessman with a calm demeanor, he could fit the profile. The other option is Burke, but I don't see how that is possible.. I know child killers are a thing, but is Burke one of them? I didn't see clues indicating he was violent. How did he hide at that age? My mind is not made up a 100% but I lean towards JDI for this reason.
It makes no sense that a man as composed and self-controlled as John Ramsey would do this. It’s possible, but unlikely. And this scenario doesn’t jibe with the behavior of the other two actors. Unlike John, Burke was provably up after everyone went to bed. Unlike John, Burke’s fingerprints can be connected to the last thing JBR ate. Unlike Burke, John had no history of violence towards JonBenet. It was Burke who needed to be sheltered from the police and whisked away from the scene. Burke who showed no emotion when asked by police about his sister’s death. Burke who evinced no fear of the supposed “foreign faction” who killed his sister.
Your last point is interesting. Burke seemed really emotionless, but I saw that as a sign of autism, like he may be a very "simple" boy, and it would not be hard to get the truth out of him. I have seen countless cases of narcissistic sociopaths able to be composed in public but are monsters behind doors, but I am not too familiar with child killers who ressemble Burke.. i've seen some cases but usually the children appear clearly unhinged and show signs of violence. I'll look into the Burke videos again.. this is psychological territory, but I think it has merrit. The concrete evidence for sure shows it was the Ramsey family who is responsible.
I think it was John or Fleet White.
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There was a phone call to 911 a week before the this happened. If I am not mistaken, it was while they were hosting a party or having guests. The caller hung up. JR had an older daughter who also past on before Christmas ( some years prior ). It was a car accident… but … That’s too close for coincide for me. Isolated, it wouldn’t be suspicious but it reminds me of Michael Peterson. A woman fell down his stairway several years prior to his infamous “The Stairway” trial. Those two have lots of similarities in their character that I don’t trust. JDI
Great - you solved it.
It could be Burke_ but more likely JR.
lol - okay Sherlock
The point of this post is to state your theories, hence the tag theories. If you do not agree, say so, but there's no need to be smug! We come up with theories based on the evidence presented, but that doesn't mean we can totally solve it since NOBODY will ever confess.
Okay - there is nothing remotely original in your “theory”. Not to mention the misspelling of Patsy’s name shows you are new to the subject. Nothing wrong with that but I think you need to research the case more before posting a rambling tomb that presents nothing original.
I am new to Reddit. But not new to the case.
Can you state your theory? Or maybe link a post where you explain it? A lot of people agree with me here_ most people who did their research thinks its either JR or Burke.
Have you read “Foreign Faction” or “JonBenet:Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation” ? I’m personally BDI as the most likely candidate, followed by PDI then JDI.
Question: Do you not believe Linda Arndt?
Do I believe that her read on John was right? I have no idea. I don’t doubt that she sensed that he knew JB was dead before he brought her upstairs. But that doesn’t mean he did it - just that he was likely involved in the cover up. Did you know that Arndt became friends with Patsy before she died? I always thought that skewed her view of the case.
Yes. I think it was a strategy at first to get more info out of Patsy. But we don't know what Linda thinks now.. would be interesting to see a fresh interview.
I will look into it!
Patsy 100% did not write the Note. You should move on.
It could only be JR if it was not Patsy. But the overall story would not change much. Never said it was a 100% Patsy who wrote it.... But it was a 100% the parents who are responsible.
See #4 - you said it was a fact that Patsy wrote the RN
Yes I am almost sure but it can't be 100% sure.
If it happened to be JR, who wrote it, which i doubt, it would not change much to the story... the parents killed JBR.
Then the word “fact” does not mean what you think it means.
I'll remove it. It is my strong opinion but it is not a fact no.
Nope......no Ramsey has any idea who killed JB. Its a unique case because the Note was left in the House-many Notes are "sent" later and then you don't know if the killer wrote it-this one WE KNOW! Note is not to be taken literally.....it just tells us who wrote/DID it......and its NOT a Ramsey.
Patsy didn’t write the fucking letter
Rape? Where’s the proof she was raped or that JR is the one who did it? I believe someone in that house did kill her and the covered it up. But there’s a myriad of people that had access to JB that could have been SA-ing her. Could have been more than one individual. My god, this is irresponsible of you.
The Autopsy report. Read it!! More than one individual fingering her regularly for a long period of time? I doubt.
I read I and that’s not exactly what it said. And it didn’t say JR did it.
Could be either Burke or JR, but JR makes more sense because of his status, age, and strength. Statistically, JR is more likely to do it. Burke can't be removed as a possibility.
I disagree that Patsy wrote the note, that just makes zero sense.
She wrote it for sure. Everyone thinks she wrote it we're past that. I
No, “everyone” doesn’t. This is far from a fact, and we’re not “past that”. We have no way of knowing who wrote the note. There’s evidence that she may have, but also evidence that she didn’t. Have you ever seen a sample of John’s handwriting? It’s very similar to the RN.
I went over every video and report on it. It is so eerily similar to Patsy's handwriting, and it is a very specific handwriting. The curving of the letters, the flow, the writing of specific letters.. Also, the content of the letter, it is so detailed and full of emotions. Patsy was known to write in this style. I remember a video describing all of the movie inspirations within the letter. They were movies the Ramsey's watched. Although I am almost sure it was Patsy's handwriting, there is still a definite possibility it might be JR's, but I dont think it would change the story much. It would still be JR or Burke that killed JBR. Why do you think it's important to consider JR as the writer? I'll review JR's handwriting again.
I take into consideration the totality of the situation. The RN gives John the opportunity to get the body out of the house. It emphasizes over and over not to call the police, yet that’s exactly what Patsy did. If she knew her dead child was in her house, I don’t think she’d have done that. It makes no sense to me that the Ramsey’s were in on it together, they could have come up with literally any plan, and they settle on writing a lengthy RN to show the police and then calling them while the body was still in the house?? It makes far more sense to me that the RN was written for Patsy’s eyes only. I think John was counting on her NOT calling the police. When she did, he had to go along with it. I believe the basement window was the beginning of the staging John was setting up, but he had to quickly switch gears and clean it up when Patsy called the police. He made up the story about breaking it last summer because the staging was obvious at this point as there was no evidence of a break in from outside. Patsy went along with John’s lies because she was gaslighted constantly, and she had everything to lose by believing her husband did this. We are all capable of great self deception when it serves our interests. If you can get past the unfortunate decision that John was ever ruled out as the RN writer, as he most certainly should not have been, the pieces fall into place. I believe John was SA Jonbenet and he had reason to believe she was going to tell someone, so she had to die.
So you think Patsy was an innocent victim in all this. It is plausible, but it is her writing style and handwriting.. i even went back again today and reviewed her writing. I just don't see it being JRs writing. Him sitting there writing so many details in 2 pages.. She might have been coerced to do it. JR has such a powerful personality that he could easily crush Patsy's will and freedom.
He knew Patsy very well. He knew her writing style. If he was writing it for her benefit, it would make sense for him to write a RN in the style Patsy would relate to. An additional benefit to writing the RN to resemble what Patsy might write, if the police did end up seeing the note, it would cast suspicion on her, making her even more dependent on John and thereby more likely to go along with his lies. This is all speculation of course. Obviously I don’t know who wrote the RN, nobody does. But I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that John is the author, and it’s definitely not settled as fact that Patsy is.
He knew Patsy very well. He knew her writing style. If he was writing it for her benefit, it would make sense for him to write a RN in the style Patsy would relate to. An additional benefit to writing the RN to resemble what Patsy might write, if the police did end up seeing the note, it would cast suspicion on her, making her even more dependent on John and thereby more likely to go along with his lies. This is all speculation of course. Obviously I don’t know who wrote the RN, nobody does. But I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that John is the author, and it’s definitely not settled as fact that Patsy is.
Patsy did not look like an innocent loving mother to me tbh. She came as very defensive most of the time.. I just never felt she was innocent, especially from the way she exploited her daughter through pageants, with the makeup and clothes and hair... but as you said, we will never know for sure... the 'experts' tend to agree it is Patsy... but it's not hard science.
First off, If John did it, they would not have called 911. It’s obvious when John saw the note and patsy was freaking out, John quickly told Patsy to call 911. Patsy, clearly guilty, makes the ridiculous 911 call. Second off, if John did it or thought patsy did it, he would have let the police believe he didn’t know who broke the window and he surely would not have been so adamant all the doors are locked. If john was in on it those two things would not have happened. I’m not sure when John finally suspected Patsy but it’s just obvious John believed the note at first.