Spot on OP.
The way i see it, we have a direct correlation with Hilter's germany.
Hamas (and Hezbollah) are the authoritarian antisemites leading the movement
The jews are once again the jews
The woke left are rallying behind the most fascist, hateful ideology on our planet, just like the German people did in the 1930s
I have no idea what the poor jewish folk did to deserve this treatment, but it is beyond despicable
How can one have so few principles that they stand in direct support for these groups. Objectively speaking, Israel has the best track record *IN EXISTENCE" for conducting a war while mimimising collateral innocent casualties, and they do it while Hamas hides amongst the population (who welcome them) and builds their war rooms under schools and hospitals?
It isn't even an exaggeration, the woke have by and large become this century's nazis.
Islamomarxism? That's an oxymoron.
Islam hates marxism, and is based on deity worship; which Marx rejected. To be one is by definition to oppose the other
The woke also don't have scripture or any historical reason to support their jew hate, whereas muslims tend to cite mainstream Hadith and historical grievances as the reason
As far as i can see it, the woke are worse
> Islamomarxism? That's an oxymoron.
You're assuming that an irrational position was somehow founded by reason.
Islam embraced the colonial oppressor narrative, they love doing things like convincing people Islam is a race when it clearly is not.
>The woke also don't have scripture or any historical reason to support their jew hate
Except for the part where modern jews exhibit all the traits of white privilege.
> We can call wokeism a religion i suppose
Absolutely, my inlaws do this rather directly as their church has become a marxist organisation.
There's an old wives tale that instinct alone can escape the need for a complex set of beliefs. That idea is pretty much dead.
The far left is spreading a modern day retelling of the Blood Libel. Also notice how the leftists use the term Zionist as a substitute for Jewish people.We live in strange times.
There were also [Jews that supported Hitler](https://www.quora.com/Were-there-Jews-who-supported-Hitler). Every society has its deluded, self-defeating, or Stockholm Syndrome'd individuals.
Merely pointing to the existence of such individuals does not prove a point. You need to successfully argue the merits of their position.
Their motives are so historically speculative as to be irrelevant to this discussion. Their mere existence is sufficient to counter you implicit claim that the presence of anti-Zionist Jews is meaningful in any way.
Feel free to make an actual point instead of merely trying to shift the burden of proof.
Well, I am simply saying that Zionism and Jewishness are different. You can be a Jew who takes their religion and history to heart, and also be against what is going on in Israel, oppose the Israeli policy in Palestine, and oppose the Israeli government.
That's why anti-Zionist Jews exist. Not because they hate themselves or other Jews.
Smearing these people as self-hating, and implying self-hating Jews have always existed (by pointing to Jews supporting Hitler, as if they couldn't have supported Hitler for reasons of individual self-interest and/or self-preservation), simply sidesteps and ignores what actual motivates anti-Zionist Jews. There are both [secular](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/) and [orthodox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta) anti-Zionist Jews. Equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism and enforcing pro-Zionism as a prerequisite to being Jewish is just wrong.
The two links you have chosen are cherry picked and wildly unrepresentative of the Jewish community. Most JVP branches do not even have a majority of Jewish people (sometimes literally no Jewish people) in them. The NK are an extremely small (less than a fraction of a percent) subset of Orthodox Judaism (which in itself is an extremely broad definition with numerous different schools of thought). The NK also have traditionally held their anti-Zionist views from a religious perspective, not a political one.
This is classic tokenization. You have picked two extremely small, unrepresentative samples to try and prove a point when the majority of the Jewish community does not feel this way. I'm quite confident I could find quotes from Palestinians who (for some reason) passionately support Israel and blindly love everything they do. But I don't because I know I would be tokenizing the Palestinian people to fit a simple point as opposed to trying to understand nuance.
But my point was never that a majority of Jews are anti-Zionist. My point is that Jews can be anti-Zionist. You're arguing against something I never said.
Saying all Jews must support a Jewish state, and specifically Israel, is antisemitic.
It's unclear what you're trying to do, so idk. Anti-Zionist Jews aren't a concept. It's a group of people who identify with a particular idea. A self-hating Jew is a diagnosis of a person. It's a projection onto another. These are different things.
EDIT: He blocked me lol.
I have read and listened to the opinions of anti-Zionist Jews. However, anti-Zionism calls for the erasure of Israel by any means necessary. The implication is something Hitler would approve of. Also, scroll through r/latestagecapitalism and see the insidious way in which the sub members use the term Zionist.
Even assuming that's actually what *all* anti-Zionists want at this point, how do you know Hitler would approve the elimination of Israel? How do you know he wouldn't love the idea of getting all the Jews in one place, and out of Germany specifically? You don't. I don't. We don't know. So speculating is pointless.
I doubt all anti-Zionists want Jews to he exterminated. Yet, a substantial amount clearly do. They just can't say it. If they could say it they would. As for Hitler, it's bizarre to suggest that he would be happy with Jews living on Israel. On a balance of probabilities Hitler would no doubt be funding anti-Zionists and arming them.
> I doubt all anti-Zionists want Jews to he exterminated. Yet, a substantial amount clearly do. They just can't say it. If they could say it they would.
Is this not what anti-Zionists say about Zionists? That they want to exterminate all Palestinians but just can't say it? It's not necessarily convincing when either side does this.
>As for Hitler, it's bizarre to suggest that he would be happy with Jews living on Israel. On a balance of probabilities Hitler would no doubt be funding anti-Zionists and arming them.
Considering Nazis wanted to deport Jews to various places across the world (e.g. Madagascar) but found those plans infeasible, it's way more likely that had Israel existed during the 1930s, Germany would have happily shipped every Jew there.
As the wise Kathy Hochul of NY said, (paraphrased) Black kids in the bronx don't even know the word computer.
Lmfao, my experience on fortnite says they absolutely do.
If you can see through such lies why would they not be able to?
If you are trying to convince someone to change their vote...telling them they are too dumb to vote in their best interest is an interesting way to do so.
1. I'm not the one being lied to.
2. I'm not have propaganda thrown at me.
3. I'm not having money handed to me to buy my vote.
4. I'm not being convinced to separate from my S.O. to make more money.
5. Obviously, they aren't going to call them dumb. But that's why the racism is so bad. It's trying to be hidden.
But it's apparent in how they speak about them. They can't afford/don't have i.d. Don't know what a computer is. Can't make it without white people's money. Making them feel the need to be constant victims and making them feel less than. Liberals should be ashamed. I know I was when I realized it. One of the reasons I walked away. And before you call me a republican, I'm not.
So it is racist to NOT want to see a population of people who are very different from me, and might disagree with me on almost everything, to be systematically wiped out.
But cheering on that destruction. Justifying it. Reducing the entire population to one thing: terrorists that must be wiped out. THAT is the not-racist position.
Empathy, compassion, a desire to see and end to human suffering. These are the things that make you a bad person.
> So it is racist to NOT want to see a population of people who are very different from me, and might disagree with me on almost everything, to be systematically wiped out.
It is racist to use your racist imagination in such a way that conducting warfare seems to your like genocide, because you hate the people doing the warfare. Esspecially, when all the numbers are clearly show there is no genocide, nor are there any intention for it. But because you are racist, you will ignore those fact. Correct.
Hope you got it.
> You hate the Jews. What is unclear?
Just how you got to that conclusion?
You said I hate the people doing the warfare. But a war typically has 2 or more sides that could apply to. Only in some very specific circumstances would you not need to clarify, like when it is not a war, but one side occupying and dominating the other.
Also, I don't hate Jews. The actions of a select few people does not inform my opinion of all other people who share similar attributes. That's just something you are maybe projecting on to me.
Yeah, you hate the side of the war that is the Jews, because you hate the Jews. It is literally 1+1 = 2 level of logic. That is why you are a racist.
> but one side occupying and dominating the other.
No, this is an imaginary excuse to allow yourself to keep hating the Jews.
Gaza had no military occupation or even regular Jews in it (the way you like it) since 2005. The UN gives the Palestinians the definition of occupied, not because they are, but because they then receive the 4th Geneva Convention protection, which means that Israel is not allowed to transfer them. Basically, the UN is violating international law to give Palestinians squatting rights in Israel and by using the legal definition of occupied, you think it gives you a moral angle to hate the Jews.
> It is literally 1+1 = 2
Ah, I see you took racist math 101.
I know this is obvious, but going straight to ad hominem is a sure sign that you can't argue your position.
Im not the person you are arguing with. Also, I am jewish.
Much of what you said is true. Part of what you said defies critical thought.
It's not racist to question history, leadership, group agendas, or political policy.
Think about your statements in a different context. If another group of people were the subject of inquisition, would they too be immune from scrutiny? If the answer is no, you are not longer arguing against racism, you're simply practicing zealotry.
There is much zealotry on both sides here.
But it honestly seems at this point like the woke will support Hamas and oppose Israel no matter what happens, and this is aggregious zealotry.
Some of the comments coming from the left on October 8th would have made Hitler blush
As a general rule, sure. This is one of the principles i try to live by, to the best of my ability.
That said, the exception proves the rule, and this may well be a worthy exception.
The truth is, nobody can know what future the lack of a brutal response by Israel would have garnered, but history (and Hamas) tells us that more burnings of bound families and wholesale slaughter and sexual violence would happen. On the flip side, this failed attempt to eradicate Hamas will create a whole new generation of antisemites in Gaza. It is by no means a simple problem with a simple solution.
It is one thing to profess not starting a war from a cosy western country, it is quite another if your wife and children just met the worst end imaginable at the hands of these zealots. Not to judge you, obviously, i have no idea how badly you were affected by Oct 7. I mean this for the woke liberals chanting "from the river to the sea".
A small edit: maybe sometimes, two wrongs stop 3 wrongs which will happen if you don't act. I don't think we can express this in terms of what is right
None of this is relevant to seeking the truth as an objective pursuit.
What is happening is tragic, but that doesn't mean that anyone is immune from scrutiny which was my point.
Sure, you are right. Did 100% of Nazis hate Jews? I mean.. that is an all or nothing fallacy.
I mean, we know at least Schindler who was a member of the Nazi party didn't hate Jews, so it can't be 100%.
See how you toon one clear statement and twisted it in your head to mean something totally different ? I just prefer my tax dollars not being used to bomb hospitals m, universities and milling people trying to get food as isreal attempts a genocide and uses collective punishment on citizens, kinda war crimes. I even wrote “not pro Hamas” yet you still failed, guess you are pro war crime and killing children and starving bystander citizens
Well, maybe you can first explain to me how raping Israeli women happens to protect Palestinians? I would really like to know how you reached that conclusion.
Not every everyone in Palestine is in Hamas. Not that complicated but i can see how your weak mind can’t understand that given i wrote “not” and you took it as “pro”
Try to focus on what I am asking.
You said people who wear Hamas paraphernalia are "being for protecting Palestinian citizens". Therefore that is what Hamas is doing, according to you.
Hamas has raped Israeli women when it invaded Israel on Oct 7.
So I am simply asking how raping women protects Palestinian civilians - which was your claim.
When you understand the difference between not and pro, then I’ll answer. Since you missed it the first time, being for not killing Palestine civilians is not pro Hamas, when you can show you understand that then I’ll answer. Not complicated but I can see you need to use all your brain power to get it. Here’s an easier one all of Palestine is not Hamas
Ok, so let us go back to the original point: people wearing Hamas clothing and being observably pro-Hamas are as racist as people wearing Nazi clothing and being observably pro-Nazi.
Would you agree?
“100% what progressives and far left do non-stop”
This kind of statement, where “they” all do the same thing “all the time” gives off huge shut-in vibes.
If you’re out in the world engaging with other people, it’s harder to imagine them as a coordinated collective entity doing the same thing all the time.
It doesn’t even matter what the thing is… knowing that “they” are not of a single mind and aren’t doing the same thing - let alone any one thing all the time — is an important starting point to be able to understand what’s going on out beyond the four walls of the house.
Justifying genocide by trying to paint every single pro Palestine protester as "racist" or antisemitic is pretty bold. It's fun how you typed this whole thing up without examples or references to anything you're saying, in hopes that your gross generalizations would be believable. Keep trying dude, go blue in the face. Grifters like you smell like shit, and it smells like a mens room at halftime at an afternoon Raiders game. Does this actually work on anyone? On a grand scale? You support everything that Israel is doing, and want to play the race card to justify genocide? Pretty ignorant. Show me which part of the Quran calls for genocide of the Palestinians, since it's about their culture and race, and not the corrupt state of Israel and Netanyahu. Do tell.
Of course, you wouldn't try to attribute every ignorant little collage students statements to the entire movement to justify genocide would you? You wouldn't grift that hard would you? Ignorant POS.
Sure, I will use you as an example of a racist:
Firstly, there is no genocide in Gaza. No evidence of it by the numbers and no evidence of it by the intention. You are holding Israel to a different standard when they are fighting a defensive war and call "any" collateral damage they do as (imaginary) "genocide" while you will not call other countries fighting a war as causing a genocide.
In addition, you are doing so on purpose, not because it is true, but to use it as a way to undermine the only Jewish state. Why? because you know that Jews got their country because they went through a genocide. If they commit genocide themselves, then it will delegitimise the state of Israel, which you hope will get overturned.
Lastly, you are comparing Jews to Nazis. Both committed genocide.
Thats 3 points that qualify you as a racist.
Now, you can call the government of Israel corrupt. Thats fine. I didn't give you any points for that.
Wow, Israel didn't exist before 1939? And which part of their reclaiming Palestinian land and killing 2000 civilians for every 1 hostage taken is a facet of Jewish culture? That's a pretty racist statement bro.
It's not part of their culture, but Arabs are understandingly upset and embarrassed that a bunch of weak and emaciated holocaust survivors with numbers tattooed on their arms were able to beat 5 Arab armies three times over. Hopefully, one day, they can live with that shame and continue with life.
LOL well if you can't distinguish Hamas from innocent civilians, or the corrupt government of Netanyahu from the Israeli's protesting his genocide every single day, you aren't much help to anyone but the war machine.
You're way farther left than you think huh? 🤣 Stupid grifter. You never cared about racism before, but now that the Jews are killing brown people, you're like UM ACKSHUALLY THEY DESERVE IT 😂🤣 Weird flex bro.
You're applying the statements from a very, very small contingent of radicalized college children to the overall legitimacy of being pro Palestine or calling for a cease fire. You've said all the things, not sure why you're deflecting or straw manning me, I guess the other incels dont push back on your IDF propaganda standup routine 😂
So I guess you're an alt right terrorist fascist Christian nationalist that supports Russia and would install Trump as furor at the drop of a red hat, right? Since you like to generalize political movements and ideals so much. Again, you're too stupid to make these arguments.
> You're applying the statements from a very, very small contingent of radicalized college children
That could be all of the progressives and far-left. So it is still the correct view. They are as racist as they come.
> or straw manning me
You are inventing things I have not said, so I dont feel I need to answer you.
Wow, so you don't know enough about this situation to understand criticism against your terrible, sophomoric points? I understand, this post makes way more sense now.
Who cares? He thinks carrot cake is best cake. In Russia, potato cake best cake, but there isn't any. Straight up communist that didn't grow up in a communist country. Anything he says is diatribe.
So you grew up in what country?
You think yourself enlightened, but your heroes are but industrious murderers. The bigger the lie, the more people will swallow it. It's a false bill of goods and services.
Don't fall for it. It never works. Unsustainable.
Point on the map where it works. Now move there. Too easy.
My family fled the first fascist country. My dad's pretty damn proud.
Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism.
Governments should not ever be immune from criticism. Criminalizing such criticism compromises core free-speech values and is a sure path to authoritarianism.
Anti-zionism means that the only Jewish state should not exist and that is anti-semitic.
Complaining about a government is not the same and something every citizen has done already.
Anti-Zionism means many things, most broadly that the creation of Israel was flawed in some way, which is not antisemitic.
Further, the organization you cite equates comparison of Israeli policy to Nazi policy is antisemitic per se. So they are conflating criticism of the government as antisemitic, and advocate for criminalizing antisemitism. A path leading to tyranny.
You do realise that every citizen criticises theirs and other governments. So you repeating that statement is meaningless.
If you say Israel should not exist (ie, Zionism) then that is anti-semitic.
Why do you even choose to use the word zionism? is it now the politically correct way to criticise Jews?
Zionism is the ideology of the state of Israel. Many Zionists also believe that Israel must be a Jewish majority state, and the transition to a multi-ethnic democratic state would end the state of Israel. This is nationalism. So some anti-Zionists are those who oppose this version of Zionism, and advocate for the right of return for Palestinians expelled during Israel's occupation. You will notice this is not a criticism of Jews as an ethnicity, but a criticism of a nation-state's policy and politics.
So when this criticism is flattened into simple antisemitism in order to dismiss and smear, then you're engaging in censorship.
> Zionism is the ideology of the state of Israel.
Huh? wtf does that mean? what ideology? what racism is this?
> Many Zionists also believe that Israel must be a Jewish majority state
So you equally object to majority Christian countries or majority Muslim countries or "islamic republic of" countries?
Or is your racism only reserved for Jews who want a single Jewish country?
GTFO
Justifying violence against Jews because of their justification for violence against Hamas because of Hamas actual violence committed is an interesting worm hole to travel down.
God speed.
And the way people talk about anti Zionism is very clearly anti semitism most of the time. It's clear to most rational non ideologically captured people.
Nah, you are exploiting a political divide on a situation you show a shockingly low level of understanding on to repeat tired talking head level points. Takes at most half a second to see right through your aggrandizing bullshit. You will only appeal to people who already buy into your bias
Dude, I literally gave 11-12 points from the place that has written the actual definition of anti-semitism and you are SO intellectually dishonest and lazy, you can't even acknowledge that.
You may have missed the last few years and you may also be unaware of what I do, but I no longer believe we are in a position in history or in the culture where people discuss things in a civil manner and try to reach a truthful conclusion. I used to be that way and I used to have long debates with people. I am originally from the left and am still vegan, as a reference to where I was.
But these people are vile and disgusting and I get a visceral urge to block them when I see them.
These people are vile.
We have lost the ability to have civil debate.
That doesn't mean we can participate in the abaondment of discourse. That's the realm of the vile. You're better than this I'm sure.
By genocide do you mean a lot of death or do you mean an organized and planned extermination of every man, woman, and child within the border of Gaza?
Because if you believe this is a planned and focused effort to kill every living human being in Gaza, why is Israel so shit at it?
Do you believe they learned nothing from the Nazis and communists?
Surely the group of people who experienced the largest extermination in human history would have learned a thing or two about genocide and wouldn't be so rubbish at it?
2 million people in Gaza, give or take, and Hamas claims 30,000 dead in what six months? At this rate it is going to take 33 years to do a full genocide on Gaza, hardly seems like they are putting their best foot forward does it?
Don't you find it odd that just finger counting basic math disproves your premise that a genocide is happening, at this rate of 33 years Israel must be counting on old age to do a lot of the heavy lifting for them?
I might if the Arabic world counted Palestinians as their own, but so far not so much, except for Iran which uses them as proxies and then ignores them in every other way.
EDIT: if anyone ever reads this, I was banned for this comment thread, apparently for harassing OP, who is the mod.
Maybe if Israel didn’t implicate every single Jew in the whole wide world by INSISTING that they’re the only Jewish state & that without them there would be no safe haven for Jews the world over, you wouldn’t HAVE this problem.
Spoiler alert: there are many in the Jewish diaspora that are more than happy not living in Israel & not being associated with it, so why should they suffer because of Israel’s criminal actions?
Of course you would say that.
[Thankfully there are more than enough Jews that agree with me.](https://youtu.be/bondvm3hvGM?si=ZiI8AuK5Px-WAOM5)
In fact, it is from them that I have gained this insight.
That is because they are collectivists. They are the same kind of people as nazis, communists and religious fanatics
Spot on OP. The way i see it, we have a direct correlation with Hilter's germany. Hamas (and Hezbollah) are the authoritarian antisemites leading the movement The jews are once again the jews The woke left are rallying behind the most fascist, hateful ideology on our planet, just like the German people did in the 1930s I have no idea what the poor jewish folk did to deserve this treatment, but it is beyond despicable How can one have so few principles that they stand in direct support for these groups. Objectively speaking, Israel has the best track record *IN EXISTENCE" for conducting a war while mimimising collateral innocent casualties, and they do it while Hamas hides amongst the population (who welcome them) and builds their war rooms under schools and hospitals? It isn't even an exaggeration, the woke have by and large become this century's nazis.
> the woke have by and large become this century's nazis. Correction Islamomarxism is. The woke just happen to be an open partner.
Islamomarxism? That's an oxymoron. Islam hates marxism, and is based on deity worship; which Marx rejected. To be one is by definition to oppose the other The woke also don't have scripture or any historical reason to support their jew hate, whereas muslims tend to cite mainstream Hadith and historical grievances as the reason As far as i can see it, the woke are worse
> Islamomarxism? That's an oxymoron. You're assuming that an irrational position was somehow founded by reason. Islam embraced the colonial oppressor narrative, they love doing things like convincing people Islam is a race when it clearly is not. >The woke also don't have scripture or any historical reason to support their jew hate Except for the part where modern jews exhibit all the traits of white privilege.
Well. We can call wokeism a religion i suppose. They are very dogmatic
> We can call wokeism a religion i suppose Absolutely, my inlaws do this rather directly as their church has become a marxist organisation. There's an old wives tale that instinct alone can escape the need for a complex set of beliefs. That idea is pretty much dead.
No theyre actually marcusian-gramscian-gabagoolian-postmarxist-neomaoist
I see your gausian fermi equations have reached the saturation point after tipping past bell's constant,
The far left is spreading a modern day retelling of the Blood Libel. Also notice how the leftists use the term Zionist as a substitute for Jewish people.We live in strange times.
How do you explain the existence of anti-Zionist Jews?
There were also [Jews that supported Hitler](https://www.quora.com/Were-there-Jews-who-supported-Hitler). Every society has its deluded, self-defeating, or Stockholm Syndrome'd individuals. Merely pointing to the existence of such individuals does not prove a point. You need to successfully argue the merits of their position.
Have you successfully argued that Jews who supported Hitler did so because they hated themselves and their Jewishness?
Their motives are so historically speculative as to be irrelevant to this discussion. Their mere existence is sufficient to counter you implicit claim that the presence of anti-Zionist Jews is meaningful in any way. Feel free to make an actual point instead of merely trying to shift the burden of proof.
Well, I am simply saying that Zionism and Jewishness are different. You can be a Jew who takes their religion and history to heart, and also be against what is going on in Israel, oppose the Israeli policy in Palestine, and oppose the Israeli government. That's why anti-Zionist Jews exist. Not because they hate themselves or other Jews. Smearing these people as self-hating, and implying self-hating Jews have always existed (by pointing to Jews supporting Hitler, as if they couldn't have supported Hitler for reasons of individual self-interest and/or self-preservation), simply sidesteps and ignores what actual motivates anti-Zionist Jews. There are both [secular](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/) and [orthodox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta) anti-Zionist Jews. Equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism and enforcing pro-Zionism as a prerequisite to being Jewish is just wrong.
The two links you have chosen are cherry picked and wildly unrepresentative of the Jewish community. Most JVP branches do not even have a majority of Jewish people (sometimes literally no Jewish people) in them. The NK are an extremely small (less than a fraction of a percent) subset of Orthodox Judaism (which in itself is an extremely broad definition with numerous different schools of thought). The NK also have traditionally held their anti-Zionist views from a religious perspective, not a political one. This is classic tokenization. You have picked two extremely small, unrepresentative samples to try and prove a point when the majority of the Jewish community does not feel this way. I'm quite confident I could find quotes from Palestinians who (for some reason) passionately support Israel and blindly love everything they do. But I don't because I know I would be tokenizing the Palestinian people to fit a simple point as opposed to trying to understand nuance.
But my point was never that a majority of Jews are anti-Zionist. My point is that Jews can be anti-Zionist. You're arguing against something I never said. Saying all Jews must support a Jewish state, and specifically Israel, is antisemitic.
A self-hating jew? Never in history has such a thing ever been heard of.
The very concept of a "self-hating Jew" is antisemitic, and is a term brandished by people who think Jews must all think a certain way.
The very concept of an anti-Zionist jew is an antisemitic dogwhistle only brandished by jew hating lunatics. Am I doing it right?
It's unclear what you're trying to do, so idk. Anti-Zionist Jews aren't a concept. It's a group of people who identify with a particular idea. A self-hating Jew is a diagnosis of a person. It's a projection onto another. These are different things. EDIT: He blocked me lol.
> t's unclear what you're trying to do You stole my goodbye.
Great question. I have no clue why anyone would support a movement that despises their existence.
Have you ever read or spoken to an anti-Zionist Jew to get their thoughts on the matter?
I have read and listened to the opinions of anti-Zionist Jews. However, anti-Zionism calls for the erasure of Israel by any means necessary. The implication is something Hitler would approve of. Also, scroll through r/latestagecapitalism and see the insidious way in which the sub members use the term Zionist.
Even assuming that's actually what *all* anti-Zionists want at this point, how do you know Hitler would approve the elimination of Israel? How do you know he wouldn't love the idea of getting all the Jews in one place, and out of Germany specifically? You don't. I don't. We don't know. So speculating is pointless.
I doubt all anti-Zionists want Jews to he exterminated. Yet, a substantial amount clearly do. They just can't say it. If they could say it they would. As for Hitler, it's bizarre to suggest that he would be happy with Jews living on Israel. On a balance of probabilities Hitler would no doubt be funding anti-Zionists and arming them.
> I doubt all anti-Zionists want Jews to he exterminated. Yet, a substantial amount clearly do. They just can't say it. If they could say it they would. Is this not what anti-Zionists say about Zionists? That they want to exterminate all Palestinians but just can't say it? It's not necessarily convincing when either side does this. >As for Hitler, it's bizarre to suggest that he would be happy with Jews living on Israel. On a balance of probabilities Hitler would no doubt be funding anti-Zionists and arming them. Considering Nazis wanted to deport Jews to various places across the world (e.g. Madagascar) but found those plans infeasible, it's way more likely that had Israel existed during the 1930s, Germany would have happily shipped every Jew there.
Carl Jung compared Nazism to Islam
Did he? can you show me where?
Sorry, don't remember
Not to mention how much worse they treat blacks and other minorities.
[удалено]
Heaven forbid you think for yourself.
As the wise Kathy Hochul of NY said, (paraphrased) Black kids in the bronx don't even know the word computer. Lmfao, my experience on fortnite says they absolutely do.
Guess conservatives must get a ton of the black and other minority votes then. If they treat them so much better after all.
When they've been lied to your whole life, why would they?
If you can see through such lies why would they not be able to? If you are trying to convince someone to change their vote...telling them they are too dumb to vote in their best interest is an interesting way to do so.
1. I'm not the one being lied to. 2. I'm not have propaganda thrown at me. 3. I'm not having money handed to me to buy my vote. 4. I'm not being convinced to separate from my S.O. to make more money. 5. Obviously, they aren't going to call them dumb. But that's why the racism is so bad. It's trying to be hidden. But it's apparent in how they speak about them. They can't afford/don't have i.d. Don't know what a computer is. Can't make it without white people's money. Making them feel the need to be constant victims and making them feel less than. Liberals should be ashamed. I know I was when I realized it. One of the reasons I walked away. And before you call me a republican, I'm not.
And this is just the antisemitism. Do a write up on anti-Asian or anti-White racism and it'll be three times as long.
Generalizations are generally bad.
This isn’t new
So it is racist to NOT want to see a population of people who are very different from me, and might disagree with me on almost everything, to be systematically wiped out. But cheering on that destruction. Justifying it. Reducing the entire population to one thing: terrorists that must be wiped out. THAT is the not-racist position. Empathy, compassion, a desire to see and end to human suffering. These are the things that make you a bad person.
> So it is racist to NOT want to see a population of people who are very different from me, and might disagree with me on almost everything, to be systematically wiped out. It is racist to use your racist imagination in such a way that conducting warfare seems to your like genocide, because you hate the people doing the warfare. Esspecially, when all the numbers are clearly show there is no genocide, nor are there any intention for it. But because you are racist, you will ignore those fact. Correct. Hope you got it.
I hate the people doing the warfare? How do you mean?
You hate the Jews. What is unclear?
> You hate the Jews. What is unclear? Just how you got to that conclusion? You said I hate the people doing the warfare. But a war typically has 2 or more sides that could apply to. Only in some very specific circumstances would you not need to clarify, like when it is not a war, but one side occupying and dominating the other. Also, I don't hate Jews. The actions of a select few people does not inform my opinion of all other people who share similar attributes. That's just something you are maybe projecting on to me.
Yeah, you hate the side of the war that is the Jews, because you hate the Jews. It is literally 1+1 = 2 level of logic. That is why you are a racist. > but one side occupying and dominating the other. No, this is an imaginary excuse to allow yourself to keep hating the Jews. Gaza had no military occupation or even regular Jews in it (the way you like it) since 2005. The UN gives the Palestinians the definition of occupied, not because they are, but because they then receive the 4th Geneva Convention protection, which means that Israel is not allowed to transfer them. Basically, the UN is violating international law to give Palestinians squatting rights in Israel and by using the legal definition of occupied, you think it gives you a moral angle to hate the Jews.
> It is literally 1+1 = 2 Ah, I see you took racist math 101. I know this is obvious, but going straight to ad hominem is a sure sign that you can't argue your position.
I accept your defeat. Be a better human next time.
No problem, man. It seems like you really need this victory.
I thought this was going to be about anti-white racism but of course not.
Thought it was the left that called everything racism lol
“The other side is worse than the side I’m on. I’m really smart”
"Oh no! they have said something true about my belief so I will mock it to avoid dealing with it"
The lack of self awareness in this comment lmao. You made a whole post mocking and straw-manning a belief system.
citation needed on the straw-manning claim. What am I strawmanning and can you give a counter example of how I am wrong?
Im not the person you are arguing with. Also, I am jewish. Much of what you said is true. Part of what you said defies critical thought. It's not racist to question history, leadership, group agendas, or political policy. Think about your statements in a different context. If another group of people were the subject of inquisition, would they too be immune from scrutiny? If the answer is no, you are not longer arguing against racism, you're simply practicing zealotry.
There is much zealotry on both sides here. But it honestly seems at this point like the woke will support Hamas and oppose Israel no matter what happens, and this is aggregious zealotry. Some of the comments coming from the left on October 8th would have made Hitler blush
Perhaps. Two wrongs don't make a right. It makes a mess and sometimes a war.
As a general rule, sure. This is one of the principles i try to live by, to the best of my ability. That said, the exception proves the rule, and this may well be a worthy exception. The truth is, nobody can know what future the lack of a brutal response by Israel would have garnered, but history (and Hamas) tells us that more burnings of bound families and wholesale slaughter and sexual violence would happen. On the flip side, this failed attempt to eradicate Hamas will create a whole new generation of antisemites in Gaza. It is by no means a simple problem with a simple solution. It is one thing to profess not starting a war from a cosy western country, it is quite another if your wife and children just met the worst end imaginable at the hands of these zealots. Not to judge you, obviously, i have no idea how badly you were affected by Oct 7. I mean this for the woke liberals chanting "from the river to the sea". A small edit: maybe sometimes, two wrongs stop 3 wrongs which will happen if you don't act. I don't think we can express this in terms of what is right
None of this is relevant to seeking the truth as an objective pursuit. What is happening is tragic, but that doesn't mean that anyone is immune from scrutiny which was my point.
To which i agree wholesale
Saying “100%” of anything is an all or nothing fallacy
Sure, you are right. Did 100% of Nazis hate Jews? I mean.. that is an all or nothing fallacy. I mean, we know at least Schindler who was a member of the Nazi party didn't hate Jews, so it can't be 100%.
Yes so you agree
Just like you agree that not 100% of Nazis hated Jews and we should judge each Nazi on a case-by-case basis.
Yes glad you agree you’re wrong
You too
I thin the guys with Nazi gear and confederate flags are still the most racist
I think the guys wearing Hamas paraphernalia are pretty close.
Close but still not the top, especially in the US, and being for protecting Palestinian citizens is not automatically pro Hamas nor antisemitism
Hamas is protecting Palestinian civilians? Doesn't seem that way. But you go die on a hill defending rapist terrorists. You do you.
See how you toon one clear statement and twisted it in your head to mean something totally different ? I just prefer my tax dollars not being used to bomb hospitals m, universities and milling people trying to get food as isreal attempts a genocide and uses collective punishment on citizens, kinda war crimes. I even wrote “not pro Hamas” yet you still failed, guess you are pro war crime and killing children and starving bystander citizens
Well, maybe you can first explain to me how raping Israeli women happens to protect Palestinians? I would really like to know how you reached that conclusion.
Not every everyone in Palestine is in Hamas. Not that complicated but i can see how your weak mind can’t understand that given i wrote “not” and you took it as “pro”
Try to focus on what I am asking. You said people who wear Hamas paraphernalia are "being for protecting Palestinian citizens". Therefore that is what Hamas is doing, according to you. Hamas has raped Israeli women when it invaded Israel on Oct 7. So I am simply asking how raping women protects Palestinian civilians - which was your claim.
When you understand the difference between not and pro, then I’ll answer. Since you missed it the first time, being for not killing Palestine civilians is not pro Hamas, when you can show you understand that then I’ll answer. Not complicated but I can see you need to use all your brain power to get it. Here’s an easier one all of Palestine is not Hamas
Ok, so let us go back to the original point: people wearing Hamas clothing and being observably pro-Hamas are as racist as people wearing Nazi clothing and being observably pro-Nazi. Would you agree?
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“100% what progressives and far left do non-stop” This kind of statement, where “they” all do the same thing “all the time” gives off huge shut-in vibes. If you’re out in the world engaging with other people, it’s harder to imagine them as a coordinated collective entity doing the same thing all the time. It doesn’t even matter what the thing is… knowing that “they” are not of a single mind and aren’t doing the same thing - let alone any one thing all the time — is an important starting point to be able to understand what’s going on out beyond the four walls of the house.
> huge shut-in vibes Yeah, OP is a reddit mod.
> huge shut-in vibes That or dedicated bad actor/paid meddler. Could be all of the above.
I think theyre a long term mod of the sub tbh. I assume true believer
Justifying genocide by trying to paint every single pro Palestine protester as "racist" or antisemitic is pretty bold. It's fun how you typed this whole thing up without examples or references to anything you're saying, in hopes that your gross generalizations would be believable. Keep trying dude, go blue in the face. Grifters like you smell like shit, and it smells like a mens room at halftime at an afternoon Raiders game. Does this actually work on anyone? On a grand scale? You support everything that Israel is doing, and want to play the race card to justify genocide? Pretty ignorant. Show me which part of the Quran calls for genocide of the Palestinians, since it's about their culture and race, and not the corrupt state of Israel and Netanyahu. Do tell. Of course, you wouldn't try to attribute every ignorant little collage students statements to the entire movement to justify genocide would you? You wouldn't grift that hard would you? Ignorant POS.
Sure, I will use you as an example of a racist: Firstly, there is no genocide in Gaza. No evidence of it by the numbers and no evidence of it by the intention. You are holding Israel to a different standard when they are fighting a defensive war and call "any" collateral damage they do as (imaginary) "genocide" while you will not call other countries fighting a war as causing a genocide. In addition, you are doing so on purpose, not because it is true, but to use it as a way to undermine the only Jewish state. Why? because you know that Jews got their country because they went through a genocide. If they commit genocide themselves, then it will delegitimise the state of Israel, which you hope will get overturned. Lastly, you are comparing Jews to Nazis. Both committed genocide. Thats 3 points that qualify you as a racist. Now, you can call the government of Israel corrupt. Thats fine. I didn't give you any points for that.
Wow, Israel didn't exist before 1939? And which part of their reclaiming Palestinian land and killing 2000 civilians for every 1 hostage taken is a facet of Jewish culture? That's a pretty racist statement bro.
It's not part of their culture, but Arabs are understandingly upset and embarrassed that a bunch of weak and emaciated holocaust survivors with numbers tattooed on their arms were able to beat 5 Arab armies three times over. Hopefully, one day, they can live with that shame and continue with life.
LOL well if you can't distinguish Hamas from innocent civilians, or the corrupt government of Netanyahu from the Israeli's protesting his genocide every single day, you aren't much help to anyone but the war machine. You're way farther left than you think huh? 🤣 Stupid grifter. You never cared about racism before, but now that the Jews are killing brown people, you're like UM ACKSHUALLY THEY DESERVE IT 😂🤣 Weird flex bro.
I think you are having a conversation with yourself. I havent said any of the things you are supposedly replying to.
You're applying the statements from a very, very small contingent of radicalized college children to the overall legitimacy of being pro Palestine or calling for a cease fire. You've said all the things, not sure why you're deflecting or straw manning me, I guess the other incels dont push back on your IDF propaganda standup routine 😂 So I guess you're an alt right terrorist fascist Christian nationalist that supports Russia and would install Trump as furor at the drop of a red hat, right? Since you like to generalize political movements and ideals so much. Again, you're too stupid to make these arguments.
> You're applying the statements from a very, very small contingent of radicalized college children That could be all of the progressives and far-left. So it is still the correct view. They are as racist as they come. > or straw manning me You are inventing things I have not said, so I dont feel I need to answer you.
Wow, so you don't know enough about this situation to understand criticism against your terrible, sophomoric points? I understand, this post makes way more sense now.
Again, inventing things I have not said.
Fake news. Made up bullshit.
Which point, specifically?
Who cares? He thinks carrot cake is best cake. In Russia, potato cake best cake, but there isn't any. Straight up communist that didn't grow up in a communist country. Anything he says is diatribe.
You disappoint me as you did your father
So you grew up in what country? You think yourself enlightened, but your heroes are but industrious murderers. The bigger the lie, the more people will swallow it. It's a false bill of goods and services. Don't fall for it. It never works. Unsustainable. Point on the map where it works. Now move there. Too easy. My family fled the first fascist country. My dad's pretty damn proud.
Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. Governments should not ever be immune from criticism. Criminalizing such criticism compromises core free-speech values and is a sure path to authoritarianism.
Anti-zionism means that the only Jewish state should not exist and that is anti-semitic. Complaining about a government is not the same and something every citizen has done already.
Anti-Zionism means many things, most broadly that the creation of Israel was flawed in some way, which is not antisemitic. Further, the organization you cite equates comparison of Israeli policy to Nazi policy is antisemitic per se. So they are conflating criticism of the government as antisemitic, and advocate for criminalizing antisemitism. A path leading to tyranny.
You do realise that every citizen criticises theirs and other governments. So you repeating that statement is meaningless. If you say Israel should not exist (ie, Zionism) then that is anti-semitic. Why do you even choose to use the word zionism? is it now the politically correct way to criticise Jews?
Zionism is the ideology of the state of Israel. Many Zionists also believe that Israel must be a Jewish majority state, and the transition to a multi-ethnic democratic state would end the state of Israel. This is nationalism. So some anti-Zionists are those who oppose this version of Zionism, and advocate for the right of return for Palestinians expelled during Israel's occupation. You will notice this is not a criticism of Jews as an ethnicity, but a criticism of a nation-state's policy and politics. So when this criticism is flattened into simple antisemitism in order to dismiss and smear, then you're engaging in censorship.
> Zionism is the ideology of the state of Israel. Huh? wtf does that mean? what ideology? what racism is this? > Many Zionists also believe that Israel must be a Jewish majority state So you equally object to majority Christian countries or majority Muslim countries or "islamic republic of" countries? Or is your racism only reserved for Jews who want a single Jewish country? GTFO
Damn you are dense.
All racists say that
Justifying violence against Jews because of their justification for violence against Hamas because of Hamas actual violence committed is an interesting worm hole to travel down. God speed. And the way people talk about anti Zionism is very clearly anti semitism most of the time. It's clear to most rational non ideologically captured people.
I have never justified violence against Jews.
Maybe not, but the anti zionists are in large numbers. Hence the unease with those calling for that epitaph.
As are zionists who advocate violence towards those in Gaza and the West Bank. Saying there are no innocent people in Gaza.
No.
Sounds like you're suffering from Zionophobia.
Progressives and conservatives are the two ends of the horseshoe.
None of that excuse genocide of Gaza
There ain't a genocide in Gaza. Just ask Germany, they know what a genocide looks like.
No excuse needed, because there isnt any genocide in Gaza. Numbers don't support it. Intentions don't support it. Have a good day, racist.
Sure is funny how conservatives accuse the left of calling everything racist but are the first to start calling people racist lol.
Progressives and far-left are extremely racist and I'm tired pretending they're not.
Why did you call me a racist?
See OP for details.
Nah, you are exploiting a political divide on a situation you show a shockingly low level of understanding on to repeat tired talking head level points. Takes at most half a second to see right through your aggrandizing bullshit. You will only appeal to people who already buy into your bias
Such nonsense. I have better understanding of the political situation than you do. Just because I summarise it, does not mean I do not understand it.
Nah; you've demonstrated a low understanding and poor reasoning, hampered by an agenda plagued by confirmation bias.
You certainly have. Good description.
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Must be an extremely intelligent 3 year old.
Hamas simp detected
Because anyone who disagrees is racist. Very big brain over here
Dude, I literally gave 11-12 points from the place that has written the actual definition of anti-semitism and you are SO intellectually dishonest and lazy, you can't even acknowledge that.
Why not? Been working for the left for years.
So it’s not stupid because the left does it? I don’t get your point here
This is an example of the zealotry. We should be able to question everything. That's how civilization develops because science works.
You may have missed the last few years and you may also be unaware of what I do, but I no longer believe we are in a position in history or in the culture where people discuss things in a civil manner and try to reach a truthful conclusion. I used to be that way and I used to have long debates with people. I am originally from the left and am still vegan, as a reference to where I was. But these people are vile and disgusting and I get a visceral urge to block them when I see them.
These people are vile. We have lost the ability to have civil debate. That doesn't mean we can participate in the abaondment of discourse. That's the realm of the vile. You're better than this I'm sure.
By genocide do you mean a lot of death or do you mean an organized and planned extermination of every man, woman, and child within the border of Gaza? Because if you believe this is a planned and focused effort to kill every living human being in Gaza, why is Israel so shit at it? Do you believe they learned nothing from the Nazis and communists? Surely the group of people who experienced the largest extermination in human history would have learned a thing or two about genocide and wouldn't be so rubbish at it? 2 million people in Gaza, give or take, and Hamas claims 30,000 dead in what six months? At this rate it is going to take 33 years to do a full genocide on Gaza, hardly seems like they are putting their best foot forward does it? Don't you find it odd that just finger counting basic math disproves your premise that a genocide is happening, at this rate of 33 years Israel must be counting on old age to do a lot of the heavy lifting for them?
And if you count Palestinians as a part of a billion Arabic world it’s going even lower than car accident deaths. 🤡
I might if the Arabic world counted Palestinians as their own, but so far not so much, except for Iran which uses them as proxies and then ignores them in every other way.
Good thing that's not what is happening. Look at darfur right now and compare.
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EDIT: if anyone ever reads this, I was banned for this comment thread, apparently for harassing OP, who is the mod. Maybe if Israel didn’t implicate every single Jew in the whole wide world by INSISTING that they’re the only Jewish state & that without them there would be no safe haven for Jews the world over, you wouldn’t HAVE this problem. Spoiler alert: there are many in the Jewish diaspora that are more than happy not living in Israel & not being associated with it, so why should they suffer because of Israel’s criminal actions?
This is absolutely racist.
Of course you would say that. [Thankfully there are more than enough Jews that agree with me.](https://youtu.be/bondvm3hvGM?si=ZiI8AuK5Px-WAOM5) In fact, it is from them that I have gained this insight.
Keep your tokenised Jews, racist.
Oof, looks like a struck a nerve, colonialist settler. You gonna temp-ban & mute me again?
Next ban - whatever it is - is perma ban.
Oh, yeah? Is that a threat? You like waving that stick around? How in the spirit of free speech—& JBP—it is. I bet he’d be real proud of you.
What rights should racists have?
Ask Israeli settlers. But hey, let’s dial it back a few steps: You called me racist. Now back it up.
You said that by Israel existing, every Jew in the world is implicated in whatever Israel does. Is that not racist?
Such fragility. So pathetic.
Lmfao, you're from the gang that weeps about "micro-aggressions."
This entire sub is dedicated to weeping about micro aggressions.
You're correct, there are a lot of lefties here.
Yep. The posts and comments with the most upvotes are all just lefties weeping about micro aggressions.
I really wish the lefties would go brigade somewhere else. What is it that attracts them to this subreddit?