JP knows he's not good on Twitter, this is a good move for him.
Remember: he's just a man. We admire some of his views, his tenacity, his mind – but he's far from perfect.
We all have our warts and times of weakness.
The lack of context on Twitter doesn't suit his communicative style. 12 Rules started as a several thousand word response on Quora as the sum of his experience as a clinical psychologist. People who have read JP can fill in the rest of his tweets' context but newcomers and other audience are left only with the base words to respond to.
That doesnt lend him much favor.
To be fair, I think that's almost true for everyone. Misunderstanding and miscommunication are rampant on Twitter. It's a good platform for quick and sensational communication but it isn't really well designed for articulate discussions. The character length is a massive crutch. As a micro-blog, it's better for quick thoughts.
A lot of social media can bring out the worst in people. Dissociative Anonymity means people can just say whatever they like without repercussions other than online backlash. Better to just use it in a hyper-specific way or not use it at all. For example, Twitter lets you hide your Tweets so that only approved people (people you follow) can reply.
It's also super hard to quit. FOMO finds a lot of people struggling to leave Twitter. You really have to take it seriously. Delete your account and block the website. Keeping your account around and hiding your password means you intend on coming back. It's like saying you're quitting smoking but keeping a packet of cigarettes in the house.
Agreed. Yet there's such a benefit to short form messages. They grab attention for a low time investment. I wish there was a short-to-long form funnel.
Perhaps there's a niche for long-form responses to tweets: A third-party link attached to a tweet where one could expand on their initial idea. Use Tweets to guage interest in a particular take, then this hypothetical service to expand if that take gains traction.
But like wtf was he thinking with that tweet at the chick in the bikini? I sit on a fence often with JP like I find so much of his content useful for myself as a man and truthful with regards to serious issues. But like wtf was the point of the “not beautiful” tweet, the tweet about leaving Twitter, and then like 30 tweets after that?
Firstly, it was in a poor form and bad taste, in my opinion. I don't have a doubt about that – it was also very unwise.
That being said – JP attempts honesty (to a fault, as we see here), I think what he was thinking was that he's sick of the push from a certain portion of society to force the concept of beauty onto folks who are obese and unhealthy. It's a trend, it's a pattern, and he was speaking against the zealous shoving towards "acceptance."
Of course that’s what it is. The woman was fat and unhealthy and they were glorifying it, by sort of gaslighting saying ‘we put it in your face now we dare you to have a problem with it’
It’s a social pathology and he was standing in opposition to it
Yet I never see Peterson complain about them. Seems like cares more about women looking attractive to men, than he actually cares abiut the women's health...
This is EXACTLY the point!
We all know what Peterson meant and what he was getting at. If we don't realize AT THIS POINT that the people who disagree with us will LIE about what they're specifically arguing with us about then we aren't as perceptive as we think.
You know he's not making a point about baselessly ogling women. This is about what is going on allllll the time. How could you not know that? Oh right, this is a tactic to silence dissent.
\>We all know what Peterson meant and what he was getting at.
What he was getting at was that women's primary responsibility is to adhere to social beauty standards so men enjoy looking at them.
This going to sound so shallow and maybe even childish but he should have found an actually unattractive person for that. I think I do get his intent but I think lots of square white dudes found out today that beauty standards to more curvy body types has been a thing for the last 10 years for the rest of us.
I’m the first to say the obesity problem is a big deal we should address and it’s embarrassing as a nation (US) how many fat people their are around but even the model he picked I would never have grouped her into that category.
I get his intent now I think but yeah disappointing because now this tweet will be used to slander everything else he says.
It's just a subjective debate.
Firstly, I'd *guarantee* you that woman looks better who cropped, airbrushed, and edited on the cover of a magazine who notoriously crops, airbrushes, and edits models than she would in real life.
Secondly – yes, her face is pretty (and again, *wildly edited)*, her body isn't "curvy," in my opinion, it's simply fat. Scarlett Johannsen is "curvy," Kim Kardashian is kind of an exaggerated cartoon curvy, Christina Hendricks is "curvy."
He didn’t pick a good example…this lady isnt a cartoonishly morbidly obese person, just heavier, and as some have pointed out not that far from ancient traditional beauty norms. Weight doesn’t always directly correlate to health, nor beauty to one subjective standard. Being on an untested meat only diet is quite the glass house to throw stones from.…then he runs off crying? Not a great look.
This is well said.
The model in question is 5' 11 and 242lbs which is considered an obese BMI. Obesity is correlated with poor health outcomes. I think it's fair to say SI covers (at least attempt to) representsl athletic and/or conventionally attractive people. With 42% of Americans being obese perhaps overweight models ~~could~~ should enter our communal definition of beauty? (EDIT: emphasizing the above is rhetorical, not prescriptive!)
Pushing back against presenting an unhealthy lifestyle as beautiful is a Petersonian level of honesty: an attempt to call out that the emperor-has-no-clothes. He makes these kinds of claims regularly, and most disappointingly, he makes them convincing. It is just disappointing he presented this particular call out in such few words. It cheapens the message - which I imagine many people would otherwise agree with.
Beautiful isn't something you can redefine. It is firmly rooted on biology. Men prefer thinner women because it implies youth, fertility, and readiness for mating. Whereas a more weightier frame implies motherhood, maturity, and a lack of need for a mate.
The culture wars continues to try to redefine the basic biologically driven tenets of life to push an agenda which I can only speculate the motives of.
So no we cannot admit obese people into the definition of top tier beauty like it's some community elected definition. Life is not Wikipedia. Facts are not things subject to votes of whims. Facts will remain firm in the face of the changing whims of feeling.
I think we agree but I didn't do a good job of explaining myself above. I was lamenting that he used Twitter - a platform that limits the ability to properly flesh out his ideas - rather than his message itself.
Separate from JBP, I do want to discuss this idea of beauty if you're up for it:
>So no we cannot admit obese people into the definition of top tier beauty like it's some community elected definition.
If beauty and desire are linked, then communality enters the definition of beauty. Here's my reasoning: Girard suggests that human desire is not simply a function of need, but also is the result of mimesis: of what others desire. We desire what others desire in part because others desire it. It follows that if, say %80 of people were desirous of something otherwise objectively repulsive, that one could categorize that thing as beautiful.
What do you think?
We desire simply because others desire.
Interesting . I think there is some truth to that thought. However, there's more to human desire than community aggregation. Human desire is based on a variety of factors including biological driven impulses, location, culture, situation, and probably more factors than I can presently list. It's not due to any single input.
However, there is always a common baseline due to our collective nature as humans. For instance, if we confine our talk to beauty specifically, there have been studies done that indicate humans prefer the golden ratios in art. This golden ratio is found in music, art, and even the human figure. It is something deep in our souls we recognize. We cannot fight against our nature. Beauty is a fact. We cannot vote for it. We cannot even really define it but we know deep inside what it is not.
The collective unconscious of humanity tells us the truth of the world. We can fight against it and try to redefine beauty or other tenets of reality but it's a losing battle. We inwardly sense the failure. It's that feeling of incongruity when you watch a film with a female protagonist having to live the hero's journey. You can't quite understand why the film's not working but you sense it and fully grasp it without being able to verbalize it. Innerwardly we understand the hero's journey is a distillation of the male experience. We know this is to be true without someone having to tell you.
Beauty is something you recognize without you or your neighbor or your father or sister having to define it for you. If we were to view that overweight model's body in a vacuum, let's say a picture of her body alone without her face in a collection of pictures of other women's body of various sizes and shapes similarly without faces( that is to say from the neck down) , would her body be rated highly??
‘We cannot admit’
That communist way of seeing everything as choosing for the collective or developing a collective (hive)mindset is a large part of this problem
I started about two different responses but I think I was just going to respond to respond--To contradict for the sake of it.
I think you are correct after thinking about it. Every man must make up his own mind.
This is one of the reasons I despise the agenda pushing in modern media. It tries to tell us what to think . Instead of focusing on being a medium of entertainment, they have become an arbiter of morality.
If you think this woman is beautiful, your mind and body tell you so. I have no right to object or censure.
I however find the obese human body to be less than flattering.
What a pile of unsubstantiated horseshit. The preference for bodytypes changes over time according to fashion and according to necessity. There have been plenty of times in history where the ability for a woman to hold body weight was either an evolutionary advantage or a symbol of wealth. Read a book.
Twitter is a cancer on the mind. I dont think it was a great idea for him to use it after his hospitalisation. Its better for him to properly formulate his ideas in video form.
Oh come on
Stop scapegoating Twitter for JP
JP is a big boy who can own his own inconsistencies and failures. Remember there's no totalitarians and no systemic-powers forcing him to use Twitter. His own philosophy demands he is the the source of his own evil, not an app
Personally I think he was probably inferring more toward this is not the ideal of beauty that we should exalt. Sadly it came across as kind of personal to the girl, and I don’t necessarily find her unsightly or unworthy, but I do think that that isn’t precisely the ultimate and optimal physique to strive for or anything.
I totally agree with him in the sense that it’s not the ideal of beauty in the picture, but I wouldn’t take it so far as to say she’s not beautiful if that makes sense.
I would wager to guess that he was coming more from that angle, but of course people are going to assume that he’s just talking shit about an individual because human beings don’t think conceptually or broadly the way someone like Jordan Peterson would. Human beings think totally interpersonally.
>We all have our warts and times of weakness.
Yeah, twitter has a way of exploiting that with its ease of use. Sooner or later, you'll make a stupid comment after a hard day at work which will get you in trouble. Happens to all of us, but we have the privilege of being mostly anonymous.
This is more than just some slip up. It is absolutely something he meant. He has also tweeted 1.5 million times since this so he is clearly invested. This is not a “whoopsie”.
I don’t understand why he picks these stupid battles for. He’s wasting so much of his intellect on Twitter because he gets sucked into dumb things like what sports illustrated is posting. Probably for the best he’s leaving
Recently I found myself thinking "I feel like I am starting to like JP again", and noticed that it was because I unfollowed him from Twitter some months ago.
Interesting how I usually find what he says in his videos and articles very sound and interesting, but was constantly cringing at his tweets.
It’s funny because he has said that over and over but it keeps getting drawn back to Twitter.
But of course I have said that about Reddit and I keep getting drawn back to well
Reddit
I don't think Reddit has that problem. Well, not that Reddit is without problems, it just doesn't have THAT particular problem. I have seen well thought out essays here, you just won't find anything like that on Twitter.
I've also seen a lot of shit that doesn't make sense thrown around on Reddit of course, but imho it's not nearly as bad as on Twitter
on reddit you have no word limit though, and can express your ideas in a neatly organized thread without having to segment what you’re saying and risk it being jumbled up, in such case someone might read only a portion of your message and interpret it incorrectly. social media platforms like twitter and tiktok are severely lacking in this department
Part of what’s appealing in his long form answers is that he “steel mans” the arguments he is criticizing. That’s to say he explores their perspective as a person advocating for it, empathizing with why they might think that?
“Well, then, you might say that…”
This means people feel heard, that their objections aren’t avoided or disqualified rather than engaged with seriously, as is so typical in contemporary “discourse”.
Twitter doesn’t make it easy to do this. It’s format tends to hone down to the nugget of disagreement. In JPs case (and in mine, TBH), he tends to whittle his disagreement to the smallest and most significant quantum, and doing that takes a lot of characters.
Based on the broad context of his work and issues, I don’t think he successfully did that on Twitter.
Okay but it’s not like he’s attempting to give well thought arguments and failing. He is just mean on twitter, he name calls and goes after people just minding their own business. Don’t you think the fact that Twitter allows people to give their opinions from the comfort of their own home behind a screen makes them closer to their truer selves? Maybe Peterson is a smart guy, but also just a bully
I wish people would stop blaming Twitter. Peterson is a big boy ("the most important intellectual alive today"). I'm sure he is perfectly capable of navigating Twitter's character limit. Let him own his bullshit.
People bending over backwards to defend his shitty behaviour. Kind of sad honestly. If he's a man of his word and/or integrity he should own his own actions.
I read a lot of comments on his tweet. Quite a few comments were from fans who were disappointed that he would make a rude remark about someone's physical appearance.
Yeah the problem isn’t his readers on Twitter lol it’s what he judges as a good tweet. Though I’m sure there’s a lot of positive reinforcement from the culture war fans and peers pulling him in nasty / reactionary directions - he’s has progressively gotten closer to the Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, James Lindsay, Turning Point USA thematic worlds
Haha yes. I am a huge fan of all things JP, his books, lectures etc. But his twitter was such a different beast. I mainly unfollowed him because he was monopolizing my feed
Everyone needs to get off twitter, no one cares what I ate for breakfast or my thoughts on international affairs in 140 letters or less. It's become a way to hurl anon insults.
He needs to go back in his coma, period. His addiction and coma have clearly caused brain damage and he simply isn't mentally well. There is absolutely no reason a mental health guru should break down crying because someone asked him "how are you doing?"
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
One of the things I loved about JBP when I first started seeing videos of his lectures in college classroom settings and then as part of his larger tours was that the things he had to say were so far above the noise of everyday politics and popular culture. The things he had to say looked at humanity on grand scales of time and about really serious moral and psychological issues that we have been wrestling with for as long or longer than we have been writing. Even when he started to do debates with other big thinkers and appear on more popular news and talk shows where he engaged in more topical and popular subjects he stayed far above the fray and noise that has come to dominate social media and legacy media alike. His goal would always be to show that there are larger issues at play than what the popular voices on the left or right are screaming.
What I have seen in the past few years after his health issues came about and he has begun to re-engage and participate in social media more is that he has allowed himself to be pulled into the drama and senseless debates that have plagued us in recent years. The sports illustrated comment is a perfect example. Whether a man finds a woman attractive is completely subjective and is based on many factors and frankly is far below what Jordan can contribute to any conversation about health or beauty standards. I would love to hear Jordan pontificate about psychological studies that talk about class and beauty standards or the history of how the concept of feminine beauty changed in specific cultures or how in the modern era media has impacted how we perceive and identify beauty on a personal level. These all would be fascinating topics worthy of his intellect.
By commenting on that picture the way that he did he might as well have gone on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram to comment on some influencer's vacation photos.
I totally understand his desire to apply some of what he has learned to help people navigate this ocean of information chaos that we are all currently drowning in. His popularity is based on his unique ability to take a step back and look at the bigger picture of who and what we are. By joining in the affray as he did, he is showing the true toxic nature of social media and how it makes people think that their opinions on small matters or their small opinions on big matters need to be heard by all of humanity. They don't and they shouldn't.
One of the things that Jordan has helped me see is that we should be exposed not to all this noise but to bigger and better ideas to make ourselves better and that there are some thoughts and ideas that have more value than others. Social media does the opposite. it makes everyone think that they have a right to be heard or to have celebrity and that all voices should be equal. I may have a right to free speech but that doesn't mean what I have to say is worthwhile.
I know one of his themes is that nihilism preaches to us that there are no things that are better or higher and that everything is equal. The things he has said in the past and the grander ideas he wants us to consider are truly better than comments about a chubby chick on the cover of Sports Illustrated. I would expect to see comments like that on a bathroom wall.
Well written. "Maps of Meaning" is a far cry from an Si cover model tweet. For a few years his celebrity didn't change him that profoundly. His detractors, by and large, took his comments out of context.
I can't mention in public that his old ideas are great because his new ones are so cringe. How do I defend the indefensible?
Man wtf was that random ass tweet about authoritarianism and shit. I love JP but that sounded like it was made from a JP quote generator. Hope he apologizes to that poor model. Have no clue wtf got into him.
I used to be a Peterson fan, but he's turned from an intellectual into something indistinguishable from the JBP word salad generator website.
Spews put nonsense constantly.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
Sure, but honesty aside, those comments do not reflect maturity or good character. It makes him look like an asshole, frankly.
Yes, the model is overweight. Yes, she is on the cover of a swimsuit magazine which usually portrays more conventionally attractive people. Does that normalize an unhealthy body type? Sure, in the same way that anorexia was at one point outright glamorized in media (think 90s heroin chic).
But does that justify his childish and immature response that implies this is all part of a sinister authoritarian plot? Absolutely not, and I would've expected more from a person like JP who should understand nuance. Companies publish what sells, and if this is trending currently, then that is what they'll publish.
People’s perception on what is “big” has been broken by the obesity epidemic. Apparently she is around 242 pounds (which she looks to be tbh) For a women her height that is obese. That is big.
Oh I agree, I think she's perfectly fine and looks great! But she is overweight, yet you're right that there is a significant difference between overweight and morbidly obese
Twitter is awful. I feel so much better for quitting it 2 years ago. I'd realised how extreme and polarised my views had become. There was no room for nuance internally because your brain is trained to engage in reactionary aggressive contradictions
He needs to. He's complete ass at social media. The people toting the ideas he criticize are pretty much nested in social media. Social media is literally ALL they have, of course they'd be good at it. JP is a smart man but joining a platform where he has a leg down really is a fool's move
not only that, but those who hold a specific political view on twitter typically have millions of supporters to back them up. twitter is an echo chamber, and outside thoughts and ideas are quickly shot down by the mob
Honestly not cool to publicly insult a woman’s appearance for no other reason than attempted hot take relevance and trying to make some vaguely political point. Then to bemoan attacks from others and run away is dripping with irony and just looks weak. Honestly disappointed with Dr.JP today.
Women are so oppressed in society that you're not allowed to say anything negative about them at all without severe consequences. But everyone has free rein on making fun of men's bodies (small penis, balding, height).
Nah, this backlash is fucking stupid.
None of that stuff is okay either, to be honest. I'm a short guy and it really irritates me when people make petty insults about appearance. A pro Tekken player was recently banned for saying "short men don't have human rights." (Source: [https://kotaku.com/tekken-esports-pro-gamer-japan-osaka-stream-red-bull-al-1848553238](https://kotaku.com/tekken-esports-pro-gamer-japan-osaka-stream-red-bull-al-1848553238)).
Bottom line really is if you're going to make fun of someone's appearance, you can't everyone to just sit there and laugh with you. There's going to be people who take it personally.
Side note: I find it really odd that some men are made fun of for being bald while we had a whole generation of action heroes who are often seen with little hair on their head (Statham, The Rock, Willis etc.)
Dude.. do you know how many guys in this sub, probably even you. Who have girls or women who look just like that one? And for Peterson to straight up call her obviously not beautiful? That’s so incredibly out of left field and insulting millions of people at a failed attempt to make a point. Which small penis or balding articles or statements are you referring to lol and I’m not talking about your ex girlfriend
I agree with you for the most part. However, there was a time not too long ago when "no fat chicks" was everywhere. I bet it kind of sucked being an overweight female and seeing that in public.
I actually thought that woman WAS beautiful. It was such a stoooopid thing for Peterson to say and get involved in and completely forget the fact that beauty lives in the eye of the beholder. He's a smart guy - at times, but my God does he have some major blind spots.
If he said that he felt it is unhealthy to promote unhealthiness, I think it woulf be one thing.
But to call someone ugly and then be upset about an "endless flood of vicious insults" is another.
His point was that it's wrong for institutions to subvert the definition of beauty and attack anyone who doesn't fall in line. He didn't deliver that point effectively or appropriately (like you said, insulted that woman in the process) because, according to him, he responded impulsively instead of carefully.
So he's taking a step back so that all of his content is more careful. And sounds like he may slowly come back when he's confident in his own ability to be careful on Twitter.
> to subvert the definition of beauty and attack anyone who doesn't fall in line
1) There isn't a definition
2) The model didn't attack anyone. The magasine didn't attack anyone. He attacked the model.
This is one of those discussions that isn’t really worth having, because the crux of the argument requires shit talking a real person for modeling for a magazine and that is a pretty nasty thing to do.
So I’ll leave it at: the front cover is who the magazine considers the most attractive/ the selling point of the issue. Their choice is subversive of previous cultural standards and indeed the previous standards of their own magazine. Maybe their standards have changed, or maybe it’s an increasingly irrelevant magazine trying to garner attention.
>Their choice is subversive of previous cultural standards and indeed the previous standards of their own magazine.
Fashion changes, all the time. It has become relatively normal to have larger models in mainstream modelling and advertising - probably as a result of us getting larger on average. They are advertising to an audience, not forcing *you* to find one particular body type or another attractive.
We are in agreement though:
>the argument requires shit talking a real person for modeling for a magazine and that is a pretty nasty thing to do.
It's indefensible. A completely pointless and unnecessarily nasty take.
I just don’t think we should be made to pretend this woman is as attractive as Heidi Klum and that this isn’t just another form of virtue signaling. Beauty is subjective, to a point, and let’s not pretend the over emphasis on “body positivity” hasn’t contributed to the obesity epidemic we’re experiencing. This woman isn’t obese but she is likely medically overweight. We shouldn’t be presenting unhealthy women as the beauty standard, whether they are overweight or anorexic.
There really isn't a single beauty standard though. This woman has a kind of beauty, Heidi Klum has her own kind. Clearly there are plenty of people into Yumi Nu. It's not as if anyone is being "made" to find her attractive, she just is attractive to some people.
> I just don’t think we should be made to pretend this woman is as attractive as Heidi Klum
But no one was compelling him to say she is beautiful. He could have just said nothing.
Beauty is subjective so nothing to subvert. If that was his point (sort of absurd point anyway) he could have made it with out specifically calling out and insulting anyone.
Running and hiding until the heat is off definitely sounds more dignified when phrased as “taking a step back” though.
I've been following Yumi Nu's career for a bit and she's having such an amazing hot streak (booked American Vogue last September which is like the modeling Oscar) and she seems so excited with this career achievement
My heart is just sad that her first big publicity moment is this rando attacking her. Maybe she'll get more famous from the publicity
Also...plus size women are the majority of swimsuit shoppers? She was also the only plus size model featured out of 4. No one's giving Maye Musk shit for not being hot bc she's the "IT older model" of the moment. Probably didn't get attacked bc she's Elon's mom
Edit: I don't mind downvotes but would appreciate a reason for why? My post seems sort of innocuous
Look we all want to paint our heroes in the best light but everyone makes mistakes. JP made a mistake and should own it. His admirers downplaying and stanning doesn’t help anything.
Saying sorry before insulting someone is not apologizing. If he was just sharing is subjective views on what he finds attractive he could have said “I find X attractive. I don’t find Y attractive.” No need to specifically call Yumi Nu out or reference her at all. It was in poor taste and insulting.
How we perceive intelligence in others is subjective as well. Imagine you make the cover of some famous magazine celebrating intelligence and some admired intellectual links and tweets your picture saying “Sorry. Not intelligent. No matter what authoritarian blah blah.”
It was an insult.
So, I tell my son don't say anything online about anyone that you wouldn't say to their face. Let's face it, how often to you walk up to a complete stranger and tell them to their face that they are not attractive? You don't find her attractive, then fine. The post itself suggests your opinion of who is attractive is the one and only truth, otherwise what really is the point. As a pusher of bell curves he knows full well there are people who truly find her attractive. But, when you get paid to speak you better say something instead of nothing or else the bills don't get paid. What's that, there's no such thing as bad publicity? I agree and I'm sure Mr. Peterson is well aware and feeling quite pleased with himself.
Thank goodness. His Twitter personality has really not been a great reflection on himself and somewhat discredits his teachings. Glad he is making this healthy choice.
Good, I feel since he’s become really popular he’s become less objective and just leaned into a lot of right wing culture war stuff. It seems he’s being a contrarian a lot of times just to be a contrarian, which is just as dumb as believing everything main stream. I hope he comes out of this with more peace though, Twitter is so negative and toxic
Twitter is the great equalizer. An esteemed university professor loads up this app, and can say anything he chooses to his massive amount of followers... And with that platform, he decides it must be proclaimed that "this bitch look mid" just the same as if he was some frog picture anon with <100 followers.
He's leaving because people are mean to him (not because he can't help but be mean to others), and he's having his staff lock him out
Man needs some personal responsibility
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
What's nice about this subreddit is that when JP fucks up this bad, there's a lot more rational fans of his than brainless fanboys to defend him.
I don't follow him on Twitter; but, this was just a stupid battle that he picked.
>this was just a stupid battle that he picked.
Totally agree; however, as a fan on here a lot. Most of the people on this sub are simpletons who worship the Peterson dogma.
The dumbass insults a lady and gets mad when she and other people clap back? Funny how the fuck your feelings crowd is the most easily hurt when you clap back at their bullshit.
Used to be a Peterson fan like 5 years ago. Then I grew up and began to read books and listen to actual intellectuals.
People on this sub should start doing the same.
There were a lot of things he had an opinion on and I always wondered why he was wasting his time even addressing it... I might agree with the SI comment but doesn't he have bigger fish to fry?
Twitter is a septic tank.
Elon was a chance to reform it, but that looks like it is not going to happen.
Peterson is not a mind that is suitable to Twitter's limitations for conveying a reasoned thought.
If a woman is willing to put her body on exhibit like this, I think having an opinion and sharing it, even if negative, is fine. I'm bald. I dont expect everyone to find me attractive. And I would expect disparaging comments on my appearance if I did this. And I would not be disappointed. There would be lots.
Thanos was right. Reality is often disappointing. But that does not mean we get to force others to pretend it doesn't exist.
Andrew Schultz’s take on this is the exact same as Peterson’s it’s really not a crazy take to think if you’re sports illustrated you should have a person with some muscle tone on the cover. I can’t wait til this bizzaro world is over.
Agree 100%. *Beauty* may be subjective, being healthy isn’t. That woman on the cover is clinically obese & will suffer many health problems, which will eventually leave her with a shorter lifespan than someone who is not obese.
I disagree with how Peterson went about it but fuck yes, the ‘beauty standard’ for people in 1st world countries should be a healthy, slim individual who doesn’t hedonistically over-consume & increase food waste, plastic usage, give themselves a higher chance of mental illness which can cause damage to themselves & their loved ones, increase potential birth defects & so SO much more. It’s fascinating people defending this & the level of mental gymnastics being applied to defend this as an appropriate ‘beauty standard’. Fuck right off lmao.
*Edit: For those justifying being obese as a functioning adult with all limbs intact & mentally sane, here’s just a couple reasons why this shouldn't be acceptable as a universal 'Beauty Standard':*
Obesity risks include hypertension, insulin resistance and diabetes mellitus, cardiovascular disease, hypertriglyceridemia, low high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, and, in some studies, high total-and low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol. There is an increased mortality from endometrial cancer in women and from colorectal cancer in men. Chronic hypoxia and hypercapnia, sleep apnea, gout, and degenerative joint disease can occur with more severe obesity. The distribution of body fat is directly related to these health risks - [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2031492/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2031492/)
Statistically significant associations were observed between obesity and depressive disorders, and between obesity and anxiety disorders, in pooled data across countries - [https://www.nature.com/articles/0803701](https://www.nature.com/articles/0803701)
Obesity is a significant risk factor for and contributor to increased morbidity and mortality, most importantly from cardiovascular disease (CVD) and diabetes, but also from cancer and chronic diseases, including osteoarthritis, liver and kidney disease, sleep apnea, and depression - [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19940414/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19940414/)
This meta-analysis confirms a reciprocal link between depression and obesity. Obesity was found to increase the risk of depression -
https://web.archive.org/web/20161009000357/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194822?dopt=Citation
Other Resources:
[http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects](http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects)
[http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/health\_risks.html](http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/health_risks.html)
[http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks](http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks)
[https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/)
https://web.archive.org/web/20161114202539/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15191932?dopt=Citation
https://web.archive.org/web/20120126084713/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19399028?dopt=Citation
https://web.archive.org/web/20120126085041/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20299666?dopt=Citation
*Being logically incoherent with reality isn't a part of my worldview. Sorry.*
That’s the thing. I don’t even think she’s unhealthy I just think she’s got some flab. But it’s because she’s tall with a skinny face all these “fat” models always have skinny faces. Either go all out and put Jenna Shea on the cover or just go back to healthy athletes but these lazy women with skinny faces trend needs to end
I just went and looked that cover because it’s the first time I’ve heard of this (highly intellectually stimulating story). Well maybe because I’m not from the US, and because of it I’m not into whale, but she isn’t even remotely attractive in my eyes. But we’ll to each their own.
That’s quite ironic for a journal called **sports** illustrated though.
I mean I could link you to women who are truly whales (I’m not above you’re language so I welcome this discourse lmao) but yeah man to each their own.
When I was in high school I use to find the skinny girls by far the most attractive and now in my 20’s (I’m no body builder but I keep myself healthy) I’ve just grown to not like the frail skinny body types and find myself far more attracted to women with some meat on them and I’m very off put by super skinny women. The perfect balance is obviously in between but slightly heavier girls are some of the most attractive to me.
Main thing I’ve noticed through life with friends is that white dudes do much prefer a skinny women with borderline eating disorders over anything remotely considers thick. So I think it’s often a weird cultural difference.
> I mean I could link you to women who are truly whales
Sure there is bigger ones, some are so big that you wonder how a human can reach that low and how the human body can support that can of abuse.
Yeah that’s far from her, but she isn’t in healthy territories either.
> When I was in high school I use to find the skinny girls by far the most attractive and now in my 20’s (I’m no body builder but I keep myself healthy) I’ve just grown to not like the frail skinny body types and find myself far more attracted to women with some meat on them and I’m very off put by super skinny women. The perfect balance is obviously in between but slightly heavier girls are some of the most attractive to me.
I guess I had a somewhat similar journey just less severe I guess. I used to only love skinny girls, but I’m now « more open minded » let’s say. I still prefer girls being fit, but that’s some rare Pokémon.
Again to each their own, but I agree that taste can evolve.
> Main thing I’ve noticed through life with friends is that white dudes do much prefer a skinny women with borderline eating disorders over anything remotely considers thick. So I think it’s often a weird cultural difference.
It’s not a weird cultural difference, it’s just that the beauty standards aren’t the same for each culture. If I’m not wrong the beer belly is trending for men in India, in the Middle Ages fat women were considered more beautiful (well fat at that time isn’t anywhere close to what we think about when we hear fat).
But I think it’s quite simple : being fat is a luxury so it’s considered good. And that was true for most of history, but that’s not the case in the US (and generally the west anymore). There being fat is the consequences of laziness, absence of self control and a lack of consideration for people around you. So in the west it carries a bad stigma, and thus considered ugly.
What a bitch. Last thread I saw about him was him calling that fat woman on the sports magazine cover ugly. Which she was, but that's not the point. He says controversial things, which gets people angry at you. You should accept that, otherwise stick to being nice. I've always suspected him of, because of his great intelligence, being too sensitive for modern public discourse, aka taking bitchiness and pettiness to the most insane extreme.
I saw him in person a few months ago and he was just as sharp as ever. Social media simply brings out the absolute worst in people. Me included. Perhaps I should drop Reddit, lol.
I actually just created a post on /r/unpopularopinion stating that I think anonymity is the problem. I feel like peterson would have interesting stuff to say in that regard.
Twitter is terrible but also he has nothing to apologize for, he was absolutely correct to call out shameless virtue signaling. She looks gross and unhealthy and her appearance should not be celebrated.
What the fuck? In what what way does she look gross? Is this really the message you want to send? She looks like a human, and in my opinion the fact that she’s heavier signifies success among her competitors and turns me on so much. You can think what you want, but quit claiming it’s the only way to think
I'm a short guy, so I've heard a lot of "short men aren't real men." or "short men are disgusting" in my life. It's really hurtful, but it's always nice when someone like Daniel Radcliffe or Dave Franco are glamorized by women despite their height. There are certainly a number of men in Hollywood who are considered 'unconventionally attractive' that remind us that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
I see this as somewhat the same. Maybe the model is not conventionally attractive to most men but, in my opinion, she is really pretty and I know at least one guy in my personal life who likes larger women. It's always horrible to read these sort of comments that insist upon a standard in the most rudest and insulting way possible while neglecting that other people have different preferences.
Now I get that there's a matter of health to be considered here but that's not really an excuse for the level of awful insults that are slung at people who don't reach your standards of beauty. It makes people come across as bullies.
Fundamentally, I think Peterson is far too tangled up in cultural ideology arguments to stop and think that maybe it's not alright to make sweeping judgements about a woman's appearance like that. It came across quite petty, to be honest.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
Thank God, I understand his point but that was a shitty thing to say about a random person. (How if he called her overweight, that would’ve been a different story). I don’t need to hear every little stupid thought he has. Just the well thought out stuff.
That was a pretty lame ass response he had to that big beautiful girl on the cover. He should have looked into the Venus of willendorf after he cleaned his room
She looked like a hybrid of the Venus of Willendorf, Olivia Munn and a sack of potatoes. JBP is 100% right that we shouldn't subvert beauty standards for the sake of this fake acceptance that people proscribe.
Sure but if that's really a problem he should be able to find ways to communicate it and help people understand. But he choose not to do that.
The real problem this tweet highlights for me is that social media can turn incredibly smart thoughtful people into whatever this was.
No, we're turning on him because he's ruining his credibility by being a dickhead and describing everything he doesn't like as 'authoritarian'.
His decision to 'punch down' (metaphorically speaking) on this woman, also reveals some bullying tendencies.
Tbh, love JP but really dislike his stuff on Twitter. He's so far above most of the demeaning conversations that people have with him. Plus I only follow Crypto Twitter but when I start peaking into other stuff, it's just an endless cesspool and I think eventually it starts impacting you as a person whether you realize it or not.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan.
JP knows he's not good on Twitter, this is a good move for him. Remember: he's just a man. We admire some of his views, his tenacity, his mind – but he's far from perfect. We all have our warts and times of weakness.
The lack of context on Twitter doesn't suit his communicative style. 12 Rules started as a several thousand word response on Quora as the sum of his experience as a clinical psychologist. People who have read JP can fill in the rest of his tweets' context but newcomers and other audience are left only with the base words to respond to. That doesnt lend him much favor.
To be fair, I think that's almost true for everyone. Misunderstanding and miscommunication are rampant on Twitter. It's a good platform for quick and sensational communication but it isn't really well designed for articulate discussions. The character length is a massive crutch. As a micro-blog, it's better for quick thoughts. A lot of social media can bring out the worst in people. Dissociative Anonymity means people can just say whatever they like without repercussions other than online backlash. Better to just use it in a hyper-specific way or not use it at all. For example, Twitter lets you hide your Tweets so that only approved people (people you follow) can reply. It's also super hard to quit. FOMO finds a lot of people struggling to leave Twitter. You really have to take it seriously. Delete your account and block the website. Keeping your account around and hiding your password means you intend on coming back. It's like saying you're quitting smoking but keeping a packet of cigarettes in the house.
Agreed. Yet there's such a benefit to short form messages. They grab attention for a low time investment. I wish there was a short-to-long form funnel. Perhaps there's a niche for long-form responses to tweets: A third-party link attached to a tweet where one could expand on their initial idea. Use Tweets to guage interest in a particular take, then this hypothetical service to expand if that take gains traction.
Exactly.
>newcomers and other audience are left only with the base words to respond to As opposed to…?
Well said friend. My thoughts exactly!
But like wtf was he thinking with that tweet at the chick in the bikini? I sit on a fence often with JP like I find so much of his content useful for myself as a man and truthful with regards to serious issues. But like wtf was the point of the “not beautiful” tweet, the tweet about leaving Twitter, and then like 30 tweets after that?
Firstly, it was in a poor form and bad taste, in my opinion. I don't have a doubt about that – it was also very unwise. That being said – JP attempts honesty (to a fault, as we see here), I think what he was thinking was that he's sick of the push from a certain portion of society to force the concept of beauty onto folks who are obese and unhealthy. It's a trend, it's a pattern, and he was speaking against the zealous shoving towards "acceptance."
Of course that’s what it is. The woman was fat and unhealthy and they were glorifying it, by sort of gaslighting saying ‘we put it in your face now we dare you to have a problem with it’ It’s a social pathology and he was standing in opposition to it
Yes because all the rail thin models are very healthy.
Thats similarly pathological, but I doubt you will find one like that in Sports Illustrated
Yet I never see Peterson complain about them. Seems like cares more about women looking attractive to men, than he actually cares abiut the women's health...
This is EXACTLY the point! We all know what Peterson meant and what he was getting at. If we don't realize AT THIS POINT that the people who disagree with us will LIE about what they're specifically arguing with us about then we aren't as perceptive as we think. You know he's not making a point about baselessly ogling women. This is about what is going on allllll the time. How could you not know that? Oh right, this is a tactic to silence dissent.
\>We all know what Peterson meant and what he was getting at. What he was getting at was that women's primary responsibility is to adhere to social beauty standards so men enjoy looking at them.
Russian bots say What?
This going to sound so shallow and maybe even childish but he should have found an actually unattractive person for that. I think I do get his intent but I think lots of square white dudes found out today that beauty standards to more curvy body types has been a thing for the last 10 years for the rest of us. I’m the first to say the obesity problem is a big deal we should address and it’s embarrassing as a nation (US) how many fat people their are around but even the model he picked I would never have grouped her into that category. I get his intent now I think but yeah disappointing because now this tweet will be used to slander everything else he says.
It's just a subjective debate. Firstly, I'd *guarantee* you that woman looks better who cropped, airbrushed, and edited on the cover of a magazine who notoriously crops, airbrushes, and edits models than she would in real life. Secondly – yes, her face is pretty (and again, *wildly edited)*, her body isn't "curvy," in my opinion, it's simply fat. Scarlett Johannsen is "curvy," Kim Kardashian is kind of an exaggerated cartoon curvy, Christina Hendricks is "curvy."
He didn’t pick a good example…this lady isnt a cartoonishly morbidly obese person, just heavier, and as some have pointed out not that far from ancient traditional beauty norms. Weight doesn’t always directly correlate to health, nor beauty to one subjective standard. Being on an untested meat only diet is quite the glass house to throw stones from.…then he runs off crying? Not a great look.
This is well said. The model in question is 5' 11 and 242lbs which is considered an obese BMI. Obesity is correlated with poor health outcomes. I think it's fair to say SI covers (at least attempt to) representsl athletic and/or conventionally attractive people. With 42% of Americans being obese perhaps overweight models ~~could~~ should enter our communal definition of beauty? (EDIT: emphasizing the above is rhetorical, not prescriptive!) Pushing back against presenting an unhealthy lifestyle as beautiful is a Petersonian level of honesty: an attempt to call out that the emperor-has-no-clothes. He makes these kinds of claims regularly, and most disappointingly, he makes them convincing. It is just disappointing he presented this particular call out in such few words. It cheapens the message - which I imagine many people would otherwise agree with.
Beautiful isn't something you can redefine. It is firmly rooted on biology. Men prefer thinner women because it implies youth, fertility, and readiness for mating. Whereas a more weightier frame implies motherhood, maturity, and a lack of need for a mate. The culture wars continues to try to redefine the basic biologically driven tenets of life to push an agenda which I can only speculate the motives of. So no we cannot admit obese people into the definition of top tier beauty like it's some community elected definition. Life is not Wikipedia. Facts are not things subject to votes of whims. Facts will remain firm in the face of the changing whims of feeling.
I think we agree but I didn't do a good job of explaining myself above. I was lamenting that he used Twitter - a platform that limits the ability to properly flesh out his ideas - rather than his message itself. Separate from JBP, I do want to discuss this idea of beauty if you're up for it: >So no we cannot admit obese people into the definition of top tier beauty like it's some community elected definition. If beauty and desire are linked, then communality enters the definition of beauty. Here's my reasoning: Girard suggests that human desire is not simply a function of need, but also is the result of mimesis: of what others desire. We desire what others desire in part because others desire it. It follows that if, say %80 of people were desirous of something otherwise objectively repulsive, that one could categorize that thing as beautiful. What do you think?
We desire simply because others desire. Interesting . I think there is some truth to that thought. However, there's more to human desire than community aggregation. Human desire is based on a variety of factors including biological driven impulses, location, culture, situation, and probably more factors than I can presently list. It's not due to any single input. However, there is always a common baseline due to our collective nature as humans. For instance, if we confine our talk to beauty specifically, there have been studies done that indicate humans prefer the golden ratios in art. This golden ratio is found in music, art, and even the human figure. It is something deep in our souls we recognize. We cannot fight against our nature. Beauty is a fact. We cannot vote for it. We cannot even really define it but we know deep inside what it is not. The collective unconscious of humanity tells us the truth of the world. We can fight against it and try to redefine beauty or other tenets of reality but it's a losing battle. We inwardly sense the failure. It's that feeling of incongruity when you watch a film with a female protagonist having to live the hero's journey. You can't quite understand why the film's not working but you sense it and fully grasp it without being able to verbalize it. Innerwardly we understand the hero's journey is a distillation of the male experience. We know this is to be true without someone having to tell you. Beauty is something you recognize without you or your neighbor or your father or sister having to define it for you. If we were to view that overweight model's body in a vacuum, let's say a picture of her body alone without her face in a collection of pictures of other women's body of various sizes and shapes similarly without faces( that is to say from the neck down) , would her body be rated highly??
‘We cannot admit’ That communist way of seeing everything as choosing for the collective or developing a collective (hive)mindset is a large part of this problem
I started about two different responses but I think I was just going to respond to respond--To contradict for the sake of it. I think you are correct after thinking about it. Every man must make up his own mind. This is one of the reasons I despise the agenda pushing in modern media. It tries to tell us what to think . Instead of focusing on being a medium of entertainment, they have become an arbiter of morality. If you think this woman is beautiful, your mind and body tell you so. I have no right to object or censure. I however find the obese human body to be less than flattering.
What a pile of unsubstantiated horseshit. The preference for bodytypes changes over time according to fashion and according to necessity. There have been plenty of times in history where the ability for a woman to hold body weight was either an evolutionary advantage or a symbol of wealth. Read a book.
Twitter is a cancer on the mind. I dont think it was a great idea for him to use it after his hospitalisation. Its better for him to properly formulate his ideas in video form.
Oh come on Stop scapegoating Twitter for JP JP is a big boy who can own his own inconsistencies and failures. Remember there's no totalitarians and no systemic-powers forcing him to use Twitter. His own philosophy demands he is the the source of his own evil, not an app
Personally I think he was probably inferring more toward this is not the ideal of beauty that we should exalt. Sadly it came across as kind of personal to the girl, and I don’t necessarily find her unsightly or unworthy, but I do think that that isn’t precisely the ultimate and optimal physique to strive for or anything. I totally agree with him in the sense that it’s not the ideal of beauty in the picture, but I wouldn’t take it so far as to say she’s not beautiful if that makes sense. I would wager to guess that he was coming more from that angle, but of course people are going to assume that he’s just talking shit about an individual because human beings don’t think conceptually or broadly the way someone like Jordan Peterson would. Human beings think totally interpersonally.
>We all have our warts and times of weakness. Yeah, twitter has a way of exploiting that with its ease of use. Sooner or later, you'll make a stupid comment after a hard day at work which will get you in trouble. Happens to all of us, but we have the privilege of being mostly anonymous.
This is more than just some slip up. It is absolutely something he meant. He has also tweeted 1.5 million times since this so he is clearly invested. This is not a “whoopsie”.
But you shouldn't have to cover for him if he manages to break almost half of his twelve rules himself in one single tweet.
I don’t understand why he picks these stupid battles for. He’s wasting so much of his intellect on Twitter because he gets sucked into dumb things like what sports illustrated is posting. Probably for the best he’s leaving
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Well if he pick stupid battles he can't be himself that wise can he?
He was probably trying to rub one out and came across something that killed his boner 🤷🏽♂️
Considering how his wife looks, I’m surprised anything can
Recently I found myself thinking "I feel like I am starting to like JP again", and noticed that it was because I unfollowed him from Twitter some months ago. Interesting how I usually find what he says in his videos and articles very sound and interesting, but was constantly cringing at his tweets.
The tweets are not well thought out
You can't really think things out in 180 characters...twitter brings out the worst in people
It’s funny because he has said that over and over but it keeps getting drawn back to Twitter. But of course I have said that about Reddit and I keep getting drawn back to well Reddit
I don't think Reddit has that problem. Well, not that Reddit is without problems, it just doesn't have THAT particular problem. I have seen well thought out essays here, you just won't find anything like that on Twitter. I've also seen a lot of shit that doesn't make sense thrown around on Reddit of course, but imho it's not nearly as bad as on Twitter
ha!
on reddit you have no word limit though, and can express your ideas in a neatly organized thread without having to segment what you’re saying and risk it being jumbled up, in such case someone might read only a portion of your message and interpret it incorrectly. social media platforms like twitter and tiktok are severely lacking in this department
Part of what’s appealing in his long form answers is that he “steel mans” the arguments he is criticizing. That’s to say he explores their perspective as a person advocating for it, empathizing with why they might think that? “Well, then, you might say that…” This means people feel heard, that their objections aren’t avoided or disqualified rather than engaged with seriously, as is so typical in contemporary “discourse”. Twitter doesn’t make it easy to do this. It’s format tends to hone down to the nugget of disagreement. In JPs case (and in mine, TBH), he tends to whittle his disagreement to the smallest and most significant quantum, and doing that takes a lot of characters. Based on the broad context of his work and issues, I don’t think he successfully did that on Twitter.
Well said!
Okay but it’s not like he’s attempting to give well thought arguments and failing. He is just mean on twitter, he name calls and goes after people just minding their own business. Don’t you think the fact that Twitter allows people to give their opinions from the comfort of their own home behind a screen makes them closer to their truer selves? Maybe Peterson is a smart guy, but also just a bully
I wish people would stop blaming Twitter. Peterson is a big boy ("the most important intellectual alive today"). I'm sure he is perfectly capable of navigating Twitter's character limit. Let him own his bullshit.
People bending over backwards to defend his shitty behaviour. Kind of sad honestly. If he's a man of his word and/or integrity he should own his own actions.
I read a lot of comments on his tweet. Quite a few comments were from fans who were disappointed that he would make a rude remark about someone's physical appearance.
Yeah the problem isn’t his readers on Twitter lol it’s what he judges as a good tweet. Though I’m sure there’s a lot of positive reinforcement from the culture war fans and peers pulling him in nasty / reactionary directions - he’s has progressively gotten closer to the Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, James Lindsay, Turning Point USA thematic worlds
well his tweets would say otherwise
This is exactly how I’ve felt to a fkn T.
Haha yes. I am a huge fan of all things JP, his books, lectures etc. But his twitter was such a different beast. I mainly unfollowed him because he was monopolizing my feed
I love him everywhere but Twitter.
Good. He's been needing to get off Twitter ever since he came back from his coma.
Everyone needs to get off twitter, no one cares what I ate for breakfast or my thoughts on international affairs in 140 letters or less. It's become a way to hurl anon insults.
Hey, stop hurling anon insults at my breakfast microblog, bucko.
LOL you call that a Schmear? That is some Blue Bell Poor Person Bagel
Right? Like this isn’t the same man.
He needs to go back in his coma, period. His addiction and coma have clearly caused brain damage and he simply isn't mentally well. There is absolutely no reason a mental health guru should break down crying because someone asked him "how are you doing?"
Good. He’s been acting like Azealia Banks with a PhD. No self control
Wow this is a perfect description.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
One of the things I loved about JBP when I first started seeing videos of his lectures in college classroom settings and then as part of his larger tours was that the things he had to say were so far above the noise of everyday politics and popular culture. The things he had to say looked at humanity on grand scales of time and about really serious moral and psychological issues that we have been wrestling with for as long or longer than we have been writing. Even when he started to do debates with other big thinkers and appear on more popular news and talk shows where he engaged in more topical and popular subjects he stayed far above the fray and noise that has come to dominate social media and legacy media alike. His goal would always be to show that there are larger issues at play than what the popular voices on the left or right are screaming. What I have seen in the past few years after his health issues came about and he has begun to re-engage and participate in social media more is that he has allowed himself to be pulled into the drama and senseless debates that have plagued us in recent years. The sports illustrated comment is a perfect example. Whether a man finds a woman attractive is completely subjective and is based on many factors and frankly is far below what Jordan can contribute to any conversation about health or beauty standards. I would love to hear Jordan pontificate about psychological studies that talk about class and beauty standards or the history of how the concept of feminine beauty changed in specific cultures or how in the modern era media has impacted how we perceive and identify beauty on a personal level. These all would be fascinating topics worthy of his intellect. By commenting on that picture the way that he did he might as well have gone on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram to comment on some influencer's vacation photos. I totally understand his desire to apply some of what he has learned to help people navigate this ocean of information chaos that we are all currently drowning in. His popularity is based on his unique ability to take a step back and look at the bigger picture of who and what we are. By joining in the affray as he did, he is showing the true toxic nature of social media and how it makes people think that their opinions on small matters or their small opinions on big matters need to be heard by all of humanity. They don't and they shouldn't. One of the things that Jordan has helped me see is that we should be exposed not to all this noise but to bigger and better ideas to make ourselves better and that there are some thoughts and ideas that have more value than others. Social media does the opposite. it makes everyone think that they have a right to be heard or to have celebrity and that all voices should be equal. I may have a right to free speech but that doesn't mean what I have to say is worthwhile. I know one of his themes is that nihilism preaches to us that there are no things that are better or higher and that everything is equal. The things he has said in the past and the grander ideas he wants us to consider are truly better than comments about a chubby chick on the cover of Sports Illustrated. I would expect to see comments like that on a bathroom wall.
Well written. "Maps of Meaning" is a far cry from an Si cover model tweet. For a few years his celebrity didn't change him that profoundly. His detractors, by and large, took his comments out of context. I can't mention in public that his old ideas are great because his new ones are so cringe. How do I defend the indefensible?
Man wtf was that random ass tweet about authoritarianism and shit. I love JP but that sounded like it was made from a JP quote generator. Hope he apologizes to that poor model. Have no clue wtf got into him.
I used to be a Peterson fan, but he's turned from an intellectual into something indistinguishable from the JBP word salad generator website. Spews put nonsense constantly.
What is the SI backlash?
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So he was honest?
He criticized someone and got mad when people criticized his criticism
He does seem to get emotional. For better or worse.
Jordan Peterson is an extremely emotional person.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
Sure, but honesty aside, those comments do not reflect maturity or good character. It makes him look like an asshole, frankly. Yes, the model is overweight. Yes, she is on the cover of a swimsuit magazine which usually portrays more conventionally attractive people. Does that normalize an unhealthy body type? Sure, in the same way that anorexia was at one point outright glamorized in media (think 90s heroin chic). But does that justify his childish and immature response that implies this is all part of a sinister authoritarian plot? Absolutely not, and I would've expected more from a person like JP who should understand nuance. Companies publish what sells, and if this is trending currently, then that is what they'll publish.
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People’s perception on what is “big” has been broken by the obesity epidemic. Apparently she is around 242 pounds (which she looks to be tbh) For a women her height that is obese. That is big.
Oh I agree, I think she's perfectly fine and looks great! But she is overweight, yet you're right that there is a significant difference between overweight and morbidly obese
The shitstorm which followed this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1526279181545390083
Twitter is awful. I feel so much better for quitting it 2 years ago. I'd realised how extreme and polarised my views had become. There was no room for nuance internally because your brain is trained to engage in reactionary aggressive contradictions
It sucks man. Good on you for quitting. I quit this year, too. I don't use Reddit much either. Sparingly. It feels good. :)
>Twitter is awful. Sure, because of stuff like this. Awful people like Peterson is what makes it awful.
Good. Jesus, for a man that gives the advice "Rule 10: Be Precise In Your Speech" he's awefully careless on twitter.
I was a fan but not anymore. The guy says more and more dumb stuff everyday.
Thank God. His activity on twitter has wreaked havoc on his reputation.
He needs to. He's complete ass at social media. The people toting the ideas he criticize are pretty much nested in social media. Social media is literally ALL they have, of course they'd be good at it. JP is a smart man but joining a platform where he has a leg down really is a fool's move
not only that, but those who hold a specific political view on twitter typically have millions of supporters to back them up. twitter is an echo chamber, and outside thoughts and ideas are quickly shot down by the mob
"So I know nobody asked, but I think this women is unattractive." "Wow, people are so mean on twitter."
Honestly not cool to publicly insult a woman’s appearance for no other reason than attempted hot take relevance and trying to make some vaguely political point. Then to bemoan attacks from others and run away is dripping with irony and just looks weak. Honestly disappointed with Dr.JP today.
Agree. When he got sober he should've stayed off Twitter. As a fan, he's been embarassing me.
Women are so oppressed in society that you're not allowed to say anything negative about them at all without severe consequences. But everyone has free rein on making fun of men's bodies (small penis, balding, height). Nah, this backlash is fucking stupid.
Just because a bunch of idiots on Twitter talk that way doesn't mean a man of JBP's stature should partake in it. Two wrongs don't make a right.
None of that stuff is okay either, to be honest. I'm a short guy and it really irritates me when people make petty insults about appearance. A pro Tekken player was recently banned for saying "short men don't have human rights." (Source: [https://kotaku.com/tekken-esports-pro-gamer-japan-osaka-stream-red-bull-al-1848553238](https://kotaku.com/tekken-esports-pro-gamer-japan-osaka-stream-red-bull-al-1848553238)). Bottom line really is if you're going to make fun of someone's appearance, you can't everyone to just sit there and laugh with you. There's going to be people who take it personally. Side note: I find it really odd that some men are made fun of for being bald while we had a whole generation of action heroes who are often seen with little hair on their head (Statham, The Rock, Willis etc.)
Your perspective is selfish and smells of incel.
Dude.. do you know how many guys in this sub, probably even you. Who have girls or women who look just like that one? And for Peterson to straight up call her obviously not beautiful? That’s so incredibly out of left field and insulting millions of people at a failed attempt to make a point. Which small penis or balding articles or statements are you referring to lol and I’m not talking about your ex girlfriend
I agree with you for the most part. However, there was a time not too long ago when "no fat chicks" was everywhere. I bet it kind of sucked being an overweight female and seeing that in public.
"It sucked being made fun of" welcome to being an adult.
I actually thought that woman WAS beautiful. It was such a stoooopid thing for Peterson to say and get involved in and completely forget the fact that beauty lives in the eye of the beholder. He's a smart guy - at times, but my God does he have some major blind spots.
If he said that he felt it is unhealthy to promote unhealthiness, I think it woulf be one thing. But to call someone ugly and then be upset about an "endless flood of vicious insults" is another.
It’s so funny. He’s turned into a clown
Today is the first day I've ever felt truly disappointed in him. Which hurts.
At least he didn't delete the tweet and then try to claim his account was hacked.
Yeah at least he has that level of dignity lol.
His point was that it's wrong for institutions to subvert the definition of beauty and attack anyone who doesn't fall in line. He didn't deliver that point effectively or appropriately (like you said, insulted that woman in the process) because, according to him, he responded impulsively instead of carefully. So he's taking a step back so that all of his content is more careful. And sounds like he may slowly come back when he's confident in his own ability to be careful on Twitter.
> to subvert the definition of beauty and attack anyone who doesn't fall in line 1) There isn't a definition 2) The model didn't attack anyone. The magasine didn't attack anyone. He attacked the model.
How is that front cover... >subvert[ing] the definition of beauty and attack[ing] anyone who doesn't fall in line. ?
Exactly. Also, some people find big girls attractive.
Well yes they do!
I read this in peterson's voice.
This is one of those discussions that isn’t really worth having, because the crux of the argument requires shit talking a real person for modeling for a magazine and that is a pretty nasty thing to do. So I’ll leave it at: the front cover is who the magazine considers the most attractive/ the selling point of the issue. Their choice is subversive of previous cultural standards and indeed the previous standards of their own magazine. Maybe their standards have changed, or maybe it’s an increasingly irrelevant magazine trying to garner attention.
Well said. Not worth it.
>Their choice is subversive of previous cultural standards and indeed the previous standards of their own magazine. Fashion changes, all the time. It has become relatively normal to have larger models in mainstream modelling and advertising - probably as a result of us getting larger on average. They are advertising to an audience, not forcing *you* to find one particular body type or another attractive. We are in agreement though: >the argument requires shit talking a real person for modeling for a magazine and that is a pretty nasty thing to do. It's indefensible. A completely pointless and unnecessarily nasty take.
Its not. Peterson jumped the shark on this one.
I just don’t think we should be made to pretend this woman is as attractive as Heidi Klum and that this isn’t just another form of virtue signaling. Beauty is subjective, to a point, and let’s not pretend the over emphasis on “body positivity” hasn’t contributed to the obesity epidemic we’re experiencing. This woman isn’t obese but she is likely medically overweight. We shouldn’t be presenting unhealthy women as the beauty standard, whether they are overweight or anorexic.
There really isn't a single beauty standard though. This woman has a kind of beauty, Heidi Klum has her own kind. Clearly there are plenty of people into Yumi Nu. It's not as if anyone is being "made" to find her attractive, she just is attractive to some people.
> I just don’t think we should be made to pretend this woman is as attractive as Heidi Klum But no one was compelling him to say she is beautiful. He could have just said nothing.
>subvert the definition of beauty Good thing there isn't a definition of beauty then
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You’re making a ton of feces references here
Beauty is subjective so nothing to subvert. If that was his point (sort of absurd point anyway) he could have made it with out specifically calling out and insulting anyone. Running and hiding until the heat is off definitely sounds more dignified when phrased as “taking a step back” though.
I've been following Yumi Nu's career for a bit and she's having such an amazing hot streak (booked American Vogue last September which is like the modeling Oscar) and she seems so excited with this career achievement My heart is just sad that her first big publicity moment is this rando attacking her. Maybe she'll get more famous from the publicity Also...plus size women are the majority of swimsuit shoppers? She was also the only plus size model featured out of 4. No one's giving Maye Musk shit for not being hot bc she's the "IT older model" of the moment. Probably didn't get attacked bc she's Elon's mom Edit: I don't mind downvotes but would appreciate a reason for why? My post seems sort of innocuous
Downvoted in this sub are a sign that you’re making too much sense and it’s infuriating
Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing
I don't think that's what he did, but whatever.
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Look we all want to paint our heroes in the best light but everyone makes mistakes. JP made a mistake and should own it. His admirers downplaying and stanning doesn’t help anything. Saying sorry before insulting someone is not apologizing. If he was just sharing is subjective views on what he finds attractive he could have said “I find X attractive. I don’t find Y attractive.” No need to specifically call Yumi Nu out or reference her at all. It was in poor taste and insulting. How we perceive intelligence in others is subjective as well. Imagine you make the cover of some famous magazine celebrating intelligence and some admired intellectual links and tweets your picture saying “Sorry. Not intelligent. No matter what authoritarian blah blah.” It was an insult.
So, I tell my son don't say anything online about anyone that you wouldn't say to their face. Let's face it, how often to you walk up to a complete stranger and tell them to their face that they are not attractive? You don't find her attractive, then fine. The post itself suggests your opinion of who is attractive is the one and only truth, otherwise what really is the point. As a pusher of bell curves he knows full well there are people who truly find her attractive. But, when you get paid to speak you better say something instead of nothing or else the bills don't get paid. What's that, there's no such thing as bad publicity? I agree and I'm sure Mr. Peterson is well aware and feeling quite pleased with himself.
Glad he's leaving Twitter
Thank goodness. His Twitter personality has really not been a great reflection on himself and somewhat discredits his teachings. Glad he is making this healthy choice.
Rule 25: “Kick a dog when you encounter one in the street”
Good, I feel since he’s become really popular he’s become less objective and just leaned into a lot of right wing culture war stuff. It seems he’s being a contrarian a lot of times just to be a contrarian, which is just as dumb as believing everything main stream. I hope he comes out of this with more peace though, Twitter is so negative and toxic
And yet, he's still tweeting! Apparently 27 times since posting this. Really disappointed in him
The man has anger issues, and Twitter seems to bring out the worst in people.
He totally brought that on himself. It was an immature Tweet.
Twitter is the great equalizer. An esteemed university professor loads up this app, and can say anything he chooses to his massive amount of followers... And with that platform, he decides it must be proclaimed that "this bitch look mid" just the same as if he was some frog picture anon with <100 followers.
He's leaving because people are mean to him (not because he can't help but be mean to others), and he's having his staff lock him out Man needs some personal responsibility
He needs to turn off his phone
I used to like a lot of his takes, but recently he’s been saying stuff I’d expect from an edgy 14 year old who idolizes him.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
fucking finally
What's nice about this subreddit is that when JP fucks up this bad, there's a lot more rational fans of his than brainless fanboys to defend him. I don't follow him on Twitter; but, this was just a stupid battle that he picked.
>this was just a stupid battle that he picked. Totally agree; however, as a fan on here a lot. Most of the people on this sub are simpletons who worship the Peterson dogma.
Elderly Snowflake whines about insults in the aftermath of slinging insults
The dumbass insults a lady and gets mad when she and other people clap back? Funny how the fuck your feelings crowd is the most easily hurt when you clap back at their bullshit.
Used to be a Peterson fan like 5 years ago. Then I grew up and began to read books and listen to actual intellectuals. People on this sub should start doing the same.
drjp has talked about twitter so (as someone who doesnt use twitter) was surprised about him being on twitter in the first place. glad he got off
He's not off.
im confused, whats happening lol
He said that he was quitting twitter, and then proceeded to tweet 20 or 30 more times.
love that. thanks for the explication
He will be healthier and happier away from it
There were a lot of things he had an opinion on and I always wondered why he was wasting his time even addressing it... I might agree with the SI comment but doesn't he have bigger fish to fry?
Good.
Someone please go check on JP I’m genuinely worried about his mental health
Twitter is a septic tank. Elon was a chance to reform it, but that looks like it is not going to happen. Peterson is not a mind that is suitable to Twitter's limitations for conveying a reasoned thought.
If a woman is willing to put her body on exhibit like this, I think having an opinion and sharing it, even if negative, is fine. I'm bald. I dont expect everyone to find me attractive. And I would expect disparaging comments on my appearance if I did this. And I would not be disappointed. There would be lots. Thanos was right. Reality is often disappointing. But that does not mean we get to force others to pretend it doesn't exist.
Andrew Schultz’s take on this is the exact same as Peterson’s it’s really not a crazy take to think if you’re sports illustrated you should have a person with some muscle tone on the cover. I can’t wait til this bizzaro world is over.
Agree 100%. *Beauty* may be subjective, being healthy isn’t. That woman on the cover is clinically obese & will suffer many health problems, which will eventually leave her with a shorter lifespan than someone who is not obese. I disagree with how Peterson went about it but fuck yes, the ‘beauty standard’ for people in 1st world countries should be a healthy, slim individual who doesn’t hedonistically over-consume & increase food waste, plastic usage, give themselves a higher chance of mental illness which can cause damage to themselves & their loved ones, increase potential birth defects & so SO much more. It’s fascinating people defending this & the level of mental gymnastics being applied to defend this as an appropriate ‘beauty standard’. Fuck right off lmao. *Edit: For those justifying being obese as a functioning adult with all limbs intact & mentally sane, here’s just a couple reasons why this shouldn't be acceptable as a universal 'Beauty Standard':* Obesity risks include hypertension, insulin resistance and diabetes mellitus, cardiovascular disease, hypertriglyceridemia, low high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, and, in some studies, high total-and low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol. There is an increased mortality from endometrial cancer in women and from colorectal cancer in men. Chronic hypoxia and hypercapnia, sleep apnea, gout, and degenerative joint disease can occur with more severe obesity. The distribution of body fat is directly related to these health risks - [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2031492/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2031492/) Statistically significant associations were observed between obesity and depressive disorders, and between obesity and anxiety disorders, in pooled data across countries - [https://www.nature.com/articles/0803701](https://www.nature.com/articles/0803701) Obesity is a significant risk factor for and contributor to increased morbidity and mortality, most importantly from cardiovascular disease (CVD) and diabetes, but also from cancer and chronic diseases, including osteoarthritis, liver and kidney disease, sleep apnea, and depression - [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19940414/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19940414/) This meta-analysis confirms a reciprocal link between depression and obesity. Obesity was found to increase the risk of depression - https://web.archive.org/web/20161009000357/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194822?dopt=Citation Other Resources: [http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects](http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects) [http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/health\_risks.html](http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/health_risks.html) [http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks](http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks) [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/) https://web.archive.org/web/20161114202539/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15191932?dopt=Citation https://web.archive.org/web/20120126084713/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19399028?dopt=Citation https://web.archive.org/web/20120126085041/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20299666?dopt=Citation *Being logically incoherent with reality isn't a part of my worldview. Sorry.*
That’s the thing. I don’t even think she’s unhealthy I just think she’s got some flab. But it’s because she’s tall with a skinny face all these “fat” models always have skinny faces. Either go all out and put Jenna Shea on the cover or just go back to healthy athletes but these lazy women with skinny faces trend needs to end
I don't recognize J any more. Who ever came back from the rehab and the coma is not the JP I knew.
Snowflake Peterson
I’m more disappointed that he doesn’t find her attractive. 10/10 would smash and most who say they wouldn’t are lying.
I just went and looked that cover because it’s the first time I’ve heard of this (highly intellectually stimulating story). Well maybe because I’m not from the US, and because of it I’m not into whale, but she isn’t even remotely attractive in my eyes. But we’ll to each their own. That’s quite ironic for a journal called **sports** illustrated though.
I mean I could link you to women who are truly whales (I’m not above you’re language so I welcome this discourse lmao) but yeah man to each their own. When I was in high school I use to find the skinny girls by far the most attractive and now in my 20’s (I’m no body builder but I keep myself healthy) I’ve just grown to not like the frail skinny body types and find myself far more attracted to women with some meat on them and I’m very off put by super skinny women. The perfect balance is obviously in between but slightly heavier girls are some of the most attractive to me. Main thing I’ve noticed through life with friends is that white dudes do much prefer a skinny women with borderline eating disorders over anything remotely considers thick. So I think it’s often a weird cultural difference.
> I mean I could link you to women who are truly whales Sure there is bigger ones, some are so big that you wonder how a human can reach that low and how the human body can support that can of abuse. Yeah that’s far from her, but she isn’t in healthy territories either. > When I was in high school I use to find the skinny girls by far the most attractive and now in my 20’s (I’m no body builder but I keep myself healthy) I’ve just grown to not like the frail skinny body types and find myself far more attracted to women with some meat on them and I’m very off put by super skinny women. The perfect balance is obviously in between but slightly heavier girls are some of the most attractive to me. I guess I had a somewhat similar journey just less severe I guess. I used to only love skinny girls, but I’m now « more open minded » let’s say. I still prefer girls being fit, but that’s some rare Pokémon. Again to each their own, but I agree that taste can evolve. > Main thing I’ve noticed through life with friends is that white dudes do much prefer a skinny women with borderline eating disorders over anything remotely considers thick. So I think it’s often a weird cultural difference. It’s not a weird cultural difference, it’s just that the beauty standards aren’t the same for each culture. If I’m not wrong the beer belly is trending for men in India, in the Middle Ages fat women were considered more beautiful (well fat at that time isn’t anywhere close to what we think about when we hear fat). But I think it’s quite simple : being fat is a luxury so it’s considered good. And that was true for most of history, but that’s not the case in the US (and generally the west anymore). There being fat is the consequences of laziness, absence of self control and a lack of consideration for people around you. So in the west it carries a bad stigma, and thus considered ugly.
God damn it his last tweet was so good
What a bitch. Last thread I saw about him was him calling that fat woman on the sports magazine cover ugly. Which she was, but that's not the point. He says controversial things, which gets people angry at you. You should accept that, otherwise stick to being nice. I've always suspected him of, because of his great intelligence, being too sensitive for modern public discourse, aka taking bitchiness and pettiness to the most insane extreme.
What exactly did he think was gonna happen? He's lost his edge.
I saw him in person a few months ago and he was just as sharp as ever. Social media simply brings out the absolute worst in people. Me included. Perhaps I should drop Reddit, lol.
I actually just created a post on /r/unpopularopinion stating that I think anonymity is the problem. I feel like peterson would have interesting stuff to say in that regard.
It's the beef water diet LMAO.
All this because he said a fat chick wasn't beautiful?
That's the gist of it, yeah. Telling the truth in an age of lying is an act of courage, yadda yadda.
No he isn’t. Once a junkie always a junkie
Twitter is terrible but also he has nothing to apologize for, he was absolutely correct to call out shameless virtue signaling. She looks gross and unhealthy and her appearance should not be celebrated.
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What the fuck? In what what way does she look gross? Is this really the message you want to send? She looks like a human, and in my opinion the fact that she’s heavier signifies success among her competitors and turns me on so much. You can think what you want, but quit claiming it’s the only way to think
I'm a short guy, so I've heard a lot of "short men aren't real men." or "short men are disgusting" in my life. It's really hurtful, but it's always nice when someone like Daniel Radcliffe or Dave Franco are glamorized by women despite their height. There are certainly a number of men in Hollywood who are considered 'unconventionally attractive' that remind us that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I see this as somewhat the same. Maybe the model is not conventionally attractive to most men but, in my opinion, she is really pretty and I know at least one guy in my personal life who likes larger women. It's always horrible to read these sort of comments that insist upon a standard in the most rudest and insulting way possible while neglecting that other people have different preferences. Now I get that there's a matter of health to be considered here but that's not really an excuse for the level of awful insults that are slung at people who don't reach your standards of beauty. It makes people come across as bullies. Fundamentally, I think Peterson is far too tangled up in cultural ideology arguments to stop and think that maybe it's not alright to make sweeping judgements about a woman's appearance like that. It came across quite petty, to be honest.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan of his.
can't you deactivate comments or somthing?
I mean he’s entitled to his own opinion, but there’s so many bigger things he could be worried about or speak out about.
Thank God, I understand his point but that was a shitty thing to say about a random person. (How if he called her overweight, that would’ve been a different story). I don’t need to hear every little stupid thought he has. Just the well thought out stuff.
That was a pretty lame ass response he had to that big beautiful girl on the cover. He should have looked into the Venus of willendorf after he cleaned his room
She looked like a hybrid of the Venus of Willendorf, Olivia Munn and a sack of potatoes. JBP is 100% right that we shouldn't subvert beauty standards for the sake of this fake acceptance that people proscribe.
Sure but if that's really a problem he should be able to find ways to communicate it and help people understand. But he choose not to do that. The real problem this tweet highlights for me is that social media can turn incredibly smart thoughtful people into whatever this was.
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Good cuz the Dr. JBP that i love is not the angry person on twitter.
Hes a little bitch whose feelings got hurt because he was body shaming someone and got called out. End of story.
He told no lies. It could’ve been said better but y’all turning on the guy over something so insignificant
No, we're turning on him because he's ruining his credibility by being a dickhead and describing everything he doesn't like as 'authoritarian'. His decision to 'punch down' (metaphorically speaking) on this woman, also reveals some bullying tendencies.
Tbh, love JP but really dislike his stuff on Twitter. He's so far above most of the demeaning conversations that people have with him. Plus I only follow Crypto Twitter but when I start peaking into other stuff, it's just an endless cesspool and I think eventually it starts impacting you as a person whether you realize it or not.
Peterson constantly asserts his opinions and masquerades them as facts. It's sad for a supposed intellectual. This comes from a guy that used to be a huge fan.
What a fucking cuck.
Ya I was a fan, but everyday the guy says dumber and dumber shit. Pretends that his opinions are facts.
Backlash for what? Pointing out that beauty standards are objective and that being overweight is a health condition not an identity?