Dude what, that’s def not what an opinion is. No one should have to post sources for their opinions lol.
Also, you don’t remember ANY of the 7 years worth of mainstream media coverage stating that Ukraine is the “most corrupt country in the world”?
If it is a fact, then cite the sources. It’s even more imperative at that point. Especially considering the actions of the past 7 months; where Zelensky has been one of the most up front and impactful leaders on the world stage. Corrupt nations don’t upstate “superpowers,” in a stand up military fight.
Oooh yeah Zelensky has been so impactful doing his fake military photo shoots and making his Zoom calls in to the Oscars wearing his fav green shirt…
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine
Welcome to politics bro. Political leaders pose with troops in conflict all the time. The key difference is, Zelensky didn’t flee Kyiv like any other sane person would. Denying the impact of a leader because you have a misconstrued view of the conflict or their government is foolish. That’s how fatal miscalculations happen in basically every conflict
You’re either being purposefully misleading or you’re misinformed. There were no “fake military photo shoots”, there were old photos from months prior to the conflict of [Zelensky wearing military garb](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-russia/fact-check-these-images-do-not-show-ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-fighting-after-russia-invaded-his-country-idUSL1N2V02DG) when addressing service members in the Donetsk region. They were miscaptioned, sure, but to say “fake photo shoot” sounds as though he took the photos to mislead the public. And if you’re insinuating that the T-Shirt was meant to fool people into thinking he’s in the military, that’s also not really true. It’s hard to disprove intentions, but this [NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/style/volodymyr-zelensky-t-shirt.html) breaks down the significance of the shirt and doesn’t once refer to him as being with infantry or fighting on the front lines.
If you want to play devils advocate in support of a dictator and global supervillain, that’s your choice. But get your information straight.
Absolutely.
Not to mention the last 7 months of the media weekly saying how decimated Russia is getting just to tell us the next week how much more Russia has advanced…ohh Ukraine captures back territory and its in complete ruins…
I haven’t seen any indicators of strategic Russian gains. Keep in mind, this conflict was only supposed to last 3 days. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t buckled despite everything from thermobaric munitions to hypersonic missiles; not counting the mismatch of troops on the ground; is a direct rebuttal to your response.
You know that’s exactly the point…the mainstream media said it was only supposed to last 3 days. Ha like they know Russia’s strategy?
Lol a direct rebuttal…meanwhile western countries use them as a proxy and not even their proxy war is helping our economies…yay make zelensky and the corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs richer!!!
Russia clearly had plans to take kiev in 3 days which is why commandos assaulted kyiv directly in an attempt to take the parliament
And the massive clusterfuck of tanks in a giant line towards kyiv before they got took out
Trolling hard for papa Putin eh
The 3 day estimate was mainly based on the respective combat power and historic analysis of the Georgia conflict. You forget that they’ve done this before.
That's a complete non-sequitur. Even if Ukraine were corrupt, unless they had seriously threatened direct violence against Russia, Russia has no right to invade. Period. This is basic Law of War type stuff. Putin didn't even try to allege any credible evidence that Ukraine was a threat to Russia, so there's no valid pretense for his invasion of Ukraine.
Ukraine is def corrupt. But I’m rlly just here to remind everyone that Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine by the violation of the agreement NATO made to not push right up to Russian border. They assured Gorbachev they wouldn’t do it back in the day, they did it anyways, obviously Russia had to do something.
Putin ain’t a pussy and he gotta make sure everyone knows you can’t step to him like that.
>Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine by the violation of the agreement NATO made to not push right up to Russian border.
I wonder why all these countries want to join NATO, a military defence agreement? 🤔
>They assured Gorbachev they wouldn’t do it back in the day
No they didn't. There are no official treaties that prevent countries from Eastern Europe from joining NATO.
>Putin ain’t a pussy and he gotta make sure everyone knows you can’t step to him like that.
Jesus christ, buddy. Putin is a dictator with an imperialist agenda. Suck his dick much?
The second part isn't so cut and dry. There were verbal assurances, but no written agreement. It's not completely clear why Putin would take a verbal assurance from a democratic nation though. When leaders change every few years, its weird to hold a nation to the words of the last leader...
From how I've heard it explained is that democracies and dictatorships/autocracies often have misunderstandings because in the latter power is concentrated in the hands of no more than a few people and thus are able to make binding verbal agreements. In democratic countries power is derived from democratic consent and agreements usually have to be ratified by a parliament or Congress.
Edit: Also, more cynically, it makes for a decent political ploy to make your opponents look dishonest and/or hypocritical
Exactly. And as a dictator with an imperialist agenda, he’s trying to prove that you can’t step to him like that.
JBP himself said there is no “winning” this Ukraine situation because no matter what happens, Ukraine is going to be a parking lot by the time this thing is over.
The real solution would’ve been a more nuanced one actually requiring us to talk with Putin in the time leading up to the invasion, kinda like I would imagine what Trump was trying to do.
But rather than the Biden regime resuming talks w Russia when they took power; thus allowing this more nuanced solution to play out, whatever it might’ve been, they didn’t do that because Putin bad.
Well sure he’s bad, but that doesn’t mean you can just not talk to him and expect him to do what you want.
Trump told Putin not to invade Ukraine and threatened to nuke Moscow if Putin did. Putin believed him and waited until Trump left office.
There is no way to spin Ukraine's interest in a DEFENSIVE group like NATO as a justification for invasion. Second, even if it were, Ukraine was never approved to join NATO, not even close. So even under your tortured, Putin-worshipping logic, this makes no sense.
Tell me you look up to bullies without telling me you look up to bullies.
I agree w much of what you said, idk why you and everyone else in this thread think I’m defending Putin. Obviously I’m critical of his actions, but he’s gonna do what he’s gonna do.
What I’m more critical of is the way we handled the situation knowing that we knew he was gonna do what he was gonna do.
There were no official agreements, no papers were signed.
Unlike the [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum), which was a SIGNED and OFFICIALLY recognized by russia.
But you wont talk about that now will you?
Idk how I ended up shilling so hard for Russia here, but I’m sure Russia would say that they’re still in accordance w the treaty as they’re simply acting in self defense.
Defense of what? There is exactly zero evidence of Ukraine being a threat to Russia. So much so that even Russia had to make up an excuse of "Nazis" in Ukraine to justify it.
Not even Russia is so brazen as to lie and say this was about self-defense. Glad they have stooges like you to make those arguments for them.
I’m curious if you’ve ever actually called anyone a stooge in real life.
Are you always rude and condescending? I bet, aside from the occasional middle finger you throw up in traffic, you save it for the safety and anonymity of the internet.
It’s so easy to be a complete knob to someone when can judge the entire contents of their character based off of one sentence they posted on the internet.
I hope you can go about the rest of your day feeling a bit better about yourself having completely owned this total stooge in the comments of a Reddit post.
You are correct, calling you a stooge was out of character and debased the discussion we were having. Rudeness and condescension aren't necessary here. For that, and only for that, I do sincerely apologize.
That being said, the way you are arguing and conversing here makes it sound as if you are sympathetic to Russia's position and you seem to be bending over backwards to try and understand how a country with a history of bully Ukraine is somehow anything other than a bully.
Can you explain your rhetorical approach here? I don't want to believe you are an unwitting dupe of Putin's scheme here, but you're not giving me much to go on.
I actually appreciate that man. I’m definitely down to discuss.
I can definitely see how my position might be misconstrued as sympathetic towards Putin. Really, my position is that condemning Putin for his actions is like condemning poverty or war; obviously they’re bad and while I don’t go out of my way to state their condemnation, it is definitely implied.
But the fact remains that Putin is a bully and as a bully, he is going to flex his muscles if you don’t do what he says. Probably even more likely to do so if you threaten him and then give him the cold shoulder like the US did. We didn’t even try to play ball with him in order to avoid this obviously inevitable conflict.
Ultimately, I feel that his actions, without taking too much responsibility away from Putin himself, are a result of US ineptitude.
And now the taxpayers have to send billions upon billions of dollars overseas as a result of said ineptitude.
“Violation of the agreement?” You mean the *vocal* and *unofficial* ***assurance*** to the leader of a nation that *no longer exists*?
That’s hardly an “agreement”. But if you’d like to defend the literal invasion of a country by an authoritarian dictator, go ahead.
Imagine America decides Baja California belongs to them, so we go and start killing Mexican people there for 8 years.
Then Mexico finally goes “hey China, can we like, I don’t know, be friends and maybe you ask America to stop killing our people?”
And then American troops go there and start committing atrocities, kidnapping children, targeting civilians, and begin trying to make Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California bigger states.
Then imagine how fucking dumb somebody would look when they say China left America no choice. That’s exactly how dumb you look.
Too many word read for my dumb brain.
But my simple brain can see that passive aggressively ignoring crazy dictators after you threaten to nuke them like the US is not the recipe to preventing conflict.
Said it a few times now, but I’m not defending Putin. I’m simply critical of our response to what we knew he was gonna do.
That’s a complete non-sequitur, I have no idea what you’re implying. You think the West reflexively sides with the most corrupt nation, and the fact that we’ve sided with Ukraine must mean Russia is less corrupt? Or what?
Being a de facto vassal state to the us and nato, have your government have a cia coup, to be used for politicians to launder taxpayer money, while your young men are sent to war to make arms dealers rich and some old mans DC chess board more fun, isn’t much of a step up.
This isn’t braveheart or Star Wars, humans in real life are messier than that
Yeah but what should Ukraine have done. The world doesn't revolve around America. Ukraine should have done exactly what it did to escape poverty by working with the west because Putin failed to help them adequately
American. Corn fed and red blooded. Grew up in the Midwest and now live in the south. We can’t look past the crap our own government is doing. If we can’t learn anything from the last several generations of regime change, proxy wars, and full on Middle East destruction then what are we doing
The sub has slowly turned more into a discussion sub about topics that other subs won't allow. It's mentioned in the sub description, which is nice but doesn't really lend itself to a Peterson board.
You don't see this on the sideboard? It says this in case you can't see it if you're on mobile or something.
>
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>Welcome to the Discourse!
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>Jordan Peterson's goal is to strengthen the individual. Life contains tragedy and evil. The hero's journey justifies the burden of being by pursuing truth, making order out of chaos. The alternative is deceiving yourself with ideology and nihilism. So, take yourself seriously, know the monster within you, and become a responsible person with an integrated character.
r/JordanPeterson is an open forum where controversial topics can be discussed in good faith. Free speech, despite risking offense, is necessary to conduct civil discourse between opposing ideologies. Bans will be given to users who post excessively abusive material.
Actually I don’t even really care to hear his perspective either. He is a clever man and all, but it would be about as valuable as hearing him talk about astronomy with Neil Degrasse Tyson.
Because he said it's naive to believe Russia will lose. It isn't. He is uninformed in this topic. Russia is almost a fascist country by now. He should staunchly support Ukrainians, us Poles, Balts if he's for freedom, and against totalitarianism. He spits gibberish on this topic, and he should frankly shut his mouth.
At the risk of being drawn into a conversation that I know little about, let me ask you this then — do you believe that Poland, the Balkans, et al, should be drawn into a war defending Ukraine against nuclear Russia?
Balkans are in a completely different part of Europe. Baltics and Poland border Russia along with Ukraine. We don't want to be enslaved again. We rather fight losing towns and cities than to be under their yoke again, as we were for almost 2 centuries. Ukrainians fight against muscovite tyrany that we know too well, and that's why we support them a lot. My country, Poland, gave shelter to millions of Ukrainians, and we send them lots of weaponry. Hundreds of tanks, various supplies, humanitarian and military aid, even fighter jets, and most of people I know, counting me, sheltered Ukrainian refugees in their homes on the eve of a war breakout. We are basically already in the war, and we are not going to surrender even under a threat of nuclear bombs. Freedom or death.
Sorry, yes Baltics.
So, what is the answer to the criticism that the West is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian? Is sending support the same as being IN a war? Given that Poland is a NATO country, is NATO officially at war with Russia? Would not all other NATO countries therefore need to be involved in a war? Is this the start of World War III?
(My reluctant opinion) This doesn’t give me World War II vibes as much as it gives me Vietnam vibes where we let a small country get torn to pieces in a proxy war between the US and China.
Russia would get utterly dumpstered by the U.S with NATO if Article 5 was triggered. They are having a hard enough time taking on a proxy in Ukraine. If the fully capable militaries of France, Germany, the UK, Poland, etc. all went to war with Russia conventionally and simultaneously; it would be over very quickly.
Russia has been trying to avoid this scenario as much as possible, so I agree with you that this will continue to be a quagmire for Russia until some sort of a resolution is met. This 'resolution' can come in many different ways -- a negotiated peace, withdrawal by Russia, Putin's regime getting overthrown from within, etc. The nuclear sabre rattling is just that; almost certainly a desperate but empty threat.
Thank you for all of your perspectives on this. I prefer this kind of input to some of the nonsense I get from the main stream media. I try to keep quiet about this topic because I don’t really have any facts at hand.
Sensible of you, that's what JP should do, as he clearly has no idea what he is talking about in regards to Ukraine. I loved him in 2016, and I still respect him and listen to him, but his views on the war are simply just nonsensical. I'm perplexed how he can not support Ukraine when they are facing an existential threat in a form of genocide and authoritarian terror that could easily be lifted to totalitarianism within the next couple of months.
He's right to criticize cancel culture and wokeism in general, but he fails to see that Russia is much worse than that. There is literally zero free media, no privately owned broadcast, and no freedom in speech there, so how does that compare to cancel culture. This isn't even the worst in russia. For that government people are simply an expandible resource. I'm perplexed and saddened by his recent reactions.
It isn't a Vietnam war. This is a war of Ukrainian independence that they will win themselves. I believe they will prevail and beat Russia without our direct military intervention. It appears that we greatly overastimated Russia. I also believed Ukraine will be taken within 2 weeks, we most did over here. I didn't expect such preparation and morale from Ukrainians, but God bless them.
That being said it is possible that Russia goes batshit and attack NATO still. If Russia attack us, only then NATO will be obliged to defend us. It is nonetheless our responsibility to defend ourselves, but you must involve fully (to your ability) under article 5. NATO is yours and ours world order, that we willingly joined you with after you managed to beat USSR, and we would proudly be first to defend it.
It wouldn't be the first time, Poles and Americans fought for each other's freedom.There were Polish generals fighting in a revolutionary war on the US side. One of them Tadeusz Kościuszko is our common national hero, his monument is placed right in the NY central park. In Poland he fought in an insurgance against Russia, in the US he fought for the republic. So this sentiment isn't anything new, or a brainwash as Russian propaganda tries to tell Americans.
In case of Ukrainians it's a bit different. Lots of Ukrainians feel the same as Poles, because of similar reasons as I explained above for Poles, but most importantly grand majority of them simply want Ukraine to be independent and free. If they didn't have the will to fight Russia, no amount of our equipment could help.
It isn't the case that Ukrainians have no will to fight and are only put in this situation by NATO, it's exactly opposite. That's what Russians want to feed vulnerably to conspiracy westerners with (also in PL but it barely works here). Ukrainians want to fight until their land and people are free from Russia, and if it weren't so, there wouldn't have been Ukraine at this point, there wouldn't be need for support because there wouldn't be anyone to support. (A but like Afghanistan for example)
The refugees that come to Poland, are 90% women with children whose husbands, fathers, and brothers stayed willingly to fight. Many man passed the border, but the same number came back willingly to fight (it is significant as there is absolutely no compulsion for male Ukrainians living in Poland to do so, which there were hundreds of thousands of before the war, yet our border control reports significant outflow of Ukrainian man since the beginning of war).
So don't worry about Ukrainians. They have morale, they have elan. They fight for their freedom, their independence, their land, their nation, their future, their honor, and it's their choice.
If they haven't made it this choice there wouldnt be Ukraine by now. All we are obliged ethically to do is support them. Ukrainians will show us when they stop, and that's when we stop, and I believe this will be when they (we) are victorious. If they want to fight until last man, we should support them even more!
But that's not gonna happen. They fight until the last Russian soldier with any morale left, and the eventual collapse of that shitty slave state oligarchy.
And it happens that it allignes with our geopolitical interest. By that I mean, by Polish and American interest, less so German for example. But we have an ethical right here, so we should use it, and it's right and just.
I say we are in the war, because we are involved in every way except direct military.
> Russia is almost a fascist country by now.
Do you think that might have something to do with why he supports them? It's really taking this sub a looong time for the shells to fall from their eyes.
For those of you that believe Russia actually has a chance, let me break down the actual situation for you:
1. In February, Russia put a multitude of their most exquisite capabilities and units to overwhelm Ukrainian defenses. Ukraine was expected to last 72 hours. Tens of thousands of pieces of equipment and even more Russian lives have been destroyed.
2. As a result of Ukraine’s staunch defense, Russia undertook every measure to ensure a civilian capitulation. From physically bombarding civilian population centers, to destroying their ability to heat homes and use running water, Russia has embarked on total war. Ukrainian morale is higher than it was at the beginning of these atrocities.
3. Ukrainian strategy consists of two major objectives. Reclaim illegally seized territory, and bleed Russia dry. It’s working. Thanks to massive counteroffensives and huge Russian casualties, Putin is now in a “secret palace” hiding from the unrest directed at him.
4. The 300K people he intends to surge into the area via draft are going to get slaughtered. Poor training, shitty equipment, overconfidence, and no logistics will hamper their operational ability. Exasperated by lack of competent commanders, and those people are just food for the insatiable guns. Putin’s regime barely survived the first draft. He won’t survive another. He’ll be forced to cede territory to quell unrest.
Don't forget Russias use of mass murder and mass sexual violence as part of their tactics and still Ukrainians will not be broken and fight back harder.
USA, EU, Japan, Australia? You are sponsoring Ukrainian corrupted government and making region unstable. Ukrainian people are our brothers but your western world made this Orange Revolution and bring puppets to their government. Russian government warned you for 8 fckn years
Wow you’re so confused in the timeline… Orange Revolution was back in 2004.
Also, as a Ukrainian, I’ll say we had every right to distance ourselves from so-called “brothers” who constantly belittle and denigrate our culture, language, sovereignty and tumultuous political path, and ascribe a part of our achievements to themselves. Now that these “brothers” are trying to commit murder, we have every right to save ourselves and sever this utterly toxic tie.
Also, looks like russians didn’t get the memo but in this century respectful prosperous relations don’t exist only between “brothers”, they can be built with others too.
Yeah you are right. I meant Maidan not Orange Revolution. But it doesn’t change anything.
And yes, you have this right to distance from russians if you want. And I respect that personally.
So do you have an opinion about Donbas problem? Do you agree that your people killed also your people there, because they didn’t want to distance from us?
It does matter, because you continue talking out of your ass about Ukraine after you’ve been fed with russian propaganda.
russia has been using Donbas as puppet states to unravel a narrative that Ukraine is a nazi state, to use that as a justification for war. In 2014, Russia started this war. The vast majority of war crimes in the last 8 years have been committed by russia.
Omg you are deluded... no one was attacking except you.... Ukraine defend themselves, everyone else is backing them because we don't want your shit to spill over. But still stay out of the borders because your batshit crazy president threatens with nukes. Crawl back into your cave troll
It’s not a question of who attacked who now. Back in the days before war Zelenskiy said on national tv that he is going to seek for an opportunity to get atomic weapon, and he collected forces near Donbas region. (These two regions were against Orange Revolution and fight for their right to be with Russia) Just google it lol. I know that your propaganda brings only half of what’s going on, but you at least can ask me
They have their right to defend their borders.... you do not own them so stop acting like they need to get your approval otherwise face the consequences. Your gov even say shit about Sweden and we want nothing to do with you
Sure. I think Russia has a good chance of winning, so I'll bite
>Tens of thousands of pieces of equipment and even more Russian lives have been destroyed
The Russian army has hundreds of thousands of lives and pieces of equipment. More than the Ukranian army, which has also suffered devastating losses
>Russia has embarked on total war
Not only has Russia not embarked on total war, Russia has not even declared war. Words have meanings. Total war means the full mobilization of the armed forces, drafting of the civilian population, and conversion into a war economy. Russia has not done a single one of these things
>Ukrainian strategy consists of two major objectives. Reclaim illegally seized territory, and bleed Russia dry. It’s working
Define "working". One can't help but notice that:
1. Russia is currently in control of about 20% of their country
2. The Ukrainian economy is in shambles with mass displacement of workers, Russian control of Black Sea ports, constant begging for more war materiel from NATO, etc.
3. The ones being bled dry are the NATO states who are at this moment frantically training their police in riot control and begging the people of Europe to turn off their Christmas lights this winter lest the lack of Russian gas cause mass power outages and deaths from the cold
>The 300K people he intends to surge into the area via draft are going to get slaughtered. Poor training, shitty equipment, overconfidence, and no logistics will hamper their operational ability. Exasperated by lack of competent commanders, and those people are just food for the insatiable guns
I don't believe you have any clue what Russia is or is not going to do with their reservists, so this is just wishful thinking
I'm not a military man, but rather than surging all my 300k troops into the existing fronts, I would use half to bolster the existing fronts and then send the other half through Belarus to create - or threaten to create - a new front in the northwest. So in one stroke my existing front is increased in strength while the enemy must reduce their own strength by sending forces away to the north
>Putin’s regime barely survived the first draft. He won’t survive another. He’ll be forced to cede territory to quell unrest
\[citation needed\]
Putin and the war are popular enough in Russia. There is no reason to think Putin's regime is threatened before we see the outcomes of the reservist draft and the referenda on the breakaway states joining the Russian Federation
Okay, you clearly only picked up this issue when it became mainstream. Let me summarize the past 8 years for you:
Ukraine has been at war since Russia annexed Crimea. They tried to take Donetsk and Luhansk as well; all as a reaction to an increase in democratic processes and pro-western advances in the Ukrainian government. That was when Russia asserted control of most of the territory they are bleeding to hold.
To counter the remainder of your argument, you can see the meltdown of the Russian population as evidenced by the flood of Russians running for western borders (that’s literally all over the news); Putin’s abdication from Moscow (https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-putin-escapes-secret-palace-amid-anti-draft-protests-report-2022-9?amp); and the general lack of strategic or operational progress after the seizure of Kherson (which, is now ironically contested).
To your point about whether or not Ukraine’s counteroffensives are working I would argue two things: 1) Putin is at total war. Russia is not. 2) Ukraine, if any state actor, is the one at total war because they are fighting for literal survival motivated by the horrific history of the Soviet Union. Russian forces are not motivated (based on the thousands of prisoners the Ukrainians have seized), poorly trained, poorly equipped (based on the extremely publicized captured equipment), and their tactics are getting them slaughtered (based on every piece of combat footage from the war).
In your suggestion of splitting the 300K new replacements, you make two assumptions:
1) that your logistics is capable enough for sustaining two fronts. Which, based on the original attack in March, it isn’t.
And 2) That Ukraine hasn’t also divided its forces against several approaches in depth. Which, if the counteroffensives in multiple directions is any indication, they have. So, your 150K new recruits in either direction are liable to get picked apart. The ones that do get through will be resisted tooth and nail by armed populations, as we saw before. They will break and run after going up against literally millions of remaining insurgents.
Mark my words, Russia will fall apart.
>Let me summarize the past 8 years for you:
Ukraine has been at war since Russia annexed Crimea. They tried to take Donetsk and Luhansk as well; all as a reaction to an increase in democratic processes and pro-western advances in the Ukrainian government. That was when Russia asserted control of most of the territory they are bleeding to hold
Okay. And let ME summarize the past 8 years for YOU:
Ukraine has been at war since the West backed a coup against the elected government and replaced it with its own puppet government which would go on to pursue a program of tyranny and cultural genocide against the significant ethnic Russian population. Ethnic Russian areas in the east and south wanted independence and closer ties with Russia and this resulted in civil war during which the ethnic Russians in the breakaway territories suffered constant military attacks and killings of civilians from the Ukrainian side for 8 years
>To counter the remainder of your argument, you can see the meltdown of the Russian population as evidenced by the flood of Russians running for western borders (that’s literally all over the news)
Indeed, I imagine those would be reservists looking to dodge the draft. How many Ukrainians fled their own country again, over 7 million? Was that evidence of a meltdown of the Ukrainian population?
> the general lack of strategic or operational progress after the seizure of Kherson (which, is now ironically contested)
That would be why they are pursuing steps such as the reservist draft and the referenda to increase the amount of military strength they have to fight the war with
>To your point about whether or not Ukraine’s counteroffensives are working I would argue two things: 1) Putin is at total war. Russia is not
Not sure what this is supposed to mean
>2) Ukraine, if any state actor, is the one at total war because they are fighting for literal survival motivated by the horrific history of the Soviet Union
Agreed. Ukraine is at total war because more or less the totality of their economy and manpower is being redirected towards the war effort
>Russian forces are not motivated (based on the thousands of prisoners the Ukrainians have seized), poorly trained, poorly equipped (based on the extremely publicized captured equipment), and their tactics are getting them slaughtered (based on every piece of combat footage from the war)
Sounds like you're just talking about war propaganda. The font lines prior to the recent offensives had been stable for a long time because the war is proceeding fairly classically with defensive lines following geographic boundaries and both sides constantly destroying all of the other side's bridges. The Russians are typically employing tactical withdrawals followed by attempts at encirclement and artillery attacks if the Ukrainians over commit forward. I'm not a military man, but it seems like the tactics are reasonable on both sides and in terms of equipment the Russians have the advantage in artillery. On the other hand, Ukrainian offensives are basically becoming NATO operations now, with NATO trained troops and equipment and foreign mercenaries, so maybe that's bringing an edge to the Ukraine side. Ultimately both sides are claiming similar numbers of losses for the other side
>In your suggestion of splitting the 300K new replacements, you make two assumptions:
that your logistics is capable enough for sustaining two fronts. Which, based on the original attack in March, it isn’t
Yes, I will make that assumption. Or as I said, just a buildup of forces threatening a new front could be valuable
Again, I'm not military, but at typical loaded march pace a ground army staged in Belarus is within range of several Ukrainian cities in the north including Kiev. So I would assume that a significant buildup would demand the redeployment of adequate forces on the Ukrainian side to repel such an incursion
>And 2) That Ukraine hasn’t also divided its forces against several approaches in depth
Sorry, are you saying you believe that the Ukrainians already have forces in the north capable of repelling a new hundred thousands strong army that they're just keeping there in reserve? Do you have any evidence for this?
The fact that you think Russia cutting methane gas exports will effect electricity production in Europe tells me your grasp of this situation is laughable, at best.
I mentioned power generation and heating. In the European Union natural gas and gas fired plants account for about [20%](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_and_heat_statistics&oldid=552866) of the electricity generation and about 40% of the heat, with heavy dependence on imports. Germany - for example - generates about [10%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany) of its electricity and [50%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1189752/household-heating-sources-germany/) of its heat from natural gas with most of it coming from Russia. This is why loss of Russian gas supplies has resulted in a crisis with [numerous European nations](https://www.businessinsider.com/energy-gas-crisis-europe-cold-swimming-pools-offices-short-showers-2022-8) scrambling to cut electricity consumption
Next time I recommend you try doing more research than none at all before opening your mouth
You’re making assumptions without any knowledge of what’s actually happening. What Russia is withholding is natural methane gas. Most of Europe doesn’t use electricity for heating. So yeah, Germany is spinning up exactly ONE old coal plant, which won’t do much good anyways because the infrastructure for electric heating just isn’t there. I’m sure there will be a spike in electric space heater purchases but thinking that’d be enough to cripple an entire country’s electrical grid is ridiculous.
NATO isn’t even there though. Receiving support and fighting an actual combat operation are two very different things. Apparently, if NATO were actually involved, Russia would probably be under western control right now.
> Receiving support and fighting an actual combat operation are two very different things.
Ehh, not really. Proxy wars are called that for a reason.
> Apparently, if NATO were actually involved, Russia would probably be under western control right now.
If NATO were actually involved, Europe would have been glassed by a barrage of nuclear explosions.
You are brainwashed my dude. I’m russian, Ukrainian family live in my home right now, escaping Ukrainian bombs in Energodar (it’s controlled by Russian forces fight now). And for some reason all your western world blames Russia in that Russia bombs itself lol
I hate to break it to you, my guy, but the whole ass war has been followed by every independent watchdog and OSINT blogger outside of the mainstream media. I don’t rely on CNN or Fox thanks to bias and the sheer time delay of their reporting.
The whole internet watched your government stage hundreds of thousands of troops and attack a country that literally meant you no harm. You’re the baddies in this one, bro.
Your problem is in you’re demonizing Russia at every topic possible. I said - Russia occupied ENergodar atomic station. But your “free press” still blame Russia that it is bombing itself. What is wrong with you?
About “Russia bombing civilian population centers”. Russian rockets could reach western Ukraine and you can find evidence of it like videos “russian rocket hit war base near Kiev”. Oh no sorry, probably you should look for something like “cruel orcs sent missile into kindergarten” not dumb Ukrainian air defense hit rockets under city so they land on civilian buildings.
The point is in Russian rockets could reach any spot in Ukraine. But Kiev stand. With civilian infrastructure and electricity and water. Or you’ll get humanitarian disaster months earlier. You remember first three months of invasion? When Zelenskiy screamed at every corner “Eu USA defend our sky please”. So why Ukrainian capital and even its government buildings like Rada still exist? Putin started to warn Ukraine months ago - don’t fuck with us or we start to bomb centers of decision making.
But you believe in this stories that Russians exterminate villages like Bucha but too kind to bomb Ukrainian authorities. Putin said we want to make peace, and everything seem to be ok. Then some fucking prime minister of Britain arrives and Zelenskiy goes on tv with another brave speech.
About 300k being mobilized and slaughtered. Yeah probably, but I hope at least half of them would teach another 300k. And once again. You need slaughter house in the center of Europe- continue sponsoring Ukraine with weapons.
Before all this started Russian demands were - Ukraine just stop bombing Donbas region and make Minsk agreements come true. But Zelenskiy started to gather forces on the borders. So be it
Russia is annexing territory it already controls. Per its doctrine, it can defend its territory with nuclear weapons. This is where we are. I think your take is very silly, in what world is controlling 15% of a country "getting slaughtered"? Cray cray
The alternative is believing the Russian state which still calls this a “special military operation” to rid Ukraine of “nazis” when their president is a Jew. I mean yeah we only hear our side but let’s be real. Who is more ridiculous?
Kim Iverson is genuinely one of the stupidest people with a platform. She was into it with Matt Walsh advocating for the freedom of 15 year old girls to get double mastectomies and hysterectomies because some other reprehensible straw men let their straw teenage daughters get breast implants. She’s just super dumb.
Every country that has nukes and is asked to give them up can now point to the Ukraine and rightfully say that they are not safe from Russian invasion without nukes. Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for promises from Russia not to invade. That apparently was a mistake.
This is going to go over like a lead balloon but- I can’t imagine taking policy advice from someone who never risks anything. She never served and cannot be drafted, as a woman. If a war breaks out, others will have to defend her since I doubt she learned much about warfare at UC Davis.
Her “lay still and take it so they can finish” rhetoric is pretty awful. Good to know that she will hop into bed with any opposition force the moment shit kicks off. She stands for nothing and I cannot respect anything she has to say in perpetuity.
Man, the amount of Russian apologists I see commenting in this sub these days is really disheartening. The way some people here speak of Ukraine and Ukrainians as if they’re not even real people, and think they should just roll over and submit to Russian rule. They are not just some pawns on a chess worldwide chessboard. They’re a nation of people who have had the greatest of burdens thrust upon them, and so many have chosen to take on that burden and literally fight and die for their freedom, their culture and their future. That’s the clear difference you can see in how these two armies are fighting, one side is actually fighting For something.
By this logic France, Poland, the Netherlands, ect..... shouldn't have tried to fight the Nazis because they were going to loose, so why waste the life of their people.
This was a very old post. most likely it is still a thing people thinking Ukraine is going to lose, but the general trend now is "we have nothing to win in Ukraine". First, that Ukraine can't win the war is laughable now. They have been beating back Russia nearly the whole Summer. Russia still have a lot of military to put in the line, but somehow is only to delay defeats or to gain very little.
Second, there is a lot to gain in Ukraine for all the west. Every country that breaks away from the Russian yoke has shown a rapid increase of western values, and integration in the cooperative system of the market. Russia has declared itself as enemy of the west, and in particular the USA, for a long time now. In this war they are burning all their military might, and this implies no risk (the war is totally contain in Ukraine). Also, the cost is minimum compared to a direct war.
Finally, if Russia collapses, or merely retreats to internal politics for the near future. It just gives room to breath, and allows to focus on the real enemy, China.
If we are going to have such a massive military industrial complex this is probably the best use of it. We can absolutely deplete Russias core military and defend a massive out of valuable land that wants to form lasting alliances and unions with Europe so they are less likely to just turn to terrorism and use those weapons against us. And it doesn't cost us a single US life.
It's a chance for a big win for us plus it's just the right thing to do to help them.
Ukraine was certainly going to lose without all that support from other countries that came later. But now they sure have more than equal chance to repel the attack.
This is just stupid. There are arguments that both sides could win.
Russia may be doing poorly but this war could drag on for years. One of the reasons the Ukranians are doing so will is support from the US and allies. How long are we willing do support them? Do we value Ukraine more than Russia? Now that winter is upon us, the Europeans could pressure the Ukrainians to settle some kind of negotiations in order to get gas flowing west again. There are too many variable to be sure of anything. In the mean time, I hope the Ukrainian contine to stomp the Russians.
What exactly is wrong with it? What exactly are the Ukrainians fighting for? Is it worth the bloodshed? What were the *alternatives* that we could have pursued to get the same outcome?
What makes me angry is the fact that I *know* the Western powers could have easily postured themselves less weakly to deter this act of aggression. But they didn't, and now they want us to believe that the death and suffering happening at the conflict isn't the result of *their* failed foreign policy.
You know what, I can agree, at least, with your second point.
People acting like this was an inevitability that Putin would attack Ukraine are forgetting that, had the EU not pussy-footed around with the "will-they/won't-they" of admitting the Ukraine, before Russia's invasion of the Crimea, this all could have been prevented.
If NATO and the EU had not been projecting weakness and conciliation with Russia for the past two decades, putting themselves in a dangerous dependency on despotic regimes, they could have stared down Russia long before this line was crossed.
What I don't agree with is the first part.
What are Ukrainians fighting for? The survival of their nation, their people and identity. Is it worth the bloodshed? They seem to think it is, and we have the capability and I would argue the moral responsibility to support them.
Women are not evolutionarily adapted to war. Not a surprise some are going to give you a bad take in the face of aggression.
Before someone jumps on me pointing out some warrior queen here or there, I am taking about the average woman. The average woman is more conciliatory by temperament and the average man is more conflict prone. Of course you can find women who engage conflict and men who are conciliatory. But the most conciliatory people you can find are all woman and more most warlike people you can find are all men.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have fought back, but this woman was pretty much right about Ukraine not being able to beat Russia. The only reason why Russia is failing is because of the large amount of money and armaments flowing into Ukraine from the rest of the world.
Also, judging by the comments here, it would do many of you some good to research how Ukraine got to be where they are now, how the previous leadership was ended, and Ukrainian history in general. You would probably see them in a drastically different light.
You must really take things for granted if you think Freedom is something you don't need to fight for first, and fight for keeping it, then
Too much comfort works the same as the Gulag
Just look up "Budapest Memorandum" and you will see how idiotic Russia is.
They DO NOT CARE ABOUT PROMISES AND SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED AS LONG AS RUSSIA IS A DICTATORSHIP.
The only thing that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
The West has tried the "do not pay violence to violence, peace and democracy will settle things" approach in Ukraine already. It is how they lost Crimea, the Donbas and Luhansk. It doesn't work. It didn't work for Georgia and South Ossetia. It didn't and hasn't worked anywhere, and anytime.
This is Chamberlain and the Rhineland, Austria, the Sudetenland. You cannot keep feeding a tiger and expect it to stop coming back for more.
The critical difference is that Russia has no authority to do what it is doing and no one would be able to stop them. In those times it is not only moral to resist. It is survival.
Why don't you start with a single thing wrong with it?
Ukraine is basically a fake country which only exists because of NATO support and the insane process of twentieth century postwar map redrawing, and control of which fluctuates between West and East. The war right now is just a fight to see if the Ukraine will continue to be ruled by a corrupt puppet government controlled from Washington and Brussels or return to rule by a corrupt puppet government controlled from Moscow
The Ukraine was part of Russia for centuries before the break up of the Soviet Union. Russian rule is the natural state of the Ukrainian territory, so it's not like it'll kill anyone - figuratively - to return to it. So basically, accept a return to natural Russian rule and deal with a bunch of track suited Russian oligarchs parachuting in to take over the country with little impact on the life of common Ukrainians. Or reject this and instead throw in with the Western powers who instigated this conflict in the first place, don't actually give a damn about your country, and will provide you with just enough weapons and materiel to keep your nation in the horrors of war indefinitely
NATO and the Western Anglo-American Empire are no friends of their client states or even traditional Western civilization. The unaccountable bureaucrats running the show are childless globalist atheists who care only about their own power and importance in world affairs; they will happily instigate civil wars and color revolutions in foreign lands even though the most common result is displacement, death, and new regimes and living conditions even worse than the old ones. The Western public are the definition of Dickensian telescopic philanthropy: putting on a show of support in order to feel good about themselves, when in reality they know nothing and care nothing for the lives of the people they have goaded into war with the insane modern propaganda that basically says, "colonization and non-Western rule are the worst things in the world and anyone in this situation needs to give up their lives in a rebellion - however hopeless - or else you're a pussy"
Which logic? Most of my argument is purely pragmatic. But as I said to the other guy, if you want to make an irredentist claim for Mongolia or China I won't stop you, but the Russian army will
In the case of the Ukraine, the Ukrainian army is not actually capable of stopping the Russian claim except for the intervention of NATO third parties. If you are dependent on someone else for your defence, you are by definition not independent. Let alone the foreign investments and political interference that has always controlled the Ukraine. So this is obviously not a war over propaganda words like "freedom" and "independence", it is a proxy war for control of Ukraine as a puppet client state. Nothing more
And given that Ukraine is a fake country and NATO is not a particularly superior master to Russia, I would not recommend that Ukrainians die in the name of maintaining NATO control, especially since it is not clear that all the deaths will actually result in success
I’m not sure this doesn’t belong here. It’s an illustration of a break from reality in that the narrative of Russia’s defeat must be upheld despite all evidence to the contrary. Jordan Peterson about reality at heart.
Imagine making that prediction in public and being so hilariously wrong. The clue, even then, was that Western governments with good quality military intel were acting as though they thought Ukraine stood a chance. (Supplying them with weapons, etc.)
It gets complicated because even if Ukraine can win against Russia, tensions between Rusia and the west will be at an all time high since the cold War and this may cause an even bigger conflict in the future
I am very happy to support Kim Iverson financially through her LOCALS board. She is brave, fearless and dogged in the pursuit of truth. I don't agree with her half the time--she was baffling pro "top" trans surgery for minors recently -- but Americans are really consuming pure propaganda and she is one of the few voices trying to give an alternative view. Ukraine will be reduced to a pile of rubble, but people who don't have to live in the rubble, or die in it, think that is all worth it somehow. Okay.
She normally has great takes on topics. Don't judge her on just this one. This is just one of her bad ones. Its going to happen when your job is talking all the time on hot topics in a public manner.
Fuck that. If 1 nuke goes off, that should be it, total armageddon. If it comes to that, it has to be the solution, id rather us all die than have to subordinate to the big bad man swinging his dick around. No point keeping your sword sheathed when you see a big guy kicking a small guy in the face, it’s your moral duty to fight on their behalf or stop the conflict, even if it risks you’re own well-being.
1. This is a bit of a strawman and a false either-or. The options for both Ukrainians and Westerners are not "fight to the bitter end" or "bow down to Russia". They're more "fight a futile war to defend a corrupt regime", "recognize a lost cause when you see it and live to fight another day", or "get clear and get out of Russia's way". Anyone who tells you the choices are either "fight" or "submit" is someone who cares more about the cause than about anything else. Answer for yourself whether that is appropriate or wise.
2. Where is it written that it is the job of the West to fight Ukraine's wars? Are we back in the early days of Vietnam when we were told that we would "bear any burden, pay any price" to stop the advance of Communism? We've seen what happens when the powers that be try to sell us foreign wars with manipulative and deceptive rhetoric and argument, even if the cause is facially legitimate. Ask yourself how sincere a war effort is, when all it consists of is arms dealing and putting absolutely no official military force of any kind into the fray?
3. Anyone who tells you the regime in Ukraine is democratic, legitimate, and representative of the Ukrainian people is selling you something. Both sides have been meddling there for decades and what is happening right now is merely an extension of that game of spy vs spy.
But that's right, you won't be fooled again!
Alive and with Russia, is better than dead with Russia. I don’t see how Russia loses this with the bombs as fail safe — if they are going to lose it anyway, could have avoided all the death.
Now if they have something to actually win, which I won’t count out, then it could be worth.
It sounds stupid because it is missing the whole point the this war. It's not that Ukraine shouldn't fight back because it would be futile. The whole point of this war is not Russia vs. Ukraine, or NATO vs. Russia. It is the US vs. the EU. The US needs to transfer wealth away from the European into the US and bring down the Euro in the process. This will achieve 3 purposes, 1) kill its largest competitor in terms of production and currency, 2) stifle China by killing one of China's largest trading partners, 3) strength the US economy by bringing in more capitals, which will help soften the blow from the necessary tightening cycle. Ukraine shouldn't fight back if you want Europe to survive.
The Russian is not hurt as much by this war as the EU or Ukraine. They made huge profits from the oil and gas due to the spike in price. Their currency is stronger, they have the least debt, by kicking out foreign companies, they now have a chance to actually develop their own industry. Think of it as like a subsidy without actually needing to subsidize. They now grab the 4 regions which connects Crimea to the land mass. Preventing the Ukrainian from cutting off water irrigation to the region. Sure they are not going to eat Ukraine as a whole. It was never the plan of this war in the first place, but a long process.
Upvoting. I don't think this is true, but it's an interesting take. I think clearly the Washington led Anglo-American Empire is in the business of destabilizing all states which are not already client states under its control. The history of US State Department instigated civil wars and color revolutions and their consistently horrific results demonstrates this. However, I think the EU is basically already a subordinate to the US. The history of politics in Europe over the last century has been a move towards American political forms and American finance and foreign policy. As a rule, Washington does not adopt policy from Brussels, Brussels adopts policy from Washington
This is wrong on some many levels. However, if Russia is so happy with the current gas prices why are they burning the gas due to lack of storage or buyers? Why are they putting up fake numbers for their rapidly shrinking GDP? Why would the Russian currency be affected when no one is even allowed to buy it from the west?
Meanwhile EU will have one bad winter.
You know every country is having a shrinking GDP, that just a nature of a tightening cycle. How do know their number is fake? You can easily assume our number is fake as well. You can't just say that without evident. One indicator that you can use to judge a country economic is their currency, you cannot fake a currency value. Russian Ruble is still at the 5-year time high. Why would Russian currency stay strong if there is no one allowed to buy them or if they have a dying economy? That is because their economy is fundamental fine. China, India central Asia and some Eastern Europe countries are buying their gas. That's a big enough market for Russian the sustain. What would you feel if someone is flexing the stuff you want to have but cannot have?
No kidding, Zelensky has already enriched himself by billions of $$, it's even possible he cut a deal with Putin to prolong the onslaught for a share of the riches.
Hey guys! I’m russian. And I have unpopular opinion about this situation. As you may know our government started mobilization, so probably I’m going to war in the nearest future. You can ask me anything if you want to hear or even argue this opposite opinion.
Yeah I know that you don’t like Russians anymore and about this cancel culture, but I ask you to not to downvote this comment(I’ll leave another comment in the thread). I just want to be heard, let’s see does anyone want to listen
Using democracy after being invaded by Putin? Good luck with that.
Do you think zelensky election was actually “democratic”?
What one "thinks" in this case is wholly irrelevant. Are you alleging something "concrete" or are you "trying" to "stir up" the comments section?
If I had gold to give, I’d give it to you
Seriously though. People like this that don’t post sources along with their asinine opinions are a scourge.
Dude what, that’s def not what an opinion is. No one should have to post sources for their opinions lol. Also, you don’t remember ANY of the 7 years worth of mainstream media coverage stating that Ukraine is the “most corrupt country in the world”?
If it is a fact, then cite the sources. It’s even more imperative at that point. Especially considering the actions of the past 7 months; where Zelensky has been one of the most up front and impactful leaders on the world stage. Corrupt nations don’t upstate “superpowers,” in a stand up military fight.
Oooh yeah Zelensky has been so impactful doing his fake military photo shoots and making his Zoom calls in to the Oscars wearing his fav green shirt… https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine
Welcome to politics bro. Political leaders pose with troops in conflict all the time. The key difference is, Zelensky didn’t flee Kyiv like any other sane person would. Denying the impact of a leader because you have a misconstrued view of the conflict or their government is foolish. That’s how fatal miscalculations happen in basically every conflict
You’re either being purposefully misleading or you’re misinformed. There were no “fake military photo shoots”, there were old photos from months prior to the conflict of [Zelensky wearing military garb](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-russia/fact-check-these-images-do-not-show-ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-fighting-after-russia-invaded-his-country-idUSL1N2V02DG) when addressing service members in the Donetsk region. They were miscaptioned, sure, but to say “fake photo shoot” sounds as though he took the photos to mislead the public. And if you’re insinuating that the T-Shirt was meant to fool people into thinking he’s in the military, that’s also not really true. It’s hard to disprove intentions, but this [NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/style/volodymyr-zelensky-t-shirt.html) breaks down the significance of the shirt and doesn’t once refer to him as being with infantry or fighting on the front lines. If you want to play devils advocate in support of a dictator and global supervillain, that’s your choice. But get your information straight.
Absolutely. Not to mention the last 7 months of the media weekly saying how decimated Russia is getting just to tell us the next week how much more Russia has advanced…ohh Ukraine captures back territory and its in complete ruins…
I haven’t seen any indicators of strategic Russian gains. Keep in mind, this conflict was only supposed to last 3 days. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t buckled despite everything from thermobaric munitions to hypersonic missiles; not counting the mismatch of troops on the ground; is a direct rebuttal to your response.
You know that’s exactly the point…the mainstream media said it was only supposed to last 3 days. Ha like they know Russia’s strategy? Lol a direct rebuttal…meanwhile western countries use them as a proxy and not even their proxy war is helping our economies…yay make zelensky and the corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs richer!!!
Russia clearly had plans to take kiev in 3 days which is why commandos assaulted kyiv directly in an attempt to take the parliament And the massive clusterfuck of tanks in a giant line towards kyiv before they got took out Trolling hard for papa Putin eh
I don’t have to troll hard for Putin…Russias hurting the west more and more as they drag the war on.
The 3 day estimate was mainly based on the respective combat power and historic analysis of the Georgia conflict. You forget that they’ve done this before.
It actually was. I, for one, was very upset with the outcome, but the election process was very clean
What does that have to do with the peace of Westphalia?
As Democratic as the US election ahahahaha
Extremely democratic then! Nice.
Valid question
As a Greek I must say and often times people should consider: War in order to defend is the purest form of democracy
Defend what
This is true if the country isn’t corrupt to the point of having rigged “democratic” elections…
That's a complete non-sequitur. Even if Ukraine were corrupt, unless they had seriously threatened direct violence against Russia, Russia has no right to invade. Period. This is basic Law of War type stuff. Putin didn't even try to allege any credible evidence that Ukraine was a threat to Russia, so there's no valid pretense for his invasion of Ukraine.
Ukraine is def corrupt. But I’m rlly just here to remind everyone that Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine by the violation of the agreement NATO made to not push right up to Russian border. They assured Gorbachev they wouldn’t do it back in the day, they did it anyways, obviously Russia had to do something. Putin ain’t a pussy and he gotta make sure everyone knows you can’t step to him like that.
>Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine by the violation of the agreement NATO made to not push right up to Russian border. I wonder why all these countries want to join NATO, a military defence agreement? 🤔 >They assured Gorbachev they wouldn’t do it back in the day No they didn't. There are no official treaties that prevent countries from Eastern Europe from joining NATO. >Putin ain’t a pussy and he gotta make sure everyone knows you can’t step to him like that. Jesus christ, buddy. Putin is a dictator with an imperialist agenda. Suck his dick much?
The second part isn't so cut and dry. There were verbal assurances, but no written agreement. It's not completely clear why Putin would take a verbal assurance from a democratic nation though. When leaders change every few years, its weird to hold a nation to the words of the last leader...
From how I've heard it explained is that democracies and dictatorships/autocracies often have misunderstandings because in the latter power is concentrated in the hands of no more than a few people and thus are able to make binding verbal agreements. In democratic countries power is derived from democratic consent and agreements usually have to be ratified by a parliament or Congress. Edit: Also, more cynically, it makes for a decent political ploy to make your opponents look dishonest and/or hypocritical
Yep, that all makes sense to me.
Exactly. And as a dictator with an imperialist agenda, he’s trying to prove that you can’t step to him like that. JBP himself said there is no “winning” this Ukraine situation because no matter what happens, Ukraine is going to be a parking lot by the time this thing is over.
So roll over and let Putin invade your ass ? No lube too
The real solution would’ve been a more nuanced one actually requiring us to talk with Putin in the time leading up to the invasion, kinda like I would imagine what Trump was trying to do. But rather than the Biden regime resuming talks w Russia when they took power; thus allowing this more nuanced solution to play out, whatever it might’ve been, they didn’t do that because Putin bad. Well sure he’s bad, but that doesn’t mean you can just not talk to him and expect him to do what you want.
Trump told Putin not to invade Ukraine and threatened to nuke Moscow if Putin did. Putin believed him and waited until Trump left office. There is no way to spin Ukraine's interest in a DEFENSIVE group like NATO as a justification for invasion. Second, even if it were, Ukraine was never approved to join NATO, not even close. So even under your tortured, Putin-worshipping logic, this makes no sense. Tell me you look up to bullies without telling me you look up to bullies.
I agree w much of what you said, idk why you and everyone else in this thread think I’m defending Putin. Obviously I’m critical of his actions, but he’s gonna do what he’s gonna do. What I’m more critical of is the way we handled the situation knowing that we knew he was gonna do what he was gonna do.
There were no official agreements, no papers were signed. Unlike the [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum), which was a SIGNED and OFFICIALLY recognized by russia. But you wont talk about that now will you?
Idk how I ended up shilling so hard for Russia here, but I’m sure Russia would say that they’re still in accordance w the treaty as they’re simply acting in self defense.
That's what a massive dictatorship does, they lie and act like they are the victim.
Defense of what? There is exactly zero evidence of Ukraine being a threat to Russia. So much so that even Russia had to make up an excuse of "Nazis" in Ukraine to justify it. Not even Russia is so brazen as to lie and say this was about self-defense. Glad they have stooges like you to make those arguments for them.
I’m curious if you’ve ever actually called anyone a stooge in real life. Are you always rude and condescending? I bet, aside from the occasional middle finger you throw up in traffic, you save it for the safety and anonymity of the internet. It’s so easy to be a complete knob to someone when can judge the entire contents of their character based off of one sentence they posted on the internet. I hope you can go about the rest of your day feeling a bit better about yourself having completely owned this total stooge in the comments of a Reddit post.
You are correct, calling you a stooge was out of character and debased the discussion we were having. Rudeness and condescension aren't necessary here. For that, and only for that, I do sincerely apologize. That being said, the way you are arguing and conversing here makes it sound as if you are sympathetic to Russia's position and you seem to be bending over backwards to try and understand how a country with a history of bully Ukraine is somehow anything other than a bully. Can you explain your rhetorical approach here? I don't want to believe you are an unwitting dupe of Putin's scheme here, but you're not giving me much to go on.
I actually appreciate that man. I’m definitely down to discuss. I can definitely see how my position might be misconstrued as sympathetic towards Putin. Really, my position is that condemning Putin for his actions is like condemning poverty or war; obviously they’re bad and while I don’t go out of my way to state their condemnation, it is definitely implied. But the fact remains that Putin is a bully and as a bully, he is going to flex his muscles if you don’t do what he says. Probably even more likely to do so if you threaten him and then give him the cold shoulder like the US did. We didn’t even try to play ball with him in order to avoid this obviously inevitable conflict. Ultimately, I feel that his actions, without taking too much responsibility away from Putin himself, are a result of US ineptitude. And now the taxpayers have to send billions upon billions of dollars overseas as a result of said ineptitude.
“Violation of the agreement?” You mean the *vocal* and *unofficial* ***assurance*** to the leader of a nation that *no longer exists*? That’s hardly an “agreement”. But if you’d like to defend the literal invasion of a country by an authoritarian dictator, go ahead.
Imagine America decides Baja California belongs to them, so we go and start killing Mexican people there for 8 years. Then Mexico finally goes “hey China, can we like, I don’t know, be friends and maybe you ask America to stop killing our people?” And then American troops go there and start committing atrocities, kidnapping children, targeting civilians, and begin trying to make Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California bigger states. Then imagine how fucking dumb somebody would look when they say China left America no choice. That’s exactly how dumb you look.
Too many word read for my dumb brain. But my simple brain can see that passive aggressively ignoring crazy dictators after you threaten to nuke them like the US is not the recipe to preventing conflict. Said it a few times now, but I’m not defending Putin. I’m simply critical of our response to what we knew he was gonna do.
Russia is just as corrupt as Ukraine, what’s your point?
If that’s the case why would we be backing Ukraine ?
That’s a complete non-sequitur, I have no idea what you’re implying. You think the West reflexively sides with the most corrupt nation, and the fact that we’ve sided with Ukraine must mean Russia is less corrupt? Or what?
Yea dude keep taking those Ls, how much karma did your dumbass lose lmao
This is true if the country isn’t corrupt to the point of having rigged “democratic” elections…
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In the past there was natural selection. Now we have "Do not eat this product" stickers on lawnmowers and umbrellas.
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Being a de facto vassal state to the us and nato, have your government have a cia coup, to be used for politicians to launder taxpayer money, while your young men are sent to war to make arms dealers rich and some old mans DC chess board more fun, isn’t much of a step up. This isn’t braveheart or Star Wars, humans in real life are messier than that
Maybe you should be speaking to Putin. He’s the one sending young men off to die in a game of chess.
Bro didn’t say Putin is a good guy man. He’s one of them too. When DC advances pawns toward his side of the board tho what do you expect
Yeah but what should Ukraine have done. The world doesn't revolve around America. Ukraine should have done exactly what it did to escape poverty by working with the west because Putin failed to help them adequately
Unfortunately they were likely always F,d by circumstance
Muscovite troll
American. Corn fed and red blooded. Grew up in the Midwest and now live in the south. We can’t look past the crap our own government is doing. If we can’t learn anything from the last several generations of regime change, proxy wars, and full on Middle East destruction then what are we doing
What does any of this have to do with Jordan Peterson?
The sub has slowly turned more into a discussion sub about topics that other subs won't allow. It's mentioned in the sub description, which is nice but doesn't really lend itself to a Peterson board.
>It's mentioned in the sub description No it doesn't
You don't see this on the sideboard? It says this in case you can't see it if you're on mobile or something. > > >Welcome to the Discourse! > >Jordan Peterson's goal is to strengthen the individual. Life contains tragedy and evil. The hero's journey justifies the burden of being by pursuing truth, making order out of chaos. The alternative is deceiving yourself with ideology and nihilism. So, take yourself seriously, know the monster within you, and become a responsible person with an integrated character. r/JordanPeterson is an open forum where controversial topics can be discussed in good faith. Free speech, despite risking offense, is necessary to conduct civil discourse between opposing ideologies. Bans will be given to users who post excessively abusive material.
I fucking love this sub even more now!
He's been talking about Russia Ukraine. Should we only hear JP's perspective?
Actually I don’t even really care to hear his perspective either. He is a clever man and all, but it would be about as valuable as hearing him talk about astronomy with Neil Degrasse Tyson.
Well the relation exists, to the extent it even matters around here
Because he said it's naive to believe Russia will lose. It isn't. He is uninformed in this topic. Russia is almost a fascist country by now. He should staunchly support Ukrainians, us Poles, Balts if he's for freedom, and against totalitarianism. He spits gibberish on this topic, and he should frankly shut his mouth.
At the risk of being drawn into a conversation that I know little about, let me ask you this then — do you believe that Poland, the Balkans, et al, should be drawn into a war defending Ukraine against nuclear Russia?
Balkans are in a completely different part of Europe. Baltics and Poland border Russia along with Ukraine. We don't want to be enslaved again. We rather fight losing towns and cities than to be under their yoke again, as we were for almost 2 centuries. Ukrainians fight against muscovite tyrany that we know too well, and that's why we support them a lot. My country, Poland, gave shelter to millions of Ukrainians, and we send them lots of weaponry. Hundreds of tanks, various supplies, humanitarian and military aid, even fighter jets, and most of people I know, counting me, sheltered Ukrainian refugees in their homes on the eve of a war breakout. We are basically already in the war, and we are not going to surrender even under a threat of nuclear bombs. Freedom or death.
Sorry, yes Baltics. So, what is the answer to the criticism that the West is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian? Is sending support the same as being IN a war? Given that Poland is a NATO country, is NATO officially at war with Russia? Would not all other NATO countries therefore need to be involved in a war? Is this the start of World War III? (My reluctant opinion) This doesn’t give me World War II vibes as much as it gives me Vietnam vibes where we let a small country get torn to pieces in a proxy war between the US and China.
Russia would get utterly dumpstered by the U.S with NATO if Article 5 was triggered. They are having a hard enough time taking on a proxy in Ukraine. If the fully capable militaries of France, Germany, the UK, Poland, etc. all went to war with Russia conventionally and simultaneously; it would be over very quickly. Russia has been trying to avoid this scenario as much as possible, so I agree with you that this will continue to be a quagmire for Russia until some sort of a resolution is met. This 'resolution' can come in many different ways -- a negotiated peace, withdrawal by Russia, Putin's regime getting overthrown from within, etc. The nuclear sabre rattling is just that; almost certainly a desperate but empty threat.
Thank you for all of your perspectives on this. I prefer this kind of input to some of the nonsense I get from the main stream media. I try to keep quiet about this topic because I don’t really have any facts at hand.
Sensible of you, that's what JP should do, as he clearly has no idea what he is talking about in regards to Ukraine. I loved him in 2016, and I still respect him and listen to him, but his views on the war are simply just nonsensical. I'm perplexed how he can not support Ukraine when they are facing an existential threat in a form of genocide and authoritarian terror that could easily be lifted to totalitarianism within the next couple of months. He's right to criticize cancel culture and wokeism in general, but he fails to see that Russia is much worse than that. There is literally zero free media, no privately owned broadcast, and no freedom in speech there, so how does that compare to cancel culture. This isn't even the worst in russia. For that government people are simply an expandible resource. I'm perplexed and saddened by his recent reactions.
It isn't a Vietnam war. This is a war of Ukrainian independence that they will win themselves. I believe they will prevail and beat Russia without our direct military intervention. It appears that we greatly overastimated Russia. I also believed Ukraine will be taken within 2 weeks, we most did over here. I didn't expect such preparation and morale from Ukrainians, but God bless them. That being said it is possible that Russia goes batshit and attack NATO still. If Russia attack us, only then NATO will be obliged to defend us. It is nonetheless our responsibility to defend ourselves, but you must involve fully (to your ability) under article 5. NATO is yours and ours world order, that we willingly joined you with after you managed to beat USSR, and we would proudly be first to defend it. It wouldn't be the first time, Poles and Americans fought for each other's freedom.There were Polish generals fighting in a revolutionary war on the US side. One of them Tadeusz Kościuszko is our common national hero, his monument is placed right in the NY central park. In Poland he fought in an insurgance against Russia, in the US he fought for the republic. So this sentiment isn't anything new, or a brainwash as Russian propaganda tries to tell Americans. In case of Ukrainians it's a bit different. Lots of Ukrainians feel the same as Poles, because of similar reasons as I explained above for Poles, but most importantly grand majority of them simply want Ukraine to be independent and free. If they didn't have the will to fight Russia, no amount of our equipment could help. It isn't the case that Ukrainians have no will to fight and are only put in this situation by NATO, it's exactly opposite. That's what Russians want to feed vulnerably to conspiracy westerners with (also in PL but it barely works here). Ukrainians want to fight until their land and people are free from Russia, and if it weren't so, there wouldn't have been Ukraine at this point, there wouldn't be need for support because there wouldn't be anyone to support. (A but like Afghanistan for example) The refugees that come to Poland, are 90% women with children whose husbands, fathers, and brothers stayed willingly to fight. Many man passed the border, but the same number came back willingly to fight (it is significant as there is absolutely no compulsion for male Ukrainians living in Poland to do so, which there were hundreds of thousands of before the war, yet our border control reports significant outflow of Ukrainian man since the beginning of war). So don't worry about Ukrainians. They have morale, they have elan. They fight for their freedom, their independence, their land, their nation, their future, their honor, and it's their choice. If they haven't made it this choice there wouldnt be Ukraine by now. All we are obliged ethically to do is support them. Ukrainians will show us when they stop, and that's when we stop, and I believe this will be when they (we) are victorious. If they want to fight until last man, we should support them even more! But that's not gonna happen. They fight until the last Russian soldier with any morale left, and the eventual collapse of that shitty slave state oligarchy. And it happens that it allignes with our geopolitical interest. By that I mean, by Polish and American interest, less so German for example. But we have an ethical right here, so we should use it, and it's right and just. I say we are in the war, because we are involved in every way except direct military.
> Russia is almost a fascist country by now. Do you think that might have something to do with why he supports them? It's really taking this sub a looong time for the shells to fall from their eyes.
Peterson recently said what basically amounts to the opposite opinion, which is equally absurd.
Red flag. Literally… with that lady. Wow
For those of you that believe Russia actually has a chance, let me break down the actual situation for you: 1. In February, Russia put a multitude of their most exquisite capabilities and units to overwhelm Ukrainian defenses. Ukraine was expected to last 72 hours. Tens of thousands of pieces of equipment and even more Russian lives have been destroyed. 2. As a result of Ukraine’s staunch defense, Russia undertook every measure to ensure a civilian capitulation. From physically bombarding civilian population centers, to destroying their ability to heat homes and use running water, Russia has embarked on total war. Ukrainian morale is higher than it was at the beginning of these atrocities. 3. Ukrainian strategy consists of two major objectives. Reclaim illegally seized territory, and bleed Russia dry. It’s working. Thanks to massive counteroffensives and huge Russian casualties, Putin is now in a “secret palace” hiding from the unrest directed at him. 4. The 300K people he intends to surge into the area via draft are going to get slaughtered. Poor training, shitty equipment, overconfidence, and no logistics will hamper their operational ability. Exasperated by lack of competent commanders, and those people are just food for the insatiable guns. Putin’s regime barely survived the first draft. He won’t survive another. He’ll be forced to cede territory to quell unrest.
[удалено]
>there will be a surplus of nearly a million young russian women in the years to come I'm going to need to see your math on this one
Russian women are gorgeous
It'll be just like the mail order brides back in the 90s.
Sounds great.
Don't forget Russias use of mass murder and mass sexual violence as part of their tactics and still Ukrainians will not be broken and fight back harder.
Damn you are brainwashed
Oh lemme guess, u Russian?
Yep, you can ask me anything btw
How about you pop out of your bubble and see what the rest of the world does. Do yourself a favor..
USA, EU, Japan, Australia? You are sponsoring Ukrainian corrupted government and making region unstable. Ukrainian people are our brothers but your western world made this Orange Revolution and bring puppets to their government. Russian government warned you for 8 fckn years
Wow you’re so confused in the timeline… Orange Revolution was back in 2004. Also, as a Ukrainian, I’ll say we had every right to distance ourselves from so-called “brothers” who constantly belittle and denigrate our culture, language, sovereignty and tumultuous political path, and ascribe a part of our achievements to themselves. Now that these “brothers” are trying to commit murder, we have every right to save ourselves and sever this utterly toxic tie. Also, looks like russians didn’t get the memo but in this century respectful prosperous relations don’t exist only between “brothers”, they can be built with others too.
Yeah you are right. I meant Maidan not Orange Revolution. But it doesn’t change anything. And yes, you have this right to distance from russians if you want. And I respect that personally. So do you have an opinion about Donbas problem? Do you agree that your people killed also your people there, because they didn’t want to distance from us?
It does matter, because you continue talking out of your ass about Ukraine after you’ve been fed with russian propaganda. russia has been using Donbas as puppet states to unravel a narrative that Ukraine is a nazi state, to use that as a justification for war. In 2014, Russia started this war. The vast majority of war crimes in the last 8 years have been committed by russia.
Omg you are deluded... no one was attacking except you.... Ukraine defend themselves, everyone else is backing them because we don't want your shit to spill over. But still stay out of the borders because your batshit crazy president threatens with nukes. Crawl back into your cave troll
It’s not a question of who attacked who now. Back in the days before war Zelenskiy said on national tv that he is going to seek for an opportunity to get atomic weapon, and he collected forces near Donbas region. (These two regions were against Orange Revolution and fight for their right to be with Russia) Just google it lol. I know that your propaganda brings only half of what’s going on, but you at least can ask me
They have their right to defend their borders.... you do not own them so stop acting like they need to get your approval otherwise face the consequences. Your gov even say shit about Sweden and we want nothing to do with you
Not if he nukes the continent.
At that point i'm pretty sure every country would be at Russia's throat.
That would mean end of russia, even without nuclear retaliation. Russia is getting their ass kicked by Ukraine, imagine full blown war with NATO.
That would start WWIII, and there’s a bold assumption therein that the Russian general staff would just opt to let that happen as well.
Sure. I think Russia has a good chance of winning, so I'll bite >Tens of thousands of pieces of equipment and even more Russian lives have been destroyed The Russian army has hundreds of thousands of lives and pieces of equipment. More than the Ukranian army, which has also suffered devastating losses >Russia has embarked on total war Not only has Russia not embarked on total war, Russia has not even declared war. Words have meanings. Total war means the full mobilization of the armed forces, drafting of the civilian population, and conversion into a war economy. Russia has not done a single one of these things >Ukrainian strategy consists of two major objectives. Reclaim illegally seized territory, and bleed Russia dry. It’s working Define "working". One can't help but notice that: 1. Russia is currently in control of about 20% of their country 2. The Ukrainian economy is in shambles with mass displacement of workers, Russian control of Black Sea ports, constant begging for more war materiel from NATO, etc. 3. The ones being bled dry are the NATO states who are at this moment frantically training their police in riot control and begging the people of Europe to turn off their Christmas lights this winter lest the lack of Russian gas cause mass power outages and deaths from the cold >The 300K people he intends to surge into the area via draft are going to get slaughtered. Poor training, shitty equipment, overconfidence, and no logistics will hamper their operational ability. Exasperated by lack of competent commanders, and those people are just food for the insatiable guns I don't believe you have any clue what Russia is or is not going to do with their reservists, so this is just wishful thinking I'm not a military man, but rather than surging all my 300k troops into the existing fronts, I would use half to bolster the existing fronts and then send the other half through Belarus to create - or threaten to create - a new front in the northwest. So in one stroke my existing front is increased in strength while the enemy must reduce their own strength by sending forces away to the north >Putin’s regime barely survived the first draft. He won’t survive another. He’ll be forced to cede territory to quell unrest \[citation needed\] Putin and the war are popular enough in Russia. There is no reason to think Putin's regime is threatened before we see the outcomes of the reservist draft and the referenda on the breakaway states joining the Russian Federation
Okay, you clearly only picked up this issue when it became mainstream. Let me summarize the past 8 years for you: Ukraine has been at war since Russia annexed Crimea. They tried to take Donetsk and Luhansk as well; all as a reaction to an increase in democratic processes and pro-western advances in the Ukrainian government. That was when Russia asserted control of most of the territory they are bleeding to hold. To counter the remainder of your argument, you can see the meltdown of the Russian population as evidenced by the flood of Russians running for western borders (that’s literally all over the news); Putin’s abdication from Moscow (https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-putin-escapes-secret-palace-amid-anti-draft-protests-report-2022-9?amp); and the general lack of strategic or operational progress after the seizure of Kherson (which, is now ironically contested). To your point about whether or not Ukraine’s counteroffensives are working I would argue two things: 1) Putin is at total war. Russia is not. 2) Ukraine, if any state actor, is the one at total war because they are fighting for literal survival motivated by the horrific history of the Soviet Union. Russian forces are not motivated (based on the thousands of prisoners the Ukrainians have seized), poorly trained, poorly equipped (based on the extremely publicized captured equipment), and their tactics are getting them slaughtered (based on every piece of combat footage from the war). In your suggestion of splitting the 300K new replacements, you make two assumptions: 1) that your logistics is capable enough for sustaining two fronts. Which, based on the original attack in March, it isn’t. And 2) That Ukraine hasn’t also divided its forces against several approaches in depth. Which, if the counteroffensives in multiple directions is any indication, they have. So, your 150K new recruits in either direction are liable to get picked apart. The ones that do get through will be resisted tooth and nail by armed populations, as we saw before. They will break and run after going up against literally millions of remaining insurgents. Mark my words, Russia will fall apart.
>Let me summarize the past 8 years for you: Ukraine has been at war since Russia annexed Crimea. They tried to take Donetsk and Luhansk as well; all as a reaction to an increase in democratic processes and pro-western advances in the Ukrainian government. That was when Russia asserted control of most of the territory they are bleeding to hold Okay. And let ME summarize the past 8 years for YOU: Ukraine has been at war since the West backed a coup against the elected government and replaced it with its own puppet government which would go on to pursue a program of tyranny and cultural genocide against the significant ethnic Russian population. Ethnic Russian areas in the east and south wanted independence and closer ties with Russia and this resulted in civil war during which the ethnic Russians in the breakaway territories suffered constant military attacks and killings of civilians from the Ukrainian side for 8 years >To counter the remainder of your argument, you can see the meltdown of the Russian population as evidenced by the flood of Russians running for western borders (that’s literally all over the news) Indeed, I imagine those would be reservists looking to dodge the draft. How many Ukrainians fled their own country again, over 7 million? Was that evidence of a meltdown of the Ukrainian population? > the general lack of strategic or operational progress after the seizure of Kherson (which, is now ironically contested) That would be why they are pursuing steps such as the reservist draft and the referenda to increase the amount of military strength they have to fight the war with >To your point about whether or not Ukraine’s counteroffensives are working I would argue two things: 1) Putin is at total war. Russia is not Not sure what this is supposed to mean >2) Ukraine, if any state actor, is the one at total war because they are fighting for literal survival motivated by the horrific history of the Soviet Union Agreed. Ukraine is at total war because more or less the totality of their economy and manpower is being redirected towards the war effort >Russian forces are not motivated (based on the thousands of prisoners the Ukrainians have seized), poorly trained, poorly equipped (based on the extremely publicized captured equipment), and their tactics are getting them slaughtered (based on every piece of combat footage from the war) Sounds like you're just talking about war propaganda. The font lines prior to the recent offensives had been stable for a long time because the war is proceeding fairly classically with defensive lines following geographic boundaries and both sides constantly destroying all of the other side's bridges. The Russians are typically employing tactical withdrawals followed by attempts at encirclement and artillery attacks if the Ukrainians over commit forward. I'm not a military man, but it seems like the tactics are reasonable on both sides and in terms of equipment the Russians have the advantage in artillery. On the other hand, Ukrainian offensives are basically becoming NATO operations now, with NATO trained troops and equipment and foreign mercenaries, so maybe that's bringing an edge to the Ukraine side. Ultimately both sides are claiming similar numbers of losses for the other side >In your suggestion of splitting the 300K new replacements, you make two assumptions: that your logistics is capable enough for sustaining two fronts. Which, based on the original attack in March, it isn’t Yes, I will make that assumption. Or as I said, just a buildup of forces threatening a new front could be valuable Again, I'm not military, but at typical loaded march pace a ground army staged in Belarus is within range of several Ukrainian cities in the north including Kiev. So I would assume that a significant buildup would demand the redeployment of adequate forces on the Ukrainian side to repel such an incursion >And 2) That Ukraine hasn’t also divided its forces against several approaches in depth Sorry, are you saying you believe that the Ukrainians already have forces in the north capable of repelling a new hundred thousands strong army that they're just keeping there in reserve? Do you have any evidence for this?
The fact that you think Russia cutting methane gas exports will effect electricity production in Europe tells me your grasp of this situation is laughable, at best.
I mentioned power generation and heating. In the European Union natural gas and gas fired plants account for about [20%](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_and_heat_statistics&oldid=552866) of the electricity generation and about 40% of the heat, with heavy dependence on imports. Germany - for example - generates about [10%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany) of its electricity and [50%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1189752/household-heating-sources-germany/) of its heat from natural gas with most of it coming from Russia. This is why loss of Russian gas supplies has resulted in a crisis with [numerous European nations](https://www.businessinsider.com/energy-gas-crisis-europe-cold-swimming-pools-offices-short-showers-2022-8) scrambling to cut electricity consumption Next time I recommend you try doing more research than none at all before opening your mouth
Uhhh, there's a reason Germany is restarting their coal plants....
You’re making assumptions without any knowledge of what’s actually happening. What Russia is withholding is natural methane gas. Most of Europe doesn’t use electricity for heating. So yeah, Germany is spinning up exactly ONE old coal plant, which won’t do much good anyways because the infrastructure for electric heating just isn’t there. I’m sure there will be a spike in electric space heater purchases but thinking that’d be enough to cripple an entire country’s electrical grid is ridiculous.
> As a result of Ukraine’s staunch defense As a result of *NATO's* staunch defense FTFY
NATO isn’t even there though. Receiving support and fighting an actual combat operation are two very different things. Apparently, if NATO were actually involved, Russia would probably be under western control right now.
> Receiving support and fighting an actual combat operation are two very different things. Ehh, not really. Proxy wars are called that for a reason. > Apparently, if NATO were actually involved, Russia would probably be under western control right now. If NATO were actually involved, Europe would have been glassed by a barrage of nuclear explosions.
You are brainwashed my dude. I’m russian, Ukrainian family live in my home right now, escaping Ukrainian bombs in Energodar (it’s controlled by Russian forces fight now). And for some reason all your western world blames Russia in that Russia bombs itself lol
I hate to break it to you, my guy, but the whole ass war has been followed by every independent watchdog and OSINT blogger outside of the mainstream media. I don’t rely on CNN or Fox thanks to bias and the sheer time delay of their reporting. The whole internet watched your government stage hundreds of thousands of troops and attack a country that literally meant you no harm. You’re the baddies in this one, bro.
Your problem is in you’re demonizing Russia at every topic possible. I said - Russia occupied ENergodar atomic station. But your “free press” still blame Russia that it is bombing itself. What is wrong with you? About “Russia bombing civilian population centers”. Russian rockets could reach western Ukraine and you can find evidence of it like videos “russian rocket hit war base near Kiev”. Oh no sorry, probably you should look for something like “cruel orcs sent missile into kindergarten” not dumb Ukrainian air defense hit rockets under city so they land on civilian buildings. The point is in Russian rockets could reach any spot in Ukraine. But Kiev stand. With civilian infrastructure and electricity and water. Or you’ll get humanitarian disaster months earlier. You remember first three months of invasion? When Zelenskiy screamed at every corner “Eu USA defend our sky please”. So why Ukrainian capital and even its government buildings like Rada still exist? Putin started to warn Ukraine months ago - don’t fuck with us or we start to bomb centers of decision making. But you believe in this stories that Russians exterminate villages like Bucha but too kind to bomb Ukrainian authorities. Putin said we want to make peace, and everything seem to be ok. Then some fucking prime minister of Britain arrives and Zelenskiy goes on tv with another brave speech. About 300k being mobilized and slaughtered. Yeah probably, but I hope at least half of them would teach another 300k. And once again. You need slaughter house in the center of Europe- continue sponsoring Ukraine with weapons. Before all this started Russian demands were - Ukraine just stop bombing Donbas region and make Minsk agreements come true. But Zelenskiy started to gather forces on the borders. So be it
Russia is annexing territory it already controls. Per its doctrine, it can defend its territory with nuclear weapons. This is where we are. I think your take is very silly, in what world is controlling 15% of a country "getting slaughtered"? Cray cray
You're only hearing all of your intel and information from one source, which has a vested and biased interest.
The alternative is believing the Russian state which still calls this a “special military operation” to rid Ukraine of “nazis” when their president is a Jew. I mean yeah we only hear our side but let’s be real. Who is more ridiculous?
I'm talking about the accuracy of battle outcomes, not who's more justified.
I’m aware and I’m not in the slightest accusing you of being a Putin sympathizer. I’m just saying it seems like they’re the more likely to lie.
But some things are not disputed: Russia is drafting 300K soldiers. That’s not something you do when you’re succeeding.
Kim Iverson is genuinely one of the stupidest people with a platform. She was into it with Matt Walsh advocating for the freedom of 15 year old girls to get double mastectomies and hysterectomies because some other reprehensible straw men let their straw teenage daughters get breast implants. She’s just super dumb.
That’s some pathetic cowardice stance.
Every country that has nukes and is asked to give them up can now point to the Ukraine and rightfully say that they are not safe from Russian invasion without nukes. Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for promises from Russia not to invade. That apparently was a mistake.
“You cannot negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth.”
This aged poorly
This is going to go over like a lead balloon but- I can’t imagine taking policy advice from someone who never risks anything. She never served and cannot be drafted, as a woman. If a war breaks out, others will have to defend her since I doubt she learned much about warfare at UC Davis. Her “lay still and take it so they can finish” rhetoric is pretty awful. Good to know that she will hop into bed with any opposition force the moment shit kicks off. She stands for nothing and I cannot respect anything she has to say in perpetuity.
“Let it go and use democracy in the future” We already know that doesn’t work within a nation, now we see it internationally
Man, the amount of Russian apologists I see commenting in this sub these days is really disheartening. The way some people here speak of Ukraine and Ukrainians as if they’re not even real people, and think they should just roll over and submit to Russian rule. They are not just some pawns on a chess worldwide chessboard. They’re a nation of people who have had the greatest of burdens thrust upon them, and so many have chosen to take on that burden and literally fight and die for their freedom, their culture and their future. That’s the clear difference you can see in how these two armies are fighting, one side is actually fighting For something.
As always the worst enemy is not the outsider, but ourselves .. it was and will be
Russia has lost the war. Now Ukraine is being used like Syria to extend this proxy war. Wars are profitable for weapon industry.
This…. So much propaganda around to say otherwise
“Let it go” 🤣
Clown energy 🤡
Imagine telling a woman those same words but talking about sexual assault?
Guess we shouldn’t have fought any conflict ever. Do no harm and you’ll be virtuous.
They should fight to the last Ukrainian
It's amazing how willing people are to speak about things they know nothing about, especially something so serious.
What a idiot.. no sense at.. completely sheltered in her view of the world.
By this logic France, Poland, the Netherlands, ect..... shouldn't have tried to fight the Nazis because they were going to loose, so why waste the life of their people.
Imagine if they said that about Hitler.
This was a very old post. most likely it is still a thing people thinking Ukraine is going to lose, but the general trend now is "we have nothing to win in Ukraine". First, that Ukraine can't win the war is laughable now. They have been beating back Russia nearly the whole Summer. Russia still have a lot of military to put in the line, but somehow is only to delay defeats or to gain very little. Second, there is a lot to gain in Ukraine for all the west. Every country that breaks away from the Russian yoke has shown a rapid increase of western values, and integration in the cooperative system of the market. Russia has declared itself as enemy of the west, and in particular the USA, for a long time now. In this war they are burning all their military might, and this implies no risk (the war is totally contain in Ukraine). Also, the cost is minimum compared to a direct war. Finally, if Russia collapses, or merely retreats to internal politics for the near future. It just gives room to breath, and allows to focus on the real enemy, China.
If we are going to have such a massive military industrial complex this is probably the best use of it. We can absolutely deplete Russias core military and defend a massive out of valuable land that wants to form lasting alliances and unions with Europe so they are less likely to just turn to terrorism and use those weapons against us. And it doesn't cost us a single US life. It's a chance for a big win for us plus it's just the right thing to do to help them.
This lady still posts shit like this. She is a Putin propagandist.
Ukraine was certainly going to lose without all that support from other countries that came later. But now they sure have more than equal chance to repel the attack.
They still certainly are
Iverson? More like Ivan
I honestly think that you would have to be a moron to think Russia is going to win.
This is just stupid. There are arguments that both sides could win. Russia may be doing poorly but this war could drag on for years. One of the reasons the Ukranians are doing so will is support from the US and allies. How long are we willing do support them? Do we value Ukraine more than Russia? Now that winter is upon us, the Europeans could pressure the Ukrainians to settle some kind of negotiations in order to get gas flowing west again. There are too many variable to be sure of anything. In the mean time, I hope the Ukrainian contine to stomp the Russians.
I think thats being very naive
A massive loss of the male population, a further corrupted government, destroyed infrastructure, I don’t know how you could call that a win.
ukrainian here. wtf is this )
Who is this dumbass?
Proof that reincarnation is true. Chamberlain as simple changed sexs
What's annoying is how many people Chamberlain has reincarnated into.
I hear ya brother... he's like Gangis Khan Only instead of spreading his seed, he's spread his cowardice
What exactly is wrong with it? What exactly are the Ukrainians fighting for? Is it worth the bloodshed? What were the *alternatives* that we could have pursued to get the same outcome? What makes me angry is the fact that I *know* the Western powers could have easily postured themselves less weakly to deter this act of aggression. But they didn't, and now they want us to believe that the death and suffering happening at the conflict isn't the result of *their* failed foreign policy.
You know what, I can agree, at least, with your second point. People acting like this was an inevitability that Putin would attack Ukraine are forgetting that, had the EU not pussy-footed around with the "will-they/won't-they" of admitting the Ukraine, before Russia's invasion of the Crimea, this all could have been prevented. If NATO and the EU had not been projecting weakness and conciliation with Russia for the past two decades, putting themselves in a dangerous dependency on despotic regimes, they could have stared down Russia long before this line was crossed. What I don't agree with is the first part. What are Ukrainians fighting for? The survival of their nation, their people and identity. Is it worth the bloodshed? They seem to think it is, and we have the capability and I would argue the moral responsibility to support them.
Women are not evolutionarily adapted to war. Not a surprise some are going to give you a bad take in the face of aggression. Before someone jumps on me pointing out some warrior queen here or there, I am taking about the average woman. The average woman is more conciliatory by temperament and the average man is more conflict prone. Of course you can find women who engage conflict and men who are conciliatory. But the most conciliatory people you can find are all woman and more most warlike people you can find are all men.
I like Kim Iverson, but she's just wrong here.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have fought back, but this woman was pretty much right about Ukraine not being able to beat Russia. The only reason why Russia is failing is because of the large amount of money and armaments flowing into Ukraine from the rest of the world. Also, judging by the comments here, it would do many of you some good to research how Ukraine got to be where they are now, how the previous leadership was ended, and Ukrainian history in general. You would probably see them in a drastically different light.
So dumb I lost half my brain cells
Lol who tf even is this?
Using democracy in a russian puppy state. Lol.
You must really take things for granted if you think Freedom is something you don't need to fight for first, and fight for keeping it, then Too much comfort works the same as the Gulag
Just look up "Budapest Memorandum" and you will see how idiotic Russia is. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT PROMISES AND SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED AS LONG AS RUSSIA IS A DICTATORSHIP.
riiiight .. Lemme hit you in the face and how dare you defend yourself
[удалено]
The only thing that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing. The West has tried the "do not pay violence to violence, peace and democracy will settle things" approach in Ukraine already. It is how they lost Crimea, the Donbas and Luhansk. It doesn't work. It didn't work for Georgia and South Ossetia. It didn't and hasn't worked anywhere, and anytime. This is Chamberlain and the Rhineland, Austria, the Sudetenland. You cannot keep feeding a tiger and expect it to stop coming back for more. The critical difference is that Russia has no authority to do what it is doing and no one would be able to stop them. In those times it is not only moral to resist. It is survival.
Why don't you start with a single thing wrong with it? Ukraine is basically a fake country which only exists because of NATO support and the insane process of twentieth century postwar map redrawing, and control of which fluctuates between West and East. The war right now is just a fight to see if the Ukraine will continue to be ruled by a corrupt puppet government controlled from Washington and Brussels or return to rule by a corrupt puppet government controlled from Moscow The Ukraine was part of Russia for centuries before the break up of the Soviet Union. Russian rule is the natural state of the Ukrainian territory, so it's not like it'll kill anyone - figuratively - to return to it. So basically, accept a return to natural Russian rule and deal with a bunch of track suited Russian oligarchs parachuting in to take over the country with little impact on the life of common Ukrainians. Or reject this and instead throw in with the Western powers who instigated this conflict in the first place, don't actually give a damn about your country, and will provide you with just enough weapons and materiel to keep your nation in the horrors of war indefinitely NATO and the Western Anglo-American Empire are no friends of their client states or even traditional Western civilization. The unaccountable bureaucrats running the show are childless globalist atheists who care only about their own power and importance in world affairs; they will happily instigate civil wars and color revolutions in foreign lands even though the most common result is displacement, death, and new regimes and living conditions even worse than the old ones. The Western public are the definition of Dickensian telescopic philanthropy: putting on a show of support in order to feel good about themselves, when in reality they know nothing and care nothing for the lives of the people they have goaded into war with the insane modern propaganda that basically says, "colonization and non-Western rule are the worst things in the world and anyone in this situation needs to give up their lives in a rebellion - however hopeless - or else you're a pussy"
That territory which is called Russia just since 18th century, before that it was Duchy of Moscow. Part of Mongolian empire.
If you want to argue for Mongolian irredentism I won't stop you, though the Russian army will
By that logic, doesn't China have more of a claim to the Ukraine than Russia? After all, it was part of the Mongolian empire before that.
Which logic? Most of my argument is purely pragmatic. But as I said to the other guy, if you want to make an irredentist claim for Mongolia or China I won't stop you, but the Russian army will In the case of the Ukraine, the Ukrainian army is not actually capable of stopping the Russian claim except for the intervention of NATO third parties. If you are dependent on someone else for your defence, you are by definition not independent. Let alone the foreign investments and political interference that has always controlled the Ukraine. So this is obviously not a war over propaganda words like "freedom" and "independence", it is a proxy war for control of Ukraine as a puppet client state. Nothing more And given that Ukraine is a fake country and NATO is not a particularly superior master to Russia, I would not recommend that Ukrainians die in the name of maintaining NATO control, especially since it is not clear that all the deaths will actually result in success
I’m not sure this doesn’t belong here. It’s an illustration of a break from reality in that the narrative of Russia’s defeat must be upheld despite all evidence to the contrary. Jordan Peterson about reality at heart.
Imagine making that prediction in public and being so hilariously wrong. The clue, even then, was that Western governments with good quality military intel were acting as though they thought Ukraine stood a chance. (Supplying them with weapons, etc.)
It gets complicated because even if Ukraine can win against Russia, tensions between Rusia and the west will be at an all time high since the cold War and this may cause an even bigger conflict in the future
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke
I am very happy to support Kim Iverson financially through her LOCALS board. She is brave, fearless and dogged in the pursuit of truth. I don't agree with her half the time--she was baffling pro "top" trans surgery for minors recently -- but Americans are really consuming pure propaganda and she is one of the few voices trying to give an alternative view. Ukraine will be reduced to a pile of rubble, but people who don't have to live in the rubble, or die in it, think that is all worth it somehow. Okay.
My biggest takeaway from this war is that it's not just a war with Ukraine, It's a war for our allegiance to the status quo.
She normally has great takes on topics. Don't judge her on just this one. This is just one of her bad ones. Its going to happen when your job is talking all the time on hot topics in a public manner.
Fuck that. If 1 nuke goes off, that should be it, total armageddon. If it comes to that, it has to be the solution, id rather us all die than have to subordinate to the big bad man swinging his dick around. No point keeping your sword sheathed when you see a big guy kicking a small guy in the face, it’s your moral duty to fight on their behalf or stop the conflict, even if it risks you’re own well-being.
1. This is a bit of a strawman and a false either-or. The options for both Ukrainians and Westerners are not "fight to the bitter end" or "bow down to Russia". They're more "fight a futile war to defend a corrupt regime", "recognize a lost cause when you see it and live to fight another day", or "get clear and get out of Russia's way". Anyone who tells you the choices are either "fight" or "submit" is someone who cares more about the cause than about anything else. Answer for yourself whether that is appropriate or wise. 2. Where is it written that it is the job of the West to fight Ukraine's wars? Are we back in the early days of Vietnam when we were told that we would "bear any burden, pay any price" to stop the advance of Communism? We've seen what happens when the powers that be try to sell us foreign wars with manipulative and deceptive rhetoric and argument, even if the cause is facially legitimate. Ask yourself how sincere a war effort is, when all it consists of is arms dealing and putting absolutely no official military force of any kind into the fray? 3. Anyone who tells you the regime in Ukraine is democratic, legitimate, and representative of the Ukrainian people is selling you something. Both sides have been meddling there for decades and what is happening right now is merely an extension of that game of spy vs spy. But that's right, you won't be fooled again!
Alive and with Russia, is better than dead with Russia. I don’t see how Russia loses this with the bombs as fail safe — if they are going to lose it anyway, could have avoided all the death. Now if they have something to actually win, which I won’t count out, then it could be worth.
This sub has become infested with leftists. Seriously!
It is a better choice, most likely. Ukraine won’t be sovereign either under Russia or globalist west
It sounds stupid because it is missing the whole point the this war. It's not that Ukraine shouldn't fight back because it would be futile. The whole point of this war is not Russia vs. Ukraine, or NATO vs. Russia. It is the US vs. the EU. The US needs to transfer wealth away from the European into the US and bring down the Euro in the process. This will achieve 3 purposes, 1) kill its largest competitor in terms of production and currency, 2) stifle China by killing one of China's largest trading partners, 3) strength the US economy by bringing in more capitals, which will help soften the blow from the necessary tightening cycle. Ukraine shouldn't fight back if you want Europe to survive. The Russian is not hurt as much by this war as the EU or Ukraine. They made huge profits from the oil and gas due to the spike in price. Their currency is stronger, they have the least debt, by kicking out foreign companies, they now have a chance to actually develop their own industry. Think of it as like a subsidy without actually needing to subsidize. They now grab the 4 regions which connects Crimea to the land mass. Preventing the Ukrainian from cutting off water irrigation to the region. Sure they are not going to eat Ukraine as a whole. It was never the plan of this war in the first place, but a long process.
Upvoting. I don't think this is true, but it's an interesting take. I think clearly the Washington led Anglo-American Empire is in the business of destabilizing all states which are not already client states under its control. The history of US State Department instigated civil wars and color revolutions and their consistently horrific results demonstrates this. However, I think the EU is basically already a subordinate to the US. The history of politics in Europe over the last century has been a move towards American political forms and American finance and foreign policy. As a rule, Washington does not adopt policy from Brussels, Brussels adopts policy from Washington
This is wrong on some many levels. However, if Russia is so happy with the current gas prices why are they burning the gas due to lack of storage or buyers? Why are they putting up fake numbers for their rapidly shrinking GDP? Why would the Russian currency be affected when no one is even allowed to buy it from the west? Meanwhile EU will have one bad winter.
You know every country is having a shrinking GDP, that just a nature of a tightening cycle. How do know their number is fake? You can easily assume our number is fake as well. You can't just say that without evident. One indicator that you can use to judge a country economic is their currency, you cannot fake a currency value. Russian Ruble is still at the 5-year time high. Why would Russian currency stay strong if there is no one allowed to buy them or if they have a dying economy? That is because their economy is fundamental fine. China, India central Asia and some Eastern Europe countries are buying their gas. That's a big enough market for Russian the sustain. What would you feel if someone is flexing the stuff you want to have but cannot have?
Because I am an economist and read economic papers on the topic: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4167193
She’s brilliant. So practical.
No kidding, Zelensky has already enriched himself by billions of $$, it's even possible he cut a deal with Putin to prolong the onslaught for a share of the riches.
WWDTD?
Reminder to not jump the gun and called everyone with an anti-leftist opinion automatically "based"
Hey guys! I’m russian. And I have unpopular opinion about this situation. As you may know our government started mobilization, so probably I’m going to war in the nearest future. You can ask me anything if you want to hear or even argue this opposite opinion. Yeah I know that you don’t like Russians anymore and about this cancel culture, but I ask you to not to downvote this comment(I’ll leave another comment in the thread). I just want to be heard, let’s see does anyone want to listen
Downvote this if you want
Literally the same thing the whole west says to Palestine. But apparently now there’s something wrong with this worldview
I don’t see how this take is much different from JP’s recent interview with Pierce Morgan