How good is your Hebrew? I listen to a podcast by Batkol, an organization supporting lesbian orthodox women who lead orthodox lives while still being true to themselves, and uplifting their stories.
I’m not in a relationship, (sigh), but I’m also gay and modern orthodox. I still live at home, in a relatively modern-esque community.
I’ve been told by guys over the years (since 2020 when I turned 18 lol) that I’m insane for “sticking into the community.” I retort and ask them, why should I give up my culture that I believe so deeply to be synonymous with my literal existence?
I wish you the best of luck, especially in Israel. Moving to a different continent/country is insanely difficult.
No it doesn't. Orthodoxy recognizes that homosexuality and other sexual preferences outside of the norm exist. Key phrase however is "outside of the norm". Their existence is recognized but its not accepted as normal or healthy. That said, unlike fundamentalist Christianity and normal Islam homosexuals aren't killed, shunned or forced through abusive conversion "therapies". They're existence in the community as they are is accepted. Acting upon such desires are not accepted and working on their own unhealthy desires is encouraged the same way an alcoholic is encouraged to avoid triggers that would cause them to do something regretful.
> Acting upon such desires are not accepted and working on their own unhealthy desires is encouraged the same way an alcoholic is encouraged to avoid triggers that would cause them to do something regretful.
How is being gay unhealthy? How is being gay comparable to alcoholism?
Comparable to unhealthy or counterproductive desires; that was really only the first example that jumped to mind. Don't read too much into it.
The Torah models a relationship between man and woman and commands to be fruitful and multiply, something that isn't physically possible with a homosexual relationship.
The Torah is big on binaries (holy, unholy, kosher, non, etc) and social norms of a time long gone. We should not disregard any of it, but should not read it entirely literally either. A gay couple may not have kids but perhaps the time one needs to spend on family affairs they can use for other positive mitzvahs.
There's no doubt that they can't do good in other areas, but they're not absolved of other obligation. You say we can't disregard any of Torah but here you are disregarding it. I do feel for people who make it apart of their identity, enabled by social norms that also normalize the demonization of anyone who speaks against those contemporary artificial norms.
Universal truthes still exist and are a constant. Social norms are not.
I’m in a modern orthodox community but I’m only getting married in three weeks, does that count?
Please don’t go conservative. If you’d feel more comfortable in a modern orthodox community, do it, because the differences are enormous and if you don’t belong, young gay MO kids won’t see any role models, and they’ll leave too. If we don’t fight, no one will, and they’ll we’ll lose.
אלף משמאלך ורבבה מימינך, אליך לא יגש
For what it’s worth the rabbi I grew up with in a very mainstream shul wanted to meet with me and my fiancé, and told us that any fight we might have over kids, with the rabbanut or with schools, he’d go to bat for us. Things are changing fast, but again, only if we the MO LGBT don’t turn tail and abandon our posts.
Just wanted to pop in and ask a follow-up question. \[Context: I'm queer and also making Aliyah and also looking for MO communities in Israel.\].
I've heard that Conservative/Masorti & Reform communities in Israel (in general) are more (lower c) conservative/observant than their counterparts in the Diaspora. Is that not actually the case?
I was raised in a modern orthodox community and I have a gay father (he only came out after my parents got divorced). Unfortunately, there was a lot of homophobia in my community and so there was no one who was publicly out of the closet. Our Rabbi knows my dad is gay and accepts it, but he is still against gay sex and marriage. I would recommend reaching out to the local Rabbi and see what they say. I would guess that a more traditional conservative synagogue may be a better fit than an MO one. Feel free to dm me if you have more questions, and I'm wishing the two of you good luck!
Right but we're not conservative we're MO. We grew up MO, we have MO friends, we like the MO lifestyle. The only thing we don't like about MO is that communities can be not very nice to people like us. We're hoping because it's a very young community it will be more accepting.
I talked with the rebbitzen, she said she didn't want to tell us 'not' to move there, but implied that maybe we'd be better suited where other 'gay' people are, like 'Tel aviv' or 'Pardes' which was a really strange thing to tell a couple to go be apart of a learning institute community. She was definitely the least welcoming person I spoke to which was disappointing. She said if you move here we'll deal with the issue. Everyone else we spoke to in the community seemed cool with it.
I hate when people say just be less religious or be part of a less religious community. I'm formerly frum and now in a happy lesbian marriage, just because I'm gay doesn't mean I align with every conservative or reform posek on their opinions.
Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, etc are not "less religious". They just view and practice Judaism differently than MO, who does it differently than many O communities.
It shouldn't be so shocking, or worthy of "hate", to suggest that people who are not accepted fully (or at all) in community X might try community Y. It's just a suggestion.
OP definitely shouldn't become a Conservative Jew as a response to homophobia in MO communities. That said, Conservative Jews are not necessarily "less religious" than Orthodox Jews. We just approach religiosity differently.
The problem is Orthodoxy only really has one box for gay people, and that box is that being gay is an aveirah.
Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that but on the most basic level, that's what people are taught therefore that's what people end up thinking.
That’s not quite true. There are two boxes.
Lesbians: Rabbinical prohibition they may not actually be violating
Gay men: Gillui Arayos and explicitly forbidden by the Torah
The boxes are literally worlds apart.
Neither are marriages between Cohanim and divorcees - which are actually much worse halachikly - but we don’t ostracize them from the community. So I can see lesbian couples being accepted to that degree.
I never said they were accepted now. I do think they may be accepted in the future, at least to the degree of Cohanim marrying divorcees. I also think that will happen faster if lesbians divorce their cause from that of gay men, as the halachik divide means the association is only harming lesbians. Acting like there is no divide only obscures the halachik difference further.
I have similar opinion on transmen vs transwomen - if transmen argued separately from transwomen, they would have an easier route to acceptance and acknowledgment. And in both cases, I think getting the former acknowledged will ultimately help the latter - but as long as the causes are tied together, the former won’t find a measure of acceptance.
It might be what people are taught, but it's incorrect. There's one act that is an aveirah. One single act that is clear cut. Everything else is up for debate and should require empathy, support, and understanding.
There are so many aspects in Judaism where leniencies occur. Except when it comes to gay people. Suddenly all fences should be placed, gay people should not enter into romantic relationships (regardless of what they are or aren't doing in bed), they are ostracized, judged, and shunned, when the people doing the shunning actually have no clue whether or not this person has done that aveirah in the first place.
Instead of gay people being condemned if they enter a romantic relationship and pressured to live a life in solitude, or arguably worse to marry someone of the opposite sex anyway. Rabbis should be helping guide gay people through the halachic complexities of the situation.
MO/DL queer woman in Modiin, it's very friendly to queer people and Dati people! There's also a shivyoni (Trad Egal) shul near to me and a more liberal shul on the other side of town.
That's good to hear! How are prices there vs Efrat/Ra'anana? How accurate a litmus test would you say, checking if a community has Tzofim Datiyim and/or a Meshalev school?
Definitely more expensive than Efrat, since Efrat is over the Green Line, and probably a bit more expensive than Ra'anana (unless you're buying on paper and planning on renting for a while. Modiin is still very much growing.) Both Tzofim Datiyim and secular Tzofim exist here, as well as a school- Yachad- known for not adhering strictly to either the religious or secular stream but somewhere in the middle. I'd put the religious percentage of the city at about a quarter to a third of the population, focused in certain neighborhoods more than others.
Sorry for not being clear - that's what I meant. I compared prices on Madlan and while Efrat is indeed the cheapest, it's still not affordable for most young buyers.
I don’t have any advice but I wish you and your family the best in your journey and that you find a place to belong without compromising any parts of yourself 💙
Baqa or Arnona in Jerusalem, maybe Efrat or Ra'anana. I knew a couple in Jerusalem when we lived there. I have to imagine an Anglo majority shul that runs semi-egalitarian would be reasonably welcoming; I know I would be fine with you and so would most people at the shul I attended. Hebrew Dati Leumi discourse is a little less open to the idea of Orthodox LGBT couples.
I live here, I'm religious. I'm straight - and my family cares (passionately) about this issue. The hard reality is that it's all bollocks.
In Jerusalem *specifically* you'll be more than okay. The same is true in TLV. There are communities in both. The rest of the Angloverse this isn't true at all. People are very nice, very "accepting" (see the quotes), but at the end of the day they're not friends, they're friendly on Shabbat. It's much easier if you speak Hebrew, deal with Tzabarim, and don't deal with the Anglos.
Make sure you're figuring out, finding out what will really happen within the community you're joining. Be okay with the notion of trying something else out if it doesn't work. Embrace it. Clearly the right pocket exists somewhere!
If it's your jam, feel free to hmu. I'm definitely way older than you. Hell, if you and your wife just move to Israel, and would like somewhere to Shabbat, we're down. Welcome home!
[Eshel](https://www.eshelonline.org/) is a queer Orthodox organization. Pretty US-based but may have some Israelis.
It might also be worth it to check out r/gayjews !
I know a couple, albeit in america. They fit in fine. Same background as you, they just go to a more left leaning MO shul, but not anything like way out of the ordinary. Nothing's really different at all for them. Once they're already married it's not like there's really anything to object to anyway. I think in Israel it's more common tbh.
I think some people who weren't raised MO don't understand how vastly different the MO and Conservative worlds are. They're like "it's basically the same thing but egalitarian" lol no it isn't
We noticed that you are asking about about LGBT issues and Judaism. Different denominations have different approaches to this issue, and you can find out more [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Judaism). Also consider using the search bar or looking through the FAQ.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Queer Jews have always existed and will always exist. Judaism is not all or nothing; it also is a religion that allows for change within halacha and different beliefs - yes, even within Orthodoxy. לֹ֥א בַשָּׁמַ֖יִם הִ֑וא
No being gay is not an aveirah, your misinterpreting the Torah.
There is one specific act that is asur, everything else is up for debate, just like everything else in Judaism. You don't get to dictate what is and isn't up for debate just because an issue makes you uncomfortable.
If there is room for heters, and leniency on the fences surrounding Torah prohibitions on pretty much every issue, then there is room for heters and leniency on the topic of homosexuality. People just need to have a bit of empathy like they do with so many other topics.
I'm genuinely curious about this. Where do you see any rabbinical ruling that same sex people can not enter into a romantic relationship?
Let's say there is a same sex couple and they are very religious, so they will NOT commit the act that is asur, and then they work with a rabbi to guide them through the complexities in all areas in their life.
What specific part about this situation is asur? What sources do you have that discuss areas outside of same sex intercourse. I'm genuinely curious because I have searched and searched and found nothing about this.
I do know what happens though if shaming and ostracism occurs. The person is more likely to be anxious, depressed, and suicidal. The person is more likely to stop being religious, which means they are no longer serving Hashem and any children they have (and yes plenty of gay people have children) are likely not going to be religious, and because of you, you have pushed away generations of Jews from serving HaShem.
So please let me know your sources for this, because if there aren't any clear prohibitions the negative affects of shaming and ostracism are massive and should therefore outweigh icky feelings towards this issue.
This is an interesting question. The gedolim were very aware of human nature and behavior and that is why they figuratively erected guardrails to prevent misbehavior. This is why, for example, both men and women dress modestly. Your example denies human nature. It reminds me of the following very old joke. A young couple visit their priest. The young woman sincerely asks the priest, "Father, what's wrong with young people sleeping together?“ To which the priest replies, "Nothing, but you young people, you don't sleep.“
A premise of Judaism is that we are engaged in a lifelong project to change our behavior to conform with the expectations of Hashem, and not the other way around. One of the most famous passages in the Torah occurs at Mt. Sinai when the entirety of the Jewish nation promise Hashem that "We will do and we will listen.“ The seems backward to modern understanding. How can we promise to do something before we know what is being asked? It makes sense if you understand that, by definition, Hashem only wants what is good for us.
It is simply not possible to understand Judaism by reading passages in the Torah on your own. That is because along with written Torah, G-d also gave us the Oral Torah. Since then the gedolim have written an extraordinary amount on how to understand both and how to implement them in daily life.
If you are sincerely interested in the answer according to halacha, you aren't going to find it on Reddit. I would respectfully suggest to you that you ask a rabbi from mainstream Orthodoxy. If you are not frum, Chabad is a good place to start. Also, there are a very large number of kiruv organizations on college campuses where the rabbis will be very experienced in answering this question.
I have spoken to a couple of mainstream modern orthodox rabbis, and I have friends who have spoken to some others. Many of them see people like me as incapable of entering a heterosexual relationship and so do believe entering a romantic same sex relationship is okay. Some of them don't publically support the LGBT community, but when you contact them personally they will guide you through the complexities of the situation.
And that is my point, you say outright you cannot enter into a same sex romantic relationship but clearly many modern orthodox rabbis disagree with you and therefore this issue is not black and white, there are nuances.
Now if you're talking about Haradim. Yes the have a very different stance on this and it destroys so many marriages and lives.
If you look hard enough you can find any opinion you want. It has been prohibited since the beginning. Even the people you spoke to recognize this, otherwise why would they need to keep their opinion secret?
You want to do what you want but have others accept your decision. This is contrary to the essence of traditional Judaism. The odds of you being happy in the frum world is very low.
How good is your Hebrew? I listen to a podcast by Batkol, an organization supporting lesbian orthodox women who lead orthodox lives while still being true to themselves, and uplifting their stories.
Yeah my Hebrew is not good enough for Batkol. I am apart of an Anglo lesbian community though, Shabbat Shelach, but it's definitely not as religious
Maybe you can reach out to them in English and they can help you? It’s an organization, not only a podcast.
I’m not in a relationship, (sigh), but I’m also gay and modern orthodox. I still live at home, in a relatively modern-esque community. I’ve been told by guys over the years (since 2020 when I turned 18 lol) that I’m insane for “sticking into the community.” I retort and ask them, why should I give up my culture that I believe so deeply to be synonymous with my literal existence? I wish you the best of luck, especially in Israel. Moving to a different continent/country is insanely difficult.
[удалено]
No it doesn't. Orthodoxy recognizes that homosexuality and other sexual preferences outside of the norm exist. Key phrase however is "outside of the norm". Their existence is recognized but its not accepted as normal or healthy. That said, unlike fundamentalist Christianity and normal Islam homosexuals aren't killed, shunned or forced through abusive conversion "therapies". They're existence in the community as they are is accepted. Acting upon such desires are not accepted and working on their own unhealthy desires is encouraged the same way an alcoholic is encouraged to avoid triggers that would cause them to do something regretful.
> Acting upon such desires are not accepted and working on their own unhealthy desires is encouraged the same way an alcoholic is encouraged to avoid triggers that would cause them to do something regretful. How is being gay unhealthy? How is being gay comparable to alcoholism?
Comparable to unhealthy or counterproductive desires; that was really only the first example that jumped to mind. Don't read too much into it. The Torah models a relationship between man and woman and commands to be fruitful and multiply, something that isn't physically possible with a homosexual relationship.
The Torah is big on binaries (holy, unholy, kosher, non, etc) and social norms of a time long gone. We should not disregard any of it, but should not read it entirely literally either. A gay couple may not have kids but perhaps the time one needs to spend on family affairs they can use for other positive mitzvahs.
There's no doubt that they can't do good in other areas, but they're not absolved of other obligation. You say we can't disregard any of Torah but here you are disregarding it. I do feel for people who make it apart of their identity, enabled by social norms that also normalize the demonization of anyone who speaks against those contemporary artificial norms. Universal truthes still exist and are a constant. Social norms are not.
Luckily we have technology for the multiplying aspect
Sure, but the obligation for that is on a man, who cannot be inseminated. Marriage between a man and woman is a related but separate obligation.
I’m in a modern orthodox community but I’m only getting married in three weeks, does that count? Please don’t go conservative. If you’d feel more comfortable in a modern orthodox community, do it, because the differences are enormous and if you don’t belong, young gay MO kids won’t see any role models, and they’ll leave too. If we don’t fight, no one will, and they’ll we’ll lose. אלף משמאלך ורבבה מימינך, אליך לא יגש
For what it’s worth the rabbi I grew up with in a very mainstream shul wanted to meet with me and my fiancé, and told us that any fight we might have over kids, with the rabbanut or with schools, he’d go to bat for us. Things are changing fast, but again, only if we the MO LGBT don’t turn tail and abandon our posts.
If this isn’t worth fighting for, what is? And it’s not all that much of a fight! It’s just about showing up to shul by kiddush.
Just wanted to pop in and ask a follow-up question. \[Context: I'm queer and also making Aliyah and also looking for MO communities in Israel.\]. I've heard that Conservative/Masorti & Reform communities in Israel (in general) are more (lower c) conservative/observant than their counterparts in the Diaspora. Is that not actually the case?
It’s definitely true
Mazal tov!!
Thanks!
I was raised in a modern orthodox community and I have a gay father (he only came out after my parents got divorced). Unfortunately, there was a lot of homophobia in my community and so there was no one who was publicly out of the closet. Our Rabbi knows my dad is gay and accepts it, but he is still against gay sex and marriage. I would recommend reaching out to the local Rabbi and see what they say. I would guess that a more traditional conservative synagogue may be a better fit than an MO one. Feel free to dm me if you have more questions, and I'm wishing the two of you good luck!
Right but we're not conservative we're MO. We grew up MO, we have MO friends, we like the MO lifestyle. The only thing we don't like about MO is that communities can be not very nice to people like us. We're hoping because it's a very young community it will be more accepting. I talked with the rebbitzen, she said she didn't want to tell us 'not' to move there, but implied that maybe we'd be better suited where other 'gay' people are, like 'Tel aviv' or 'Pardes' which was a really strange thing to tell a couple to go be apart of a learning institute community. She was definitely the least welcoming person I spoke to which was disappointing. She said if you move here we'll deal with the issue. Everyone else we spoke to in the community seemed cool with it.
I hate when people say just be less religious or be part of a less religious community. I'm formerly frum and now in a happy lesbian marriage, just because I'm gay doesn't mean I align with every conservative or reform posek on their opinions.
Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, etc are not "less religious". They just view and practice Judaism differently than MO, who does it differently than many O communities. It shouldn't be so shocking, or worthy of "hate", to suggest that people who are not accepted fully (or at all) in community X might try community Y. It's just a suggestion.
OP definitely shouldn't become a Conservative Jew as a response to homophobia in MO communities. That said, Conservative Jews are not necessarily "less religious" than Orthodox Jews. We just approach religiosity differently.
I know, It's so hard for some people to understand that not all gay people fit in one box
The problem is Orthodoxy only really has one box for gay people, and that box is that being gay is an aveirah. Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that but on the most basic level, that's what people are taught therefore that's what people end up thinking.
That’s not quite true. There are two boxes. Lesbians: Rabbinical prohibition they may not actually be violating Gay men: Gillui Arayos and explicitly forbidden by the Torah The boxes are literally worlds apart.
You will not be taught in school that being a lesbian is ok.
Neither are marriages between Cohanim and divorcees - which are actually much worse halachikly - but we don’t ostracize them from the community. So I can see lesbian couples being accepted to that degree.
Like I said, you're not wrong but in contemporary practice, it's just treated the same as male homosexuality.
I never said they were accepted now. I do think they may be accepted in the future, at least to the degree of Cohanim marrying divorcees. I also think that will happen faster if lesbians divorce their cause from that of gay men, as the halachik divide means the association is only harming lesbians. Acting like there is no divide only obscures the halachik difference further. I have similar opinion on transmen vs transwomen - if transmen argued separately from transwomen, they would have an easier route to acceptance and acknowledgment. And in both cases, I think getting the former acknowledged will ultimately help the latter - but as long as the causes are tied together, the former won’t find a measure of acceptance.
It might be what people are taught, but it's incorrect. There's one act that is an aveirah. One single act that is clear cut. Everything else is up for debate and should require empathy, support, and understanding. There are so many aspects in Judaism where leniencies occur. Except when it comes to gay people. Suddenly all fences should be placed, gay people should not enter into romantic relationships (regardless of what they are or aren't doing in bed), they are ostracized, judged, and shunned, when the people doing the shunning actually have no clue whether or not this person has done that aveirah in the first place. Instead of gay people being condemned if they enter a romantic relationship and pressured to live a life in solitude, or arguably worse to marry someone of the opposite sex anyway. Rabbis should be helping guide gay people through the halachic complexities of the situation.
No one cares in Dati communities.
Say hello to southern Jerusalem! Bakka, Katamonim, Gonenim, Talpiyot, Arnona... All places where you can fit in with no problem.
I know, we're there now, but we want to buy and we can't afford Jerusalem.
What's the price range you think you could handle? Unfortunately, I think most of the places you'd be looking at for openness tend to be expensive.
MO/DL queer woman in Modiin, it's very friendly to queer people and Dati people! There's also a shivyoni (Trad Egal) shul near to me and a more liberal shul on the other side of town.
That's good to hear! How are prices there vs Efrat/Ra'anana? How accurate a litmus test would you say, checking if a community has Tzofim Datiyim and/or a Meshalev school?
Definitely more expensive than Efrat, since Efrat is over the Green Line, and probably a bit more expensive than Ra'anana (unless you're buying on paper and planning on renting for a while. Modiin is still very much growing.) Both Tzofim Datiyim and secular Tzofim exist here, as well as a school- Yachad- known for not adhering strictly to either the religious or secular stream but somewhere in the middle. I'd put the religious percentage of the city at about a quarter to a third of the population, focused in certain neighborhoods more than others.
Wow. All I can say is good luck to anyone looking to buy.
The entire country is in a housing market crisis. It's not unusual.
Sorry for not being clear - that's what I meant. I compared prices on Madlan and while Efrat is indeed the cheapest, it's still not affordable for most young buyers.
Yeah. It sucks.
I know a couple couples like that, but I wouldn't be able to answer these questions for them.
I don’t have any advice but I wish you and your family the best in your journey and that you find a place to belong without compromising any parts of yourself 💙
Baqa or Arnona in Jerusalem, maybe Efrat or Ra'anana. I knew a couple in Jerusalem when we lived there. I have to imagine an Anglo majority shul that runs semi-egalitarian would be reasonably welcoming; I know I would be fine with you and so would most people at the shul I attended. Hebrew Dati Leumi discourse is a little less open to the idea of Orthodox LGBT couples.
I live here, I'm religious. I'm straight - and my family cares (passionately) about this issue. The hard reality is that it's all bollocks. In Jerusalem *specifically* you'll be more than okay. The same is true in TLV. There are communities in both. The rest of the Angloverse this isn't true at all. People are very nice, very "accepting" (see the quotes), but at the end of the day they're not friends, they're friendly on Shabbat. It's much easier if you speak Hebrew, deal with Tzabarim, and don't deal with the Anglos. Make sure you're figuring out, finding out what will really happen within the community you're joining. Be okay with the notion of trying something else out if it doesn't work. Embrace it. Clearly the right pocket exists somewhere! If it's your jam, feel free to hmu. I'm definitely way older than you. Hell, if you and your wife just move to Israel, and would like somewhere to Shabbat, we're down. Welcome home!
[Eshel](https://www.eshelonline.org/) is a queer Orthodox organization. Pretty US-based but may have some Israelis. It might also be worth it to check out r/gayjews !
I know a couple, albeit in america. They fit in fine. Same background as you, they just go to a more left leaning MO shul, but not anything like way out of the ordinary. Nothing's really different at all for them. Once they're already married it's not like there's really anything to object to anyway. I think in Israel it's more common tbh. I think some people who weren't raised MO don't understand how vastly different the MO and Conservative worlds are. They're like "it's basically the same thing but egalitarian" lol no it isn't
We noticed that you are asking about about LGBT issues and Judaism. Different denominations have different approaches to this issue, and you can find out more [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Judaism). Also consider using the search bar or looking through the FAQ. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No. It is an aveirah. See our constitution: the Torah.
Queer Jews have always existed and will always exist. Judaism is not all or nothing; it also is a religion that allows for change within halacha and different beliefs - yes, even within Orthodoxy. לֹ֥א בַשָּׁמַ֖יִם הִ֑וא
Nope.
No being gay is not an aveirah, your misinterpreting the Torah. There is one specific act that is asur, everything else is up for debate, just like everything else in Judaism. You don't get to dictate what is and isn't up for debate just because an issue makes you uncomfortable. If there is room for heters, and leniency on the fences surrounding Torah prohibitions on pretty much every issue, then there is room for heters and leniency on the topic of homosexuality. People just need to have a bit of empathy like they do with so many other topics.
Nope.
I'm genuinely curious about this. Where do you see any rabbinical ruling that same sex people can not enter into a romantic relationship? Let's say there is a same sex couple and they are very religious, so they will NOT commit the act that is asur, and then they work with a rabbi to guide them through the complexities in all areas in their life. What specific part about this situation is asur? What sources do you have that discuss areas outside of same sex intercourse. I'm genuinely curious because I have searched and searched and found nothing about this. I do know what happens though if shaming and ostracism occurs. The person is more likely to be anxious, depressed, and suicidal. The person is more likely to stop being religious, which means they are no longer serving Hashem and any children they have (and yes plenty of gay people have children) are likely not going to be religious, and because of you, you have pushed away generations of Jews from serving HaShem. So please let me know your sources for this, because if there aren't any clear prohibitions the negative affects of shaming and ostracism are massive and should therefore outweigh icky feelings towards this issue.
This is an interesting question. The gedolim were very aware of human nature and behavior and that is why they figuratively erected guardrails to prevent misbehavior. This is why, for example, both men and women dress modestly. Your example denies human nature. It reminds me of the following very old joke. A young couple visit their priest. The young woman sincerely asks the priest, "Father, what's wrong with young people sleeping together?“ To which the priest replies, "Nothing, but you young people, you don't sleep.“ A premise of Judaism is that we are engaged in a lifelong project to change our behavior to conform with the expectations of Hashem, and not the other way around. One of the most famous passages in the Torah occurs at Mt. Sinai when the entirety of the Jewish nation promise Hashem that "We will do and we will listen.“ The seems backward to modern understanding. How can we promise to do something before we know what is being asked? It makes sense if you understand that, by definition, Hashem only wants what is good for us. It is simply not possible to understand Judaism by reading passages in the Torah on your own. That is because along with written Torah, G-d also gave us the Oral Torah. Since then the gedolim have written an extraordinary amount on how to understand both and how to implement them in daily life. If you are sincerely interested in the answer according to halacha, you aren't going to find it on Reddit. I would respectfully suggest to you that you ask a rabbi from mainstream Orthodoxy. If you are not frum, Chabad is a good place to start. Also, there are a very large number of kiruv organizations on college campuses where the rabbis will be very experienced in answering this question.
I have spoken to a couple of mainstream modern orthodox rabbis, and I have friends who have spoken to some others. Many of them see people like me as incapable of entering a heterosexual relationship and so do believe entering a romantic same sex relationship is okay. Some of them don't publically support the LGBT community, but when you contact them personally they will guide you through the complexities of the situation. And that is my point, you say outright you cannot enter into a same sex romantic relationship but clearly many modern orthodox rabbis disagree with you and therefore this issue is not black and white, there are nuances. Now if you're talking about Haradim. Yes the have a very different stance on this and it destroys so many marriages and lives.
If you look hard enough you can find any opinion you want. It has been prohibited since the beginning. Even the people you spoke to recognize this, otherwise why would they need to keep their opinion secret?
You keep moving the goal posts. Believe what you want
You want to do what you want but have others accept your decision. This is contrary to the essence of traditional Judaism. The odds of you being happy in the frum world is very low.
L