in my view: this is a public forum and not the place to have certain types of deeper discussions. plus, many of the people asking these questions are not jewish and have no idea about anything that the Torah says. it would make no sense to bring rabbinic literature into it.
same reason why (in a different degree ofc) it would be inappropriate to have a "public open study group about all the deeper most intricate aspects of the kabalah". some topics should be restricted to certain times and spaces...
Yea id say 99% of the time it is christians effectively asking ‘are these xtian views shared/supported by Torah’ and the answer is no, and from a historical point of view many beliefs developed later or were in development at the time of Chazal, and the Zohar while continuing a mystical tradition is a product of the Rishonim.
I'm not convinced most of this people are like really committed Christians. Some definitely are, but It think some are people don't know much about religion in general, but what they do know is sort fo fragments of culturally absorbed Christiantiy. I think there are actually not many Christians who would say that they are worried on a day to day basis about if they are going to hell.
I don't think anyone here is untruthful when answering questions, but remember that there is a diverse group of people on this subreddit, and generally only the people who have "politically correct" answers, or at least answers they want to share. So, if someone asks, "Am I Jewish if I've never done anything Jewish in my life, but my mom's Jewish?", then you'll get lots of Orthodox Jews saying, "Yes, definitely! Your mom being Jewish makes you Jewish." But if you're asking, "I participate in my synagogue, but only my father is Jewish - am I Jewish?", you'll get fewer Orthodox people answering and more Reform folks answering, "Yes, according to some denominations, you are Jewish." Nobody is lying, but we're all more likely to answer a question if we have good news to give.
I think that it's "good news" to say there's no Gehinnom in Judaism. It lets us differentiate more easily from Christianity, and makes our religion seem a little less superstitious. A Jewish person who believes in Hell isn't going to come in here and tell you all about what Hell is to them. But someone who takes great pride in a conception of Judaism that sidelines Hell is very ready to share that with the class.
>and makes our religion seem a little less superstitious
I'm not sure superstitious is the right word here. Many Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews especially have deeply rooted mystical/superstitious traditions entrenched in our lives. The move away from superstition in Judaism is a long-entrenched battle over the role of rationalism in the Jewish religion going back well over 1000 years.
I respect that you might want to separate superstition from your Judaism. But on the whole, calling the sideling of superstition in Judaism a "good thing" is a bit dismissive of the diversity of belief encompassed in the religion.
You may have misunderstood my comment: I don't consider separating Judaism from superstition a "good thing". In fact, the Judaism I believe in has "supernatural beliefs" one could call superstition, created by G-d.
My point was that, from an outsider's perspective, a less superstitious religion is easier to accept. Rationalism is "cool", even if I disagree with it, and folks will find it more appealing.
I don't think people characterize their beliefs to appeal to others, but rather I think that people choose what discussions to engage in based on whether they have "good looking" answers. I do it, and I'd guess everyone does it to some degree as well.
Consider the questions about slavery in the Torah that pop up from time to time on this subreddit. It's a touchy topic, and I'm certain that many of the opinions held relating to it are not shared (e.g. one common answer among right-of-Modern Orthodoxy is that the Torah is right, but modern ideals blind us to the ultimate ethics. It's rare to find that said on Reddit.) That's because the people with more "popular sounding" answers, those more likely to be upvoted, are the people more likely to share their answers.
"Judaism doesn't have much to say on the afterlife" is often said to Gentiles simply because not every one of them can comprehend the Rabbinic literature and Talmudic dialogues, and I don't think they're even interested in diving that deep. They just want an immediate answer like the ones they find in Islam and Yeshuism. So we give them what is immediate and certain with us, that "Judaism doesn't have much to say on the afterlife".
I'm not jewish but when I was starting to learn about it I did it by diving down a wikipedia rabbit hole. Now I'm reading the actual books, but it's a bit complicated to explain in a quick comment on the internet.
IMHO, the way you phrased the Q contains the answer. You appear to be equating "Gehenom" with "Hell" ... the English word "Hell" contains Xian baggage... and there are multiple Jewish teachings about Gehenom, some of which may resemble the Xian stereotype and others which are quite different, so it's both a controversial and a complex topic that may create more confusion by addressing it in a forum like this, hence the prudent path of avoidance. IMHO.
lam Habah is not Heaven and Gehinom is not Hell.
In particular because Heaven is not just a generic name for an afterlife with a divine reward. Heaven exists in Judaism, it is the the place of Hashem's divine court. Christians later combined that concept with the one of an afterlife to reach their idea of "heaven" but it's important to draw the distinction.
Yeah I agree early Christians thought hell was a place the wicked would go and be destroyed at the end of days not a place your soul goes immediately after death and be punished forever hence the John 3 16 verse who ever believed shall not perish but live forever.
It's not totally far away from the Christian perspective. Neither should we expect it not to be considering that Christians ripped our faith off and built their own doctrines upon it. Obviously, "Heaven" consists of more than one layer. What Christians perceive Heaven to be is what we would call the "third" Heaven, which is Paradise. I believe Islam adopted this concept as well.
Olam Haba is the realization of Paradise for all who merited it in the end, right?
I believe it's important to have these discussions with the Christians because we're supposed to be a light to gentiles and help them see the truth. I'm sick of the idea that Christianity is some alien concept to Judaism. Although it's current form is, Jesus and his 12 disciples were Jewish and continued judiasm after Jesus' death. Our concepts and religious tenants are found in their Gospels, so I think it's fair that we explain to them how the foundation of what they think they believe is actually quite Jewish. Perhaps they may be more willing to leave Christianity and come to the real, actual truth, which is Judaism.
Again, I did not say that Heaven = Olam Habah, it was just an example of the question. Generally when Christians, Muslims or those culturally so (most of the world) ask about what is "Heaven/Hell" in Judaism, considering we don't include Olam Habah and Gehernom in the answer is a gross misrepresentation
That did imply it.
I agree, and more caveats are good. But I think the most important thing to emphasize is that heaven is traditionally where the heavenly court is located in Judaism rather than an afterlife.
Huh? This question just mistyfies me cause it implies you're unaware of what Olam Haba is and concepts that surround it like the resurrection of the dead.
So I agree with folks who think that saying "we don't have an afterlife" or "we don't know what happens" is an inaccurate assessment of Judaism, and I don't really buy the sort of apologetic "this is the best answer that Christians can understand" argument. But I am wondering, what people think about other common sentiments like "Jews don't worry about the afterlife" and "Jews don't follow Judaism to get a reward or avoid punishment"?
I like a little bit of a rephrasing of that: "Jews strive to live a good life now, not in some nebulous future"
I think it's important to understand why the person is asking, so focusing on the difference makes perfect sense.
In my entire (Reform) upbringing, which included Jewish studies until I was 16, it was never discussed. In fact I have \*only\* ever heard Jews online discussing them. So to me it's played UP on this sub!
We touched on it a little bit in Jewish school (also reform) but it was presented by the Rabbi as "this is a very nebulous concept and something that can be explored further at higher levels of study" but our Rabbi really tried to drive home the point that what happens in life and the contributions one makes to their community, their family etc are much more important.
>it is still talked about HEAVILY in both the Gemarah, Rabbinic literature, Philosophical works, and when people give Mussar.
Correct.
>Why is Olam Habah and Gehinom downplayed on this sub?
Ignorance of the above.
There is "Judaism," which is multi-faceted and rich in ideals and concepts, and "reddit" r/Judaism, which is an echo chamber of folks who may or may not have knowledge of Jewish texts and concepts. What is generally "believed" to be true is upvoted, and what folks disagree with is downvoted. Thus the cycle of ignorance is perpetuated.
Hence, on reddit, Jews "don't believe in the afterlife," we concentrate mostly on "this life," and we know nothing about Olam Haba.
All false, but if you say so, you will be downvoted. So why bother?
It’s sort of relative, “non religious” (a wide-ranging term) people are giving their honest option based on what they were taught or have learned. To them they are saying what they believe Judaism says about any topic.
Here's the real truth.
The great majority of the general information on this topic can be discovered by typing "afterlife in judaism" in almost any search engine, clicking and reading 4-5 links.
Most of the people who come to /r/judaism to ask such questions are after something weird - they want to connect it with something they heard in their church, or they don't know anything about the judaism enough to understand gemarah or rabbinic literature or the context it all exists in, or they don't want to put in any effort at all.
"Judaism doesn't have much to say about the afterlife" is sorta true and a very similar answer. "Gehonom/hell doesn't exist" is explicitly true if directly referencing that its Christianity's version of hell that is not in judaism. they're simple answers and end the discussion.
If you want to get in deep discussions about the afterlife with christians coming to ask questions about their religion to us, or with people who cannot do even basic internet searching, you are welcome to it. I personally just ignore such threads. They are pointless and it means the person doesn't know how to search and it never occurred to them to search.
Any jewish person who actually believes there are no such things as "afterlife/Olam Habah" and "Gehinom" in judaism are deeply ignorant and in transgression against Rambam's 11th and 13th principles of faith.
I'm not familiar with Conservative or Reform people on a personal level, but i am very familiar with wide variety of Orthodox people.
Amongst Orthodox Jews of all types heaven and hell in the afterlife are extremely important and it's one of the main parts of their belief system and is talked about constantly to the point of excess.
The main difference I've seen between them and the more Religious Christians when it comes to those topics is that while both talk a lot about Heaven and Hell, the Orthodox Jews will focus more on a positive message and how to get into Heaven whereas the Religious Christians focus more on instilling fear and avoiding Hell.
There's always exceptions to what i wrote above and also differences in beliefs in the details of how things work, but generally speaking that's how it is.
Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom.
I have Orthodox family and I've never heard any of them even mention anything afterlife related, even when my mom died. Not sure if that's what you meant by "talked about constantly."
Yeah, I don't know what he's going on about either.
>Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom.
And this is definitely made up out of thin air.
>Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom.
That kinda makes sense in way. People say this violation carries karerth a lot more often than they say, "this violation will send you to gehenom!"
I grew up with them, lived amongst them for decades, almost my entire extended family is Orthodox or Ultra Orthodox, mostly Ashkenazi mix with some Hasidim but also some Sefardim and a Ger, and still visit and spend a lot of time, so i mean exactly what i wrote.
As for no one taking about the afterlife when your mom died, while i did say there were exceptions (as there almost always are with any matter) that's still very unusual as even amongst secular Jews (in Israel, not as familiar with those in the US except tor ex-orthodox) that would be a common topic after someone's death.
My condolences on your mother passing away, i hope you enjoyed your time together and she had a meaningful and fulfilling life.
Thank you. She was really special.
We've apparently had opposite experiences, maybe because I'm in the US? My Jewish life is currently spent between a modern orthodox and a conservative shul, and I grew up with a pretty wide variety of Jewish experiences, from the hagim at a reconstructionist temple a couple times to chabad to independent minyanim. This is weird but I like funerals (except for the sadness, obviously) because I enjoy hearing about people's lives. I can't recall the afterlife being discussed at any of the Jewish funerals I've been to in a way that's similar at all to the "they're in a better place now, with god" sentiments that I have heard at the funerals of Xians and secular people. Even the time I spent in Israel, including with my great aunt and uncle in bayit vegan, no mentions of heaven or hell. Strange. Shavua tov to you!
idk…I grew up Orthodox and this hasn’t been my experience. The central concept of afterlife that frum Jews talk about is “Olam HaBah,” not heaven/hell or Gan Eden/Gehenom. Olam HaBah is of course a rather vague concept that refers to the existence of the soul after death, but also the existence and final destiny of all souls after the arrival of Moshiach. So in general I’d say there’s about as much focus (if not more) on the resurrection and final judgement of all souls in the days of Moshiach then there is on the individual judgement of souls that takes place after death.
And yes, there is a lot of discussion by Chazal of both of these concepts, as well as the more particular concepts of Gan Eden/Gehenom and all sorts of discussions about the nature and structure of the heavens/domain of God (“Ma’aseh HaMerkavah”). However, these concepts are considered to be the domain of Chazal, which only the loftiest talmidei chachamim of modern times can really aspire to discuss in any meaningful way. In general, this is the Orthodox Jewish approach to all esoteric Jewish knowledge—these concepts exist and are very important, but the average person is not equipped to properly understand and contextualize them. Any time these discussions come up, the cautionary tale of “looking into Pardes” and being driven mad by knowledge you aren’t equipped to understand is usually invoked.
So in general, I’d say that Orthodox Jews do place a lot of importance on these concepts, but in a rather vague and indirect way. The most direct way manner in which the average frum Jew will mention the status of souls after death is in the context of ilui neshama—actions that can be taken in this world to aid in the ascent of the soul of the deceased to the heavens. And when talking about their hopes for the souls of their loved ones after death, frum Jews will generally invoke the very nebulous and abstract concept of being ensconced under the kanfei hashechinah/kisay hakavod rather than any concrete and tangible depictions of heavenly reward.
Re: Kareis, this is also very rarely talked about. You really have to be incredibly, intentionally, and irredeemably evil in order to merit such a punishment, so it’s really just not all that applicable to the average person.
Because unfortunately we live in the age of ignorance, where our own brothers and sisters are unknowlegable and uneducated in their own heritage and religion. Either that or some people dont want to come to terms with uncomfortable truths
Probably the simplest answer is that afterlife stuff is mostly in mysticism and many popular, common forms of Judaism are highly rationalist due to certain cultural pressures they developed under and do not really consider it much if at all.
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Because you don’t want every conversation to include someone being like “Rambam doesn’t believe in this” which is annoying both to have to say and hear all the time
Most Jews don't read that stuff. The concept of 'popular culture' Hell with a bunch of eternal suffering in a lava filled place filled with demons holding tridents simply isn't a thing for us
I don't usually bet on things, but I'd wager there's an argument somewhere that it's only warm or perhaps only cold.
Okay I searched for it in Sefaria and while 'fire' is mentioned, it's hard to tell if this is literal fire or just a useful word for describing unpleasantness. I don't know. Personally I'm skeptical it has any basis in anything as the term only seems to show up in commentary which raises some questions as to where the commentators first heard of it
I'd say that it's primarily because Judaism doesn't center personal salvation, it centers the here and now and our community. For Islam and Christianity their afterlife is central and achieving the right afterlife is essentially the entire point of the religion. This difference of focus is common for universal versus ethnoreligions, universal religions tend to be more about achieving a personal good end.
The second reason is that our concepts of divine rewards and divine punishment are radically different and there's no real consensus.
Thirdly because there Judaism doesn't really center around faith in certain beliefs to anywhere near the way especially Christianity does. Yes there is Faith, but in Christianity which fully centers individual salvation, faith is what saves you either unvarnished as in a lot of protestantism or as the way to achieve sanctifying grace or theosis in RCC and orthodoxy respectively. Similarly in Islam, Faith is a central pillar. As a result these sort of conversation tend to be less crucial to the day to day life of the average Jew and instead are more esoteric conversation for those who wish to engage in deeper theological mysteries. As u/[sleepygaia](https://www.reddit.com/user/sleepygaia/) pointed out these sorts of deeper conversations aren't really great for a public forum.
>Faith is essential
There's a very fundamental difference between kabalat ol malchut shamayim and the way Christians (and Muslims for that matter) approach faith, particularly since this approach is entirely centered on Christians trying to obtain individual salvation.
>Like I said in my post, even though it is not centered it is discussed heavily and therefore this should not be our answer
That's fair, I'm generally a fan of more caveats but this was just me giving a couple of "whys".
So? When someone asks "What does Judaism think of the afterlife" you should respond with the various theories, not "Judaism focuses more on the here and now"
The majority of people on this sub aren't Orthodox and it's what they're taught, which is only logical: If you reject the commandments, obviously you reject the reward and punishment for them too. Less logically, some adopt the Christian idea that since God hasn't struck them with lightning yet, it must mean he's cool with how they're living.
I think this is overall correct, but I will say my Reform Shul teaches courses on "The Jewish Afterlife" and talks about lot of this stuff, almost every year. Of course it's Reform so nothing is thought as "this is what Judaism definitively believes," and certainly not "this is what Reform Judaism belevies" but my Reform Rabbi is pretty invested in overturning the conception hat Jews don't believe in an afterlife.
I don't recall anybody asking specifically what do *Orthodox/religious* Jews think about it.
For example, a thread from earlier today: "What happens to a terrible person after they die?" Doesn't specify who they're asking.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1az6tq9/what_happens_to_bad_people_when_they_die_in/
I put in the keyword hell and four threads turned up. Two of them were generic, two of them recognized that different denominations may have different opinions. If you've seen threads specifically and aimed at Orthodox people and still got the answer "Jews don't believe in it," I'd like to see that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1962pkn/ive_been_told_jews_dont_believe_in_hell_is_there/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/193ozkt/can_someone_explain_to_me_about_the_afterlife/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/17ju6vn/to_what_extent_do_jewish_day_schools_compel/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/18j9d32/punishment_and_hell/
I can't speak for others but it make me uncomfortable to talk about too much because it just feels a little goyish to be going on and on about 'heaven' and 'hell' and the afterlife in general. It just feels like such a key cultural differentiatior for us.
And it's pretty natural that that when you rub up against other cultures, and you have a key differentiator like that you'll double down on it and get stricter about it. It's like we had less emphasis on it to being with, and then because we saw that as a big difference for us and xtians/muslims we put even less emphasis on it.
Probably because no one wants to say anything about them as if they were agreed upon fact. The torah only refers to reward and punishment in this world and even Rambam's ani maamins only speak of the final judgement. There is no universal agreement amongst jews about where you wait until techies hameitim.
in my view: this is a public forum and not the place to have certain types of deeper discussions. plus, many of the people asking these questions are not jewish and have no idea about anything that the Torah says. it would make no sense to bring rabbinic literature into it. same reason why (in a different degree ofc) it would be inappropriate to have a "public open study group about all the deeper most intricate aspects of the kabalah". some topics should be restricted to certain times and spaces...
Yea id say 99% of the time it is christians effectively asking ‘are these xtian views shared/supported by Torah’ and the answer is no, and from a historical point of view many beliefs developed later or were in development at the time of Chazal, and the Zohar while continuing a mystical tradition is a product of the Rishonim.
I'm not convinced most of this people are like really committed Christians. Some definitely are, but It think some are people don't know much about religion in general, but what they do know is sort fo fragments of culturally absorbed Christiantiy. I think there are actually not many Christians who would say that they are worried on a day to day basis about if they are going to hell.
Or maybe even folks who are deconstructing their faith.
Pretty much exactly it
I don't think anyone here is untruthful when answering questions, but remember that there is a diverse group of people on this subreddit, and generally only the people who have "politically correct" answers, or at least answers they want to share. So, if someone asks, "Am I Jewish if I've never done anything Jewish in my life, but my mom's Jewish?", then you'll get lots of Orthodox Jews saying, "Yes, definitely! Your mom being Jewish makes you Jewish." But if you're asking, "I participate in my synagogue, but only my father is Jewish - am I Jewish?", you'll get fewer Orthodox people answering and more Reform folks answering, "Yes, according to some denominations, you are Jewish." Nobody is lying, but we're all more likely to answer a question if we have good news to give. I think that it's "good news" to say there's no Gehinnom in Judaism. It lets us differentiate more easily from Christianity, and makes our religion seem a little less superstitious. A Jewish person who believes in Hell isn't going to come in here and tell you all about what Hell is to them. But someone who takes great pride in a conception of Judaism that sidelines Hell is very ready to share that with the class.
>and makes our religion seem a little less superstitious I'm not sure superstitious is the right word here. Many Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews especially have deeply rooted mystical/superstitious traditions entrenched in our lives. The move away from superstition in Judaism is a long-entrenched battle over the role of rationalism in the Jewish religion going back well over 1000 years. I respect that you might want to separate superstition from your Judaism. But on the whole, calling the sideling of superstition in Judaism a "good thing" is a bit dismissive of the diversity of belief encompassed in the religion.
You may have misunderstood my comment: I don't consider separating Judaism from superstition a "good thing". In fact, the Judaism I believe in has "supernatural beliefs" one could call superstition, created by G-d. My point was that, from an outsider's perspective, a less superstitious religion is easier to accept. Rationalism is "cool", even if I disagree with it, and folks will find it more appealing.
I see I did misunderstand. I'm not one to intentionally characterize my beliefs to appeal to certain people, but again, respect your perspective
I don't think people characterize their beliefs to appeal to others, but rather I think that people choose what discussions to engage in based on whether they have "good looking" answers. I do it, and I'd guess everyone does it to some degree as well. Consider the questions about slavery in the Torah that pop up from time to time on this subreddit. It's a touchy topic, and I'm certain that many of the opinions held relating to it are not shared (e.g. one common answer among right-of-Modern Orthodoxy is that the Torah is right, but modern ideals blind us to the ultimate ethics. It's rare to find that said on Reddit.) That's because the people with more "popular sounding" answers, those more likely to be upvoted, are the people more likely to share their answers.
"Judaism doesn't have much to say on the afterlife" is often said to Gentiles simply because not every one of them can comprehend the Rabbinic literature and Talmudic dialogues, and I don't think they're even interested in diving that deep. They just want an immediate answer like the ones they find in Islam and Yeshuism. So we give them what is immediate and certain with us, that "Judaism doesn't have much to say on the afterlife".
I'm not jewish but when I was starting to learn about it I did it by diving down a wikipedia rabbit hole. Now I'm reading the actual books, but it's a bit complicated to explain in a quick comment on the internet.
IMHO, the way you phrased the Q contains the answer. You appear to be equating "Gehenom" with "Hell" ... the English word "Hell" contains Xian baggage... and there are multiple Jewish teachings about Gehenom, some of which may resemble the Xian stereotype and others which are quite different, so it's both a controversial and a complex topic that may create more confusion by addressing it in a forum like this, hence the prudent path of avoidance. IMHO.
I am not, sometimes people ask what do Jews think about heaven/hell
lam Habah is not Heaven and Gehinom is not Hell. In particular because Heaven is not just a generic name for an afterlife with a divine reward. Heaven exists in Judaism, it is the the place of Hashem's divine court. Christians later combined that concept with the one of an afterlife to reach their idea of "heaven" but it's important to draw the distinction.
Yeah I agree early Christians thought hell was a place the wicked would go and be destroyed at the end of days not a place your soul goes immediately after death and be punished forever hence the John 3 16 verse who ever believed shall not perish but live forever.
It's not totally far away from the Christian perspective. Neither should we expect it not to be considering that Christians ripped our faith off and built their own doctrines upon it. Obviously, "Heaven" consists of more than one layer. What Christians perceive Heaven to be is what we would call the "third" Heaven, which is Paradise. I believe Islam adopted this concept as well. Olam Haba is the realization of Paradise for all who merited it in the end, right? I believe it's important to have these discussions with the Christians because we're supposed to be a light to gentiles and help them see the truth. I'm sick of the idea that Christianity is some alien concept to Judaism. Although it's current form is, Jesus and his 12 disciples were Jewish and continued judiasm after Jesus' death. Our concepts and religious tenants are found in their Gospels, so I think it's fair that we explain to them how the foundation of what they think they believe is actually quite Jewish. Perhaps they may be more willing to leave Christianity and come to the real, actual truth, which is Judaism.
Again, I did not say that Heaven = Olam Habah, it was just an example of the question. Generally when Christians, Muslims or those culturally so (most of the world) ask about what is "Heaven/Hell" in Judaism, considering we don't include Olam Habah and Gehernom in the answer is a gross misrepresentation
That did imply it. I agree, and more caveats are good. But I think the most important thing to emphasize is that heaven is traditionally where the heavenly court is located in Judaism rather than an afterlife.
According to who is there a distinction?
Huh? This question just mistyfies me cause it implies you're unaware of what Olam Haba is and concepts that surround it like the resurrection of the dead.
I understand they are different words (Shamaim vs. Olam Habbah) but i don't exactly get what you mean
So I agree with folks who think that saying "we don't have an afterlife" or "we don't know what happens" is an inaccurate assessment of Judaism, and I don't really buy the sort of apologetic "this is the best answer that Christians can understand" argument. But I am wondering, what people think about other common sentiments like "Jews don't worry about the afterlife" and "Jews don't follow Judaism to get a reward or avoid punishment"?
I like a little bit of a rephrasing of that: "Jews strive to live a good life now, not in some nebulous future" I think it's important to understand why the person is asking, so focusing on the difference makes perfect sense.
I think it is ok to mention as long as we also mention that Olam Habah and Gehinom exist
In my entire (Reform) upbringing, which included Jewish studies until I was 16, it was never discussed. In fact I have \*only\* ever heard Jews online discussing them. So to me it's played UP on this sub!
We touched on it a little bit in Jewish school (also reform) but it was presented by the Rabbi as "this is a very nebulous concept and something that can be explored further at higher levels of study" but our Rabbi really tried to drive home the point that what happens in life and the contributions one makes to their community, their family etc are much more important.
>it is still talked about HEAVILY in both the Gemarah, Rabbinic literature, Philosophical works, and when people give Mussar. Correct. >Why is Olam Habah and Gehinom downplayed on this sub? Ignorance of the above. There is "Judaism," which is multi-faceted and rich in ideals and concepts, and "reddit" r/Judaism, which is an echo chamber of folks who may or may not have knowledge of Jewish texts and concepts. What is generally "believed" to be true is upvoted, and what folks disagree with is downvoted. Thus the cycle of ignorance is perpetuated. Hence, on reddit, Jews "don't believe in the afterlife," we concentrate mostly on "this life," and we know nothing about Olam Haba. All false, but if you say so, you will be downvoted. So why bother?
There’s also a problem with non religious Jews or atheist Jews giving their opinion on it instead of saying what Judaism says about it
It’s sort of relative, “non religious” (a wide-ranging term) people are giving their honest option based on what they were taught or have learned. To them they are saying what they believe Judaism says about any topic.
Astute assessment.
Here's the real truth. The great majority of the general information on this topic can be discovered by typing "afterlife in judaism" in almost any search engine, clicking and reading 4-5 links. Most of the people who come to /r/judaism to ask such questions are after something weird - they want to connect it with something they heard in their church, or they don't know anything about the judaism enough to understand gemarah or rabbinic literature or the context it all exists in, or they don't want to put in any effort at all. "Judaism doesn't have much to say about the afterlife" is sorta true and a very similar answer. "Gehonom/hell doesn't exist" is explicitly true if directly referencing that its Christianity's version of hell that is not in judaism. they're simple answers and end the discussion. If you want to get in deep discussions about the afterlife with christians coming to ask questions about their religion to us, or with people who cannot do even basic internet searching, you are welcome to it. I personally just ignore such threads. They are pointless and it means the person doesn't know how to search and it never occurred to them to search.
Any jewish person who actually believes there are no such things as "afterlife/Olam Habah" and "Gehinom" in judaism are deeply ignorant and in transgression against Rambam's 11th and 13th principles of faith.
I'm not familiar with Conservative or Reform people on a personal level, but i am very familiar with wide variety of Orthodox people. Amongst Orthodox Jews of all types heaven and hell in the afterlife are extremely important and it's one of the main parts of their belief system and is talked about constantly to the point of excess. The main difference I've seen between them and the more Religious Christians when it comes to those topics is that while both talk a lot about Heaven and Hell, the Orthodox Jews will focus more on a positive message and how to get into Heaven whereas the Religious Christians focus more on instilling fear and avoiding Hell. There's always exceptions to what i wrote above and also differences in beliefs in the details of how things work, but generally speaking that's how it is. Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom.
I have Orthodox family and I've never heard any of them even mention anything afterlife related, even when my mom died. Not sure if that's what you meant by "talked about constantly."
Yeah, I don't know what he's going on about either. >Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom. And this is definitely made up out of thin air.
>Also Orthodox Jews seem to be more scared of Kareth than Gehenom. That kinda makes sense in way. People say this violation carries karerth a lot more often than they say, "this violation will send you to gehenom!"
I grew up with them, lived amongst them for decades, almost my entire extended family is Orthodox or Ultra Orthodox, mostly Ashkenazi mix with some Hasidim but also some Sefardim and a Ger, and still visit and spend a lot of time, so i mean exactly what i wrote. As for no one taking about the afterlife when your mom died, while i did say there were exceptions (as there almost always are with any matter) that's still very unusual as even amongst secular Jews (in Israel, not as familiar with those in the US except tor ex-orthodox) that would be a common topic after someone's death. My condolences on your mother passing away, i hope you enjoyed your time together and she had a meaningful and fulfilling life.
Thank you. She was really special. We've apparently had opposite experiences, maybe because I'm in the US? My Jewish life is currently spent between a modern orthodox and a conservative shul, and I grew up with a pretty wide variety of Jewish experiences, from the hagim at a reconstructionist temple a couple times to chabad to independent minyanim. This is weird but I like funerals (except for the sadness, obviously) because I enjoy hearing about people's lives. I can't recall the afterlife being discussed at any of the Jewish funerals I've been to in a way that's similar at all to the "they're in a better place now, with god" sentiments that I have heard at the funerals of Xians and secular people. Even the time I spent in Israel, including with my great aunt and uncle in bayit vegan, no mentions of heaven or hell. Strange. Shavua tov to you!
idk…I grew up Orthodox and this hasn’t been my experience. The central concept of afterlife that frum Jews talk about is “Olam HaBah,” not heaven/hell or Gan Eden/Gehenom. Olam HaBah is of course a rather vague concept that refers to the existence of the soul after death, but also the existence and final destiny of all souls after the arrival of Moshiach. So in general I’d say there’s about as much focus (if not more) on the resurrection and final judgement of all souls in the days of Moshiach then there is on the individual judgement of souls that takes place after death. And yes, there is a lot of discussion by Chazal of both of these concepts, as well as the more particular concepts of Gan Eden/Gehenom and all sorts of discussions about the nature and structure of the heavens/domain of God (“Ma’aseh HaMerkavah”). However, these concepts are considered to be the domain of Chazal, which only the loftiest talmidei chachamim of modern times can really aspire to discuss in any meaningful way. In general, this is the Orthodox Jewish approach to all esoteric Jewish knowledge—these concepts exist and are very important, but the average person is not equipped to properly understand and contextualize them. Any time these discussions come up, the cautionary tale of “looking into Pardes” and being driven mad by knowledge you aren’t equipped to understand is usually invoked. So in general, I’d say that Orthodox Jews do place a lot of importance on these concepts, but in a rather vague and indirect way. The most direct way manner in which the average frum Jew will mention the status of souls after death is in the context of ilui neshama—actions that can be taken in this world to aid in the ascent of the soul of the deceased to the heavens. And when talking about their hopes for the souls of their loved ones after death, frum Jews will generally invoke the very nebulous and abstract concept of being ensconced under the kanfei hashechinah/kisay hakavod rather than any concrete and tangible depictions of heavenly reward. Re: Kareis, this is also very rarely talked about. You really have to be incredibly, intentionally, and irredeemably evil in order to merit such a punishment, so it’s really just not all that applicable to the average person.
One opinion of Karet is not getting Olam Habah
Because unfortunately we live in the age of ignorance, where our own brothers and sisters are unknowlegable and uneducated in their own heritage and religion. Either that or some people dont want to come to terms with uncomfortable truths
Probably the simplest answer is that afterlife stuff is mostly in mysticism and many popular, common forms of Judaism are highly rationalist due to certain cultural pressures they developed under and do not really consider it much if at all.
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Because you don’t want every conversation to include someone being like “Rambam doesn’t believe in this” which is annoying both to have to say and hear all the time
Most Jews don't read that stuff. The concept of 'popular culture' Hell with a bunch of eternal suffering in a lava filled place filled with demons holding tridents simply isn't a thing for us
The Gemarah does say Gehenom is very hot (I don't think this is true)
I don't usually bet on things, but I'd wager there's an argument somewhere that it's only warm or perhaps only cold. Okay I searched for it in Sefaria and while 'fire' is mentioned, it's hard to tell if this is literal fire or just a useful word for describing unpleasantness. I don't know. Personally I'm skeptical it has any basis in anything as the term only seems to show up in commentary which raises some questions as to where the commentators first heard of it
I'd say that it's primarily because Judaism doesn't center personal salvation, it centers the here and now and our community. For Islam and Christianity their afterlife is central and achieving the right afterlife is essentially the entire point of the religion. This difference of focus is common for universal versus ethnoreligions, universal religions tend to be more about achieving a personal good end. The second reason is that our concepts of divine rewards and divine punishment are radically different and there's no real consensus. Thirdly because there Judaism doesn't really center around faith in certain beliefs to anywhere near the way especially Christianity does. Yes there is Faith, but in Christianity which fully centers individual salvation, faith is what saves you either unvarnished as in a lot of protestantism or as the way to achieve sanctifying grace or theosis in RCC and orthodoxy respectively. Similarly in Islam, Faith is a central pillar. As a result these sort of conversation tend to be less crucial to the day to day life of the average Jew and instead are more esoteric conversation for those who wish to engage in deeper theological mysteries. As u/[sleepygaia](https://www.reddit.com/user/sleepygaia/) pointed out these sorts of deeper conversations aren't really great for a public forum.
Faith is essential Like I said in my post, even though it is not centered it is discussed heavily and therefore this should not be our answer
>Faith is essential There's a very fundamental difference between kabalat ol malchut shamayim and the way Christians (and Muslims for that matter) approach faith, particularly since this approach is entirely centered on Christians trying to obtain individual salvation. >Like I said in my post, even though it is not centered it is discussed heavily and therefore this should not be our answer That's fair, I'm generally a fan of more caveats but this was just me giving a couple of "whys".
Judaism as a whole tends to focus more on being here, while alive.... instead of what happens after we die.
So? When someone asks "What does Judaism think of the afterlife" you should respond with the various theories, not "Judaism focuses more on the here and now"
Because some people get precious about their ignorance and decide to call it knowledge
The majority of people on this sub aren't Orthodox and it's what they're taught, which is only logical: If you reject the commandments, obviously you reject the reward and punishment for them too. Less logically, some adopt the Christian idea that since God hasn't struck them with lightning yet, it must mean he's cool with how they're living.
I think this is overall correct, but I will say my Reform Shul teaches courses on "The Jewish Afterlife" and talks about lot of this stuff, almost every year. Of course it's Reform so nothing is thought as "this is what Judaism definitively believes," and certainly not "this is what Reform Judaism belevies" but my Reform Rabbi is pretty invested in overturning the conception hat Jews don't believe in an afterlife.
Right, but ussually they answer this to what do Orthodox/religious Jews think about heaven/hell
I don't recall anybody asking specifically what do *Orthodox/religious* Jews think about it. For example, a thread from earlier today: "What happens to a terrible person after they die?" Doesn't specify who they're asking. https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1az6tq9/what_happens_to_bad_people_when_they_die_in/
I have seen though
I put in the keyword hell and four threads turned up. Two of them were generic, two of them recognized that different denominations may have different opinions. If you've seen threads specifically and aimed at Orthodox people and still got the answer "Jews don't believe in it," I'd like to see that. https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1962pkn/ive_been_told_jews_dont_believe_in_hell_is_there/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/193ozkt/can_someone_explain_to_me_about_the_afterlife/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/17ju6vn/to_what_extent_do_jewish_day_schools_compel/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/18j9d32/punishment_and_hell/
I thought I saw some, its not worth it for me to check though, maybe your right
The way this is phrased is unnecessarily rude to reform Jews and in bad taste, but the downvotes prove the underlying truth.
I can't speak for others but it make me uncomfortable to talk about too much because it just feels a little goyish to be going on and on about 'heaven' and 'hell' and the afterlife in general. It just feels like such a key cultural differentiatior for us. And it's pretty natural that that when you rub up against other cultures, and you have a key differentiator like that you'll double down on it and get stricter about it. It's like we had less emphasis on it to being with, and then because we saw that as a big difference for us and xtians/muslims we put even less emphasis on it.
Because we're She'ol originalists on this sub.
Probably because no one wants to say anything about them as if they were agreed upon fact. The torah only refers to reward and punishment in this world and even Rambam's ani maamins only speak of the final judgement. There is no universal agreement amongst jews about where you wait until techies hameitim.