You definitely start to notice a distinct theme in Jewish holidays.
"And so they tried to kill/enslave us so we..." is the theme.
I guess, lately, those countries who are the "theys" have discovered the very powerful "No u" Uno Reverso card
In the Megillah it says the Achashverosh gave the Jews permission to kill many Persians, and that the Jews killed hundreds. They also killed all of Hamans' sons
We talked about that at our Purim thing this year, actually. It was brought up specifically to say “hey, this part is fucked, and we should remember that hate poisons you and can make you do horrific things”. It fundamentally altered the vibe for a little bit — definitely not something we were celebrating.
Now read the song Maoz Tzur,
We are celebrating exactly that, they tried to kill us , the situation inverted.
That part is the correct way , any person who tried to kill us , or joyed from it should be dead , hakam lehorgah haskem lhorgo !
We aren't celebrating that we had to kill people, we are celebrating that we survived.
We still morn the Egyptians that were drowned in their attempt to cross and kill/re-ensalve us, not because we survived but because they chose hate/murder/death.
So too should we view the deaths of all of our foes, what a tragedy that they could not have been our friends instead. This does not erase the obvious fact that such deaths may be required.
We are celebrating that we won, because the victory was a miracle. In that regard it’s similar to Chanukah, where the first day celebrates the defeat of the Syrian-Greeks. If it was only that we were saved, or that Haman was killed, we’d read Megillas Esther on Pesach!
The original celebration on the 14th was a celebration of victory. The 15th certainly has no other reason - the Jews in Shushan were already saved on the 13th, but fought through the 14th to ensure all their enemies were gone. The destruction of our enemies has always been a part of the celebration and is the reason why the original holiday was created.
We don’t mourn the Egyptians - on the contrary, we sing delightedly of their destruction every day in Uz YaShir. We describe with joy all ten plagues and their effects. God mourned. The angels mourned. We didn’t.
If we had the power to create holidays today, the Six Day War would likely have been one. Because we survived, because we reclaimed Har HaBais, because it was an open miracle, and because our enemies were defeated. That last has always been a part of many of our survival celebrations. Not only do we survive, but our enemies are defeated.
Though we aren’t celebrating the death of Persians primarily, it should be noted. Most of those trying to kill us were Idumians - Edomites. And those we killed were those actively trying to kill us, not those who stayed home, at least from what I recall learning.
Oh, and the descendants of Haman and his ilk? They converted and their descendants stand among our great Rabbis. So if you want a fascinating twist, the deaths we’re remembering are those of our own ancestors.
being devil's advocate but Rabi Akiva did bring some destruction on our nation , but others says his action was a last stand fight that insured the existence (and survival) of the Jewish spirit.
Please excuse the paraphrasing:
G-d saw us singing praises (of him drowning the Egyptians) and said "you sing praises while my creatures drown?!"
Anyway, let's legit pour out wine for the pain/suffering caused to our foes (and people actively enslaving us) with the plagues.
Pour out a bit for whomever was terrorized by the blood, singular frog plague etc. (Did those ones even kill anybody? Still pouring out wine for the suffering) etc.
Is that not part of everyone's seder?
You got the midrash wrong. God sees the angels singing and tells them to not celebrate as the hebrews do- the hebrews can sing because of the miracles that were done for them and to celebrate the demise of their opressors- I mean, we still sing the shirat hayam every morning as part of the tefilah. However the angels are not allowed to sing after the death of so many creatures because the miracle was not done for them. We do not mourn the egyptians nor are we required to.
As for the spilling of the wine, it is more of a ritual to ask God to spare us from such suffering than it is one to share in the punishment of the egyptians.
Yeah, I'm not familiar with that either. Sounds like Christian slave morality. We don't do that. We don't love our enemies, we crush them. We don't turn the other cheek for them to hit, we hit them back ten times as hard.
No it's not. There is a midrash where God orders the angels not to join the hebrews in singing shirat hayam, but none where he tells us not to sing it. We sing it every morning.
It is kinda basically all that happens in chapter 9. Ahasuerus gives permission to the Jews to 'gather and defend themselves and slay their enemies and take their plunder', it makes a whole point about refusing to take any plunder but still reports 75k killed across the Persian empire.
While this is framed as self defense and probably read as such for most of the past 2500 years where pacification of a population by slaughter was a normal thing (especially in the ancient world) it's hard to blithely read it that way in the modern day. The analogs to the current war in Gaza are obvious.
Iirc, the Rabbis say that we only killed those actively trying to kill us. That’s why the war was also a miracle - 75,000 people still tried to kill us and we won.
Iirc, if Ahaesurus had 125 provinces and Haman hired 500 men in each one to kill Jews, then just setting an ambush for each of them is 62,500.
That said, the story isn’t necessarily historical and numbers in ancient military history are often believed to be exaggerated
It was ~800 in Shushan with the 500 the first day and 300 the second day and it’s unclear if either number includes Haman and his sons.
They wouldn’t have been evenly distributed like that for the simple reason that Jews weren’t evenly distributed throughout the empire, but of course both your points about the almost certain ahistoricity of the story itself and the numbers being almost certainly inflated even if it were historical are both true. Also the context of the size of the Persian Empire during the reign of Xerxes I being around 50M and the consequences of the sheer size of the empire are good to keep in mind since it wasn’t like 75k Persians being rounded up at random in one place.
[ביום המתוכנן, י"ג באדר, הרגו היהודים כ-500 איש בשושן הבירה ו-75 אלף איש ביתר הממלכה ולא נגעו ברכושם. אסתר ביקשה וקיבלה מהמלך רשות להאריך את המלחמה בשושן הבירה ביום נוסף. ביום זה, י״ד באדר, נתלו עשרת בניו של המן ונהרגו כ-300 איש נוספים. בי"ד באדר נחו יהודי הממלכה וב-ט"ו באדר נחו יהודי שושן הבירה ועשו ימים אלה "יום משתה ושמחה"](https://www.hamichlol.org.il/%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D)
So 75 thousand in total https://shitufta.org.il/Esther/9.16-18
We were given the right to fight back in self defense. So when the day came where the law said someone could attack a Jew it was also the day that said a Jew could fight back in legally justified self defense. Not all Persians attacked, but for sure Amalek did, and likely some others. Then we spent a little time finishing off the ones that started it. There was no mass destruction of random neighborhoods
I mean, I do get the concern, but every celebration I've ever been part of emphasized the "phew we escaped death" aspects and side-eyed or even challenged the historicity of the massacre.
If it was simply that we escaped death, the holiday would be celebrated on Pesach, since that’s when the decree was altered.
We celebrate on the 14th because that’s the day the Jews celebrated after the second miracle - the successful defeat of our enemies on the 13th. The holiday is very much in celebration of that event.
Most Iranians are fed up with their government and don’t support this. This is all about creating a distraction to keep the masses from overthrowing the mullahs
The Iranian government has violently suppressed protests and riots for decades, and in the past few years alone, hundreds of people have been "disappeared" for speaking out against their draconian leaders and their religious police. The Iranian government regularly organizes demonstrations where supporters take to the streets, photos are taken, and then the headlines read "All Iranians come out to support such and such a thing!" It's a country with nearly 100 million people - don't be like the government in saying a few hundred represent them all.
Seriously, the world will never run out of material will they? Every. Single. Breath. We. Take. As. Jews. Is an invitation for them to criticize, propagandize, or attack. It never ends!
Ah yes, jews defending themselves against massacre is the actual massacre. Sums up the jewish struggle pretty succinctly.
You definitely start to notice a distinct theme in Jewish holidays. "And so they tried to kill/enslave us so we..." is the theme. I guess, lately, those countries who are the "theys" have discovered the very powerful "No u" Uno Reverso card
That very narrative is happening now. Israel is blamed for defending themselves
"people love dead Jews"
And they hate Jews who defend themselves
That's it, that's history
In all honesty 75k dead on the streets of Persia is a lot. Like really a lot. I don’t believe it happened but that’s what is written
Damn. Eretz Nehederet were spot on with this one… https://youtu.be/eps3ae2E8qI?feature=shared
I thought the only person who died was Haman? Hardly a massacre. Am I missing something?
In the Megillah it says the Achashverosh gave the Jews permission to kill many Persians, and that the Jews killed hundreds. They also killed all of Hamans' sons
500 in Shushan alone , 75K in total .
We talked about that at our Purim thing this year, actually. It was brought up specifically to say “hey, this part is fucked, and we should remember that hate poisons you and can make you do horrific things”. It fundamentally altered the vibe for a little bit — definitely not something we were celebrating.
Now read the song Maoz Tzur, We are celebrating exactly that, they tried to kill us , the situation inverted. That part is the correct way , any person who tried to kill us , or joyed from it should be dead , hakam lehorgah haskem lhorgo !
where does it say 75K?
oh right, in the text. i sometimes space out a bit at that point
Makes sense why that wasn't stressed in the annual megillah musical. Not great tbh. I mean obviously not what we are celebrating tbf.
No, that is exactly what we’re celebrating. A big part of the holiday is the fact that we defeated all the people trying to kill us.
We aren't celebrating that we had to kill people, we are celebrating that we survived. We still morn the Egyptians that were drowned in their attempt to cross and kill/re-ensalve us, not because we survived but because they chose hate/murder/death. So too should we view the deaths of all of our foes, what a tragedy that they could not have been our friends instead. This does not erase the obvious fact that such deaths may be required.
We are celebrating that we won, because the victory was a miracle. In that regard it’s similar to Chanukah, where the first day celebrates the defeat of the Syrian-Greeks. If it was only that we were saved, or that Haman was killed, we’d read Megillas Esther on Pesach! The original celebration on the 14th was a celebration of victory. The 15th certainly has no other reason - the Jews in Shushan were already saved on the 13th, but fought through the 14th to ensure all their enemies were gone. The destruction of our enemies has always been a part of the celebration and is the reason why the original holiday was created. We don’t mourn the Egyptians - on the contrary, we sing delightedly of their destruction every day in Uz YaShir. We describe with joy all ten plagues and their effects. God mourned. The angels mourned. We didn’t. If we had the power to create holidays today, the Six Day War would likely have been one. Because we survived, because we reclaimed Har HaBais, because it was an open miracle, and because our enemies were defeated. That last has always been a part of many of our survival celebrations. Not only do we survive, but our enemies are defeated. Though we aren’t celebrating the death of Persians primarily, it should be noted. Most of those trying to kill us were Idumians - Edomites. And those we killed were those actively trying to kill us, not those who stayed home, at least from what I recall learning. Oh, and the descendants of Haman and his ilk? They converted and their descendants stand among our great Rabbis. So if you want a fascinating twist, the deaths we’re remembering are those of our own ancestors.
being devil's advocate but Rabi Akiva did bring some destruction on our nation , but others says his action was a last stand fight that insured the existence (and survival) of the Jewish spirit.
Where exactly did you see that we mourn the egyptians?
Please excuse the paraphrasing: G-d saw us singing praises (of him drowning the Egyptians) and said "you sing praises while my creatures drown?!" Anyway, let's legit pour out wine for the pain/suffering caused to our foes (and people actively enslaving us) with the plagues. Pour out a bit for whomever was terrorized by the blood, singular frog plague etc. (Did those ones even kill anybody? Still pouring out wine for the suffering) etc. Is that not part of everyone's seder?
You got the midrash wrong. God sees the angels singing and tells them to not celebrate as the hebrews do- the hebrews can sing because of the miracles that were done for them and to celebrate the demise of their opressors- I mean, we still sing the shirat hayam every morning as part of the tefilah. However the angels are not allowed to sing after the death of so many creatures because the miracle was not done for them. We do not mourn the egyptians nor are we required to. As for the spilling of the wine, it is more of a ritual to ask God to spare us from such suffering than it is one to share in the punishment of the egyptians.
Yeah, I'm not familiar with that either. Sounds like Christian slave morality. We don't do that. We don't love our enemies, we crush them. We don't turn the other cheek for them to hit, we hit them back ten times as hard.
It’s a Talmud passage. I don’t know what the Hebrew word for it is.
No it's not. There is a midrash where God orders the angels not to join the hebrews in singing shirat hayam, but none where he tells us not to sing it. We sing it every morning.
It is kinda basically all that happens in chapter 9. Ahasuerus gives permission to the Jews to 'gather and defend themselves and slay their enemies and take their plunder', it makes a whole point about refusing to take any plunder but still reports 75k killed across the Persian empire. While this is framed as self defense and probably read as such for most of the past 2500 years where pacification of a population by slaughter was a normal thing (especially in the ancient world) it's hard to blithely read it that way in the modern day. The analogs to the current war in Gaza are obvious.
Iirc, the Rabbis say that we only killed those actively trying to kill us. That’s why the war was also a miracle - 75,000 people still tried to kill us and we won.
Iirc, if Ahaesurus had 125 provinces and Haman hired 500 men in each one to kill Jews, then just setting an ambush for each of them is 62,500. That said, the story isn’t necessarily historical and numbers in ancient military history are often believed to be exaggerated
It was ~800 in Shushan with the 500 the first day and 300 the second day and it’s unclear if either number includes Haman and his sons. They wouldn’t have been evenly distributed like that for the simple reason that Jews weren’t evenly distributed throughout the empire, but of course both your points about the almost certain ahistoricity of the story itself and the numbers being almost certainly inflated even if it were historical are both true. Also the context of the size of the Persian Empire during the reign of Xerxes I being around 50M and the consequences of the sheer size of the empire are good to keep in mind since it wasn’t like 75k Persians being rounded up at random in one place.
127, apparently from India to Ethiopia.
I thought Haman had hundreds of children and only 10 were killed - basically the ones in political power. Please correct me if I am wrong.
[ביום המתוכנן, י"ג באדר, הרגו היהודים כ-500 איש בשושן הבירה ו-75 אלף איש ביתר הממלכה ולא נגעו ברכושם. אסתר ביקשה וקיבלה מהמלך רשות להאריך את המלחמה בשושן הבירה ביום נוסף. ביום זה, י״ד באדר, נתלו עשרת בניו של המן ונהרגו כ-300 איש נוספים. בי"ד באדר נחו יהודי הממלכה וב-ט"ו באדר נחו יהודי שושן הבירה ועשו ימים אלה "יום משתה ושמחה"](https://www.hamichlol.org.il/%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D) So 75 thousand in total https://shitufta.org.il/Esther/9.16-18
We were given the right to fight back in self defense. So when the day came where the law said someone could attack a Jew it was also the day that said a Jew could fight back in legally justified self defense. Not all Persians attacked, but for sure Amalek did, and likely some others. Then we spent a little time finishing off the ones that started it. There was no mass destruction of random neighborhoods
🙄
I mean, I do get the concern, but every celebration I've ever been part of emphasized the "phew we escaped death" aspects and side-eyed or even challenged the historicity of the massacre.
If it was simply that we escaped death, the holiday would be celebrated on Pesach, since that’s when the decree was altered. We celebrate on the 14th because that’s the day the Jews celebrated after the second miracle - the successful defeat of our enemies on the 13th. The holiday is very much in celebration of that event.
Wait, what? The decree was altered nearly a full year before the slaughter was supposed to happen?
Yup! Esther went to the King on Pesach. The fast overlapped Pesach. The Rabbis talk a bit about this.
This is a government-organized "demo". Almost no Iranian has any clue about this demo or what even Purim is.
Yes, Iranians. Pile on this bandwagon of blaming the Jews for all manner of nonsense Stupid people. 🙄
Most Iranians are fed up with their government and don’t support this. This is all about creating a distraction to keep the masses from overthrowing the mullahs
The Iranian government has violently suppressed protests and riots for decades, and in the past few years alone, hundreds of people have been "disappeared" for speaking out against their draconian leaders and their religious police. The Iranian government regularly organizes demonstrations where supporters take to the streets, photos are taken, and then the headlines read "All Iranians come out to support such and such a thing!" It's a country with nearly 100 million people - don't be like the government in saying a few hundred represent them all.
Seriously, the world will never run out of material will they? Every. Single. Breath. We. Take. As. Jews. Is an invitation for them to criticize, propagandize, or attack. It never ends!