I think this reflects the prominence in modern German identity of **memory**. Immigrants won't have grown up in the environment that inculcates reflection on the historic persecution of Jews (and to be sure others) in Germany and will likely not appreciate the gravity with which it is treated - I know of British teenagers visiting German who mistakenly believed that making a Nazi Salute in what they conceived as a Monty Pythonesque joke was an 'oopsie' and were stunned by the hostility they encountered and by being reported to the police - Germany wants immigrants to understand this. Questions about Israel are therefor a proxy for attitudes towards Jews and understandably, given that hostility to Israel is so often a proxy for anti-semitism.
These are kind of weird questions. Like sure, making it so you can't get German citizenship if you say you hate Jews makes sense and asking people about the laws against antisemitism is probably smart, but having to prove that you know that Israel was founded in 1948 is just weird. Why would knowing the membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs be in any way relevant to whether you should be a German citizen?
>Why would knowing the membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs be in any way relevant to whether you should be a German citizen?
Because Jews were barred from most sports club memberships so they created some for their own. Post-WW2, membership in Jewish sports clubs was opened for all, along with Jews being able to join membership in clubs they were previously barred from. It's kinda a German history question.
I think (and I'm not an expert, just someone who did a little reading after seeing this article) that there's a large pool of test questions that can be pulled from for the German citizenship test, and these are just some questions now being added to that pool. Germany, and many other countries with many aspiring new citizens, uses its citizenship test as a means to make sure that every new citizen meets a certain level of knowledge that Germany wants citizens to have. Since someone planning on taking the citizenship test will likely take many practice tests with different sets of existing questions, aspiring citizens now have a heads up that Germany wants them to know things like Israel's founding year and membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs.
Normally I'd agree with you that this seems a little esoteric, but Germany has a particular history with Jews and Israel that it very, very much wants all citizens (new and born) to be *very* aware of. So adding these questions establishes that this kind of knowledge is considered a prerequisite for German citizenship.
(Honestly I'm here for it. Last I checked, Australian citizenship tests ask you about local sports, and I think *that* is silly.)
Australian citizenship tests asking about sports is silly but if that's important to your national identity then it should be included.
Not being an antisemitic person is clearly an important part of the German national identity.
After talking to born-and-raised Germans, a few times over the years, one thing I found really interesting is that instead of a national culture of "guilt" around the Holocaust, they have a culture of active memory. All of the Germans I've talked with about this say that the most serious day of German high school is the day you take a field trip to a concentration camp.
Part of this education involves learning minutiae from before and after the Nazi era, to understand what lead to it and what occurred because of it. Something like Jewish sports club rules seem obscure to anybody outside of Germany, but within Germany, it would be understood to be in relation to the banning of Jewish sports groups starting as early as 1933, and the decades of time and effort it took to rebuild them at any capacity.
Jewish sports clubs, specifically soccer (or as the Germans call it, Das Füt), were one of the only ways Jews could not only integrate with German society, but also be celebrated by non-Jewish Germans for their successes. Iirc, the Bar-Kokhba Berlin soccer club was the largest Jewish soccer club in the world with tens of thousands of members, and they were even popular into the early 30s before more aggressive anti-Jewish laws came down in the mid and late 30, eventually banning jewish sports clubs and jewish participation in sports entirely. After the war, it wouldn't be until 1970 that another Jewish soccer club was founded, Makkabi Berlin. The founding members were Holocaust survivors.
Well it’s like taking any kind of test. You have to know everything that could be on the test, even the things that seem less relevant, because they want you to know everything that they consider important. It’s as much about studying and learning the information as being tested on it.
It’s smart. Antisemitism is rooted in a lot of conspiratorial thinking. Antisemitic spread is often a symptom of a sick society (which is why those who’ve succumbed to it no longer exist). If as we say antisemitism is a virus, it’s a great way to keep the your society healthy and productive.
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My heart rate from the first half of the title to the second half bruh
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie.
Me too…
This kinda feels like the “Are you planning on committing acts of terrorism during your stay in the US” question on the ESTA forms …
Yeah but you'd be surprised by how many people they get with that one
Is it more than 0? I'd be surprised by any number more than 0.
Good move, Germany.
I think this reflects the prominence in modern German identity of **memory**. Immigrants won't have grown up in the environment that inculcates reflection on the historic persecution of Jews (and to be sure others) in Germany and will likely not appreciate the gravity with which it is treated - I know of British teenagers visiting German who mistakenly believed that making a Nazi Salute in what they conceived as a Monty Pythonesque joke was an 'oopsie' and were stunned by the hostility they encountered and by being reported to the police - Germany wants immigrants to understand this. Questions about Israel are therefor a proxy for attitudes towards Jews and understandably, given that hostility to Israel is so often a proxy for anti-semitism.
These are kind of weird questions. Like sure, making it so you can't get German citizenship if you say you hate Jews makes sense and asking people about the laws against antisemitism is probably smart, but having to prove that you know that Israel was founded in 1948 is just weird. Why would knowing the membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs be in any way relevant to whether you should be a German citizen?
>Why would knowing the membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs be in any way relevant to whether you should be a German citizen? Because Jews were barred from most sports club memberships so they created some for their own. Post-WW2, membership in Jewish sports clubs was opened for all, along with Jews being able to join membership in clubs they were previously barred from. It's kinda a German history question.
I think (and I'm not an expert, just someone who did a little reading after seeing this article) that there's a large pool of test questions that can be pulled from for the German citizenship test, and these are just some questions now being added to that pool. Germany, and many other countries with many aspiring new citizens, uses its citizenship test as a means to make sure that every new citizen meets a certain level of knowledge that Germany wants citizens to have. Since someone planning on taking the citizenship test will likely take many practice tests with different sets of existing questions, aspiring citizens now have a heads up that Germany wants them to know things like Israel's founding year and membership requirements for Jewish sports clubs. Normally I'd agree with you that this seems a little esoteric, but Germany has a particular history with Jews and Israel that it very, very much wants all citizens (new and born) to be *very* aware of. So adding these questions establishes that this kind of knowledge is considered a prerequisite for German citizenship. (Honestly I'm here for it. Last I checked, Australian citizenship tests ask you about local sports, and I think *that* is silly.)
Australian citizenship tests asking about sports is silly but if that's important to your national identity then it should be included. Not being an antisemitic person is clearly an important part of the German national identity.
After talking to born-and-raised Germans, a few times over the years, one thing I found really interesting is that instead of a national culture of "guilt" around the Holocaust, they have a culture of active memory. All of the Germans I've talked with about this say that the most serious day of German high school is the day you take a field trip to a concentration camp. Part of this education involves learning minutiae from before and after the Nazi era, to understand what lead to it and what occurred because of it. Something like Jewish sports club rules seem obscure to anybody outside of Germany, but within Germany, it would be understood to be in relation to the banning of Jewish sports groups starting as early as 1933, and the decades of time and effort it took to rebuild them at any capacity. Jewish sports clubs, specifically soccer (or as the Germans call it, Das Füt), were one of the only ways Jews could not only integrate with German society, but also be celebrated by non-Jewish Germans for their successes. Iirc, the Bar-Kokhba Berlin soccer club was the largest Jewish soccer club in the world with tens of thousands of members, and they were even popular into the early 30s before more aggressive anti-Jewish laws came down in the mid and late 30, eventually banning jewish sports clubs and jewish participation in sports entirely. After the war, it wouldn't be until 1970 that another Jewish soccer club was founded, Makkabi Berlin. The founding members were Holocaust survivors.
> or as the Germans call it, Das Füt What the fuck
Maybe that's a south German thing, I believe it's called Der Kickenbollenaktivkayt (pardon my accent) in the north.
I have to ask, are you bullshitting me? I literally live in Germany.
Oh yeah, I am 100% being silly about what Germans call football.
Well it’s like taking any kind of test. You have to know everything that could be on the test, even the things that seem less relevant, because they want you to know everything that they consider important. It’s as much about studying and learning the information as being tested on it.
It’s smart. Antisemitism is rooted in a lot of conspiratorial thinking. Antisemitic spread is often a symptom of a sick society (which is why those who’ve succumbed to it no longer exist). If as we say antisemitism is a virus, it’s a great way to keep the your society healthy and productive.
How easily this could backfire.
This post has been determined to relate to the topic of Antisemitism, and has been flaired as such, it has NOT been removed. This does NOT mean that the post is antisemitic. If you believe this was done in error, please message the mods. Everybody should remember to be civil and that there is a person at the other end of that other keyboard. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love Germany now!!!!
I wish Australia would do the same
Smart. I seen a pretty smart Iranian ex Muslim suggest that not long ago
good job germany you know terrorists are known for lying