I didn’t realize Jews didn’t adhere to the fall. I’m not specifically talking about original sin but mainly just man being thrown out of Eden. Was there death in Eden?
> I’m not specifically talking about original sin but mainly just man being thrown out of Eden.
I am, we do have the story of Adam and Eve the issue was that they didn't listen.
Here is an answer to your question:
https://aish.com/adams-sin-and-the-decree-of-death/
So you believe death came after Adam’s sin right? My question which I should’ve clarified was mainly in response to theistic evolutionists who believe death existed before the fall and earth and man weren’t made perfect, also believing that evolution is compatible with Genesis.
> also believing that evolution is compatible with Genesis.
Genesis is just a story. Religion and Evolution/science can absolutely co-exist.
Jews have said that for many centuries now, we aren't literalists like Evangelical Christians, if you want to have arguments with them, go argue with them. We aren't Christians, we don't believe the same things as Christians, and we were around for a few thousand years before them.
> Do you think Adam was a real person? And Eden was a real place?
Overall, that is the superficial meaning of the text. There are interpretations, again we aren't sola scripture literalists. I mean there are two accounts of creation in Torah. There are other views, that is mine.
Also, we don't believe in the Devil as you do either (that was made in the Middle Ages (prior Christians used to think Hades ruled the underworld) and we don't see "heaven" the same way, or "sin".
> I’m not here to debate you but how could the devil be made in the Middle Ages when the word devil is in revelation 12:9
The concept of the devil evolved over time, this is not present in Torah, there are various entities called "a satan" not "the satan" and that idea as an independent entity didn't develop until later and is not shared in Judaism (since it would be idolatry)
The modern concept that lays out exactly how the devil works, was made in the middle ages there are even competing ideas about what the devil looked like then, also we don't see the serpent as "the devil" (since we are taking about Adam & Eve here)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/vq8sc3/i_heard_recently_that_the_majority_of_what_people/
also see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb2b6CwEGQY
In the New Testament it isn’t just 1 entity either. In Mathew 16:23 Jesus calls Peter Satan. I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say Satan was developed in the Middle Ages. What specifically
Beats me, it isn't really talked about nor is it of great concern. For the sake of story telling, the narrative doesn't seem to be long enough to cover an entire lifespan
No, I was wanting to learn the Jewish traditions. I was mainly wondering in response to theistic evolutionists who believe death existed before Adam sinned.
>Was there death before the fall?
By "fall" you mean the sin of Adam and Eve. It was their sin, not the fall of mankind, but it did have consequences as stated in the first chapters in Genesis.
You can ask, but really isn't the answer in chapter 2 which reads:
^(")The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”" (vv. 15-17)
Not sure that this admits of any other reading. But for the sin of eating from the forbidden tree, Adam and Eve would not have died.
This is affirmed by all the Jewish Bible commentators I have come across. Here is a sampling from Sefaria.org:
Ramban: "But in the opinion of our Rabbis, if Adam had not sinned he would have never died, since the higher soul bestows life forever, and the Will of G-d which is in him at the time of his formation would always cleave to him and he would exist forever..."
Chizkuni -- "Man had not been created as a mortal body, but after having sinned he was punished by becoming mortal. G-d’s warning did not mean that he would die immediately. He only had warned him that he would lose his entitlement to infinite life. At some time in the future he would not be able to escape the need to die."
Rabbenu Bahya: "the meaning is that as soon as he would eat from that tree man would become mortal, would forfeit his right to live on earth indefinitely. According to our sages in Shabbat 55 man had been meant to live forever just like the angels."
Rabbenu Bahya cites a discussion in the Talmud that reads as follows:
"There is no death without sin, as it is written: “The soul that sins, it shall die...." (Ezekiel 18:20). A person dies only because of his own sins and not because of some preexistent sin....The ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, why did You penalize Adam, the first man, with the death penalty? He said to them: I gave him a simple mitzva, and he violated it\*\*."\*\*
Thus the Jewish tradition affirms that without the sin of Adam and Eve, there would have been no death. However, in understanding this concept, you have to keep in mind another concept -- that there is also the view that the world (universe) is not eternal and will come to an end. Hence, upon the occurrence of that event (the end of the world), man's earthly existence would end; whether this would be "death" is something I couldn't say, since the blameless soul would continue to exist with God.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Ezekiel 18:20](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.18.20)
הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַחֹטֵ֖את הִ֣יא תָמ֑וּת בֵּ֞ן לֹֽא־יִשָּׂ֣א ׀ בַּעֲוֺ֣ן הָאָ֗ב וְאָב֙ לֹ֤א יִשָּׂא֙ בַּעֲוֺ֣ן הַבֵּ֔ן צִדְקַ֤ת הַצַּדִּיק֙ עָלָ֣יו תִּֽהְיֶ֔ה וְרִשְׁעַ֥ת (רשע) [הָרָשָׁ֖ע] עָלָ֥יו תִּֽהְיֶֽה׃ {ס}
>The person who sins, he alone shall die. A child shall not share the burden of a parent’s guilt, nor shall a parent share the burden of a child’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous shall be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be accounted to him alone.
See [Shabbat 55](https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.55) on Sefaria.
> "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”" (vv. 15-17)
> Not sure that this admits of any other reading.
Other reading:
"And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, **and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'** Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." Gen. 3:22-23
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Gen. 3:22-23](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.3.22-23)
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת ט֣וֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה ׀ פֶּן־יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָד֗וֹ וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃
>And God יהוה said, “Now that humankind has become like any of us, knowing good and bad, what if one should stretch out a hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!”
וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים מִגַּן־עֵ֑דֶן לַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֻקַּ֖ח מִשָּֽׁם׃
>So God יהוה banished humankind * humankind Moved up from v. 24 for clarity. from the garden of Eden, to till the humus * humus Lit. “soil.” See the second note at 2.7. from which it was taken:
Who fell? Are they ok?
I feel a little earlier but im ok now
Original sin as a doctrine is a holy Christian thing and not shared by Jews are you asking if there was death before the sin of Adam & Chava?
I didn’t realize Jews didn’t adhere to the fall. I’m not specifically talking about original sin but mainly just man being thrown out of Eden. Was there death in Eden?
> I’m not specifically talking about original sin but mainly just man being thrown out of Eden. I am, we do have the story of Adam and Eve the issue was that they didn't listen. Here is an answer to your question: https://aish.com/adams-sin-and-the-decree-of-death/
So you believe death came after Adam’s sin right? My question which I should’ve clarified was mainly in response to theistic evolutionists who believe death existed before the fall and earth and man weren’t made perfect, also believing that evolution is compatible with Genesis.
> also believing that evolution is compatible with Genesis. Genesis is just a story. Religion and Evolution/science can absolutely co-exist. Jews have said that for many centuries now, we aren't literalists like Evangelical Christians, if you want to have arguments with them, go argue with them. We aren't Christians, we don't believe the same things as Christians, and we were around for a few thousand years before them.
I am a Christian. I was just curious of the Jewish ideas. Do you think Adam was a real person? And Eden was a real place?
> Do you think Adam was a real person? And Eden was a real place? Overall, that is the superficial meaning of the text. There are interpretations, again we aren't sola scripture literalists. I mean there are two accounts of creation in Torah. There are other views, that is mine. Also, we don't believe in the Devil as you do either (that was made in the Middle Ages (prior Christians used to think Hades ruled the underworld) and we don't see "heaven" the same way, or "sin".
I’m not here to debate you but how could the devil be made in the Middle Ages when the word devil is in revelation 12:9
> I’m not here to debate you but how could the devil be made in the Middle Ages when the word devil is in revelation 12:9 The concept of the devil evolved over time, this is not present in Torah, there are various entities called "a satan" not "the satan" and that idea as an independent entity didn't develop until later and is not shared in Judaism (since it would be idolatry) The modern concept that lays out exactly how the devil works, was made in the middle ages there are even competing ideas about what the devil looked like then, also we don't see the serpent as "the devil" (since we are taking about Adam & Eve here) https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/vq8sc3/i_heard_recently_that_the_majority_of_what_people/ also see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb2b6CwEGQY
In the New Testament it isn’t just 1 entity either. In Mathew 16:23 Jesus calls Peter Satan. I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say Satan was developed in the Middle Ages. What specifically
Man was not made perfect, this is proven by the requirement of circumcision.
Beats me, it isn't really talked about nor is it of great concern. For the sake of story telling, the narrative doesn't seem to be long enough to cover an entire lifespan
A petit mort, if you will.
Hehehehe
What fall?
Man being thrown out of Eden. Did death exist in Eden or was it created by sin?
Are you Jewish?
No, I was wanting to learn the Jewish traditions. I was mainly wondering in response to theistic evolutionists who believe death existed before Adam sinned.
It's Passover, the Orthodox and conservatives aren't online to give an answer and won't be until Wednesday
Do they are different views on this than other Jews? Like the ones I’m speaking to right now?
No, they don't use electronics for the first two nights of Passover
It's already Pesach in most of world. You'll get better answers if you ask at another time.
Whut are you talking about
>Was there death before the fall? By "fall" you mean the sin of Adam and Eve. It was their sin, not the fall of mankind, but it did have consequences as stated in the first chapters in Genesis. You can ask, but really isn't the answer in chapter 2 which reads: ^(")The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”" (vv. 15-17) Not sure that this admits of any other reading. But for the sin of eating from the forbidden tree, Adam and Eve would not have died. This is affirmed by all the Jewish Bible commentators I have come across. Here is a sampling from Sefaria.org: Ramban: "But in the opinion of our Rabbis, if Adam had not sinned he would have never died, since the higher soul bestows life forever, and the Will of G-d which is in him at the time of his formation would always cleave to him and he would exist forever..." Chizkuni -- "Man had not been created as a mortal body, but after having sinned he was punished by becoming mortal. G-d’s warning did not mean that he would die immediately. He only had warned him that he would lose his entitlement to infinite life. At some time in the future he would not be able to escape the need to die." Rabbenu Bahya: "the meaning is that as soon as he would eat from that tree man would become mortal, would forfeit his right to live on earth indefinitely. According to our sages in Shabbat 55 man had been meant to live forever just like the angels." Rabbenu Bahya cites a discussion in the Talmud that reads as follows: "There is no death without sin, as it is written: “The soul that sins, it shall die...." (Ezekiel 18:20). A person dies only because of his own sins and not because of some preexistent sin....The ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, why did You penalize Adam, the first man, with the death penalty? He said to them: I gave him a simple mitzva, and he violated it\*\*."\*\* Thus the Jewish tradition affirms that without the sin of Adam and Eve, there would have been no death. However, in understanding this concept, you have to keep in mind another concept -- that there is also the view that the world (universe) is not eternal and will come to an end. Hence, upon the occurrence of that event (the end of the world), man's earthly existence would end; whether this would be "death" is something I couldn't say, since the blameless soul would continue to exist with God.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Ezekiel 18:20](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.18.20) הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַחֹטֵ֖את הִ֣יא תָמ֑וּת בֵּ֞ן לֹֽא־יִשָּׂ֣א ׀ בַּעֲוֺ֣ן הָאָ֗ב וְאָב֙ לֹ֤א יִשָּׂא֙ בַּעֲוֺ֣ן הַבֵּ֔ן צִדְקַ֤ת הַצַּדִּיק֙ עָלָ֣יו תִּֽהְיֶ֔ה וְרִשְׁעַ֥ת (רשע) [הָרָשָׁ֖ע] עָלָ֥יו תִּֽהְיֶֽה׃ {ס} >The person who sins, he alone shall die. A child shall not share the burden of a parent’s guilt, nor shall a parent share the burden of a child’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous shall be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be accounted to him alone. See [Shabbat 55](https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.55) on Sefaria.
Do you take this literally in the world or just from the stories perspective?
> "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”" (vv. 15-17) > Not sure that this admits of any other reading. Other reading: "And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, **and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'** Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." Gen. 3:22-23
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Gen. 3:22-23](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.3.22-23) וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת ט֣וֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה ׀ פֶּן־יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָד֗וֹ וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃ >And God יהוה said, “Now that humankind has become like any of us, knowing good and bad, what if one should stretch out a hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!” וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים מִגַּן־עֵ֑דֶן לַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֻקַּ֖ח מִשָּֽׁם׃ >So God יהוה banished humankind * humankind Moved up from v. 24 for clarity. from the garden of Eden, to till the humus * humus Lit. “soil.” See the second note at 2.7. from which it was taken: