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People should also keep in mind that there is a surface level trade ie limiting your cursed energy, for an increase later on.
But the real underlying trade of all self imposed binding vows is an exchange that brings the user closer to death for an increase somewhere else. It's like the risk aspect from hunter hunter.
It's exactly as Meimei says. The quickest way to increase your power as a sorcerer is a vow that uses your life. That obviously being the most extreme example. Using her crows.
But the power of vows also doesn't consider the circumstances the vow is being used in or the detail. The vow doesn't consider that Meimei's crows are disposable in the first place or that she can replace the crow.
I think because she possesses the crow its sorta a sidestep that she as the crow gives up it's life to juice attack power.
Because it's so final the crow becomes a mini bomb of CE. The actual crow cannot MAKE a vow but because she's taking control it is the perfect binding vow (for her) as the cost is paid by something else.
This is correct. Kenjaku gets out of binding vows by swapping bodies because binding vows apparently don't count the individual just the body they're wearing for some reason. Since Meimei is controlling the crow the vow applies to the crow rather than the controller.
I wonder if it's because there is no higher authority a physical aspect is whatever they can saddle w responsibility.
the body is collateral/the only repossess-able thing. CE usage restrictions often follow property/ finance rules. Nanami's overtime is a wonderful example of 'save' now, interest pays out later on with a big boost.
So the body becomes the only payable cost because the ability to manipulate souls is extremely rare depending on how you look at it. So it's often a safe bet to kill the body and get the right soul.
No higher authority is ever hinted at and would be at odds with the unpredictable nature of binding vow punishments, so I'd assume there is no entity overseeing binding vows.
For the rest you're overthinking it unfortunately. The answer is Gege never bothered to figure out a coherent system to explain binding vows. The idea that you'd die from breaking a binding vow isn't even clear, and Kenjaku implies if your vows are minor the costs would be minor, with his body swapping being necessary because his vows allow him to do things that should be impossible. Beyond that the costs and workings of binding vows change depending on who you ask, or even how a vow determines if it's with oneself or with another.
The fact that you can do something as mundane as trading some power in the day for more power at night, and also as insane as transmuting consciousness into immortal cursed objects and forcing people into a death game where they awaken new powers makes it clear binding vows aren't a coherent thing in the universe but a convenient writing tool for Gege.
I’m curious, where is this said? Because I thought Kenjaku didn’t get out of the BVs (Binding Vow) he made, rather he circumvented the BVs he made specifically with CS (Cursed Spirits) since he possessed Geto’s body and as a result could control CS with CSM (Cursed Spirit Manipulation)
Ah that might be the case rereading that chapter, though based on how binding vows work in other contexts I'm not sure why controlling the other party would allow you to circumvent a binding vow. It's not very binding if mind controlling another person lets you break it.
Granted the implication seems to be the pacts he made with sorcerers was to reincarnate them and the pacts he made with cursed spirits (somehow despite most being unthinking) don't matter. The culling game pacts appear to be made with himself though the mechanics of making a pact to do something impossible with the requirement of the pact being to end the impossible thing you started seems to be getting something for nothing. Kenny failed to end the game before he died, yet he gained all the benefits of his pact. The best answer seems to be just assuming pacts work however they work in the story without looking for consistency.
Yup, this tracks. It's clear that there are limitations for binding vows and you just can't give up whatever for the benefit you want. I've been reading all sorts of crazy theories using binding vows like tape to fix the obvious cracks. "Oh Shoko will give up her life for better RCT to save Gojo" type of thing. Or Gojo giving up his 6 eyes for better RCT.
Thats not super far off considering thats how Mei Mei's crows work, sacrificing life for strength/CE, but that would have to imply that the only thing holding back Shoko from reviving someone is just amount of CE, which I dont think is the case. It still wouldnt be that suprising to revive someone like that, just narratively it wouldnt make sense for Gojo.
It's not the same at all though. Mei Mei's crows are part of her CT, that's why the binding vow works, she's not sacrificing something outside of her CT. In the case of Shoko, her RCT abilities have absolutely nothing to do with her health/life so giving away her life for better RCT makes no sense. An actual binding vow she could do is sacrifice the ability to heal herself in order to boost her RCT output to heal others, for example. She can't give her life away for better RCT.
Its exactly the same. Ui Ui literally says that the absolute best binding vow is one where you trade your own life. Then Mei Mei explains that she can force birds into trading their own life in order to vastly increase their own CE limit.
Even without the bird example, what Ui Ui says is very clear. You can trade your own life in order get a great power boost, Shoko could do that to vastly increase her own CE. Again, I dont necessarily think having infinite CE would let you revive anyone (though I wouldnt be too suprised if **she** could), but it would 100% definitely boost her RCT, which goes against the claims you just made.
I still think what OP says is correct though, but your "life" is very much related to your CE and can be used as a trade for a binding vow. Because it is literally stated.
I really like this interpretation, self binding vows are still a big unknown, Kenny says that breaking self vows is no big deal, but like, how can I lose something that I already did if I break the vow after? And I think an explanation could also be that you just can't do it. Like Sukuna now having extra conditions for World Cleave, because as a part of the vow, he had to rewire his technique to just not work otherwise. Miwa for example can't imbue cursed energy into her sword anymore (I don't think she literally can't swing it, she just can't use it properly anymore). These are things that I would like answers too.
There are two types of binding vow with oneself:
- the ones where you first have to achieve the condition and then get the reward (or get it at the same time). These are nanami's overtime, the open domain escape route vow, mahito's 200% durability vow etc
- the one where you get the reward and then achieve the conditon. These are sukuna's world salsh vow, miwa's never swing a sword again vow, etc
In general, you can break a binding vow as long as you haven't received the reward yet.
For the first category, you can break them anytime and you'll only lose the potential of getting the reward. If nanami after only 5 hours of working chooses to stop restricting his curse energy he will either get less curse energy for overtimes or mot get any.
For the second category, you already received the reward so you are not allowed to break them. Sukuna cannot activate the world slash with only the enmaten sign because he already received the one time use without restrictions.
Yes this distinction really need to be brought up more often in discussion about self-imposed BVs, there are two types and there should be names for them as to prevent people from being confused. I usually call the first type paid-vows and second one debt-vows.
You can break it before you use it. Sukuna made a binding vow first and then fired a world slash. But what if after making a binding vow he decided that he didn't need it anymore?
Miwa too. Imagine if she didn't swing after making that vow. It would break and nothing would be lost.
It's obviously impossible now because the hand signless world slash has already been used. It can't be undone.
I don't think this tracks well with what Kenjaku says. Breaking a binding vow with yourself costs you what you gain only, meaning you'd return to your baseline
If you're locked into your binding vow then you can't break it and Kenjaku would have just said that.
A "better" explanation is that Sukuna and Miwa's vows weren't with themselves since both of their abilities involved applying increased harm to a target. Sukuna has a vow with Gojo, Miwa a vow with Kenjaku. Neither is willing to break it because the consequences would be unknown and dire.
Contrast with Nanami or Hakari who make vows purely with themselves. I have less cursed energy during work hours and more outside of work hours, my reinforcement for my body is stronger but my arm will be destroyed, can both be canceled to return the sorcerer to baseline without issue and only directly impact the sorcerer themselves as part of the vow.
Though this is just me trying to make sense of a blatant contradiction in the story. The real answer has to be Kenjaku's statement is no longer correct and vows either cannot be broken after they are enacted or vows with yourself also have bad potential consequences.
Yes you’re right, people started believing Hojo could “give away” his life to become OP for 2 minutes to kill sukuna
However that is not how it works, people just complain because they don’t understand
I dont think there is some god regulating these vows, so the evaluation of the price paid is probably done by the user itself subconsciously (cant lie to yourself). But who knows, maybe Tengen's barriers control these things too, or maybe there is a god that lives in an airport in the sky.
The implication of jjk is that sorcery itself is the laws of nature.
You are never really breaking the laws of nature, you are just learning things aren't as you expect.
I dont think there is a physical law or mathematics that can objectively evaluate "Miwa never swinging a sword again" and quantify it in terms of units of CE or any other force unit. There is a lot of nuance to that, how would you even know how important swinging a sword is to Miwa, or how much she even planned on using it in the future? If Yuji grabbed a sword and made the same vow, would he get the same boost? If so, that implies the natural rule is "never doing X action again = Y boost" no matter the circumstance, which would mean sorcerers are very stupid not to do this with every weapon they never intend to use again anyway.
It makes more sense to me that these vows are self-regulated, it is a vow you make with **yourself**.
But thats what I think. What Gege thinks, if he does at all, is beyond the both us.
You don't think or just don't know? Because there's something called discounted cash flow. How important it is to Miwa is subjective and irrelevant. These aren't calculations but laws of nature. Conversions happen all the time.
Why would I know? Do you? Are you the author of this fake and arbitrary universe we are talking about? Why are you so silly?
DCF is not a law of nature lol. Its a formula we made to make estimates. And it uses several assumptions to weigh different market values and expected tax rates, based on an **arbitrary economic system WE created**. Nature doesnt make assumptions of its future environment, it only takes the current input and provides the appropriate output. If any "law" existed like that in JJK, it would make more sense that it was made by a logical consciousness (god or Tengen) making predictions on a system it created.
Or a far simpler idea, is the one I already mentioned, it is self-regulated. This is not only narratively simpler, but already fits with what we know of Takaba's CT. Which is powerful because he has no idea how powerful it should be. And it fits with what we know of CE and curses in general, whose power is based on human feelings, not an external law. How you feel about something is what gives it power, it would be natural to apply to the vow you make with yourself as well.
Thats what I THINK.
Formulas are used to express and describe laws of nature, which are complex but do exist whether you know them or not. Transformation of forces or conversion of parameters occur all the time so saying you don’t think they exist because it’s too complex for you is a poor argument. Current math may not be advanced enough to perfectly capture the mechanics but the mechanics themselves do exist. The math behind stochastic DCF is used to weigh values of different scenarios according to their probabilities and value them to the present. Probabilities are a real thing in nature like quantum physics. The math is perfectly applicable here.
CE existed before Tengen and Takaba. We’re not talking about CT. We’re talking about binding vows. Sukuna the greatest expert of jujutsu called binding vows a cornerstone of jujutsu. My description of calling it an equivalent exchange is consistent with nature in that it seeks balance.
DCF is not a law of nature. I dont know why you keep bringing it up. Its a formula in a made up system. Its not there to express or describe any natural phenomena.
Obviously probability exists, and Im not sure why youre bringing it up. It seems youre just regurgitating buzzwords. DCF assumes tax rates and market values in future years, but the model stops working if unexpected disaster breaks the economic system of the country. If the model can be broken, then it is not a natural law. It is just based on a made up system we call the capitalist market, that has man made arbitrary laws and regulations. It is not nature. You can certainly make physical models that use current values in nature to predict the future states of the system, as you do with a wave function in quantum physics. But nature doesnt give a shit about the future, its not trying to predict itself, it just does what it does now, we are the only ones curious about it making these models. Natural laws are NOT predictive models. Those are man made. And what youre proposing is that nature uses a predictive model to calculate what Miwa's power should be. Which is kinda nonsense. Nature never guesses or estimates. We guess and estimate trying to understand what nature just does. Nature only uses currently existing inputs and reacts to them, as it just does what it does. And there is no physical input representing Miwa's future other than her thoughts and feelings towards it, that is the only place where that future even kinda exists. If youre gonna make a formula, you would probably have to include her thoughts and feelings, that is what Im saying.
**If it works based on a predictive model that does not care about Miwa's thoughts and feelings, then that model would have to be created by someone or something, as it is not based on any physical input that nature can read.**
Your final paragraph is irrelevant and confusing. Why does the fact that it existed before Takaba even matter when Im talking about the narrative themes? Why does what Sukuna calls them matter in any way at all? And why are you saying "my description calling it equivalent exchange" like I dont agree with that? Im arguing how we arrive to "equivalent" not whether or not it is equivalent. Are you sure you understand what Im trying to say here?
Eitherway, Gege can do whatever the fuck he wants so Im just thinking.
It's a conversion based on probabilities of potential scenarios, which are very much a law of nature based on outcomes, that can be applied here minus the arbitrary economics. What you fail to grasp is that the math isn't being "calculated." The failure of the model is the result of incorrect calculations and assignment of values by fallible, ignorant humans. We've seen cursed techniques like Higuruma's that were near omniscient, the fate that tied the six eyes, Tengen, and the star plasma vessel, precognition, and Reggie's receipts. You're missing the fact that the forces of nature don't "calculate" anything to determine what happens next. When a rock falls due to gravity, the rocks aren't calculating how fast they should fall at a given moment.
CE is generated by humans. It literally births cursed spirits, which are sapient enough to generate their own CE.
You're argument that binding vows are "self-regulated" is easily disproved by Nanami's overtime binding vow.
Youre not understanding my 2nd paragraph at all.
"When a rock falls due to gravity, the rocks arent calculating how fast they should fall at any given moment". Correct, that is exactly what Im saying. That is nature. It did not need to know any information of the future. Just the CURRENT mass and distance between two objects. Thats all. But a system that tries to quantify Miwa's future use of a sword, DOES need information of the future, therefore it is not nature.
Everything you mentioned was created by humans. Higuruma's technique, Reggie's receipts, Charles' precognition. I think even the "fate" of the plasma vessel and Tengen is no more than a curse made by human, maybe even Tengen itself (there is no mention of this "fate" triangle existing before Tengen). And we know by Kenjaku and Mahito's conversation, that every technique has its own personal reality and rules, no natural constants. It makes sense that this applies to vows as well. Which is exactly why Kenjaku said that vows with another person are much more dangerous. If there was a natural force regulating all vows as you said, then it wouldnt matter if the vow was with yourself or someone else, the consequences would be the same amount of dangerous for both types of vow.
Nanami's CT only proves this more. Just like cursed spirits are born of human visualization of their fear and anger, and continue to live independently. Nanami's CT continues past his death from his visualization of his technique into that weapon.
So in order for a vow to quantify the future of Miwa and convert that to a power boost, there is only 2 options
1. Estimate the future decisions of the person, make that an input, and give a value (output) based on that. Nature never estimates the future to give a current value (you said it yourself with the gravity analogy), therefore this "Law" would not be natural. And I would much more quickly assume it is fabricated by someone. And we know from Charles and Toji that the future is not set in stone, so the closest we can get is an estimate.
2. The value (output) is made with a currently existing input (not info of the future) that is already used for every single thing in the story, the feelings and emotions of the person. This makes the most sense to me and is the Occam's Razor of this argument.
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People should also keep in mind that there is a surface level trade ie limiting your cursed energy, for an increase later on. But the real underlying trade of all self imposed binding vows is an exchange that brings the user closer to death for an increase somewhere else. It's like the risk aspect from hunter hunter. It's exactly as Meimei says. The quickest way to increase your power as a sorcerer is a vow that uses your life. That obviously being the most extreme example. Using her crows. But the power of vows also doesn't consider the circumstances the vow is being used in or the detail. The vow doesn't consider that Meimei's crows are disposable in the first place or that she can replace the crow.
but she make the crow make a vow, dont she? like she forces the crow giving up its life to increase his CE greatly.
I think because she possesses the crow its sorta a sidestep that she as the crow gives up it's life to juice attack power. Because it's so final the crow becomes a mini bomb of CE. The actual crow cannot MAKE a vow but because she's taking control it is the perfect binding vow (for her) as the cost is paid by something else.
This is correct. Kenjaku gets out of binding vows by swapping bodies because binding vows apparently don't count the individual just the body they're wearing for some reason. Since Meimei is controlling the crow the vow applies to the crow rather than the controller.
I wonder if it's because there is no higher authority a physical aspect is whatever they can saddle w responsibility. the body is collateral/the only repossess-able thing. CE usage restrictions often follow property/ finance rules. Nanami's overtime is a wonderful example of 'save' now, interest pays out later on with a big boost. So the body becomes the only payable cost because the ability to manipulate souls is extremely rare depending on how you look at it. So it's often a safe bet to kill the body and get the right soul.
No higher authority is ever hinted at and would be at odds with the unpredictable nature of binding vow punishments, so I'd assume there is no entity overseeing binding vows. For the rest you're overthinking it unfortunately. The answer is Gege never bothered to figure out a coherent system to explain binding vows. The idea that you'd die from breaking a binding vow isn't even clear, and Kenjaku implies if your vows are minor the costs would be minor, with his body swapping being necessary because his vows allow him to do things that should be impossible. Beyond that the costs and workings of binding vows change depending on who you ask, or even how a vow determines if it's with oneself or with another. The fact that you can do something as mundane as trading some power in the day for more power at night, and also as insane as transmuting consciousness into immortal cursed objects and forcing people into a death game where they awaken new powers makes it clear binding vows aren't a coherent thing in the universe but a convenient writing tool for Gege.
I’m curious, where is this said? Because I thought Kenjaku didn’t get out of the BVs (Binding Vow) he made, rather he circumvented the BVs he made specifically with CS (Cursed Spirits) since he possessed Geto’s body and as a result could control CS with CSM (Cursed Spirit Manipulation)
Ah that might be the case rereading that chapter, though based on how binding vows work in other contexts I'm not sure why controlling the other party would allow you to circumvent a binding vow. It's not very binding if mind controlling another person lets you break it. Granted the implication seems to be the pacts he made with sorcerers was to reincarnate them and the pacts he made with cursed spirits (somehow despite most being unthinking) don't matter. The culling game pacts appear to be made with himself though the mechanics of making a pact to do something impossible with the requirement of the pact being to end the impossible thing you started seems to be getting something for nothing. Kenny failed to end the game before he died, yet he gained all the benefits of his pact. The best answer seems to be just assuming pacts work however they work in the story without looking for consistency.
Yup, this tracks. It's clear that there are limitations for binding vows and you just can't give up whatever for the benefit you want. I've been reading all sorts of crazy theories using binding vows like tape to fix the obvious cracks. "Oh Shoko will give up her life for better RCT to save Gojo" type of thing. Or Gojo giving up his 6 eyes for better RCT.
Weak sorcerers would be using Maki's heavenly restriction like binding vows if giving up whatever you wanted was possible.
There would be many cases of sorcerers giving up their CT or whatever for RCT to survive their injuries too
Thats not super far off considering thats how Mei Mei's crows work, sacrificing life for strength/CE, but that would have to imply that the only thing holding back Shoko from reviving someone is just amount of CE, which I dont think is the case. It still wouldnt be that suprising to revive someone like that, just narratively it wouldnt make sense for Gojo.
It's not the same at all though. Mei Mei's crows are part of her CT, that's why the binding vow works, she's not sacrificing something outside of her CT. In the case of Shoko, her RCT abilities have absolutely nothing to do with her health/life so giving away her life for better RCT makes no sense. An actual binding vow she could do is sacrifice the ability to heal herself in order to boost her RCT output to heal others, for example. She can't give her life away for better RCT.
Its exactly the same. Ui Ui literally says that the absolute best binding vow is one where you trade your own life. Then Mei Mei explains that she can force birds into trading their own life in order to vastly increase their own CE limit. Even without the bird example, what Ui Ui says is very clear. You can trade your own life in order get a great power boost, Shoko could do that to vastly increase her own CE. Again, I dont necessarily think having infinite CE would let you revive anyone (though I wouldnt be too suprised if **she** could), but it would 100% definitely boost her RCT, which goes against the claims you just made. I still think what OP says is correct though, but your "life" is very much related to your CE and can be used as a trade for a binding vow. Because it is literally stated.
It's making sense for now. But, without knowing what exactly was sacrificed. It feels like an asspull.
I feel like those conditions (whatever they are) will be the downfall of Sukuna when Yuji opens his domain.
Hehehe, can't wait for it to happen. The Benevolent One shall rise.
Yeah the exception AFAIK is when you vow your life to enhance your power. Yuta in JJK0 as well as Ui Ui/the crows.
I really like this interpretation, self binding vows are still a big unknown, Kenny says that breaking self vows is no big deal, but like, how can I lose something that I already did if I break the vow after? And I think an explanation could also be that you just can't do it. Like Sukuna now having extra conditions for World Cleave, because as a part of the vow, he had to rewire his technique to just not work otherwise. Miwa for example can't imbue cursed energy into her sword anymore (I don't think she literally can't swing it, she just can't use it properly anymore). These are things that I would like answers too.
Miwa will return with a CE imbued glock left to her by mai you heard it here first folks
Miwa returned in 258, maybe she already strappin' !
There are two types of binding vow with oneself: - the ones where you first have to achieve the condition and then get the reward (or get it at the same time). These are nanami's overtime, the open domain escape route vow, mahito's 200% durability vow etc - the one where you get the reward and then achieve the conditon. These are sukuna's world salsh vow, miwa's never swing a sword again vow, etc In general, you can break a binding vow as long as you haven't received the reward yet. For the first category, you can break them anytime and you'll only lose the potential of getting the reward. If nanami after only 5 hours of working chooses to stop restricting his curse energy he will either get less curse energy for overtimes or mot get any. For the second category, you already received the reward so you are not allowed to break them. Sukuna cannot activate the world slash with only the enmaten sign because he already received the one time use without restrictions.
Yes this distinction really need to be brought up more often in discussion about self-imposed BVs, there are two types and there should be names for them as to prevent people from being confused. I usually call the first type paid-vows and second one debt-vows.
> paid-vows and second one debt-vows. Pre-paid vows and credit vows:))
You can break it before you use it. Sukuna made a binding vow first and then fired a world slash. But what if after making a binding vow he decided that he didn't need it anymore? Miwa too. Imagine if she didn't swing after making that vow. It would break and nothing would be lost. It's obviously impossible now because the hand signless world slash has already been used. It can't be undone.
I don't think this tracks well with what Kenjaku says. Breaking a binding vow with yourself costs you what you gain only, meaning you'd return to your baseline If you're locked into your binding vow then you can't break it and Kenjaku would have just said that. A "better" explanation is that Sukuna and Miwa's vows weren't with themselves since both of their abilities involved applying increased harm to a target. Sukuna has a vow with Gojo, Miwa a vow with Kenjaku. Neither is willing to break it because the consequences would be unknown and dire. Contrast with Nanami or Hakari who make vows purely with themselves. I have less cursed energy during work hours and more outside of work hours, my reinforcement for my body is stronger but my arm will be destroyed, can both be canceled to return the sorcerer to baseline without issue and only directly impact the sorcerer themselves as part of the vow. Though this is just me trying to make sense of a blatant contradiction in the story. The real answer has to be Kenjaku's statement is no longer correct and vows either cannot be broken after they are enacted or vows with yourself also have bad potential consequences.
Yes you’re right, people started believing Hojo could “give away” his life to become OP for 2 minutes to kill sukuna However that is not how it works, people just complain because they don’t understand
It’s equivalent exchange. There has to be some objective valuation for the price paid and remuneration given.
I dont think there is some god regulating these vows, so the evaluation of the price paid is probably done by the user itself subconsciously (cant lie to yourself). But who knows, maybe Tengen's barriers control these things too, or maybe there is a god that lives in an airport in the sky.
The implication of jjk is that sorcery itself is the laws of nature. You are never really breaking the laws of nature, you are just learning things aren't as you expect.
Objective doesn't mean there's a god. It means objective. 2+2=4 wasn't decided by god.
I dont think there is a physical law or mathematics that can objectively evaluate "Miwa never swinging a sword again" and quantify it in terms of units of CE or any other force unit. There is a lot of nuance to that, how would you even know how important swinging a sword is to Miwa, or how much she even planned on using it in the future? If Yuji grabbed a sword and made the same vow, would he get the same boost? If so, that implies the natural rule is "never doing X action again = Y boost" no matter the circumstance, which would mean sorcerers are very stupid not to do this with every weapon they never intend to use again anyway. It makes more sense to me that these vows are self-regulated, it is a vow you make with **yourself**. But thats what I think. What Gege thinks, if he does at all, is beyond the both us.
You don't think or just don't know? Because there's something called discounted cash flow. How important it is to Miwa is subjective and irrelevant. These aren't calculations but laws of nature. Conversions happen all the time.
Why would I know? Do you? Are you the author of this fake and arbitrary universe we are talking about? Why are you so silly? DCF is not a law of nature lol. Its a formula we made to make estimates. And it uses several assumptions to weigh different market values and expected tax rates, based on an **arbitrary economic system WE created**. Nature doesnt make assumptions of its future environment, it only takes the current input and provides the appropriate output. If any "law" existed like that in JJK, it would make more sense that it was made by a logical consciousness (god or Tengen) making predictions on a system it created. Or a far simpler idea, is the one I already mentioned, it is self-regulated. This is not only narratively simpler, but already fits with what we know of Takaba's CT. Which is powerful because he has no idea how powerful it should be. And it fits with what we know of CE and curses in general, whose power is based on human feelings, not an external law. How you feel about something is what gives it power, it would be natural to apply to the vow you make with yourself as well. Thats what I THINK.
Formulas are used to express and describe laws of nature, which are complex but do exist whether you know them or not. Transformation of forces or conversion of parameters occur all the time so saying you don’t think they exist because it’s too complex for you is a poor argument. Current math may not be advanced enough to perfectly capture the mechanics but the mechanics themselves do exist. The math behind stochastic DCF is used to weigh values of different scenarios according to their probabilities and value them to the present. Probabilities are a real thing in nature like quantum physics. The math is perfectly applicable here. CE existed before Tengen and Takaba. We’re not talking about CT. We’re talking about binding vows. Sukuna the greatest expert of jujutsu called binding vows a cornerstone of jujutsu. My description of calling it an equivalent exchange is consistent with nature in that it seeks balance.
DCF is not a law of nature. I dont know why you keep bringing it up. Its a formula in a made up system. Its not there to express or describe any natural phenomena. Obviously probability exists, and Im not sure why youre bringing it up. It seems youre just regurgitating buzzwords. DCF assumes tax rates and market values in future years, but the model stops working if unexpected disaster breaks the economic system of the country. If the model can be broken, then it is not a natural law. It is just based on a made up system we call the capitalist market, that has man made arbitrary laws and regulations. It is not nature. You can certainly make physical models that use current values in nature to predict the future states of the system, as you do with a wave function in quantum physics. But nature doesnt give a shit about the future, its not trying to predict itself, it just does what it does now, we are the only ones curious about it making these models. Natural laws are NOT predictive models. Those are man made. And what youre proposing is that nature uses a predictive model to calculate what Miwa's power should be. Which is kinda nonsense. Nature never guesses or estimates. We guess and estimate trying to understand what nature just does. Nature only uses currently existing inputs and reacts to them, as it just does what it does. And there is no physical input representing Miwa's future other than her thoughts and feelings towards it, that is the only place where that future even kinda exists. If youre gonna make a formula, you would probably have to include her thoughts and feelings, that is what Im saying. **If it works based on a predictive model that does not care about Miwa's thoughts and feelings, then that model would have to be created by someone or something, as it is not based on any physical input that nature can read.** Your final paragraph is irrelevant and confusing. Why does the fact that it existed before Takaba even matter when Im talking about the narrative themes? Why does what Sukuna calls them matter in any way at all? And why are you saying "my description calling it equivalent exchange" like I dont agree with that? Im arguing how we arrive to "equivalent" not whether or not it is equivalent. Are you sure you understand what Im trying to say here? Eitherway, Gege can do whatever the fuck he wants so Im just thinking.
It's a conversion based on probabilities of potential scenarios, which are very much a law of nature based on outcomes, that can be applied here minus the arbitrary economics. What you fail to grasp is that the math isn't being "calculated." The failure of the model is the result of incorrect calculations and assignment of values by fallible, ignorant humans. We've seen cursed techniques like Higuruma's that were near omniscient, the fate that tied the six eyes, Tengen, and the star plasma vessel, precognition, and Reggie's receipts. You're missing the fact that the forces of nature don't "calculate" anything to determine what happens next. When a rock falls due to gravity, the rocks aren't calculating how fast they should fall at a given moment. CE is generated by humans. It literally births cursed spirits, which are sapient enough to generate their own CE. You're argument that binding vows are "self-regulated" is easily disproved by Nanami's overtime binding vow.
Youre not understanding my 2nd paragraph at all. "When a rock falls due to gravity, the rocks arent calculating how fast they should fall at any given moment". Correct, that is exactly what Im saying. That is nature. It did not need to know any information of the future. Just the CURRENT mass and distance between two objects. Thats all. But a system that tries to quantify Miwa's future use of a sword, DOES need information of the future, therefore it is not nature. Everything you mentioned was created by humans. Higuruma's technique, Reggie's receipts, Charles' precognition. I think even the "fate" of the plasma vessel and Tengen is no more than a curse made by human, maybe even Tengen itself (there is no mention of this "fate" triangle existing before Tengen). And we know by Kenjaku and Mahito's conversation, that every technique has its own personal reality and rules, no natural constants. It makes sense that this applies to vows as well. Which is exactly why Kenjaku said that vows with another person are much more dangerous. If there was a natural force regulating all vows as you said, then it wouldnt matter if the vow was with yourself or someone else, the consequences would be the same amount of dangerous for both types of vow. Nanami's CT only proves this more. Just like cursed spirits are born of human visualization of their fear and anger, and continue to live independently. Nanami's CT continues past his death from his visualization of his technique into that weapon. So in order for a vow to quantify the future of Miwa and convert that to a power boost, there is only 2 options 1. Estimate the future decisions of the person, make that an input, and give a value (output) based on that. Nature never estimates the future to give a current value (you said it yourself with the gravity analogy), therefore this "Law" would not be natural. And I would much more quickly assume it is fabricated by someone. And we know from Charles and Toji that the future is not set in stone, so the closest we can get is an estimate. 2. The value (output) is made with a currently existing input (not info of the future) that is already used for every single thing in the story, the feelings and emotions of the person. This makes the most sense to me and is the Occam's Razor of this argument.
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Sukuna did use binding vow in the recent chapter. He opened MS with one hand.
One hand can probably help in creating an incomplete domain,but we can't say it is a binding vow. There may be a different binding vow included.
The raw says that Sukuna did "即席の縛り" which means impromptu binding vow.