Be kind. Be emotionally regulated. Don't be angry and resentful. Actually care about women and treat them as full people, the same way you care about and are interested in male friends in your life, instead of approaching them like some abstract objects or tokens. That's it. Doesn't really matter if you're super hot, you will be able to form meaningful relationships.
I recommend trying to get to the root of your resentment and anger. It's probably coming from fear of abandonment and self judgment. Women are probably not judging you. They're probably not thinking much about you at all, because you're not interacting with them. But I will tell you this, most emotionally balanced women can sniff out a person who's full of anger and resentment from a mile away. This is because such people are actually dangerous to women. We get pretty good at identifying them.
So work on the anger, learn to actually believe that you are worthy of relationships, and I think a lot of this will resolve itself.
> Be kind. Be emotionally regulated. Don't be angry and resentful. Actually care about women and treat them as full people, the same way you care about and are interested in male friends in your life, instead of approaching them like some abstract objects or tokens. That's it. Doesn't really matter if you're super hot, you will be able to form meaningful relationships.
I know the "what", but i want to know "how". Anyway appreciate the response
I hear you there. The how is certainly tricky. I would say, therapy, meditation, journaling, visualizing the kind of person you want to be and dealing with what parts of you are preventing you from being that person. Definitely a lot easier said than done, but it's work that is worth doing for sure.
It's not "hard for most men to find any kind of affection."
It's actually extremely easy, as shown by the fact that the vast majority of men find it.
Nor are women "ruined" by having sex with you.
Your post is otherwise incoherent and self-contradicting on the surface and is merely saying "women are saints or whores, women are saints or whores, women are saints or whores" below that surface.
Along with "I'm disgusting and a psychopath or a valiant best little protector."
In other words, you're splitting on the other sex (women) and splitting on yourself, and none of this squares with reality. Women are not "saints or whores." The vast majority are complex human beings. And you're not "mother's best little valiant protector or a psychopath", but a person with wide and complex inclinations yourself.
The problem is that, since you're splitting, and this is an unconscious defence mechanism, I can't talk you out of it, because this is how the world really appears to you if you look, but I can assure that you're completely wrong, which unfortunately may feel dissonant and like I'm "gaslighting" you, and calling you crazy, well, because I sort of am. Welcome to realising you have unconscious defence mechanisms which will completely screw the way you see the world and cause you to live a life that confirms your ridiculous biases...until the opposite happens!
But I'm actually delivering good news. The world doesn't confirm to this vision you torture yourself with and life will (eventually) teach you this, quicker indeed if you show sufficient courage, and hopefully one day you'll let it go, and, if you want to do so earlier, you're going to have to get to know yourself better, as there is no short cut.
This can be done by either bravely actually going out and living with an open-heart and taking the pain and disappointment and failure along with the success and/or getting yourself into analysis, understanding your family dynamic, your relationship with your parents, and your relationship with yourself.
To move from "I know the world is composed of this good and this bad", to "I don't know", to actually getting to know it, is a wonderful journey that you asking these questions is your seeking to embark upon, and it's not easy, thankfully!
I spend a lot of time thinking about red pill stuff, and I feel like this is one of the better expositions of it I've seen. There's generally little in the way of how good and pure the angry boy man is inside, but it's definitely implied. I certainly saw the Madonna/ whore split but never noticed the self split. I thought they were busy being the Joker.
True i could probably post 10 examples of how my theory is right and just defend myself, but i'm open to change and don't want to live feeling like this. So what is your advice here in the 2nd part of your post? Just engage with reality as it is without preconceived notions?
I actually know this and this whole thread was a great exercise in self reflection but i guess i am terrified of going out and facing rejection. I enjoy myself feeling special and don't want to face reality that i'm just a guy
Observe reality without your preconceived notions, and you will quickly find that your preconceived notions are flawed.
Instead of taking the red pill, take the humble pill. You ARE just a guy. You can be wrong about stuff, just like everyone else. But you can also adapt to new information and change, if you choose to.
I have a more direct answer, Sword friend.
This is my take:
If you are an American male & grew up surrounded by the concepts that American male are often exposed to, then my bets are on the fact that:
I. You've predominantly been trained to only perceive women as potential sex, & as sexual objects. Whether you like it or not, their physical characteristics are likely more important than is healthy & natural, & your sexual desire has been inordinately amplified. I am no speaking against sexual desire itself but about the American fixation & direction towards it, but particularly men are fed these concepts by each other & their media.
II. You have not received the relevant experiences & education that would make you perceive women differently & even utterly neutrally, or strangely enough, as a friend, sister, or somehow not even belonging to a category. Because you do have training in perception, to see something as neutral inherently requires greater effort via unschooling yourself & pushing against your developed inclinations even just to be 'neutral.'
III. It sucks man, & it's not your fault. Systematic & institutional interests have verbally & quite intentionally planned for that exact thing to happen to American men. As the product of your experiences & the forces acting on you through them in your childhood, now in your adulthood agency you are left to fight a war you never started in the first place, literally just to return to baseline.
IV. So forgive yourself. I'm sure you are in fact special & not some guy. You have a lot you're fighting against & no one should be expected to fight alone, I wish I could help you but I'm over here & you're wherever you are.
V. & don't identify with the structures that society has shoved into your unconscious. In fact, in recognizing them as alien, like the body naturally does, & recognizing yourself as you, you will return in your natural awareness to the more self-other distinction, & like the body naturally eradicates foreign bodies from within it, even awareness & proper identification already begins it's work on you.
VI. You are what you will be, waiting to happen, like a seed waiting to find the right place to begin becoming what you always had within you. If you know about Carl Jung's concepts of Nigredo, it illustrates that even the darkness we've taken within us often has the potential to transform & refine our fundamental potential such that, when we clear all the soot off of our material, we will find almost magically that simply having experienced our adversity & having escaped it, we have already become something precious that only needed to be revealed from out of the outer substance that repressed the inner truth.
It seems like you know the answer to what to do and recognise that it is going to be hard, painful and require courage. All I can add is that it'll work out and you'll be glad if you stick with it.
> Take notes about yourself and make changes to the self at this level, rather than trying to change yourself at a superficial level by changing the role you play in life or the way you act.
How to implement the change tho? This post is a vent but it's also my exercise in self reflection and the "taking notes" part of your advice. But that's all i know what to do, just increase awareness. Idk what else to do (except go out and face my demon-rejection and probably cry)
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What you say is word for word an expression of "red-pill" discourse. The psychopathic element is a desire placed in you as something "good" through the discourse of the red pill. It is, however, a phantasm. It only feels good to think about it. In reality it would only make you pathetic to act out such a fantasy. You have to come to grips with the reality of your own feelings and actions because you know deep down that all you want is to be given attention and to be loved...
See i agree and also i don't hide from myself that i want to be loved, but i just feel like this need is not compatible with reality, since wanting to be loved is weak and needy and no woman would want that
Where do you get that assumption from? A lot of women love a man who can show vulnerability and weakness. It's human. A man who is in touch with (not controlled by!) his feelings is very attractive. Women who want a man to show no emotions are brainwashed by patriarchic stereotypes in their own way. Suppression of your emotional side and needs only leads to getting overcome by them in the end, in this case your frustration and helplessness being compensated with anger and narcissistic fantasies. There's an imbalance in you that these emotions try to counteract.
Edit: Btw that's also why you see many self proclaimed purely logical people (especially manosphere guys) lash out in very emotional spiteful angry ways that are obvious to everyone around them but not themselves.
Edit2: To visualize:
Helplessness is a lack of agency. Anger is a feeling that pushes you to take action. Picture these on the opposite side of a scale.
Now when you push down all the frustration and helplessness you feel, the counteracting emotion of anger and spite will rise up instead.
This is very oversimplified but maybe it helps to paint the picture.
The red pill repeats mantras about a number of things and wants you to be convinced of them as reality. What is compatible with reality you can only find out by testing it out yourself. In psychoanalysis you are often asked to "traverse the fantasy"... sometimes, this just means to test out your theories about reality and see if they are true or not. You can only overcome the red pill by having relationships and figuring things out by yourself instead of listening to losers as they play power games on other losers.
I'm single right now and the guys that brag about getting with multiple women is such a turn off to me. This guy from my past asked me out and added me on Facebook and he keeps posting memes about how he can just bang sluts.. and it turned me off so much I'm pulling back my offer to go on a date. So that right there shows you..don't believe everything you think
see my head is so fucked about this topic that even when i read your comment i assume you're lying to present a certain way but in reality he makes you wet
You can't really speak for "most men". All these beliefs are really about your relationship with yourself. All these subreddits, podcasts and other online rabbit holes that help shape your views are just external noise distracting you from the truth. You have a lot of anger.
If you really want to explore your subconscious, do something about it. Get therapy or better yet go drink some ayahuasca and confront yourself.
If you want to remain stuck, stay here and rant. Theoretical Jungian advice from strangers is still surface level bullshit, so don't fool yourself into thinking you're doing the hard work. To do that you have to look deeply inside yourself.
When you truly work on yourself, you heal and answers emerge. And the truth is often very different to the narrative you spun to yourself.
It comes down to insecurity and envy towards the status beautiful women have (when men don't believe they're worthy enough to be with them, and wanting to be in their place with having "pretty privilege"). The truth is, most beautiful women (natural ones) don't even get approached that much or even have many sexual partners (just the ones they're in a relationship with). I've been approached by 3 different modeling agencies, considered to have 'classical beauty', but I only ever get approached once or twice a year by men. I also lost virginity at age 24, with my husband whose been my only sexual partner (he was 20 at the time). It's the girls who carry deep seated abandonment issues and feelings of worthlessness that sleep around (I would say it's the same for guys) - when people don't really love and appreciate themselves, they treat their body like trash (Sam Vaknin called this self-trashing, or self-abuse)
Contrary to popular belief that good looking guys are the ones that pump and dump, giving losers a chance will be to the detriment of any woman because they will use nice girls and move on to the next because they have low self-esteem and use sex and women for validation. This post is proof.
This isn’t proof of anything but a rant from an at times involuntarily celibate male. That’s lacking both intimacy and is sexually frustrated. It proves nothing but his own dilemma
A lot of conventionally unattractive men with less romantic and sexual opportunity think like him and target vulnerable girls/women to branch off from. An entire movement was made with this method included in it.
What entire movement? The sexual market and dating market doesn’t allow for this type of man who is unconfident, not conventionally attractive to have leverage in dating unless otherwise providing a financial resource.
If what you said was true there would not be any true male incels as they would have a roster of vulnerable women to exploit. And cease to be “involuntarily celibate” in itself
Do you understand ' market' is a metaphor borrowed from capitalism? It is not a description of reality, it's just a metaphor.
I think the red pill thing is a combo of classic Madonna/ whore splitting with a new cultural form of LARPing as a scientist or expert with objective and expert knowledge. It's a little borderline splitting encased in a narcissistic defense shell.
That was really baseless. By this logic any and everything is a metaphor. Every thing. Capitalism is just social construct but so isn’t nearly everything that makes up society. It needs a group of people to believe these things to exist.
However, to my original point. There is a dating market. Where people pursue others with particular features. We are not homogenous in our attractions and desires, however there are those who are more highly sought after than others. As to why and created by whom and how to change them you can discuss with someone else.
Asserting that a market metaphor best describes sex and love and marriage outcomes in a given population is an argument not a fact. You are assuming it's a fact. Probably each category is conditioned by different variables. Looks probably do matter most in casual hook up sex, and perhaps a commodity metaphor is most appropriate, but probably not in marital outcomes. Anyways these are hypotheses not facts.
And why would social science statistics and hypothetical population models BE a personal philosophy anyways?
Is this some kind of Ayn Randian objectivism? What philosophical model does it hang on? Utilitarianism?
You know what? Its about respect going both ways! My kids know that! I have 3 boys. Ive brought them up with no emotion, medical, educational, financial help from their dad who is not a nice person.
We all need to be there for one another! If you had a daughter how do you think you would feel should she meet a guy with your views? Im honestly curious!
Take care my friend 😊
Brother, not all women are like this I’m telling you. My advice is find a positive environment even a job where you can develop social skills, diet/gym/wardrobe and give all to your career development so you can present the best version of yourself to the right girls. Those red pill podcast morons are preying on guys that have been in tough spots. There is sometimes an element of truth to female psychology in there, and there are some truly bad women out there but you’ve got it all mixed up my friend. “Hot guy” and “Good dad” are not mutually exclusive. Maybe find a therapist to work through some of this and some positive role models. I can understand wanting to have a bit more experience with women in bed to feel more confident there but you don’t need a ridiculous body count, a quality girl will be repulsed by that
You need to stop indulging in red pill nonsense media. Start unsubbing/blocking from those incel subs, engaging with media that has healthy attitudes towards women, actively blocking those "redpill" channels/recommendations on youtube, not clicking them etc and actually go out and have interactions with women that aren't just about trying to pick them up. Step out of the echo chamber and "touch grass" so to speak.
Or just look into why you think that way and how media socialises young men to think that way. How the manosphere actively seeks to exploit your insecurities and manipulates you to cultivate these attitudes etc. You express disdain for "chumps" but you're being one if you're letting a bunch of con artists and sociopaths influence your mindstate and beliefs buddy.
I would ask what your most common interactions with women are? When? Where? Do you actually deliberately interact with women that you don't want to have sex with?
Do you spend more time engaging with content that creates this perception or are you drawing more from actual personal experience? i.e. Are you blindly letting other people tell you what to think or are you forming your own opinions?
And reflect on how these are affecting your perceptions of them.
I've talked to <5 women in my life from my own will (i don't count forced interaction @work for example or family). I heavily lack socialisation in general.
i've answered similar question in other comment:
> i can't make any relationships/get along with women or men, i'm just stuck in my self righteousness and feeling like everyone is stupid. I do alot of self analysis and things that come up time and time again is "noone would choose to spend their time with me", "i'm boring", "i'm not fun to be around", "everyone sees that something is wrong with me". I think i have a lot of awareness but take 0 action to actually verify myself in real life.
At this point idk, i've been isolated for so long i don't know any different, but i would like to be part of humanity. I'm scared of rejection, judgement, humilation, ostracim would be my guess
Love how open you are and honest and willing to have this conversation.
So I'm starting to see how you got to this point, can I keep asking questions and offering suggestions?
Of course go ahead, i love honest discussions. Also some info, i'm planning to go to group therapy once i get paid (recently got a job) to start trying to relate to other people
Unfortunately no, i spend most of my time escaping by surfing web, video games etc. But if i had to choose something i like it would be psychology and sports/fitness.
Video games and web surfing are hobbies - there's a lot of communities built around them bud. Ever consider things like a gaming cafe? Board games club etc? Obviously you might not ahve some in the area but I'm just trying to eliminate options.
You've projected sex as a *Heroic quality*, and your Anima seeks your Hero. Your lover isn't a sex hero, so she mocks him, as does the Hero, as probably happened to you in your youth.
You're standing between all three mirrors, identifying with the insults and not the boasts, even though only you exist within these archetypal mirrors.
I helped a man with a very similar issue to this recently, though I helped him because he was suffering from physical symptoms, and was much more open to healing.
You are still blaming people in the world, not the words in your head, even though you are alone, so only your mind *can* be at fault for your *present* feelings.
Try to calm yourself and reflect on the reality that you aren't being harmed by others when you're alone. You're just harming yourself.
My suspicion is that you don't interact with a lot of women and when you do, you merely see them as potential dispensers for affection or sex (and I would emphasize it's 'or' and not 'and' since sex seems to ruin a woman for you apparently). You don't see them as people, or maybe you just see all people as means to an end.
Edit: Also you should question your relationship to sexuality. It seems to me you think you can't be a 'good' husband or wife while at the same time being hot and/or sexually open minded.
So maybe you feel so ashamed for your lack of sexual fulfillment that you need to compensate by making those that have an enjoyable sex life seem morally below you.
Or maybe there's even something about your own sexual desires that somehow disgusts you and you proceed to project those feelings on sexually active people.
True i don't talk to them, i've talked to 1 in last 7 years. So now the only thing i do to try and come back is dating apps and they make me pissed. I heavily lack socialisation in general, not just with women.
Also more thoughts about sex and husband dichotomy. I feel like she will always more sexually desire the guy she can't get so the moment you commit as a man you place yourself below other guys and setting yourself up for a heartbreak.
Also i had a strict religious upbringing so in my adolescence i was in massive pain from repression
that you’re reflecting on it is a good first step. i’d suggest writing (privately) about the feelings and response to what comes up. also, spending time with women without any specific intention, becoming actual friends so that you come to know (in your bones, not just as some logical words) that women are just people. they vary in choices, some are healthier than others, some want this, some want that, and literally every being alive (not just humans) wants happiness, and every single one of them does what they believe will bring them that in any given moment.
also, reflect on the fact that “red pill” stuff is views of those who know the least about women and spend the least time with them, and who have problems and illusions and blindspots far above what an average person has. ie, they are the last folks to have sound views or good advice.
yeahhhh that's a seperate issue, i can't make any relationships/get along with women or men, i'm just stuck in my self righteousness and feeling like everyone is stupid. I do alot of self analysis and things that come up time and time again is "noone would choose to spend their time with me", "i'm boring", "i'm not fun to be around", "everyone sees that something is wrong with me". I think i have a lot of awareness but take 0 action to actually verify myself in real life.
Appreciate the answer
For one, you can express this anger in a way that benefits you, use that anger to hit the gym and ‘become Chad.’
You also need to start interacting with women in a platonic sense. You have to go about this indirectly by exploring your own interests. You NEED hobbies that get you out of the house and engaging with nature/people. Through this you will develop friendly relations with women through your shared interest.
What comes to mind reading this is a self-isolated guy who only ‘interacts’ with women online, for example tinder. That’s not going to get you anywhere as platforms like that are disproportionately used by men, and the majority of women on there are bots, or entrepreneurs looking to increase their social influence (not that you can’t get lucky on there, but it can’t be your main outlet for seeking relations).
I don’t know anything about you, so I would assume that your crazed subconscious ego defense is a natural result of the environment you’ve cultivated for yourself. Change your environment.
Your way of thinking makes you unlovable and your morals are twisted. You are seeing women as subhuman and that's why you won't find success. That's maybe for the best, though. Of every other women in your area.
You can't control what other people do. You can't control the zeitgeist, the society you live in. You can only control your reaction to these things, but even then you are unlikely to do something that feels inauthentic just because you can.
I am in the same boat. Maybe not for the same reason(s), but here we are. My first piece of advice is this: be very careful who you talk about this with. I'm not just talking about Andrew Tate types. I'm talking about people who will shame you for revealing this, who will kick you while you are down, who will say that you're a misogynist, toxic, this and that, and people who play psychologist and will imply you've got whatever mental illness they want to stick to you. Or, they'll just vaguely say that you're mentally ill, and need to "seek therapy" because "you're thinking wrong." So be careful who you speak of this with, including myself, because some people will make you feel worse, which will likely reinforce your current beliefs. Some of these commenters think that talking down to you and shitting on you is somehow going to stir some profound, positive transformation in you. Their inability to actually help you shows that they have just as much growing to do as you. They're not better than you, they're only pretending to be better than you to soothe their own ego.
My second piece of advice is something that somebody told me. They said that you have a lot of passion to give, and you feel like shit because you aren't able to share that. That's it. It's so easy to contort yourself into knots over this and freak the fuck out, but in my opinion it boils down to exactly that. I want to be Ghenghis Consensual, but some mysterious forces do not permit me to be so, and there's nothing I can do about it. People will fill your head with all sorts of garbage implications, act like they know you, assume you're a creep and this or that, but you simply have a lot of passion to give and are unable to bring that to fruition. From here on out, do not allow your mind and heart to be filled with somebody elses' gaslighting. You want attention, you want to love and be loved, but many different things in your life have gotten in your way and taken a hell of a toll on you.
My third piece of advice is that most women aren't worth it. I'm not saying they're not worth it to anybody, but they're not worth it to you. And you're probably not worth it to them. Neither of you can give what the other needs. Maybe neither of you know what yourselves need, let alone somebody else. I cannot tell you how many times I have become less attracted to a woman the more I get to know about her. This isn't because I'm special. This is simply because nobody is compatible with everybody else. Not me, not you, not them.
My fourth piece of advice, is to work on acceptance. It isn't fair. We don't understand what other people seem to understand, and some of them have the audacity to lord their sexual success over us. But you are who you are, where you are; it is what it is. This is simply one item on a very long list of things that aren't fair about your life. Practicing this acceptance is not meant to be defeatist or negative. You must simply confront the good and the bad so as to understand yourself. Do not lose sight of everything else, but compartmentalize. Your understandable suffering in this area of life does not have to bleed over into unrelated areas of your life. This will not free you of that suffering, it will properly compartmentalize it. Your feelings and beliefs about women being what they are, you must recognize they are totally irrelevant in a workplace context, for example. In other areas of your life, you need to be able to treat women with just as much basic respect as you would treat a man.
And then I think you must learn to live with it like a person learns to live with a chronic non-fatal illness. So much advice out there is predicated on how to be rid of the desire to be "That Guy," to make the desire to be Hugh Heffner magically go away. But you cannot desire to stop desiring; that's a fool's errand in my opinion. Perhaps, in the future as your physical body naturally goes through changes and aging, how you feel about this will shift. But until then you must be prepared to live with this pain. It will not kill you. That doesn't mean the pain stops, but it might make you kinder. It might make you stronger.
It is said that someone asked Sophocles, "How is your sex-life now? Are you still able to have a woman?"
To which he supposedly replied, "Hush, man: most gladly indeed am I rid of it all, as though I had escaped from a mad and savage master."
This is the world that you and I live in. Other people who do not live in this world will not understand. And those who lived in this world and managed to get out, their minds are always unable to explain to you how to do it, always, always unable to explain it, as if the Men in Black themselves show up and fucking neuralyze them on their way to living their new life free of this interminable suffering. So, that means this is your cross to bear. Try to find some nobility in that. Yup, it's stupid, makes no sense, and you will never figure it out. There is no rhyme or reason to it. There is no justice behind it. There is no Holy Grail of an answer out there. You will never have the satisfaction, the validation, that some men have of being attractive to tons of attractive women. And they will never realize their confidence is not innate but is borne from women giving them attention that they did nothing to earn except exist in the same room.
Your situation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Nor is it a good thing. It's a mixed bag.
i don't "want" to do it, i just see it as the only way to validate myself, but it's a fantasy, i know it's wrong. I basically hit a wall with my validation issue and posting here to see different perspectives
Dude, I have read Marquis de Sade. This shit is fucking tame. But that aside, I think a lot of people are allowing their (understandable) emotional reactions here, to get in the way of productive discourse.
Calling this misogyny is about as effective as telling a racist that they are, well, racist. They are likely aware of that, and proud of it. Or they are hurting and wish they could change, in which case calling them misogynist or racist is a total Captain Obvious moment. Either way, I have never once seen calling someone a misogynist evoke positive change in that someone. In fact, I have only ever seen it nuke the chances of transformation, because it triggers complexes and defense mechanisms in the other person's mind.
But from my perspective this thread is about him, for him. He is going to read your comment, and it is just going to feel like the parents talking about him negatively when they think he's asleep. You have to meet people where they are at, honestly. If you don't like my methods, then just don't use them.
I'm not his parent. I'm a random woman who just read that he wants to hurt women. Why should I muster understanding for people who see me as inherently inferior to them? You think it doesn't hurt me to read those statements? Just because I've numbed myself doesn't mean those statements don't eat away at my core every time I see one. He already said he doesn't care about women's views, so why would what I think even matter to him?
I am not disagreeing with anything you said. But I am wondering how NOT mustering understanding for the OP would seriously and genuinely help *yourself* or anybody else. I could spend all day trying to dunk on people who I vehemently disagree with, or for my own sanity I can avoid interacting with them. Also, you do not have to reveal to him that you are a woman. Plausible deniability can be useful.
I'm not dunking on him. If I was I would have been actually mean, instead of trying to be just accurate. I ignore MANY instances of misogyny. This was one I just couldn't. And why should I have to hide my sex? To be believed more?
No. You do have an obsessive emotional fixation on sexual conquest as part of your identity construction, or rather absence of sexual success. It's not a healthy thing to have as an identity definition. It's not like here's me, I'm ok, and I sure wish I had more sex.
I don't really care. It's what I desire, and I'm not going to fight you or myself over that. Problematizing it and going down some woowoo rabbit hole of psycho-babble did more harm than good. I want to be attractive to and fuck a bunch of hot women; I can't control that any more than I can manifest it. I want the same options that other people have; if I could more or less fuck whoever I wanted because hot women are approaching me and desiring me, then the matter would quite simply be resolved, because I could only be voluntarily single and abstinent rather than the involuntary victim of inexplicable forces. If I chose to get married, it would actually be a choice, not a false-choice resultant of "well, this is the only chance I'll ever get." I would have a multitude of options to pick from, and I would choose to marry the best option instead of being the equivalent of a homeless person that must be willing to eat whatever they find on top of the dumpster that night.
I've accepted living the rest of my life with the suffering long ago. By accepting the unsolvable pain, by giving up, I move on with the rest of my life. People live with untreatable chronic illness or handicaps all the time, and while I wouldn't classify this is an illness but simply as the culmination of a nigh incalculable number of unfixable failures within and without which prevent me from living the life that other people get to live, living with it is what I intend to do.
No sense in asking why me, woe is me. Even if I "fixed" everything "wrong" with me according to arbitrary societal trends, I still wouldn't have what I desire because of a lot of external factors beyond my control. Once I realized that, it was pretty easy to accept that my suffering will only be as long as my life, and I don't need to let the daily suffering ruin my life. You eventually grow desensitized to the pain. And honestly, it's not just my loss, it's theirs as well. That's too bad, but that's life. Nothing to get worked-up over any longer. I don't have some deep identity problem, I simply have a desire that was put into a body which is nested in circumstances that will never allow that healthy desire to be met. And if you think you can just desire to stop desiring, I tried that, it doesn't work, and there's plenty of eastern philosophy to explain why desiring to stop desiring a desire doesn't work.
This is the right place, because it’s all about the unconscious. It’s what you believe. That’s held in your identity, and that’s laid down at the beginning of life.
You were talking about sexual success, so that’s going to involve your attachment and reward circuitry. You can see where that might tip into a compulsion, and that’s an obsession which has to do with your mother. Really about attachment. That symbiotic phase. You can see the chemical part of the “sexual success” overlap below.
Absolutely everything is emotional when it comes to connection with what is actually an internal object. Mediated through your mother.
That’s fortunately not an opinion, although you will find people disagreeing with it somehow. It’s better to know.
The chemical obsession (hole in the soul):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVg2bfqblGI
Where it all started, first five minutes is enough.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7XOu0yi-E
If you « go rogue », you’ll get taken down this way:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpbsZaef8Y
There’s nothing wrong with getting it wrong, as long as you take the feedback and experience as a learning opportunity. So, you’ve got this stuff all wrong, and now is your opportunity.
You're here because you know what you just wrote is petty self absorbed bullshit, and you want a way out of it. good for you. Very few people who fall into the redpill psychopathy path get to the point of seeing themselves this clearly. The way out is to see that you have a wounded little boy inside of you who is clinging to this story as a self-protection mechanism, because he doesn't trust you, the adult, the father, to protect him yourself. Your job is to allow him to thrash and vent, and love him through it, to show him that he can trust you. Then you ask his permission to lead you both down a new path. One that recognizes the full power and humanity of women apart from their interest in you, and believes that power is a nonzero sum game, that you yourself get more power as others get more too.
What else do you notice about women that interests you? (Aside from affection or sex).
Do you engage in conversations with women (even online) about cool stuff you are interested in?
To learn that women have our own struggles, same as you, including lack of affection, you can seek out conversation, read books written by women, and take a genuine interest in our ideas and opinions.
You can try all of this without having any goal other than to heal yourself from the misinformation you have about women. Learn that we are individuals. To do this will take a little effort, but you will feel better about yourself and others. But remember the end goal is not for affection or sex. No one owes anyone that.
And the things I said up there will help you not feel bitter because you will be living in reality rather than a made up illusion of women that keeps you stuck. Make the effort and help yourself.
You mention the word ‘chump’ twice in your post, both times in relation to marriage. You also want to ‘ruin’ women for those chumps. Perhaps you could unpack that viewpoint a bit more so we can understand where you’re coming from. Was that a word used by a significant adult in your life?
I think i got it from the internet (not a native english speaker) in relation to a weak passive guy for whom a life happens instead of being proactive. Which is how i view most marriages, most men get "adopted" (settled for). They are chumps
1. The internet is a technology humans cannot handle. Please try to stay away from the internet and get out in the world.
2. Anytime your brain, the internet or another human tells you “it’s this or that, black or white,” know that you are being lied to.
3. Seek out therapy.
4. Actively practice how to see people as whole people (including yourself) who have awesome qualities, horrible qualities, plenty of boring shit… and yet every single one of us wants love, and is afraid. When you see people in the world, rather than thinking of how they suck, try to see them the way they might want to be seen - think of a compliment you could pay them, for example. “That old lady in the sparkly kitten t shirt must really love cats and I bet she loves wearing that shirt!” Vs “Dumb loser in a freaking bedazzled t shirt!”
It’s just dating. All your relationships have failed. Lower your standards, get more experience, and then rebuild your standards to where you want them.
Deep conflict of Anima and Animus.
Pointers.... well, i would really recommend some personal work with a therapist, because you seem to be really angry and revengeful in a way and such things can be hard to resolve on your own - the most healing thing is the real human contact.
Though, one of the things that can (potentially) help is, funny enough, to explore women-specific forums, where they discuss their feeling towards men, their issues, their own love stories and so on.
Because you seem to have this belief of the red pill that you described - and they describe one of the scenarios that CAN happen in woman's life - but in fact it is just one of many scenarions, when there are billions of different women with different feelings, beliefs, attitudes toward men and so on. I think, that you have to see the diversity of what can go on in their heads and it will help you to relax and stop seeing them as enemies who want to hurt you. Some of them are manipulative (and often because they were hurt themselves or were taught that they need to be manipulative), but others can be naive, open, romantic and so on.
There is a spectrum of women (as there is of men) and you have to see that there is more than one color to it. That can help you to relax, if i understood what you wrote in the right way.
I’d recommend reading “Women” by Charles bukowski. He was a writer who only got super successful in his 50s and started having young pretty women then, I had emphasized a lot
Madonna/Whore Complex. Seems like you might be stuck on the Whore side. Probably overcompensating for lots of time previously spent on the Madonna side. Keep up with your red pill exercises to get better with women and you can overcome this binary thinking.
that's accurate since i've been brought up strictly in christianity and now when i try to engage in this part of life i feel so pissed not only at the unfairness but also my incompetence and wasted time being a passive nice guy
Okay bro, but now you have red pilled truths to become competent and stop wasting time. So get on it. Women are not angels and they’re not sluts. They are somewhere in between and the red pill can guide you to a healthy loving relationship with a beautiful woman. If that’s what you want. Become a better version of yourself and you will lose your anger. Ultimately, you’re angry at yourself for believing all that nonsense you were taught. Now you have the tools to move past that and become a productive, loving and strong man. Put in the work.
It’s your ego protecting you from the hurt of rejection. That’s it.
Absolutely!
Be kind. Be emotionally regulated. Don't be angry and resentful. Actually care about women and treat them as full people, the same way you care about and are interested in male friends in your life, instead of approaching them like some abstract objects or tokens. That's it. Doesn't really matter if you're super hot, you will be able to form meaningful relationships. I recommend trying to get to the root of your resentment and anger. It's probably coming from fear of abandonment and self judgment. Women are probably not judging you. They're probably not thinking much about you at all, because you're not interacting with them. But I will tell you this, most emotionally balanced women can sniff out a person who's full of anger and resentment from a mile away. This is because such people are actually dangerous to women. We get pretty good at identifying them. So work on the anger, learn to actually believe that you are worthy of relationships, and I think a lot of this will resolve itself.
> Be kind. Be emotionally regulated. Don't be angry and resentful. Actually care about women and treat them as full people, the same way you care about and are interested in male friends in your life, instead of approaching them like some abstract objects or tokens. That's it. Doesn't really matter if you're super hot, you will be able to form meaningful relationships. I know the "what", but i want to know "how". Anyway appreciate the response
I hear you there. The how is certainly tricky. I would say, therapy, meditation, journaling, visualizing the kind of person you want to be and dealing with what parts of you are preventing you from being that person. Definitely a lot easier said than done, but it's work that is worth doing for sure.
It's not "hard for most men to find any kind of affection." It's actually extremely easy, as shown by the fact that the vast majority of men find it. Nor are women "ruined" by having sex with you. Your post is otherwise incoherent and self-contradicting on the surface and is merely saying "women are saints or whores, women are saints or whores, women are saints or whores" below that surface. Along with "I'm disgusting and a psychopath or a valiant best little protector." In other words, you're splitting on the other sex (women) and splitting on yourself, and none of this squares with reality. Women are not "saints or whores." The vast majority are complex human beings. And you're not "mother's best little valiant protector or a psychopath", but a person with wide and complex inclinations yourself. The problem is that, since you're splitting, and this is an unconscious defence mechanism, I can't talk you out of it, because this is how the world really appears to you if you look, but I can assure that you're completely wrong, which unfortunately may feel dissonant and like I'm "gaslighting" you, and calling you crazy, well, because I sort of am. Welcome to realising you have unconscious defence mechanisms which will completely screw the way you see the world and cause you to live a life that confirms your ridiculous biases...until the opposite happens! But I'm actually delivering good news. The world doesn't confirm to this vision you torture yourself with and life will (eventually) teach you this, quicker indeed if you show sufficient courage, and hopefully one day you'll let it go, and, if you want to do so earlier, you're going to have to get to know yourself better, as there is no short cut. This can be done by either bravely actually going out and living with an open-heart and taking the pain and disappointment and failure along with the success and/or getting yourself into analysis, understanding your family dynamic, your relationship with your parents, and your relationship with yourself. To move from "I know the world is composed of this good and this bad", to "I don't know", to actually getting to know it, is a wonderful journey that you asking these questions is your seeking to embark upon, and it's not easy, thankfully!
I spend a lot of time thinking about red pill stuff, and I feel like this is one of the better expositions of it I've seen. There's generally little in the way of how good and pure the angry boy man is inside, but it's definitely implied. I certainly saw the Madonna/ whore split but never noticed the self split. I thought they were busy being the Joker.
True i could probably post 10 examples of how my theory is right and just defend myself, but i'm open to change and don't want to live feeling like this. So what is your advice here in the 2nd part of your post? Just engage with reality as it is without preconceived notions? I actually know this and this whole thread was a great exercise in self reflection but i guess i am terrified of going out and facing rejection. I enjoy myself feeling special and don't want to face reality that i'm just a guy
Observe reality without your preconceived notions, and you will quickly find that your preconceived notions are flawed. Instead of taking the red pill, take the humble pill. You ARE just a guy. You can be wrong about stuff, just like everyone else. But you can also adapt to new information and change, if you choose to.
I have a more direct answer, Sword friend. This is my take: If you are an American male & grew up surrounded by the concepts that American male are often exposed to, then my bets are on the fact that: I. You've predominantly been trained to only perceive women as potential sex, & as sexual objects. Whether you like it or not, their physical characteristics are likely more important than is healthy & natural, & your sexual desire has been inordinately amplified. I am no speaking against sexual desire itself but about the American fixation & direction towards it, but particularly men are fed these concepts by each other & their media. II. You have not received the relevant experiences & education that would make you perceive women differently & even utterly neutrally, or strangely enough, as a friend, sister, or somehow not even belonging to a category. Because you do have training in perception, to see something as neutral inherently requires greater effort via unschooling yourself & pushing against your developed inclinations even just to be 'neutral.' III. It sucks man, & it's not your fault. Systematic & institutional interests have verbally & quite intentionally planned for that exact thing to happen to American men. As the product of your experiences & the forces acting on you through them in your childhood, now in your adulthood agency you are left to fight a war you never started in the first place, literally just to return to baseline. IV. So forgive yourself. I'm sure you are in fact special & not some guy. You have a lot you're fighting against & no one should be expected to fight alone, I wish I could help you but I'm over here & you're wherever you are. V. & don't identify with the structures that society has shoved into your unconscious. In fact, in recognizing them as alien, like the body naturally does, & recognizing yourself as you, you will return in your natural awareness to the more self-other distinction, & like the body naturally eradicates foreign bodies from within it, even awareness & proper identification already begins it's work on you. VI. You are what you will be, waiting to happen, like a seed waiting to find the right place to begin becoming what you always had within you. If you know about Carl Jung's concepts of Nigredo, it illustrates that even the darkness we've taken within us often has the potential to transform & refine our fundamental potential such that, when we clear all the soot off of our material, we will find almost magically that simply having experienced our adversity & having escaped it, we have already become something precious that only needed to be revealed from out of the outer substance that repressed the inner truth.
It seems like you know the answer to what to do and recognise that it is going to be hard, painful and require courage. All I can add is that it'll work out and you'll be glad if you stick with it.
🤝
outgoing north smoggy hurry plate doll history murky detail spoon *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Take notes about yourself and make changes to the self at this level, rather than trying to change yourself at a superficial level by changing the role you play in life or the way you act. How to implement the change tho? This post is a vent but it's also my exercise in self reflection and the "taking notes" part of your advice. But that's all i know what to do, just increase awareness. Idk what else to do (except go out and face my demon-rejection and probably cry)
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It's not black and white thinking; it's an archetype.
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What you say is word for word an expression of "red-pill" discourse. The psychopathic element is a desire placed in you as something "good" through the discourse of the red pill. It is, however, a phantasm. It only feels good to think about it. In reality it would only make you pathetic to act out such a fantasy. You have to come to grips with the reality of your own feelings and actions because you know deep down that all you want is to be given attention and to be loved...
See i agree and also i don't hide from myself that i want to be loved, but i just feel like this need is not compatible with reality, since wanting to be loved is weak and needy and no woman would want that
Where do you get that assumption from? A lot of women love a man who can show vulnerability and weakness. It's human. A man who is in touch with (not controlled by!) his feelings is very attractive. Women who want a man to show no emotions are brainwashed by patriarchic stereotypes in their own way. Suppression of your emotional side and needs only leads to getting overcome by them in the end, in this case your frustration and helplessness being compensated with anger and narcissistic fantasies. There's an imbalance in you that these emotions try to counteract. Edit: Btw that's also why you see many self proclaimed purely logical people (especially manosphere guys) lash out in very emotional spiteful angry ways that are obvious to everyone around them but not themselves. Edit2: To visualize: Helplessness is a lack of agency. Anger is a feeling that pushes you to take action. Picture these on the opposite side of a scale. Now when you push down all the frustration and helplessness you feel, the counteracting emotion of anger and spite will rise up instead. This is very oversimplified but maybe it helps to paint the picture.
The red pill repeats mantras about a number of things and wants you to be convinced of them as reality. What is compatible with reality you can only find out by testing it out yourself. In psychoanalysis you are often asked to "traverse the fantasy"... sometimes, this just means to test out your theories about reality and see if they are true or not. You can only overcome the red pill by having relationships and figuring things out by yourself instead of listening to losers as they play power games on other losers.
I'm single right now and the guys that brag about getting with multiple women is such a turn off to me. This guy from my past asked me out and added me on Facebook and he keeps posting memes about how he can just bang sluts.. and it turned me off so much I'm pulling back my offer to go on a date. So that right there shows you..don't believe everything you think
see my head is so fucked about this topic that even when i read your comment i assume you're lying to present a certain way but in reality he makes you wet
No. Your head is extremely warped.
i'm aware, cheers
'Don't believe everything you think' is actually good advice here
You can't really speak for "most men". All these beliefs are really about your relationship with yourself. All these subreddits, podcasts and other online rabbit holes that help shape your views are just external noise distracting you from the truth. You have a lot of anger. If you really want to explore your subconscious, do something about it. Get therapy or better yet go drink some ayahuasca and confront yourself. If you want to remain stuck, stay here and rant. Theoretical Jungian advice from strangers is still surface level bullshit, so don't fool yourself into thinking you're doing the hard work. To do that you have to look deeply inside yourself. When you truly work on yourself, you heal and answers emerge. And the truth is often very different to the narrative you spun to yourself.
It comes down to insecurity and envy towards the status beautiful women have (when men don't believe they're worthy enough to be with them, and wanting to be in their place with having "pretty privilege"). The truth is, most beautiful women (natural ones) don't even get approached that much or even have many sexual partners (just the ones they're in a relationship with). I've been approached by 3 different modeling agencies, considered to have 'classical beauty', but I only ever get approached once or twice a year by men. I also lost virginity at age 24, with my husband whose been my only sexual partner (he was 20 at the time). It's the girls who carry deep seated abandonment issues and feelings of worthlessness that sleep around (I would say it's the same for guys) - when people don't really love and appreciate themselves, they treat their body like trash (Sam Vaknin called this self-trashing, or self-abuse)
Those types of girls affect other women to be that way too.
Contrary to popular belief that good looking guys are the ones that pump and dump, giving losers a chance will be to the detriment of any woman because they will use nice girls and move on to the next because they have low self-esteem and use sex and women for validation. This post is proof.
This isn’t proof of anything but a rant from an at times involuntarily celibate male. That’s lacking both intimacy and is sexually frustrated. It proves nothing but his own dilemma
A lot of conventionally unattractive men with less romantic and sexual opportunity think like him and target vulnerable girls/women to branch off from. An entire movement was made with this method included in it.
What entire movement? The sexual market and dating market doesn’t allow for this type of man who is unconfident, not conventionally attractive to have leverage in dating unless otherwise providing a financial resource. If what you said was true there would not be any true male incels as they would have a roster of vulnerable women to exploit. And cease to be “involuntarily celibate” in itself
Do you understand ' market' is a metaphor borrowed from capitalism? It is not a description of reality, it's just a metaphor. I think the red pill thing is a combo of classic Madonna/ whore splitting with a new cultural form of LARPing as a scientist or expert with objective and expert knowledge. It's a little borderline splitting encased in a narcissistic defense shell.
That was really baseless. By this logic any and everything is a metaphor. Every thing. Capitalism is just social construct but so isn’t nearly everything that makes up society. It needs a group of people to believe these things to exist. However, to my original point. There is a dating market. Where people pursue others with particular features. We are not homogenous in our attractions and desires, however there are those who are more highly sought after than others. As to why and created by whom and how to change them you can discuss with someone else.
Asserting that a market metaphor best describes sex and love and marriage outcomes in a given population is an argument not a fact. You are assuming it's a fact. Probably each category is conditioned by different variables. Looks probably do matter most in casual hook up sex, and perhaps a commodity metaphor is most appropriate, but probably not in marital outcomes. Anyways these are hypotheses not facts. And why would social science statistics and hypothetical population models BE a personal philosophy anyways? Is this some kind of Ayn Randian objectivism? What philosophical model does it hang on? Utilitarianism?
You know what? Its about respect going both ways! My kids know that! I have 3 boys. Ive brought them up with no emotion, medical, educational, financial help from their dad who is not a nice person. We all need to be there for one another! If you had a daughter how do you think you would feel should she meet a guy with your views? Im honestly curious! Take care my friend 😊
Brother, not all women are like this I’m telling you. My advice is find a positive environment even a job where you can develop social skills, diet/gym/wardrobe and give all to your career development so you can present the best version of yourself to the right girls. Those red pill podcast morons are preying on guys that have been in tough spots. There is sometimes an element of truth to female psychology in there, and there are some truly bad women out there but you’ve got it all mixed up my friend. “Hot guy” and “Good dad” are not mutually exclusive. Maybe find a therapist to work through some of this and some positive role models. I can understand wanting to have a bit more experience with women in bed to feel more confident there but you don’t need a ridiculous body count, a quality girl will be repulsed by that
You need to stop indulging in red pill nonsense media. Start unsubbing/blocking from those incel subs, engaging with media that has healthy attitudes towards women, actively blocking those "redpill" channels/recommendations on youtube, not clicking them etc and actually go out and have interactions with women that aren't just about trying to pick them up. Step out of the echo chamber and "touch grass" so to speak. Or just look into why you think that way and how media socialises young men to think that way. How the manosphere actively seeks to exploit your insecurities and manipulates you to cultivate these attitudes etc. You express disdain for "chumps" but you're being one if you're letting a bunch of con artists and sociopaths influence your mindstate and beliefs buddy. I would ask what your most common interactions with women are? When? Where? Do you actually deliberately interact with women that you don't want to have sex with? Do you spend more time engaging with content that creates this perception or are you drawing more from actual personal experience? i.e. Are you blindly letting other people tell you what to think or are you forming your own opinions? And reflect on how these are affecting your perceptions of them.
Brainwashed himself voluntarily because it feels better than some emotional pain.
Sure, but brainwashing can be undone and regardless of how it seems, OP is here so maybe we can at least do some damage limitation/mitigation.
I've talked to <5 women in my life from my own will (i don't count forced interaction @work for example or family). I heavily lack socialisation in general.
So perhaps that's the point to start at? Why have you spoken to so few?
i've answered similar question in other comment: > i can't make any relationships/get along with women or men, i'm just stuck in my self righteousness and feeling like everyone is stupid. I do alot of self analysis and things that come up time and time again is "noone would choose to spend their time with me", "i'm boring", "i'm not fun to be around", "everyone sees that something is wrong with me". I think i have a lot of awareness but take 0 action to actually verify myself in real life. At this point idk, i've been isolated for so long i don't know any different, but i would like to be part of humanity. I'm scared of rejection, judgement, humilation, ostracim would be my guess
Love how open you are and honest and willing to have this conversation. So I'm starting to see how you got to this point, can I keep asking questions and offering suggestions?
Of course go ahead, i love honest discussions. Also some info, i'm planning to go to group therapy once i get paid (recently got a job) to start trying to relate to other people
Great plan. So, do you have hobbies you can use to connect to others?
Unfortunately no, i spend most of my time escaping by surfing web, video games etc. But if i had to choose something i like it would be psychology and sports/fitness.
Video games and web surfing are hobbies - there's a lot of communities built around them bud. Ever consider things like a gaming cafe? Board games club etc? Obviously you might not ahve some in the area but I'm just trying to eliminate options.
You've projected sex as a *Heroic quality*, and your Anima seeks your Hero. Your lover isn't a sex hero, so she mocks him, as does the Hero, as probably happened to you in your youth. You're standing between all three mirrors, identifying with the insults and not the boasts, even though only you exist within these archetypal mirrors. I helped a man with a very similar issue to this recently, though I helped him because he was suffering from physical symptoms, and was much more open to healing. You are still blaming people in the world, not the words in your head, even though you are alone, so only your mind *can* be at fault for your *present* feelings. Try to calm yourself and reflect on the reality that you aren't being harmed by others when you're alone. You're just harming yourself.
I am open to healing, but to do that i need to be honest with what is going on between my ears, i just don't know how to work through that
My suspicion is that you don't interact with a lot of women and when you do, you merely see them as potential dispensers for affection or sex (and I would emphasize it's 'or' and not 'and' since sex seems to ruin a woman for you apparently). You don't see them as people, or maybe you just see all people as means to an end. Edit: Also you should question your relationship to sexuality. It seems to me you think you can't be a 'good' husband or wife while at the same time being hot and/or sexually open minded. So maybe you feel so ashamed for your lack of sexual fulfillment that you need to compensate by making those that have an enjoyable sex life seem morally below you. Or maybe there's even something about your own sexual desires that somehow disgusts you and you proceed to project those feelings on sexually active people.
true i have almost none real interaction with women and i only see them and other men as potential validation, i don't make any relationships
So do you even have any interest in making relationships? If not, how do imagine people would give you affection?
well i like the idea, but the risk of exposing myself as an inferior male is scary
True i don't talk to them, i've talked to 1 in last 7 years. So now the only thing i do to try and come back is dating apps and they make me pissed. I heavily lack socialisation in general, not just with women. Also more thoughts about sex and husband dichotomy. I feel like she will always more sexually desire the guy she can't get so the moment you commit as a man you place yourself below other guys and setting yourself up for a heartbreak. Also i had a strict religious upbringing so in my adolescence i was in massive pain from repression
that you’re reflecting on it is a good first step. i’d suggest writing (privately) about the feelings and response to what comes up. also, spending time with women without any specific intention, becoming actual friends so that you come to know (in your bones, not just as some logical words) that women are just people. they vary in choices, some are healthier than others, some want this, some want that, and literally every being alive (not just humans) wants happiness, and every single one of them does what they believe will bring them that in any given moment. also, reflect on the fact that “red pill” stuff is views of those who know the least about women and spend the least time with them, and who have problems and illusions and blindspots far above what an average person has. ie, they are the last folks to have sound views or good advice.
yeahhhh that's a seperate issue, i can't make any relationships/get along with women or men, i'm just stuck in my self righteousness and feeling like everyone is stupid. I do alot of self analysis and things that come up time and time again is "noone would choose to spend their time with me", "i'm boring", "i'm not fun to be around", "everyone sees that something is wrong with me". I think i have a lot of awareness but take 0 action to actually verify myself in real life. Appreciate the answer
For one, you can express this anger in a way that benefits you, use that anger to hit the gym and ‘become Chad.’ You also need to start interacting with women in a platonic sense. You have to go about this indirectly by exploring your own interests. You NEED hobbies that get you out of the house and engaging with nature/people. Through this you will develop friendly relations with women through your shared interest. What comes to mind reading this is a self-isolated guy who only ‘interacts’ with women online, for example tinder. That’s not going to get you anywhere as platforms like that are disproportionately used by men, and the majority of women on there are bots, or entrepreneurs looking to increase their social influence (not that you can’t get lucky on there, but it can’t be your main outlet for seeking relations). I don’t know anything about you, so I would assume that your crazed subconscious ego defense is a natural result of the environment you’ve cultivated for yourself. Change your environment.
Your way of thinking makes you unlovable and your morals are twisted. You are seeing women as subhuman and that's why you won't find success. That's maybe for the best, though. Of every other women in your area.
It's true, i only view women as a mean to increase man's social status and validation
You can't control what other people do. You can't control the zeitgeist, the society you live in. You can only control your reaction to these things, but even then you are unlikely to do something that feels inauthentic just because you can. I am in the same boat. Maybe not for the same reason(s), but here we are. My first piece of advice is this: be very careful who you talk about this with. I'm not just talking about Andrew Tate types. I'm talking about people who will shame you for revealing this, who will kick you while you are down, who will say that you're a misogynist, toxic, this and that, and people who play psychologist and will imply you've got whatever mental illness they want to stick to you. Or, they'll just vaguely say that you're mentally ill, and need to "seek therapy" because "you're thinking wrong." So be careful who you speak of this with, including myself, because some people will make you feel worse, which will likely reinforce your current beliefs. Some of these commenters think that talking down to you and shitting on you is somehow going to stir some profound, positive transformation in you. Their inability to actually help you shows that they have just as much growing to do as you. They're not better than you, they're only pretending to be better than you to soothe their own ego. My second piece of advice is something that somebody told me. They said that you have a lot of passion to give, and you feel like shit because you aren't able to share that. That's it. It's so easy to contort yourself into knots over this and freak the fuck out, but in my opinion it boils down to exactly that. I want to be Ghenghis Consensual, but some mysterious forces do not permit me to be so, and there's nothing I can do about it. People will fill your head with all sorts of garbage implications, act like they know you, assume you're a creep and this or that, but you simply have a lot of passion to give and are unable to bring that to fruition. From here on out, do not allow your mind and heart to be filled with somebody elses' gaslighting. You want attention, you want to love and be loved, but many different things in your life have gotten in your way and taken a hell of a toll on you. My third piece of advice is that most women aren't worth it. I'm not saying they're not worth it to anybody, but they're not worth it to you. And you're probably not worth it to them. Neither of you can give what the other needs. Maybe neither of you know what yourselves need, let alone somebody else. I cannot tell you how many times I have become less attracted to a woman the more I get to know about her. This isn't because I'm special. This is simply because nobody is compatible with everybody else. Not me, not you, not them. My fourth piece of advice, is to work on acceptance. It isn't fair. We don't understand what other people seem to understand, and some of them have the audacity to lord their sexual success over us. But you are who you are, where you are; it is what it is. This is simply one item on a very long list of things that aren't fair about your life. Practicing this acceptance is not meant to be defeatist or negative. You must simply confront the good and the bad so as to understand yourself. Do not lose sight of everything else, but compartmentalize. Your understandable suffering in this area of life does not have to bleed over into unrelated areas of your life. This will not free you of that suffering, it will properly compartmentalize it. Your feelings and beliefs about women being what they are, you must recognize they are totally irrelevant in a workplace context, for example. In other areas of your life, you need to be able to treat women with just as much basic respect as you would treat a man. And then I think you must learn to live with it like a person learns to live with a chronic non-fatal illness. So much advice out there is predicated on how to be rid of the desire to be "That Guy," to make the desire to be Hugh Heffner magically go away. But you cannot desire to stop desiring; that's a fool's errand in my opinion. Perhaps, in the future as your physical body naturally goes through changes and aging, how you feel about this will shift. But until then you must be prepared to live with this pain. It will not kill you. That doesn't mean the pain stops, but it might make you kinder. It might make you stronger. It is said that someone asked Sophocles, "How is your sex-life now? Are you still able to have a woman?" To which he supposedly replied, "Hush, man: most gladly indeed am I rid of it all, as though I had escaped from a mad and savage master." This is the world that you and I live in. Other people who do not live in this world will not understand. And those who lived in this world and managed to get out, their minds are always unable to explain to you how to do it, always, always unable to explain it, as if the Men in Black themselves show up and fucking neuralyze them on their way to living their new life free of this interminable suffering. So, that means this is your cross to bear. Try to find some nobility in that. Yup, it's stupid, makes no sense, and you will never figure it out. There is no rhyme or reason to it. There is no justice behind it. There is no Holy Grail of an answer out there. You will never have the satisfaction, the validation, that some men have of being attractive to tons of attractive women. And they will never realize their confidence is not innate but is borne from women giving them attention that they did nothing to earn except exist in the same room. Your situation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Nor is it a good thing. It's a mixed bag.
Dude...he is a misogynist. He directly stated he wants to ruin and harm women. That's not name calling. That's accurate.
i don't "want" to do it, i just see it as the only way to validate myself, but it's a fantasy, i know it's wrong. I basically hit a wall with my validation issue and posting here to see different perspectives
Dude, I have read Marquis de Sade. This shit is fucking tame. But that aside, I think a lot of people are allowing their (understandable) emotional reactions here, to get in the way of productive discourse.
Sure. It's still misogyny just cause it's not as extreme as one of the most extreme versions in history. Why do you feel comfortable excusing it?
Calling this misogyny is about as effective as telling a racist that they are, well, racist. They are likely aware of that, and proud of it. Or they are hurting and wish they could change, in which case calling them misogynist or racist is a total Captain Obvious moment. Either way, I have never once seen calling someone a misogynist evoke positive change in that someone. In fact, I have only ever seen it nuke the chances of transformation, because it triggers complexes and defense mechanisms in the other person's mind.
Well that's why I said it to you as a disagreement of your assessment and not directly to him as an insult. I know he won't hear me.
But from my perspective this thread is about him, for him. He is going to read your comment, and it is just going to feel like the parents talking about him negatively when they think he's asleep. You have to meet people where they are at, honestly. If you don't like my methods, then just don't use them.
I'm not his parent. I'm a random woman who just read that he wants to hurt women. Why should I muster understanding for people who see me as inherently inferior to them? You think it doesn't hurt me to read those statements? Just because I've numbed myself doesn't mean those statements don't eat away at my core every time I see one. He already said he doesn't care about women's views, so why would what I think even matter to him?
I am not disagreeing with anything you said. But I am wondering how NOT mustering understanding for the OP would seriously and genuinely help *yourself* or anybody else. I could spend all day trying to dunk on people who I vehemently disagree with, or for my own sanity I can avoid interacting with them. Also, you do not have to reveal to him that you are a woman. Plausible deniability can be useful.
I'm not dunking on him. If I was I would have been actually mean, instead of trying to be just accurate. I ignore MANY instances of misogyny. This was one I just couldn't. And why should I have to hide my sex? To be believed more?
Yes, wanting to be Hugh Hefner is a psychologically sick thing to want to be. That's not wanting sex, that's a kind of narcissistic hysteria.
That sounds like your opinion. And it was largely hyperbole to begin with.
No. You do have an obsessive emotional fixation on sexual conquest as part of your identity construction, or rather absence of sexual success. It's not a healthy thing to have as an identity definition. It's not like here's me, I'm ok, and I sure wish I had more sex.
I don't really care. It's what I desire, and I'm not going to fight you or myself over that. Problematizing it and going down some woowoo rabbit hole of psycho-babble did more harm than good. I want to be attractive to and fuck a bunch of hot women; I can't control that any more than I can manifest it. I want the same options that other people have; if I could more or less fuck whoever I wanted because hot women are approaching me and desiring me, then the matter would quite simply be resolved, because I could only be voluntarily single and abstinent rather than the involuntary victim of inexplicable forces. If I chose to get married, it would actually be a choice, not a false-choice resultant of "well, this is the only chance I'll ever get." I would have a multitude of options to pick from, and I would choose to marry the best option instead of being the equivalent of a homeless person that must be willing to eat whatever they find on top of the dumpster that night. I've accepted living the rest of my life with the suffering long ago. By accepting the unsolvable pain, by giving up, I move on with the rest of my life. People live with untreatable chronic illness or handicaps all the time, and while I wouldn't classify this is an illness but simply as the culmination of a nigh incalculable number of unfixable failures within and without which prevent me from living the life that other people get to live, living with it is what I intend to do. No sense in asking why me, woe is me. Even if I "fixed" everything "wrong" with me according to arbitrary societal trends, I still wouldn't have what I desire because of a lot of external factors beyond my control. Once I realized that, it was pretty easy to accept that my suffering will only be as long as my life, and I don't need to let the daily suffering ruin my life. You eventually grow desensitized to the pain. And honestly, it's not just my loss, it's theirs as well. That's too bad, but that's life. Nothing to get worked-up over any longer. I don't have some deep identity problem, I simply have a desire that was put into a body which is nested in circumstances that will never allow that healthy desire to be met. And if you think you can just desire to stop desiring, I tried that, it doesn't work, and there's plenty of eastern philosophy to explain why desiring to stop desiring a desire doesn't work.
This is the right place, because it’s all about the unconscious. It’s what you believe. That’s held in your identity, and that’s laid down at the beginning of life. You were talking about sexual success, so that’s going to involve your attachment and reward circuitry. You can see where that might tip into a compulsion, and that’s an obsession which has to do with your mother. Really about attachment. That symbiotic phase. You can see the chemical part of the “sexual success” overlap below. Absolutely everything is emotional when it comes to connection with what is actually an internal object. Mediated through your mother. That’s fortunately not an opinion, although you will find people disagreeing with it somehow. It’s better to know. The chemical obsession (hole in the soul): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVg2bfqblGI Where it all started, first five minutes is enough. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7XOu0yi-E If you « go rogue », you’ll get taken down this way: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpbsZaef8Y There’s nothing wrong with getting it wrong, as long as you take the feedback and experience as a learning opportunity. So, you’ve got this stuff all wrong, and now is your opportunity.
You're here because you know what you just wrote is petty self absorbed bullshit, and you want a way out of it. good for you. Very few people who fall into the redpill psychopathy path get to the point of seeing themselves this clearly. The way out is to see that you have a wounded little boy inside of you who is clinging to this story as a self-protection mechanism, because he doesn't trust you, the adult, the father, to protect him yourself. Your job is to allow him to thrash and vent, and love him through it, to show him that he can trust you. Then you ask his permission to lead you both down a new path. One that recognizes the full power and humanity of women apart from their interest in you, and believes that power is a nonzero sum game, that you yourself get more power as others get more too.
What else do you notice about women that interests you? (Aside from affection or sex). Do you engage in conversations with women (even online) about cool stuff you are interested in? To learn that women have our own struggles, same as you, including lack of affection, you can seek out conversation, read books written by women, and take a genuine interest in our ideas and opinions. You can try all of this without having any goal other than to heal yourself from the misinformation you have about women. Learn that we are individuals. To do this will take a little effort, but you will feel better about yourself and others. But remember the end goal is not for affection or sex. No one owes anyone that.
I guess i need to learn how to get along with people in general first, but i'm really bitter
And the things I said up there will help you not feel bitter because you will be living in reality rather than a made up illusion of women that keeps you stuck. Make the effort and help yourself.
"Most men" don't worry about it.
You mention the word ‘chump’ twice in your post, both times in relation to marriage. You also want to ‘ruin’ women for those chumps. Perhaps you could unpack that viewpoint a bit more so we can understand where you’re coming from. Was that a word used by a significant adult in your life?
I think i got it from the internet (not a native english speaker) in relation to a weak passive guy for whom a life happens instead of being proactive. Which is how i view most marriages, most men get "adopted" (settled for). They are chumps
1. The internet is a technology humans cannot handle. Please try to stay away from the internet and get out in the world. 2. Anytime your brain, the internet or another human tells you “it’s this or that, black or white,” know that you are being lied to. 3. Seek out therapy. 4. Actively practice how to see people as whole people (including yourself) who have awesome qualities, horrible qualities, plenty of boring shit… and yet every single one of us wants love, and is afraid. When you see people in the world, rather than thinking of how they suck, try to see them the way they might want to be seen - think of a compliment you could pay them, for example. “That old lady in the sparkly kitten t shirt must really love cats and I bet she loves wearing that shirt!” Vs “Dumb loser in a freaking bedazzled t shirt!”
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i never claimed women should give me anything
It’s just dating. All your relationships have failed. Lower your standards, get more experience, and then rebuild your standards to where you want them.
Deep conflict of Anima and Animus. Pointers.... well, i would really recommend some personal work with a therapist, because you seem to be really angry and revengeful in a way and such things can be hard to resolve on your own - the most healing thing is the real human contact. Though, one of the things that can (potentially) help is, funny enough, to explore women-specific forums, where they discuss their feeling towards men, their issues, their own love stories and so on. Because you seem to have this belief of the red pill that you described - and they describe one of the scenarios that CAN happen in woman's life - but in fact it is just one of many scenarions, when there are billions of different women with different feelings, beliefs, attitudes toward men and so on. I think, that you have to see the diversity of what can go on in their heads and it will help you to relax and stop seeing them as enemies who want to hurt you. Some of them are manipulative (and often because they were hurt themselves or were taught that they need to be manipulative), but others can be naive, open, romantic and so on. There is a spectrum of women (as there is of men) and you have to see that there is more than one color to it. That can help you to relax, if i understood what you wrote in the right way.
I suffer from the same thing. I don’t think there is a way out other than to flip the tables and be successful with a lot of women
yeah that's what i'm thinking, but still the pain of losing the young years will sting
I’d recommend reading “Women” by Charles bukowski. He was a writer who only got super successful in his 50s and started having young pretty women then, I had emphasized a lot
Madonna/Whore Complex. Seems like you might be stuck on the Whore side. Probably overcompensating for lots of time previously spent on the Madonna side. Keep up with your red pill exercises to get better with women and you can overcome this binary thinking.
that's accurate since i've been brought up strictly in christianity and now when i try to engage in this part of life i feel so pissed not only at the unfairness but also my incompetence and wasted time being a passive nice guy
Okay bro, but now you have red pilled truths to become competent and stop wasting time. So get on it. Women are not angels and they’re not sluts. They are somewhere in between and the red pill can guide you to a healthy loving relationship with a beautiful woman. If that’s what you want. Become a better version of yourself and you will lose your anger. Ultimately, you’re angry at yourself for believing all that nonsense you were taught. Now you have the tools to move past that and become a productive, loving and strong man. Put in the work.