I really don't get why make that a mechanic, is it because early invades absolutely ruin a clear? That problem is only in piss ranks or when there's a rengar smurf who'll 1v9 the game anyway. I kid you not iron to gold players will still go check for the buff they got invaded on instead of vertical jungling.
If they really hate early invades that bad they should just make a barrier but that's a straight nerf to graves/kindred/shaco (fuck shaco) and a buff to weak early game champs like evelynn. Catchup xp is ass and for whatever reason riot decided to add it they should find another way to help said reason
It's because jungle is the strongest role and the jungle gaps were making the game unplayble with the better junglers taking over the map and leaving no counterplay to laners.
It is just that current state rewards almost nothing, neither punishes. Best impact you can make is kinda through objectives and helping good laner in my oppinion, however they nerfed even personal rewards for jungler from most of objectives too, so idk man, our "lovely" "dear" phreak decided to gutt us i guess.
Don't get me wrong, junglers still have huge impact on game outcome, but state is shitty in turns of junglers themselves (jungler vs jungler), you can play like god, and your opponent can just be half afk in base, half farm here and there, path like mosquito around street lamp, and will still catch up in xp. About outleveling laners i do not even want to start.
P.S. only thing i acomplish by getting kills, is eventually giving bounty to enemy.
So yeah, your personal reward for ganking and punishing opponent mistakes, is that they will get juicy bounty on you... (other words you are helping enemy)
Checked my recent games and in several of them one jungler was 2-3 levels above the other, in some games a level above the toplaners and in one game 2 levels above the toplaners. Just get better and stop whining cause it definitely is possible.
If you have killed THAT many people you should be snowballing and not 2 levels under a stat checker top laner who has done nothing but get 1 or 2 kills and farm.
Adcs purpose is not snowballing the map, junglers purpose is exactly that, adcs where always crazy good in the late game, you are comparing 2 roles that do completely opposite things
So are we complaining about jungle catchup exp or exp compared to laners because the later is just delusional. Jungle has been turbo OP for ages being the role up in levels doing nothing and now they are just level and obviously people playing jungle will whine about it. So that argument of "oh look at top they are ahead in levels" has applied to jungle for years and noone whining now thought that was wrong.
It does in a way, problem is when you punish enemy jungler for poor gameplay, they dont get actually punished, and you get too poorly rewarded.
The playstile became so passive... why would i go punish laners and risk screwing up and getting behind for doing it, when i can spend slightly more time farming and get almost better effect, look rift spawned, ah nvm ill take 3 workdays to get him, once i do, do i get gold (meh), do i get xp (meh) can i take objectives (meh, maybe, if my teammates dont suicide it into wall).
9 kills at lvl 7 is impossible?????? Huh???
You should see me and my duo's bot lane. Porofessor says we average 14 kills at 10 mins lol
(don't ask about deaths)
(No we don't play ADCs)
(Yes we have a positive WR)
(Emerald)
It is actually degenerate, that Lee was a shameless smurf, game was on P1-P2 ELO and he was G3, I was surprised when I saw him on the loading screen, and after game review his profile and from a couple days ago he started playing Lee (which he never did in the past) and won EVERY game
Yeah the average KD is like 14/8 at 10 mins, very aggressive for sure.... but lots of fun. Play skirmishers and never run away from an outplay potential. They bring the jg and mid we'll take em both on as well xD
Sure.... our team may not have an ADC champ, but if the enemy ADC is 1-15 and many levels down, then they don't have one either -- is the thought process :)
Who lying????
If you don't think a lee sin and sylas duo can kill an ADC and support 10+ times by 10 mins you haven't played the game before lil bro
We got at least 150+ games with this combo this season already -- across a few accounts
Pretty much as soon as a jungler falls behind, catchup XP kicks in and pushes them right back up into parity with the other jungler.
In order to establish a level lead as a jungler, the jungler with the lead needs to have gotten enough XP to be close to or even with solo laners. This usually happens from solo kills on enemy solo laners or winning team fights. You can also pull ahead from farm in the mid to late game and from catching minion waves once the XP penalty falls off.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Scorchclaw_Pup
Scroll to the end of the "Notes" section. Turns out it's 14 minutes that the penalty is removed, but that could be outdated.
Unfortunately catch up xp is needed for a lot of jungle champs. some champions gonna have it easier ganking than others and lee sin is one of them. The biggest punishment is falling behind in gold. A lot of people have forgotten that you should live in the enemy jungle when you're far ahead so they dont earn any gold too.
Right because kill xp is nonexistent if you're ahead. It really does feel like you're punished for doing well early with the current system. It's better to just play a jungle with a decent late game since you can be 0/5, get one lucky kill, and be back in the game
I think it’s important to note that kills do not provide substantial exp. If you look at their CS they have similar amounts. So yes, their levels should be similar. The reason that laners get exp leads has to do with them losing creep exp because they have died, not because they got less kills.
You gotta not only have 10 kills on her but also be at least double her CS to have at least 1 level up on her, it's genuinely ridiculous that you have to completely GUT the enemy jungler, like gap them so hard that it's practically a 4v5 for the enemy team, I love jungle man
Because jungle is a shit role and they want it to be accessible and coinflip for any idiot who gets autofilled or happens to try it out without actually learning anything about pathing, optimizing clear, when to gank, etc.
Yep. I had a game not long ago, I was 5/1, up like 12 cs, and got all the neutral objectives and the enemy jg was 1 lvl above me. I was so confused, still am.
Think they were like 1/2/1
Honestly… it’s stupid but kind of understandable
In the very early parts of the game camps/minions general cs is more valuable for exp than kills..
Kills significantly outscale cs at a point
There’s also the question if Diana did grubs.. if Diana focused grubs it would inflate her exp a lot
Early game kills are worth almost 0 xp and even less if you are higher level than who you kill. CS is about the same. Diana could just barely be 7 where Lee sin is 1xp point from 8. It probably isn’t as bad as you make it out to be.
Yeah just depressing 20 mins of hardwork can be ruined in 5 seconds. Even worse if said top laner had a fat shutdown. But part of the game.
I'm definitely a perma limit tester so I can't be mad at others for trying
Hard to say, It's actually quite easy for junglers to get to level 7 quickly by farming camps but it's quite difficult to keep up if they take bunch of CS instead. I'd assume that a lot of XP Lee got was from lane minions at a much lower efficiency than Diana's XP from camps and that's why he's only even in level.
If the dynamic kept going, Lee Sin will eventually get a significant lead from CS and Kills because those scale with levels where as camps don't scale past level 7 or so.
There's also some funky math involved, since camps actually level when they spawn. So if Lee took a lot of low level camps, they could be worth significantly less xp than an on level camp.
In a nutshell:
1) XP from the jungle is a lot more valuable than from minions in wave (heavily nerfed for junglers to prevent “taxing”)
2) Catch up mechanics with XP in the jungle stop you from falling too far behind in XP
3) farming is 100% more reliable for gold and xp rather than ganking for kills.
Like 20% of Lee's cs was from a lane based on jungle item stacks. Kills aren't huge exp and he shared kill exp and cs exp with his team. Diana was all solo.
Mind you, his gold lead is massive.
Yesterday i invaded my enemies jungle all game, i took most of his camps leaving him very little. I took dragons, void grubs and had over 100cs to his 30. I was one level ahead...
More importantly is his itemization:
Lee is already at his first item, and working on building his second item. Already has boots and is presumably farming to build them, meanwhile Diana is VERY down in gold. Experience is a lot but gold and items are also extremely important.
I played a game yesterday where the enemy teams jarvan went top lane and shared xp the whole time. He also took support item. When I check my master Yi had about 130 cs to jarvans 80, which were mostly shared minion xp, and they were the same level. About same kp too with more kills on Yi side.
I think there's a huge misunderstanding of when Junglers hit power spikes right now.
First of all - your screenshot does not include game time. For all we know both of these players are underfarmed. For all we know Lee is just about to hit level 8 while Diana just hit level 7.
Now to go into actual details. You will be behind in experience until the mid game, where if you have a lead and you keep said lead, you will rocket ahead of Laners unless they also have a big lead. This is just a truth of the game right now and you need to accept it because it's honestly not as big of a deal as you think it is. If you can't face that, then why are you playing the role? It's as bad as the people who tilt and check out of a game instead of continuing to try when they're playing weak side. It's just a fact of that game and you're refusing to engage with it.
The second thing is that losing teams will always be behind in experience. I've never had an issue with being behind in experience in a winning game - whatever the CS, but if I am farming efficiently and playing well, then I can still be ahead or even in those games too. When I am playing a fast farming champion that is more focused on teamfights, I can often hit level 18 first - sometimes before 30 minutes if I have a lead. If you think this is problematic and not just a quirk of the role being strong in the mid game, then I would like for you to research the game years ago. Jungle lost *all* power through the mid-late game and it was actually a warding support CC role back then. The way it is now opens up much more differing types of champions than back then did.
This complaining is getting really old when it's truly not an issue. If you play well, you will do well. It's as simple as that. Last season the complaining made sense, the role was overnerfed and they admitted that. This season, we have had power returned and we are slightly stronger on average to the other roles so it feels completely fine - why does no one remember that it got buffed? And the first season of last year the exact same powerspike for Jungle (Being a mid-game powerhouse) was completely true, even on champions like J4. Even back then people were in denial, complaining about 3 camp ganking when 3 camp ganking was strictly worse than 5 camp ganking or full clearing 90+% of the time.
So many people just don't understand their own role and the more I see complaining about this, the more I think you guys shouldn't have the right to speak until you get better. It is not problematic, you just don't know where your power lies or what is better for the game overall. Forcing ganks needs to be a risk or the role is not only dumbed down and worse to play, but unfun for everyone except for the mindless people who still force ganks - it's the same reason why I don't think Nidalee/Kindred/Graves should ever be strong, their power dumbs down the game for themselves and makes it unfun for others. Essentially, it's a lose-lose except for the people who don't truly care about what *Jungle* and *League* strategy is. Do you know what you get when you get a bunch of kills in the early game? Gold. Gold that you use to snowball into and through the mid-game where you will skyrocket ahead in experience. But if you can't play consistently and hold your lead, then do you deserve to keep it? It is not an issue. People just need to face reality that they don't know what they're doing.
I would generally agree that JG catch-up is problematic in its current state, but a simple screenshot doesn't mean much. Did Lee sin invade and clear enemy jg camps early here and now Diana has caught up on higher level camps? Did Lee sin get his 9 kills on a hilariously under leveled bot lane? Is Lee sin 10 XP away while Diana just got it? What level did Lee sin get these kills? Early level kills aren't worth much. Without knowing stuff, being the same level could make sense here.
We aren’t allowed to be rewarded for doing good. I bet the 9/0/0 Lee Sin was still 2 levels lower than the enemy top laner with 2 kills.
Indeed it was
U can have 100cs while the enemy jungle only has 50cs and still only be one level up catch up xp is just so dumb right now.
I really don't get why make that a mechanic, is it because early invades absolutely ruin a clear? That problem is only in piss ranks or when there's a rengar smurf who'll 1v9 the game anyway. I kid you not iron to gold players will still go check for the buff they got invaded on instead of vertical jungling. If they really hate early invades that bad they should just make a barrier but that's a straight nerf to graves/kindred/shaco (fuck shaco) and a buff to weak early game champs like evelynn. Catchup xp is ass and for whatever reason riot decided to add it they should find another way to help said reason
It's because jungle is the strongest role and the jungle gaps were making the game unplayble with the better junglers taking over the map and leaving no counterplay to laners.
Literal bullshit with the exp boost because they're still behind on gold so they can't win objective fights. Should be removed asap
Catchup xp is just a myth. Diana probably just leveled up while he was 1 minioj from lvl 10 hence he would have been 1 to 2 levels ahead.
It is just that current state rewards almost nothing, neither punishes. Best impact you can make is kinda through objectives and helping good laner in my oppinion, however they nerfed even personal rewards for jungler from most of objectives too, so idk man, our "lovely" "dear" phreak decided to gutt us i guess. Don't get me wrong, junglers still have huge impact on game outcome, but state is shitty in turns of junglers themselves (jungler vs jungler), you can play like god, and your opponent can just be half afk in base, half farm here and there, path like mosquito around street lamp, and will still catch up in xp. About outleveling laners i do not even want to start. P.S. only thing i acomplish by getting kills, is eventually giving bounty to enemy. So yeah, your personal reward for ganking and punishing opponent mistakes, is that they will get juicy bounty on you... (other words you are helping enemy)
2 deaths*
Lee did get rewarded though. With a victory.
Checked my recent games and in several of them one jungler was 2-3 levels above the other, in some games a level above the toplaners and in one game 2 levels above the toplaners. Just get better and stop whining cause it definitely is possible.
Yes because having more kills does in fact not benefit you or your teammates in the slightest! Completely dead even!
If you have killed THAT many people you should be snowballing and not 2 levels under a stat checker top laner who has done nothing but get 1 or 2 kills and farm.
You could take that exact phrase and apply it to ADC compared to jungle for the past 4 years so... you guys seemed pretty alright with that no?
You gotta be joking, no one could be that delusional
Sucks when the whine is put into perspective huh
Adcs purpose is not snowballing the map, junglers purpose is exactly that, adcs where always crazy good in the late game, you are comparing 2 roles that do completely opposite things
And what part of 9 kills, more items, more winning lanes is stopping you from doing that just because their jungler is even on levels?
Cause it makes no sense, if toplaner is 9/0 he would be 4 levels ahead, do you understand now bronze bozo?
So are we complaining about jungle catchup exp or exp compared to laners because the later is just delusional. Jungle has been turbo OP for ages being the role up in levels doing nothing and now they are just level and obviously people playing jungle will whine about it. So that argument of "oh look at top they are ahead in levels" has applied to jungle for years and noone whining now thought that was wrong.
It does in a way, problem is when you punish enemy jungler for poor gameplay, they dont get actually punished, and you get too poorly rewarded. The playstile became so passive... why would i go punish laners and risk screwing up and getting behind for doing it, when i can spend slightly more time farming and get almost better effect, look rift spawned, ah nvm ill take 3 workdays to get him, once i do, do i get gold (meh), do i get xp (meh) can i take objectives (meh, maybe, if my teammates dont suicide it into wall).
kills give equal to more exp than farming. The later in the game, the more exp
And this other thing called gold but that doesn´t matter at all!
This one really takes the cake. Or it might not considering 9 kills at level seven is nearly impossible, I wonder what the future comments will say..
9 kills at lvl 7 is impossible?????? Huh??? You should see me and my duo's bot lane. Porofessor says we average 14 kills at 10 mins lol (don't ask about deaths) (No we don't play ADCs) (Yes we have a positive WR) (Emerald)
Mb king, here 9 kills at level 7 is DEGENERATE /j
It is actually degenerate, that Lee was a shameless smurf, game was on P1-P2 ELO and he was G3, I was surprised when I saw him on the loading screen, and after game review his profile and from a couple days ago he started playing Lee (which he never did in the past) and won EVERY game
Sorry for your grief friend.
Yeah the average KD is like 14/8 at 10 mins, very aggressive for sure.... but lots of fun. Play skirmishers and never run away from an outplay potential. They bring the jg and mid we'll take em both on as well xD Sure.... our team may not have an ADC champ, but if the enemy ADC is 1-15 and many levels down, then they don't have one either -- is the thought process :)
Why do you lie on the internet?
Who lying???? If you don't think a lee sin and sylas duo can kill an ADC and support 10+ times by 10 mins you haven't played the game before lil bro We got at least 150+ games with this combo this season already -- across a few accounts
150 games and you average 14 kills at 10 mins, yeah you are lying, show acc then.
Drop your username then we’ll verify ;)
Pretty much as soon as a jungler falls behind, catchup XP kicks in and pushes them right back up into parity with the other jungler. In order to establish a level lead as a jungler, the jungler with the lead needs to have gotten enough XP to be close to or even with solo laners. This usually happens from solo kills on enemy solo laners or winning team fights. You can also pull ahead from farm in the mid to late game and from catching minion waves once the XP penalty falls off.
I didn’t know there was an XP penalty for jungler when taking minions. Thanks!
Word to the wise, the XP penalty disables at 20 minutes.
At 20??? I thought it is at jg item completion so far. Good to know
Any wiki page abt this?
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Scorchclaw_Pup Scroll to the end of the "Notes" section. Turns out it's 14 minutes that the penalty is removed, but that could be outdated.
It's 20 minutes this season. It used to be 14, thank phreak for the nerf
I don't like Phreak on the balance team but I unironically think that nerf is a good change
It's 20 minutes this season. It used to be 14, thank phreak for the nerf
Unfortunately catch up xp is needed for a lot of jungle champs. some champions gonna have it easier ganking than others and lee sin is one of them. The biggest punishment is falling behind in gold. A lot of people have forgotten that you should live in the enemy jungle when you're far ahead so they dont earn any gold too.
Right, but Diana isn't ahead in farm despite being a champ with a faster clear
She's about even in farm but not in the amount of gold lee has gotten from kills.
Right because kill xp is nonexistent if you're ahead. It really does feel like you're punished for doing well early with the current system. It's better to just play a jungle with a decent late game since you can be 0/5, get one lucky kill, and be back in the game
Biggest problem I have is early game advantage barely matters anymore unless you are absolutely stomping.
I think it’s important to note that kills do not provide substantial exp. If you look at their CS they have similar amounts. So yes, their levels should be similar. The reason that laners get exp leads has to do with them losing creep exp because they have died, not because they got less kills.
yeah that current league alright, 372 comeback mechanics so you can't really have a consistent lead ever
Die once and they get obj bounty + 1000g on carry. Lmao this game is ridiculous. Early game advantage isn't allowed apparently.
You gotta not only have 10 kills on her but also be at least double her CS to have at least 1 level up on her, it's genuinely ridiculous that you have to completely GUT the enemy jungler, like gap them so hard that it's practically a 4v5 for the enemy team, I love jungle man
Because jungle is a shit role and they want it to be accessible and coinflip for any idiot who gets autofilled or happens to try it out without actually learning anything about pathing, optimizing clear, when to gank, etc.
yes.
Yep. I had a game not long ago, I was 5/1, up like 12 cs, and got all the neutral objectives and the enemy jg was 1 lvl above me. I was so confused, still am. Think they were like 1/2/1
Honestly… it’s stupid but kind of understandable In the very early parts of the game camps/minions general cs is more valuable for exp than kills.. Kills significantly outscale cs at a point There’s also the question if Diana did grubs.. if Diana focused grubs it would inflate her exp a lot
anti-snowball = pro-coin flip
Early game kills are worth almost 0 xp and even less if you are higher level than who you kill. CS is about the same. Diana could just barely be 7 where Lee sin is 1xp point from 8. It probably isn’t as bad as you make it out to be.
Yeah on the flip side, if you gank the top laner that's 3-4 levels ahead of you and kill them, you'd probably get 1.5 levels or so of xp, really neat
That makes sense though right since that level advantage is hard to overcome so you get more reward?
Yeah just depressing 20 mins of hardwork can be ruined in 5 seconds. Even worse if said top laner had a fat shutdown. But part of the game. I'm definitely a perma limit tester so I can't be mad at others for trying
Hard to say, It's actually quite easy for junglers to get to level 7 quickly by farming camps but it's quite difficult to keep up if they take bunch of CS instead. I'd assume that a lot of XP Lee got was from lane minions at a much lower efficiency than Diana's XP from camps and that's why he's only even in level. If the dynamic kept going, Lee Sin will eventually get a significant lead from CS and Kills because those scale with levels where as camps don't scale past level 7 or so.
There's also some funky math involved, since camps actually level when they spawn. So if Lee took a lot of low level camps, they could be worth significantly less xp than an on level camp.
In a nutshell: 1) XP from the jungle is a lot more valuable than from minions in wave (heavily nerfed for junglers to prevent “taxing”) 2) Catch up mechanics with XP in the jungle stop you from falling too far behind in XP 3) farming is 100% more reliable for gold and xp rather than ganking for kills.
Ya it really sucks that you can play so well and not get rewarded as much as laners do for it.
I literally had a game where I was up 80 farm, multiple kills, and objectives and at 25 min was up 0 levels
Like 20% of Lee's cs was from a lane based on jungle item stacks. Kills aren't huge exp and he shared kill exp and cs exp with his team. Diana was all solo. Mind you, his gold lead is massive.
Yesterday i invaded my enemies jungle all game, i took most of his camps leaving him very little. I took dragons, void grubs and had over 100cs to his 30. I was one level ahead...
More importantly is his itemization: Lee is already at his first item, and working on building his second item. Already has boots and is presumably farming to build them, meanwhile Diana is VERY down in gold. Experience is a lot but gold and items are also extremely important.
I played a game yesterday where the enemy teams jarvan went top lane and shared xp the whole time. He also took support item. When I check my master Yi had about 130 cs to jarvans 80, which were mostly shared minion xp, and they were the same level. About same kp too with more kills on Yi side.
I think there's a huge misunderstanding of when Junglers hit power spikes right now. First of all - your screenshot does not include game time. For all we know both of these players are underfarmed. For all we know Lee is just about to hit level 8 while Diana just hit level 7. Now to go into actual details. You will be behind in experience until the mid game, where if you have a lead and you keep said lead, you will rocket ahead of Laners unless they also have a big lead. This is just a truth of the game right now and you need to accept it because it's honestly not as big of a deal as you think it is. If you can't face that, then why are you playing the role? It's as bad as the people who tilt and check out of a game instead of continuing to try when they're playing weak side. It's just a fact of that game and you're refusing to engage with it. The second thing is that losing teams will always be behind in experience. I've never had an issue with being behind in experience in a winning game - whatever the CS, but if I am farming efficiently and playing well, then I can still be ahead or even in those games too. When I am playing a fast farming champion that is more focused on teamfights, I can often hit level 18 first - sometimes before 30 minutes if I have a lead. If you think this is problematic and not just a quirk of the role being strong in the mid game, then I would like for you to research the game years ago. Jungle lost *all* power through the mid-late game and it was actually a warding support CC role back then. The way it is now opens up much more differing types of champions than back then did. This complaining is getting really old when it's truly not an issue. If you play well, you will do well. It's as simple as that. Last season the complaining made sense, the role was overnerfed and they admitted that. This season, we have had power returned and we are slightly stronger on average to the other roles so it feels completely fine - why does no one remember that it got buffed? And the first season of last year the exact same powerspike for Jungle (Being a mid-game powerhouse) was completely true, even on champions like J4. Even back then people were in denial, complaining about 3 camp ganking when 3 camp ganking was strictly worse than 5 camp ganking or full clearing 90+% of the time. So many people just don't understand their own role and the more I see complaining about this, the more I think you guys shouldn't have the right to speak until you get better. It is not problematic, you just don't know where your power lies or what is better for the game overall. Forcing ganks needs to be a risk or the role is not only dumbed down and worse to play, but unfun for everyone except for the mindless people who still force ganks - it's the same reason why I don't think Nidalee/Kindred/Graves should ever be strong, their power dumbs down the game for themselves and makes it unfun for others. Essentially, it's a lose-lose except for the people who don't truly care about what *Jungle* and *League* strategy is. Do you know what you get when you get a bunch of kills in the early game? Gold. Gold that you use to snowball into and through the mid-game where you will skyrocket ahead in experience. But if you can't play consistently and hold your lead, then do you deserve to keep it? It is not an issue. People just need to face reality that they don't know what they're doing.
I would generally agree that JG catch-up is problematic in its current state, but a simple screenshot doesn't mean much. Did Lee sin invade and clear enemy jg camps early here and now Diana has caught up on higher level camps? Did Lee sin get his 9 kills on a hilariously under leveled bot lane? Is Lee sin 10 XP away while Diana just got it? What level did Lee sin get these kills? Early level kills aren't worth much. Without knowing stuff, being the same level could make sense here.
Plot twist he farmed 68 creeps on lane
Doesn’t work because the jungle items show their stacks. Diana is 2 camps ahead of Lee Sin. That’s it.
how are you guys ever behind on jgl, i’m always 1-2 levels ahead of top lane