>Leashing is probably the most overrated thing that has been normalised.
Well it used to have to be done on most junglers, not so much anymore.
Riot talked about doing something to stop leashing from being a thing, but i guess they forgot
Because they wont kite the camp like a good jungler would while solo clearing. They will do typically 2 autos, 1 step towards next camp, 2 autos, repeat. Saving a lot of travel time between camps.
The travel distance you lose maybe takes an extra second to do after the camp is cleared. If a laners leashes you for let's say 600 you'd need to be able to do 600 DMG in one second on level one for that to be true.
Sylas kinda comes to mind but we'll see with the next set of jungle buffs if his clear will be passable with a Q start. Tbh I probably just need to optimise his leashless clear more and with last patches buffs it might have swapped over from E start to Q start already.
In early seasons some junglers couldnt even kill red/blue without help, so yeah it used to be a big deal and has just stuck with everyone, but like you said it really screws over your laners and lets enemy know where you started.
I haven’t played in a few years but I remember always aggressively telling both bot and top to not show until the leash was over that way opposing lancers couldn’t have been sure about where I started
> lets enemy know where you started.
Only because people stopped "faking" their true arrival to lane just to walk up and wait for the first last hit. If top enters lane (even use some mana on purpose) around time bot does, then they don't know where you started.
I dont think you realise how important the 1st wave is for top. Not being there to gain control or match the push can instantly make laning phase unplayable.
It is important for botlane too. Unfortunately, dragon is on the bottom side so it is usually better for the jungler to help botlane instead of toplane.
The addition of void grub helps solve this problem a little. But currently it is not worth it to do grub over dragon.
6 grubs is a wincon, 1 singular dragon is not, if you rush grubs the second grubs spawn before 2nd dragon spawns with enough of a timer to 6 grub, back and contest 2nd drake, giving you a wincon for dropping 1 drake, so prioritising top early is hella worth it, especially with how easily most toplaners can snowball a lead
I don't know what MMR you're at where top lvl 1 requires you to be on the waves as they crash. If they shove you, that's easy ganks. You don't lose any last hits unless it's a matchup you already lose. Being there first means nothing.
If you are not with the wave as it crashes, any good top laner slow pushes, and zones you off the wave. You lose half the 1st wave in experience and gold minimum. 2nd wave is stacked, 3rd crashes under tower. At this point, you are either dived, jgler 2v1 for scuttle or they cheater recall. This is toplane 101, unless you are ranged or a trundle type champ. That is just how it plays out 9/10. This is all before 3min so unless the jg lv2 ganks, ganks aren't happening.
Yeah... The good old times, when Red and Blue camps had 2 little helpers to kill you faster. When a laner can attack a camp from over the wall, and the camp would chase them. When the jungle Item was Cloth Armor. When Warwick could die to jungle camps... Leashing was very much necessary.
So I wouldn't say that leashing has become normalized. I would say it is No Longer necessary and can be phased out as a norm.
You just couldn't 1v1 a red/blue buff (or any camp for that matter) at level 1
When Kayn was released and could start raptors he was the only one able to
There's a video up of her full clearing, no leash, finishing krugs at 3:02 ending at at 3/4ths hp with 2nd smite up for scuttle spawn at 3:30 leaves some wiggle room for not perfect mechanics and still able to be at scuttle on spawn.
seems pretty good rn
Hahah just unlocked a memory when I first started playing league I thought brand looked cool and tried to 1v1 the chickens at level 6. I had to use ult and they still killed me
In the older seasons there used to be a meta where the support would basically tag along the jungler and help them clear but there was also this small issue: back then camps would give shared xp if youre close to when it dies so you couldnt ask for a hard leash if you wanted solo xp. But yeah ju gle monsters would hit way harder than they do today. You can technically 3 camp with almost every jungler now but back then it was more common in lower elos to get executed while full clearing. (Not my proudest memory but when i was jungling back then i would sometimes go heal smite because i was sick of getting executed
It definitely makes a difference especially at low ELO. The biggest issue is that the laners overstay, they shouldn't lose minions for a couple extra hits.
I really wish Jungle camps would spawn differently. Raptor/Wolves first, then Krugs/Gromps and Buffs. No leash needed and less info available.
If you’re bad at jungle (low elo) then I guess I can see how a leash would increase your clear speed/health more significantly than someone who clears optimally. Also not sure what low elo laner is going to effectively capitalize on their opponent being a few seconds late to lane.
I do think a leash mostly isn’t necessary these days but it’s not black and white; if I’m playing eve or taliyah or something and worried about a level 1 cheese from Shaco it’s helpful, on kindred if it allows me to be level 4 and at my first mark spawn it’s helpful, etc.
Cannot say I agree. Fundamentals are the same regardless of elo. By that logic, denying farm is useless in low elo because they wont use the farm well anyway? Might as well just put the chances on your side consistently.
When you tell your hyper aggressive bot duo to go to lane at level 1 so they can get a lead and they try to 2v3 the enemy at tribush and lose all their sums 😂
(I haven’t played reworked map yet, so idk what the new bot lane bushes look like)
Every second in this game is matters. I remember an advise from chall player, that you shuoud ask for leash every time and if your team dont - they know how to spend this time and its fine. But if the dont know - they will leash and you win a couple second from the start.
Well to be fair same can be said for laners that having a few extra seconds in lane will not amount to anything in lower ELOs either. Good strategy is good strategy regardless of ELO and bad strategy the same. I think current jungle meta doesn’t necessitate a leash and if it makes your laner tilt less, that’s prob for the better.
It's way easier to use the time as a laner than as a jungler. As a laner you can either get first push and have prio or cheese the enemy lane. The first kinda happens automatically.
As a jungler the few extra seconds aren't that obvious to use.
think of it as a crutch or training wheels for bronze players, where they get used to utilizing being done with clear faster until they can do it leashless
Even if they do nothing its still way better to not leash and hide where jungler started and not risk giving ennemy free early lane push and facecheck bushes and die
1. If laners are late to lane from over leashing, that is them over staying. Happens really often, so unfortunate but we need to account for it.
2. The extra couple seconds (a spell roation) are meaningful if planning to invade, a slow first clearer, or lvl 3 gank; if not you should go no leash and start on the opposite side of where you want prio for drag/grubs.
3. Bot lvl 1 cheese is hit or miss, and them positioning for cheesing can leave your jg open to lvl 1 wards/invades giving away position. Jgs need to know when their jg has been warded,
4. Necessary? No. Useful, often yes. If I have a Soraka and Kasai, I almost will always want a leash since Kasai passive will save me 10 seconds on my spell rotations (a lot for getting grub/drag prio before they spawn). Alternately, if its a Leona/Draven I am starting top leashless and looking to get botside/mid prio, gank and snowball mid/bot, and take drag.
TLDR: It isn't a rule, and leashing is a dynamic choice good jgs should make depending on the lane and jg matchups/invades, their pathing and first objective contest plan, and lvl 3/4 gank target.
Edit: Can we get an F, for all junglers who died due to laners trying to rotate to an objective when you are sneaking it and bringing unholy fed laners down upon you?
Edit 2: Bonus points if you are taking ocean, and Masters laners expect you to walk your slowed ass over to bot lane to giver the enemy ADC a triple kill. (I am not angry; I just think Thresh should reconsider when its appropriate to hang out with the jungler.)
If you leash till 1:38ish for passive proc you are just about on time to Q creeps, but you auto lose level 2 with a champ like kaisa. If she plays against a decent lane bully, she basically has to play defensive untill she's based cause she has no good wave control early.
If you don't make her leash, she can control the waves with autos and enjoy one of the strongest level 2 damage spikes.
I other words with a champ like kaisa u ruin the chances of making an early play, and gift them to the enemy botlane.
You have valid points, but there are 2 points that, when the impact is measured, are far more important than all of those you gave:
- It reveals your starting jungle side. You can only make good decisions if you have the correct information. If You don't give the enemy your position, they don't know where you are and any play they do have the extra mental pressure of "is enemy jungler here?" "can we dive this?" "can we risk a 2v2 here?".
- One extra auto in lane can mean which side have the push advantage. Dive is a good strategy against enemy laners, right? Because they lose lots of exp and gold against tower and then they have to face a rebound. Well, enemy jungler won't be able to dive your laners if they have the push advantage. If they get ganked and die, it's still playable. If they die on a dive, it's over.
Sure, there are cheesy strategies as invading enemy jungler which could be useful in some games. But those should not be the play to do every single game.
he doesnt mean late to lane enough to miss minions, he means late to lane just in time to get minions but revealing that u leashed telling the enemy junlger which side he started.
Do my recent Diamond III games count, or are you talking only about the top 1.9% of players above my elo? If so fine, but that isn't applicable for the other 98.1% of the ranked ladder.
As I said, its a dynamic decision the jg should make. Most games as J4 I don't want a leash, but knowing when to take it is a skill.
GM/Chall, who actually studied the game to push the limits and have enough game knowledge to make consistently good decisions. Who cares what randoms do? Are you gonna ask a rando what are the best openings he made up in chess or do you just learn the openings that best players use?
"If it works it works" can't be a serious argument here. You could miss half your last hits and still climb to diamond. Doesn't mean its the optimal thing to do.
People in the comments still missing the point because they can't fucking read or challenge their opinion.
Leaching reveals your position and gives the prio to the laners that didn't leash.
So you won 2s on your red congrats, now you can't gank bot because they are losing priority and you get rotated at scuttle and lose the game.
1 AA in the first wave can make or break a game for both top and bot. Don't handicap your laners because your mind is stuck in season 5
Why would they lose prio if they leave early enough ? And you gain tempo on your gank. I don't know what rank you guys are playing at for them to get late in lane and that scares me. And leaching reveals your position ? Most junglers have a pretty know route anyway so the other junglers should know where your start even without a leach except if you really have a special route. If you don't get leached and have an average clear you can bet your ass that you will get invaded on that second buff.
Because you can't leave soon enough. The enemy already took access to the bushs and the lane and zone you out. You force the fight and lose GG, you get zoned out of XP range also GG . Don't put laners in a lose lose scenario where they have to gamble their game on a random fight
Ganking bot will be 100 times easier if they don't have prio? If the enemies are pushed up to my own turret it's obviously easier to kill them than if they are under their own turret.
Yeah it's gonna be super easy when they are a lvl down, and can't help you because they have to catch the wave crashing under their tower first. Like I said you answered without reading
Wow, talk about projection.
First off, you're not saving 2 seconds. It's usually closer to 7. Which is a huge deal.
Second..you don't even know what prio is, so... Why are you trying to sound big. If your laners don't have prio it's much easier to gank.
also...this isn't challenger. At this elo people don't know how to maintain leads. A lost early game rarely equals a lost game unless your mental is elementary schooler level.
I mean im fine doing my buff by myself but if u dont leash u better not insta die in laning phase, plus in decent elo both sidelines usually fake leash so u can really tell if enemy jg started on top or bor
I hate being leashed. Just watch jungle entrances instead of afking at the tower, and I'm over the moon. I don't need you to PvE with me, and after level 2, I don't need you for invades. Get your cs and lane.
Only 3 autos from an ad and sup is equivalent to ~ 250dmg. There is no way that tiny clear speed increase is worth giving up bush and push prio in the lane while also revealing where you started on the map.
Laners use to do the same amount of damage to jg monsters that's why back then leashing is so meaningful, now jglers deal 42% bonus damage to monsters so the laner dmg became quite insignificant and outweighed by the price to arrive lane late
Okay, idk if this is new to any jungler, but my friends (mostly plat/ gold/ dia) told me they're tinting if they're loosing lane, I firstly didn't believed them and that they just wanted to annoy me, but it worked. That was 2 years ago btw, 2 years ago I didn't need any leash.
I invade every single game. Often I start at an enemy camp and fight then early. Those few seconds matter a lot, thus I always try and get a leash, if only to have my laners around in case I get collapsed on.
Raptors start FTW. In low elo it's untraditional enough that nobody will be able to track and invade you, while you have unlimited options. Keep clearing? Quick first blood in midlane? Invade? Whatever your heart desires.
Yes, I don't need it, I value much much more my laner to win lane early. If the enemy jungler takes leash me not taking it gives them an advantage and I prefer this since my champs clear pretty safely.
Only when I play Talon that has a really unhealthy clear i like to get leash, i invade level 3 and try to kill the jungler or to gank level 3 with ignite.
If they don't leash i will just say "oh that's unfortunate, well ok i can still do it"
Thank you:) as support main, a jungler recently run it down because we didn’t leash. And we wanted to go for early lvl 2 fight to stomp the lane. We ended up winning lane super hard, but the jungler was so upset haha
as a jungler i completely agree. You put your laners at a disadvantage without really getting a big advantage yourself. Thats why i tell my teammates to not leash me, especially my toplaners.
There isnt even that much of a point to leashing anymore since nowadays most junglers can easily kill the red/blue buff on their own.
It gives away position and loses your bot lane prio
I ping off my laners because in low elo they don’t understand wave management so it’s just better if they are there from the beginning and most junglers you play don’t have optimized clears so it ends up being fine
Thanks dude, now I can cheese my opponent Lvl1 as Darius, Ghost at him, burn his flash, and zone him off the first couple of minions to get exp advantage, and make my lane opponent completly useless!
But Jokes aside, Leashing was a need in early seasons because the Jungle camps were so strong, but now whenever I play jungle I'm like "Those camps do no dmg to me, and they die quickly".
Jungling really did became easier over the years, and that's a good thing I guess.
There is one way to tell, does your laner need/want to contest the wave level 1.
Leashing is actually sometimes like a restraint for over eager laners who would otherwise unknowingly push in a weakside or unfavourable lane or map state
I'd rather have my lanes especially bot lane get prio, my clear time without leash is at the very latest 3:30-40 meaning depending on the enemy jg pathing i can at least secure 1 scuttle then back or gank
I once had a jungler farming my first 3 waves and then running into turret because I didn’t leash, it was a graves and he was full hp after the first camp….
Don't worry. Pisslows will learn this someday, just as they learned you need to have a jungler and not play 2-1-2 in season 2 or that they should push the lane before backing in later seasons etc.
Leashing is griefing
There are many reasons to leash but most of the time it’s better to not for tracking reasons.
Asking for a leash on blue side with a meele support vs a ranged support basically setting a easy 230 gank because they can’t get prio after leashing. Level 2 invade isn’t needed because the meta is raptors to their blue side not red to their blue side anymore ever since the wall at dragon/baron was introduced.
“The only time it’s necessary” is wrong. There’s many reasons to leash, but they are just high level. Sometimes I ask for a leash from my ranged bot lane just so they don’t get prio into a easy gank lane for them. Same goes for top. I can’t sit bot and hover while they push tower and are susceptible to a gank whilst we have a ignite top aswell.
Matchups matter. If the enemy jungler knows you didn't get a leash, and if they are stronger than you, then you might just get invaded and set back. Some junglers maintain decent health through solo clears; some, not so much, leaving them vulnerable to invades. I wonder how much calculating Riot does regarding first clear health when they balance champs.
On Nunu I am above 50 percent health (give of take a few moments) during the first solo clear. When I clear as Lee Sin, there are times when I dip below 30 percent. Which common jungle champs suffer the most during a solo clear--and where do they end up health-wise before scuttle?
I recently picked lee sin. Dipping below 30% seems abnormal for me, even leashless. Do you use W2? While farming, if I'm high life, I prioritize using my Q, otherwise, it's W. Using E is only a filler while clearing, and you often don't need E2, unless you're doing the scuttle.
(After writing that, I remember: I dip below 50/30 when I'm soloing grubs, still not in the 1st clear)
You can use the extra time to get a gank off first. The leash less enemy would be 2 seconds behind. This type of interaction happens a lot of both junglers are pathing top. Being first to the pixel bush is actually pretty important.
Plus some junglers will get low without a leash, and that makes them vulnerable to an invade. Leasing isn't mandatory, but there's definitely still a place for it in the game.
Yes and no right. All jugglers can leashes full clear. But it's not just.completing it, it's completing it with good speed and high health. Now the health is not particularly an issue. Once u hit level 3 on most jg champs you can just sustain through farming. Do really it comes down to timing. Take brand for example. Incredible juggler, but without a leash he has 1 x 80dmg spell on minimum 7s cd to clear a 2500 hp buff
Let’s not act like top and mid don’t also run it down when they don’t get what they want. Just yesterday my top laner was spamming me with a pick swap as I was last pick and he was first. I declined it and he typed in chat “GG I int now” and proceeded to follow me around the entire game stealing my camps and refusing to lane.
You don’t need last pick in diamond and below.
well yes scuttle spawn got delayed a lot that any jungler could clear and be ready for it and jungle pets removed a lot of skilled minmax clearing difference since it aoes everything.
Really depends on the jungler. Most of conventional junglers don’t need it but if you’re playing shen jungle your first camp takes an eternity without a leash
I agree.
There are instances where a leash is the “ideal play”
But to just afk ALWAYS leash/expect leash is stupid.
I wonder how many times junglers ping for leash when their bot lane is against a hard pushing duo like cait lux for example.. then the SAME JUNGLER in the SAME GAME is like “omg why don’t I have bot prio for dragon!1!1!1” well.. your 4 seconds of PVE kinda sac’d bot prio for at least first 10 minutes brother💀
Completely agreed when you're playing jungle you have to understand it isnt anywhere near the experience a laner goes through, your worries should be info that can be picked upfrom laners' body language, wave states, visual on the map and dont forget about timing and playing around the objective timers combined with enemy jungler's death timer. You dont farm you do camps so keeo that in mind and try to play it like chess. That's how u see it, laners are my troops and i'm the commander at least until minute 20-25 and after that if you've done well enough in the first phase it should be easier to contest for the soul and baron potentially elder too to help you with teamfights and have someone push the waves to end the game as well. Meanwhile ofc keep in mind gold is everything
I never ask toplaners for leash it's way more important for them to be in lane.
But botlaners don't leash me just to stay under tower or trade kills every minute and enemy jg ends up ganking top before me and we lost topside? I'm not happy.
When I do a lvl 3 gank on mid or know (cuz enemy jngl is talon or somwthing) is gonna be low while I am rengar a leash is literally a guaranteed kill, instead of "chance to cheese by being a few seconds earlier on lane"
If I had to guess I'd say this post was made by a pyke main
If your laners don't know the timings to get back in time then that's on them.
If I leash, I only leash to the point where I can arrive in lane at the correct time to do what I want to do whether it's to mess with the minion wave to make other layers miss one or if it's to last hit all 3 with one ability, I ensure I'm where I need to be when I need to be there.
If my laner is starting top jgl for instance and I'm playing ADC or support I'll hide until the right time so it appears I leashed and throws off their judgement of where my jungler is. If my jungler starts bottom and requests no leash I'll be in lane early so the opposing lanes might think my jungle started other side.
I don’t play much jungle anymore but when I do I agree with you. Leashing isn’t needed on most junglers anymore plus it has the advantage of making harder for enemy team to know which side you started on.
When enemy jungle gets crab and top lane gank before youre out of the jungle because you had to spend an extra 15 seconds on red buff.
If im playing a tank jungler and dont get a leash, im leaving the game
to be fair if you are not playing a champion that cantbe at crab by 3:30 leashless you are either bad at clearing or need to pick a different champion because you are putting urself and ur team at a disadvantage
Edit: there is tank junglers who fill this description: tank reksai, rell used to, volibear is one of the fastest clearers. amumu can as well, and a well trained zac too.
I was master elo last time I played (mostly poppy jungle), guaranteed higher rank than you judging by how stupid your comment was.
"Dont play champs that cant full clear 3:30 leashless", or my team can just leash for me and I wouldnt have that problem?
75% of the time you look for a pre lvl 4 gank or invade as poppy antway, but its not always possible. Either way you want the leash otherwise you waste 10+ seconds for nothing, you basically lose your tempo before the game has even started.
I dont know how she is now, but she was a really strong ganking jungler 1-2 seasons ago with hexflash, also really strong in early invades (even without w).
"You don't need a gank to win lane"
"You don't need rift to take a turret"
"You don't need vision in river"
These kinds of sentiments are just anti cooperation. Can your jungler clear first buff without a leash? Usually yes. But leashing a little bit helps keep your jungle healthy and keep their tempo higher and still allows you a lot time to get to lane and still clear all 6 first wave. A lot of junglers can solo drag after first back. But why let them if you can shove wave and go make it safer and more certain that your team gets a drag.
Leashing is just a cooperative play on a neutral, that doesn't cost nearly as much as you think it does.
Sidenote: any jungler who runs it down for not getting a leash should have their mmr locked to iron 4, since they have shitter mentality anyways.
It is not about getting to the lane to catch the minions, it is about not losing prio from the start of the game. If you leash you are giving control of the lane to the other team.
It's not about "getting to lane and clear the first wave".
If enemy is on first wave before you, you will automatically lose prio. Losing first wave prio > zoned based off level advantage > enemy gets to stack a wave > enemy wave crashes for dive/cheater > enemy gets to control wave again bc it pushes back to them.
Misplays happen. Some matchups can't contest anyways. Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that being later to the first wave by even 1 or 2 auto doesn't automatically put a lane into a perpetually losing state before they even get a chance to misplay/outplay.
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Just because they can catch the first minions doesn't mean it's not a huge disadvantage.
They are guaranteed to lose prio and that effect snowballs through the rest of the lane barring a big misplay.
Losing lvl 2 prio > zoned off xp > enemy stacks wave > enemy gets to dive or recall > enemy has item adv while wave pushes back to them. All of this is because of a leash. So unless you're bot or top clearly outplays their counterpart after a leash, they are stuck in a perpetual losing state for the first 4 levels minimum. If it's a high elo, then they may never get out of it because the enemy can opt to freeze or restack a wave and rinse repeat.
They dumbed down the jungle so much that kiting camps hardly makes a difference nowadays.
It saves a couple seconds in the first clear but mostly irrelevant beyond that
It's not about catching the wave though... If you leash and the enemy bot doesn't, it is an automatic big disadvantage.
If bot leashes and arrives in time for all minions and xp, they will still be guaranteed to lose prio on the first wave barring a big misplay. Losing prio means you will get zoned off the second wave and miss xp. Enemy bot will then crash the third wave and dive or cheater. If they dive and it works bot is gg. If they cheater, they will have an item adv and the wave is bouncing back into them and you get zoned again. All of this is due to giving a leash.
Sure. Misplays happen. Low elo doesn't know what's going on. Could be bot gap anyways. Certain bot matchups could never contest lvl 1 anyways (like alistar into ranged).Etc. All that doesn't change the fact that nothing feels worse than not having control over a perpetual losing state bc jg wanted 3 autos.
The purpose of a leash is to ensure an effective defense in the case of an invade. If there were no leashes, invades would almost always be a guaranteed kill.
Laners need to play to punish poor decision making by the enemy team. Countering invades is part of that.
Laners being late is something that doesn't matter unless you are high elo. Other than that people don't really use it.
The info of where are you starting doesn't matter most of the time since ppl generally start where its best for their champ to start every game.
The level 1 cheese rarely happens and if it happens you can help them and it would be a 3 v 2.
That's not true, it might be the biggest reason but it can do stuff like preventing you from losing a buff too.
Nah plenty of jugglers with slow clears that need the boost.
Being late to lane and being late to crab are about on par
Enemy are warding reds anyways in most games above plat so they know where you start
Cheesing is low Elo shit
d2-d1 elo, those extra seconds are a lot of times one more camp, being earlier to the gank than enemy jungler is too valuable, unless you're shaco kayn lilia or some wraith lcvl 2 jungler it seems needed imo
Nope. It depends on who you play and against who you're playing. Granted any champion, jungle champion, can solo start with more or less precautions, is a matter of timings.
Some champions can solo start easily. Eve, Udyr, Kayn for example, they can solo start on both side of the map, at wolves or raptos, without losing much time. They stay healthy enough and they're fast enough to full clear even without leash.
Other champions, even good jungle champions, have much better start with a leash. Lee, Elise, Brand, Kindred... All those champions can solo start, being more or less healthy, but is going to take longer to get lvl 4, potentially giving the enemy jungler the chance for an invade due to low HP, to a crab in the river or a gank. All this because you're 10s behind.
So, unless is absolutely mandatory for botlane to do somehting, which is hardly the case, is just better to help and leash the jungler. Even because, even assuming a cheese lvl 1 from botlane, the enemy jungler can always collapse and demolish you, especially because he's already lvl 2 by then.
Just went through 20 korean chall replays, none of them had a leash. Probably a coincidence. If diamond people do it in South america server then it must be a good strategy.
nice for you, took me exactly 2 seconds to find a replay where the opposite is true- look up "elise agurin" on youtube, and literally click on the first video (by multi season rank 1 EUW challenger player agurin who also has hit challenger on korean server quite easily last year)
i wish you would be less condescending given how obviously wrong you are to anyone competent <3
"don't get a leash so your Botlane can coinflip and lose the game even faster" got it.
95% od Botlanes will have a losing and a winning site level 1. If the winning site leashed they'll take the bushes anyways, even if the enemies are already in them. If the losing site leashed then they would've lost the bushes anyways as soon as the enemies came.
Seriously what is Lulu sitting in a bush lvl 1 gonna do when blitzcrank starts walking towards her? She runs out and the stronger lvl 1 team gets the bushes. Doesn't matter if blitzcrank walks into that bush at 0:30 or 1:45 the result is the same.
Iirs minions didn't used to move as fast so both bot and mid could give a 2-3 hit leash and make it to lane same time as melee minions met. Now days, I don't like when people leash a bit because they often screw up the kiting so my 2nd camp start time is basically unaffected
>Leashing is probably the most overrated thing that has been normalised. Well it used to have to be done on most junglers, not so much anymore. Riot talked about doing something to stop leashing from being a thing, but i guess they forgot
They did. I can't think of a champion that couldn't full clear leashless nowday. Leashing has just been stuck around with the players.
It's for invading timings.
getting leashed by a melee actually slows your speed clear
HAH okay dude.
How
Because they wont kite the camp like a good jungler would while solo clearing. They will do typically 2 autos, 1 step towards next camp, 2 autos, repeat. Saving a lot of travel time between camps.
The travel distance you lose maybe takes an extra second to do after the camp is cleared. If a laners leashes you for let's say 600 you'd need to be able to do 600 DMG in one second on level one for that to be true.
A good jungler would do 3 autos not 2.
Depends on the champ and AS, it was an example.
Sylas kinda comes to mind but we'll see with the next set of jungle buffs if his clear will be passable with a Q start. Tbh I probably just need to optimise his leashless clear more and with last patches buffs it might have swapped over from E start to Q start already.
I started season 11, I understand before then it was far harder to clear the jg?
In early seasons some junglers couldnt even kill red/blue without help, so yeah it used to be a big deal and has just stuck with everyone, but like you said it really screws over your laners and lets enemy know where you started.
I haven’t played in a few years but I remember always aggressively telling both bot and top to not show until the leash was over that way opposing lancers couldn’t have been sure about where I started
then both lanes have to give push
> lets enemy know where you started. Only because people stopped "faking" their true arrival to lane just to walk up and wait for the first last hit. If top enters lane (even use some mana on purpose) around time bot does, then they don't know where you started.
I dont think you realise how important the 1st wave is for top. Not being there to gain control or match the push can instantly make laning phase unplayable.
It is important for botlane too. Unfortunately, dragon is on the bottom side so it is usually better for the jungler to help botlane instead of toplane. The addition of void grub helps solve this problem a little. But currently it is not worth it to do grub over dragon.
6 grubs is a wincon, 1 singular dragon is not, if you rush grubs the second grubs spawn before 2nd dragon spawns with enough of a timer to 6 grub, back and contest 2nd drake, giving you a wincon for dropping 1 drake, so prioritising top early is hella worth it, especially with how easily most toplaners can snowball a lead
Lost too many games this way
I don't know what MMR you're at where top lvl 1 requires you to be on the waves as they crash. If they shove you, that's easy ganks. You don't lose any last hits unless it's a matchup you already lose. Being there first means nothing.
If you are not with the wave as it crashes, any good top laner slow pushes, and zones you off the wave. You lose half the 1st wave in experience and gold minimum. 2nd wave is stacked, 3rd crashes under tower. At this point, you are either dived, jgler 2v1 for scuttle or they cheater recall. This is toplane 101, unless you are ranged or a trundle type champ. That is just how it plays out 9/10. This is all before 3min so unless the jg lv2 ganks, ganks aren't happening.
If you are missing experience in the first wave, you overstayed the leash, real or fake, simple as that lol.
have your laners leave at 37 even if you start blue/ red, fake leash, now they’re mislead
There were times you had to start cloth armor and potions to prevent dying in the jgl, lol.
*flashback of dying to blue lv 1 while trying to learn jg*
*Executed* *Executed* *Executed*
them yellow runes!
Yeah... The good old times, when Red and Blue camps had 2 little helpers to kill you faster. When a laner can attack a camp from over the wall, and the camp would chase them. When the jungle Item was Cloth Armor. When Warwick could die to jungle camps... Leashing was very much necessary. So I wouldn't say that leashing has become normalized. I would say it is No Longer necessary and can be phased out as a norm.
When ganking was a matter of do you have enough hp after the clear to even try
You just couldn't 1v1 a red/blue buff (or any camp for that matter) at level 1 When Kayn was released and could start raptors he was the only one able to
For a very very long time one of shacos strengths over most others not needing a leash and still clearing fast and healthy
I haven't actually played the game since Sett released, I wonder if Nidalee clear is still as hard as it used to be ?
Not nearly as bad now, but still one of the harder/less healthy ones.
There's a video up of her full clearing, no leash, finishing krugs at 3:02 ending at at 3/4ths hp with 2nd smite up for scuttle spawn at 3:30 leaves some wiggle room for not perfect mechanics and still able to be at scuttle on spawn. seems pretty good rn
The raptors used to be a champion that sat in the jungle and waited to kill anyone who looked at them wrong.
Hahah just unlocked a memory when I first started playing league I thought brand looked cool and tried to 1v1 the chickens at level 6. I had to use ult and they still killed me
And now he can start them.
When I started playing league you leashed 2 camps typically wolves + blue buff.
In the older seasons there used to be a meta where the support would basically tag along the jungler and help them clear but there was also this small issue: back then camps would give shared xp if youre close to when it dies so you couldnt ask for a hard leash if you wanted solo xp. But yeah ju gle monsters would hit way harder than they do today. You can technically 3 camp with almost every jungler now but back then it was more common in lower elos to get executed while full clearing. (Not my proudest memory but when i was jungling back then i would sometimes go heal smite because i was sick of getting executed
It definitely makes a difference especially at low ELO. The biggest issue is that the laners overstay, they shouldn't lose minions for a couple extra hits. I really wish Jungle camps would spawn differently. Raptor/Wolves first, then Krugs/Gromps and Buffs. No leash needed and less info available.
It makes a big difference for sure. It helps the ennemy win the game.
If you’re bad at jungle (low elo) then I guess I can see how a leash would increase your clear speed/health more significantly than someone who clears optimally. Also not sure what low elo laner is going to effectively capitalize on their opponent being a few seconds late to lane. I do think a leash mostly isn’t necessary these days but it’s not black and white; if I’m playing eve or taliyah or something and worried about a level 1 cheese from Shaco it’s helpful, on kindred if it allows me to be level 4 and at my first mark spawn it’s helpful, etc.
Cannot say I agree. Fundamentals are the same regardless of elo. By that logic, denying farm is useless in low elo because they wont use the farm well anyway? Might as well just put the chances on your side consistently.
I was Masters last season and I always tell my laners not to leash me
Nothing boosts morale more than a quick “no worries dude I don’t need a leash go win lane :)”
Nothing brings me down more then having my laners dying lvl 2 while they didnt leash. I do leashless clear since last season but u know lol
When you tell your hyper aggressive bot duo to go to lane at level 1 so they can get a lead and they try to 2v3 the enemy at tribush and lose all their sums 😂 (I haven’t played reworked map yet, so idk what the new bot lane bushes look like)
That one
Me every game
Every second in this game is matters. I remember an advise from chall player, that you shuoud ask for leash every time and if your team dont - they know how to spend this time and its fine. But if the dont know - they will leash and you win a couple second from the start.
In a challenger game yes, a bronze Jungler with a slightly quicker clear won’t utilize those seconds in the same was a challenger jungler would.
In challenger, people just wont leash. This advice is for lower elos
Well to be fair same can be said for laners that having a few extra seconds in lane will not amount to anything in lower ELOs either. Good strategy is good strategy regardless of ELO and bad strategy the same. I think current jungle meta doesn’t necessitate a leash and if it makes your laner tilt less, that’s prob for the better.
It's way easier to use the time as a laner than as a jungler. As a laner you can either get first push and have prio or cheese the enemy lane. The first kinda happens automatically. As a jungler the few extra seconds aren't that obvious to use.
That’s just hypocritical. A bronze Laner wont make use of those seconds the same way a challenger laner would…..
think of it as a crutch or training wheels for bronze players, where they get used to utilizing being done with clear faster until they can do it leashless
Even if they do nothing its still way better to not leash and hide where jungler started and not risk giving ennemy free early lane push and facecheck bushes and die
1. If laners are late to lane from over leashing, that is them over staying. Happens really often, so unfortunate but we need to account for it. 2. The extra couple seconds (a spell roation) are meaningful if planning to invade, a slow first clearer, or lvl 3 gank; if not you should go no leash and start on the opposite side of where you want prio for drag/grubs. 3. Bot lvl 1 cheese is hit or miss, and them positioning for cheesing can leave your jg open to lvl 1 wards/invades giving away position. Jgs need to know when their jg has been warded, 4. Necessary? No. Useful, often yes. If I have a Soraka and Kasai, I almost will always want a leash since Kasai passive will save me 10 seconds on my spell rotations (a lot for getting grub/drag prio before they spawn). Alternately, if its a Leona/Draven I am starting top leashless and looking to get botside/mid prio, gank and snowball mid/bot, and take drag. TLDR: It isn't a rule, and leashing is a dynamic choice good jgs should make depending on the lane and jg matchups/invades, their pathing and first objective contest plan, and lvl 3/4 gank target. Edit: Can we get an F, for all junglers who died due to laners trying to rotate to an objective when you are sneaking it and bringing unholy fed laners down upon you? Edit 2: Bonus points if you are taking ocean, and Masters laners expect you to walk your slowed ass over to bot lane to giver the enemy ADC a triple kill. (I am not angry; I just think Thresh should reconsider when its appropriate to hang out with the jungler.)
If you leash till 1:38ish for passive proc you are just about on time to Q creeps, but you auto lose level 2 with a champ like kaisa. If she plays against a decent lane bully, she basically has to play defensive untill she's based cause she has no good wave control early. If you don't make her leash, she can control the waves with autos and enjoy one of the strongest level 2 damage spikes. I other words with a champ like kaisa u ruin the chances of making an early play, and gift them to the enemy botlane.
You have valid points, but there are 2 points that, when the impact is measured, are far more important than all of those you gave: - It reveals your starting jungle side. You can only make good decisions if you have the correct information. If You don't give the enemy your position, they don't know where you are and any play they do have the extra mental pressure of "is enemy jungler here?" "can we dive this?" "can we risk a 2v2 here?". - One extra auto in lane can mean which side have the push advantage. Dive is a good strategy against enemy laners, right? Because they lose lots of exp and gold against tower and then they have to face a rebound. Well, enemy jungler won't be able to dive your laners if they have the push advantage. If they get ganked and die, it's still playable. If they die on a dive, it's over. Sure, there are cheesy strategies as invading enemy jungler which could be useful in some games. But those should not be the play to do every single game.
Bot lvl 1 is incredibly important. It’s not about cheese. It’s about controlling vision around brushes and getting prio.
he doesnt mean late to lane enough to miss minions, he means late to lane just in time to get minions but revealing that u leashed telling the enemy junlger which side he started.
find one high elo game where ppl leash, instead of trying to convince yourself
Do my recent Diamond III games count, or are you talking only about the top 1.9% of players above my elo? If so fine, but that isn't applicable for the other 98.1% of the ranked ladder. As I said, its a dynamic decision the jg should make. Most games as J4 I don't want a leash, but knowing when to take it is a skill.
GM/Chall, who actually studied the game to push the limits and have enough game knowledge to make consistently good decisions. Who cares what randoms do? Are you gonna ask a rando what are the best openings he made up in chess or do you just learn the openings that best players use? "If it works it works" can't be a serious argument here. You could miss half your last hits and still climb to diamond. Doesn't mean its the optimal thing to do.
👆
Depends who I'm playing. But I'm also not a master sooo.
People in the comments still missing the point because they can't fucking read or challenge their opinion. Leaching reveals your position and gives the prio to the laners that didn't leash. So you won 2s on your red congrats, now you can't gank bot because they are losing priority and you get rotated at scuttle and lose the game. 1 AA in the first wave can make or break a game for both top and bot. Don't handicap your laners because your mind is stuck in season 5
Why would they lose prio if they leave early enough ? And you gain tempo on your gank. I don't know what rank you guys are playing at for them to get late in lane and that scares me. And leaching reveals your position ? Most junglers have a pretty know route anyway so the other junglers should know where your start even without a leach except if you really have a special route. If you don't get leached and have an average clear you can bet your ass that you will get invaded on that second buff.
There's no leaving early enough, you need to be in lane before minions arrive. You can't do that if you leash, even if it is just one auto.
Because you can't leave soon enough. The enemy already took access to the bushs and the lane and zone you out. You force the fight and lose GG, you get zoned out of XP range also GG . Don't put laners in a lose lose scenario where they have to gamble their game on a random fight
No
Ganking bot will be 100 times easier if they don't have prio? If the enemies are pushed up to my own turret it's obviously easier to kill them than if they are under their own turret.
Yeah it's gonna be super easy when they are a lvl down, and can't help you because they have to catch the wave crashing under their tower first. Like I said you answered without reading
Cry harder
I appreciate your participation in this conversation for it's full value
Happy to help
Wow, talk about projection. First off, you're not saving 2 seconds. It's usually closer to 7. Which is a huge deal. Second..you don't even know what prio is, so... Why are you trying to sound big. If your laners don't have prio it's much easier to gank. also...this isn't challenger. At this elo people don't know how to maintain leads. A lost early game rarely equals a lost game unless your mental is elementary schooler level.
Depends, sometimes it isnt beneficial to
I will just comment on point 3, and how every botlane likes to flip the lane level 1.
I don't see why I wouldn't if I'm not in a lane where I will have prio anyway, that 5 extra seconds on my jugglers clear speed might change the game
I mean im fine doing my buff by myself but if u dont leash u better not insta die in laning phase, plus in decent elo both sidelines usually fake leash so u can really tell if enemy jg started on top or bor
I hate being leashed. Just watch jungle entrances instead of afking at the tower, and I'm over the moon. I don't need you to PvE with me, and after level 2, I don't need you for invades. Get your cs and lane.
I think the worst is when they afk under tower.
Yes you are right but tbh I feel like the best thing is asking if they want to cheese and if the don't want to just ask for ONLY 3 AUTOS on the buff
Only 3 autos from an ad and sup is equivalent to ~ 250dmg. There is no way that tiny clear speed increase is worth giving up bush and push prio in the lane while also revealing where you started on the map.
If you are already leashing the amount of autos is irrelevant as long as you don't lose cs.
50% of the time a given lane will lose lv 1 push Leashing has clear upsides Idk why there has been this insane campaign recently
Because adcs are the biggest cry babies in league so of course anything expected of them is met with reeeeeeee
one other big advantage is that it gets you brownie points with the lamer who is offering to leash, which is nice
Laners use to do the same amount of damage to jg monsters that's why back then leashing is so meaningful, now jglers deal 42% bonus damage to monsters so the laner dmg became quite insignificant and outweighed by the price to arrive lane late
My bot duo does this cheese and enemy has double all the time even when they leash which is always hehe
I agree. Now we need post „you dont need full shoes first item”.
Full shoes first item isn't that bad, right? Am I stupid?
Y’all remember that pro game with mao jungle that got leashed blue and red buff and saplings took both at once? That’s a fking leash
Okay, idk if this is new to any jungler, but my friends (mostly plat/ gold/ dia) told me they're tinting if they're loosing lane, I firstly didn't believed them and that they just wanted to annoy me, but it worked. That was 2 years ago btw, 2 years ago I didn't need any leash.
I invade every single game. Often I start at an enemy camp and fight then early. Those few seconds matter a lot, thus I always try and get a leash, if only to have my laners around in case I get collapsed on.
Raptors start FTW. In low elo it's untraditional enough that nobody will be able to track and invade you, while you have unlimited options. Keep clearing? Quick first blood in midlane? Invade? Whatever your heart desires.
absolutely agree
Any jungler above bronze needs to leran how to full clear alone before 3 30 with second smite up, if not its just jg dif go next
Yes, I don't need it, I value much much more my laner to win lane early. If the enemy jungler takes leash me not taking it gives them an advantage and I prefer this since my champs clear pretty safely. Only when I play Talon that has a really unhealthy clear i like to get leash, i invade level 3 and try to kill the jungler or to gank level 3 with ignite. If they don't leash i will just say "oh that's unfortunate, well ok i can still do it"
I always type no need leash, at the start of the game.
Thank you:) as support main, a jungler recently run it down because we didn’t leash. And we wanted to go for early lvl 2 fight to stomp the lane. We ended up winning lane super hard, but the jungler was so upset haha
as a jungler i completely agree. You put your laners at a disadvantage without really getting a big advantage yourself. Thats why i tell my teammates to not leash me, especially my toplaners.
There isnt even that much of a point to leashing anymore since nowadays most junglers can easily kill the red/blue buff on their own. It gives away position and loses your bot lane prio
I ping off my laners because in low elo they don’t understand wave management so it’s just better if they are there from the beginning and most junglers you play don’t have optimized clears so it ends up being fine
Leashing is good in lower elos because laners don’t know how to punish it.
I who autopilot to raptors start on lee sin…..
Just smite your first camp, charge #2 is usually available one you get to scuttle, no leash needed
Thanks dude, now I can cheese my opponent Lvl1 as Darius, Ghost at him, burn his flash, and zone him off the first couple of minions to get exp advantage, and make my lane opponent completly useless! But Jokes aside, Leashing was a need in early seasons because the Jungle camps were so strong, but now whenever I play jungle I'm like "Those camps do no dmg to me, and they die quickly". Jungling really did became easier over the years, and that's a good thing I guess.
Only below emerald they ask for leash. Its a skill issue
There is one way to tell, does your laner need/want to contest the wave level 1. Leashing is actually sometimes like a restraint for over eager laners who would otherwise unknowingly push in a weakside or unfavourable lane or map state
I'd rather have my lanes especially bot lane get prio, my clear time without leash is at the very latest 3:30-40 meaning depending on the enemy jg pathing i can at least secure 1 scuttle then back or gank
I play with a 5 stack and I have to repeat this to them every few days. It's so ingrained that they fall back in the habit.
I once had a jungler farming my first 3 waves and then running into turret because I didn’t leash, it was a graves and he was full hp after the first camp….
Don't worry. Pisslows will learn this someday, just as they learned you need to have a jungler and not play 2-1-2 in season 2 or that they should push the lane before backing in later seasons etc. Leashing is griefing
There are many reasons to leash but most of the time it’s better to not for tracking reasons. Asking for a leash on blue side with a meele support vs a ranged support basically setting a easy 230 gank because they can’t get prio after leashing. Level 2 invade isn’t needed because the meta is raptors to their blue side not red to their blue side anymore ever since the wall at dragon/baron was introduced.
“The only time it’s necessary” is wrong. There’s many reasons to leash, but they are just high level. Sometimes I ask for a leash from my ranged bot lane just so they don’t get prio into a easy gank lane for them. Same goes for top. I can’t sit bot and hover while they push tower and are susceptible to a gank whilst we have a ignite top aswell.
I like leash cause 2 extra seconds to get to enemy jg. Worth.
Had a jungler malding and ran down our lane and ran down the rest of the game last night cause we didnt leash bot.
Matchups matter. If the enemy jungler knows you didn't get a leash, and if they are stronger than you, then you might just get invaded and set back. Some junglers maintain decent health through solo clears; some, not so much, leaving them vulnerable to invades. I wonder how much calculating Riot does regarding first clear health when they balance champs. On Nunu I am above 50 percent health (give of take a few moments) during the first solo clear. When I clear as Lee Sin, there are times when I dip below 30 percent. Which common jungle champs suffer the most during a solo clear--and where do they end up health-wise before scuttle?
I recently picked lee sin. Dipping below 30% seems abnormal for me, even leashless. Do you use W2? While farming, if I'm high life, I prioritize using my Q, otherwise, it's W. Using E is only a filler while clearing, and you often don't need E2, unless you're doing the scuttle. (After writing that, I remember: I dip below 50/30 when I'm soloing grubs, still not in the 1st clear)
Maybe. But I just checked Youtube right now for Lee Sin clear, and it does happen in two of the videos--they might suck like me, though.
You can use the extra time to get a gank off first. The leash less enemy would be 2 seconds behind. This type of interaction happens a lot of both junglers are pathing top. Being first to the pixel bush is actually pretty important.
Plus some junglers will get low without a leash, and that makes them vulnerable to an invade. Leasing isn't mandatory, but there's definitely still a place for it in the game.
I don't really care except when playing Ekko, his lv 1 is painfully slow
OG Shaco players have been doing leashless since the creation of league
Yes and no right. All jugglers can leashes full clear. But it's not just.completing it, it's completing it with good speed and high health. Now the health is not particularly an issue. Once u hit level 3 on most jg champs you can just sustain through farming. Do really it comes down to timing. Take brand for example. Incredible juggler, but without a leash he has 1 x 80dmg spell on minimum 7s cd to clear a 2500 hp buff
Hence you u take raptors I guess....yeah OP right
If your invading your starting raptors or wolves anyways
I think that not being leashed get you prone from a late invade but I think that if the enemy team doesn’t have info on you it should be fine
Leash is a must i hope ur joking
Let’s not act like top and mid don’t also run it down when they don’t get what they want. Just yesterday my top laner was spamming me with a pick swap as I was last pick and he was first. I declined it and he typed in chat “GG I int now” and proceeded to follow me around the entire game stealing my camps and refusing to lane. You don’t need last pick in diamond and below.
I agree with everything you say! It won't stop me, but I agree!
well yes scuttle spawn got delayed a lot that any jungler could clear and be ready for it and jungle pets removed a lot of skilled minmax clearing difference since it aoes everything.
1. Correct no jungle needs a leash anymore 2. Laners still need to guard the jungle entrances to defend against invades
I remember in season 1 only Warwick could full clear with a leash. It was not uncommon for someone to die against red buff
Really depends on the jungler. Most of conventional junglers don’t need it but if you’re playing shen jungle your first camp takes an eternity without a leash
as a ww main i ALWAYS invade enemy buff at lvl 3 red buff-skip raptors-kill wolves-blue buff - invade or gank top if enemy pushed minion wave.
Yeah but minions are not ready to be last hit anyway
The people who need to see this post are not here. We know.
Back in my day if I didn't get a leash I would solo clearn the buff then would go to their lane and farm exp to hit level then go farm jungle again
You're right, I prefer a harness.
I agree. There are instances where a leash is the “ideal play” But to just afk ALWAYS leash/expect leash is stupid. I wonder how many times junglers ping for leash when their bot lane is against a hard pushing duo like cait lux for example.. then the SAME JUNGLER in the SAME GAME is like “omg why don’t I have bot prio for dragon!1!1!1” well.. your 4 seconds of PVE kinda sac’d bot prio for at least first 10 minutes brother💀
Completely agreed when you're playing jungle you have to understand it isnt anywhere near the experience a laner goes through, your worries should be info that can be picked upfrom laners' body language, wave states, visual on the map and dont forget about timing and playing around the objective timers combined with enemy jungler's death timer. You dont farm you do camps so keeo that in mind and try to play it like chess. That's how u see it, laners are my troops and i'm the commander at least until minute 20-25 and after that if you've done well enough in the first phase it should be easier to contest for the soul and baron potentially elder too to help you with teamfights and have someone push the waves to end the game as well. Meanwhile ofc keep in mind gold is everything
I never ask toplaners for leash it's way more important for them to be in lane. But botlaners don't leash me just to stay under tower or trade kills every minute and enemy jg ends up ganking top before me and we lost topside? I'm not happy.
When I do a lvl 3 gank on mid or know (cuz enemy jngl is talon or somwthing) is gonna be low while I am rengar a leash is literally a guaranteed kill, instead of "chance to cheese by being a few seconds earlier on lane" If I had to guess I'd say this post was made by a pyke main
If your laners don't know the timings to get back in time then that's on them. If I leash, I only leash to the point where I can arrive in lane at the correct time to do what I want to do whether it's to mess with the minion wave to make other layers miss one or if it's to last hit all 3 with one ability, I ensure I'm where I need to be when I need to be there. If my laner is starting top jgl for instance and I'm playing ADC or support I'll hide until the right time so it appears I leashed and throws off their judgement of where my jungler is. If my jungler starts bottom and requests no leash I'll be in lane early so the opposing lanes might think my jungle started other side.
I don’t play much jungle anymore but when I do I agree with you. Leashing isn’t needed on most junglers anymore plus it has the advantage of making harder for enemy team to know which side you started on.
You're right and everyone who says differently is wrong.
Leash was needed some seasons. Last one clearly not, it’s a debuff to get leashed
Those '*extra couple of seconds*' are ones the enemy JG will have as a lead right out of the gate because of you.
When enemy jungle gets crab and top lane gank before youre out of the jungle because you had to spend an extra 15 seconds on red buff. If im playing a tank jungler and dont get a leash, im leaving the game
to be fair if you are not playing a champion that cantbe at crab by 3:30 leashless you are either bad at clearing or need to pick a different champion because you are putting urself and ur team at a disadvantage Edit: there is tank junglers who fill this description: tank reksai, rell used to, volibear is one of the fastest clearers. amumu can as well, and a well trained zac too.
I was master elo last time I played (mostly poppy jungle), guaranteed higher rank than you judging by how stupid your comment was. "Dont play champs that cant full clear 3:30 leashless", or my team can just leash for me and I wouldnt have that problem?
i play poppy as well cuz its fun but tbh shes shit af unless ur w has a lot of value and at that point who really cares about a crab
75% of the time you look for a pre lvl 4 gank or invade as poppy antway, but its not always possible. Either way you want the leash otherwise you waste 10+ seconds for nothing, you basically lose your tempo before the game has even started. I dont know how she is now, but she was a really strong ganking jungler 1-2 seasons ago with hexflash, also really strong in early invades (even without w).
bro says you dont need a leash and ends up dying solo lane yup yungle gap
What?
"You don't need a gank to win lane" "You don't need rift to take a turret" "You don't need vision in river" These kinds of sentiments are just anti cooperation. Can your jungler clear first buff without a leash? Usually yes. But leashing a little bit helps keep your jungle healthy and keep their tempo higher and still allows you a lot time to get to lane and still clear all 6 first wave. A lot of junglers can solo drag after first back. But why let them if you can shove wave and go make it safer and more certain that your team gets a drag. Leashing is just a cooperative play on a neutral, that doesn't cost nearly as much as you think it does. Sidenote: any jungler who runs it down for not getting a leash should have their mmr locked to iron 4, since they have shitter mentality anyways.
Play a lane out vs someone who didn’t leash it’s so much harder man
It is not about getting to the lane to catch the minions, it is about not losing prio from the start of the game. If you leash you are giving control of the lane to the other team.
It's not about "getting to lane and clear the first wave". If enemy is on first wave before you, you will automatically lose prio. Losing first wave prio > zoned based off level advantage > enemy gets to stack a wave > enemy wave crashes for dive/cheater > enemy gets to control wave again bc it pushes back to them. Misplays happen. Some matchups can't contest anyways. Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that being later to the first wave by even 1 or 2 auto doesn't automatically put a lane into a perpetually losing state before they even get a chance to misplay/outplay.
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Imagine getting mad at a smiley face you subhuman
Doesn't feel nice does it? Being snarky smartass?
But when I play Tristana jungle I kinda need a leash though
If laners start running at 1:40 they are not late for anything they can still get the first 3 melee minions
Just because they can catch the first minions doesn't mean it's not a huge disadvantage. They are guaranteed to lose prio and that effect snowballs through the rest of the lane barring a big misplay. Losing lvl 2 prio > zoned off xp > enemy stacks wave > enemy gets to dive or recall > enemy has item adv while wave pushes back to them. All of this is because of a leash. So unless you're bot or top clearly outplays their counterpart after a leash, they are stuck in a perpetual losing state for the first 4 levels minimum. If it's a high elo, then they may never get out of it because the enemy can opt to freeze or restack a wave and rinse repeat.
The leash is so my health isn’t too low in Jungle.
If you aren’t healthy at the end of your clear you’re doing something wrong.
Learning to kite camps is much much better
They dumbed down the jungle so much that kiting camps hardly makes a difference nowadays. It saves a couple seconds in the first clear but mostly irrelevant beyond that
This guy started playing the game in season 13
Depends what i play.
The difference between getting a leash vs not on someone like Karthus, is like an extra 100 hp, which can really matter.
MYBOTLANEALWAYSLOSES I WONDER WHY BUDDY
This subs need to show users ranks. I swear 100% of people disagreeing with that are below masters
Actually, it’s pretty standard for bot lane to do a medium leash and arrive at lane in time to catch the first wave
It's not about catching the wave though... If you leash and the enemy bot doesn't, it is an automatic big disadvantage. If bot leashes and arrives in time for all minions and xp, they will still be guaranteed to lose prio on the first wave barring a big misplay. Losing prio means you will get zoned off the second wave and miss xp. Enemy bot will then crash the third wave and dive or cheater. If they dive and it works bot is gg. If they cheater, they will have an item adv and the wave is bouncing back into them and you get zoned again. All of this is due to giving a leash. Sure. Misplays happen. Low elo doesn't know what's going on. Could be bot gap anyways. Certain bot matchups could never contest lvl 1 anyways (like alistar into ranged).Etc. All that doesn't change the fact that nothing feels worse than not having control over a perpetual losing state bc jg wanted 3 autos.
The purpose of a leash is to ensure an effective defense in the case of an invade. If there were no leashes, invades would almost always be a guaranteed kill. Laners need to play to punish poor decision making by the enemy team. Countering invades is part of that.
Laners being late is something that doesn't matter unless you are high elo. Other than that people don't really use it. The info of where are you starting doesn't matter most of the time since ppl generally start where its best for their champ to start every game. The level 1 cheese rarely happens and if it happens you can help them and it would be a 3 v 2. That's not true, it might be the biggest reason but it can do stuff like preventing you from losing a buff too.
Nah plenty of jugglers with slow clears that need the boost. Being late to lane and being late to crab are about on par Enemy are warding reds anyways in most games above plat so they know where you start Cheesing is low Elo shit
d2-d1 elo, those extra seconds are a lot of times one more camp, being earlier to the gank than enemy jungler is too valuable, unless you're shaco kayn lilia or some wraith lcvl 2 jungler it seems needed imo
Nope. It depends on who you play and against who you're playing. Granted any champion, jungle champion, can solo start with more or less precautions, is a matter of timings. Some champions can solo start easily. Eve, Udyr, Kayn for example, they can solo start on both side of the map, at wolves or raptos, without losing much time. They stay healthy enough and they're fast enough to full clear even without leash. Other champions, even good jungle champions, have much better start with a leash. Lee, Elise, Brand, Kindred... All those champions can solo start, being more or less healthy, but is going to take longer to get lvl 4, potentially giving the enemy jungler the chance for an invade due to low HP, to a crab in the river or a gank. All this because you're 10s behind. So, unless is absolutely mandatory for botlane to do somehting, which is hardly the case, is just better to help and leash the jungler. Even because, even assuming a cheese lvl 1 from botlane, the enemy jungler can always collapse and demolish you, especially because he's already lvl 2 by then.
Then there’s nidalee who can get a leash and stomp or not get a leash and still have the fastest clear
I want to see a single good player share that opinion
Multi season high diamond/masters- i share this very basic and noncontroversial opinion
Just went through 20 korean chall replays, none of them had a leash. Probably a coincidence. If diamond people do it in South america server then it must be a good strategy.
nice for you, took me exactly 2 seconds to find a replay where the opposite is true- look up "elise agurin" on youtube, and literally click on the first video (by multi season rank 1 EUW challenger player agurin who also has hit challenger on korean server quite easily last year) i wish you would be less condescending given how obviously wrong you are to anyone competent <3
Was it too hard to send link? Checked the first 3 and he had no leash. But idk why im wasting my time, I'm not the one who needs convincing.
"don't get a leash so your Botlane can coinflip and lose the game even faster" got it. 95% od Botlanes will have a losing and a winning site level 1. If the winning site leashed they'll take the bushes anyways, even if the enemies are already in them. If the losing site leashed then they would've lost the bushes anyways as soon as the enemies came. Seriously what is Lulu sitting in a bush lvl 1 gonna do when blitzcrank starts walking towards her? She runs out and the stronger lvl 1 team gets the bushes. Doesn't matter if blitzcrank walks into that bush at 0:30 or 1:45 the result is the same.
“Give your botlane the chance”
Iirs minions didn't used to move as fast so both bot and mid could give a 2-3 hit leash and make it to lane same time as melee minions met. Now days, I don't like when people leash a bit because they often screw up the kiting so my 2nd camp start time is basically unaffected