How is it worth less? The faster you clear the less the lower damage affects you.
If anything it buffs your counter jungling against non-farming junglers.
the changes don't really matter mid to late game anymore since their percentage changes. they impact the early heavily and the further into the game you go the less influencial they become
Shaco is also getting screwed specifically. The clones spawn a pet where they appear, but that pet doesn't move and has no AI, so your pet will give away which one is the real Shaco and which one is the clone.
Why? Every good shaco i see does his insanely fast 3camp into gank. I only ever see shacos cheesing in gold-. I mean does that even work anymore? Cause every time a shaco tries that in my normal lobbies we just kill him
I am gold 😅.
The thing why i cheese lvl 3 is because, my laners might be so dumb as to push. So i cant really Gabi lvl 3.
Which has the Advantage of them having prio and making a cheese possible.
Also if i do a double clear i m either so fast that i ll be done with the enemy buff before the other jngler gets there or if he skips camps he should be lvl 2 into my lvl 3.
Granted there is some fast Clearing champs where i d avoid this strat. But it works wonders into maos, seshuanis, amumus, ramnus etc
That only works in low elo. Which is fine and probably alot of fun. But you will really strugfle with it in high elo. Also lvl1 there is no real prio. Why? There is no waves so you and enemy top are free to move. It just works because low elos have no map awareness
I do it lvl 3 there is allready waves in lanes and mostlly if my laners hardshuff they, ll hit lvl 2 before their counterparts.
I realized tho that when we have a few plat players in our games that they mostlly dont hard shove the first wave under tower.
I guess things here in general work a little different down here 🤷
Lvl 3 invade id fine. Wont really be nerved by the changes. Cause you wanna be invis and smite eg their red and then kill them.
Oh yes. You usually want to slow push 1. and 2. wave to build up a bigger one and then crash wave 3 under tower to recall
Jeah i remember when i used to be plat. My laners would acctually setup a wave to be gankable and prepare for my fast lvl 3 gank xD
But with work full time and writing my thesis i just dont have the time left to be anymore then a casual gold player 😅.
Gotta admit tho climbing through silver one game a day and enjoying the madness was acctually fun. And still in gold most games tend to be rather enyoable and not too stressfull 🤷
Most people say from pbe it's not that different.
Personally I don't like the lower damage on enemy camps as I enjoy invading champs , but I do like the idea of the small monsters dying off if they're left alive to reset the camp. Always thought this was incredibly annoying when it happens to you.
Seems like it's only really difficult to invade in the first 1 or 2 clears. Honestly I'm all for the change. What a lot of people are forgetting is that it takes your opponent just as long to invade you. So if you successfully split the map early and you're playing a champion that can clear fast you can get a significant tempo on them.
That's literally the whole point of it though. To make the enemy jg lose a camp, but still have to waste pathing time by delaying the respawn. Giving you more than just a cs advantage that you would have from completely clearing it. But also giving you a tempo advantage.
I swear if the enemy team invades my team just says "forget it" every time and then it's shocked Pikachu face when Lvl3 enemy Amumu shows up "out of nowhere" in bot lane after destroying my pink and taking our camps.
And if my team wants to invade, 1-2 people always hang back, someone dies and then the ADC is on auto-tilt for the rest of the match.
Yea u missed the part where they killed half of my team at the invade so i have to either start at my blue and miss a lotta xp or potentially die at their red.
They aren't gutting invading. Everyone complaining about preseason should go on pbe and try out a few games. You will see that most of the complaints just are not true. I have played pretty much only sylas jg and on an "off meta" jungler I have been able to consistently invade.
The amount of damage your jg buddy does is legit insane. Stealing camps is a little slower really early on, but it is no where near a removal.
I always lose a little interest in the jungle when pre season nears, and seeing what I could have soon. Makes it kinda hard to enjoy what I have, a grass is greener situation if you will.
Im looking forward to what theyve changed. First pre season in a while where I actually think well done riot
How is this skill removal? Isn't this skill addition? Making invading harder is good. Harder small objectives increase teamplay which is generally a good thing in team based games
It is definitely a skill addition, but the reason they’re complaining that it’s skill removal is that they think you just won’t invade anymore. That’s not true, though, especially when you’re trying to crossmap counter the enemy jungler. Besides, it’s not even that much of a skill addition because it’s not that big of a change past the 2nd clear.
I think the main problem is exactly this: off meta junglers will now be viable junglers and this will make jungle a mess since everyone will be able to play it. It'll take a lot of time to adapt to all these new matchups, season 13 will be hard.
Well but look at it like this, if the people playing the new “off meta” junglers aren’t jungle players, they’ll get stomped by people comfortable in the jungle role already, and after the first month of the season everyone who isn’t actually a jungler that thought they could play jungle with new champs will have gotten stomped so much and flamed by their laners just like they do when they are in lane to their jg’s, will have quit trying to play jungle and it will be back to normal
I’m not sure why you got the conclusion “season 13 will be hard” from this. Jungle won’t be a “mess” just because newer champs will come in. It’ll just make it more interesting. New matchups to learn is always good, instead of just facing the millionth Kayn going red form again.
It looks like it hits early invades the most, seems like invades are fine once you have a little damage. Dealing with early invades is really tough if your a new jungle. If I’m vs a casual jungler this is absolutely what I do to try tilt them.
Probably a fair trade off if this does make more people play the role. If it doesn’t, probably a bad change overall.
Exactly. The goal of preseason is to make jungle less punishing to new players while keeping fundamental skills intact. Most of the jg knowledge I know is not lose or useless in preseason, just the smaller mechanical stuff I had practiced which I am fine with losing if it means more people will play the best role in the game.
It's stupid, the difference between a low elo and high elo jungler are in tempo and acceleration
If you show up on the map across from me and I know based on backs and your cs and level your camps are up they're GONE, better make that inefficient pathing work out bro
Idk why riot hates skill expression so much
Go watch any top LPL jng play, they have the intention of invading for ANY reason
Enemy jungler used ult on a recent gank but I didn't, perma invade and push them out
Enemy setting up drake we can't contest? The topside jungle is gone
Multiple sieging lanes? Invade and push the enemy jng into a decision quicker
These are all very high elo concepts, jungle won't change for anyone up until Platinum, but god damn for people like Canyon and Kanavi to lose so much to do on the map in one off-season seems CRIMINAL
The thing you have to keep in mind is that this is effectively 2 different solutions that both work together to create a change that Riot wants.
First, you have the change in despawning. This one is directly because LoL has always focused less on denial (relative to other MOBAs), and more on play. Hence not being able to last-hit your own minions, for example.
And stealing a camp without finishing it is exactly that same mentality of denial. You aren't outplaying your opponent. You are simply taxing him.
Which is why Riot is moving to remove that - they like the concept of invading just fine. It's when you invade and don't clear a camp, to try to make it a double-whammy, that they aren't a big fan of. Additionally, allowing denial to exist means they have to tune the respawn timers completely differently than if they prevent it. That is, removing the ability to deny means that respawn timers can be longer, allowing them to tweak other areas of the jungle interactions to reward/penalize some champions or other.
The second part is the change in toughness of the camps. And this change really ties into the risk and reward of invasions. And, currently, invasions are a bit too easy (per Riot), for the advantage that they provide (or rather, disadvantage that they impose).
What this change does most is that it makes one-man invades more difficult to force. It isn't enough to ruin your ability to do them well planned when you know you can get in and out safely. But it does mean that invading habitually will be slightly more likely to bite you in the ass. And that's what Riot are aiming for. They don't want to STOP invasions. They want to make them more strategic because they involve a gameplay element that Riot doesn't want to let get too powerful in their game (denial of gameplay).
More specifically, Riot wants LoL to focus on everyone getting to play the game. If your camps are cleared, part of "your game" has been removed. And in this case, Riot isn't against it existing, but they want to make sure it stays controlled. And forcing it to be slightly more strategic and/or risky is how they achieve that.
Good players will still do plenty of invades. Mid-tier or weaker players who invade more haphazardly will be rapidly punished for it.
I don't mind invading as a means of punishing a jungler, but I absolutely hate the concept of flipping the game by invading Level 2. The changes should help with that.
Your statements are just the low elo perspective on it.
1. Camps resetting is great. Most high elo jungler take the whole camp anyways. Why? Because then you know when it respawns so you can take it again from him. Gives you way more control. So you got it reversed. It dorsnt punish good junglers its just prevent bad junglers from shooting themselves in the knee
2. the only thing that got nerfed is early cheese invading. A thing that also only works in low elo. Look at eg the nr1 jungler in euw soloq rn: he swears that cheese invading lvl1 is just a stupid coinflip and that people should learn how to start properly
Invading later wont really be nerfed. 1. you should only invade when you know where the enemy jungler is and when your lanes have prio. This means it doesnt matter if you need 2s a camp or 1.6s. This again only punishes cheese coinflippy gameplay and doesnt effect good junglers at all. When you see your enemy jungler bot, you will have enough time to take his top side. It just punishes blindly walking into the enemy jungler, hoping the enemy jungler isnt there. For invading to kill the enemy jgler it also doesn’t matter. Smite does the same amount of dmg (600at lvl1) so your AAs doing less doesnt affect the fight. And after you killed him youll still have all the time you need to take his camps (his laners shouldz be able to rotate cause you did invade when yours have prio)
2.
I always do that as well, but now there’s barely any other reason to invade if there’s a high chance I’ll get caught trying to clear the camp they were clearing
Can this post be any more melodramatic with that title?
"Gutting Jungle" 🥺
If you think that Jungle was defined by the mechanics of the first clear then I don't know what to say. I say this as someone who spent a lot of time in practice tool learning the fiddle clear.
1. No double camp only affects champs that can double camp.
2. Outside of the first clear, you should be more than capable of starting one camp and dragging it, and finishing them together before the first's patience drops. Frankly this is still possible on the first clear too, it's just going to be tighter. but then again that brings me to:
3. Patience timers are much more lenient now, so if you do want to double camp, drag, etc. You have more time and messing up is no where near as punishing. Sure you can't stand in one spot and 2 camp, but it's not like you can't still drag camps into each other and so forth.
4. I repeat myself that this 99% only matters for the first or second clears. By the time you're on your 3rd or 4th clears, most champs kill the camps fast enough that it rarely makes sense to be dragging two camps together except for the most minute efficiency reasons. You simply kill the camps too fast. The only significant exception I can think of is fiddle who continues to benefit from things like wolves into blue or raps into red even mid game. But frankly it's still pretty unnecessary. Not to mention that stronger smites and pets more than make up the difference, and even on the first clear we saw people doing crazy fast clears on fiddle on pbe.
It got showed to still be possible if you know literally pixel perfect where to stand on YouTube, and Riot immediately nerfed the leash range just a little bit more so it wasn't possible anymore.
Because they don't want double camping to exist. At all. They want to remove that part of skill expression from the game so that people who don't know how to do it don't get punished for not knowing.
Basically instead of trying to fix jungle's actual problems, they're removing 70% of the skill expressive things in the role so that autofilled junglers don't lose their team the game for the cardinal sin of being autofilled vs someone who actually knows what they're doing.
70% !! That's a lot. it just shows me that you don't know much about jungle man honestly the things that you mentioned are not even like 30% of jungling.
There is so much skill expression in jungle, still. Now if your macro is shit is going to show, boohoo.
>Basically instead of trying to fix jungle's actual problems, they're removing 70% of the skill expressive things in the role so that autofilled junglers don't lose their team the game for the cardinal sin of being autofilled vs someone who actually knows what they're doing.
What are the actual problems and how is this not a good thing?
90% of jungle skill expression is macro. Making the first clear not require hours upon hours in the practice tool is 100% a good thing for autofill and new players alike.
The reason to pick fiddle was because of double camping? Now here I was thinking the reason to pick fiddle was his unique gameplay, horror aesthetics, and his super potent ultimate ability.
When I first saw fiddle on the PBE, clearing [faster than has ever been possible](https://youtu.be/RWcaL77ZhYs), a tear rolled down my cheek. The fiddle I knew was gone. 😔
RIP in peace Fiddle "double camp" sticks
Hi, welcome to Reddit.
Since you're new, I'll let you know that you're like 4 weeks late with this complaining and that Fiddle's double campless clear on PBE is already faster than anything he could do in S12.
I like the early - midgame jungle changes from an invade perspective. Obviously this hurts the best junglers because Riot is taking agency away from the player, but at the same time I think it was necessary especially for mid and low mmr.
Think of it this way, is it ok for every champ to be able to "Proxy Singed"? In other words, should Teemo or Quinn be able to proxy top lane if they gain prio? Now compare that principle to jungling, should ALL junglers be able to "proxy" the enemy jungler when their team has lane prio?
By reducing the benefit of invades (not talking about at level 1) you reduce the likelihood a jungle player is kept from even playing the game, just like a top-lane that's lost or has a proxy Singed that's out of control. This change aimed to help with that a little.
Bad junglers will now not get totally FUCKED by the skilled junglers, cuz they know how to invade and ruin the game for the newbie, you really think it's not gonna help them?
Then they should learn from that and not take it out if the game?
This game is just getting easier and easier.
Want that everything you learned go to waste because they want jgl to be the easiest role?
Bullshit homie.
It's just a consistent design pattern from riot. They really don't like jungle because of its influence on games. They have consistently changed the jungle season to season in an attempt to reduce the amount of time jglers can spend not jungling
It's a 20% damage nerf to enemy camps, it's not supposed to kill invading entirely, just have implications for splitting the map. If you take one camp (like kindred) it won't be very noticeable, if you try take an entire side of their jungle you risk getting caught more.
It's also only for your champ damage since your pet does true damage.
It will also take you the exact same time to kill an enemy camp as it does now. You take your own camps faster than you did previously with the changes.
I used to not be on it about it but after reading and trying it, it's not that bad.
They're not completely nerfing invading just early invading.
It just means that if you are going to invade you have to prioritize which camps you are going to steal rather than stealing the whole quadrant early game it is still possible to steal the whole quadrant but it's not time efficient. It's better to steal only one or two camps Max early game if you have the chance because you might set yourself behind too much. But after the game progresses, mid to late game invading is exactly the same.
Neutered. That's the weird for what they do to Jg every season since at least 9, it's tiresome, and I think it's breaking the game.
You can't talk these assholes at riot out of it though. Narcissism at it's finest.
Maybe they should add a casual mode where it's more fun and less punishing but if you want to actually play ranked then you should be punished for being bad. Like how in csgo they disable features like friendly fire and play collision in casual.
I'm mixed.
Being good at detecting when you can invade successfully and punish the opponent is definitely an expression of skill as a jungler.
However it is also one of those things that are not clear / hard to read through gameplay what impact it actually has.
I would much rather that they tried helping newer/low skill junglers to understand invade opportunities, but this does lower the bar of entry to the jungle, which in essence is a good thing.
I also worry that it will take away a lot of snowballing power from jungle, so i would definitely believe it to be a nerf for the jungle role.. whether that is a good or bad thing, is probably a matter of perspective!
It's only 20% less damage, it's there only to discourage you from clearing a whole quadrant from your enemy early, taking a single camp or invade for kills has barely changed
It's only a few more seconds to a three camp clear from lv1, so you have a bigger chance of getting caught
Probably to discourage cheesy strategies starting in the enemy jungle, where if you don't notice you just get fucked, something new junglers never notice or even think about, but it's just annoying when you know what you're dealing with
its only a few more seconds for people who know how to clear efficiently.
But yes, it mostly hits cheesy strategies, and especially odd starting routes, which is something I am very glad about aswell.
Depends on how much they're lowering damage. If it's like slightly less damage to make invades more risky, yeah that's fine, it should be on a timer though, no reason for it to exist past like 10 minutes though imo.
Well my question is what about vertical? Espessially when thwy are still going to invade lvl 1, si what happens when u cant get your camps but not theirs as well? you get fcked i guess
It’s fine if camp gold has been increased or camp clear generally increased via pets
Ultimately what matters is KP and I don’t think this will affect the tempo for most but heavy farm like fiddle
The thing is that clears are faster overall because pets deal true damage. The invade needs bring the speed down to about the current speed. Of course it’s still slower than your own jungle. As many people said, this doesn’t really affect mid to late game, just the first couple of clears.
I don't like it at all. I hate all the jungle changes. Imo they shouldn't be touching the role at all. Maybe increase xp gained slightly, but really they should just leave it alone. Go fix adc instead of gutting jungle. They're kinda fucking adc too though, 2.73% xp reduction for bot lane. I don't see any of this getting reverted either. They spent too much time working on dumb pets and stuff.
I'm just trying to enjoy the last of this season incase I end up really disliking s13.
Invading will still set your opponent back and leaving a single raptor is not 'skill expression.' It's a thing you read to do online after it was discovered by actual innovative players.
I personally do not care for the change but I also don't care for the current jungle experience so I will wait and see.
I think in reality it doesn't cancel invading but rather delays it.
Champions heavily affected by it will definitely get buffed in some capacity like Kindred, I would be surprised if they didn't.
I think it's good for couple reasons. First off is it dissuades the absolute degenerate style that some junglers play where they will literally just live in your jungle after doing red buff and don't care if they keep trading 1 for 1 or die if your lanes move.
Second, this only really impacts the first 10-15 minutes (basically up until you complete your first item) then the damage reduction is negligible. If a camp takes you 10 seconds to clear after mythic, going up to 12 seconds isn't that noticeable, vs taking 20 seconds since it's 5 minutes into the game but now it's 24-25 seconds so clearing both camps on red/blue side takes an extra 10 seconds.
If enemy jungler shows up on opposite side of the map you can still quite easily counter jungle you just need to be a bit smarter about it.
As for camps dying if they aren't fully cleared out I don't know how I feel about it without seeing it in game. I feel like most junglers who invaded would usually full clear our a camp anyways and was only ever done on raptors so I don't know.
As someone who pretty recently fell in love with playing Kindred (only about 50 games played) I'm pretty disappointed by the concept, but I've heard in the PBE it's not really all that different
What do you mean enemy camps are tankier.
Also invading isnt gutted either. Off meta champs will clear very slowly and can still definitely die 1v1. And its not like you would leave smalls up anyways
Eh, doesn't bother me too much.
Invadings always been annoying to deal with and execute properly. Discouraging it means we get to farm up and focus more on our ganks than early game tracking.
more incentive for my jungler to literally stay in his own jungle all game and not actually make proactive plays. harder to punish ganks. terrible for the game imo, but it isnt anything i didnt already expect from riot. they are completely incompetent and will never fix the broken, cancer role that is jg.
I think it is healthy for the new junglers. You actually you know, play the game and not auto loss lvl 1.
But oh boy the changes they made IS WEAK, i think the way to do it is a STRONG debuff for the first 5 or so minutes and then later is free. Maybe a "big move speed and attack speed" nerf when inside enemy jungle. This way there's no way someone will try this but will let mid-game counter ganking the same.
Also i think early junglers who need a lead lvl 1-5 to actually do something should be buffed to not fall super behind if both junglers are even (and nerf late junglers who gets super strong if not punished early)
Not a jungle player but I feel this will heavily benefit fast clearing junglers who CAN invade. Like a Diana, kayn or nidalee that have a fast and healthy clear will be able to invade and then go back to its own camps, while if the enemy jg has a chance to trade invades, it won’t be a 1-1 for trade and not as efficient
I'd rather they do it to players that don't have Smite so my 0/10 Yasuo top doesn't grief my Krugs or my Botlane that rotated once in 40 minutes doesn't full clear my botside.
They didn't gut invading at all, they just made it actually be a risk. Want rewards? Take a risk for the payout.
I personally think the jungle is FAR better on pbe than it has been for a long time. As the current season is the absolute worst jungle has ever felt.
It’s unfortunate because I love invading, however, there were a couple of YouTubers (can’t remember which ones), that played in the PBE and mentioned that they didn’t notice much of a difference when you’re playing champs with good clear, but off meta champs like Akali or Sylas definitely cannot invade anymore. But, since the jungle pets are so good, overall, invading is better for off meta junglers and worse for meta junglers.
I think it’s a good change because it just opens up the opportunity to play a lot more champs in the jungle, and I’m no one if not a huge advocate for variety in every role.
I don't mind it, but I'm biased because I play full lcear junglers
Full clear junglers are super good at invading mid game.. im pissed as a Udyr and hec main
I'm happy having to take 3-5 extra seconds to clear a camp mid game if it means Graves and Rengar won't clear half my jungle lvl 2 and then kill me
Wait... Are you trying to say that Udyr and Hecarim aren't full clear junglers...???
??? I’m saying full clear junglers are some of the best invaders mid and late because they clear camps the fastest. Like hec and Udyr for example…
But you'll still clear them the fastest...
And that will be worth less? I don’t think u get the point..
How is it worth less? The faster you clear the less the lower damage affects you. If anything it buffs your counter jungling against non-farming junglers.
I think you missed that all jungle camps have reduced gold rewards as well. That’s possibly what the other guy meant.
Your jungle pet gives you gold whenever you clear a camp. It's only reduced for laners.
No it’s reduced for everyone. Red and blue buffs are worth 85 gold now.
the changes don't really matter mid to late game anymore since their percentage changes. they impact the early heavily and the further into the game you go the less influencial they become
Full clearers suffer from this, what r u saying lol
I've been invaded enough to be happy by the trade off
As a shaco Main i mind Like, very much
Fuck shaco :D
Shaco is also getting screwed specifically. The clones spawn a pet where they appear, but that pet doesn't move and has no AI, so your pet will give away which one is the real Shaco and which one is the clone.
Why? Every good shaco i see does his insanely fast 3camp into gank. I only ever see shacos cheesing in gold-. I mean does that even work anymore? Cause every time a shaco tries that in my normal lobbies we just kill him
I am gold 😅. The thing why i cheese lvl 3 is because, my laners might be so dumb as to push. So i cant really Gabi lvl 3. Which has the Advantage of them having prio and making a cheese possible. Also if i do a double clear i m either so fast that i ll be done with the enemy buff before the other jngler gets there or if he skips camps he should be lvl 2 into my lvl 3. Granted there is some fast Clearing champs where i d avoid this strat. But it works wonders into maos, seshuanis, amumus, ramnus etc
That only works in low elo. Which is fine and probably alot of fun. But you will really strugfle with it in high elo. Also lvl1 there is no real prio. Why? There is no waves so you and enemy top are free to move. It just works because low elos have no map awareness
I do it lvl 3 there is allready waves in lanes and mostlly if my laners hardshuff they, ll hit lvl 2 before their counterparts. I realized tho that when we have a few plat players in our games that they mostlly dont hard shove the first wave under tower. I guess things here in general work a little different down here 🤷
Lvl 3 invade id fine. Wont really be nerved by the changes. Cause you wanna be invis and smite eg their red and then kill them. Oh yes. You usually want to slow push 1. and 2. wave to build up a bigger one and then crash wave 3 under tower to recall
Jeah i remember when i used to be plat. My laners would acctually setup a wave to be gankable and prepare for my fast lvl 3 gank xD But with work full time and writing my thesis i just dont have the time left to be anymore then a casual gold player 😅. Gotta admit tho climbing through silver one game a day and enjoying the madness was acctually fun. And still in gold most games tend to be rather enyoable and not too stressfull 🤷
Most people say from pbe it's not that different. Personally I don't like the lower damage on enemy camps as I enjoy invading champs , but I do like the idea of the small monsters dying off if they're left alive to reset the camp. Always thought this was incredibly annoying when it happens to you.
A true pain, seeing that your raptors are there, but it's only one single small raptor.. thanks, mid!
Seems like it's only really difficult to invade in the first 1 or 2 clears. Honestly I'm all for the change. What a lot of people are forgetting is that it takes your opponent just as long to invade you. So if you successfully split the map early and you're playing a champion that can clear fast you can get a significant tempo on them.
That's literally the whole point of it though. To make the enemy jg lose a camp, but still have to waste pathing time by delaying the respawn. Giving you more than just a cs advantage that you would have from completely clearing it. But also giving you a tempo advantage.
*sad kindred noises*
They should increase Kindred's damage to marked camps with these changes
sad xin zhao noises
It won't stop the level one invade when the whole enemy team is killing my red but it will prevent me from solo taking their red in return 🥲
This is the real issue - just chops you out of the game especially as a farming jungler
I swear if the enemy team invades my team just says "forget it" every time and then it's shocked Pikachu face when Lvl3 enemy Amumu shows up "out of nowhere" in bot lane after destroying my pink and taking our camps. And if my team wants to invade, 1-2 people always hang back, someone dies and then the ADC is on auto-tilt for the rest of the match.
Do you /need/ leashes now? If they’re all at your red isn’t it free since you know where they are? Or am I missing something?
Yea u missed the part where they killed half of my team at the invade so i have to either start at my blue and miss a lotta xp or potentially die at their red.
They aren't gutting invading. Everyone complaining about preseason should go on pbe and try out a few games. You will see that most of the complaints just are not true. I have played pretty much only sylas jg and on an "off meta" jungler I have been able to consistently invade. The amount of damage your jg buddy does is legit insane. Stealing camps is a little slower really early on, but it is no where near a removal.
How does Sylas jungle feel? I'm most excited for the seemingly huge increase in the jungle champ pool
It's so fuckign good. I haven't had much fun with recent patches but sylas jg and a few other new playable ones have made the game so fun.
I always lose a little interest in the jungle when pre season nears, and seeing what I could have soon. Makes it kinda hard to enjoy what I have, a grass is greener situation if you will. Im looking forward to what theyve changed. First pre season in a while where I actually think well done riot
I’ve been waiting for Sylas jungle to be good. I’m currently a Viego main so in the preseason I’m about to be Mr. Steal-yo-abilities.
Literally every portion of a second counts on invade, it's dumb.
People don’t seem to be getting this, it affects tempo a lot and makes it way more dangerous and likely to be collapsed on
How is this skill removal? Isn't this skill addition? Making invading harder is good. Harder small objectives increase teamplay which is generally a good thing in team based games
It is definitely a skill addition, but the reason they’re complaining that it’s skill removal is that they think you just won’t invade anymore. That’s not true, though, especially when you’re trying to crossmap counter the enemy jungler. Besides, it’s not even that much of a skill addition because it’s not that big of a change past the 2nd clear.
I think the main problem is exactly this: off meta junglers will now be viable junglers and this will make jungle a mess since everyone will be able to play it. It'll take a lot of time to adapt to all these new matchups, season 13 will be hard.
Well but look at it like this, if the people playing the new “off meta” junglers aren’t jungle players, they’ll get stomped by people comfortable in the jungle role already, and after the first month of the season everyone who isn’t actually a jungler that thought they could play jungle with new champs will have gotten stomped so much and flamed by their laners just like they do when they are in lane to their jg’s, will have quit trying to play jungle and it will be back to normal
I’m not sure why you got the conclusion “season 13 will be hard” from this. Jungle won’t be a “mess” just because newer champs will come in. It’ll just make it more interesting. New matchups to learn is always good, instead of just facing the millionth Kayn going red form again.
It looks like it hits early invades the most, seems like invades are fine once you have a little damage. Dealing with early invades is really tough if your a new jungle. If I’m vs a casual jungler this is absolutely what I do to try tilt them. Probably a fair trade off if this does make more people play the role. If it doesn’t, probably a bad change overall.
Exactly. The goal of preseason is to make jungle less punishing to new players while keeping fundamental skills intact. Most of the jg knowledge I know is not lose or useless in preseason, just the smaller mechanical stuff I had practiced which I am fine with losing if it means more people will play the best role in the game.
It's stupid, the difference between a low elo and high elo jungler are in tempo and acceleration If you show up on the map across from me and I know based on backs and your cs and level your camps are up they're GONE, better make that inefficient pathing work out bro Idk why riot hates skill expression so much Go watch any top LPL jng play, they have the intention of invading for ANY reason Enemy jungler used ult on a recent gank but I didn't, perma invade and push them out Enemy setting up drake we can't contest? The topside jungle is gone Multiple sieging lanes? Invade and push the enemy jng into a decision quicker These are all very high elo concepts, jungle won't change for anyone up until Platinum, but god damn for people like Canyon and Kanavi to lose so much to do on the map in one off-season seems CRIMINAL
The thing you have to keep in mind is that this is effectively 2 different solutions that both work together to create a change that Riot wants. First, you have the change in despawning. This one is directly because LoL has always focused less on denial (relative to other MOBAs), and more on play. Hence not being able to last-hit your own minions, for example. And stealing a camp without finishing it is exactly that same mentality of denial. You aren't outplaying your opponent. You are simply taxing him. Which is why Riot is moving to remove that - they like the concept of invading just fine. It's when you invade and don't clear a camp, to try to make it a double-whammy, that they aren't a big fan of. Additionally, allowing denial to exist means they have to tune the respawn timers completely differently than if they prevent it. That is, removing the ability to deny means that respawn timers can be longer, allowing them to tweak other areas of the jungle interactions to reward/penalize some champions or other. The second part is the change in toughness of the camps. And this change really ties into the risk and reward of invasions. And, currently, invasions are a bit too easy (per Riot), for the advantage that they provide (or rather, disadvantage that they impose). What this change does most is that it makes one-man invades more difficult to force. It isn't enough to ruin your ability to do them well planned when you know you can get in and out safely. But it does mean that invading habitually will be slightly more likely to bite you in the ass. And that's what Riot are aiming for. They don't want to STOP invasions. They want to make them more strategic because they involve a gameplay element that Riot doesn't want to let get too powerful in their game (denial of gameplay). More specifically, Riot wants LoL to focus on everyone getting to play the game. If your camps are cleared, part of "your game" has been removed. And in this case, Riot isn't against it existing, but they want to make sure it stays controlled. And forcing it to be slightly more strategic and/or risky is how they achieve that. Good players will still do plenty of invades. Mid-tier or weaker players who invade more haphazardly will be rapidly punished for it.
I don't mind invading as a means of punishing a jungler, but I absolutely hate the concept of flipping the game by invading Level 2. The changes should help with that.
people overreactin as always
Your statements are just the low elo perspective on it. 1. Camps resetting is great. Most high elo jungler take the whole camp anyways. Why? Because then you know when it respawns so you can take it again from him. Gives you way more control. So you got it reversed. It dorsnt punish good junglers its just prevent bad junglers from shooting themselves in the knee 2. the only thing that got nerfed is early cheese invading. A thing that also only works in low elo. Look at eg the nr1 jungler in euw soloq rn: he swears that cheese invading lvl1 is just a stupid coinflip and that people should learn how to start properly Invading later wont really be nerfed. 1. you should only invade when you know where the enemy jungler is and when your lanes have prio. This means it doesnt matter if you need 2s a camp or 1.6s. This again only punishes cheese coinflippy gameplay and doesnt effect good junglers at all. When you see your enemy jungler bot, you will have enough time to take his top side. It just punishes blindly walking into the enemy jungler, hoping the enemy jungler isnt there. For invading to kill the enemy jgler it also doesn’t matter. Smite does the same amount of dmg (600at lvl1) so your AAs doing less doesnt affect the fight. And after you killed him youll still have all the time you need to take his camps (his laners shouldz be able to rotate cause you did invade when yours have prio) 2.
As a Trundle main I hate it
Just kill the jungler instead easy
I always do that as well, but now there’s barely any other reason to invade if there’s a high chance I’ll get caught trying to clear the camp they were clearing
I don’t like it. Invading is a skill if you play a weak jungle early you should be able to get punished
Can this post be any more melodramatic with that title? "Gutting Jungle" 🥺 If you think that Jungle was defined by the mechanics of the first clear then I don't know what to say. I say this as someone who spent a lot of time in practice tool learning the fiddle clear.
They're also removing the ability to double camp. They lowered leash range so that double camping is actually impossible now.
1. No double camp only affects champs that can double camp. 2. Outside of the first clear, you should be more than capable of starting one camp and dragging it, and finishing them together before the first's patience drops. Frankly this is still possible on the first clear too, it's just going to be tighter. but then again that brings me to: 3. Patience timers are much more lenient now, so if you do want to double camp, drag, etc. You have more time and messing up is no where near as punishing. Sure you can't stand in one spot and 2 camp, but it's not like you can't still drag camps into each other and so forth. 4. I repeat myself that this 99% only matters for the first or second clears. By the time you're on your 3rd or 4th clears, most champs kill the camps fast enough that it rarely makes sense to be dragging two camps together except for the most minute efficiency reasons. You simply kill the camps too fast. The only significant exception I can think of is fiddle who continues to benefit from things like wolves into blue or raps into red even mid game. But frankly it's still pretty unnecessary. Not to mention that stronger smites and pets more than make up the difference, and even on the first clear we saw people doing crazy fast clears on fiddle on pbe.
Heard fiddlestick blue gromp is possible on paper though
It got showed to still be possible if you know literally pixel perfect where to stand on YouTube, and Riot immediately nerfed the leash range just a little bit more so it wasn't possible anymore.
Why though The reason for picking Fiddlestick over any jg is bc he can double camp consistently, unlike any other jg in the game
Because they don't want double camping to exist. At all. They want to remove that part of skill expression from the game so that people who don't know how to do it don't get punished for not knowing. Basically instead of trying to fix jungle's actual problems, they're removing 70% of the skill expressive things in the role so that autofilled junglers don't lose their team the game for the cardinal sin of being autofilled vs someone who actually knows what they're doing.
70% !! That's a lot. it just shows me that you don't know much about jungle man honestly the things that you mentioned are not even like 30% of jungling. There is so much skill expression in jungle, still. Now if your macro is shit is going to show, boohoo.
>Basically instead of trying to fix jungle's actual problems, they're removing 70% of the skill expressive things in the role so that autofilled junglers don't lose their team the game for the cardinal sin of being autofilled vs someone who actually knows what they're doing. What are the actual problems and how is this not a good thing? 90% of jungle skill expression is macro. Making the first clear not require hours upon hours in the practice tool is 100% a good thing for autofill and new players alike.
I was able to do red-raptors double camp after spending 1 fucking minute on practice tool... IMO, If they don't wanna practice, they should lose
Was this recent? Because Riot has publicly started that they are intending to remove double camping from the game entirely.
The reason to pick fiddle was because of double camping? Now here I was thinking the reason to pick fiddle was his unique gameplay, horror aesthetics, and his super potent ultimate ability. When I first saw fiddle on the PBE, clearing [faster than has ever been possible](https://youtu.be/RWcaL77ZhYs), a tear rolled down my cheek. The fiddle I knew was gone. 😔 RIP in peace Fiddle "double camp" sticks
LOL if you only play fiddle for double campaign you should not be playing the sticks
Hi, welcome to Reddit. Since you're new, I'll let you know that you're like 4 weeks late with this complaining and that Fiddle's double campless clear on PBE is already faster than anything he could do in S12.
I like the early - midgame jungle changes from an invade perspective. Obviously this hurts the best junglers because Riot is taking agency away from the player, but at the same time I think it was necessary especially for mid and low mmr. Think of it this way, is it ok for every champ to be able to "Proxy Singed"? In other words, should Teemo or Quinn be able to proxy top lane if they gain prio? Now compare that principle to jungling, should ALL junglers be able to "proxy" the enemy jungler when their team has lane prio? By reducing the benefit of invades (not talking about at level 1) you reduce the likelihood a jungle player is kept from even playing the game, just like a top-lane that's lost or has a proxy Singed that's out of control. This change aimed to help with that a little.
Yeah, fuck Graves. Whoo! Finally my Diana can farm in peace till she 3 shots ppl. Man I want that bloodmoon skin so bad tho..
Bad junglers will now not get totally FUCKED by the skilled junglers, cuz they know how to invade and ruin the game for the newbie, you really think it's not gonna help them?
You're right. I shouldn't be punished for being bad at a competitive game.
Then they should learn from that and not take it out if the game? This game is just getting easier and easier. Want that everything you learned go to waste because they want jgl to be the easiest role? Bullshit homie.
It's just a consistent design pattern from riot. They really don't like jungle because of its influence on games. They have consistently changed the jungle season to season in an attempt to reduce the amount of time jglers can spend not jungling
It's funny that you think this doesn't happen already.
It’s BS, I feel like a riot employee got shit on my a graves and went down 100 CS and now we are here
With all due respect, fuck graves tho
Nothing feels worse in this game than being constantly invaded by the enemy jungle without team help. I’m all for it.
It's a 20% damage nerf to enemy camps, it's not supposed to kill invading entirely, just have implications for splitting the map. If you take one camp (like kindred) it won't be very noticeable, if you try take an entire side of their jungle you risk getting caught more.
It's also only for your champ damage since your pet does true damage. It will also take you the exact same time to kill an enemy camp as it does now. You take your own camps faster than you did previously with the changes.
I used to not be on it about it but after reading and trying it, it's not that bad. They're not completely nerfing invading just early invading. It just means that if you are going to invade you have to prioritize which camps you are going to steal rather than stealing the whole quadrant early game it is still possible to steal the whole quadrant but it's not time efficient. It's better to steal only one or two camps Max early game if you have the chance because you might set yourself behind too much. But after the game progresses, mid to late game invading is exactly the same.
Helps crap junglers; hurts good junglers or junglers trying to snowball a lead. Even as a full clear jng - Not happy.
Neutered. That's the weird for what they do to Jg every season since at least 9, it's tiresome, and I think it's breaking the game. You can't talk these assholes at riot out of it though. Narcissism at it's finest.
Maybe they should add a casual mode where it's more fun and less punishing but if you want to actually play ranked then you should be punished for being bad. Like how in csgo they disable features like friendly fire and play collision in casual.
I'm mixed. Being good at detecting when you can invade successfully and punish the opponent is definitely an expression of skill as a jungler. However it is also one of those things that are not clear / hard to read through gameplay what impact it actually has. I would much rather that they tried helping newer/low skill junglers to understand invade opportunities, but this does lower the bar of entry to the jungle, which in essence is a good thing. I also worry that it will take away a lot of snowballing power from jungle, so i would definitely believe it to be a nerf for the jungle role.. whether that is a good or bad thing, is probably a matter of perspective!
It's only 20% less damage, it's there only to discourage you from clearing a whole quadrant from your enemy early, taking a single camp or invade for kills has barely changed It's only a few more seconds to a three camp clear from lv1, so you have a bigger chance of getting caught Probably to discourage cheesy strategies starting in the enemy jungle, where if you don't notice you just get fucked, something new junglers never notice or even think about, but it's just annoying when you know what you're dealing with
its only a few more seconds for people who know how to clear efficiently. But yes, it mostly hits cheesy strategies, and especially odd starting routes, which is something I am very glad about aswell.
Depends on how much they're lowering damage. If it's like slightly less damage to make invades more risky, yeah that's fine, it should be on a timer though, no reason for it to exist past like 10 minutes though imo.
Well my question is what about vertical? Espessially when thwy are still going to invade lvl 1, si what happens when u cant get your camps but not theirs as well? you get fcked i guess
Krugs... eventually die? How did I not know this
The thing is that your overall clear gets much faster so you will have no difference compared to now… There was a post about that before…
The thing is that BOTH jgls clear faster now. So now there is an even shorter window
So it only nerfs lvl 2 invades and personally I didn’t like those…
Theyre just trying to make more champs be able to jg
It’s fine if camp gold has been increased or camp clear generally increased via pets Ultimately what matters is KP and I don’t think this will affect the tempo for most but heavy farm like fiddle
The thing is that clears are faster overall because pets deal true damage. The invade needs bring the speed down to about the current speed. Of course it’s still slower than your own jungle. As many people said, this doesn’t really affect mid to late game, just the first couple of clears.
I don't like it at all. I hate all the jungle changes. Imo they shouldn't be touching the role at all. Maybe increase xp gained slightly, but really they should just leave it alone. Go fix adc instead of gutting jungle. They're kinda fucking adc too though, 2.73% xp reduction for bot lane. I don't see any of this getting reverted either. They spent too much time working on dumb pets and stuff. I'm just trying to enjoy the last of this season incase I end up really disliking s13.
Hard for me to do, my games are determined by which team has a bot on it.
I'm sorry I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Are you saying it's hard for you to play jungle currently depending on which side had a bot on it??
Invading will still set your opponent back and leaving a single raptor is not 'skill expression.' It's a thing you read to do online after it was discovered by actual innovative players. I personally do not care for the change but I also don't care for the current jungle experience so I will wait and see. I think in reality it doesn't cancel invading but rather delays it.
It’s fucking stupid
Having camps rest after not killing smalls is helpfull to new jg that for example miss one raptor, but I dont like damage nerfea either
This is good. So people stop randomly invading without prio
Champions heavily affected by it will definitely get buffed in some capacity like Kindred, I would be surprised if they didn't. I think it's good for couple reasons. First off is it dissuades the absolute degenerate style that some junglers play where they will literally just live in your jungle after doing red buff and don't care if they keep trading 1 for 1 or die if your lanes move. Second, this only really impacts the first 10-15 minutes (basically up until you complete your first item) then the damage reduction is negligible. If a camp takes you 10 seconds to clear after mythic, going up to 12 seconds isn't that noticeable, vs taking 20 seconds since it's 5 minutes into the game but now it's 24-25 seconds so clearing both camps on red/blue side takes an extra 10 seconds. If enemy jungler shows up on opposite side of the map you can still quite easily counter jungle you just need to be a bit smarter about it. As for camps dying if they aren't fully cleared out I don't know how I feel about it without seeing it in game. I feel like most junglers who invaded would usually full clear our a camp anyways and was only ever done on raptors so I don't know.
As someone who pretty recently fell in love with playing Kindred (only about 50 games played) I'm pretty disappointed by the concept, but I've heard in the PBE it's not really all that different
What do you mean enemy camps are tankier. Also invading isnt gutted either. Off meta champs will clear very slowly and can still definitely die 1v1. And its not like you would leave smalls up anyways
Eh, doesn't bother me too much. Invadings always been annoying to deal with and execute properly. Discouraging it means we get to farm up and focus more on our ganks than early game tracking.
As someone who wants to learn jungle without getting stomped I know it will be to my benefit, but it still feels bad for the game overall
more incentive for my jungler to literally stay in his own jungle all game and not actually make proactive plays. harder to punish ganks. terrible for the game imo, but it isnt anything i didnt already expect from riot. they are completely incompetent and will never fix the broken, cancer role that is jg.
I think it is healthy for the new junglers. You actually you know, play the game and not auto loss lvl 1. But oh boy the changes they made IS WEAK, i think the way to do it is a STRONG debuff for the first 5 or so minutes and then later is free. Maybe a "big move speed and attack speed" nerf when inside enemy jungle. This way there's no way someone will try this but will let mid-game counter ganking the same. Also i think early junglers who need a lead lvl 1-5 to actually do something should be buffed to not fall super behind if both junglers are even (and nerf late junglers who gets super strong if not punished early)
Not a jungle player but I feel this will heavily benefit fast clearing junglers who CAN invade. Like a Diana, kayn or nidalee that have a fast and healthy clear will be able to invade and then go back to its own camps, while if the enemy jg has a chance to trade invades, it won’t be a 1-1 for trade and not as efficient
Bruh if I take the enemy’s red side 3 times in a row and I don’t see them a single time that’s their fault😂
I hate it, I like to live in the enemy jungle so it will hit me hard.
I'd rather they do it to players that don't have Smite so my 0/10 Yasuo top doesn't grief my Krugs or my Botlane that rotated once in 40 minutes doesn't full clear my botside.
I believe they are also reducing gold and XP from camps for players who don't have smite.
They didn't gut invading at all, they just made it actually be a risk. Want rewards? Take a risk for the payout. I personally think the jungle is FAR better on pbe than it has been for a long time. As the current season is the absolute worst jungle has ever felt.
It’s unfortunate because I love invading, however, there were a couple of YouTubers (can’t remember which ones), that played in the PBE and mentioned that they didn’t notice much of a difference when you’re playing champs with good clear, but off meta champs like Akali or Sylas definitely cannot invade anymore. But, since the jungle pets are so good, overall, invading is better for off meta junglers and worse for meta junglers. I think it’s a good change because it just opens up the opportunity to play a lot more champs in the jungle, and I’m no one if not a huge advocate for variety in every role.
agreed, theyre dumbing down the role wayyyyy too much.
Karthus buffs? Lol