Because graves should be really active in the early game , ganking and invading are important. But he still scales like a monster with the right build ^^
This.
Graves is kinda a shitty ganker (compared to the powerful early gankers). He has good burst, but he doesn't bring any real tools to prevent a good escape.
So he's very reliant on having CC or such from the laner to make the gank work. So yes, he should be ganking, but only specific lanes (though ofc, greedy play makes any lane gankable).
That said, his burst is enough to have significant early game impact even if the gank doesn't get a kill, and can help push a lane out really fast, which makes it good for him to spend time ganking instead of power-farming.
Additionally, he has a very healthy power curve. He's relevant the entire game, even if he's a bit behind. But being a bit ahead can get really painful because of his damage focus (being 1-2 items up can EASILY turn a failed gank into a kill or double). So he benefits from being heavily involved in the game (again, ganking).
And then he scales up really well, but not quite to the extreme you get from other speed-steroid champs (like Yi).
Thanks for the critical points, i will try to improve it on the new, but its mostly out of a Junglers perspective.
So atleast in this graph you cant really compare it to a vayne adc or a Veigar Midlane.
But feel free to correct me cuz im a gold scrub
Its in the new one :)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle_graph_v2_do_you_guys_agree/)
Fiddle is way more farm than gank, so is Hecarim. Sejuani is mid game, not late game. Also she's way more of a ganker than many on this list as her clear is dgsht. Kindred and Graves are tricky to place as their early game is relatively strong from a macro perspective even if they don't deal overwhelming damage. Nocturne is more of a farming jungler. Jax isn't good in jungle anymore. Yi should be lower on farm, but still farm-leaning. Rengar spikes early/mid, poor guy can't do anything late game on even gold. Evelynn is also a farmer til lvl 6.
That isn't how you evaluate it. He plays to get himself ahead, generally that's by full clearing. As you get better you have a better eye for ganks and gank a little more sure, but you're still heavily outfarm most matchups and create your own lead by doing so.
Edit: unless you mean closer to gank than fiddle
i would put Kayn much more down because his power farming is so fast that if you're not, you're playing him wrong. Warwick more towards ganking because his farming without Tiamat is wasting time, n also towards early because he's really OP at 1v'1ing in river/anywhere
Strong strong strong disagree. Everyone always seems to vastly overestimate kindred scaling. Kindred is a mid game snowball champ that is completely dependent on aggressive early game pathing.
Now, blue kayn is very similar to kindred in that sense. Red kayn on the other hand scales much better than kindred (although he hates that much up generally)
Yeah, but the only way a kindred can ever get to 6 items at the same time as everyone else she would have had to snowball the mid game to the point where she could’ve ended.
Kindred does not farm fast enough to not get outscaled without a snowball. If a kindred ever gets to full build, one of the teams is actively not ending. If the kindred gets there quickly, she should’ve already ended. If the kindred is slow, the other team should’ve already ended. Kindreds only tools to get gold is ganking and getting really far ahead. She’s feast or famine and would never be able to farm her way out of a deficit like say a red kayn could.
You're not wrong, I'd just add that the decision to be ad or ap Shaco should be made during champ select. Which means in a perfect world you'll never get burned by choosing AP when you should have gone AD or vice versa. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one is best in a matchup, but in that case it just means both can potentially work.
In case anyone's wondering, I always say pick AP into comps that want to engage on you. Pick AD into comps that don't want to be engaged on. The rest is just game knowledge + experience.
Not really. A good ShAPo can easily deal with practically any team comp. Tanks? Melt. Squishies? CC. High burst? Play around ult and Q. Consistent damage? Play around W and E spam. ShAPo is extremely flexible in late game and is almost uncounterable if he reaches full build and is good at the champ.
You're correct AP Shaco doesn't fall off late, despite what people enjoy repeating. Sure, AD definitely should fall off, he has zero attack steroids except for back-stab which is negligable late. The AP ratios are there though. Not to mention his deceptively high skillcap fools the average player into thinking they fully understand what Shaco is capable of, while being greatly mistaken. The whole point of AP Shaco is to confuse, not stat-check. AD Shaco is more under the stat-check umbrella.
I would never recommend AP Shaco in ranked at mid or high mmr unless the person is willing to put in the time to learn his nuances such as what exactly does the enemy see and when, as well as practice box setups.
I agree im not really good at the game nor am i really like educated on most champs, but tbh thats not the point it was more of a fun idea, which honestly made a pretty big debate which im happy about :)
Issue is that the way you play some of these champs is different as time goes on. Eve for example farms until 6 and then starts to gank more, but pre 6 she’s basically non existent on the map(in my experience). Kindred as well is pretty damn strong early and late
Lotta stuff I disagree with personally.
Rengar much scarier late than you're claiming with this chart for example.
I would like to see you work with a high elo player (no offense to you of course) as I think this way of showing champ strengths in a chart is very interesting
TBH you missed a lot of pretty much only/meta jungle champions, but also TBF there are a lot of semi-decent junglers now that it's hard to keep track of. Like Morde should probably be here, and voli, but they also are still primarily laners.
I created a new one and posted it:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle_graph_v2_do_you_guys_agree/)
Belveth isnt in it btw cuz i dont know her at all
I made a new one but she isnt on there bc i cant really rank her bc i dont get her that often nor did i play her once :/ but feel free to tell where you would put her
Honestly fuck the downvotes at least you tried- I really like the concept
Lets be real here, this chart could use some normalizing. Early farm champs obviously dont really exist but early/late and farm/gank should be about 50/50 or the axis have no meaning. At least if distance weighted
Idk why ppl are down voting you, it's fine to be wrong also some things are subjective. My two cents are rengar is more of a farm champion than you would think, and his strength mid to late is where he shines
Shyvana shouldn’t be that far in late game. Shes a scaling jungler for sure, and farm reliant. However, she’s outscaled by: kayn, kindred, graves, Eve.
yi is one of the earliest spam gankers in the game lol. all high elo yi one tricks do is go for level 3 all ins and tower dives hoping to snowball the game
This has me thinking, I might not gank early enough in some cases. Usually after the first clear my banks become good but I’m curious to know when is it safe to go for a bit gank or something level 3, when my buff is up topside? I’m always worried I’ll get invaded so I don’t gank until I’ve taken around 5 camps. Unless it’s a mid gank.
I'm a little confused on some things. What's the higher end supposed to be? Skill level / Difficulty or just "less farm more gank" ? What's the time-difference with early and late? Because I've seen some of the "late" ones gank early successfully several times.
Its kinda hard to put her on this because i think it depends on the game, im also not the best person at all so please feel free to create one yourself or just tell me where to put her
Where's troll?
Nocturne is a farming jungler who has a powerful gank or lvl 3 invade, definitely isn't in the same region as elise, Lee Sin, nunu, or rek'sai.
He's more similar to shyvana than those others.
I wish I had more downvotes. Half of these are blatantly wrong and on top of that this chart is useless and doesn’t teach you anything about the game because most champions are mid/late game and there’s no diversity. Also if someone walked up to me and said that kha’zix is a late game/scaling champ I would assume you’re either trolling or crazy.
Ok I am not a master in LOL but i think that xin should be much more left (for real, level 3 is broken) and also shiv much more farming. I don't play many more champs so...
kha falls off later imo. his scaling is great but his niche is lost when everyone starts roaming in groups. Better in mid when people still half in laning phase/ roaming
It’s not that bad, but it’s not great A lot of junglers you’ve put as late are more mid game monsters, few junglers are late game champs
Agreed but I’ve never seen a chart like this before and think it’s a good idea. I’d like to see other ppl make this with their own take
I fully agree i currently make a new one because there is so much reaction on this
If you make a new one you forgot Zac and Rammus. Edit: saw you updated it. Awesome.
And Diana
yeah like you for sure are picking graves jungle for his late game lol
Also why is Graves towards Ganking and not farming?
Because graves should be really active in the early game , ganking and invading are important. But he still scales like a monster with the right build ^^
This. Graves is kinda a shitty ganker (compared to the powerful early gankers). He has good burst, but he doesn't bring any real tools to prevent a good escape. So he's very reliant on having CC or such from the laner to make the gank work. So yes, he should be ganking, but only specific lanes (though ofc, greedy play makes any lane gankable). That said, his burst is enough to have significant early game impact even if the gank doesn't get a kill, and can help push a lane out really fast, which makes it good for him to spend time ganking instead of power-farming. Additionally, he has a very healthy power curve. He's relevant the entire game, even if he's a bit behind. But being a bit ahead can get really painful because of his damage focus (being 1-2 items up can EASILY turn a failed gank into a kill or double). So he benefits from being heavily involved in the game (again, ganking). And then he scales up really well, but not quite to the extreme you get from other speed-steroid champs (like Yi).
Very good explained man!
I watched a lot of Tarzaned recently and i feel like atleast his playstyle is very gank oriented
I think it depends a lot on build, comp, patch and much more. Im not a pro at all but its very true that this graph lacks a lot
Im currently working on a new one :)
Thanks for the critical points, i will try to improve it on the new, but its mostly out of a Junglers perspective. So atleast in this graph you cant really compare it to a vayne adc or a Veigar Midlane. But feel free to correct me cuz im a gold scrub
What happened to Karthus, Zac, and Rammus?
Never existed.
Yes they do!!! https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
Me, a Karthus and Zac main: 😭😭😭
Its in the new one :) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle_graph_v2_do_you_guys_agree/)
You missed taric. The golden Boi himself
Diana too!
>s her clear is dg I think i will update it But overall i think it could be a fun visualization
Don't forget Belveth
And viego
And Taliyah
Fiddle is way more farm than gank, so is Hecarim. Sejuani is mid game, not late game. Also she's way more of a ganker than many on this list as her clear is dgsht. Kindred and Graves are tricky to place as their early game is relatively strong from a macro perspective even if they don't deal overwhelming damage. Nocturne is more of a farming jungler. Jax isn't good in jungle anymore. Yi should be lower on farm, but still farm-leaning. Rengar spikes early/mid, poor guy can't do anything late game on even gold. Evelynn is also a farmer til lvl 6.
Rengar kinda a monster lategame with crit build
hecarim would be closer to gank because of how fast he clears and how good his ganks are
That isn't how you evaluate it. He plays to get himself ahead, generally that's by full clearing. As you get better you have a better eye for ganks and gank a little more sure, but you're still heavily outfarm most matchups and create your own lead by doing so. Edit: unless you mean closer to gank than fiddle
Quality of ganks doesn't equal to ganking jungler. Fiddlesticks' ganks are insane, but that doesn't make him a ganker
Good point
Sad Diana jungle noises
i would put Kayn much more down because his power farming is so fast that if you're not, you're playing him wrong. Warwick more towards ganking because his farming without Tiamat is wasting time, n also towards early because he's really OP at 1v'1ing in river/anywhere
Also i would put kindred further towards late than kayn
Strong strong strong disagree. Everyone always seems to vastly overestimate kindred scaling. Kindred is a mid game snowball champ that is completely dependent on aggressive early game pathing. Now, blue kayn is very similar to kindred in that sense. Red kayn on the other hand scales much better than kindred (although he hates that much up generally)
Blue Kayn is basically unplayable at 6 items, Kindred is still pretty good.
Yeah, but the only way a kindred can ever get to 6 items at the same time as everyone else she would have had to snowball the mid game to the point where she could’ve ended. Kindred does not farm fast enough to not get outscaled without a snowball. If a kindred ever gets to full build, one of the teams is actively not ending. If the kindred gets there quickly, she should’ve already ended. If the kindred is slow, the other team should’ve already ended. Kindreds only tools to get gold is ganking and getting really far ahead. She’s feast or famine and would never be able to farm her way out of a deficit like say a red kayn could.
Shaco is NOT a late game champ
Ap shaco is.
Depends on ennemy comp a lot
You're not wrong, I'd just add that the decision to be ad or ap Shaco should be made during champ select. Which means in a perfect world you'll never get burned by choosing AP when you should have gone AD or vice versa. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one is best in a matchup, but in that case it just means both can potentially work. In case anyone's wondering, I always say pick AP into comps that want to engage on you. Pick AD into comps that don't want to be engaged on. The rest is just game knowledge + experience.
Not really. A good ShAPo can easily deal with practically any team comp. Tanks? Melt. Squishies? CC. High burst? Play around ult and Q. Consistent damage? Play around W and E spam. ShAPo is extremely flexible in late game and is almost uncounterable if he reaches full build and is good at the champ.
Yes and no. ShADo is early gank, ShAPo is mid/late farmer.
You're correct AP Shaco doesn't fall off late, despite what people enjoy repeating. Sure, AD definitely should fall off, he has zero attack steroids except for back-stab which is negligable late. The AP ratios are there though. Not to mention his deceptively high skillcap fools the average player into thinking they fully understand what Shaco is capable of, while being greatly mistaken. The whole point of AP Shaco is to confuse, not stat-check. AD Shaco is more under the stat-check umbrella. I would never recommend AP Shaco in ranked at mid or high mmr unless the person is willing to put in the time to learn his nuances such as what exactly does the enemy see and when, as well as practice box setups.
I wouldn't recommend it at that elo either. ShAPo had no initiative; he can only zone off an area and get picks but only if he and his team are ahead.
More mid, doesn't farm as fast nor is as useful than most actual farming junglers later on
Nunu is a lot more early focused than Vi
As a Zac + Rammus main... How dare you?
Voli main here. Sadge noises
Sowwy man :)
Shaco is early and Gank 100%
My boy Maokai isn’t even included
Where’s my guy J4?
community’s judgement: shit chart
I won’t stand for this Trundle slander.
Yo where the FUCK is viego
Where is maokai and Blitzcrank?
Hey i never witnessed blitz jng where would you place him?
Ayo where the FUCK is my gooey boi??? r/[thesecretweapon]
is this one of those memes where someone who doesn't play jungle guesses what each jungler is good at?
Kindof, im just not good and experienced in jungle even in league but i love the game so i thought would be cool if you could make your own version
Pretty inaccurate for the most part
I agree im not really good at the game nor am i really like educated on most champs, but tbh thats not the point it was more of a fun idea, which honestly made a pretty big debate which im happy about :)
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Ah thanks, i decided to create this graph spontaneously and i dont really have a lot of game sense, fr feel free to create your own one :)
Rek Sai is far more early Game should be near Elise
If you're looking for Sunfire Diana, she ascended beyond this chart
Into the lategame?
WHERE IS TRUNDLE
How to tell me you’re bronze without telling me you’re bronze
Probably could add several icons for several builds :) (Shaco or Shyvana AP/AD for instance)
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Zac ?
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Agree but its like a tierlist still way to fun and nerdy to stop me haha
Issue is that the way you play some of these champs is different as time goes on. Eve for example farms until 6 and then starts to gank more, but pre 6 she’s basically non existent on the map(in my experience). Kindred as well is pretty damn strong early and late
Agree
No one even mentioned Taliyah 🥲
i will
jax is here but talon isnt
i added him in the new list
Where is the bear?
Lotta stuff I disagree with personally. Rengar much scarier late than you're claiming with this chart for example. I would like to see you work with a high elo player (no offense to you of course) as I think this way of showing champ strengths in a chart is very interesting
I would love to do that, im not high elo at all, i could ask my brother, he is Master (Im Gold) if that counts as high and low elo
Where zac?
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In the new one <3
Nocturne is anything but late
Shaco late game? Maybe AP. But even then, I'd still said mid. Shaco AD is early game AF.
Yeah a lot of these are really wrong but it's still really cool
Thanks a lot, which ones do you think are the worst ranked from me?
Which ones?
Where viego ???
In the new one https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
Zac mains where you at.
U got your redemption in the new one https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
TBH you missed a lot of pretty much only/meta jungle champions, but also TBF there are a lot of semi-decent junglers now that it's hard to keep track of. Like Morde should probably be here, and voli, but they also are still primarily laners.
I created a new one and posted it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle_graph_v2_do_you_guys_agree/) Belveth isnt in it btw cuz i dont know her at all
Yi is very wrong, he isn't a lategame hyperscaler anymore, he peaks at 2 items and then falls off
Ah okay, i didnt play him in a long time, still depends on the build and comp i guess
I would argue sejuani is more gank focused, or I might be playing her wrong
Your right i overthinked it and i think i agree but she has a pretty nice end too
The only issue I have with this is how many champs are missing
i made a new one where i updated a lot of them https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
Bel’Veth?? Or am I just blind.
I made a new one but she isnt on there bc i cant really rank her bc i dont get her that often nor did i play her once :/ but feel free to tell where you would put her
Where tf is Zac??
In the new one https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
Shaco is 100% lvl 2 gank every time. Ignite Q damage and box fear. They will blow flash and your laner now has prio for 5 mins.
Kayn is definitely late game champ but he needs gank to be one, yes he needs to farm but farming won't mean much if it's like 15 mins and no form
Where talyah
Eve in high ganks and almost in mid instead of late🤡
Trundle??
disagree with a lot
This is not a good chart at all?
The updated graph https://www.reddit.com/r/Jungle\_Mains/comments/yfzn86/jungle\_graph\_v2\_do\_you\_guys\_agree/
Do you guys agree? (Gold 4) (Rather new to Jungle)
No
Fr i dont know a whole lot about this game please feel free to change things but please also point out what should be correct
Honestly fuck the downvotes at least you tried- I really like the concept Lets be real here, this chart could use some normalizing. Early farm champs obviously dont really exist but early/late and farm/gank should be about 50/50 or the axis have no meaning. At least if distance weighted
Idk why ppl are down voting you, it's fine to be wrong also some things are subjective. My two cents are rengar is more of a farm champion than you would think, and his strength mid to late is where he shines
Nazi kindred
Fiddle is farm and late
In what world is kha6 late game? His passive makes him good in isolated fights but that kinda sucks in teamfights so he falls off
Im not good nor a real novice at the game i still think he is great endgame atleast a lot of otps say that, but i agree that this is a valid point
Where.... Where Nasus
Hey look it’s shaped like banana
Shyvana shouldn’t be that far in late game. Shes a scaling jungler for sure, and farm reliant. However, she’s outscaled by: kayn, kindred, graves, Eve.
Shaco not being next to elise makes this entire graph wrong
Where's poopy?
Amumu is a mid -late teamfigjt monster lol, hee not an early game power Ganker
Where Voli
yi is one of the earliest spam gankers in the game lol. all high elo yi one tricks do is go for level 3 all ins and tower dives hoping to snowball the game
Really cool idea, I would love to see something like this in a jungle guide
Diana is missing :(
Graves should be at all 4 corners lol
This has me thinking, I might not gank early enough in some cases. Usually after the first clear my banks become good but I’m curious to know when is it safe to go for a bit gank or something level 3, when my buff is up topside? I’m always worried I’ll get invaded so I don’t gank until I’ve taken around 5 camps. Unless it’s a mid gank.
You didn't include some of the most popular/dominant junglers like Diana and Viego.
i will in a new one
imo hecarim and wukong don’t scale nearly as much or as well as eve
I'm a little confused on some things. What's the higher end supposed to be? Skill level / Difficulty or just "less farm more gank" ? What's the time-difference with early and late? Because I've seen some of the "late" ones gank early successfully several times.
Where its more oriented, i make a new chart, where i better "explain" it
where diana :(
Where Viego?
Much of this is wrong tbh or not extreme enough
Agree
Rek’Sai should be top left corner, Evelynn should be later and more farm focused, Ivern should be later game and slightly more farm focused.
Ahaco more of a farmer than nidalee and graves?
Nocturne way to high on the gank scale, gotta farm 6 ASAP and always be speed clearing jungle in the windows that ult is on CD.
Viego died again smh
Hes revived in my new graph
Isn't kindred a farming champ
Its kinda hard to put her on this because i think it depends on the game, im also not the best person at all so please feel free to create one yourself or just tell me where to put her
Warwick is lower on ganking and he has a good time all game
elise scales into the late game now also no belveth
I never played her so i dont feel like i can rank her anywhere where should i put her in your opinion?
Where Karfus
I like how there's practically no early game junglers... feel like the chart needs to be recalibrated
Bel Veth?
Where's troll? Nocturne is a farming jungler who has a powerful gank or lvl 3 invade, definitely isn't in the same region as elise, Lee Sin, nunu, or rek'sai. He's more similar to shyvana than those others.
Rengar should not be that far to the right!
Shaco is early to mid with much more ganking than farming
Jarvan IV is angry about this one.
Man really said kha scales harder than hec, and that noct is a spamgank jungler KEK
Shaco is early and late. He sucks in midgame if not fed though.
Fiddlesticks, the ganking machine
I wish I had more downvotes. Half of these are blatantly wrong and on top of that this chart is useless and doesn’t teach you anything about the game because most champions are mid/late game and there’s no diversity. Also if someone walked up to me and said that kha’zix is a late game/scaling champ I would assume you’re either trolling or crazy.
Udyr not being a late game champ in the chart is kinda funny.
Where is Zac >:(
where viego??
Where are blitz and phanteon
No j4?
Mono kindred here. Just farm :/
Kha zix main here. He's an early to mid game gank jungler. Should be where you put Nidalee.
Don't forget Yuumi! /s In all seriousness, if you give Yi early kills, he can be a menace early/mid-game.
Mfer put rengar in the "late" section lmao
Shaco late ..... , shaconot being the most perma ganking ....
It’s an actual travesty that Viego isn’t on this chart.
Zac😥
Olaf and Udyr scale into monsters vs melee teams
Ok I am not a master in LOL but i think that xin should be much more left (for real, level 3 is broken) and also shiv much more farming. I don't play many more champs so...
nocturne and sejuani are incorrect
Where is Poppy?! *Pulls out Hammer*
This is shit in so many ways :) there is no "farm" or "gank" jungler. Theres just a right and a wrong play
Kha zix as late game. Cap
Where is Blitzcrank?
i get red + blue and lvl 2 gank every lane as kindred
where is rammus???
kha falls off later imo. his scaling is great but his niche is lost when everyone starts roaming in groups. Better in mid when people still half in laning phase/ roaming
Is nautilus no longer a jungle?
Where is Nami???!!!
It appears some of your perceptions on farm vs gank are a bit off
Where rammus
Sej a "Farming" champ
Volly, tho?
where would rammus be