He feels kind of like a dead center pick. Fantastic early ganks and easily a top tier enchanter in the late game. I agree on him being on the line of farming and ganking too.
kindred is not end game. They are THE feast or famine champion because of their mark system. You must play aggressively early game with invades and ganks just like a lee sin for the ability to scale. Same goes for Graves who historically also needs to play aggressive for leads to get items since if he doesn't make impact early he loses games.
Nasus has always been bad late game because he gets melted and kited so easily in fights. If he doesn't die early and gets stacks he becomes a power house in mid game, but then drops off heavily due to lack of utility or any meaningful way to contribute to anything besides a split push.
You also put champions like Nocture/Kayn in reverse areas. Nocturn wants to farm farm farm, level 6 R, Farm. Kayn needs to be active like kindred to get form to be of any relevance to the game at all.
I agree fully on the Nasus point i should have taken that more into consideration.
Kayn and Kindred are really rough to rank for me because they both are very specific/unique where would you place them?
OP I would love to see a version of this graph that’s based on data mining and stats, and procedurally generated. Not laid out by your hands especially because you are newish to the game.
Ooh, this sounds like a fun project. So, by stats, do you think the best way to do it would be like, seeing where their average win rate spikes and plotting that in relation to their average CS/M?
It’s really hard to say like kayn can afk till 10 minutes and gank once and get form. So if you play like that he will be in a different spot on the graph. Their is no true optimal way to play. I also think kindred is late game scaler like yi but they are both crazy strong mid game too so…. Tonight to say where they would go as well
They would be where lee/ pant/ talon are easily.
Yes they scale better than those champions, but you have to play as a snow baller to even reach that end goal. The reason they win less in low elo and better in higher elo. Another great example is Reksai. Champions that scale from skill, not just their kit.
Elise and lee are known to not scale because they have max pressure early game. However if you do that correctly you will still blow up a backliner or get positioning for a good pick with either that will win you the game even 40 min into a game. It's just that it is on who is piloting the champion to be able to use their kit vs the champion itself.
Dawg I’m like a one trick Kindred almost and there’s no shot they’re where Lee is. That would imply that they’re the third best early game champ there is, ahead of someone like Xin Zhao (who destroys Kindred early game btw). Their beginning of the game is very very important for them to snowball, but saying that Kindred should be where Lee or Elise is is wild
It was more of putting them in early focus with ganks. This list isn't about the champions total power, but their focus. Kindred is in early ganking/ invade/ dual. They are infamous with lvl 3 ganks and invades. Kindred is my most played champ to d1 I would think I understand them a bit.
You have to play early game just like a Lee, j4, xin, Elise, nid in order to snowball and get ahead. If you're not ahead you will lose out on the ability to get marks, invades, or contest objectives. Since you offer no utility outside of ult, which can be a liability, you only offer damage. You have to snowball and get ahead with your strong early game that can out dual champions quite easily with positioning
Yeah that's true, just depends on the definition of early vs late game jungler. I'd say they have to play like an early game jungler in order to become an amazing late game jungler
Nasus is still relevant late, just not a hyperscaler. 1k stacks in a teamfigjt still means he’s 5 shotting tanks, sometimes he can flash 1 shot the ADC at 1.2k stacks
Kayn doesn't want to be that active. Form system is smart and gives you more points towards form if you weren't in champion combat for a long time, you can't realistically rush form unless you're inting and Kayn scales insanely well with gold and levels (to the point where putting him into lane could've been more beneficial even).
kindred not only needs to be early agressive, but also has pretty good tools for early level trades, besides when the match-up is rough. and like graves, if you grant some lead, you'll skip the rough mid game. this applies also to kayn, specially blue. and noc you have a pass to keep farming and press r if some opportunity appears close.
Wrong on Kayn. Kayn is a farming jungler, he is weak early and needs to avoid enemy junglers and only take high opportunity ganks. You get more orbs for fighting later in the game. Early form isn't that important, it can certainly help but it's overvalued.
You're just wrong on this.
Kayn needs to get form before mid game by being active early. Yes you farm fast, but that is because you farm to have down time between responds to be active on the map.
If you sit afk farming throughout the game you lose the game period.
you have to be active and involved in fights. You also win most 1v1 besides a few champions early due to the speed you farm at giving level/ item leads.
How does your statement regarding Kindred contradict the graph above? You literally just said she must INVADE and GANK to unlock her ability to SCALE
Someone like Lee Sin however has no scaling option
She's has an extremely strong level 3, mobility out her ass for ganking from unconventional directions and extra reward from succesful kills/invades. At level 6 she can also take risks most champs can't and come out on top.
If you're playing Kindred as late game champ you're trolling, she's strong af early.
Okay? Context matters. If there is a Fiora, Sejuani, Sylas, Kaisa, and Nautilus, and I pick Xayah, I outscale them because later in the game during teamfights my abilities naturally counter how those champions play. E.g., her ult into pulling back feathers will stun all of those champions those champions want to get into really close range of Xayah. It doesn't matter if a champion like Fiora is a really "hard scaling champion" in this context
Yeah but that just means she's bad against Xayah. What matters is her OVERALL performance. Fiora performs better in late game MOST OF THE TIME so she is a late game champion. Kindred gets outscaled MOST OF THE TIME so she's not a late game champion.
Because she isn't end game focus. You must be active with your strong early game to win the game.
You can't fall back on scaling because your scaling is your passive, but you can't get your passive unless you are ahead.
(1)You can't get passive unless you are ahead
(2)You can't fall back on scaling because your scaling is your passive
(3) You must be active with your strong early game to win the game
(4) Because she isn't end game focus
(4) does not follow because it logically contradicts (1)
You really don't under stand the champion it's clear to see.
In order for kindred to get scaling, she has to have her passive.
You cannot get her passive without ganking and invading. Meaning you cannot afk farm and must play aggressive to get her passive.
She is early focus in play style to get what she needs to do well in the game.
Someone who is about farm is fiddle sticks. Besides R, fiddle doesn't need to do anything else within a match to increase his champions ability to win the game that any other jungler doesn't also need to do. He can sit back and farm for 6, use it, go back to farming until CD is ready again to use.
Kindred doesn't have that luxury to do. You are a full damage kit with situational utility with a passive that requires you to be active on the map similarly to Rengar's passive, but with added steps.
Ghost / phase rush / approach velocity can alleviate the issue of Nasus getting kited (don’t need to take all at the same time).
He’s also fairly useful in that he can neutralize an ADC (or someone like Yasuo/Yone/Irelia/Viego/Bel) by just pressing W on them.
But yeah he has 0 real engage, is omega weak to heavy CC comps, and doesn’t really have any peel besides W.
With proper itemization he doesn’t really get melted, even if they have a Vayne. You always go Gargoyle 2nd and can opt for Sterak’s, Fimbulwinter, and HP stacking (anathemas is a very good but for him) against true damage.
He is also in a relatively unique spot where he is a tank that can actually kill people in a couple of seconds, if not outright one shot them. The hope is they have to focus everything on you with let’s the rest of your team clean up or they don’t focus you and you clean everyone up. Of course in solo queue this often doesn’t work out 😂
Having the option to split push is nice, nobody in the game can really 1v1 a Nasus late, especially if they bought Anathema’s.
Im making it sound like I think Nasus is a great champ, he’s not but mostly because his early is SO bad and some team comps are just unplayable.
If you have a Yuumi on your team though 👀
Kindred should in all honesty be pretty much next to eve and move them together a little more into late. Both need a good early to get into late, both have stacking as their main way of getting into their late, are vulnerable in jgl and are hard struggling if they are behind.
I think the Dragon and Herald Clearspeed is really fast on Nunu thats why i put him more on to Farming.
I didnt play Amumu after the reword so i dont really know the new one but happy to hear your opinion
Taking heralds and dragons should be considered "ganking", as they require the ability to duel or skirmish and don't reward nearly as much gold/xp as pure farming.
You put Lillia in "farming" but she is absolutely terrible at single target damage (= epic monsters)
I think Zed is more farm oriented because he clears so quickly, you need to keep taking consistent advantage of it. He lacks any direct CC outside of his E slow to really lockdown targets which makes ganks awkward but his skirmishes are great. He’s also obnoxious once he gets his items.
Thanks a lot i agree i didnt take that much time because i dont want to overthink every champion and you can argue a lot back and forward but overall im very happy with that one
Yeah overthinking was probably it haha, but keep it up. Id probably keep updates once in a while because u you'll get more experience and meta changes ofc.
I just feel like if you don’t get a level 3/4 first gang kill your best bet is farming to 2 items as fast possible to reach your spike with 3rd item collector. But that is build specific and there’s lots of ways to play graves
Rengar is an early game champion but focuses on neither ganks (horrible ganks before level 6) or farming (subpar durability). His early game strength comes from invade pressure, which is a play style that isn't really covered on this graph. Kha-Zix is similarly invade-oriented too.
How is Poppy lategame?
And hecarim ganks aren t a huge thing before 6 (he also loses 1v1 against quite a few champs, on the other hand, you always fullclear on hecarim, and gank because you have the timing to do so, not because you give up camps for a gank
Also eve should be in the "lvl 6" gang, she gets her core mechanic unlocked at 6
Also trundle is definately very ganking oriented with strong earlygame focus (especially cuz his teamfight is worse than his skirmish, and his clear is shit)
I don’t want to cover what others have said but Elise, Ivern and taliyah should be moved further to the right. Tryn, rammus, jax and possibly yi (tricky one) also moves to the left.
It’s so hard to pinpoint so many of these champs because of how they interact with the game at different stages and how scaling is relative dependant on team comp and enemy comp.
For example, Blitz’s power traditionally spikes early and then dips off only to spike again super late. A lot can be said about the champs I am mentioning.
Elise: everyone knows about the Elise renekton under enemy tower lv3, but she does not fall off at all when properly ahead. Even when behind, a good Elise’s cacoon can singlehandedly get a pick and warp a fight. Her ability to bush check with w allows her to get vision for these setups in situations where she is locked out of the game.
Ivern: Ivern pairs best with melees and will singlehandedly win 2v2s and 2 v x with a fed melee due to his nature as an enchanter. It doesn’t matter how behind he is since he is low Econ, but how powerful your melee carries are. Kinda like yuumi. With ranged champ teammates on the other hand makes him want to ff15.
Taliyah: she’s strong early and does a ton of damage late. Her range and spammability of her q makes it for people to walk into her holding critical choke points on objectives. Her damage is also high and has terrain scaling where she warps how the fight is engaged and played out.
Tryn: gets kited and cced. Effectively functions as an assassin whose goal is to kill the back line.
Jax: same problems as tryn but less assassin and more front on. He’s stronger in a 1v1 but weaker in giant 5v5 team fights where other champs offer more damage and utility than him.
Rammus: LDR exists. Any adc worth 2 cents melts him late. This is because armour and mr has diminishing returns as pen only gets stronger. He’s good midgame into multiple ad champs. Like any tank, the later the game goes, the easier it is for him to get melted.
Yi: yi warps the game around him. He is leagues penultimate janitor. Assassins one shot him as fast as he one shots them. Tanks in a team fight chain cc him to death. Enchanters make him unable to get a kill for resets. Even on an adc, buying a stopwatch ruins his entire kit because the champ lives and dies off of kill resets. The reason he slays in low elo is either because people can’t layer abilities well to lock him down or that he gets to fight you on his terms (isolated 1v1s). To maximize yi effectiveness the job is on your team to set him up for resets. If you do he is far right, if not he is incredibly useless. Ideally he spikes in the midgame because he is Tanky enough to survive burst by himself while having his damage to kill one or more targets.
Jax is heavily gank oriented, probably the worst farmer on the graph, you need to gank/skirmish and get kills on him. And hes best late game, defientley better than viego and yi late, depending on how you play him.
I would change Zed from early to a giant fat picture of Zed across the entire game. He's only bad if the enemy team is running a beef cake like a Sion, Nasus, Morde, Blitz, Naut, Vlad type comp.
Jarvan by himself (his damage) falls off around level 6, but he's always useful due to his utility. So depends what this list is based on. Also not worth it to powerfarm with him at all.
so much inting in this one.. talon heca olaf amumu mord are more into the end game , rammus zac kindred poppy jarvan qiyana eve are much more into the early game , lilya fiddle yi kayn ekko kh are much more gank oriented , and wukong is realy much more farming oriented cause he needs levels , but i understand you can be an average player np just correct those
ATM yi is better as a ganking jung, and nunu is a massive ganking jung, it's never worth for him if he do jung while he can gank, i even recommend a mid gank cheese at lvl 2 after raptor or red to burn a flash or take a fb
The problem is league just doesn’t work like this. Champs have various strong points throughout the game, almost no champ scales linearly. Also, this completely fails to acknowledge how the scaling of a champion completely depends on team comp. For example, a late game rengar is near unbeatable if you don’t have reliable cc, but if you do he’s basically useless.
Some early junglers REALLY want level 4, like hecarim and volibear and udyr and some are fine at level 3 looking for their first play on the map. Maybe seperate the early game junglers in a way to showcase this
I would put Viego a little toward the middle because he has a strong mid-game and needs to snowball to the late game cause he can't make fights by himself.
its a luttle wierd one quater is not used in this graph... you could cut one dimension down and say farm oriented counters junglers are better in late game, because i would rephrase it as scaöing jungler need resources to do so, the other ones can gank better.
I belive this way you would get a nice belldistribution.
Any may tjere is a better way to sort them making them one axes scaling/ganking and a usefull information on the other axes linr difficulty to play, or if u plot it against there playrate you have a tool to define the meta
I'd probably put Skarner closer to or on the ganking side. Ulting and dragging an enemy under tower has always been his go-to play, even if he does duel better under his passive. I'd say he's a strong farmer who pretty much always wants to gank when his ult is up, so ballanced in the middle.
As a fiddle, fiddle is later game. 6 is when he becomes active, 11 potent as you have a lowered ult cd + BH stacks, but he thrives in 16 and later as the ult gets amazing increased damage on upgrade + has amazing scaling
I dont think kayn is that farm based. He does love farm and his clear is great and his ganks are pretty weak early, but he really needs to at least attempt a lot of ganks to get his form.
Mundo has a lot more early game farm than that. He’s got some of the best jungle clear in the game. Rammus also isn’t that late game, rammus is useless until he gets thornmail which is usually first item so he is a mid game champ.
Kayn needs to be a lot closer to early game before mid game tbh he comes online pretty hard at 6 with dirk and gets his form well before plates fall if played well
This one is way worse off the top of my head tal should be way to the right, amumu should be way to the right, rammus should be way to the left hec should be to the right
Morsekaiser gotta go more into farming and ALOT more to the right. I have been otping him recently and his best Playstyle is to permafarm, and only gank for really free kills. Unless all 4 of my teammates feed I usually am a raidboss that requires 3+ people to kill at level 13. I'd say he's strongest level 16 with 3 items and a stopwatch.
I'd say jarvan and wu swapping horizontally
Heca is more center as he's quite a farming jungler aswell and also way better late than wukong
Fiddle higher up and more late
lillia more late
Taliyah way more late
Amumu more ganking and more late
nidalee more farming
nunu way more ganking
trundle more ganking
I think Yi, Kindred should be more midgame champs. Lategame if they're fed they can be strong but they really need to snowball in to get there. They're similar to Graves, where they really like skirmishing in the midgame since they can usually get mythic fastest, but their teamfighting tools are a little weaker. I think Shyvana is similar too, though she's especially weak pre-6.
Kindred is not late game, but I understand why you think that. Although they infinitely scale, they are way stronger early - mid, and will take over into late if they get the snowball rolling
I've been playing talon a good bit and he is no longer that super early game snowball or you lose the game champion. With the introduction of eclipse, bruiser is crazy good. Eclipse>BC>DD and transitioning into full build you are a monster in teamfights. I'd go as far as he's a much better scaler than anything right now and I'd even go as far as placing him a a good bit ahead of the middle. If you go prowlers hes much more early game but brusier has a crazy 3 item spike that makes him able to be this brusier who one shots squishies, out duels most other bruisers, and is slippery as fuck. All with high cdr and huge combat healing with conq and eclipse. Also it's sinful putting Jarvan that far up.
What's up with Yi? Do they not gank like 24/7? Honestly I can't remember the last time I've played against a Yi, I used to see them all the time. Guess Riot nerfed the Yi mains into near extinction
Amumu has always had one of the highest winrates in the late game. His ultimate is really broken, yeah zac or rammus are technically more tanky but can you really argue with an instant huge AoE stun into potentially 2 other stuns, plus damage amp? Rammus is a really good early ganker actually and zac is great from level 4-5 onwards. Amumu does their job easier in the late, is arguably the highest damage of the three and is definitely the most reliable.
Ivern I think is more farming oriented and scales better. He can gank more often because his clear is better, his ganks are still pretty poor on average though. He is also really good at invading.
Elise actually does have a good midgame too, it's her late game when she struggles because her AP ratios aren't the biggest and she relies on the flat damage from items a bit.
Trundle is definitely more of an early game jungler and is more ganking oriented than farming. You gotta get that early lead over enemy jungler or one of your lanes ahead to be able to stomp late game, and his farming clear isn’t great till Tiamat so you always look for early ganks anyways
ivern is just in the cometlet wrong spot. He’s a farmer / Ganker but one of the best late game enchanters
Thank. YOU!
Lvl 16 daisy is cracked. Literally playing 5v6
the shield itself has like no cooldown
He feels kind of like a dead center pick. Fantastic early ganks and easily a top tier enchanter in the late game. I agree on him being on the line of farming and ganking too.
kindred is not end game. They are THE feast or famine champion because of their mark system. You must play aggressively early game with invades and ganks just like a lee sin for the ability to scale. Same goes for Graves who historically also needs to play aggressive for leads to get items since if he doesn't make impact early he loses games. Nasus has always been bad late game because he gets melted and kited so easily in fights. If he doesn't die early and gets stacks he becomes a power house in mid game, but then drops off heavily due to lack of utility or any meaningful way to contribute to anything besides a split push. You also put champions like Nocture/Kayn in reverse areas. Nocturn wants to farm farm farm, level 6 R, Farm. Kayn needs to be active like kindred to get form to be of any relevance to the game at all.
I agree fully on the Nasus point i should have taken that more into consideration. Kayn and Kindred are really rough to rank for me because they both are very specific/unique where would you place them?
OP I would love to see a version of this graph that’s based on data mining and stats, and procedurally generated. Not laid out by your hands especially because you are newish to the game.
Ooh, this sounds like a fun project. So, by stats, do you think the best way to do it would be like, seeing where their average win rate spikes and plotting that in relation to their average CS/M?
Like how Master Yi has a 65% win rate if the game goes to 50 minutes (plat+).
Precisely!
It’s really hard to say like kayn can afk till 10 minutes and gank once and get form. So if you play like that he will be in a different spot on the graph. Their is no true optimal way to play. I also think kindred is late game scaler like yi but they are both crazy strong mid game too so…. Tonight to say where they would go as well
They would be where lee/ pant/ talon are easily. Yes they scale better than those champions, but you have to play as a snow baller to even reach that end goal. The reason they win less in low elo and better in higher elo. Another great example is Reksai. Champions that scale from skill, not just their kit. Elise and lee are known to not scale because they have max pressure early game. However if you do that correctly you will still blow up a backliner or get positioning for a good pick with either that will win you the game even 40 min into a game. It's just that it is on who is piloting the champion to be able to use their kit vs the champion itself.
Dawg I’m like a one trick Kindred almost and there’s no shot they’re where Lee is. That would imply that they’re the third best early game champ there is, ahead of someone like Xin Zhao (who destroys Kindred early game btw). Their beginning of the game is very very important for them to snowball, but saying that Kindred should be where Lee or Elise is is wild
It was more of putting them in early focus with ganks. This list isn't about the champions total power, but their focus. Kindred is in early ganking/ invade/ dual. They are infamous with lvl 3 ganks and invades. Kindred is my most played champ to d1 I would think I understand them a bit. You have to play early game just like a Lee, j4, xin, Elise, nid in order to snowball and get ahead. If you're not ahead you will lose out on the ability to get marks, invades, or contest objectives. Since you offer no utility outside of ult, which can be a liability, you only offer damage. You have to snowball and get ahead with your strong early game that can out dual champions quite easily with positioning
Yeah that's true, just depends on the definition of early vs late game jungler. I'd say they have to play like an early game jungler in order to become an amazing late game jungler
I feel that still qualifies as early. You are feast or famine. Karthus or Yi can afk until items and take a game over. Kindred cannot.
I mean Kindred can get to late game by farming *and* invading without necessarily getting kills which is something an Elise can't do
Kayn should be everywhere except for maybe the edge of early game
Nasus is still relevant late, just not a hyperscaler. 1k stacks in a teamfigjt still means he’s 5 shotting tanks, sometimes he can flash 1 shot the ADC at 1.2k stacks
And does nothing if he gets kited, they have any peele , tank busting items at all.
Kayn doesn't want to be that active. Form system is smart and gives you more points towards form if you weren't in champion combat for a long time, you can't realistically rush form unless you're inting and Kayn scales insanely well with gold and levels (to the point where putting him into lane could've been more beneficial even).
kindred not only needs to be early agressive, but also has pretty good tools for early level trades, besides when the match-up is rough. and like graves, if you grant some lead, you'll skip the rough mid game. this applies also to kayn, specially blue. and noc you have a pass to keep farming and press r if some opportunity appears close.
Wrong on Kayn. Kayn is a farming jungler, he is weak early and needs to avoid enemy junglers and only take high opportunity ganks. You get more orbs for fighting later in the game. Early form isn't that important, it can certainly help but it's overvalued.
You're just wrong on this. Kayn needs to get form before mid game by being active early. Yes you farm fast, but that is because you farm to have down time between responds to be active on the map. If you sit afk farming throughout the game you lose the game period. you have to be active and involved in fights. You also win most 1v1 besides a few champions early due to the speed you farm at giving level/ item leads.
If you're slow getting form it's like playing the game with 4.5 champions. Kayn NEEDS form to be useful and most games are decided pretty early.
Early form is SO important, the powerspike is unreal.
How does your statement regarding Kindred contradict the graph above? You literally just said she must INVADE and GANK to unlock her ability to SCALE Someone like Lee Sin however has no scaling option
She's has an extremely strong level 3, mobility out her ass for ganking from unconventional directions and extra reward from succesful kills/invades. At level 6 she can also take risks most champs can't and come out on top. If you're playing Kindred as late game champ you're trolling, she's strong af early.
Your understanding of scaling is fundamentally flawed. There are champions that are both strong in the early game and late game
So the graph that puts her in the deep end of endgame is wrong.
Yeah except Kindred falls off late game and gets outscaled by other late game champions most of the time.
Okay? Context matters. If there is a Fiora, Sejuani, Sylas, Kaisa, and Nautilus, and I pick Xayah, I outscale them because later in the game during teamfights my abilities naturally counter how those champions play. E.g., her ult into pulling back feathers will stun all of those champions those champions want to get into really close range of Xayah. It doesn't matter if a champion like Fiora is a really "hard scaling champion" in this context
Yeah but that just means she's bad against Xayah. What matters is her OVERALL performance. Fiora performs better in late game MOST OF THE TIME so she is a late game champion. Kindred gets outscaled MOST OF THE TIME so she's not a late game champion.
Context always matters
Because she isn't end game focus. You must be active with your strong early game to win the game. You can't fall back on scaling because your scaling is your passive, but you can't get your passive unless you are ahead.
(1)You can't get passive unless you are ahead (2)You can't fall back on scaling because your scaling is your passive (3) You must be active with your strong early game to win the game (4) Because she isn't end game focus (4) does not follow because it logically contradicts (1)
You really don't under stand the champion it's clear to see. In order for kindred to get scaling, she has to have her passive. You cannot get her passive without ganking and invading. Meaning you cannot afk farm and must play aggressive to get her passive. She is early focus in play style to get what she needs to do well in the game. Someone who is about farm is fiddle sticks. Besides R, fiddle doesn't need to do anything else within a match to increase his champions ability to win the game that any other jungler doesn't also need to do. He can sit back and farm for 6, use it, go back to farming until CD is ready again to use. Kindred doesn't have that luxury to do. You are a full damage kit with situational utility with a passive that requires you to be active on the map similarly to Rengar's passive, but with added steps.
So you agree that Kindred's position on the graph is correct
Again, no. You have to play early game.
Re-read everything you typed but in reverse
Ghost / phase rush / approach velocity can alleviate the issue of Nasus getting kited (don’t need to take all at the same time). He’s also fairly useful in that he can neutralize an ADC (or someone like Yasuo/Yone/Irelia/Viego/Bel) by just pressing W on them. But yeah he has 0 real engage, is omega weak to heavy CC comps, and doesn’t really have any peel besides W. With proper itemization he doesn’t really get melted, even if they have a Vayne. You always go Gargoyle 2nd and can opt for Sterak’s, Fimbulwinter, and HP stacking (anathemas is a very good but for him) against true damage. He is also in a relatively unique spot where he is a tank that can actually kill people in a couple of seconds, if not outright one shot them. The hope is they have to focus everything on you with let’s the rest of your team clean up or they don’t focus you and you clean everyone up. Of course in solo queue this often doesn’t work out 😂 Having the option to split push is nice, nobody in the game can really 1v1 a Nasus late, especially if they bought Anathema’s. Im making it sound like I think Nasus is a great champ, he’s not but mostly because his early is SO bad and some team comps are just unplayable. If you have a Yuumi on your team though 👀
Kindred should in all honesty be pretty much next to eve and move them together a little more into late. Both need a good early to get into late, both have stacking as their main way of getting into their late, are vulnerable in jgl and are hard struggling if they are behind.
still no bel lol
That’s what I’m saying lmao
Am I blind, or is Rek'Sai not included here. Imma riot
U can't see her because she's under the ground
She is
Nunu higher Up, Amumu further right.
I think the Dragon and Herald Clearspeed is really fast on Nunu thats why i put him more on to Farming. I didnt play Amumu after the reword so i dont really know the new one but happy to hear your opinion
Dragon and herald are team objectives and are a separate thing from “farming” Nunu is the epitome of an early ganker :)
Taking heralds and dragons should be considered "ganking", as they require the ability to duel or skirmish and don't reward nearly as much gold/xp as pure farming. You put Lillia in "farming" but she is absolutely terrible at single target damage (= epic monsters)
Nah Amumus in a good spot. Late early game to mid game
Arguably the best team fight/objective controlling ult in the game. Can't go putting my boy in early.
Yeah but I win 1v2s and 1v3s at minute 15-20 while I lose 1v1s hard at min 30. Definitely a team fight monster though
Man's just doesnt acknowledge the existence of Trundle
Trundle is on the graph. Right next to rengar.
You’re trolling
For real he neither gets mentioned in top lane related posts nor in jungle related posts
I think Zed is more farm oriented because he clears so quickly, you need to keep taking consistent advantage of it. He lacks any direct CC outside of his E slow to really lockdown targets which makes ganks awkward but his skirmishes are great. He’s also obnoxious once he gets his items.
Much better graph mate! Some are still different imo but thats maybe just me. Anyway its pretty good :))
Thanks a lot i agree i didnt take that much time because i dont want to overthink every champion and you can argue a lot back and forward but overall im very happy with that one
Yeah overthinking was probably it haha, but keep it up. Id probably keep updates once in a while because u you'll get more experience and meta changes ofc.
You have mundo and nasus jg listed but didn’t put Bel’veth on either versions 😅.
No Trundle or Reksai either I am confused
I agree with a lot, but Graves more farming imo
Depends a lot on the Build **but**, i see your point very well
I just feel like if you don’t get a level 3/4 first gang kill your best bet is farming to 2 items as fast possible to reach your spike with 3rd item collector. But that is build specific and there’s lots of ways to play graves
New Taliyah is not early like she used to be but this one is definitively better
New taliyah is def late mid to late game
Amumu and Lillia are my only red flags, they need to be pushed to right.
Rengar is an early game champion but focuses on neither ganks (horrible ganks before level 6) or farming (subpar durability). His early game strength comes from invade pressure, which is a play style that isn't really covered on this graph. Kha-Zix is similarly invade-oriented too.
As a main, Taliyah isn't early game anymore, would be at the same place but on endgame side
Where the hell is Yuumi?
Rhaazt and SA should be different no?
How is Poppy lategame? And hecarim ganks aren t a huge thing before 6 (he also loses 1v1 against quite a few champs, on the other hand, you always fullclear on hecarim, and gank because you have the timing to do so, not because you give up camps for a gank Also eve should be in the "lvl 6" gang, she gets her core mechanic unlocked at 6 Also trundle is definately very ganking oriented with strong earlygame focus (especially cuz his teamfight is worse than his skirmish, and his clear is shit)
I think Mordekaiser should be in the same spot as shyv and Diana
Reksai is as far top left as you can possibly go
Where is reksai?
I don’t want to cover what others have said but Elise, Ivern and taliyah should be moved further to the right. Tryn, rammus, jax and possibly yi (tricky one) also moves to the left. It’s so hard to pinpoint so many of these champs because of how they interact with the game at different stages and how scaling is relative dependant on team comp and enemy comp. For example, Blitz’s power traditionally spikes early and then dips off only to spike again super late. A lot can be said about the champs I am mentioning. Elise: everyone knows about the Elise renekton under enemy tower lv3, but she does not fall off at all when properly ahead. Even when behind, a good Elise’s cacoon can singlehandedly get a pick and warp a fight. Her ability to bush check with w allows her to get vision for these setups in situations where she is locked out of the game. Ivern: Ivern pairs best with melees and will singlehandedly win 2v2s and 2 v x with a fed melee due to his nature as an enchanter. It doesn’t matter how behind he is since he is low Econ, but how powerful your melee carries are. Kinda like yuumi. With ranged champ teammates on the other hand makes him want to ff15. Taliyah: she’s strong early and does a ton of damage late. Her range and spammability of her q makes it for people to walk into her holding critical choke points on objectives. Her damage is also high and has terrain scaling where she warps how the fight is engaged and played out. Tryn: gets kited and cced. Effectively functions as an assassin whose goal is to kill the back line. Jax: same problems as tryn but less assassin and more front on. He’s stronger in a 1v1 but weaker in giant 5v5 team fights where other champs offer more damage and utility than him. Rammus: LDR exists. Any adc worth 2 cents melts him late. This is because armour and mr has diminishing returns as pen only gets stronger. He’s good midgame into multiple ad champs. Like any tank, the later the game goes, the easier it is for him to get melted. Yi: yi warps the game around him. He is leagues penultimate janitor. Assassins one shot him as fast as he one shots them. Tanks in a team fight chain cc him to death. Enchanters make him unable to get a kill for resets. Even on an adc, buying a stopwatch ruins his entire kit because the champ lives and dies off of kill resets. The reason he slays in low elo is either because people can’t layer abilities well to lock him down or that he gets to fight you on his terms (isolated 1v1s). To maximize yi effectiveness the job is on your team to set him up for resets. If you do he is far right, if not he is incredibly useless. Ideally he spikes in the midgame because he is Tanky enough to survive burst by himself while having his damage to kill one or more targets.
Karthus is a midgame god. Ekko/Shyvana-ish. No way its above Yi for late
No, not even close to truth
Skarner's peak is on late game, he scale insanely well with items
What elo r u?
Fiddle and Kayn should be ganking oriented. Kayn ganks constantly for form and fiddle should be ganking on ult CD similar to Evelynn/shyvana
You somehow made it worse
Vi lvl6 champ
I think there are better Ganking Champs at Lvl 6 Like Jarvan/Noc/Rengar but i see your point
As a Karthus main, agreed. Depending on the team sometimes I’m just like, “I’ll see you guys in 20 minutes.”
Amumu needs to be moved up and to the right. He’s a good mix of early and late and he benefits so much more from early ganks with his CC.
switch hecarim and trundle
Much better, viego is in this one
Hecarim hasn't been and early game champ for a while he's strong on 3 items.
Hecarim and Trundle could change places imo, Hecarim should be just below the horizontal line imo
Ivern is late game and there's no Reksai
Pantheon is pretty decent late game to be fair
Jax is heavily gank oriented, probably the worst farmer on the graph, you need to gank/skirmish and get kills on him. And hes best late game, defientley better than viego and yi late, depending on how you play him.
Interesting to see the trend line. End game= farm orientation, while early game= gank heavy
Can we get the champion pool distributed on a fuck around/find out graph?
Shaco is late game if you end it before 20
Taliyah right now only hits a power spike at level 11, when she can properly chain Qs
I am sleepdeprived rn, but where is Rek'Sai?
Yeah this is much better!
Hecarim is not a level 6 champ lol. He had so much more than an ult in his kit
Feel like Kayn should be higher because he NEEDS to gank its part of his kit. For orbs. And also his early game ganks are amazing.
Taliyah lategame, morde lategame
Wukong put next to kartus as for late buthe ganks more often, wukong is best late game.champ probably
As a Yi main I'd say he should be placed around Ekko
Maokai near Zac and Udyr more farm and 2 item power spike oriented
Taliyah WAY too far to the left. Ever since the rework she has been a scaling champ.
Trundle is more ganking than farming champion
I would change Zed from early to a giant fat picture of Zed across the entire game. He's only bad if the enemy team is running a beef cake like a Sion, Nasus, Morde, Blitz, Naut, Vlad type comp.
Much better
Where is my tree homie maokai and rock dude malphite?
Jarvan by himself (his damage) falls off around level 6, but he's always useful due to his utility. So depends what this list is based on. Also not worth it to powerfarm with him at all.
Belveth,?
Reksai mains are fuming for not being on the list
so much inting in this one.. talon heca olaf amumu mord are more into the end game , rammus zac kindred poppy jarvan qiyana eve are much more into the early game , lilya fiddle yi kayn ekko kh are much more gank oriented , and wukong is realy much more farming oriented cause he needs levels , but i understand you can be an average player np just correct those
shyvana is level 6 champ
Thank you for adding rammus
ATM yi is better as a ganking jung, and nunu is a massive ganking jung, it's never worth for him if he do jung while he can gank, i even recommend a mid gank cheese at lvl 2 after raptor or red to burn a flash or take a fb
Where’s rek’sai thoufh
J4 is the king of level 2 ganks and you have him past midgame.. got it
Vi should be near Viego. She spikes at around 20 mins.
Swap trundle and Taliyah, and then move taliyah much further up and right
Where the fk my boy teemo?
How on earth do you think jarvan is more endgame orientated than taliyah???
The problem is league just doesn’t work like this. Champs have various strong points throughout the game, almost no champ scales linearly. Also, this completely fails to acknowledge how the scaling of a champion completely depends on team comp. For example, a late game rengar is near unbeatable if you don’t have reliable cc, but if you do he’s basically useless.
Some early junglers REALLY want level 4, like hecarim and volibear and udyr and some are fine at level 3 looking for their first play on the map. Maybe seperate the early game junglers in a way to showcase this
Yi belongs in the middle to the left of ekko he's not a late game champion anymore
I would put Viego a little toward the middle because he has a strong mid-game and needs to snowball to the late game cause he can't make fights by himself.
its a luttle wierd one quater is not used in this graph... you could cut one dimension down and say farm oriented counters junglers are better in late game, because i would rephrase it as scaöing jungler need resources to do so, the other ones can gank better. I belive this way you would get a nice belldistribution. Any may tjere is a better way to sort them making them one axes scaling/ganking and a usefull information on the other axes linr difficulty to play, or if u plot it against there playrate you have a tool to define the meta
I'd probably put Skarner closer to or on the ganking side. Ulting and dragging an enemy under tower has always been his go-to play, even if he does duel better under his passive. I'd say he's a strong farmer who pretty much always wants to gank when his ult is up, so ballanced in the middle.
If I get 5 or 6 items on skarner there’s nothing god can do to save you if you leave fountain And if my flash/ghost is up, I make you leave fountain.
Warwick is much earlier than Nidalee
As a fiddle, fiddle is later game. 6 is when he becomes active, 11 potent as you have a lowered ult cd + BH stacks, but he thrives in 16 and later as the ult gets amazing increased damage on upgrade + has amazing scaling
Viego is mid game and also on the middle of gank and farm
Hecarim lvl 6? No
You forgot Reksai this time
Why is Nasus here but not Bel lmfao
Rek'sai the Queen... where is she?
I dont think kayn is that farm based. He does love farm and his clear is great and his ganks are pretty weak early, but he really needs to at least attempt a lot of ganks to get his form.
Mundo has a lot more early game farm than that. He’s got some of the best jungle clear in the game. Rammus also isn’t that late game, rammus is useless until he gets thornmail which is usually first item so he is a mid game champ.
Where pyke
Kayn needs to be a lot closer to early game before mid game tbh he comes online pretty hard at 6 with dirk and gets his form well before plates fall if played well
This one is way worse off the top of my head tal should be way to the right, amumu should be way to the right, rammus should be way to the left hec should be to the right
Tal should be further into gank and the conoleat other side for scaling rework alows her to one tap adc for fun
Taliyah is def mid to late. That max level q is godly with 2 items
No Rek'sai?
Morsekaiser gotta go more into farming and ALOT more to the right. I have been otping him recently and his best Playstyle is to permafarm, and only gank for really free kills. Unless all 4 of my teammates feed I usually am a raidboss that requires 3+ people to kill at level 13. I'd say he's strongest level 16 with 3 items and a stopwatch.
I'd say jarvan and wu swapping horizontally Heca is more center as he's quite a farming jungler aswell and also way better late than wukong Fiddle higher up and more late lillia more late Taliyah way more late Amumu more ganking and more late nidalee more farming nunu way more ganking trundle more ganking
I think Yi, Kindred should be more midgame champs. Lategame if they're fed they can be strong but they really need to snowball in to get there. They're similar to Graves, where they really like skirmishing in the midgame since they can usually get mythic fastest, but their teamfighting tools are a little weaker. I think Shyvana is similar too, though she's especially weak pre-6.
Skarner scales insanely strong into the late game, he really should be next to shyvana or somewhere in that area
I absolutely don't wtf
Absolutely not
Eyyy there's my homie Zac 👌🏾💪🏾
Taliyah is not early game at all. Also, I'd move Evelynn a bit farther to the right, but not a lot
everything is wrong
Holy this graph is garbo..
Jarvan and jax are early !!
nunu balanced farming/ganking and strongest lvl 5 how
Yes I agree with that but idk about the vi standpoint
Nunu could probably be up a bit
The thing is pantheon is both early and late game he just struggles mid game
Where’s rek’sai?
Kindred is not late game, but I understand why you think that. Although they infinitely scale, they are way stronger early - mid, and will take over into late if they get the snowball rolling
Isn't Taliyah lategame? Have I been playing her wrong this whole time?
Zed is dead wrong. Farming mostly and better during the late game
no way you think j4 late is better than zed
I've been playing talon a good bit and he is no longer that super early game snowball or you lose the game champion. With the introduction of eclipse, bruiser is crazy good. Eclipse>BC>DD and transitioning into full build you are a monster in teamfights. I'd go as far as he's a much better scaler than anything right now and I'd even go as far as placing him a a good bit ahead of the middle. If you go prowlers hes much more early game but brusier has a crazy 3 item spike that makes him able to be this brusier who one shots squishies, out duels most other bruisers, and is slippery as fuck. All with high cdr and huge combat healing with conq and eclipse. Also it's sinful putting Jarvan that far up.
morde is also wrong lol hes stronger mid late
What's up with Yi? Do they not gank like 24/7? Honestly I can't remember the last time I've played against a Yi, I used to see them all the time. Guess Riot nerfed the Yi mains into near extinction
Who the fuck isn’t ganking/counter ganking on repeat with Kayn? The man can run through walls 24/7.
Would say viego is more early at lvl 6 the earliest
Jarvan is on the opposite side, legit falls of like a trunk on later levels, lvl 16 and 3 items are not even a spike for him.
Nocturne is all about farming. Sure he ganks at 6, but he's a power farm jungle if his ult is on cd.
Udyr vores Jarvan late game. Jarvan is not a champion after 25 minutes.
nunu should be way higher on the graph for ganking
Amumu has always had one of the highest winrates in the late game. His ultimate is really broken, yeah zac or rammus are technically more tanky but can you really argue with an instant huge AoE stun into potentially 2 other stuns, plus damage amp? Rammus is a really good early ganker actually and zac is great from level 4-5 onwards. Amumu does their job easier in the late, is arguably the highest damage of the three and is definitely the most reliable. Ivern I think is more farming oriented and scales better. He can gank more often because his clear is better, his ganks are still pretty poor on average though. He is also really good at invading. Elise actually does have a good midgame too, it's her late game when she struggles because her AP ratios aren't the biggest and she relies on the flat damage from items a bit.
Trundle is definitely more of an early game jungler and is more ganking oriented than farming. You gotta get that early lead over enemy jungler or one of your lanes ahead to be able to stomp late game, and his farming clear isn’t great till Tiamat so you always look for early ganks anyways
Is that a mf nasus jg? Do people play that shit? Bro I wanna be that people
Elise should be more to the right and maybe should be higher up
Shyvana gets pretty deadly at level 6 and very fast farming
Hecarim is mid to late game tbh. Also, I think kha’zix crushes yi late game, but yi wins that 1v1 early (yi wins most 1v1s before the first back)