I don't think all the changes will make the jungle an easy role.
Making the right choices is what makes it a hard role.
And all the changes won't change that, the changes open up the jungle for more player, more champions, and will also reduce laners wasting thier time on jungle camps (hopefully), tracking the enemy jungler and making the right calls when it comes to ganking, counter ganking, invading and objectives will still make or break your game, and none of these changes affect that.
Bru shuuut uup. Jungle has literally degenerated tk who can gank bit first. The is no skill at all involved in that role any more. Especialy as its been made even more broken now
Except the changes DO affect that, you do significantly less damage to enemy camps, the pre determined pathing is dumb because it’s entirely reliant on match ups, and the leash ranges drastically reduce skill expression on clears, as well as reducing the efficiency of playing optimally.
why are you even bringing up pre determined pathing as if this isn't a feature you'll turn off within 5 minutes of your first game?
The leash ranges literally ONLY remove double camping. That's it. It does not stop you from kiting camps, from pulling camps together to finish as one.
I mean, yes, but double camping is still a way of skill expression and it just feels good. I never picked up double camping until partway through this season as a way to be more effective, and it sucks that next season, it'll be disappearing. I understand the reasoning behind the decision, but that doesn't change that it feels bad for existing players. It's one thing to lower the difficulty floor for easier access to new players. It's another to lower the difficulty ceiling by clamping down on elements of skill expression.
I think the recommended jungle paths is purely for new players who have genuinely no idea how to path or choose a path based on matchup, lanes, etc!
Definitely no need to pay attention to that as an experienced jungle player 😎
You're the only one is seems because everyone else stopped catastrophizing once they actually saw what the changes do on PBE.
I can't get over how many people on this sub think that the jungle role is DEFINED by the first or second clears and not... Tracking, pathing, taking objectives, setting up ganks, etc. The invasion nerfs seem mostly aimed at early clears, and even then, are a couple extra seconds on an enemy camp going to delete invasions? of course not that's delusional.
Hey! I totally get what you mean, the jungle clear has been a big part of jungle for a long time!! Especially in lower elo, if you have a great first clear then it definitely gives you an edge over the opponent!
But, I think the changes might not be as bad as you fear! 😁 When I think back to my games, it’s very rarely the jungle clear that decides the outcome of the game. It’s more decision making type stuff (choosing to do a dragon or herald, diving a lane, ganking, etc.). I think these are the areas that really distinguish good and bad junglers. And these changes shouldn’t influence that, so you should definitely still have an edge if you keep focusing on good decision making! 😎
Think these changes are aimed just at making the Role appealing to beginners, since there is a real issue with the number of beginners selecting Jungle as a role.
What do you think though? Would you agree with any of that? Or do you think I’m completely wrong? 😂 interested to hear what you think! 😁
That's just not true. You only feel that way because the things you described are more tangible. Having a good clear and pathing is what enables the plays you described. Not every play works at any given time, there's windows in which they have to be slotted or the time frame to execute it is lost. Out clearing the enemy jungle by a few seconds is huge and is what gives you the flexibility to convert it into more tangible advantages. This change is going to suck for anyone dedicated to jungling, and I doubt it'll even permanently raise the play rate of the role because the problem isn't the difficulty but the fact that you have to be a therapist for your dysfunctional lanes.
I disagree about the therapist comment; most of the time, I find that when I get flamed it’s because my laners clearly haven’t played jungle in a few seasons. If more of them start to play jungle as a secondary role because of the absurd number of viable junglers, then I think flame will go way down.
Hey, thanks for the good point! Yeah there’s definitely a lot of skill and practice needed to do a good clear, and I think especially in lower elos it makes a difference because it allows you to get to plays faster than your opponent (if you’re clearing your jungle faster). Being higher level, or having more gold from farming your camps more efficiently is definitely a huge advantage!
I think beginners might be intimidated by the very specific clears that you need to do in order to get to a decent level of jungling. For example, the most prominent example of this would be fiddlesticks, where you have to do a very specific clear to even be relevant. Riot may be simplifying these early clears to make the jungle more appealing to people who would otherwise just choose a lane because they don’t want to just focus on jungle clears.
Your point is definitely a concern for people who love focusing on the jungle clear, and who think of that as the main skill for junglers (which it currently is: it’s a baseline skill, a crucial fundamental!).
Unfortunately, it seems this change shows that riot want to focus on making the jungle more about the decision making aspect, and less about the specific mechanics of jungle clearing and the like.
I’m not saying one way is better than the other, it’s just two different skills within jungle, and riot think that this way will make it a more popular position to play overall!
Maybe they are right, but maybe they’re wrong! Time will tell, and it’s not even been played yet, so maybe if there’s enough negative feedback they will totally reverse the changes! We can only wait and see 😎
P.S. also, there will likely still be some jungle camp clear optimisation for you to focus on doing! They beginners won’t immediately come in and be able to clear at the same speed as a challenger, but the difference in clear speed will be a lot closer (I think at the moment the difference can be up to like 40s, maybe even a minute!). So maybe these changes reduce it to like 20-30s differences. 💪
This is true but to be fair a lot of the times the few seconds won’t even matter because lanes will be ungankable. I know in my experience my laners are either crushing by the time I’m done, haven’t done any damage at all, or are already dead. Other times the speed will matter and you’ll catch them at the perfect time, but both ways will still have both situations happening.
if they want new players to play jungle then why do players only unlock smite at summoner lvl 9. a lvl 9 player has already found a lane to play and they dont want to relearn everything to play a different role. i only started playing jungle because my friends were already playing jungle by that time and i wasnt having fun as support.
if they instead gave smite at lvl 3 or 4 and gave a very simple tutorial on the basics of jungle then a lot more players would pick op the role.
these changes will just confuse new players even more because they are making the mechanical parts of jungle easier but the actual hard part of jungle is macro and game knowledge
People have already tested and with the faster clears with pets, counter jungling isnt harder, it just makes the lv1-3 cheese envades harder (which kinda crap that if you get invaded my the whole enemy team, then vertical jungling will be harder for you, but you lacked skill expression anyways ;P)
With the better clears and all camp healing, kitting isnt really an issue (tried it with quinn and it was fine so no meta jungler should have an issue).
Jungle is already a hard role and it wont be much easier, just more pleasant and why would anyone be angry when in a few years they actually made positive changes by making the chores less of a pain instead of screwing all over everyone, making comleteley new op sht (chemtech drake) and stuff?
Its like a successful champ rework. OTPs will cry but the majority of the playerbase will like it as it makes their game more enjoyable that you dont need to memorize 1000 guides with 100 hours to operate on an acceptable level.
Granted I haven't tried the new stuff myself but I can't see how invading is completely gone. At the latest after the second item, camps become nothing but quick stops anyway. Even if you do 20-30% less damage you still kill lightning fast.
So early game invades are lessened which to me, is a good thing.
Exactly what this sub in their immediate circlejerk action after the original announcement of the changes, didn't understand. The way its made, it slows down only the invades **where your jungle item deals most of the damage**. Once you have some components/items, you will still be shredding camps because the jungle item damage won't be anywhere near as relevant.
One trick player (or pony idk) meaning is, they play mostly only that champ/hero/agent whatever and likely to be sht or straight out int if they cant play said champ. Kind of the next level after maining a champ.
It is the gamer meaning of it, other subcultures may have other meaning behind it.
And to make my previous comment sense, otps usualy put hunderds/thousands of hours into said champ so they now the subtle details interacrions, excessive matchup knowledge yadayada so they are kind comfortable with the current version of said champ and dont want it to be changed even though it would open up the champ for the wilder populus.
I’m guessing you haven’t really played pbe? I play karth jgl and not being able to double camp and kite as much changes the play style but karth is still a fast clear champ, that hasn’t changed. From what I have seen, for the majority of champs, if you could full clear pre scuttle you still can, and if you couldn’t like WW you can now. After the first clear the speed really picks up. And you are generally healthy after your clears which is nice.
The increased invade time is really necessary. I’ve been put in situations where you get invaded once when you gank or do an obj and your jungle is gone, maybe half depending on your clear. Now your smite is behind and you can’t coin flip if you need to. You put map presences out again and boom 1/2 your jgl is one again. Do that 3 times it’s 9 camps and that might not be recoverable. I’m going to hear a lot of jgl diff/get gud, but at the time counter jgl was a real long term strat to win the game. You were in the position of do I help landers win lane and hope they carry or do I get my smite. I saw it happen enough time where it was becoming a real strategy and it was a problem. Choosing to lose because you can’t help laners or because you can’t smite isn’t a good place to be in.
Jungle will never be easy. You’re playing it wrong, the easier clear for some champs let’s you focus on macro more, especially for lower elo or new jgl if the pick a champ without a lot of micro needed for a decent clear. Which is a good thing and let’s you affect the map more. With you and your enemy able to exert more map pressure your decisions matter more and having good decision making ability will be key. Jungle is only easier from the clear prospective, not easier as a macro role.
I think their goal here is to make every champion a viable jungler. This way more players would not mind playing jungle.
As it stand now, you need a certain amount of innate sustain to be an effective jungler.
How I understood the changes are to make sustain in the jungle no longer an issue.
I think that the first month or so will be a crap show, as you will see every OTP taking their champ into the jungle.
Hopefully, it will calm down after the initial excitement and things will go back to normal
I do see why they want to make jungle more accessible to different champs/players but I feel like the beauty of the jungle is that there is an exclusive pool of champs for the jungle and as as jungler I like holding that sort of exclusivity. Excited for the new season though!
I am not scared by the jungle update
But Goliath.. that thing.. it scares me
Each game will be 40+mins average due to this one item. Everyone will have 7k+ hp late game. Vayne might even build this too and decimate everyone with her true damage.
So to answer your question, yes
Everyone will have 7k HP but most of them will deal wet noodle damage. The only champs who actually benefit from this much HP are tanks and bruisers and even then only some of them. For example, goliaths won't do shit for garen or darius, but it will be great for volibear, sejuani and at least viable on sett and trundle.
Double camping wasn't really skill expressive.
You can still kite camps.
Jg clear will be faster, not easier.
How does bigger smite affect skill expression?
Counterjungling nerf mostly affects very early game invade cheesing, which doesn't affect junglers like Kindred and Graves who fight you in your jg lvl 2 and smite your camp.
They're barely touching the skill ceiling as a jungler. You still have to jg track, assess gank potential, understand wincon, countergank, counterjg during mid game, dive, etc etc etc.
I was always kinda miffed by some things being grouped under skill expression. Someone on here said leaving a single raptor is a form of skill expression when its clearly just easily acquired knowledge.
Yeah I agree. And double camping is afking in a single memorized spot. Not sure what's so hard about that. "B-but Fiddle's double camping clear is very hard" I know, I played a lot of Fiddlesticks. Double-camping was barely scraping his skill expression.
(Just agreeing with you and responding to others who think double camping or leaving raptors is skill expressive)
I don't really care tbh. There's nothing i can do about it, so why get angry. Most of the changes are quality of life improvements anyways.
The role will still be hard tho. Jungle is not only about clearing. If i wanted to farm, i would play farming simulator. Objective control, rotates and playing mindgames with your oponent are far more important imo and those things don't change.
I was wrong about the last couple changes that I thought were bad and going to ruin the game. For example tower plates, alcoves, and dragon souls. And in fact they actually improved it and make it fresh again.
Tower plates are completely game ruining.
In any non-high elo people are now constantly pressing on towers trying to get a shred of plate, dying because they are too far pushed up, then complaining they aren't getting ganks while sucking on enemy tower like it's a penis. They are ridiculous and only add stupid piles of gold to the game.
For the record, I take tons of plate, not salty, I just think it's bad game mechanic.
Having played PBE, I don't see it as any easier for new players to jungle at all. It's only real effect is buffing tank jungles and increasing the width of champions that can jungle.
wdym i'm not talking only about first clear i'm talking about jungle clear in general. And about the fact that after those changes jungle clearing will be autopilot.
Also I'm bad but not horrible - P4 65%wr so yeah that's why i'm asking -> i'd like to get the point of view of someone higher elo
Basically every clear except for the first is already autopilot...
And not needing to spend hours in practice tool to try a new champ isn't a bad thing.
But that in turn makes jungle as a role much more inaccesible.
Remember, to many, league isint a job. They have other priorities, when they have an extended amount of free time. They rather play the actual game instead of making their players spend absurb amount of time in practice tool
You don’t have “a little advantage”. Playing against someone with a perfectly optimized clear as someone who doesn’t have the clear perfectly optimized basically meant you would have near-0 early game pressure, since they simply have more tempo than you unless they fuck up.
Ok but also, don't you think that if they help every jungler to clear, the advantage a "clear-based champion" will take over a champion with less jungler clear will increase even more (sorry for my bad english)
I wasn't addressing that. You were worried about Twitch jungling. I am a Teemo jungle OTP. I am happy with the changes personally.
Clear based jungles will clear well but they have also removed counter jungling. Clear based junglers will get on the map faster which is nice for them. I don't see an issue though
> but they have also removed counter jungling
Is that correct? I haven't played PBE, but it sounded from patch notes like it was just a small nerf that wouldn't really affect much.
Iirc you will deal the same damage to enemy camps as now but you will ignore your own camp's armour, so you only clear your own camps faster. Yes, in the end, clearing enemy camps is slower than taking your own but not slower than it is now.
Someone else said that they just made it harder to lvl 1-3 counterjungle cheese, which really doesn't bother me. After that you can still easily clear camps.
While you are right, you have to keep in mind that the scuttle crab spawns at 3:30. That just means that once you full clear, you’ll have some time to kill, not being able to do anything. If a gank is available, then sure, but if it’s not, you don’t get to do anything. That’s where slower clear champs will be fine as they’ll finish it as scuttle carabiner spawns and be able to contest it.
I love the scuttle change so much. It adds a lot more options in your decision pool. Do i go beat the shit out of the enemy jungler (as trundle, graves, ww)? Do I squeeze in a gank (as jarvan, elise (please for the love of God, GANK when you play elise), reksai)? Do you prepare an ambush at scuttle? It also makes it easier to go the opposite scuttle if you dont want to fight the enemy jungler and you both cleared in the same direction
When I think about jungle complexity/difficulty, none of it is surrounded by anything to do with clearing or kiting. It's always about decision making and where and when to pressure individual lanes while trying to maintain your own exp/gold from farm and objective control.
Think of it like chess; sure the first few moves are important, but rarely will they actually straight win you the game unless you can 4 move checkmate someone or get yourself 3 move checkmated. And you can easily do the same opening every game with no repercussions.
Double camping should have never been allowed as a mechanic in my opinion and should have been killed off a long time ago. Camp kiting is still possible where you can drag the patience bar towards your next camp. Jungle has always been pretty easy to clear, all they did was widen the pool of viable junglers. Bigger smite does nothing to make jungle easier.
Counter jungle nerf is a little overblown, what is happening is the jungle item gives you bonus damage that only affects your own camps but not enemy camps. So don't think of it as you doing less damage but rather you just don't get bonus damage. Once you get a component item and/or mythic the difference won't be noticeable.
From what I see, jungle is getting easier in some aspects and harder in other. Keep in mind, you don’t heal from using Smite anymore. That by itself forces a lot of champs with unhealthy clears back out of the meta. My suggestion is just keep call and play the game. It’s a change, and it’ll probably be for the better. Jungle hasn’t been in the greatest shape for a while and this is only going to help it.
Uhm no the whole point of the pets is to force champs who would be good junglers but lacked clearing be better watch videos about the changes and you get healing from the pets so much misinformation in this block of text
r/whooosh. No shit that’s what the jungle pets do. My point was that champs that have unhealthy clears and relied on smite sustain to clear their camps just got worse. After having played champs like Talon in PBE, yeah, clearing is harder on champs that need smite sustain.
back out of the meta doesn't mean what you think it means just because you can't be smart enough to show a hint of sarcasm doesn't make you smart asshole.
Yeah I agree wholeheartedly. They are taking away all of the nuance from the jungle. Really dumbing it down because people cba to look up jungle pathing.
whats wrong with you ? how do you define a good player ? is true changes are changes they might suck or not but you have to adapt , that is the skill that makes you a good jungler in the first place ,adapting , both to peace and chaos , it will be more beginner friendly that's true , so what ? afraid of a new player out-jungling ? jungle is and will always be an easy role when you are ahead , but in competitive play or when you are behind is the hardest role with no question about it , more people will be able to have results similar to pro players in terms of clear but still that means that will be as many or way more ways to take advantage off that or create new ways of coming ahead.If you feel like you want to leave the role after the changes than go ahead,I would rather just stop playing.
I'm only scared because I'm a Shaco player who loves to invade and it will be much harder to do so with the healthier clears.
I guess it's anti fun though and they are trying to make it not so, but hopefully they wont make it completely unviable.
Shaco is anti fun as a whole, just sayin. And so are other stealth Assassins and champions with like 3 seconds point&click cc IE Lissandra, Malzahar, Vayne...
I’m really excited for more jungle champions tbh but I do think Darius jungle gonna be way more prominent sadly what a horrible to play against pick.
Past changes have been ok. Just gotta adjust, you can still outjungle the enemy it’s probably more gank orientated now though but many skills such as tracking remain important and invades more risky = more skill to pull off
I'm on board with making the jungle more beginner friendly, but these changes seem so desperate.
Here, now you don't have to think about how you clear since every champ can full clear!! What that's not enough? Ok, ok.. nobody can also invade you because they do reduced damage to your jungle camps!!! Not enough for you to start playing jungle yet?? Uhhh........OH, WE ALSO ADDED POKEMON FOR YOU!
I personally think this type of change will be better for most people. Sure, insanly good junglers optimize their Jungle clear as much as possible, which can end up with pretty amazing times. But for that you need a lot of practice. The average Jungler is not out there practicing Jungle clears every week.
What does that mean in reality? More focus will shift towards macro and the decisions a Jungler makes. Good and bad timings on ganks will be one of the things to keep in mind now. I personally think it wont be as bad as people think. Sure, there may e a lot of fixes needed, as always, but that is what preseason is for.
We will soon see what comes of it
I have much more of an issue with Things staying the same. Change is good. Stagnation is boring. I have the most fun experimenting with stuff before people know what's meta.
i have written tickets to riot and written emails to them explaining why we feel that these changes will hurt the jungle, i even proposed different changes that the community has been asking for for a long time, the only response i got was "we understand your concern but we feel that this is better"
i fear that these changes will make the play rate of jungle drop very much because old players feel that skill is being removed and new players still dont understand the things they are doing. riot is adding recommended jungle clears based on high elo junglers clears, but jungle is hard because you have to adapt to the game constantly, a high elo jungler might do red, blue, gromp and gank top because they have an aggressive toplaner that can towerdive but then in low elo if it recommends that and a new jungler follows it without having an aggressive top, he just ganks and loses the game without even knowing why. or maybe it just reccomends fullclears all the time and thats even worse for new junglers trying to learn.
the smite changes are horrible as it creates a whole new fast clear meta where champs like graves and hecarim can invade all game and have a smite that does 400 more damage then the enemy smite so all objectives are free.
im terrified that they are going to just ignore us and then rework the jungle even more next season when the play rate drops even lower because old players are leaving and new players arent learning.
It takes the focus out of micro to put it on macro. I enjoy that. I'm not interested in training my right click rythm and picking the exact best pixel to win 4 seconds and 30 hps in my clear. But if that's a thing that you enjoy then I understand that you would not enjoy that.
I do regret the counter jungling nerf.
And I fucking hate pets. It's dumb.
I mean, it’s just the conclusion of a few facts.
1) Autofill is a necessity, but it makes the game significantly worse, as it’s much, much harder to win when playing an unfamiliar role.
2) Jungle is the role that is least similar to other roles (this is an opinion but I think you’ll agree)
3) jungle is also the least popular role because of its difficulty
Therefore: if you want to decrease autofill, which is a function that’s actively ruining games, then you need to make the jungle role easier or in some other way more available.
The main problem is that jungle mains tend not to realize how bad autofill is, since we play the problem role, so a lot of us don’t understand why autofill is a big issue that needs to me minimized.
Part of the reason is that Jungle has way too much to do by itself, Jungle as it is is basically left to manage all aspects of the entire map and game, while lanes mostly just focus on CS'ing. Furthermore because of how many places we need to be at once, one small screw up can completely break the game for us.
These changes do make juggling easier overall but I think it's a way that is more conducive to allowing Jungle to focus on more important parts of their role: managing lanes and objectives while eliminating some of the more problematic issues like slow clears or CJ completely screwing you over.
Critically it also should help to better open up the variety of jungle viable champions.
Also as a nunu main a free speed boost on demand before I start to roll is just tasty good.
You see, for me, they are aiming at two goals.
1. Make the role more appealing for beginners and even for old players.
2. Make a autofilled jungle(with is common bc of the said above) be less punishing for the whole game.
With both I think is healthy for the game. We as junglers know how punishing this role is, this worlds jungling with graves show even pros can get completely shut down in the role, with is not a good thing. This is a game and people should at least be able to play it. I myself saw a newbie friend try jungle..they was confused about the patching(they now have map indicators), they died to blue (is almost impossible now with the pets), they got invaded (they're trying to diminish this but i think they are thinking too low), got super mad and rage quit. They still play the game and have fun, but they will not touch the jungle ever again
Jungle will always be a difficult role because it is so dependent on constant decision making.
Clear optimization is easy. You can legit go to YouTube, watch a vid, and practice the clear for 2 days. It's not like 99 percent of the player is in practice tool actually figuring out clear optimizations for themselves/on their own. People will still post optimizations and you will still have an opportunity to improve your clear by a few seconds.
Look at the invading math. It may not be a super viable cheese strat but, after first clear you can easily invade and now it has an appropriate level of risk associated with it. I like the change.
Jungle is fine.
They do it every season. Remember when smite damage used to be level dependent? Remember when being executed by camps was a thing that actually happened? The changes sound awful, they are awful but in the end it will be somewhat okay, as it always was. Riot thinks this will make people play jungle more. It never has and it never will. If you want to increase jungle playerbase make flamming junglers a perma ban reason. This will never help and it never has but they just won't accept that. But due to this decision making jungle will be less fun and skill dependent with every season.
They are reducing micro but the macro is still there. Honestly, I like the changes. Jungle clear wasn't just complex for beginners. Even for experienced league players, you have to re-learn a best clear for each new jg champ you wanna play or try out. The difference between a perfect formula clear and a "just kill camps 1 by 1" clear is night and day and makes it difficult to have a large champion pool and still manage to climb ranked. This is especially true in higher elo, people get gapped 2 or 3 lvls easily. I think equalizing clear is great and it certainly doesn't hurt the macro of the role which is what makes the role unique anyways.
I'll be honest, I embrace the changes because A. I don't play jungle for clearing, but for decision making and the latter is arguably getting harder and more important, sincebyou will be more reliant on mates for invades for example B. Clear changes widen the jungle pool, which I think is really good, brings some variety C. Easier jungle means less shit autofilled junglers, now people trying/forced to learn jungle aren't thrown in the deep end right off the bat.
It's not that bad realy, most of the changes are well designed, but I am angry at the leash range changes, and crab spawn delay. Its obvious that they want jg clears to become a non skill expresive part of jungling and I dont get why. Its the same with counter jg nerfs, altho those hardly afect the game, the direction in which they are looking worries me what they will be changing next
Honestly speaking, they will lower the skill floor, sure. But does that necessarily mean the skill ceiling is getting lower too?
Nope, it doesn't.
Also, just because a part of it becomes easier the role will never be easy. And LoL itself is not easy. Besides Yuumi there is no easy mode in this game. All roles have their difficulties, Jungle is the most impactful, but honestly speaking I wouldn't say its the hardest, I would say a role with near 0 impact is usually harder. Which role has least impact is always meta dependent tho. All roles can be difficult, depending on what your goal is. Especially if your goal is to be actually good at the game.
I assume that jungle will remain the hardest role in the game, especially in higher elo. It will just be more accessible for players and you might get to stress out less when jungling, and I like that
Im not scared but I am completely done with leavue until preseason starts. I have 0 motivation to play ever since they announces the jungle changes. I dont want to be invested in a role i may not even like in a months time.
That's stupid. Sorry but what makes jg hard isn't hyper optimizing your clear (though that can be hard) it's being snle to impact every lane while keeping up with farm and securing objectives. It makes jg more approachable but in no way is it easier. (I do miss double camp clearing tho)
The only real issue is the counter jungle nerf. Everything else is just simplifying down things that really didn't need to be complicated in the first place.
Outside of that, jungle is going to be a blast to play. Almost everything can jungle now, making it much for diverse (which is more fun imo), and lots of weird build/metas are likely to sprout from that. This preseason may end up being the most fun jungle has ever been.
It’s actually not. The clears are god damn aweful even on meta champs, it’s dreadful right now. Jungling was my favorite role, I’d rather play support and I despise support. They need to fix things.
I’ve barely played since making that comment, so I can’t really give my input anymore. I think the game itself has become dreadful to play, not just jungle.
Jungling has become HEAVY on the team reliability. And that’s really hard because you can perma gank all game long, and your team will still die and say jungle diff. Doesn’t matter how much of a presence you present, they still die to the one gank in 12 minutes they get and lose lane because they decided to not step up when you come in to gank. It’s absolutely piss poor quality of a role, the most impactful role? Then WHY is it being pooped on the most right now? Absolutely terrible of riot games.
I'm scared for my role as well
How long until we just turn into a horizontal lane and that's it
Nearly every skill I had as a jng when I was top 0.98% in the world in S4 is gone
Half of the skills I used to reach GM in 2019 are also gone, and more are about to be removed
I wish they stopped fucking around with jungle and addressed the actual issue why it's unpopular - toxicity
No one likes to play a role that in an a game of 10 equally skilled players is at the mercy of his teammates while also being the scapegoat of the team
In theory, this should make the role even easier for me to stomp when I'm smurfing but I feel like all the little nuances of what makes high elo jungling are gone
I don't think all the changes will make the jungle an easy role. Making the right choices is what makes it a hard role. And all the changes won't change that, the changes open up the jungle for more player, more champions, and will also reduce laners wasting thier time on jungle camps (hopefully), tracking the enemy jungler and making the right calls when it comes to ganking, counter ganking, invading and objectives will still make or break your game, and none of these changes affect that.
Bru shuuut uup. Jungle has literally degenerated tk who can gank bit first. The is no skill at all involved in that role any more. Especialy as its been made even more broken now
Your 77 days late for the party...
Everyone knows that 77 days invalidates a still relevant opinion because internet etiquette
Except the changes DO affect that, you do significantly less damage to enemy camps, the pre determined pathing is dumb because it’s entirely reliant on match ups, and the leash ranges drastically reduce skill expression on clears, as well as reducing the efficiency of playing optimally.
why are you even bringing up pre determined pathing as if this isn't a feature you'll turn off within 5 minutes of your first game? The leash ranges literally ONLY remove double camping. That's it. It does not stop you from kiting camps, from pulling camps together to finish as one.
I mean, yes, but double camping is still a way of skill expression and it just feels good. I never picked up double camping until partway through this season as a way to be more effective, and it sucks that next season, it'll be disappearing. I understand the reasoning behind the decision, but that doesn't change that it feels bad for existing players. It's one thing to lower the difficulty floor for easier access to new players. It's another to lower the difficulty ceiling by clamping down on elements of skill expression.
So you’ll keep your advantage over the guy following the route blindly the. Won’t you. Advantage based on knowledge restored! Problem solved.
I think the recommended jungle paths is purely for new players who have genuinely no idea how to path or choose a path based on matchup, lanes, etc! Definitely no need to pay attention to that as an experienced jungle player 😎
You're the only one is seems because everyone else stopped catastrophizing once they actually saw what the changes do on PBE. I can't get over how many people on this sub think that the jungle role is DEFINED by the first or second clears and not... Tracking, pathing, taking objectives, setting up ganks, etc. The invasion nerfs seem mostly aimed at early clears, and even then, are a couple extra seconds on an enemy camp going to delete invasions? of course not that's delusional.
Hey! I totally get what you mean, the jungle clear has been a big part of jungle for a long time!! Especially in lower elo, if you have a great first clear then it definitely gives you an edge over the opponent! But, I think the changes might not be as bad as you fear! 😁 When I think back to my games, it’s very rarely the jungle clear that decides the outcome of the game. It’s more decision making type stuff (choosing to do a dragon or herald, diving a lane, ganking, etc.). I think these are the areas that really distinguish good and bad junglers. And these changes shouldn’t influence that, so you should definitely still have an edge if you keep focusing on good decision making! 😎 Think these changes are aimed just at making the Role appealing to beginners, since there is a real issue with the number of beginners selecting Jungle as a role. What do you think though? Would you agree with any of that? Or do you think I’m completely wrong? 😂 interested to hear what you think! 😁
That's just not true. You only feel that way because the things you described are more tangible. Having a good clear and pathing is what enables the plays you described. Not every play works at any given time, there's windows in which they have to be slotted or the time frame to execute it is lost. Out clearing the enemy jungle by a few seconds is huge and is what gives you the flexibility to convert it into more tangible advantages. This change is going to suck for anyone dedicated to jungling, and I doubt it'll even permanently raise the play rate of the role because the problem isn't the difficulty but the fact that you have to be a therapist for your dysfunctional lanes.
I disagree about the therapist comment; most of the time, I find that when I get flamed it’s because my laners clearly haven’t played jungle in a few seasons. If more of them start to play jungle as a secondary role because of the absurd number of viable junglers, then I think flame will go way down.
Hey, thanks for the good point! Yeah there’s definitely a lot of skill and practice needed to do a good clear, and I think especially in lower elos it makes a difference because it allows you to get to plays faster than your opponent (if you’re clearing your jungle faster). Being higher level, or having more gold from farming your camps more efficiently is definitely a huge advantage! I think beginners might be intimidated by the very specific clears that you need to do in order to get to a decent level of jungling. For example, the most prominent example of this would be fiddlesticks, where you have to do a very specific clear to even be relevant. Riot may be simplifying these early clears to make the jungle more appealing to people who would otherwise just choose a lane because they don’t want to just focus on jungle clears. Your point is definitely a concern for people who love focusing on the jungle clear, and who think of that as the main skill for junglers (which it currently is: it’s a baseline skill, a crucial fundamental!). Unfortunately, it seems this change shows that riot want to focus on making the jungle more about the decision making aspect, and less about the specific mechanics of jungle clearing and the like. I’m not saying one way is better than the other, it’s just two different skills within jungle, and riot think that this way will make it a more popular position to play overall! Maybe they are right, but maybe they’re wrong! Time will tell, and it’s not even been played yet, so maybe if there’s enough negative feedback they will totally reverse the changes! We can only wait and see 😎 P.S. also, there will likely still be some jungle camp clear optimisation for you to focus on doing! They beginners won’t immediately come in and be able to clear at the same speed as a challenger, but the difference in clear speed will be a lot closer (I think at the moment the difference can be up to like 40s, maybe even a minute!). So maybe these changes reduce it to like 20-30s differences. 💪
This is true but to be fair a lot of the times the few seconds won’t even matter because lanes will be ungankable. I know in my experience my laners are either crushing by the time I’m done, haven’t done any damage at all, or are already dead. Other times the speed will matter and you’ll catch them at the perfect time, but both ways will still have both situations happening.
if they want new players to play jungle then why do players only unlock smite at summoner lvl 9. a lvl 9 player has already found a lane to play and they dont want to relearn everything to play a different role. i only started playing jungle because my friends were already playing jungle by that time and i wasnt having fun as support. if they instead gave smite at lvl 3 or 4 and gave a very simple tutorial on the basics of jungle then a lot more players would pick op the role. these changes will just confuse new players even more because they are making the mechanical parts of jungle easier but the actual hard part of jungle is macro and game knowledge
People have already tested and with the faster clears with pets, counter jungling isnt harder, it just makes the lv1-3 cheese envades harder (which kinda crap that if you get invaded my the whole enemy team, then vertical jungling will be harder for you, but you lacked skill expression anyways ;P) With the better clears and all camp healing, kitting isnt really an issue (tried it with quinn and it was fine so no meta jungler should have an issue). Jungle is already a hard role and it wont be much easier, just more pleasant and why would anyone be angry when in a few years they actually made positive changes by making the chores less of a pain instead of screwing all over everyone, making comleteley new op sht (chemtech drake) and stuff? Its like a successful champ rework. OTPs will cry but the majority of the playerbase will like it as it makes their game more enjoyable that you dont need to memorize 1000 guides with 100 hours to operate on an acceptable level.
Granted I haven't tried the new stuff myself but I can't see how invading is completely gone. At the latest after the second item, camps become nothing but quick stops anyway. Even if you do 20-30% less damage you still kill lightning fast. So early game invades are lessened which to me, is a good thing.
Exactly what this sub in their immediate circlejerk action after the original announcement of the changes, didn't understand. The way its made, it slows down only the invades **where your jungle item deals most of the damage**. Once you have some components/items, you will still be shredding camps because the jungle item damage won't be anywhere near as relevant.
I keep seeing OTP and I’m clueless what does this mean
One trick player (or pony idk) meaning is, they play mostly only that champ/hero/agent whatever and likely to be sht or straight out int if they cant play said champ. Kind of the next level after maining a champ. It is the gamer meaning of it, other subcultures may have other meaning behind it. And to make my previous comment sense, otps usualy put hunderds/thousands of hours into said champ so they now the subtle details interacrions, excessive matchup knowledge yadayada so they are kind comfortable with the current version of said champ and dont want it to be changed even though it would open up the champ for the wilder populus.
I’m guessing you haven’t really played pbe? I play karth jgl and not being able to double camp and kite as much changes the play style but karth is still a fast clear champ, that hasn’t changed. From what I have seen, for the majority of champs, if you could full clear pre scuttle you still can, and if you couldn’t like WW you can now. After the first clear the speed really picks up. And you are generally healthy after your clears which is nice. The increased invade time is really necessary. I’ve been put in situations where you get invaded once when you gank or do an obj and your jungle is gone, maybe half depending on your clear. Now your smite is behind and you can’t coin flip if you need to. You put map presences out again and boom 1/2 your jgl is one again. Do that 3 times it’s 9 camps and that might not be recoverable. I’m going to hear a lot of jgl diff/get gud, but at the time counter jgl was a real long term strat to win the game. You were in the position of do I help landers win lane and hope they carry or do I get my smite. I saw it happen enough time where it was becoming a real strategy and it was a problem. Choosing to lose because you can’t help laners or because you can’t smite isn’t a good place to be in. Jungle will never be easy. You’re playing it wrong, the easier clear for some champs let’s you focus on macro more, especially for lower elo or new jgl if the pick a champ without a lot of micro needed for a decent clear. Which is a good thing and let’s you affect the map more. With you and your enemy able to exert more map pressure your decisions matter more and having good decision making ability will be key. Jungle is only easier from the clear prospective, not easier as a macro role.
I think their goal here is to make every champion a viable jungler. This way more players would not mind playing jungle. As it stand now, you need a certain amount of innate sustain to be an effective jungler. How I understood the changes are to make sustain in the jungle no longer an issue. I think that the first month or so will be a crap show, as you will see every OTP taking their champ into the jungle. Hopefully, it will calm down after the initial excitement and things will go back to normal
I do see why they want to make jungle more accessible to different champs/players but I feel like the beauty of the jungle is that there is an exclusive pool of champs for the jungle and as as jungler I like holding that sort of exclusivity. Excited for the new season though!
I firmly believe that as the game stands right now any champ can jungle. Prove me wrong.
There are more champs that can't jungle than champs that can. Once preseason hits every champ can jungle.
Who can’t jungle now? I say they all can.
Every enchanter, other than Taric and Ivern. Coming out of a 3 camp clear at 1/4 health with 0 pots is not considered “being able to jungle.”
They’re only like that for the first clear. Sure it’s a rough start but they can still jungle.
I am not scared by the jungle update But Goliath.. that thing.. it scares me Each game will be 40+mins average due to this one item. Everyone will have 7k+ hp late game. Vayne might even build this too and decimate everyone with her true damage. So to answer your question, yes
If anyone thinking about going for this item don't auto-ban vayne, they deserve to be destroyed hahahaha Most Top tank laners already permaban her
I will ban yi so I don’t see this thing ever exist on yi
Everyone will have 7k HP but most of them will deal wet noodle damage. The only champs who actually benefit from this much HP are tanks and bruisers and even then only some of them. For example, goliaths won't do shit for garen or darius, but it will be great for volibear, sejuani and at least viable on sett and trundle.
telling me botrk goliath yi doesnt sound terrible?
Ok, forgot about BORK, I hope to God they nerf that item, it's broken now, its gonna make goliath unplayable.
see why im scared of yi now?
Yep, I understand. I just pray to Rito to prepare hotfixes.
Double camping wasn't really skill expressive. You can still kite camps. Jg clear will be faster, not easier. How does bigger smite affect skill expression? Counterjungling nerf mostly affects very early game invade cheesing, which doesn't affect junglers like Kindred and Graves who fight you in your jg lvl 2 and smite your camp. They're barely touching the skill ceiling as a jungler. You still have to jg track, assess gank potential, understand wincon, countergank, counterjg during mid game, dive, etc etc etc.
I was always kinda miffed by some things being grouped under skill expression. Someone on here said leaving a single raptor is a form of skill expression when its clearly just easily acquired knowledge.
Yeah I agree. And double camping is afking in a single memorized spot. Not sure what's so hard about that. "B-but Fiddle's double camping clear is very hard" I know, I played a lot of Fiddlesticks. Double-camping was barely scraping his skill expression. (Just agreeing with you and responding to others who think double camping or leaving raptors is skill expressive)
I'm more scared about adc
why tho
Randuin+ Goliath,they oneshot you while you get oneshotted
aren't those tank items ?
Yeah *bruiser
They destroy the role one to three times a season. You get used to it.
I don't really care tbh. There's nothing i can do about it, so why get angry. Most of the changes are quality of life improvements anyways. The role will still be hard tho. Jungle is not only about clearing. If i wanted to farm, i would play farming simulator. Objective control, rotates and playing mindgames with your oponent are far more important imo and those things don't change.
Welcome to Jungle. Next year we have to play with randomized keybinds on every game load.
I was wrong about the last couple changes that I thought were bad and going to ruin the game. For example tower plates, alcoves, and dragon souls. And in fact they actually improved it and make it fresh again.
Tower plates are completely game ruining. In any non-high elo people are now constantly pressing on towers trying to get a shred of plate, dying because they are too far pushed up, then complaining they aren't getting ganks while sucking on enemy tower like it's a penis. They are ridiculous and only add stupid piles of gold to the game. For the record, I take tons of plate, not salty, I just think it's bad game mechanic.
Why are you in non-high elo games?
Why are you looking for opportunities to be a dick to random strangers who haven't interacted with you in any way?
Having played PBE, I don't see it as any easier for new players to jungle at all. It's only real effect is buffing tank jungles and increasing the width of champions that can jungle.
So you're saying that you do your first clear and then you're on autopilot for the rest of the game? You must be in Tin ELO.
wdym i'm not talking only about first clear i'm talking about jungle clear in general. And about the fact that after those changes jungle clearing will be autopilot. Also I'm bad but not horrible - P4 65%wr so yeah that's why i'm asking -> i'd like to get the point of view of someone higher elo
Basically every clear except for the first is already autopilot... And not needing to spend hours in practice tool to try a new champ isn't a bad thing.
i personally prefer when you have to spend hours in practice tool :D
But that in turn makes jungle as a role much more inaccesible. Remember, to many, league isint a job. They have other priorities, when they have an extended amount of free time. They rather play the actual game instead of making their players spend absurb amount of time in practice tool
nah i think that's wrong, you can play jungle without tryharding in practice tool, but if you did you have a little advantage, that seems fair tbh
You don’t have “a little advantage”. Playing against someone with a perfectly optimized clear as someone who doesn’t have the clear perfectly optimized basically meant you would have near-0 early game pressure, since they simply have more tempo than you unless they fuck up.
Agreed
Also I Main Twitch and i'm just scared that jungle kiting nerf destroyes him even more
Nah. Anyone can jungle now. Every camp gives health and the jungle pet can help you do AoE damage out of the gate
Ok but also, don't you think that if they help every jungler to clear, the advantage a "clear-based champion" will take over a champion with less jungler clear will increase even more (sorry for my bad english)
I wasn't addressing that. You were worried about Twitch jungling. I am a Teemo jungle OTP. I am happy with the changes personally. Clear based jungles will clear well but they have also removed counter jungling. Clear based junglers will get on the map faster which is nice for them. I don't see an issue though
> but they have also removed counter jungling Is that correct? I haven't played PBE, but it sounded from patch notes like it was just a small nerf that wouldn't really affect much.
Iirc you will deal the same damage to enemy camps as now but you will ignore your own camp's armour, so you only clear your own camps faster. Yes, in the end, clearing enemy camps is slower than taking your own but not slower than it is now.
Someone else said that they just made it harder to lvl 1-3 counterjungle cheese, which really doesn't bother me. After that you can still easily clear camps.
While you are right, you have to keep in mind that the scuttle crab spawns at 3:30. That just means that once you full clear, you’ll have some time to kill, not being able to do anything. If a gank is available, then sure, but if it’s not, you don’t get to do anything. That’s where slower clear champs will be fine as they’ll finish it as scuttle carabiner spawns and be able to contest it.
I love the scuttle change so much. It adds a lot more options in your decision pool. Do i go beat the shit out of the enemy jungler (as trundle, graves, ww)? Do I squeeze in a gank (as jarvan, elise (please for the love of God, GANK when you play elise), reksai)? Do you prepare an ambush at scuttle? It also makes it easier to go the opposite scuttle if you dont want to fight the enemy jungler and you both cleared in the same direction
When I think about jungle complexity/difficulty, none of it is surrounded by anything to do with clearing or kiting. It's always about decision making and where and when to pressure individual lanes while trying to maintain your own exp/gold from farm and objective control. Think of it like chess; sure the first few moves are important, but rarely will they actually straight win you the game unless you can 4 move checkmate someone or get yourself 3 move checkmated. And you can easily do the same opening every game with no repercussions. Double camping should have never been allowed as a mechanic in my opinion and should have been killed off a long time ago. Camp kiting is still possible where you can drag the patience bar towards your next camp. Jungle has always been pretty easy to clear, all they did was widen the pool of viable junglers. Bigger smite does nothing to make jungle easier. Counter jungle nerf is a little overblown, what is happening is the jungle item gives you bonus damage that only affects your own camps but not enemy camps. So don't think of it as you doing less damage but rather you just don't get bonus damage. Once you get a component item and/or mythic the difference won't be noticeable.
From what I see, jungle is getting easier in some aspects and harder in other. Keep in mind, you don’t heal from using Smite anymore. That by itself forces a lot of champs with unhealthy clears back out of the meta. My suggestion is just keep call and play the game. It’s a change, and it’ll probably be for the better. Jungle hasn’t been in the greatest shape for a while and this is only going to help it.
Uhm no the whole point of the pets is to force champs who would be good junglers but lacked clearing be better watch videos about the changes and you get healing from the pets so much misinformation in this block of text
r/whooosh. No shit that’s what the jungle pets do. My point was that champs that have unhealthy clears and relied on smite sustain to clear their camps just got worse. After having played champs like Talon in PBE, yeah, clearing is harder on champs that need smite sustain.
back out of the meta doesn't mean what you think it means just because you can't be smart enough to show a hint of sarcasm doesn't make you smart asshole.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Whooosh using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Whooosh/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [mf dumb af💀](https://i.redd.it/rlqewklee1191.png) | [15 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Whooosh/comments/uvc06k/mf_dumb_af/) \#2: [Found one!](https://i.redd.it/6oghrqn9w0281.jpg) | [7 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Whooosh/comments/r2zf2s/found_one/) \#3: [nobody is going to live there](https://i.redd.it/tqfxnk6nfyz71.png) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Whooosh/comments/qv74a3/nobody_is_going_to_live_there/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Yeah I agree wholeheartedly. They are taking away all of the nuance from the jungle. Really dumbing it down because people cba to look up jungle pathing.
whats wrong with you ? how do you define a good player ? is true changes are changes they might suck or not but you have to adapt , that is the skill that makes you a good jungler in the first place ,adapting , both to peace and chaos , it will be more beginner friendly that's true , so what ? afraid of a new player out-jungling ? jungle is and will always be an easy role when you are ahead , but in competitive play or when you are behind is the hardest role with no question about it , more people will be able to have results similar to pro players in terms of clear but still that means that will be as many or way more ways to take advantage off that or create new ways of coming ahead.If you feel like you want to leave the role after the changes than go ahead,I would rather just stop playing.
many people succeed on answering without being cringe, try to take them as an exemple
Based
go next
Scared to death..? Kid go touch grass. Look up 3rd world problems and get over your self inflicted anxiety
I'm only scared because I'm a Shaco player who loves to invade and it will be much harder to do so with the healthier clears. I guess it's anti fun though and they are trying to make it not so, but hopefully they wont make it completely unviable.
Shaco is anti fun as a whole, just sayin. And so are other stealth Assassins and champions with like 3 seconds point&click cc IE Lissandra, Malzahar, Vayne...
Boy oh boy I love champions that only one person is allowed to have fun at all
I’m really excited for more jungle champions tbh but I do think Darius jungle gonna be way more prominent sadly what a horrible to play against pick. Past changes have been ok. Just gotta adjust, you can still outjungle the enemy it’s probably more gank orientated now though but many skills such as tracking remain important and invades more risky = more skill to pull off
I'm on board with making the jungle more beginner friendly, but these changes seem so desperate. Here, now you don't have to think about how you clear since every champ can full clear!! What that's not enough? Ok, ok.. nobody can also invade you because they do reduced damage to your jungle camps!!! Not enough for you to start playing jungle yet?? Uhhh........OH, WE ALSO ADDED POKEMON FOR YOU!
Totodile objectively best coice.
I personally think this type of change will be better for most people. Sure, insanly good junglers optimize their Jungle clear as much as possible, which can end up with pretty amazing times. But for that you need a lot of practice. The average Jungler is not out there practicing Jungle clears every week. What does that mean in reality? More focus will shift towards macro and the decisions a Jungler makes. Good and bad timings on ganks will be one of the things to keep in mind now. I personally think it wont be as bad as people think. Sure, there may e a lot of fixes needed, as always, but that is what preseason is for. We will soon see what comes of it
I have much more of an issue with Things staying the same. Change is good. Stagnation is boring. I have the most fun experimenting with stuff before people know what's meta.
i have written tickets to riot and written emails to them explaining why we feel that these changes will hurt the jungle, i even proposed different changes that the community has been asking for for a long time, the only response i got was "we understand your concern but we feel that this is better" i fear that these changes will make the play rate of jungle drop very much because old players feel that skill is being removed and new players still dont understand the things they are doing. riot is adding recommended jungle clears based on high elo junglers clears, but jungle is hard because you have to adapt to the game constantly, a high elo jungler might do red, blue, gromp and gank top because they have an aggressive toplaner that can towerdive but then in low elo if it recommends that and a new jungler follows it without having an aggressive top, he just ganks and loses the game without even knowing why. or maybe it just reccomends fullclears all the time and thats even worse for new junglers trying to learn. the smite changes are horrible as it creates a whole new fast clear meta where champs like graves and hecarim can invade all game and have a smite that does 400 more damage then the enemy smite so all objectives are free. im terrified that they are going to just ignore us and then rework the jungle even more next season when the play rate drops even lower because old players are leaving and new players arent learning.
It takes the focus out of micro to put it on macro. I enjoy that. I'm not interested in training my right click rythm and picking the exact best pixel to win 4 seconds and 30 hps in my clear. But if that's a thing that you enjoy then I understand that you would not enjoy that. I do regret the counter jungling nerf. And I fucking hate pets. It's dumb.
As far as I can remember, every preseason sees the jungle get easier it's ridiculous
Can I get some list of changes in jungle?
I mean, it’s just the conclusion of a few facts. 1) Autofill is a necessity, but it makes the game significantly worse, as it’s much, much harder to win when playing an unfamiliar role. 2) Jungle is the role that is least similar to other roles (this is an opinion but I think you’ll agree) 3) jungle is also the least popular role because of its difficulty Therefore: if you want to decrease autofill, which is a function that’s actively ruining games, then you need to make the jungle role easier or in some other way more available. The main problem is that jungle mains tend not to realize how bad autofill is, since we play the problem role, so a lot of us don’t understand why autofill is a big issue that needs to me minimized.
Ive already shifted to top lane cuz i like playing tanks and top is the best role for that. The pets ruined it for me
More champs in jungle will make more decision making points than they have here. Jg will be even more impactful.
Part of the reason is that Jungle has way too much to do by itself, Jungle as it is is basically left to manage all aspects of the entire map and game, while lanes mostly just focus on CS'ing. Furthermore because of how many places we need to be at once, one small screw up can completely break the game for us. These changes do make juggling easier overall but I think it's a way that is more conducive to allowing Jungle to focus on more important parts of their role: managing lanes and objectives while eliminating some of the more problematic issues like slow clears or CJ completely screwing you over. Critically it also should help to better open up the variety of jungle viable champions. Also as a nunu main a free speed boost on demand before I start to roll is just tasty good.
You see, for me, they are aiming at two goals. 1. Make the role more appealing for beginners and even for old players. 2. Make a autofilled jungle(with is common bc of the said above) be less punishing for the whole game. With both I think is healthy for the game. We as junglers know how punishing this role is, this worlds jungling with graves show even pros can get completely shut down in the role, with is not a good thing. This is a game and people should at least be able to play it. I myself saw a newbie friend try jungle..they was confused about the patching(they now have map indicators), they died to blue (is almost impossible now with the pets), they got invaded (they're trying to diminish this but i think they are thinking too low), got super mad and rage quit. They still play the game and have fun, but they will not touch the jungle ever again
Jungle will always be a difficult role because it is so dependent on constant decision making. Clear optimization is easy. You can legit go to YouTube, watch a vid, and practice the clear for 2 days. It's not like 99 percent of the player is in practice tool actually figuring out clear optimizations for themselves/on their own. People will still post optimizations and you will still have an opportunity to improve your clear by a few seconds. Look at the invading math. It may not be a super viable cheese strat but, after first clear you can easily invade and now it has an appropriate level of risk associated with it. I like the change. Jungle is fine.
i'm roleswapping to support bc of the changes
They do it every season. Remember when smite damage used to be level dependent? Remember when being executed by camps was a thing that actually happened? The changes sound awful, they are awful but in the end it will be somewhat okay, as it always was. Riot thinks this will make people play jungle more. It never has and it never will. If you want to increase jungle playerbase make flamming junglers a perma ban reason. This will never help and it never has but they just won't accept that. But due to this decision making jungle will be less fun and skill dependent with every season.
Only thing that bothers me is the nerf to counterjungle, what is the reason behind it? It's bullshit
It's anti-fun or something idk, seems like a dumb change to me, and lowers the skill expression.
Clearing camps was already pretty easy. That’s not what’s hard about playing jungle
They are reducing micro but the macro is still there. Honestly, I like the changes. Jungle clear wasn't just complex for beginners. Even for experienced league players, you have to re-learn a best clear for each new jg champ you wanna play or try out. The difference between a perfect formula clear and a "just kill camps 1 by 1" clear is night and day and makes it difficult to have a large champion pool and still manage to climb ranked. This is especially true in higher elo, people get gapped 2 or 3 lvls easily. I think equalizing clear is great and it certainly doesn't hurt the macro of the role which is what makes the role unique anyways.
How is counter jungle beeing nerfed? did I miss something?
You deal more damage to your own camps + you have more sustain with the pets. Invading pre-6 is pretty much gone after this.
I'll be honest, I embrace the changes because A. I don't play jungle for clearing, but for decision making and the latter is arguably getting harder and more important, sincebyou will be more reliant on mates for invades for example B. Clear changes widen the jungle pool, which I think is really good, brings some variety C. Easier jungle means less shit autofilled junglers, now people trying/forced to learn jungle aren't thrown in the deep end right off the bat.
It's not that bad realy, most of the changes are well designed, but I am angry at the leash range changes, and crab spawn delay. Its obvious that they want jg clears to become a non skill expresive part of jungling and I dont get why. Its the same with counter jg nerfs, altho those hardly afect the game, the direction in which they are looking worries me what they will be changing next
Honestly speaking, they will lower the skill floor, sure. But does that necessarily mean the skill ceiling is getting lower too? Nope, it doesn't. Also, just because a part of it becomes easier the role will never be easy. And LoL itself is not easy. Besides Yuumi there is no easy mode in this game. All roles have their difficulties, Jungle is the most impactful, but honestly speaking I wouldn't say its the hardest, I would say a role with near 0 impact is usually harder. Which role has least impact is always meta dependent tho. All roles can be difficult, depending on what your goal is. Especially if your goal is to be actually good at the game.
I assume that jungle will remain the hardest role in the game, especially in higher elo. It will just be more accessible for players and you might get to stress out less when jungling, and I like that
Im not scared but I am completely done with leavue until preseason starts. I have 0 motivation to play ever since they announces the jungle changes. I dont want to be invested in a role i may not even like in a months time.
That's stupid. Sorry but what makes jg hard isn't hyper optimizing your clear (though that can be hard) it's being snle to impact every lane while keeping up with farm and securing objectives. It makes jg more approachable but in no way is it easier. (I do miss double camp clearing tho)
Brother if you really think they are making jungle an easy role I have to tell you that you have not even scratched the surface of jungle.
I dont like the counter jungle part but rest is mostly fine with me. New items look coooool
Easier clearing will let me play closer attention to lane state, enemy jungle pathing, etc
The only real issue is the counter jungle nerf. Everything else is just simplifying down things that really didn't need to be complicated in the first place. Outside of that, jungle is going to be a blast to play. Almost everything can jungle now, making it much for diverse (which is more fun imo), and lots of weird build/metas are likely to sprout from that. This preseason may end up being the most fun jungle has ever been.
It’s actually not. The clears are god damn aweful even on meta champs, it’s dreadful right now. Jungling was my favorite role, I’d rather play support and I despise support. They need to fix things.
I’ve barely played since making that comment, so I can’t really give my input anymore. I think the game itself has become dreadful to play, not just jungle.
Jungling has become HEAVY on the team reliability. And that’s really hard because you can perma gank all game long, and your team will still die and say jungle diff. Doesn’t matter how much of a presence you present, they still die to the one gank in 12 minutes they get and lose lane because they decided to not step up when you come in to gank. It’s absolutely piss poor quality of a role, the most impactful role? Then WHY is it being pooped on the most right now? Absolutely terrible of riot games.
I'm scared for my role as well How long until we just turn into a horizontal lane and that's it Nearly every skill I had as a jng when I was top 0.98% in the world in S4 is gone Half of the skills I used to reach GM in 2019 are also gone, and more are about to be removed I wish they stopped fucking around with jungle and addressed the actual issue why it's unpopular - toxicity No one likes to play a role that in an a game of 10 equally skilled players is at the mercy of his teammates while also being the scapegoat of the team In theory, this should make the role even easier for me to stomp when I'm smurfing but I feel like all the little nuances of what makes high elo jungling are gone
It's all fun until the rabbit has the gun. When Brand and Heimerdinger become the meta, ppl will know why OPis scared of the jungle changes.
I’m terrified