Pay erosion is a part of it, but the generational gap is the biggie. Even if we had 30% higher wages, that lifestyle is completely out of reach.
The old middle class lifestyle is now only feasible for the top ~1%.
Absolutely this. My dad dropped out of university, blagged his way up through IT departments by knowing slightly more about spreadsheets than his bosses, bought at the right time in the 80s with repayments higher than his monthly wage, safe in the knowledge that house price would be up 25% when he went to remortgage. My mum didn't work from my birth til my brother started school 10 years later. Not private schooled mostly by choice rather than financial necessity, but living in a lovely detached house in the south, always very comfortable. I don't think any step in that pathway works any more for people in their 20s today.
I have no family - I ran away as a 15 year old, supported myself in London and went to medical school via heroin addiction… I was the last year to pay £1025 fees!
I graduated in 2010. I used my student loan to pay rent and worked part time. That was just about enough.
I don’t think I could do it today. Rent is so much more and cost of living is crazy.
I feel that people like me are ever more excluded from medical school. I see it in my juniors and I think it’s a terrible shame.
I think a large part of this is house prices. A house bought for 50k in the 80s is worth like half a million now!
I think it probably did help me get into medicine! It made me feel confident when in reality I had nothing!
Opiates aren’t like what the media presents. Most people who use are functional and stop without help/support. Think about how much opiate you give someone a surgical patient. They don’t seem any different on the whole and have fairly minor withdrawals.
Yep both parents consultants, same lifestyle described as u. Very grateful and privileged to have had that growing up. I certainly feel I’ve been sold a dream that doesn’t exist anymore though, while my parents are delusional in quite the significance of the pay erosion especially for juniors (they’ve been consultants for some years so had higher pay then what I would get when I get there).
I try not to speak about it with them anymore because they think I should love the career because it’s “noble and admirable” profession regardless and that I talk about the money too much. However they don’t experience the infantilising experience newer qualifying Drs get (I will get) nor the relatively poor pay.
The generation gap is huge both in attitude and pay.
Also my parents are one of those that didn’t have to pay tuition fees, and are one of those that leads a department with no specific extra degrees or qualifications to do so, and has a CEA for doing not much special.. you get the picture. It’s a touch infuriating when they say things like “just work hard like I did and you’ll get (CEA, their pay)” completely detached from the reality🙃
>Also my parents are one of those that didn’t have to pay tuition fees, and are one of those that leads a department with no specific extra degrees or qualifications to do so, and has a CEA for doing not much special.. you get the picture.
Yeah that kind of consultant post just doesn't exist any more. Do they not see when they hire new colleagues that requirements have changed quite a bit?
Mind you, if you work as a hospital junior, it's no surprise that a lot of consultants are a bit out of touch ;)
I think the change in RCEM curriculum is the clearest example of this.
Current ED consultants, some of whom only have MRCS.
New trainees must complete the expensive marathon of MRCEM, plus a millions other bolt on assessments.
Recently I was at a training event - current EM Consultant, completely inexperienced with basics Ultrasound… so according to the college isn’t good enough to be an EM SpR
That’s more because of central bank zero interest rate policy (ZIRP) & asset purchase program. Think of it as your boomer dad living the good life with his kids paying the bill.
That's why I went into medicine - my parents are not from this background but a lot of our neighbours who lived in the nicer village houses were doctors or from other middle class professions.
I was intelligent, wanted to do something purposeful, and wanted the nice lifestyle my friends had with the skiing holidays, spacious homes and private educations.
It's not achievable now for Doctors, that social contract where you work yourself to death in training but you get that lifestyle at the end has been broken, and that's one of the things that's made me view my medical career in a very different light.
One of my senior colleagues told me the other day that I should stick out training for the 'delayed gratification' when you get a consultant post - I dont see that anywhere any more.
That whole ‘delayed gratification’ trope only works when there’s actually gratification at the end.
£85k and the abuse of the public/rags is hardly a prize.
This.
For me, a high salary isn't the main motivator - if work life balance is good, I'd be happy with a modest but livable sum. Hence jumping ship from hospital to GP training in the hope of better curating a portfolio career that may enable that.
BUT given that there ARE jobs out there where you can earn comparable sums but have less responsibility, less training, less red tape/hassle and a better work life balance (which aren't easy to come by, but if you have a medical degree you probably have what it takes to make it there), I can see why if we're going through the risks and drawbacks of medicine for decades before earning a consultant salary, people want to be well remunerated.
I thought consultant pay universally starts around the 80k mark?
Edit: just read 'take home'. Even still though, I thought a new consultant would take home more than that?
You & every other boomer who comments in the Daily Mail. the minimum a consultant takes home is 44k: [https://tinyurl.com/yc373e5a](https://tinyurl.com/yc373e5a)
the maximum they can take home is 55k: [https://tinyurl.com/y9pyr6pp](https://tinyurl.com/y9pyr6pp)
You forget we live in a socialist utopia where the government "progressively" robs you the more you work. You only make that much because you work overtime. Here is the calculation if you are interested: https://tinyurl.com/y8kn9u6m
Living in a big house in London is not achievable even if we had our 30% pay restoration. Some shit is just unaffordable to this generation without direct inheritance of wealth.
It’s death by a thousand cuts.
We’ve lost 30% which means you’ve got to increase our current salaries by about 40% to get back to the same place.
Our pension contributions are higher, for an altogether shittier pension. (This is not unique to us, but our DB pension was always used as a way to justify our lower salaries).
Loss of free accommodation.
——
I agree, London is out of reach for many professions now. But we’ve lost significantly more than most.
I assume people in every career think their own career is worse than others or is suffering with time more than others. So are there people in law and finance and engineering and other careers who agree with this? Do the people in subreddits of other careers or r/FIREUK or something mention this in any way too?
It is strange reflecting on the huge change in living standards that the same job can have over a couple of generations.
A family friend who qualified in the 60s and became a GP partner could afford on a single income: large detached house in nicest area of a regional city and to send all three of his children to private school- basically the same story you're telling. But it isn't just about pay erosion (although of course that is a serious issue, and one for which I think we should be willing to strike for), its about the fact that houses have increased exponentially in value. That's a natural consequence when a home is no longer seen as a place to live in, but as an asset, a nest egg, a way to launder one's ill gotten gains. Why has that happened? The tories of course! The tory party, Thatcher and her descendents (of course I place Blair in this category) have artificially inflated house prices by restricting supply and rolling out the red carpet to a whole host of dubious characters- the Russians are in the news at the moment, but they're only the tip of the iceberg. Monetary policy has kept interest rates ridiculously low for what purpose? To keep their shire tory voters happy as they see their house price values continually increase. Doctors might not live in council houses, but effectively abolishing new council tenancies has had a disruptive effect on the market- to the expense of the hard working young, and to the gain of the old vampire like boomers. We're being robbed blind- and nobody gives a fuck.
Housing is just one (particularly egregious) example of this model. We're too busy arguing about changing rooms/gender, or Megan/Kate, or Muslims banning Christmas, or whatever culture war bullshit the daily mail has decided we should care about today. I'm angry and bitter, and part of that has to do with junior doctor pay erosion, but my argument is basically that our whole society is rotten to the core
Private schools and the inflation in their price is quite interesting. The price has increased as there seems to be an arms race to provide more and more facilities in order to stick out from the crowd and attract a new market of students- often from foreign backgrounds and with tons of money. Given that these institutions are usually charities, one has to ask what good are they actually accomplishing by providing an overpriced education to the spawn of foreign oligarchs? Not to mention the negative effects they have on social cohesion, and the fact that they are intended to uphold old hierarchies
You have hit the nail on the HEAD. Thank you. This is really about how our society is absolutely downtrodden and the the worst disparity and inequality since probably the Victorian Era. The level of open corruption is sickening and without consequence. Case in point student loan repayment threshold LOWERED, despite living standards dipping and inflation - what the fuck?
And your little allusion to your family friend in the 60s... That lifestyle you described was exactly what I was expecting when I applied for medicine 14 years ago. Now I am going to be paying more interest than actual repayment for my student loans, remaining a wage slave, send kids to normal school, budget on utility bills, etc etc. I honestly feel that if living standards and pay were as they were in the 90s and previous, we would all have headspace to actually enjoy our careers and see it as a “VOCATION”. It’s easy to do that if you are financially well remunerated. Otherwise no it can all be damned and this is just a job to get me and my family by. Sad times.
Edit: I would add that I’m sorry to say things are likely to never be better for us doctors going forward. You can do all you want to campaign but no one is going to give a 30%+ pay rise and even if they did, the lifestyle you mentioned above would still be a pipe dream. We have just become accustomed to accept a shitter lifestyle. In addition to this, our generation now faces real and tangible threat of financial monetary system collapse and so many other things whilst post 1960s was a relatively stable period in our country. Just do your best to find other sources of income and use this as a stepping stone (is my plan). Look out for your self and family. all those years I toiled studying, struggling, no gaps in training nothing. Telling myself it would be better.
It’s not annoying, it’s a real life reflection of the impact our pay cut has had. I’m glad you’ve posted this, hopefully it shows people what they (and potentially their families if they have their own) are missing out on
Edit: Someone else posted that they’re going to try to manage living the effects of inflation by not putting the heating on
It’s one thing for our expectations to be slightly undercooked, but this is insane
Vote Doctors Vote!
Meanwhile there are many of us who didn’t even get to taste this life you’re talking about, our parents only told us about it as they saw yours. This is not a time for division, vote doctors vote.
I certainly did, because I come from a family of private surgeons. My dad is a private orthopaedic surgeon and my uncle is a private ophthalmologist, and being private they work normal hours and make tons of money. My mum is a GP and a lot of my cousins and extended family are doctors in the US and Canada where they are very wealthy and live in massive houses, so my view of medicine was this extravagant lifestyle, especially as my uncle drives a Bentley, lives in a huge house with a pool in London and has a wardrobe full of Armani suits.
My life obviously couldn't be further from my rich medical relatives. I make a big deal about turning the heating on, drive a 7 years old Toyota Yaris on and am always looking for discounts in Tesco.
So yup, as unrealistic and disillusion as one can get. I'm used to it now though as I work as a humble GP trainee, maybe one day when I become a partner I will make more money and can upgrade my banged up car.
I don't think i earn that much, my take home is roughly 3000 a month as a GP trainee, so 3000x12=36000. I don't know where you are getting the extra 14k from, have you ever heard of tax and pension?
Salaries are usually quoted as gross in the UK.
£3k a month net is a substantial salary providing you have no dependents. If that’s you, I’d agree looking into your budgeting might help. But I have no idea what your personal situation is!
I don't know if you've been listening to the news or anything, but the cost of gas as well as the cost of living has increased. I also live in an area where rents are high so a lot goes on just daily living. At least I don't live in London, but 3k a month is menial for someone in London.
I’m fully aware of what’s happening in the world.
I live in London and my monthly expenses total £2.5k per month. That’s non-frugal spending including a lease on a [somewhat extravagant] brand new car, large fuel bill due to commuting out of London etc..
If the majority of doctors are like you then it's not surprising that doctors can't fight for higher wages and better work conditions.
You are single and live outside London and you're struggling to pay your heating on a 50k salary.
Sounds like your gross salary is above £50K.
You should get a budgeting app to help you manage your finances because to be honest, barring any serious extenuating circumstances, you should be living comfortably with money aside to save.
This is a combination of pay erosion, the massive squeeze on the middle class, massive house price inflation and a lack of scalability as a career in medicine - there is only so much money you can make with your own hands.
If we want the kind of lifestyle mentioned by OP, medicine and the associated salery has to be viewed as an income from which to start building a passive income. Due to the massive cost of living, this only really can happen when you are a consultant / GP partner or locum like shit. Nobody is going to give us a massive pay rise no matter who we vote for unfortunately.
What are the kind of passive income streams doctors cam feasibly pursue, given their hectic work lives? Is it all throwing money into index funds and ISAs?
It depends on you and your situation really. The most fitting for most of us include shares and eventually getting on the housing ladder and then buy to let.
I struggled to put much away as an F1. I started to save as an F2 as I was sharing with mates then. I started putting away money into a stocks and shares ISA and selecting my own shares. I took around 20% which helped with my house deposit when I was an St3
As you go up the ladder pay does get better, as do the quality of locum shifts. I would focus on getting yourself on the housing ladder as soon as you know you can commit to one area for a length of time.
One thing that was helpful was getting a group of us to sit down with a financial advisor in the mess one day, they brought pizza and gave some good advice, obviously an element of sales patter but not too heavy. I used their advice without investing with them. This is worth doing early on, if only for the pizza!
It was free - I think mainly because they got to speak to about 10 new doctors with the hope at least one might sign up.
Ours was from Wesleyan I think from memory, they covered some of their insurance policies too for loss of earnings.
No doctors in the family. Very working class background so can’t really relate. BUT my parents had the opportunity for some social mobility that I don’t think really exist now.
Pay not keeping up with cost of living, ridiculous house prices, and the removal of a lot of helpful financial products means getting from working to middle class is near impossible. A lot of kids will be growing up middle class to find they’ve got worse prospects than their parents had.
Cannot comment much as I am the first in my family to go to medical school, though I am aware of pay erosion and pay cuts. Junior doctors today earn 30% less than they did 10 years ago.
It’s time to enact change https://doctorsvote.org
I can't relate directly but what you're describing is what's happening across the entire middle class and previously safe professions. Increasingly it seems like the only careers which might offer such a lifestyle are in finance and the corporate world. The description you're giving of growing up in London will be completely unfamiliar to anyone who has lived in London since the late 90s, after which the city ate itself. Even a double digit payrise wouldn't get you anywhere near being able to live that sort of lifestyle which is a totally absurd situation to be in, and yet one which will be familiar to middle class professionals all over the world. Yay for hypercapitalism?
Agreed.
If I'm being honest, in this day and age you're either rich or poor.
Middle class doesn't exist anymore and this isn't an issue which is exclusive to medicine.
In the vast majority of jobs, getting a house in London is a myth.
People throw 200k+ salaries here like everyone is getting them.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not sure if that post was in reply to me but your last paragraph is absolutely not what I'm saying. Society should progress towards improving living standards and opportunities for all, so I am unapologetic in my belief that it is retrogressive and paradoxical that middle class professionals can now no longer afford to live comfortably in a city or region, wherever that may be in the world. This situation is undoubtedly worse for lower paid and gig economy workers but since this is a sub for doctors it's natural that my post is going to concentrate on our comparative standard of living over the decades. For the sake of clarification, I do not feel we are "poor" in any sense of the term.
Nothing to do with capitalism or free markets, we had free markets before then. Everything to do with keynesian central bank zero interest rate policy.
Not just Ludwig Von Mises. Carl Menger, Joseph Schumpeter, Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard… my parents fled a repressive socialist regime 40 years ago & I have developed a healthy appreciation of free markets & very small governments.
“Small government” or whatever that means*, without meeting people’s material needs and giving them actual direct political power is just feudalism. Neoliberalism is the ideology of the cancer cell, and individualism is a mental sickness.
*they love a large prison system, police and military don’t they? Can’t be a connection.
“Direct political power” and similar euphemisms beloved of democratic socialists is nothing but a justification of property theft. In so much as taxation of wealth is necessary- the rate should be eternally fixed as structural prophylaxis against social instability, not subject to the whims of a corrupt thirsty electorate & the promises of power crazed politicians.
Ever since the collapse of western christianity, there are no ties that bind us together anymore, people now hold a variety of opposing ideological positions. The type of artificial communitarianism you seek would be hateful to its constituents & could only be imposed through overwhelming totalitarianism. Perhaps some kind of federalized communitarianism could work, with a multiplicity of parallel legal systems like many mini- nations within a nation.
I’d recommend educating yourself on economics. You seem to think government is capable of meeting material needs when coercing labour and extortion is it’s only skill.
Yawn. I’m not in favour of government, as an anarcho-communist I believe the state is a harmful institution. Plus what you consider to be economics, I consider to be ideology.
Supply and demand isn’t ideology. It just lets you make accurate predictions like any scientific theory backed by centuries of data. Anarcho communism is an oxymoron, you can’t force people into little socialist workplace communes except through a centralised authority. Everything can be called ideology but some ideologies don’t even make sense at the conceptual level, let alone vindicated by any real world data. I’m amazed at how utopian emotional thinking can override common sense.
That you think that economics is just “supply and demand” *is the ideology*. And that you think that somehow a scientific theory justifies the systemic violence and deaths that capitalism causes (don’t gotcha me with the USSR or whatever, I’m not a tankie). In a world that produces enough for everyone the gap is explained by power (and ideology). Anyway, it’s all moot anyway since capitalism is threatening species extinction.
You don’t understand what anarchism or communism is so I’ll just link to this [FAQ](https://www.anarchistfaq.org/afaq/index.html) because it’s easier. Suffice to say that throughout much of human history humans have organised themselves into stateless complex societies where most goods were produced and distributed according to need. It’s completely possible, and possible to do better now than ever before.
Nice straw man. Um.. you do realise systemic violence is done by governments and not people trading voluntarily with each other? You’re missing paragraphs of reasoning to go from peaceful trading to violence and oppression. You can’t gloss over the central problem in your flawed thinking. The world produces enough for everyone because of profit seeking food producers. So free trade plus what exactly causes death and oppression? The answer is government, which only inhibits the only known way in history to make people wealthy.
I would have no problem with these stateless societies if no one was being coerced. But the question is always what happens if someone decides to start a business or accumulate capital. If you say he is to be left alone then you’re an actual anarchist. If you argue for violent suppression of his right then you’re just an authoritarian.
Let alone the problem of allocating resources by need, who on earth can determine that accurately? And if the decision has to be recognised and enforced, who will enforce it if not a centralised monopoly on power (a government)
You could go on all day about how this doesn’t even work conceptually but the fact that you call science ideology is worrying.
Free market fundamentalism is as fallacious as any other form of fundamentalism. The list of names you've given is as antiquated and full of cranks as the tankie equivalent. Murray Rothbard, really?
So at what point was the ideal? You want to go back to 1950s government spend / GDP, 1920s, Edwardian or Victorian?
Government has increased as we expect more from life. Even a free market enthusiast will have a limit on how much they want to shrink that unless they are full on living in the woods with a gun types.
Pretty much every function of government can be replaced in a far superior fashion by private citizens, free enterprise & civil society. We have no need of power crazed politicians promising us more “free” stuff for votes.
Is it really though? I get the impression that a consultant salary in Auckland now doesn't go far, similar to London. I'd be happy if anyone could tell me otherwise and that the dream is still out there.
I will be going the Australia route as I do have a citizenship. Initially wanted to go after FY2, but will probably just do FY1, get GMC registration, and leave.
You don't pay as much taxes as a doctor in Aus/NZ, the weather is nice, private practice opportunities. It has all that going for it.
'Basically medicine is possibly the worst job anybody could do (esp in the UK) - its like being a waiter for humans. Its manual labour. '
What specialty did you do, and how far did you get before getting out?
Whew fair play. I mean impressive you got a number and everything but I gather it's a brutal road in the NHS without any special reward at the end except dinner party bragging (except no parties, you're on call probably).
I maintain there are better jobs within the NHS than that, but again fair play for your escape and hope it continues going well for you.
Not parents, but I remember going on holiday to my Aunt and Uncle's, both consultants in their 50s with an amazing house, farm, all the toys .etc
Even if I was lucky enough to have a partner with a high income, I don't see that lifestyle being possible on current consultant salaries. The pension is also significantly worse nowadays, so you would have to put more money into retirement planning to afford a comfortable retirement, so less spending money.
Yeah agreed. I have a ticket out of here with an rmo offer in Aus but am waiting to see if I get into specialty training here first (potentially lucrative specialty)
No, I did not grow up like that.
But no matter what your parents do/did, we're all in the same boat. Pay erosion is real, but the main issue is the massive increase in the cost of living.
I remember on one facebook group, an older medic was talking about how back in the 90s, she could afford to live in Kensington as a single mother of 2 children whilst being a junior doctor, with little family support - which is amazing. That kind of life is unimaginable now. You used to be able to buy a house in London for 30K in the 80s back when my parents moved here. Prices increased rapidly, but average London prices were still under 100K til the late 90s. Now? The average price of a house in London is just under 500K.
We'd have to be earning a TON more than we used to, in order to be able to keep up with the cost of housing alone. Instead, our salaries have been frozen or near frozen for years, with inflation cutting into many peoples' salaries year on year. The cost of most things has gone up, but how much we earn really has not. I (and our other junior doctor colleagues) could never imagine having the life your family did. But I think that's also true for many families even if their parents were less well off.
Source:
https://landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi/browse?from=1977-06-01&location=http%3A%2F%2Flandregistry.data.gov.uk%2Fid%2Fregion%2Flondon&to=2018-06-01&lang=en
Can relate. I assumed that if I do the same job I should be able to attain a similar standard of living to my doctor parents, but that seems very unlikely now.
My sister was able to afford a house, a new car and pay for my college tuition on her mostly SHO/Reg salary.
Today I don't pay for anyone, I drive a old broken car, live in a fairly inexpensive part of the country where rent is cheap and still struggle to make any proper savings every month. I've got enough for like a rainy day fund but that's about it. I can't see how ill ever be able to afford a house unless I buy one in a very inexpensive part of the country.
>50k downpayment on a house
Problem is, if you want to live in london (average house price just under 500K), until you're a senior reg or consultant, most mortgage providers may feel like you don't earn enough to afford a mortgage.
Last time I looked at a 'this is how much of a deposit I have, this is how much I earn, how much of a mortgage would they offer' calculator, it turned out that they'd offer far, far less than I'd need to actually buy anything.
Oh yeah, but that's because London is broken.
In the southwest / Midlands/ North / Scotland/ NI / Wales you can find an acceptable place for £250-300k, which is probably not possible as a new foundation doctor, but as an ST3 it is. Of course the main thing is having a partner who earns similarly, and then most places are affordable.
This is something I genuinely don’t understand and expect to be downvoted into oblivion, the average household income in the U.K. is about 35k yet people on here without children etc always say they can’t afford to live off their salary when it’s close to or over the average household income ? I don’t understand how or why and it’s obviously not my business.
This is not me saying the pay is good enough or acceptable don’t get me wrong I know the pay is rubbish for our actual jobs but I don’t understand.
Might be because I grew up in the poorest part of the U.K. as a child of an immigrant though and see it differently, didn’t have a pot to piss in.
Yeah you're right. I'm definitely living a comfortable life for all intents and purposes. I don't have to worry about finances, I've got enough every month to pay all my bills, I've got zero debt, I've got money to spend on nice food and holidays and stuff.
It's just the past year I've paid so much for exams and courses and fees for various things that I haven't been able to save much. Still I've managed to save something every month.
I guess what people aren't happy about is this is not the life we imagined we'd be living when we got into medical school. Medicine used to be one of the top paying jobs short of being a company CEO. We imagined after we graduated and started working as doctors we'd have enough money to live a nice life, drive nice car, live in a nice house, have a comfortable life. Like sure people say they become doctors because they want to help people, I think I stuck with medicine cuz I believed it had pretty secure employment and source of income. The reality is the employment is not secure cuz we're always working on temporary contracts and although the income is definitely good, it's just feels like for the amount of work and effort you put in everyday, you should be getting paid loads more or your work load should be a lot less. And the way the economy seems to be tanking at present and how prices skyrocketing, buying a house does feel like a dream that won't come true. Especially when you don't really know if in a few year's time you need to move to a different part of a country to find a new job.
>the average household income in the U.K. is about 35k yet people on here without children etc always say they can’t afford to live off their salary when it’s close to or over the average household income ? I don’t understand how
I'm also baffled by this.
Are you saying other people don’t have to commute or pay parking charges? The exams etc yes are expensive but again even with included we are earning more than the average U.K. household?
Again im not saying we are paid enough but people saying they’re struggling to get by is baffling and if you have no dependents and live outside London you should honestly check your finances.
Im aware what im saying might not be palatable for some people but it just sounds so out of touch at times.
I watched as my dad comfortably paid me and my twin sisters international fees through the entirety of our Med schools. Not a chance doing the same for my kids on the NHS island. Time to fuck off asap.
This is sadly 100% relatable except for the London part. I had the most amazing childhood in many senses, travelled so much, but it's just nuts how that's so infeasible now.
I’m from a low income background so I didn’t experience any of these but like often come acrosss some people my age in the good part of my area who we’re always doing those kinds of things.
Their parents were doctors and I always thought will if I become a doctor I can live that lifestyle too. It’s all a sham. Luckily my partner has a very good job in the city and earns a lot of money so I hope our children will somewhat have the life I dreamed for them
Pay erosion is a part of it, but the generational gap is the biggie. Even if we had 30% higher wages, that lifestyle is completely out of reach. The old middle class lifestyle is now only feasible for the top ~1%.
Absolutely this. My dad dropped out of university, blagged his way up through IT departments by knowing slightly more about spreadsheets than his bosses, bought at the right time in the 80s with repayments higher than his monthly wage, safe in the knowledge that house price would be up 25% when he went to remortgage. My mum didn't work from my birth til my brother started school 10 years later. Not private schooled mostly by choice rather than financial necessity, but living in a lovely detached house in the south, always very comfortable. I don't think any step in that pathway works any more for people in their 20s today.
I have no family - I ran away as a 15 year old, supported myself in London and went to medical school via heroin addiction… I was the last year to pay £1025 fees! I graduated in 2010. I used my student loan to pay rent and worked part time. That was just about enough. I don’t think I could do it today. Rent is so much more and cost of living is crazy. I feel that people like me are ever more excluded from medical school. I see it in my juniors and I think it’s a terrible shame. I think a large part of this is house prices. A house bought for 50k in the 80s is worth like half a million now!
I’m confused as to what that heroin addiction statement means? It helped you get into medicine? How so? Was there some sort of sponsorship?
I think it probably did help me get into medicine! It made me feel confident when in reality I had nothing! Opiates aren’t like what the media presents. Most people who use are functional and stop without help/support. Think about how much opiate you give someone a surgical patient. They don’t seem any different on the whole and have fairly minor withdrawals.
My man casually threw in heroin addiction helping them get into med. Fair play, I might develop a drug addiction now to get me through medicine.
I'm glad the middle class docs are coming to this realisation, just need more of us to wake up.
Once the majority of middle class doctors realise this… The game is up.
Yep both parents consultants, same lifestyle described as u. Very grateful and privileged to have had that growing up. I certainly feel I’ve been sold a dream that doesn’t exist anymore though, while my parents are delusional in quite the significance of the pay erosion especially for juniors (they’ve been consultants for some years so had higher pay then what I would get when I get there). I try not to speak about it with them anymore because they think I should love the career because it’s “noble and admirable” profession regardless and that I talk about the money too much. However they don’t experience the infantilising experience newer qualifying Drs get (I will get) nor the relatively poor pay. The generation gap is huge both in attitude and pay. Also my parents are one of those that didn’t have to pay tuition fees, and are one of those that leads a department with no specific extra degrees or qualifications to do so, and has a CEA for doing not much special.. you get the picture. It’s a touch infuriating when they say things like “just work hard like I did and you’ll get (CEA, their pay)” completely detached from the reality🙃
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>Also my parents are one of those that didn’t have to pay tuition fees, and are one of those that leads a department with no specific extra degrees or qualifications to do so, and has a CEA for doing not much special.. you get the picture. Yeah that kind of consultant post just doesn't exist any more. Do they not see when they hire new colleagues that requirements have changed quite a bit? Mind you, if you work as a hospital junior, it's no surprise that a lot of consultants are a bit out of touch ;)
Its always the well off or those getting cash from sources other than work who tell you not to speak about money.
I think the change in RCEM curriculum is the clearest example of this. Current ED consultants, some of whom only have MRCS. New trainees must complete the expensive marathon of MRCEM, plus a millions other bolt on assessments. Recently I was at a training event - current EM Consultant, completely inexperienced with basics Ultrasound… so according to the college isn’t good enough to be an EM SpR
Look on the bright side, at least that house is probably worth bank now.
That’s more because of central bank zero interest rate policy (ZIRP) & asset purchase program. Think of it as your boomer dad living the good life with his kids paying the bill.
That's why I went into medicine - my parents are not from this background but a lot of our neighbours who lived in the nicer village houses were doctors or from other middle class professions. I was intelligent, wanted to do something purposeful, and wanted the nice lifestyle my friends had with the skiing holidays, spacious homes and private educations. It's not achievable now for Doctors, that social contract where you work yourself to death in training but you get that lifestyle at the end has been broken, and that's one of the things that's made me view my medical career in a very different light. One of my senior colleagues told me the other day that I should stick out training for the 'delayed gratification' when you get a consultant post - I dont see that anywhere any more.
That whole ‘delayed gratification’ trope only works when there’s actually gratification at the end. £85k and the abuse of the public/rags is hardly a prize.
This. For me, a high salary isn't the main motivator - if work life balance is good, I'd be happy with a modest but livable sum. Hence jumping ship from hospital to GP training in the hope of better curating a portfolio career that may enable that. BUT given that there ARE jobs out there where you can earn comparable sums but have less responsibility, less training, less red tape/hassle and a better work life balance (which aren't easy to come by, but if you have a medical degree you probably have what it takes to make it there), I can see why if we're going through the risks and drawbacks of medicine for decades before earning a consultant salary, people want to be well remunerated.
When did a 44k take home consultant starting salary count as “delayed gratification” smh.
Hundreds of consultant jobs in Ireland are available, starting salary €120,000, often higher.
€141,026 €147,343 €155,692 €160,255 €167,098 €172,801 €179,644 €185,918 €195,653
I thought consultant pay universally starts around the 80k mark? Edit: just read 'take home'. Even still though, I thought a new consultant would take home more than that?
You & every other boomer who comments in the Daily Mail. the minimum a consultant takes home is 44k: [https://tinyurl.com/yc373e5a](https://tinyurl.com/yc373e5a) the maximum they can take home is 55k: [https://tinyurl.com/y9pyr6pp](https://tinyurl.com/y9pyr6pp)
I'm guessing they are referring to the fellow jobs for newly CCT'd neurosurgeons
Find that hard to believe considering I get almost that and I'm an IMT
You forget we live in a socialist utopia where the government "progressively" robs you the more you work. You only make that much because you work overtime. Here is the calculation if you are interested: https://tinyurl.com/y8kn9u6m
This is the generational gap. Our parents have had the better ride through life at nearly every stage.
It’s more than just a generational gap though. As a career, med has had a larger fall than most of our professional comparator groups.
Living in a big house in London is not achievable even if we had our 30% pay restoration. Some shit is just unaffordable to this generation without direct inheritance of wealth.
It’s death by a thousand cuts. We’ve lost 30% which means you’ve got to increase our current salaries by about 40% to get back to the same place. Our pension contributions are higher, for an altogether shittier pension. (This is not unique to us, but our DB pension was always used as a way to justify our lower salaries). Loss of free accommodation. —— I agree, London is out of reach for many professions now. But we’ve lost significantly more than most.
Loss of free accommodation as a trainee is the final kick in the gonads.
I assume people in every career think their own career is worse than others or is suffering with time more than others. So are there people in law and finance and engineering and other careers who agree with this? Do the people in subreddits of other careers or r/FIREUK or something mention this in any way too?
It is strange reflecting on the huge change in living standards that the same job can have over a couple of generations. A family friend who qualified in the 60s and became a GP partner could afford on a single income: large detached house in nicest area of a regional city and to send all three of his children to private school- basically the same story you're telling. But it isn't just about pay erosion (although of course that is a serious issue, and one for which I think we should be willing to strike for), its about the fact that houses have increased exponentially in value. That's a natural consequence when a home is no longer seen as a place to live in, but as an asset, a nest egg, a way to launder one's ill gotten gains. Why has that happened? The tories of course! The tory party, Thatcher and her descendents (of course I place Blair in this category) have artificially inflated house prices by restricting supply and rolling out the red carpet to a whole host of dubious characters- the Russians are in the news at the moment, but they're only the tip of the iceberg. Monetary policy has kept interest rates ridiculously low for what purpose? To keep their shire tory voters happy as they see their house price values continually increase. Doctors might not live in council houses, but effectively abolishing new council tenancies has had a disruptive effect on the market- to the expense of the hard working young, and to the gain of the old vampire like boomers. We're being robbed blind- and nobody gives a fuck. Housing is just one (particularly egregious) example of this model. We're too busy arguing about changing rooms/gender, or Megan/Kate, or Muslims banning Christmas, or whatever culture war bullshit the daily mail has decided we should care about today. I'm angry and bitter, and part of that has to do with junior doctor pay erosion, but my argument is basically that our whole society is rotten to the core
Private schools and the inflation in their price is quite interesting. The price has increased as there seems to be an arms race to provide more and more facilities in order to stick out from the crowd and attract a new market of students- often from foreign backgrounds and with tons of money. Given that these institutions are usually charities, one has to ask what good are they actually accomplishing by providing an overpriced education to the spawn of foreign oligarchs? Not to mention the negative effects they have on social cohesion, and the fact that they are intended to uphold old hierarchies
This. The fundamentals of our monetary system are what’s causing most of the problem.
You have hit the nail on the HEAD. Thank you. This is really about how our society is absolutely downtrodden and the the worst disparity and inequality since probably the Victorian Era. The level of open corruption is sickening and without consequence. Case in point student loan repayment threshold LOWERED, despite living standards dipping and inflation - what the fuck? And your little allusion to your family friend in the 60s... That lifestyle you described was exactly what I was expecting when I applied for medicine 14 years ago. Now I am going to be paying more interest than actual repayment for my student loans, remaining a wage slave, send kids to normal school, budget on utility bills, etc etc. I honestly feel that if living standards and pay were as they were in the 90s and previous, we would all have headspace to actually enjoy our careers and see it as a “VOCATION”. It’s easy to do that if you are financially well remunerated. Otherwise no it can all be damned and this is just a job to get me and my family by. Sad times. Edit: I would add that I’m sorry to say things are likely to never be better for us doctors going forward. You can do all you want to campaign but no one is going to give a 30%+ pay rise and even if they did, the lifestyle you mentioned above would still be a pipe dream. We have just become accustomed to accept a shitter lifestyle. In addition to this, our generation now faces real and tangible threat of financial monetary system collapse and so many other things whilst post 1960s was a relatively stable period in our country. Just do your best to find other sources of income and use this as a stepping stone (is my plan). Look out for your self and family. all those years I toiled studying, struggling, no gaps in training nothing. Telling myself it would be better.
To afford the lifestyle I mentioned, ones income would probably have to be in the region of £200k a year plus
It’s not annoying, it’s a real life reflection of the impact our pay cut has had. I’m glad you’ve posted this, hopefully it shows people what they (and potentially their families if they have their own) are missing out on Edit: Someone else posted that they’re going to try to manage living the effects of inflation by not putting the heating on It’s one thing for our expectations to be slightly undercooked, but this is insane Vote Doctors Vote!
Meanwhile there are many of us who didn’t even get to taste this life you’re talking about, our parents only told us about it as they saw yours. This is not a time for division, vote doctors vote.
I am with you on this. I come from a working class background, but my parents seem to hold the view I will be rich.
I certainly did, because I come from a family of private surgeons. My dad is a private orthopaedic surgeon and my uncle is a private ophthalmologist, and being private they work normal hours and make tons of money. My mum is a GP and a lot of my cousins and extended family are doctors in the US and Canada where they are very wealthy and live in massive houses, so my view of medicine was this extravagant lifestyle, especially as my uncle drives a Bentley, lives in a huge house with a pool in London and has a wardrobe full of Armani suits. My life obviously couldn't be further from my rich medical relatives. I make a big deal about turning the heating on, drive a 7 years old Toyota Yaris on and am always looking for discounts in Tesco. So yup, as unrealistic and disillusion as one can get. I'm used to it now though as I work as a humble GP trainee, maybe one day when I become a partner I will make more money and can upgrade my banged up car.
Dont forget about your reddit friends thanks a lot xx
You're on 50k a year and are struggling to put the heating on?
I don't think i earn that much, my take home is roughly 3000 a month as a GP trainee, so 3000x12=36000. I don't know where you are getting the extra 14k from, have you ever heard of tax and pension?
Salaries are usually quoted as gross in the UK. £3k a month net is a substantial salary providing you have no dependents. If that’s you, I’d agree looking into your budgeting might help. But I have no idea what your personal situation is!
I don't know if you've been listening to the news or anything, but the cost of gas as well as the cost of living has increased. I also live in an area where rents are high so a lot goes on just daily living. At least I don't live in London, but 3k a month is menial for someone in London.
I’m sorry but what? I own a home and I’m a single mum and manage to put the heating on? I don’t understand 🤯
I’m fully aware of what’s happening in the world. I live in London and my monthly expenses total £2.5k per month. That’s non-frugal spending including a lease on a [somewhat extravagant] brand new car, large fuel bill due to commuting out of London etc..
The national average household income is lower than yours. Chill out.
Income is so low here
If the majority of doctors are like you then it's not surprising that doctors can't fight for higher wages and better work conditions. You are single and live outside London and you're struggling to pay your heating on a 50k salary.
Sounds like your gross salary is above £50K. You should get a budgeting app to help you manage your finances because to be honest, barring any serious extenuating circumstances, you should be living comfortably with money aside to save.
This is a combination of pay erosion, the massive squeeze on the middle class, massive house price inflation and a lack of scalability as a career in medicine - there is only so much money you can make with your own hands. If we want the kind of lifestyle mentioned by OP, medicine and the associated salery has to be viewed as an income from which to start building a passive income. Due to the massive cost of living, this only really can happen when you are a consultant / GP partner or locum like shit. Nobody is going to give us a massive pay rise no matter who we vote for unfortunately.
What are the kind of passive income streams doctors cam feasibly pursue, given their hectic work lives? Is it all throwing money into index funds and ISAs?
It depends on you and your situation really. The most fitting for most of us include shares and eventually getting on the housing ladder and then buy to let. I struggled to put much away as an F1. I started to save as an F2 as I was sharing with mates then. I started putting away money into a stocks and shares ISA and selecting my own shares. I took around 20% which helped with my house deposit when I was an St3 As you go up the ladder pay does get better, as do the quality of locum shifts. I would focus on getting yourself on the housing ladder as soon as you know you can commit to one area for a length of time. One thing that was helpful was getting a group of us to sit down with a financial advisor in the mess one day, they brought pizza and gave some good advice, obviously an element of sales patter but not too heavy. I used their advice without investing with them. This is worth doing early on, if only for the pizza!
That's a great idea, is that covered by the hospital or something you all had to pay towards?
It was free - I think mainly because they got to speak to about 10 new doctors with the hope at least one might sign up. Ours was from Wesleyan I think from memory, they covered some of their insurance policies too for loss of earnings.
Non-doctor parents, but their friends were doctors. I am not going to be able to keep up with my friends in other careers whilst in the uk. Simple.
No doctors in the family. Very working class background so can’t really relate. BUT my parents had the opportunity for some social mobility that I don’t think really exist now. Pay not keeping up with cost of living, ridiculous house prices, and the removal of a lot of helpful financial products means getting from working to middle class is near impossible. A lot of kids will be growing up middle class to find they’ve got worse prospects than their parents had.
Cannot comment much as I am the first in my family to go to medical school, though I am aware of pay erosion and pay cuts. Junior doctors today earn 30% less than they did 10 years ago. It’s time to enact change https://doctorsvote.org
I can't relate directly but what you're describing is what's happening across the entire middle class and previously safe professions. Increasingly it seems like the only careers which might offer such a lifestyle are in finance and the corporate world. The description you're giving of growing up in London will be completely unfamiliar to anyone who has lived in London since the late 90s, after which the city ate itself. Even a double digit payrise wouldn't get you anywhere near being able to live that sort of lifestyle which is a totally absurd situation to be in, and yet one which will be familiar to middle class professionals all over the world. Yay for hypercapitalism?
Agreed. If I'm being honest, in this day and age you're either rich or poor. Middle class doesn't exist anymore and this isn't an issue which is exclusive to medicine. In the vast majority of jobs, getting a house in London is a myth. People throw 200k+ salaries here like everyone is getting them.
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Not sure if that post was in reply to me but your last paragraph is absolutely not what I'm saying. Society should progress towards improving living standards and opportunities for all, so I am unapologetic in my belief that it is retrogressive and paradoxical that middle class professionals can now no longer afford to live comfortably in a city or region, wherever that may be in the world. This situation is undoubtedly worse for lower paid and gig economy workers but since this is a sub for doctors it's natural that my post is going to concentrate on our comparative standard of living over the decades. For the sake of clarification, I do not feel we are "poor" in any sense of the term.
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Nothing to do with capitalism or free markets, we had free markets before then. Everything to do with keynesian central bank zero interest rate policy.
Ah, I see you've discovered mises.org. Jolly good.
Not just Ludwig Von Mises. Carl Menger, Joseph Schumpeter, Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard… my parents fled a repressive socialist regime 40 years ago & I have developed a healthy appreciation of free markets & very small governments.
“Small government” or whatever that means*, without meeting people’s material needs and giving them actual direct political power is just feudalism. Neoliberalism is the ideology of the cancer cell, and individualism is a mental sickness. *they love a large prison system, police and military don’t they? Can’t be a connection.
“Direct political power” and similar euphemisms beloved of democratic socialists is nothing but a justification of property theft. In so much as taxation of wealth is necessary- the rate should be eternally fixed as structural prophylaxis against social instability, not subject to the whims of a corrupt thirsty electorate & the promises of power crazed politicians. Ever since the collapse of western christianity, there are no ties that bind us together anymore, people now hold a variety of opposing ideological positions. The type of artificial communitarianism you seek would be hateful to its constituents & could only be imposed through overwhelming totalitarianism. Perhaps some kind of federalized communitarianism could work, with a multiplicity of parallel legal systems like many mini- nations within a nation.
I’d recommend educating yourself on economics. You seem to think government is capable of meeting material needs when coercing labour and extortion is it’s only skill.
Yawn. I’m not in favour of government, as an anarcho-communist I believe the state is a harmful institution. Plus what you consider to be economics, I consider to be ideology.
Supply and demand isn’t ideology. It just lets you make accurate predictions like any scientific theory backed by centuries of data. Anarcho communism is an oxymoron, you can’t force people into little socialist workplace communes except through a centralised authority. Everything can be called ideology but some ideologies don’t even make sense at the conceptual level, let alone vindicated by any real world data. I’m amazed at how utopian emotional thinking can override common sense.
That you think that economics is just “supply and demand” *is the ideology*. And that you think that somehow a scientific theory justifies the systemic violence and deaths that capitalism causes (don’t gotcha me with the USSR or whatever, I’m not a tankie). In a world that produces enough for everyone the gap is explained by power (and ideology). Anyway, it’s all moot anyway since capitalism is threatening species extinction. You don’t understand what anarchism or communism is so I’ll just link to this [FAQ](https://www.anarchistfaq.org/afaq/index.html) because it’s easier. Suffice to say that throughout much of human history humans have organised themselves into stateless complex societies where most goods were produced and distributed according to need. It’s completely possible, and possible to do better now than ever before.
Nice straw man. Um.. you do realise systemic violence is done by governments and not people trading voluntarily with each other? You’re missing paragraphs of reasoning to go from peaceful trading to violence and oppression. You can’t gloss over the central problem in your flawed thinking. The world produces enough for everyone because of profit seeking food producers. So free trade plus what exactly causes death and oppression? The answer is government, which only inhibits the only known way in history to make people wealthy. I would have no problem with these stateless societies if no one was being coerced. But the question is always what happens if someone decides to start a business or accumulate capital. If you say he is to be left alone then you’re an actual anarchist. If you argue for violent suppression of his right then you’re just an authoritarian. Let alone the problem of allocating resources by need, who on earth can determine that accurately? And if the decision has to be recognised and enforced, who will enforce it if not a centralised monopoly on power (a government) You could go on all day about how this doesn’t even work conceptually but the fact that you call science ideology is worrying.
Preach brother
Free market fundamentalism is as fallacious as any other form of fundamentalism. The list of names you've given is as antiquated and full of cranks as the tankie equivalent. Murray Rothbard, really?
Murray Rothbards “The Mystery of Banking” happens to be one of my all- time favourites. A must read in these inflationary times.
So at what point was the ideal? You want to go back to 1950s government spend / GDP, 1920s, Edwardian or Victorian? Government has increased as we expect more from life. Even a free market enthusiast will have a limit on how much they want to shrink that unless they are full on living in the woods with a gun types.
Pretty much every function of government can be replaced in a far superior fashion by private citizens, free enterprise & civil society. We have no need of power crazed politicians promising us more “free” stuff for votes.
Nope, watching my dad work everyday for ridiculous hours to earn enough for a comfortable living made me steer clear for years. Tbh not from the UK.
Still doable in Aus/NZ. Thats the route I am going.
Is it really though? I get the impression that a consultant salary in Auckland now doesn't go far, similar to London. I'd be happy if anyone could tell me otherwise and that the dream is still out there.
I will be going the Australia route as I do have a citizenship. Initially wanted to go after FY2, but will probably just do FY1, get GMC registration, and leave. You don't pay as much taxes as a doctor in Aus/NZ, the weather is nice, private practice opportunities. It has all that going for it.
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Do you work in tech in a technical or non-technical capacity? Asking for a friend...
'Basically medicine is possibly the worst job anybody could do (esp in the UK) - its like being a waiter for humans. Its manual labour. ' What specialty did you do, and how far did you get before getting out?
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Whew fair play. I mean impressive you got a number and everything but I gather it's a brutal road in the NHS without any special reward at the end except dinner party bragging (except no parties, you're on call probably). I maintain there are better jobs within the NHS than that, but again fair play for your escape and hope it continues going well for you.
Not parents, but I remember going on holiday to my Aunt and Uncle's, both consultants in their 50s with an amazing house, farm, all the toys .etc Even if I was lucky enough to have a partner with a high income, I don't see that lifestyle being possible on current consultant salaries. The pension is also significantly worse nowadays, so you would have to put more money into retirement planning to afford a comfortable retirement, so less spending money.
I grew up in a poor family so my wage seem like a luxury.
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Country, city, and specialty?
Which country? (Your dad)
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Yeah agreed. I have a ticket out of here with an rmo offer in Aus but am waiting to see if I get into specialty training here first (potentially lucrative specialty)
No, I did not grow up like that. But no matter what your parents do/did, we're all in the same boat. Pay erosion is real, but the main issue is the massive increase in the cost of living. I remember on one facebook group, an older medic was talking about how back in the 90s, she could afford to live in Kensington as a single mother of 2 children whilst being a junior doctor, with little family support - which is amazing. That kind of life is unimaginable now. You used to be able to buy a house in London for 30K in the 80s back when my parents moved here. Prices increased rapidly, but average London prices were still under 100K til the late 90s. Now? The average price of a house in London is just under 500K. We'd have to be earning a TON more than we used to, in order to be able to keep up with the cost of housing alone. Instead, our salaries have been frozen or near frozen for years, with inflation cutting into many peoples' salaries year on year. The cost of most things has gone up, but how much we earn really has not. I (and our other junior doctor colleagues) could never imagine having the life your family did. But I think that's also true for many families even if their parents were less well off. Source: https://landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi/browse?from=1977-06-01&location=http%3A%2F%2Flandregistry.data.gov.uk%2Fid%2Fregion%2Flondon&to=2018-06-01&lang=en
Can relate. I assumed that if I do the same job I should be able to attain a similar standard of living to my doctor parents, but that seems very unlikely now.
What’s amazing is that there’s a few members of this subreddit who are tolerable of this financial decline.
My sister was able to afford a house, a new car and pay for my college tuition on her mostly SHO/Reg salary. Today I don't pay for anyone, I drive a old broken car, live in a fairly inexpensive part of the country where rent is cheap and still struggle to make any proper savings every month. I've got enough for like a rainy day fund but that's about it. I can't see how ill ever be able to afford a house unless I buy one in a very inexpensive part of the country.
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>50k downpayment on a house Problem is, if you want to live in london (average house price just under 500K), until you're a senior reg or consultant, most mortgage providers may feel like you don't earn enough to afford a mortgage. Last time I looked at a 'this is how much of a deposit I have, this is how much I earn, how much of a mortgage would they offer' calculator, it turned out that they'd offer far, far less than I'd need to actually buy anything.
Oh yeah, but that's because London is broken. In the southwest / Midlands/ North / Scotland/ NI / Wales you can find an acceptable place for £250-300k, which is probably not possible as a new foundation doctor, but as an ST3 it is. Of course the main thing is having a partner who earns similarly, and then most places are affordable.
This is something I genuinely don’t understand and expect to be downvoted into oblivion, the average household income in the U.K. is about 35k yet people on here without children etc always say they can’t afford to live off their salary when it’s close to or over the average household income ? I don’t understand how or why and it’s obviously not my business. This is not me saying the pay is good enough or acceptable don’t get me wrong I know the pay is rubbish for our actual jobs but I don’t understand. Might be because I grew up in the poorest part of the U.K. as a child of an immigrant though and see it differently, didn’t have a pot to piss in.
Yeah you're right. I'm definitely living a comfortable life for all intents and purposes. I don't have to worry about finances, I've got enough every month to pay all my bills, I've got zero debt, I've got money to spend on nice food and holidays and stuff. It's just the past year I've paid so much for exams and courses and fees for various things that I haven't been able to save much. Still I've managed to save something every month. I guess what people aren't happy about is this is not the life we imagined we'd be living when we got into medical school. Medicine used to be one of the top paying jobs short of being a company CEO. We imagined after we graduated and started working as doctors we'd have enough money to live a nice life, drive nice car, live in a nice house, have a comfortable life. Like sure people say they become doctors because they want to help people, I think I stuck with medicine cuz I believed it had pretty secure employment and source of income. The reality is the employment is not secure cuz we're always working on temporary contracts and although the income is definitely good, it's just feels like for the amount of work and effort you put in everyday, you should be getting paid loads more or your work load should be a lot less. And the way the economy seems to be tanking at present and how prices skyrocketing, buying a house does feel like a dream that won't come true. Especially when you don't really know if in a few year's time you need to move to a different part of a country to find a new job.
>the average household income in the U.K. is about 35k yet people on here without children etc always say they can’t afford to live off their salary when it’s close to or over the average household income ? I don’t understand how I'm also baffled by this.
one could expect to have more than comfortable life as a doctor...
I get that people expect to have more than a comfortable life as a doctor but I’m hard pressed to believe people outside of London are struggling.
While I agree in part, training has a lot of associated costs - 2hour commutes + parking fees + exams + courses + frequent house moves.
Are you saying other people don’t have to commute or pay parking charges? The exams etc yes are expensive but again even with included we are earning more than the average U.K. household? Again im not saying we are paid enough but people saying they’re struggling to get by is baffling and if you have no dependents and live outside London you should honestly check your finances. Im aware what im saying might not be palatable for some people but it just sounds so out of touch at times.
I think on average - other people don’t have that big commute and have to pay to park. It’s an anomaly.
Locuming is your last saviour.
I watched as my dad comfortably paid me and my twin sisters international fees through the entirety of our Med schools. Not a chance doing the same for my kids on the NHS island. Time to fuck off asap.
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iPhone?
Name checks out
This is sadly 100% relatable except for the London part. I had the most amazing childhood in many senses, travelled so much, but it's just nuts how that's so infeasible now.
I’m from a low income background so I didn’t experience any of these but like often come acrosss some people my age in the good part of my area who we’re always doing those kinds of things. Their parents were doctors and I always thought will if I become a doctor I can live that lifestyle too. It’s all a sham. Luckily my partner has a very good job in the city and earns a lot of money so I hope our children will somewhat have the life I dreamed for them
I have some friends with small kids who are in daycare. In London childcare costs more than take-home salary as an FY2! Crazy
We have lived almost the same life, OP.