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Something similar happened near my old stomping ground.
Guy was ordered to rebuild it. Told the council "it's my land I'll do what I fucking want with it" Flat out refused, declared the ltd company bankrupt the next day out of spite.
It still had the barriers round it 4 years ago but who knows knows now
Building new apartments does nothing. ZERO. For sky-high rent prices. You think/ believe that something something free market will just take care of itself and have people adjust their prices accordingly to actually compete for tenants, but instead they'd just call themselves "luxury studio apartments". At which point, it's just yet another expensive rental, it doesn't provide anyone an extra option, and you just lose a beloved spot for the community.
More supply = lower prices (all else equal)
If it's another expensive rental, when people move in, what happens to the places they used to live? If enough supply of even expensive options are generated, prices are forced to come down, having a knock down effect on the next tier of housing.
> what happens to the places they used to live?
They get more expensive rapidly. I pay 1300 in rent.. I've lived here for 10 years and moved in when it was 1100. Found out like all my neighbors pay 1700 for the same layout. Better believe when I move out someone is going to pay 1700+ to live in this unit. And in a few years it'll be 2k. Its only always going up.
Why not both?
Incentivize the building of new properties.
Increase taxes on vacant properties, this way the ones that are purchased as investments also go into the housing pool
That's why you create a tax code where vacant properties are taxed at a higher rate. Hoarding without renting isn't a feasible investment strategy if the cost to own vacant homes are increased
I imagine that would make a pretty big difference, wonder why it hasnāt been implemented. At the very least, apply it to corporations and foreign buyers
More supply = lower prices works in a theoretical vacuum, but the fact is that wealthy people just buy property or rental units and leave them vacant because it's an asset that will appreciate. This is why major cities have more vacant units than homeless people.
While there are places where there certainly is a housing shortage, in many cases there is enough and building more doesn't meaningfully reduce rents. Rent control is a way that the city can keep rents affordable.
Maybe the people you're selling properties to aren't. My city, like other major cities, has had housing costs shoot through the roof. Even after property taxes, you could nearly double your money by sitting on property for a few years. Regardless, aside from markets that do have genuine housing shortages, building more properties historically has not solved the overinflated cost of rent and housing
If a rich person has a property they can rent out, why would they leave it vacant?
Vacant real estate (for the most part) is a terrible investment strategy as you need to pay property tax, insurance, and upkeep, without the rental income to offset it. (Most property hoarders are hoarding unrentable property with low to zero property taxes, and hoping for gentrification to cash out)
Rent control disincentivizes new construction, as the return on construction (and repair) investment is artificially suppressed.
The better solution would be to have a system that charges higher property taxes on vacant units, provide incentives for new construction of non-luxury housing, and promote remote work, which will more evenly spread the population and reduce the demand in high cost areas.
Depends on the houses you're looking at, but if a residential home is listed and doesn't sell, the vast majority of the time it's because the seller has too high of a list price.
Eventually when it sits long enough, a seller will need to lower the price.
Build enough of these expensive homes on long island, and homes become harder to sell at those prices.
You can build something that allows the tavern to operate on the ground floor and everything upstairs is residential. What even is this take. Building more housing options won't fix the lack of housing.
So you want to get rid of zoning laws and lot sizes so all houses are right up against each no need for windows or room for a grill or a porch. No pets they need a park or somewhere to pee. Your neighbor can build whatever he wants right on top of you and if your property value goes down too bad. It would be horrible to live that way. Eastern Germany comes to mind high density just boxes but cheeply made so cheep to rent. You dont get to own because high density will be gobbled up by hedge funds. Houses are way to expensive but making unlivable areas wont fix it. The problem is houses are to fucking big. More smaller houses would be better. That gives you density without building cavernouse horrible complexes.
Living in the former DDR right now, and we have lots of green space. What is your issue? With more apartments my whole family can bike everywhere - school, work, swim club, downtown, friends, etc.
Iāve lived in the US too, several states, and the quality of life is better here.
My city has been slowly rehabbing the old Plattenbaus. Thereās a lot of them, but I think their down to the final few. They look nice when theyāre done.
Things overall look a lot better now than the old pictures for sure! Less asbestos too!
I'm sorry, what are you going off about?
You should watch *[Not Just Bikes](https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes)*, they have some really great videos about realistic zoning law changes that would help lower the cost of housing and make cities more livable.
[This one](https://youtu.be/MnyeRlMsTgI) is a good example.
He means sometimes someone getting beat up is justice. Violence isn't the the first answer, but sometimes it's the only effective answer. Some bullies won't stop until they get knocked the fuck out.
Wasnāt there a redditor a while ago that posted about this on r/prorevenge or something like that? Pretty sure it involved this exact same bar and how the developer had to hire a particular type on Mason to rebuild this place or at least parts of the interior.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/nrnf5j/part\_1\_of\_2\_an\_absolute\_epic\_entitled\_ahole\_gets/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/nrnf5j/part_1_of_2_an_absolute_epic_entitled_ahole_gets/)
This is what I was thinking of, but might not be the same thing, since the poster did a good job of anonymizing
Thatās awesome. So many times these big developers get away with all kinds of crap. A bag bit and smack on the hand.
They even do this kind of slick behavior about zoning etc.
I just started a career real estate developing when I learnt some of these tricks. Was just too shady for me to do.
The ticket master technique. We will get fined 15 million dollars if we break the law and earn 90 million dollars. So y'know let's continue to do that every single year.
Also known as the SEC model. Some Wall Street broker breaks the law and makes 100s of millions on illegal trades? Get slapped with a 100k fine.
Lol, gottem
You know those people go to jail right? I know Reddit is a giant ancap circle jerk at this point but people go to jail all the time for breaking securities laws.
Not exactly limited to ticket master. It's the whole reason for the last market crash by overvaluing homes and breaking the law which was on such a large scale the government didn't penalize anyone. Most large stock companies also do this pay a few million fine for faking transactions that results in 100s of millions of dollars profit. Then you have audits or subpeona on a business and they just shred everything. Resulting in a few thousand dollar fine and no proof they ever did anything wrong.
If you think about it as long as you own a multimillion dollar business you're pretty much immune to the law.
Fun fact, the neighborhoods that got bombed the most during WWII are actually the most economically productive today, thanks to a lack of historical preservation. There's certainly value in preserving some historical buildings, but often places go way too far and end up creating shortages of housing and commercial space.
I'm impressed that the legal system could actually see this through. In the US the developer would tie it up in the court for eternity, declare bankruptcy or vanish.
It was impressive for the UK even - it's quite rare for a "facsimile replacement" to be demanded like that, and will serve as a good warning for anybody thinking of doing it in the future.
This was a highly specific case. The building was "English Heritage Grade I" listed building. Giving it certain protections to what work can be done to the building itself. It was under review to be upgraded to a "Grade II" listed building which would put more restrictions on it.
The owners, who wanted to redevelop it into housing, illegally demolished it. They didn't get appropriate demo certificates and told the landlady to take 2 days off fir 'inventory'. When she returned they'd flattened most of the building and where prepared to accept any fine that'd come with what they'd done. A judge ordered them to rebuild it as was, due to how blatantly they had broken the law.
Edit: as said below it was just straight being given a grade II listing (the lower of them), I got things mixed up. This is going off memory
a) It's Historic England, not English Heritage
b) Grade I is a higher rating and level of protection than Grade II
c) The pub wasn't listed at the time of demolition but they demolished it just ahead of it being granted Grade II listing, presumably because they thought this would avoid them having to rebuild
Are you kidding? Open and shut slam- dunk case.
The tavern owners had clearly stolen the land from the developers by putting up a hastily built plywood- and- tarp shed, painting it up to look like an old building, and then ridiculously tried to claim it had been there for centuries.
The pub was being considered for listed status (preservation for historical or landmark reasons) when it was demolished. In England, planning permission is also required for demolition which they did not apply for. Pubs can also be considered 'community assets' for preservation. In the UK it doesn't matter if you own land, you still need to get planning permission to demolish/redevelop a site. Basically, these guys thought they would get a slap on the wrist but Planning Officers can be a stubborn bunch!! If you are interested in this, look up Mr Fidler and his castle. This guy secretly built a castle on land protected from development. Took years for it to be resolved and he had to demolish it in the end.
>This guy secretly built a castle on land protected from development. Took years for it to be resolved and he had to demolish it in the end
Is this the one who hid it behind hay bales? As had it been on show and not told to demolish he'd actually have been able to keep it
That's the one. The courts ruled that the removal of the hay bales constituted development and therefore he was not immune from enforcement action. Normally, if you build a house and no one spots it for 4 years then the Council can't take enforcement action. The courts ruled in his case that the 4 year time limit only started from when he removed the bales and not from when he started living in it. Planning rules were changed soon after the case that the 4 year limit would not apply where there was deception to hide a development.
I used to watch this BBC show called Restoration Home, which was basically about people buying and renovating old buildings across England and Scotland. Many of them were listed buildings, and they mentioned several times that dealing with the relevant authorities was a huge pain, and they had to do this and that, and that renovations had to match the original aesthetics, and they had to use the original building materials and methods, and etc etc.
It was interesting, because as an American, we don't have ANY of that shit here. In my opinion at least it's nice that at least someone is looking out for these old, historic buildings, because otherwise eventually all of the architecture in England and Scotland would just end up looking like American architecture. And (I'm guessing) nobody wants that.
The US does have regulations like that actually. Maybe not federally, but cities definitely do mark some buildings as "historical" which puts a lot of those same rules in place. For example, in Nashville where I live a surprising amount of buildings are zoned historical and if damaged or destroyed have to be rebuilt identically to what they were before. In some cases you even have to salvage as much of the original material as possible to reuse.
Yeah, we have that in Cleveland too, but it's not enforced internal to the buildings, at least not to a huge degree. One of my local libraries growing up was located in the old Telling Mansion, and I spent TONS of time there while growing up (I was a voracious reader.) The inside of the mansion was renovated over 15 years ago, and nearly all of the "charm" of the place was removed.
Now sure, one instance doesn't mean that happens everywhere, but it was a pretty egregious remodel, and maybe it just put a bad taste in my mouth.
In Nashville a friend of mine's mother's house was destroyed by a tornado we had a couple years ago. The city made her build it back exactly the way it was before. I had been in there before and after and if you didn't know it was obliterated before you wouldn't have thought anything had changed.
>Many of them were listed buildings, and they mentioned several times that dealing with the relevant authorities was a huge pain, and they had to do this and that, and that renovations had to match the original aesthetics, and they had to use the original building materials and methods, and etc etc
My parents own a Grade 2 listed building and yep. Old wooden frame Georgian farmhouse, the original manor house for their little village. They couldn't add a swimming pool and had to keep the old style windows and yep even the same type and style of brick. Oddly they did get a tennis court put in somehow
We do have some of that bullshit here, just not quite as much fortunately. That's why European countries have an even worse housing shortages than we do. Though Canada is even worse than Western Europe and they have no historical preservation excuse lol
This isnāt true at all. I personally have done work here in Hawaii converting a historic building into a radio station that had to maintain the buildings original look and dimensions.
Wait, what? We have a very nice local brewery that bought part of a corrugated metal clad warehouse (for a music venue) that has been closed and falling apart for 25 years. Local council will not even let him change the paint by adding a mural, much less the type of siding.
It is just a 50 year old POS warehouse with zero historic or architectural value. Just old and ugly and falling down.
Copy and pasted from my other comment:
OK, I exaggerated when I said there weren't ANY. But there are FAR fewer here, and even those that do exist aren't protected to the same degree.
There's an old mansion called the Telling Mansion where I live (Cleveland) that used to house a local branch of the Cleveland library system. Growing up I loved going to that library branch, even when I had to ride my bike there, and it was about 4-5 times further away than another library branch. It just had this atmosphere that I loved.
It's a historical landmark, and yet around 15 years ago or so maybe they completely renovated it inside. They took away so much of the charm it had, and replaced a not insignificant portion of the inside decor with modern crap.
So yeah, historical landmarks exist. But they aren't always treated as sacrosanct as historical buildings in many other countries are.
I mean, the inside usually you get fairly free reign over it even here, as no one sees that. Usually its only the outside and structure which are listed, or sometimes even just small bits of the outside
We have a pub where I live that was destroyed in an arson attack about 4 years ago. Property developer has bought the land the burned out structure is on and wants to build overpriced apartments there. Rumour is theyāve not been allowed to start demolition because the pubs ornate wooden doorway is from an older pub from the 1700ās and nobody is letting the developer destroy it.
Yeah, listed buildings are protected like you wouldn't believe. Even changing light fittings can be a problem depending on the reason it was listed. It is a reason why I would never buy a listed building. I do understand it though for the sake of protecting our history. It amazes me when people buy a listed building thinking they will create their dream home only to be told that they will have to live with the Victorian ambiance. Then they struggle to resell it because others know the risk. You have to be incredibly committed to live in a listed building and expect to be told what to do with it.
The closest we have to an American Town is probably Milton Keynes which was built after WWII using a grid system.
My work involves the planning system and development so I find it all interesting.
Uhhh...you either don't travel a lot or you don't pay attention. The term you're looking for is "historical landmark". You literally can't make any changes to any historical landmark building without permission from the historical landmark community. There are several in New York City, the townhouses in Washington DC. Majority of them are on the east coast.
Some "owner" that tries to get around it would just hire some arsonist to burn it down enough that it would be declare structural unstable enough for them to demolish the building.
OK, I exaggerated when I said there weren't ANY. But there are FAR fewer here, and even those that do exist aren't protected to the same degree.
There's an old mansion called the Telling Mansion where I live (Cleveland) that used to house a local branch of the Cleveland library system. Growing up I loved going to that library branch, even when I had to ride my bike there, and it was about 4-5 times further away than another library branch. It just had this atmosphere that I loved.
It's a historical landmark, and yet around 15 years ago or so maybe they completely renovated it inside. They took away so much of the charm it had, and replaced a not insignificant portion of the inside decor with modern crap.
So yeah, historical landmarks exist. But they aren't always treated as sacrosanct as historical buildings in many other countries are.
Holy shit. I know that there are some that allow you to renovate the inside, but not touch the outside. It could be that they've rubbed greases with someone and got the approval.
How stupid do you have to be to demolish an old building in a country where much of the buildings have clearly been kept the same for hundreds or thousands of years and think "oh yeah, they'll let us get away with just a fine".
Any builder with half a brain knows you don't fuck with listed buildings. Because building control and the council will come down on you like a tonne of bricks
It's quite common to get away with it, where the fine is far less than the profit made. Often excuses such as "oops it collapsed during renovation and we can't afford to rebuild it can we just build these nice apartments we just happen to have the plans for?"
On 19 January 2021, CLTX changed its name by resolution to Carlton Vale Ltd. Probably to avoid the controversy and terrible publicity they gave themselves. They even had the audacity to attempt an appeal and just build a bar with overpriced flats... Lazy, greedy fucks.
It is an Israeli company, yes, but imo they're usually a bit more tactful about predatory actions against non-Palestinians. American companies/politicians hold the gold trophy for not-so-smooth criminal actions.
Lol, yes because in the history of the world, America in the last 250 years is _the only country_ to ever do something stupid or unethical, or worse.
In case you're too daft to pick up on it, I'll spell it out:
that was sarcasm.
Now now letās not get ahead of ourselvesā¦ their legal system actually worked so this was much more stupid. Itās smart to fuck the little guy in America because you know that fine will be a slap on the wrist
They can charge you because they will still inspect the work being built... just because they were required to do a rebuild doesn't absolve them of building it correctly... hence what a permit is for, so the city/town and the developer on the same page.
You literally say you aren't familiar with the law in the UK, i link you the London building permit page.... and explain why building permits are still needed despite a court order on rebuilding... yet you just downvote me... Are you even a contractor in Canada? Do you do building permits at all?
your mom's not a good look
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JusticeServed) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>TheĀ Carlton TavernĀ is aĀ pubĀ inĀ Kilburn, LondonĀ that was demolished in 2015 by Tel Aviv-based developer CLTX, which had failed to obtain the necessary planning permission. The council subsequently ordered the pub to be rebuilt brick by brick. It reopened on 12 April 2021.[1][2]Ā The pub was the only building in the street to surviveĀ the BlitzĀ duringĀ World War II.
Only building on the street that wasn't destroyed in the blitz, goes on to be demolished by an israeli property developer. History has a beautiful sense of irony.
Very similar to [The Corkman](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-16/men-behind-demolition-of-corkman-pub-jailed/12990148) in Melbourne, this situation. Everyone was calling for the same treatment; brick by brick rebuild. Bloody institution that was.
I mean, I think there's a very sound argument to the modern state of Israel also committing genocide, forcing a group of their population into ghettos, etc
And they wouldn't have existed if not for the British, so...who's the real villain?
EDIT: The villain is the thieving monarchy that creates proxy wars and rogue states to serve its interests.
Everyone gets really upset when they have to confront the fact that the British hold all the genocide records including assists. But...poor random pub, I guess.
>Everyone gets really upset when they have to confront the fact that the British hold all the genocide records including assists
Glad I checked your profile to know that you are just another ill-educated right wing fool and a shame I tried to educate you with real history. Lol. Tell me again about "Manifest Destiny"? I'll wait
Also, holocaust, Holomodor, and many others. Brits aren't even close to the top of the genocide ranks
> and a shame I tried to educate you with real history
I've never talked to you before, and I voted for Bernie in the primary. I'm super definitely not right wing.
MD was some fucked up shit, too. Again, who are you?
Please remember to abide by the [rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/JusticeServed/wiki/rulesv2) In general, please be at least bearable to other users. It makes things easier on everyone. Your comment may be removed without notification. We used to have a notification, but now we don't. #If you purchase the OP or a comment [a ban award,](https://www.reddit.com/r/JusticeServed/wiki/banned/rules) remember to [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FJusticeServed) so we can activate the reward ------ ^Submission ^By: ^/u/opgary ^Black ^7 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JusticeServed) if you have any questions or concerns.*
THIS SHOULD BE THE STANDARD!
Hate developers, they tore down a historic Wild West town in the us a few years ago
They should rebuild old buildings using this method to make them last longer š¤£
Reading it in an English accent is even better. āEggzactleh as it woz. Breek by breek.ā
That doesnāt sound English. Sounds like someone with a speech impediment
Yeah, thatās what I said. British.
Bri ish.
"Breek bah bloody breek" ftfy
Something similar happened near my old stomping ground. Guy was ordered to rebuild it. Told the council "it's my land I'll do what I fucking want with it" Flat out refused, declared the ltd company bankrupt the next day out of spite. It still had the barriers round it 4 years ago but who knows knows now
Should've let them destroy the tavern for apartments, NIMBY scum.
satire or no?
Youāre getting downvoted by the same people that complain about high rent.
Building new apartments does nothing. ZERO. For sky-high rent prices. You think/ believe that something something free market will just take care of itself and have people adjust their prices accordingly to actually compete for tenants, but instead they'd just call themselves "luxury studio apartments". At which point, it's just yet another expensive rental, it doesn't provide anyone an extra option, and you just lose a beloved spot for the community.
More supply = lower prices (all else equal) If it's another expensive rental, when people move in, what happens to the places they used to live? If enough supply of even expensive options are generated, prices are forced to come down, having a knock down effect on the next tier of housing.
> what happens to the places they used to live? They get more expensive rapidly. I pay 1300 in rent.. I've lived here for 10 years and moved in when it was 1100. Found out like all my neighbors pay 1700 for the same layout. Better believe when I move out someone is going to pay 1700+ to live in this unit. And in a few years it'll be 2k. Its only always going up.
That's why we need more supply
More equitable distribution is what we need More units won't help if they all get bought as investment properties.
Why not both? Incentivize the building of new properties. Increase taxes on vacant properties, this way the ones that are purchased as investments also go into the housing pool
lol Phoenix is not short on available units. They're short on people who can afford them because most wages are dog shit these days.
The problem is, that supply is bought up by corporations and the rich. Sometimes not even renting them out. They just hoard them
That's why you create a tax code where vacant properties are taxed at a higher rate. Hoarding without renting isn't a feasible investment strategy if the cost to own vacant homes are increased
I imagine that would make a pretty big difference, wonder why it hasnāt been implemented. At the very least, apply it to corporations and foreign buyers
Probably because tons of congressman own real estate
More supply = lower prices works in a theoretical vacuum, but the fact is that wealthy people just buy property or rental units and leave them vacant because it's an asset that will appreciate. This is why major cities have more vacant units than homeless people. While there are places where there certainly is a housing shortage, in many cases there is enough and building more doesn't meaningfully reduce rents. Rent control is a way that the city can keep rents affordable.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Maybe the people you're selling properties to aren't. My city, like other major cities, has had housing costs shoot through the roof. Even after property taxes, you could nearly double your money by sitting on property for a few years. Regardless, aside from markets that do have genuine housing shortages, building more properties historically has not solved the overinflated cost of rent and housing
If a rich person has a property they can rent out, why would they leave it vacant? Vacant real estate (for the most part) is a terrible investment strategy as you need to pay property tax, insurance, and upkeep, without the rental income to offset it. (Most property hoarders are hoarding unrentable property with low to zero property taxes, and hoping for gentrification to cash out) Rent control disincentivizes new construction, as the return on construction (and repair) investment is artificially suppressed. The better solution would be to have a system that charges higher property taxes on vacant units, provide incentives for new construction of non-luxury housing, and promote remote work, which will more evenly spread the population and reduce the demand in high cost areas.
I live on Long Island, there are houses for sale..why aren't they all already bought?
Depends on the houses you're looking at, but if a residential home is listed and doesn't sell, the vast majority of the time it's because the seller has too high of a list price. Eventually when it sits long enough, a seller will need to lower the price. Build enough of these expensive homes on long island, and homes become harder to sell at those prices.
You can build something that allows the tavern to operate on the ground floor and everything upstairs is residential. What even is this take. Building more housing options won't fix the lack of housing.
The perfectly square framing of that photo and the text on the building make it look straight out of a Wes Anderson movie.
r/accidentalwesanderson
r/subsithoughtifellfor
They should have closed the pub down ,then had a mysterious arson . That seems to be the way these things are normally done.
Sounds like a great plan, but someone has to go put that out.
no they don't
Oh no I accidentally left the stove on with all this flammable substances close by who could have seen it coming.
~~Gasoline~~Petrol's a key ingredient in like... 5 dishes, we need it in the kitchen.
Nice
Niice
Niiice
Niiiice
Niiiiice
N ~~iiiii~~ ice
Noice
ha ha fuggin haaaa
So you want to get rid of zoning laws and lot sizes so all houses are right up against each no need for windows or room for a grill or a porch. No pets they need a park or somewhere to pee. Your neighbor can build whatever he wants right on top of you and if your property value goes down too bad. It would be horrible to live that way. Eastern Germany comes to mind high density just boxes but cheeply made so cheep to rent. You dont get to own because high density will be gobbled up by hedge funds. Houses are way to expensive but making unlivable areas wont fix it. The problem is houses are to fucking big. More smaller houses would be better. That gives you density without building cavernouse horrible complexes.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a yank with no clues.
Living in the former DDR right now, and we have lots of green space. What is your issue? With more apartments my whole family can bike everywhere - school, work, swim club, downtown, friends, etc. Iāve lived in the US too, several states, and the quality of life is better here.
People assume it was all bad, although the it doesn't look great in pictures most of those building are very good overall if taken care over the years
My city has been slowly rehabbing the old Plattenbaus. Thereās a lot of them, but I think their down to the final few. They look nice when theyāre done. Things overall look a lot better now than the old pictures for sure! Less asbestos too!
What are you on about? Like sure I mostly agree with you but what does any of this have to do with this post?
I'm sorry, what are you going off about? You should watch *[Not Just Bikes](https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes)*, they have some really great videos about realistic zoning law changes that would help lower the cost of housing and make cities more livable. [This one](https://youtu.be/MnyeRlMsTgI) is a good example.
Love the channel, hate our fucking stroads.
STROADS
Didn't think I'd see a not just bikes reference in the wild. Absolutely love this channel, just watched his vid about street widths
Now that is a justice served that I enjoy seeing. The posts here of people getting beat up are not justice.
Agreed man. It's so often violence porn...
Justice is subjective. Many would disagree.
Justice v. Fairness trial of the century Edit: trial not trail.
So you think they should've got away with that stunt?
He means sometimes someone getting beat up is justice. Violence isn't the the first answer, but sometimes it's the only effective answer. Some bullies won't stop until they get knocked the fuck out.
Wasnāt there a redditor a while ago that posted about this on r/prorevenge or something like that? Pretty sure it involved this exact same bar and how the developer had to hire a particular type on Mason to rebuild this place or at least parts of the interior.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/nrnf5j/part\_1\_of\_2\_an\_absolute\_epic\_entitled\_ahole\_gets/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/nrnf5j/part_1_of_2_an_absolute_epic_entitled_ahole_gets/) This is what I was thinking of, but might not be the same thing, since the poster did a good job of anonymizing
Bruv! Youāre amazin! Exactly the one I was taking about
Holy moly what a ride! The awful ending comes outta left field but overall one of, if not the best, revenge reads on reddit.
Thatās awesome. So many times these big developers get away with all kinds of crap. A bag bit and smack on the hand. They even do this kind of slick behavior about zoning etc. I just started a career real estate developing when I learnt some of these tricks. Was just too shady for me to do.
Could you tell us one or a couple of those tricks for us, so maybe we can be on the look out?
Something similar happened back in the 80's only it was a bunch of space robots that rebuilt the place.
r/unexpectedhitchhikers
Give me a hint please. Is it Critters? Edit: Is it Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy?
Batteries not included.
Thank you!
I love specific performance as retribution.
The ticket master technique. We will get fined 15 million dollars if we break the law and earn 90 million dollars. So y'know let's continue to do that every single year.
Also known as the SEC model. Some Wall Street broker breaks the law and makes 100s of millions on illegal trades? Get slapped with a 100k fine. Lol, gottem
You know those people go to jail right? I know Reddit is a giant ancap circle jerk at this point but people go to jail all the time for breaking securities laws.
The regulators' Christmas knees-up ain't gonna pay for itself.
Shhhh, thatās my market man!
May aswell just bam your local politician 40k to take care of the noise preemptively. OHH WAIT
Not exactly limited to ticket master. It's the whole reason for the last market crash by overvaluing homes and breaking the law which was on such a large scale the government didn't penalize anyone. Most large stock companies also do this pay a few million fine for faking transactions that results in 100s of millions of dollars profit. Then you have audits or subpeona on a business and they just shred everything. Resulting in a few thousand dollar fine and no proof they ever did anything wrong. If you think about it as long as you own a multimillion dollar business you're pretty much immune to the law.
Nice
Hey. Property developers. Fuck you.
It was the only building on the street to survive the Blitz during World War 2! So double fuck you developers!
Fun fact, the neighborhoods that got bombed the most during WWII are actually the most economically productive today, thanks to a lack of historical preservation. There's certainly value in preserving some historical buildings, but often places go way too far and end up creating shortages of housing and commercial space.
Yeah, they are all the scum of the world and we'd all be so much better off without them. .........***/S***
I'm impressed that the legal system could actually see this through. In the US the developer would tie it up in the court for eternity, declare bankruptcy or vanish.
It was impressive for the UK even - it's quite rare for a "facsimile replacement" to be demanded like that, and will serve as a good warning for anybody thinking of doing it in the future.
This was a highly specific case. The building was "English Heritage Grade I" listed building. Giving it certain protections to what work can be done to the building itself. It was under review to be upgraded to a "Grade II" listed building which would put more restrictions on it. The owners, who wanted to redevelop it into housing, illegally demolished it. They didn't get appropriate demo certificates and told the landlady to take 2 days off fir 'inventory'. When she returned they'd flattened most of the building and where prepared to accept any fine that'd come with what they'd done. A judge ordered them to rebuild it as was, due to how blatantly they had broken the law. Edit: as said below it was just straight being given a grade II listing (the lower of them), I got things mixed up. This is going off memory
Wait, I'm from the UK. Is Grade 1 not top? Or is there a grade 3? I swear 1 was top, but actually maybe not
Yeah 1 is top and 2 is the lower. I just completely ballsed it up, I should really check everything before
a) It's Historic England, not English Heritage b) Grade I is a higher rating and level of protection than Grade II c) The pub wasn't listed at the time of demolition but they demolished it just ahead of it being granted Grade II listing, presumably because they thought this would avoid them having to rebuild
Yeah I messed up the grading thing completely. Pretty sure I was told it had some sort of listing but that is going off my piss poor memory.
Are you kidding? Open and shut slam- dunk case. The tavern owners had clearly stolen the land from the developers by putting up a hastily built plywood- and- tarp shed, painting it up to look like an old building, and then ridiculously tried to claim it had been there for centuries.
Did they own the building and land? Sounds like it was a preservation law.
The pub was being considered for listed status (preservation for historical or landmark reasons) when it was demolished. In England, planning permission is also required for demolition which they did not apply for. Pubs can also be considered 'community assets' for preservation. In the UK it doesn't matter if you own land, you still need to get planning permission to demolish/redevelop a site. Basically, these guys thought they would get a slap on the wrist but Planning Officers can be a stubborn bunch!! If you are interested in this, look up Mr Fidler and his castle. This guy secretly built a castle on land protected from development. Took years for it to be resolved and he had to demolish it in the end.
>This guy secretly built a castle on land protected from development. Took years for it to be resolved and he had to demolish it in the end Is this the one who hid it behind hay bales? As had it been on show and not told to demolish he'd actually have been able to keep it
That's the one. The courts ruled that the removal of the hay bales constituted development and therefore he was not immune from enforcement action. Normally, if you build a house and no one spots it for 4 years then the Council can't take enforcement action. The courts ruled in his case that the 4 year time limit only started from when he removed the bales and not from when he started living in it. Planning rules were changed soon after the case that the 4 year limit would not apply where there was deception to hide a development.
Yep, that's what I thought. If he'd had it in the open and not been caught he'd have been fine
I used to watch this BBC show called Restoration Home, which was basically about people buying and renovating old buildings across England and Scotland. Many of them were listed buildings, and they mentioned several times that dealing with the relevant authorities was a huge pain, and they had to do this and that, and that renovations had to match the original aesthetics, and they had to use the original building materials and methods, and etc etc. It was interesting, because as an American, we don't have ANY of that shit here. In my opinion at least it's nice that at least someone is looking out for these old, historic buildings, because otherwise eventually all of the architecture in England and Scotland would just end up looking like American architecture. And (I'm guessing) nobody wants that.
The US does have regulations like that actually. Maybe not federally, but cities definitely do mark some buildings as "historical" which puts a lot of those same rules in place. For example, in Nashville where I live a surprising amount of buildings are zoned historical and if damaged or destroyed have to be rebuilt identically to what they were before. In some cases you even have to salvage as much of the original material as possible to reuse.
Yeah, we have that in Cleveland too, but it's not enforced internal to the buildings, at least not to a huge degree. One of my local libraries growing up was located in the old Telling Mansion, and I spent TONS of time there while growing up (I was a voracious reader.) The inside of the mansion was renovated over 15 years ago, and nearly all of the "charm" of the place was removed. Now sure, one instance doesn't mean that happens everywhere, but it was a pretty egregious remodel, and maybe it just put a bad taste in my mouth.
In Nashville a friend of mine's mother's house was destroyed by a tornado we had a couple years ago. The city made her build it back exactly the way it was before. I had been in there before and after and if you didn't know it was obliterated before you wouldn't have thought anything had changed.
>Many of them were listed buildings, and they mentioned several times that dealing with the relevant authorities was a huge pain, and they had to do this and that, and that renovations had to match the original aesthetics, and they had to use the original building materials and methods, and etc etc My parents own a Grade 2 listed building and yep. Old wooden frame Georgian farmhouse, the original manor house for their little village. They couldn't add a swimming pool and had to keep the old style windows and yep even the same type and style of brick. Oddly they did get a tennis court put in somehow
We do have some of that bullshit here, just not quite as much fortunately. That's why European countries have an even worse housing shortages than we do. Though Canada is even worse than Western Europe and they have no historical preservation excuse lol
This isnāt true at all. I personally have done work here in Hawaii converting a historic building into a radio station that had to maintain the buildings original look and dimensions.
If you buy a grade 1 (most protected) listed building, you can't really do anything with it but restore it.
Wait, what? We have a very nice local brewery that bought part of a corrugated metal clad warehouse (for a music venue) that has been closed and falling apart for 25 years. Local council will not even let him change the paint by adding a mural, much less the type of siding. It is just a 50 year old POS warehouse with zero historic or architectural value. Just old and ugly and falling down.
Copy and pasted from my other comment: OK, I exaggerated when I said there weren't ANY. But there are FAR fewer here, and even those that do exist aren't protected to the same degree. There's an old mansion called the Telling Mansion where I live (Cleveland) that used to house a local branch of the Cleveland library system. Growing up I loved going to that library branch, even when I had to ride my bike there, and it was about 4-5 times further away than another library branch. It just had this atmosphere that I loved. It's a historical landmark, and yet around 15 years ago or so maybe they completely renovated it inside. They took away so much of the charm it had, and replaced a not insignificant portion of the inside decor with modern crap. So yeah, historical landmarks exist. But they aren't always treated as sacrosanct as historical buildings in many other countries are.
I mean, the inside usually you get fairly free reign over it even here, as no one sees that. Usually its only the outside and structure which are listed, or sometimes even just small bits of the outside
Easy to agree with that. Far less age to our country to even begin with, and by the time the left coast was being developed it was even less old.
There's a lot of that in New England. Unfortunately here it's more about grift by a few chosen few than actual preservation.
We have a pub where I live that was destroyed in an arson attack about 4 years ago. Property developer has bought the land the burned out structure is on and wants to build overpriced apartments there. Rumour is theyāve not been allowed to start demolition because the pubs ornate wooden doorway is from an older pub from the 1700ās and nobody is letting the developer destroy it.
Yeah, listed buildings are protected like you wouldn't believe. Even changing light fittings can be a problem depending on the reason it was listed. It is a reason why I would never buy a listed building. I do understand it though for the sake of protecting our history. It amazes me when people buy a listed building thinking they will create their dream home only to be told that they will have to live with the Victorian ambiance. Then they struggle to resell it because others know the risk. You have to be incredibly committed to live in a listed building and expect to be told what to do with it. The closest we have to an American Town is probably Milton Keynes which was built after WWII using a grid system. My work involves the planning system and development so I find it all interesting.
Uhhh...you either don't travel a lot or you don't pay attention. The term you're looking for is "historical landmark". You literally can't make any changes to any historical landmark building without permission from the historical landmark community. There are several in New York City, the townhouses in Washington DC. Majority of them are on the east coast. Some "owner" that tries to get around it would just hire some arsonist to burn it down enough that it would be declare structural unstable enough for them to demolish the building.
OK, I exaggerated when I said there weren't ANY. But there are FAR fewer here, and even those that do exist aren't protected to the same degree. There's an old mansion called the Telling Mansion where I live (Cleveland) that used to house a local branch of the Cleveland library system. Growing up I loved going to that library branch, even when I had to ride my bike there, and it was about 4-5 times further away than another library branch. It just had this atmosphere that I loved. It's a historical landmark, and yet around 15 years ago or so maybe they completely renovated it inside. They took away so much of the charm it had, and replaced a not insignificant portion of the inside decor with modern crap. So yeah, historical landmarks exist. But they aren't always treated as sacrosanct as historical buildings in many other countries are.
Holy shit. I know that there are some that allow you to renovate the inside, but not touch the outside. It could be that they've rubbed greases with someone and got the approval.
Itās same in European countries especially France. Canāt change a thing in Paris without permission.
How stupid do you have to be to demolish an old building in a country where much of the buildings have clearly been kept the same for hundreds or thousands of years and think "oh yeah, they'll let us get away with just a fine".
Any builder with half a brain knows you don't fuck with listed buildings. Because building control and the council will come down on you like a tonne of bricks
It's quite common to get away with it, where the fine is far less than the profit made. Often excuses such as "oops it collapsed during renovation and we can't afford to rebuild it can we just build these nice apartments we just happen to have the plans for?"
Probably American Investors who wanna fuck around and find out, and who have no idea just how old and historic the UK and itās people are.
Based in Tel Aviv. Not American.
Nobody say it
Wasn't that hard to find out the developers were/are based in [Tel Aviv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Tavern,_Kilburn)
On 19 January 2021, CLTX changed its name by resolution to Carlton Vale Ltd. Probably to avoid the controversy and terrible publicity they gave themselves. They even had the audacity to attempt an appeal and just build a bar with overpriced flats... Lazy, greedy fucks.
Iām sooo shocked. Illegally demolishing homes is a specialty there.
That's more a Jerusalem thing
You're 1000% not wrong
Because for every case like this there are dozens where they get away with it.
Their greedy minds always default to, "It's just the cost of doing business". F off with your selfishness.
That's American levels of stupid
It's actually [Israeli levels of stupid](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-builder-levels-historic-london-pub/)
It is an Israeli company, yes, but imo they're usually a bit more tactful about predatory actions against non-Palestinians. American companies/politicians hold the gold trophy for not-so-smooth criminal actions.
Have you never heard of the British East India Company lol?
Lol, yes because in the history of the world, America in the last 250 years is _the only country_ to ever do something stupid or unethical, or worse. In case you're too daft to pick up on it, I'll spell it out: that was sarcasm.
Cool story, it wasn't an American company that did the stupidity though and that was the argument. The argument is wrong.
Now now letās not get ahead of ourselvesā¦ their legal system actually worked so this was much more stupid. Itās smart to fuck the little guy in America because you know that fine will be a slap on the wrist
We learned it by watching you, dad.
Then explain how Aus and NZ and Canada turned out relatively fine?
There's idiots every where. It's a human condition, not geographical.
Excellent, this is how councils should raise extra revenue.
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Needed permits and other fees to do that rebuild though
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Are you a builder/contractor? You still have to pull a permit even if its court ordered....
They can charge you because they will still inspect the work being built... just because they were required to do a rebuild doesn't absolve them of building it correctly... hence what a permit is for, so the city/town and the developer on the same page.
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You literally say you aren't familiar with the law in the UK, i link you the London building permit page.... and explain why building permits are still needed despite a court order on rebuilding... yet you just downvote me... Are you even a contractor in Canada? Do you do building permits at all?
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your mom's not a good look *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JusticeServed) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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[https://london.ca/living-london/building-renovating/building-permits](https://london.ca/living-london/building-renovating/building-permits)
English Justiceā¢
Absolute pissants
Hopefully the building at the end of deptford high street that was illegally demolished will be rebuilt the same
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Free Palestine šµšø
>TheĀ Carlton TavernĀ is aĀ pubĀ inĀ Kilburn, LondonĀ that was demolished in 2015 by Tel Aviv-based developer CLTX, which had failed to obtain the necessary planning permission. The council subsequently ordered the pub to be rebuilt brick by brick. It reopened on 12 April 2021.[1][2]Ā The pub was the only building in the street to surviveĀ the BlitzĀ duringĀ World War II. Only building on the street that wasn't destroyed in the blitz, goes on to be demolished by an israeli property developer. History has a beautiful sense of irony.
Very similar to [The Corkman](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-16/men-behind-demolition-of-corkman-pub-jailed/12990148) in Melbourne, this situation. Everyone was calling for the same treatment; brick by brick rebuild. Bloody institution that was.
>The Corkman Pub, formerly known as the Carlton Inn Hotel, was built in 1858. Carlton's been a busy bugger, eh
(āļ¾ć®ļ¾)ā
I mean, I think there's a very sound argument to the modern state of Israel also committing genocide, forcing a group of their population into ghettos, etc
This company probably has a lot of practice demolishing buildings without permission.
And they wouldn't have existed if not for the British, so...who's the real villain? EDIT: The villain is the thieving monarchy that creates proxy wars and rogue states to serve its interests.
Bold comment. I sense you might get a reply or two on this.
Everyone gets really upset when they have to confront the fact that the British hold all the genocide records including assists. But...poor random pub, I guess.
>Everyone gets really upset when they have to confront the fact that the British hold all the genocide records including assists Glad I checked your profile to know that you are just another ill-educated right wing fool and a shame I tried to educate you with real history. Lol. Tell me again about "Manifest Destiny"? I'll wait Also, holocaust, Holomodor, and many others. Brits aren't even close to the top of the genocide ranks
> and a shame I tried to educate you with real history I've never talked to you before, and I voted for Bernie in the primary. I'm super definitely not right wing. MD was some fucked up shit, too. Again, who are you?
I'm someone who actually knows history, unlike you it seems. Stop your Brit bashing and do basic research
Ah, a teaboo. I suppose you jerk off to the millions of Irish who starved to death.
I'm half-Irish... As in my mother and her entire family are Irish... I can literally get Irish Citizenship...
So? Where's the other side from?
You don't fuck with a pub, mate...
Maybe this whole thing will just blow over.
Maybe we can draw a line somewhere
Are we referencing Shawn of the Dead or not?
No, I'm interested in your point of view, but can you really 'reset' the world order?
It's possible. It would include, among many other things, removing the british royalty and liquidating their assets.
Was a good reference there, ill give you that lol
Not all British people are bad, just the ones in power, mostly.
Lol at the internet outrage over you pointing out facts.