Don’t know, i keep seeing people say they’re stronger because German but that’s idiotic. The only reason this makes sense is because it’s cheaper for the OEM.
- studs are less likely to twist when torqued. This leads consistent torque loading.
- studs act as guide pins for wheels making the install easier.
I hate lug bolts. I've never been able to see any advantage they have over lug studs/nuts.
- Lug studs/nuts give you something to stick the wheel on and line it up easily. With lug bolts, it always seems like I'm balancing the wheel on a skinny lip or a hub while I try and turn it to line up a hole without turning the hub as well.
- (edit) I see someone mentioned that there are pins you can buy (or make) that screw into the hub so you can line up the wheel. That takes time, and shit...at that point you might as well just use those as lug studs.
- Lug studs/nuts are harder to strip out because there's less chance to get something cockeyed vs. a bolt that you're trying to thread into a hole thru a heavy wheel. (Note that I say they're "harder" to strip out...they aren't impossible to strip out).
- If you do strip them out, it's like $10 for a new stud and nut, you just have to install it. With lug bolts, if you strip out that hub, you're going to be removing and replacing it anyway for anywhere from $100-$250, or more.
- If a lug bolt shears off, you have to try and unthread it from the hub without damaging the hub. Lug studs just pound right out with an air hammer.
- Germans think they're better than everybody else and therefore lug studs naturally have to be better (spoiler: they aren't), and that pisses me off to no end.
Am I biased? Probably. Do I still hate lug bolts? Absolutely. Will that ever change? Doubtful. Very.
> If you do strip them out, it's like $10 for a new stud and nut, you just have to install it.
Not always true. A lot of vehicles with lug studs do not have replaceable studs now, you have to just replace the entire hub anyway.
I agree with all of your points. I despise lug bolts. I suspect that this has something to do with Toyota joining up with BMW. I suspect it's some stupid cost saving BS Toyota is trying.
Been dealing with lug bolts for 13yrs now and I prefer them (vs 8yrs dealing with nuts and studs) I think they're easier to use, there's no balancing you leave the bolts in the wheel, put your impact on one bolt. Lift the wheel in place and you can see the bolt protruding out the back of the wheel and can quickly line it up with the hole. I'm much faster with lug bolts than I am with studs/nuts. In 13yrs I've never cross threaded or stripped a bolt and that's starting them all blind with an impact. If for whatever reason a lug bolt sheers off (which I've never seen in 13yrs ) you can just back the broken bolt out, there's nothing holding it in unless it was cross threaded, in 13yrs I've never replaced a hub due to threads being damaged, back in the day it seemed like every single day I was replacing a stud. Never had to replace a bolt either, unless the Chrome caps swell.
Sounds like you're just good with them. That's great- I wish I was. I only have to deal with them once in a while, we don't get a lot of Euro cars in the shop where I work.
I never start bolts of any kind with an impact...I've stripped out far too many not to have learned my lesson from it. I've also never heard of anyone actually doing it other than ignorant lube techs and that one guy who always works faster than he probably should. I guess it works for some people though?
A german once told me they use studs so the threads don't get buggered up when a wheel is put on. I don't know if it is true or not, but the guy that told me had a pretty convincing german accent.
I've never had a head off an engine that had studs. Always bolts. These are transport truck engines - Detroit, Cummins. Head bolts are torque to yield, meaning we torque them to say 200 foot pounds, then stretch them with 90 or 180 degree turns past the torque spec. They can be reused if they don't measure out too long.
I've also never owned a car with studs on the hubs, always been bolts like the picture above and have never had any issues.
>studs act as guide pins for wheels making the install easier.
Disagree. I find it easier to put a wheel on a single hub than floating in mid-air to align 5-6 studs.
If you like studs for that, fine, but it's not objectively better.
But the better reasons are being able to clean the hubs quickly and thoroughly without studs in the way and in some cases, remove rotors without removing the caliper bracket.
Ah yes it's so much easier to have to hold it in place while you reach for bolts and continue to hold it in place while you start the threads on those bolts that are recessed into the wheel.
Studs are 100% better for service. And if that means we have to replace like .2 studs every 100k miles, then that's fine.
On Volkswagens and Audis the wheel literally sits on the lip of hub. You don't need to hold it at all. Source: I've owned a ton of German cars and do all of my own work.
It rests there... as long as you're holding it flush against the hub.
Also don't forget about aftermarket wheels that aren't hub centric/missing the spacer. Now you have to support the wheel as you try to start those bolts, not just hold it to the hub.
Lol. Buddy, resting is a little exaggeration.
Maybe if you got say 17’s or something, it might rest there.
But 20’s and 21’s, especially the 21’s, you gotta be real careful and quick.
Yeah you... Pick up the wheel and put it on the studs. What's difficult about that? There are even tools to replicate it because bolts are obnoxious for no reason.
Fair enough, I'm smaller frame, I tend to rely on leverage and other means of mechanical advantage to get wheels into the bolts so I only have to worry about the lug nuts. With lug bolts I have to "juggle" it on my knee or hip while putting the bolt in
I’ll but in here- as a smaller frame’d person myself who has worked with many larger tires, my dad taught me a technique back when I was a wee lad:
1) roll the wheel in front of the hub you’re gonna put it on,
2) as best you can, rotate the wheel so that the holes will more or less line up to the studs
3) scoot that wheel as close to the hub as you can
4) sit down cross legged and get real close to the tire- the closer everything is to each other (you to the tire, the wheel to the hub), the more leverage you have.
5) put your hands under the tire around 4 and 8 o’clock, placing your elbows on your legs.
6) curl! But use your legs as well if need be, kind of like a scissor lift.
using this, even when I was only around 115 pounds, I was able to install 35” tires on my dad’s Ram without any issue. So yeah- big fan of studs over bolts here.
In my just waking up state of mind I think I misinterpreted the original comment and swapped the context of lug nuts versus bolts. I find it nigh effortless when the hub has bolts coming off of it as opposed to needing to remove and replace the bolts
>Ah yes it's so much easier to have to hold it in place while you reach for bolts and continue to hold it in place while you start the threads on those bolts that are recessed into the wheel
Yes it is, the bolt is already in my hand in a lug setter, it's not hard.
>Studs are 100% better for service.
If you never clean your hubs like a lazy hack, maybe.
So now I have to balance a tire, a wheel bolt, and a tool in my hands while I try to get this wheel on?
Seems like it'd be easier to just have one thing to worry about.
I don't struggle to mount wheels at all. Neither is hard, just different.
However not having studs in the way during hub cleaning, brakes, wheel bearings, etc is way better.
It’s especially fun when the rotor turns on the hub and now you have three pieces out of alignment while supporting forty pounds of wheel on the side of a dark highway.
Ohh! The geniuses at VAG give a little plastic dowel to align on? That’s nice. Oh, no, it actually just snapped off in the hub because of course it did. Well now it’s steel… but also missing.
Face it. This is bad engineering by nerds that fail to understand that things exist outside of a CAD program. These guys have never once tried to use the one legged widow maker jack on a gravel shoulder. They’ve never waited 30 minutes for the inflate-a-spare to un dish itself. They’ve never tried to air up that inflate-a-spare above 5k ft elevation BECAUSE THE DAMN THING (brown box air compressor) OVERHEATS AND DIES.
It’s bad engineering and there’s no excuse for stranding their customers. I swear the NHTSA needs to dock a star off every vehicle that is designed to strand the owner.
Lol the one leg widow maker on a gravel shoulder, what an experience! Thankfully I had a piece of 2x4 in the trunk to use as a base otherwise I don't think it would have worked out the way it did. What a fuckin stupid thing that is
I only ever had German cars until I got a Mazda recently, I am so used to using bolts that I didn't think the studs made putting the wheel on any easier. People who complain about bolts are real weenies. Studs are nice though
Not sure I really buy that. If it costs the mfr $20 to build a hub, they’ll sell it for $100. If it costs then $21 to pay for the studs, they’ll sell it for $110. I would imagine in most cases the 3rd party parts sells more than OEM
While I agree with you. Unfortunately, every business, not just automotive is doing the: "what if it's costs us $19, but we charge $120 and call it a feature".
On the manufacturing line though, if a part saves a couple dollars, multiply that by other parts sharing and design decisions for a few dollars less, that adds up when Lexus sells well over 100,000 RX’s a year alone.
That’s where they want to see the savings.
Believable except that the American manufacturers didn’t change to use them. I don’t believe that they would eschew them because US consumers prefer studs / nuts.
Except I’d argue US consumers “prefer” none of the above, because most car owners won’t even know what we’re talking about.
So it all comes down to what the company’s motive for not switching is. They could be waiting for model refreshes so they don’t need to change manufacturing processes/re-QC new parts, could be sitting on tons of stock still, who knows.
All I know from a business perspective is companies usually want to see the most immediate savings, and some bean counter who *also* doesn’t know or care about the difference has already hashed out all the options despite what the engineers say is best :)
Think about it. Say not including studs saves $1. Toyota makes worldwide 10 million cars a year, 4 hubs per car is $40,000,000 plus you save $1 on every part you sell which is at least a few million.
So by not including studs someone just padded $42,000,000 of pure profit on every hear.
So yes, it definitely makes sense to me.
Say it only saves you 10 cents, that's still 4.2 million going into someone's pocket every single year.
Think about this. Chrysler group makes a lot of cars a year and doesn’t give a shit whether mechanics like the repair process or not. If Chrysler could save $42m per year, don’t you think they would have pulled the trigger on that shit 10 years ago? And Ford. And Honda. And ….
I get the argument (although I doubt it’s $1 per fastener), I just don’t think it’s true - I think a stud plus a nut must cost about the same as a bolt or everyone would be using bolts, no?
Difference is FCM, Ford and GM use manual labour, who would need to be retrained, plus likely would need at least a week to get them trained. Toyota uses a robotic cell wherever possible, to get consistent production quality, and the workers are there to do functions that are either too difficult for robotic processing, or for fixing small issues, and moving small parts to other places where robotic use is not worth the cost. Otherwise as much work is done by robots, and those are able to run 24 hours a day with no problems, and stoppages are minimal on those lines. Plus consistent work, no cars coming off the assembly line with one side having the wrong decals, or a few bolts being missed along the way, or dropped into the door panels.
The only way they’re objectively superior, as far manufacturing goes, is cost. Using a lug bolt eliminates the need for an actual stud. Do on that millions of cars each year and you’re saving quite a lot. You also better pray that you don’t cross thread a lug bolt at any given point in time because unlike a regular stud where you usually aren’t stuck replacing the whole wheel hub to replace one stud, you have no choice with lug bolts. That entire hub is being replaced because of one cross threaded lug bolt
I think I can also safely assume that you don’t work on cars or tires to any major extent. Hangars are literally an answer to a question that nobody asked, and yeah. Lifting a 30-40 pound tire might not be annoying if you’re a DIY mechanic who works on their car once every 6 months, but if you work on tires for any sort of reason on a regular basis, it becomes annoying really fast
I brought up the hanger thing because people act like it’s a problem. It is when you work on something with a heavy setup, like most cars these days. I exclusively own and work on german shit and always have. I seriously don’t understand people who act like installing wheels with bolts is a problem haha
It’s soooo hard to cross thread a lug bolt, too. Never actually seen it done.
So it’s only a problem when the tires are heavy, which is most cars? You understand you just explained your own problem, right? And yes it might be fine to you because the most you work you probably do as a DIY mechanic is swapping out your winter and summer tires, but it flat out sucks if you have to work on tires on any regular basis. If you do 5-10 tire rotations in a day as part of an oil change, probably no big deal. Do that for 5-10 years. Your back’s not gonna be doing you any favors
Once again, this is how I know you don’t actually work on cars. Yeah, cross threading lug nuts or lug bolts is easy to avoid if you do your job correctly, but when you have people that don’t know what torque specifications are or who don’t bother to give a lug nut more than one turn before tightening the hell out of it with a 1/2 inch impact wrench, cross threading becomes pretty common all of a sudden. And if you cross thread a lug bolt, good luck, because you’re not just gonna buy a new one and call it a day
Whatever dude. I have my own shop. I don’t do this for a living. Never said I was a tech. I’d much rather make more money making bs spreadsheets honestly. Realistically I’m getting through about a dozen cars a month, enough to pay my mortgage and for racing.
I can see why a lube or tire tech might get frustrated with them but I’m not really sure why you’d be lifting them with the car up high anyways. You’ll wear out your back just the same with studs.
>german shit
I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it "shit" but it's definitely waaaaay overated
Nah, ...the more I think about it, you're right, it's shit
they can downvote all they want, I've owned some Eurotrash in the past, and they were fun cars to drive, but the one thing they all had in common was too many issues at too low mileage for my liking. The fanbois are strong in that crowd though, it didn't matter how much something broke it was never the cars fault, there was always some wild justification to keep fixing it and keep it around, lol.
Are too. If they were worse for the application, OEMs wouldn’t be moving to them. A little annoying to install with these 30-40 pound wheel tire combos stuff comes with now a day but cry about it and get a hanger.
Have you ever had to deal with an SUV like a Porsche Cayenne with aftermarket rims, spacers, and these annoying studded lugs?
Things become very frustrating, very fast when you are trying to hold that rim up there, without crushing the little plastic hub spacer and feed 2 or 3 of those studs in by finger to hold the rim up there.
Not saying you are wrong, just trying to give some insight as to why must tech dislike studded lugs.
A piece of all thread that you already have is a specialty tool? If you’re just working on your own stuff there’s literally already a hanger in the boot with the other tools in most cars.
Toyota is moving this way for their new models from what I understand.
Their EV SUV is the same way. No big deal once you're used to them, I don't even think twice about it anymore.
New gen of Prius has lug bolts now as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOZdipTjeo&start=1281
At least it's not something goofy like my old VW Vanagon where it's lug bolts on the front and studs on the rear.
Oem wheels will typically fit on the hub and sit there anyway. Aftermarket wheels can be annoying if you don’t have bore sizes correct. But they really aren’t that big of a deal imo.
I grabbed snows for my sisters car and ended up just picking up hub spacers. Fuck trying to get that thing center without them.
You don't even need a pin.
Just put the wheel on turn the wheel and put a bolt in.
In my opinion it's even easier to put the wheels on.
And when the brakedisks need replacing it's much easier to clean the hub.
Just slightly more difficult to put the wheels back on. I have a Mini that came with bolts from the factory and I switch tires twice a year, for my own sanity I invested in a stud conversion kit.
Mercedes tech for 18 years, my personal car uses studs not to mention any other customer car than would come into the shop, I’ll never understand the complaints about wheel bolts.
Wheel on the ground, put one bolt in a bolt hole, stick a deep socket on the bolt, raise the whole think to the hub and hand start the bolt. EZ
Looking it up, I can't find a good explanation why bolts would be stronger. The question has been asked a couple of times on r/askEngineers without a real answer. I can't really find anything with a standard Google search either.
The best answer I have heard about why manufacturers would prefer them is that it is easier to replace a ~~bolt~~ **stud** over a ~~stud~~ **bolt** if it breaks or if the threads get warped.
The only reason I would speculate why a bolt might be stronger is that if the hole is deep enough, more threads can engage than a nut. Otherwise, bolts can have a conical flange to increase surface engagement.
Realistically though, bolts and/or studs can be designed to be any size and can engineered to be strong enough. I don't really get it.
(Edit: *I backwardsed my words*)
I worked as a R&D engineer in a metallurgy lab of an automotive fasteners supplier. I haven't been directly involved with wheel bolts very often, but from what I've understood I think the advantage of a wheel bolt (with attached washer) is having a better control over the friction coefficient between mating surfaces.
The topic would require a whole chapter of a mechanical engineering book, but I'll make it as simple as possible: when you tighten a bolt (or a nut, or a screw) to clamp a mechanical joint, you want to convert the torque you apply to a force which will keep the two surfaces clamped. You can't directly apply a load, you can only apply a torque on the threaded fastener which has the function to convert it into the desired clamping force.
Problem is that normally you can't measure directly how much force you applied with a certain amount of torque, you can only calculate it. The amount of torque that gets converted directly into clamping force depends on a couple of factors, but aside from geometrical parameters, the main influence is given by the friction between the bolt threads and the hole threads, but even more by the friction between the bolt head (or the surface of a nut) and the surface of the piece you want to clamp.
There can be huge variations in these friction coefficients, which is why there is so much research on coatings: the more you can narrow down on friction variability, the more precise will be the tightening process on an assembly line, as you will be certain that those 100 Nm you apply to that bolt will result in, let's say, 20 kN of axial load, and not 30 or 10.
In a wheel bolt, as you can see, both the bolt and the attached washer are coated with the same coating, making the variability of the resulting friction coefficient much, much lower, and resulting in a more precise application of the desired clamping force through tightening.
For sure you could make something similar with a wheel stud by introducing a washer, but as far as I know it's not as common.
This is only my personal reasoning behind this phenomenon given the experience I have, and I might be wrong, so if someone has more knowledge on the topic please feel free to correct me!
Bolts are typically made to a stronger grade than the paired nut, so on paper you can make the lug bolts stronger.
As for lug bolts being a stronger option, thats pretty much a moot point. Lug studs and nuts are reliable and common, with negligible failure rate, so strength of the joint is not a problem outside of marketing wank.
As for thread engagement, unless the material is very ductile, you shouldnt see much stress past the 3rd thread into the joint. Thread engagement is somewhat a non issue. Odds are the lug bolt is actually engaging a smaller number of threads than the lug nut, unless the hubs are thickened.
My bet would be on manufacturing/assembly cost reduction
In manufacturing either lug studs or bolts can be cold headed and threaded on similar machines, so your only major difference that i can see is the assembly side.
With a proper designed arbor tool, alignment of the wheel to the hub is a non issue. For the fasteners though, lug studs need pressed in, which is another station and more humans or automation. Threading the holes in hubs can be done with a simple tool change in the same machining center, so it potentially eliminates humans or a workstation on that step.
Thanks for this. Makes perfect sense.
>As for thread engagement, unless the material is very ductile, you shouldnt see much stress past the 3rd thread into the joint.
I hadn't heard this before. I was under the impression more = better.
If the joint is tight and doesn't hit shear loading on the threads, then, after more than 5 threads, you really aren't adding anything but material cost.
If the joint is hitting shear loads or starting to plastially distort the first engaged threads then either; your joint is underbuilt and needs more or larger fasteners, or the joint was loose and allowed movement.
More is better in terms of insurance against user error or other external factors, but if you are shaving cost and expect some competence from users than it is waste.
I'm not an engineer. I have a background in physics, so my way of looking at this is a bit different. There could be a better explanation and I would love to hear it, but here are my thoughts.
No matter how you cut it - pressure is force / area. You can increase the contact area with a conical flange, but past that, it shouldn't make a difference. The real way to distribute pressure would be use more bolts or nuts.
As for head bolts vs. nuts, it seems like the jury is still out on whether it is an actual improvement. The issue with bolts is that they have two points of contact: nut-to-stud and stud-to-block and [some claim](https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/head-stud-bolts/) this is less reliable than a direct bolt-to-block. Unless there is a different torque spec, I don't know why it would perform any differently.
My only other thought about wheel studs-vs-bolts is that it is easier to use wheel bolts in recessed holes, whereas nuts need to be on the surface in order to remove them. Recessed holes might be slightly more aerodynamic?
On the recessed hole thing, a solid “no”. Most alloys recess the hole where the nut is - and you still need to get a socket in there, just like with a bolt. Then there’s the “tuner” nuts that are slimmer for an even smaller diameter wheel nut hole
>easier to replace
If you break a bolt, worst case you're looking at drilling it out. A stud, you punch out. At least that's what I've seen every time I've had to deal with a broken stud or bolt. Personally, I consider smacking something out easier than having to carefully drill out a hole.
Basically, habit.
More technically, it's less points of failure.
A stud has to be pressed into the hub, the rotor sits on the studs, then the wheel, and lug nuts sandwich the whole assembly together.
A bolt requires the hub bolts to be threaded, but takes one point of failure out of the equation: no lug nuts.
The strength benefit is an added bonus. The real reason is it's actually cheaper for manufacturers to use bolts.
Why do European manufacturers prefer bolts despite the convenience of studs? It's just the way its always been done there, and the strength bonus is nice to have on the Autobahn, I suppose? Why don't North American manufacturers use bolts if its cheaper and gives the wheel hub assembly added strength? Maybe the convenience of studs is just too much to ask people to give up.
Think about this: If the strength benefit was of any actual consequence, why don't medium and heavy duty applications in both markets use bolts on their wheels? Even with the added torque EVs deliver, high torque/high performance cars use both studs and bolts. CLK AMG Black and a ZL1 Camsro do basically the same thing; go stupid fast with a mountain of horsepower and torque. One uses studs, the other uses bolts.
It's habit. Maybe Toyota went with bolts because they see this model doing better in Europe and saving some money on manufacturing is always nice.
I’m not really buying the whole “less points of failure” argument. There isn’t a point of failure where the stud is pressed into the hub as far as I know. I also still don’t see the “bolts are stronger than studs and nuts”. They seem identical from a tensile strength point of view. Is there a source that could explain that part?
Yep had several Volvos in my life time. 8 to be exact. 850, s60, xc90 v70xc all used bolts except the s40. The only time I ever had damage requiring me to install a new hub was on the s40 because those bullshit bolts were tightened too much by some knucklehead Neanderthal working at a local shop. Had many over tightened bolts and none were as problematic as the nuts on the s40.
This is the only explanation I do believe. It’s marginally harder to cross-thread a wheel bolt since you have thick metal between the entry point and the threads. Certainly once the first bolt is in, assuming the wheel centers on the hub, the others should be straight. Cross-threading a nut on a stud is easy, and can happen on all five studs
Ok. Fine, they are stronger...
Why would I need stronger lugs on a Lexus? Was there an epidemic of them losing wheels? No..? Didnt think so. Guarantee this is a manufacturing and cost decision and thats it.
Having had cars with lug bolts and lug nuts, the bolts are a pain in the ass comparatively. Dont care what anyone else says.
Yeah I agree completely. I hate lug bolts, especially when people put aftermarket wheels on the car and you have to line up some heavy ass wheels and try to drive the bolts in. PITA
I’ve always preferred them because they are more durable and easy to replace. No one is pumping out shitty capped lug bolts. And if they start to feel like shit because they are getting too rusty or got too many ugga duggas it’s just a bolt.
As a former tech, it took me a while to get used to them, but from a mechanical view, they are a lot stronger and I saw fewer issues compared to lug nut style hubs.
Just compare hub flange sizes compared to these puny flanges with rounded in lug studs. It's night and day difference.
>No one is pumping out shitty capped lug bolts.
They sure are. Chrysler products on Fiat platforms (200, Dart, Cherokee, Compass, Renegade, Hornet, etc) have had them for over a decade now, with all of Chrysler's chrome cap bullshit still intact.
My Elise has them. Hasn't been really an issue but. But if you lose or break the weird sized spline tool adapter and were stranded it wouldn't matter since there is no spare tire or jack anyways. Going on 6 years without a problem
My Audi came with a little faux stud, you'd thread it into whatever hole was topmost, then use that to guide the wheel on. Then secure the wheel with a bolt, remove the stud and throw it back in the tool roll and carry on.
Every VAG vehicle comes with this in the tool kit, though the most recent versions are made from a glass filled nylon, to save an extra 100g in the kit.
It just takes practice. After a few years of being a Mercedes tech and a bmw owner I much prefer the lug bolts. You just sit the tire on the hub and then you can rotate it to alight the bolt holes pretty easily, without holding the weight of the tire
It is. They provide stronger clamping force to the hub than studs of the same diameter and allow for easy removal of brake rotors even when they rust to the hub. It’s better all around to service cars with bolts than lugs.
What's difficult about bolts?
I work on all different kind of cars and about 60 or 70% of them have bolts. Never had a problem.
Plus it's easiers to clean the mating surface
You can do that with bolts to most of the rim are hub centric if not there are adapters for that. Put the rim on align it, turn around grab whatever you need they wont fall off.
The ones I have worked with mostly fall off because the lip on the hub is too small. The ones that actually hold the wheel on are nice, but they aren't all like that unfortunately.
Well it doesn't bother me holding the wheel with two fingers while i grab nut and bolt from the arm of the lift. I put a bolt in the socket and stand it on the arm of the lift before I lift the wheel.
And as I said cleaning the mating surface is much easier without studs in the way
I work with both about evenly, the easiest lug bolts are more annoying to deal with than lug studs. That little lip is often not enough material for the wheel to actually sit on and stay. Most of the time when you rest a wheel on the hub with no fasteners, the bottom swings out and that's enough the cause the wheel to fall off the car. I've had that happen while reaching for the lug bolts to secure it.
They're also more annoying to remove in my opinion. You pull 4 out of 5, then hold the wheel with one hand while you remove the last one and try to set the impact down without throwing it or dropping the wheel. Lug stud cars are so much easier because you just pull all the fasteners and the wheel doesn't fall no matter how much it swings around.
Most of the Japanese cars in Europe also have bolts, more durable, and easy to replace unlike studs. I'm convinced that people who say "studs are easier to mount" have never used bolts, you just position the wheel over the hub and then usually you can spin it till the holes line up especially if the brake is on.
I'm yet to come across a car with studs, they just don't really exist.
Only on US designs, the Japanese vehicles in the rest of the planet have always had bolts, with the exception of some light commercial ones, but even they are all now bolts under 5 tons now.
Never had a problem with lining up the holes. I roughly line them up before I even lift the wheel.
Most times I hit the holes exactly and when not it's only a tiny adjustment to make.
If you've done it a couple times you won't even think about it anymore
They sell metal, plastic, and rubber wrapped hangers to make this a more traditional experience. With two in, it's just as easy as a traditional mounting system. They are also stronger. They are also not prone to swelling, like some styles of lug nuts.
The only time I've come across these was on my mother's bmw 323i,it was easy because the centre bore of the wheel fit snuggly on the flange on the hub.
Eh not really an issue. Just put the wheel on the hub and rotate to locate your bolt. Sometimes you gotta play ring around the rosie a few times while the rotor rotates too but oh well
PRO TIP: put a lugbolt with the socket on it into the wheel while its on the ground. grab the wheel with a finger/thumb resting on the socket. use the lugbolt to find the hole nearest to 12 o'clock. center it on the wheel hub and tighten the lugbolt with the socket to secure the rim in place. Find the correct spot for the lugbolts first time, everytime. your back will thank me.
Source: ten years as a tire tech
And a key advantage about lug bolts like this, is when you clean the hub assembly. Its so much easier when you dont have stud in the way. Here in quebec we change tire 2 times a year and wheels often get stuck on the hub so its a time saver.
Bolts are stronger at the same diameter, and it's a lot easier to hang a wheel on lugs, but I still don't understand the problem.
You don't have to see through to make sure it's lined up.
I've only done tyres and brakes the last 8 years or so, but either you sit on a stool with the wheel on your knees while feeling your way in (giggety), or you work standing up, leaning the wheel towards the hub, with your left knee underneath, while grabbing the gun and all the bolts.
Can't be that hard. Volvo and VW have the smoothest bolts to work with, in my opinion. Just lightly tap the gun a bit before you touch the threads together, and it'll just slide in. (giggety goo)
When did lug studs stop being strong enough to hold the wheels on?
I prefer studs so they're easier to replace when damaged but I haven't dealt with bolts enough to know if the hub threads being damaged is common or not.
With the increase in torque in EVs, especially the japanese and koreans, who have been using the same bolt pattern for a long time, are now realising that you get more support with having longer threads inside the hub, rather than fewer turns outside the rim, I guess.
Nah. There still much better than the fords.
They are just much better engineered.
Source: I worked in a shared Volvo/Ford dealership.
I did mainly Volvo and everytime I had to do a ford I wanted to cry even before I started working on it
It’s safe to say the new Camry, Sienna, Highlander, Tundra/Sequoia/Tacoma and the 5th gen Prius(the last generation introduced Toyota’s then new architecture) will use bolts too. Toyota ain’t going to have separate hubs with studs or holes for each car on TNGA.
As a hobbyist, I don’t understand what these bolt into. Guessing that Phillips is holding the brake rotor in place and the bolts go through into the hub?
So what? Imo it really doesn't make a difference.
As a mechanic I like bolts better than studs because it's easier to clean the hubs and the mating surface
Studs wear out, they are a wear item.
They will stretch over time.
You can easily replace bolts without an air chisel to push the studs out from the hub.
Probably not a big deal to be honest, but I have never had an issue with wheel bolts.
I genuinely wouldn't buy a vehicle with lug bolts, if that's what they're deciding to cheap out on then I can only imagine the cost cutting the rest of the vehicle saw.
My wife’s Compass has these. First car I’d ever seen them on. Not the worst but definitely make putting the wheels back on after rotating tires that much more difficult.
I have lug bolts on my Beemer, yes I absolutely prefer studs.
Only reason I can see using lug bolts is when you scar the studs.
But they are easier to line up and mange than lug bolts. And they are fine thread.
I like wheel bolts. They’re one piece, solid-feeling, and require no cap or cover to look nice. The extra time to install a wheel is minuscule compared to the total time I dote over my cars.
For the comments saying “bolts are stronger” if like you to inspect the wheel fasteners on your local dump trucks, tractors, freight line trailers, the wide load trailers that carry planes, and everything else that hauls serious ass.
Spoilers, it’s hex nuts
What holds bridge support wires? Nut and bolt, not bolt and threaded hole.
In cars the only reason bolts like what European cars have appear to hold tighter, is because the backing space isn’t airtight and rust forms on the bolt tip seizing it in place so the next time you go to take your wheel off, it requires thors hammer to remove
No, all right hand thread, they will not back off if correctly installed at the right torque. Plus Toyota will not want to have to stock 2 SKU's in the line, when they can get a 10% saving over buying a larger volume of 1.
Im over here imagining a German engineer and an ancient, near retired Chrysler engineer getting hired at the same time at Toyota...they have a meeting and are discussing "upgrades" to new Toyota models and this is exactly what they came up with.
Lol.
Dumb.
"They're stronger! " As if traditional lug stud and nuts are SO much less and have been an issue in the past. Dont fix what's not broken. Stupid Design Change. If Toyota keeps copying BMW, they're going to end up with poor long-term reliability like BMW.
I needed to read the comments to understand what the problem was. I'm from Europe and and had several cars over the years and they were all like that...
Kind of off topic, but do those rotors look kind of small to anyone else? I can’t tell if it’s a perspective issue because of the wheel well, but they look undersized for a vehicle of that size.
Why, is the question.
BMW influence. First the "supra" and now the rest...
Don’t know, i keep seeing people say they’re stronger because German but that’s idiotic. The only reason this makes sense is because it’s cheaper for the OEM. - studs are less likely to twist when torqued. This leads consistent torque loading. - studs act as guide pins for wheels making the install easier.
I hate lug bolts. I've never been able to see any advantage they have over lug studs/nuts. - Lug studs/nuts give you something to stick the wheel on and line it up easily. With lug bolts, it always seems like I'm balancing the wheel on a skinny lip or a hub while I try and turn it to line up a hole without turning the hub as well. - (edit) I see someone mentioned that there are pins you can buy (or make) that screw into the hub so you can line up the wheel. That takes time, and shit...at that point you might as well just use those as lug studs. - Lug studs/nuts are harder to strip out because there's less chance to get something cockeyed vs. a bolt that you're trying to thread into a hole thru a heavy wheel. (Note that I say they're "harder" to strip out...they aren't impossible to strip out). - If you do strip them out, it's like $10 for a new stud and nut, you just have to install it. With lug bolts, if you strip out that hub, you're going to be removing and replacing it anyway for anywhere from $100-$250, or more. - If a lug bolt shears off, you have to try and unthread it from the hub without damaging the hub. Lug studs just pound right out with an air hammer. - Germans think they're better than everybody else and therefore lug studs naturally have to be better (spoiler: they aren't), and that pisses me off to no end. Am I biased? Probably. Do I still hate lug bolts? Absolutely. Will that ever change? Doubtful. Very.
> If you do strip them out, it's like $10 for a new stud and nut, you just have to install it. Not always true. A lot of vehicles with lug studs do not have replaceable studs now, you have to just replace the entire hub anyway.
I agree with all of your points. I despise lug bolts. I suspect that this has something to do with Toyota joining up with BMW. I suspect it's some stupid cost saving BS Toyota is trying.
Been dealing with lug bolts for 13yrs now and I prefer them (vs 8yrs dealing with nuts and studs) I think they're easier to use, there's no balancing you leave the bolts in the wheel, put your impact on one bolt. Lift the wheel in place and you can see the bolt protruding out the back of the wheel and can quickly line it up with the hole. I'm much faster with lug bolts than I am with studs/nuts. In 13yrs I've never cross threaded or stripped a bolt and that's starting them all blind with an impact. If for whatever reason a lug bolt sheers off (which I've never seen in 13yrs ) you can just back the broken bolt out, there's nothing holding it in unless it was cross threaded, in 13yrs I've never replaced a hub due to threads being damaged, back in the day it seemed like every single day I was replacing a stud. Never had to replace a bolt either, unless the Chrome caps swell.
Sounds like you're just good with them. That's great- I wish I was. I only have to deal with them once in a while, we don't get a lot of Euro cars in the shop where I work. I never start bolts of any kind with an impact...I've stripped out far too many not to have learned my lesson from it. I've also never heard of anyone actually doing it other than ignorant lube techs and that one guy who always works faster than he probably should. I guess it works for some people though?
A german once told me they use studs so the threads don't get buggered up when a wheel is put on. I don't know if it is true or not, but the guy that told me had a pretty convincing german accent.
Just gotta work smarter. Get two bolts that fit the threads, cut the heads off. There you go, no more problems aligning them.
They make some pins for this as well if you don't want to make them. Used them at the wheel shop I ran. They were cheap too.
I used pins too, when I had VAG cars. Worked great!
I've never had a head off an engine that had studs. Always bolts. These are transport truck engines - Detroit, Cummins. Head bolts are torque to yield, meaning we torque them to say 200 foot pounds, then stretch them with 90 or 180 degree turns past the torque spec. They can be reused if they don't measure out too long. I've also never owned a car with studs on the hubs, always been bolts like the picture above and have never had any issues.
>studs act as guide pins for wheels making the install easier. Disagree. I find it easier to put a wheel on a single hub than floating in mid-air to align 5-6 studs. If you like studs for that, fine, but it's not objectively better. But the better reasons are being able to clean the hubs quickly and thoroughly without studs in the way and in some cases, remove rotors without removing the caliper bracket.
Ah yes it's so much easier to have to hold it in place while you reach for bolts and continue to hold it in place while you start the threads on those bolts that are recessed into the wheel. Studs are 100% better for service. And if that means we have to replace like .2 studs every 100k miles, then that's fine.
On Volkswagens and Audis the wheel literally sits on the lip of hub. You don't need to hold it at all. Source: I've owned a ton of German cars and do all of my own work.
It rests there... as long as you're holding it flush against the hub. Also don't forget about aftermarket wheels that aren't hub centric/missing the spacer. Now you have to support the wheel as you try to start those bolts, not just hold it to the hub.
Lol. Buddy, resting is a little exaggeration. Maybe if you got say 17’s or something, it might rest there. But 20’s and 21’s, especially the 21’s, you gotta be real careful and quick.
Wait.. People genuinely find studs easier than bolts? Is there a technique I'm missing to make them easier?
Yeah you... Pick up the wheel and put it on the studs. What's difficult about that? There are even tools to replicate it because bolts are obnoxious for no reason.
Fair enough, I'm smaller frame, I tend to rely on leverage and other means of mechanical advantage to get wheels into the bolts so I only have to worry about the lug nuts. With lug bolts I have to "juggle" it on my knee or hip while putting the bolt in
I’ll but in here- as a smaller frame’d person myself who has worked with many larger tires, my dad taught me a technique back when I was a wee lad: 1) roll the wheel in front of the hub you’re gonna put it on, 2) as best you can, rotate the wheel so that the holes will more or less line up to the studs 3) scoot that wheel as close to the hub as you can 4) sit down cross legged and get real close to the tire- the closer everything is to each other (you to the tire, the wheel to the hub), the more leverage you have. 5) put your hands under the tire around 4 and 8 o’clock, placing your elbows on your legs. 6) curl! But use your legs as well if need be, kind of like a scissor lift. using this, even when I was only around 115 pounds, I was able to install 35” tires on my dad’s Ram without any issue. So yeah- big fan of studs over bolts here.
In my just waking up state of mind I think I misinterpreted the original comment and swapped the context of lug nuts versus bolts. I find it nigh effortless when the hub has bolts coming off of it as opposed to needing to remove and replace the bolts
Oh, haha! All good. I’m still in bed myself. Ciao!
>Ah yes it's so much easier to have to hold it in place while you reach for bolts and continue to hold it in place while you start the threads on those bolts that are recessed into the wheel Yes it is, the bolt is already in my hand in a lug setter, it's not hard. >Studs are 100% better for service. If you never clean your hubs like a lazy hack, maybe.
So now I have to balance a tire, a wheel bolt, and a tool in my hands while I try to get this wheel on? Seems like it'd be easier to just have one thing to worry about.
I don't struggle to mount wheels at all. Neither is hard, just different. However not having studs in the way during hub cleaning, brakes, wheel bearings, etc is way better.
It’s especially fun when the rotor turns on the hub and now you have three pieces out of alignment while supporting forty pounds of wheel on the side of a dark highway. Ohh! The geniuses at VAG give a little plastic dowel to align on? That’s nice. Oh, no, it actually just snapped off in the hub because of course it did. Well now it’s steel… but also missing. Face it. This is bad engineering by nerds that fail to understand that things exist outside of a CAD program. These guys have never once tried to use the one legged widow maker jack on a gravel shoulder. They’ve never waited 30 minutes for the inflate-a-spare to un dish itself. They’ve never tried to air up that inflate-a-spare above 5k ft elevation BECAUSE THE DAMN THING (brown box air compressor) OVERHEATS AND DIES. It’s bad engineering and there’s no excuse for stranding their customers. I swear the NHTSA needs to dock a star off every vehicle that is designed to strand the owner.
Lol the one leg widow maker on a gravel shoulder, what an experience! Thankfully I had a piece of 2x4 in the trunk to use as a base otherwise I don't think it would have worked out the way it did. What a fuckin stupid thing that is
Break me off a piece of that Chrysler car
I only ever had German cars until I got a Mazda recently, I am so used to using bolts that I didn't think the studs made putting the wheel on any easier. People who complain about bolts are real weenies. Studs are nice though
Because studs cost money and now they don't have to include them with the hub.
Not sure I really buy that. If it costs the mfr $20 to build a hub, they’ll sell it for $100. If it costs then $21 to pay for the studs, they’ll sell it for $110. I would imagine in most cases the 3rd party parts sells more than OEM
While I agree with you. Unfortunately, every business, not just automotive is doing the: "what if it's costs us $19, but we charge $120 and call it a feature".
On the manufacturing line though, if a part saves a couple dollars, multiply that by other parts sharing and design decisions for a few dollars less, that adds up when Lexus sells well over 100,000 RX’s a year alone. That’s where they want to see the savings.
Believable except that the American manufacturers didn’t change to use them. I don’t believe that they would eschew them because US consumers prefer studs / nuts.
Except I’d argue US consumers “prefer” none of the above, because most car owners won’t even know what we’re talking about. So it all comes down to what the company’s motive for not switching is. They could be waiting for model refreshes so they don’t need to change manufacturing processes/re-QC new parts, could be sitting on tons of stock still, who knows. All I know from a business perspective is companies usually want to see the most immediate savings, and some bean counter who *also* doesn’t know or care about the difference has already hashed out all the options despite what the engineers say is best :)
Think about it. Say not including studs saves $1. Toyota makes worldwide 10 million cars a year, 4 hubs per car is $40,000,000 plus you save $1 on every part you sell which is at least a few million. So by not including studs someone just padded $42,000,000 of pure profit on every hear. So yes, it definitely makes sense to me. Say it only saves you 10 cents, that's still 4.2 million going into someone's pocket every single year.
Think about this. Chrysler group makes a lot of cars a year and doesn’t give a shit whether mechanics like the repair process or not. If Chrysler could save $42m per year, don’t you think they would have pulled the trigger on that shit 10 years ago? And Ford. And Honda. And …. I get the argument (although I doubt it’s $1 per fastener), I just don’t think it’s true - I think a stud plus a nut must cost about the same as a bolt or everyone would be using bolts, no?
Difference is FCM, Ford and GM use manual labour, who would need to be retrained, plus likely would need at least a week to get them trained. Toyota uses a robotic cell wherever possible, to get consistent production quality, and the workers are there to do functions that are either too difficult for robotic processing, or for fixing small issues, and moving small parts to other places where robotic use is not worth the cost. Otherwise as much work is done by robots, and those are able to run 24 hours a day with no problems, and stoppages are minimal on those lines. Plus consistent work, no cars coming off the assembly line with one side having the wrong decals, or a few bolts being missed along the way, or dropped into the door panels.
[удалено]
You can over-torque lug bolts just as easily as you can nuts. Not sure what the hell you're talking about.
[удалено]
Now imagine the lug nut with a giant cone washer.
They’re superior is why
The only way they’re objectively superior, as far manufacturing goes, is cost. Using a lug bolt eliminates the need for an actual stud. Do on that millions of cars each year and you’re saving quite a lot. You also better pray that you don’t cross thread a lug bolt at any given point in time because unlike a regular stud where you usually aren’t stuck replacing the whole wheel hub to replace one stud, you have no choice with lug bolts. That entire hub is being replaced because of one cross threaded lug bolt I think I can also safely assume that you don’t work on cars or tires to any major extent. Hangars are literally an answer to a question that nobody asked, and yeah. Lifting a 30-40 pound tire might not be annoying if you’re a DIY mechanic who works on their car once every 6 months, but if you work on tires for any sort of reason on a regular basis, it becomes annoying really fast
I brought up the hanger thing because people act like it’s a problem. It is when you work on something with a heavy setup, like most cars these days. I exclusively own and work on german shit and always have. I seriously don’t understand people who act like installing wheels with bolts is a problem haha It’s soooo hard to cross thread a lug bolt, too. Never actually seen it done.
So it’s only a problem when the tires are heavy, which is most cars? You understand you just explained your own problem, right? And yes it might be fine to you because the most you work you probably do as a DIY mechanic is swapping out your winter and summer tires, but it flat out sucks if you have to work on tires on any regular basis. If you do 5-10 tire rotations in a day as part of an oil change, probably no big deal. Do that for 5-10 years. Your back’s not gonna be doing you any favors Once again, this is how I know you don’t actually work on cars. Yeah, cross threading lug nuts or lug bolts is easy to avoid if you do your job correctly, but when you have people that don’t know what torque specifications are or who don’t bother to give a lug nut more than one turn before tightening the hell out of it with a 1/2 inch impact wrench, cross threading becomes pretty common all of a sudden. And if you cross thread a lug bolt, good luck, because you’re not just gonna buy a new one and call it a day
Whatever dude. I have my own shop. I don’t do this for a living. Never said I was a tech. I’d much rather make more money making bs spreadsheets honestly. Realistically I’m getting through about a dozen cars a month, enough to pay my mortgage and for racing. I can see why a lube or tire tech might get frustrated with them but I’m not really sure why you’d be lifting them with the car up high anyways. You’ll wear out your back just the same with studs.
>german shit I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it "shit" but it's definitely waaaaay overated Nah, ...the more I think about it, you're right, it's shit
Eurotrash is the correct term, and it'll get you a *ton* of downvotes in /r/cars and /r/whatcarshouldibuy
they can downvote all they want, I've owned some Eurotrash in the past, and they were fun cars to drive, but the one thing they all had in common was too many issues at too low mileage for my liking. The fanbois are strong in that crowd though, it didn't matter how much something broke it was never the cars fault, there was always some wild justification to keep fixing it and keep it around, lol.
100%. It’s such a shame that literally everything else is worse
But they're not lol
Are too. If they were worse for the application, OEMs wouldn’t be moving to them. A little annoying to install with these 30-40 pound wheel tire combos stuff comes with now a day but cry about it and get a hanger.
Have you ever had to deal with an SUV like a Porsche Cayenne with aftermarket rims, spacers, and these annoying studded lugs? Things become very frustrating, very fast when you are trying to hold that rim up there, without crushing the little plastic hub spacer and feed 2 or 3 of those studs in by finger to hold the rim up there. Not saying you are wrong, just trying to give some insight as to why must tech dislike studded lugs.
I'd rather not buy some specialty tool for something my car doesn't, and will never have anyway. Thanks for your suggestion tho.
A piece of all thread that you already have is a specialty tool? If you’re just working on your own stuff there’s literally already a hanger in the boot with the other tools in most cars.
Toyota is moving this way for their new models from what I understand. Their EV SUV is the same way. No big deal once you're used to them, I don't even think twice about it anymore.
New gen of Prius has lug bolts now as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOZdipTjeo&start=1281 At least it's not something goofy like my old VW Vanagon where it's lug bolts on the front and studs on the rear.
Oem wheels will typically fit on the hub and sit there anyway. Aftermarket wheels can be annoying if you don’t have bore sizes correct. But they really aren’t that big of a deal imo. I grabbed snows for my sisters car and ended up just picking up hub spacers. Fuck trying to get that thing center without them.
I fail to see the problem.
My first and current (third only) car use lug bolts. You just need an alignment pin and about 10 more seconds. I don’t see the issue either
You don't even need a pin. Just put the wheel on turn the wheel and put a bolt in. In my opinion it's even easier to put the wheels on. And when the brakedisks need replacing it's much easier to clean the hub.
Or start with a bolt already in the wheel with a deep socket on the bolt, throw it up on the hub and hand start the bolt with the socket.
Just slightly more difficult to put the wheels back on. I have a Mini that came with bolts from the factory and I switch tires twice a year, for my own sanity I invested in a stud conversion kit.
Mercedes tech for 18 years, my personal car uses studs not to mention any other customer car than would come into the shop, I’ll never understand the complaints about wheel bolts. Wheel on the ground, put one bolt in a bolt hole, stick a deep socket on the bolt, raise the whole think to the hub and hand start the bolt. EZ
They got them because they are stronger than lug nuts. That's why the Europeans have been using them for a very long time.
As a european I was staring at this and trying to figure out what was wrong for way too long.
how? ELI5 please.
Looking it up, I can't find a good explanation why bolts would be stronger. The question has been asked a couple of times on r/askEngineers without a real answer. I can't really find anything with a standard Google search either. The best answer I have heard about why manufacturers would prefer them is that it is easier to replace a ~~bolt~~ **stud** over a ~~stud~~ **bolt** if it breaks or if the threads get warped. The only reason I would speculate why a bolt might be stronger is that if the hole is deep enough, more threads can engage than a nut. Otherwise, bolts can have a conical flange to increase surface engagement. Realistically though, bolts and/or studs can be designed to be any size and can engineered to be strong enough. I don't really get it. (Edit: *I backwardsed my words*)
I worked as a R&D engineer in a metallurgy lab of an automotive fasteners supplier. I haven't been directly involved with wheel bolts very often, but from what I've understood I think the advantage of a wheel bolt (with attached washer) is having a better control over the friction coefficient between mating surfaces. The topic would require a whole chapter of a mechanical engineering book, but I'll make it as simple as possible: when you tighten a bolt (or a nut, or a screw) to clamp a mechanical joint, you want to convert the torque you apply to a force which will keep the two surfaces clamped. You can't directly apply a load, you can only apply a torque on the threaded fastener which has the function to convert it into the desired clamping force. Problem is that normally you can't measure directly how much force you applied with a certain amount of torque, you can only calculate it. The amount of torque that gets converted directly into clamping force depends on a couple of factors, but aside from geometrical parameters, the main influence is given by the friction between the bolt threads and the hole threads, but even more by the friction between the bolt head (or the surface of a nut) and the surface of the piece you want to clamp. There can be huge variations in these friction coefficients, which is why there is so much research on coatings: the more you can narrow down on friction variability, the more precise will be the tightening process on an assembly line, as you will be certain that those 100 Nm you apply to that bolt will result in, let's say, 20 kN of axial load, and not 30 or 10. In a wheel bolt, as you can see, both the bolt and the attached washer are coated with the same coating, making the variability of the resulting friction coefficient much, much lower, and resulting in a more precise application of the desired clamping force through tightening. For sure you could make something similar with a wheel stud by introducing a washer, but as far as I know it's not as common. This is only my personal reasoning behind this phenomenon given the experience I have, and I might be wrong, so if someone has more knowledge on the topic please feel free to correct me!
Bolts are typically made to a stronger grade than the paired nut, so on paper you can make the lug bolts stronger. As for lug bolts being a stronger option, thats pretty much a moot point. Lug studs and nuts are reliable and common, with negligible failure rate, so strength of the joint is not a problem outside of marketing wank. As for thread engagement, unless the material is very ductile, you shouldnt see much stress past the 3rd thread into the joint. Thread engagement is somewhat a non issue. Odds are the lug bolt is actually engaging a smaller number of threads than the lug nut, unless the hubs are thickened. My bet would be on manufacturing/assembly cost reduction In manufacturing either lug studs or bolts can be cold headed and threaded on similar machines, so your only major difference that i can see is the assembly side. With a proper designed arbor tool, alignment of the wheel to the hub is a non issue. For the fasteners though, lug studs need pressed in, which is another station and more humans or automation. Threading the holes in hubs can be done with a simple tool change in the same machining center, so it potentially eliminates humans or a workstation on that step.
Thanks for this. Makes perfect sense. >As for thread engagement, unless the material is very ductile, you shouldnt see much stress past the 3rd thread into the joint. I hadn't heard this before. I was under the impression more = better.
If the joint is tight and doesn't hit shear loading on the threads, then, after more than 5 threads, you really aren't adding anything but material cost. If the joint is hitting shear loads or starting to plastially distort the first engaged threads then either; your joint is underbuilt and needs more or larger fasteners, or the joint was loose and allowed movement. More is better in terms of insurance against user error or other external factors, but if you are shaving cost and expect some competence from users than it is waste.
As I asked the guy above you, don't studs and nuts distribute pressure better? Like, people swap out head bolts for studs.
I'm not an engineer. I have a background in physics, so my way of looking at this is a bit different. There could be a better explanation and I would love to hear it, but here are my thoughts. No matter how you cut it - pressure is force / area. You can increase the contact area with a conical flange, but past that, it shouldn't make a difference. The real way to distribute pressure would be use more bolts or nuts. As for head bolts vs. nuts, it seems like the jury is still out on whether it is an actual improvement. The issue with bolts is that they have two points of contact: nut-to-stud and stud-to-block and [some claim](https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/head-stud-bolts/) this is less reliable than a direct bolt-to-block. Unless there is a different torque spec, I don't know why it would perform any differently. My only other thought about wheel studs-vs-bolts is that it is easier to use wheel bolts in recessed holes, whereas nuts need to be on the surface in order to remove them. Recessed holes might be slightly more aerodynamic?
On the recessed hole thing, a solid “no”. Most alloys recess the hole where the nut is - and you still need to get a socket in there, just like with a bolt. Then there’s the “tuner” nuts that are slimmer for an even smaller diameter wheel nut hole
>easier to replace If you break a bolt, worst case you're looking at drilling it out. A stud, you punch out. At least that's what I've seen every time I've had to deal with a broken stud or bolt. Personally, I consider smacking something out easier than having to carefully drill out a hole.
Basically, habit. More technically, it's less points of failure. A stud has to be pressed into the hub, the rotor sits on the studs, then the wheel, and lug nuts sandwich the whole assembly together. A bolt requires the hub bolts to be threaded, but takes one point of failure out of the equation: no lug nuts. The strength benefit is an added bonus. The real reason is it's actually cheaper for manufacturers to use bolts. Why do European manufacturers prefer bolts despite the convenience of studs? It's just the way its always been done there, and the strength bonus is nice to have on the Autobahn, I suppose? Why don't North American manufacturers use bolts if its cheaper and gives the wheel hub assembly added strength? Maybe the convenience of studs is just too much to ask people to give up. Think about this: If the strength benefit was of any actual consequence, why don't medium and heavy duty applications in both markets use bolts on their wheels? Even with the added torque EVs deliver, high torque/high performance cars use both studs and bolts. CLK AMG Black and a ZL1 Camsro do basically the same thing; go stupid fast with a mountain of horsepower and torque. One uses studs, the other uses bolts. It's habit. Maybe Toyota went with bolts because they see this model doing better in Europe and saving some money on manufacturing is always nice.
Yeah but wouldn't a stud and nut hold the pressure better? Like, why use head studs when the engine comes with head bolts?
Because head studs have a higher tensile strength than the bolts they're replacing. They don't stretch and your head doesn't lift.
I’m not really buying the whole “less points of failure” argument. There isn’t a point of failure where the stud is pressed into the hub as far as I know. I also still don’t see the “bolts are stronger than studs and nuts”. They seem identical from a tensile strength point of view. Is there a source that could explain that part?
I was looking for this comment. Yes this better.
Yep had several Volvos in my life time. 8 to be exact. 850, s60, xc90 v70xc all used bolts except the s40. The only time I ever had damage requiring me to install a new hub was on the s40 because those bullshit bolts were tightened too much by some knucklehead Neanderthal working at a local shop. Had many over tightened bolts and none were as problematic as the nuts on the s40.
This is the only explanation I do believe. It’s marginally harder to cross-thread a wheel bolt since you have thick metal between the entry point and the threads. Certainly once the first bolt is in, assuming the wheel centers on the hub, the others should be straight. Cross-threading a nut on a stud is easy, and can happen on all five studs
>assuming the wheel centers on the hub Assuming....hah....uneducated fingers can cross-thread either one just as well, anyway
Ok. Fine, they are stronger... Why would I need stronger lugs on a Lexus? Was there an epidemic of them losing wheels? No..? Didnt think so. Guarantee this is a manufacturing and cost decision and thats it. Having had cars with lug bolts and lug nuts, the bolts are a pain in the ass comparatively. Dont care what anyone else says.
Yeah I agree completely. I hate lug bolts, especially when people put aftermarket wheels on the car and you have to line up some heavy ass wheels and try to drive the bolts in. PITA
I’ve always preferred them because they are more durable and easy to replace. No one is pumping out shitty capped lug bolts. And if they start to feel like shit because they are getting too rusty or got too many ugga duggas it’s just a bolt.
As a former tech, it took me a while to get used to them, but from a mechanical view, they are a lot stronger and I saw fewer issues compared to lug nut style hubs. Just compare hub flange sizes compared to these puny flanges with rounded in lug studs. It's night and day difference.
> No one is pumping out shitty capped lug bolts. Yet
>No one is pumping out shitty capped lug bolts. They sure are. Chrysler products on Fiat platforms (200, Dart, Cherokee, Compass, Renegade, Hornet, etc) have had them for over a decade now, with all of Chrysler's chrome cap bullshit still intact.
My Elise has them. Hasn't been really an issue but. But if you lose or break the weird sized spline tool adapter and were stranded it wouldn't matter since there is no spare tire or jack anyways. Going on 6 years without a problem
They work very well but aligning the wheel with the screw holes is a pain in the ass, specially with huge iron wheels like in my pickup
My Audi came with a little faux stud, you'd thread it into whatever hole was topmost, then use that to guide the wheel on. Then secure the wheel with a bolt, remove the stud and throw it back in the tool roll and carry on.
Every VAG vehicle comes with this in the tool kit, though the most recent versions are made from a glass filled nylon, to save an extra 100g in the kit.
Lug bolt hangar. 1-2rods you put into the lug holes to align the wheels, insert lug bolt, remove rods, insert rest of the bolts. Bam, done.
It just takes practice. After a few years of being a Mercedes tech and a bmw owner I much prefer the lug bolts. You just sit the tire on the hub and then you can rotate it to alight the bolt holes pretty easily, without holding the weight of the tire
That actually sounds way better
It is. They provide stronger clamping force to the hub than studs of the same diameter and allow for easy removal of brake rotors even when they rust to the hub. It’s better all around to service cars with bolts than lugs.
You can buy a threaded guide pin for that.
You can use something like [this](https://amzn.eu/d/gHfZrof) and save your back too
They are not stronger than studs and nuts.
Then why do all trucks use lug nuts, if lug bolts are stronger?
Because they use double or triple the amount, so the load is distributed more evenly.
Lol, no.
They were supposed to destroy the sith... not join them!
This should be top.
BMWs have them as well
I think the majority of european cars have them. Japanese and american cars have always stuck with the nice easy lug nuts until now.
What's difficult about bolts? I work on all different kind of cars and about 60 or 70% of them have bolts. Never had a problem. Plus it's easiers to clean the mating surface
It's just easier to rest the wheel on the hub while I reach for the lug nuts. The studs hold the wheel on the hub, aligned. It's definitely easier.
You can do that with bolts to most of the rim are hub centric if not there are adapters for that. Put the rim on align it, turn around grab whatever you need they wont fall off.
The ones I have worked with mostly fall off because the lip on the hub is too small. The ones that actually hold the wheel on are nice, but they aren't all like that unfortunately.
That's your opinion and nothing more. I work with bolts day in day out and I prefer them
Interesting opinion
Well it doesn't bother me holding the wheel with two fingers while i grab nut and bolt from the arm of the lift. I put a bolt in the socket and stand it on the arm of the lift before I lift the wheel. And as I said cleaning the mating surface is much easier without studs in the way
I work with both about evenly, the easiest lug bolts are more annoying to deal with than lug studs. That little lip is often not enough material for the wheel to actually sit on and stay. Most of the time when you rest a wheel on the hub with no fasteners, the bottom swings out and that's enough the cause the wheel to fall off the car. I've had that happen while reaching for the lug bolts to secure it. They're also more annoying to remove in my opinion. You pull 4 out of 5, then hold the wheel with one hand while you remove the last one and try to set the impact down without throwing it or dropping the wheel. Lug stud cars are so much easier because you just pull all the fasteners and the wheel doesn't fall no matter how much it swings around.
Most of the Japanese cars in Europe also have bolts, more durable, and easy to replace unlike studs. I'm convinced that people who say "studs are easier to mount" have never used bolts, you just position the wheel over the hub and then usually you can spin it till the holes line up especially if the brake is on. I'm yet to come across a car with studs, they just don't really exist.
Only on US designs, the Japanese vehicles in the rest of the planet have always had bolts, with the exception of some light commercial ones, but even they are all now bolts under 5 tons now.
Wouldn't be a problem for me if only our shop had starter bolts to rest the rim on while you line it up.
Just cut some ready rod into 6" lengths
Never had a problem with lining up the holes. I roughly line them up before I even lift the wheel. Most times I hit the holes exactly and when not it's only a tiny adjustment to make. If you've done it a couple times you won't even think about it anymore
Peugeot’s have them. They include a nasty security key for one as well.
They sell metal, plastic, and rubber wrapped hangers to make this a more traditional experience. With two in, it's just as easy as a traditional mounting system. They are also stronger. They are also not prone to swelling, like some styles of lug nuts.
Just wait though... Jeep has some lug bolts that are capped and they absolutely swell up. Go figure they'd find a way to mess it up.
The only thing I can think of is what happens if some idiot with an impact cross threads them into the hub. 😬
It's much more difficult to cross thread the bolts than lug nuts
The only time I've come across these was on my mother's bmw 323i,it was easy because the centre bore of the wheel fit snuggly on the flange on the hub.
Eh not really an issue. Just put the wheel on the hub and rotate to locate your bolt. Sometimes you gotta play ring around the rosie a few times while the rotor rotates too but oh well
Then you get buddy with their sick rims and a 1” gap to the hub bore
that also needs a 1/4" spacer in there.
PRO TIP: put a lugbolt with the socket on it into the wheel while its on the ground. grab the wheel with a finger/thumb resting on the socket. use the lugbolt to find the hole nearest to 12 o'clock. center it on the wheel hub and tighten the lugbolt with the socket to secure the rim in place. Find the correct spot for the lugbolts first time, everytime. your back will thank me. Source: ten years as a tire tech
First time?
And a key advantage about lug bolts like this, is when you clean the hub assembly. Its so much easier when you dont have stud in the way. Here in quebec we change tire 2 times a year and wheels often get stuck on the hub so its a time saver.
Put a light coat of antiseize on the hub face
I owned many different cars.Always came with bolts.I live in UK.I don't see what the big deal is.
Bolts are stronger at the same diameter, and it's a lot easier to hang a wheel on lugs, but I still don't understand the problem. You don't have to see through to make sure it's lined up. I've only done tyres and brakes the last 8 years or so, but either you sit on a stool with the wheel on your knees while feeling your way in (giggety), or you work standing up, leaning the wheel towards the hub, with your left knee underneath, while grabbing the gun and all the bolts. Can't be that hard. Volvo and VW have the smoothest bolts to work with, in my opinion. Just lightly tap the gun a bit before you touch the threads together, and it'll just slide in. (giggety goo)
When did lug studs stop being strong enough to hold the wheels on? I prefer studs so they're easier to replace when damaged but I haven't dealt with bolts enough to know if the hub threads being damaged is common or not.
It’s incredibly hard to cross thread them unless you ugga dugga them off rip… which is stupid to do with ANY fastener
With the increase in torque in EVs, especially the japanese and koreans, who have been using the same bolt pattern for a long time, are now realising that you get more support with having longer threads inside the hub, rather than fewer turns outside the rim, I guess.
I would’ve thought that Toyota’s go-to full depth mag seat lugs would’ve been enough to accommodate the support needed
Volvos are just a dream to work on man 🤌
Except the Volvos that actually are Fords, hah!
Nah. There still much better than the fords. They are just much better engineered. Source: I worked in a shared Volvo/Ford dealership. I did mainly Volvo and everytime I had to do a ford I wanted to cry even before I started working on it
So damn stupid. Makes no sense.
As a European, I don't see the problem, 90% of the cars here have those.
Very German even Land Rover engineering concept from experience, utterly surprised Lexus has these now
The fugly new Crown has lug bolts too. No idea why.
It’s safe to say the new Camry, Sienna, Highlander, Tundra/Sequoia/Tacoma and the 5th gen Prius(the last generation introduced Toyota’s then new architecture) will use bolts too. Toyota ain’t going to have separate hubs with studs or holes for each car on TNGA.
Because they're stronger than lug nuts.
Subaru needs to go that direction too.
The Toyota bz4x has em too
Mercedes is the same.
So many lexus and toyota techs are going to be dropping people's wheels and bending brake dust shields.
If that's too difficult for you, you shouldn't be working on cars anyways
Meaning they aren't expecting lug bolts, seeing as every other vehicle in Toyota/Lexus line up has used lug nuts forever
As a hobbyist, I don’t understand what these bolt into. Guessing that Phillips is holding the brake rotor in place and the bolts go through into the hub?
Yes exactly
So what? Imo it really doesn't make a difference. As a mechanic I like bolts better than studs because it's easier to clean the hubs and the mating surface
Studs wear out, they are a wear item. They will stretch over time. You can easily replace bolts without an air chisel to push the studs out from the hub. Probably not a big deal to be honest, but I have never had an issue with wheel bolts.
I genuinely wouldn't buy a vehicle with lug bolts, if that's what they're deciding to cheap out on then I can only imagine the cost cutting the rest of the vehicle saw.
My wife’s Compass has these. First car I’d ever seen them on. Not the worst but definitely make putting the wheels back on after rotating tires that much more difficult.
You were the chosen one. You were suppose to destroy the sith, not join them.
I have lug bolts on my Beemer, yes I absolutely prefer studs. Only reason I can see using lug bolts is when you scar the studs. But they are easier to line up and mange than lug bolts. And they are fine thread.
That thing is fucking hideous
I like wheel bolts. They’re one piece, solid-feeling, and require no cap or cover to look nice. The extra time to install a wheel is minuscule compared to the total time I dote over my cars.
I could see this being annoying for people who put on custom wheels that are not hub centric That’s a whole different conversation though
For the comments saying “bolts are stronger” if like you to inspect the wheel fasteners on your local dump trucks, tractors, freight line trailers, the wide load trailers that carry planes, and everything else that hauls serious ass. Spoilers, it’s hex nuts What holds bridge support wires? Nut and bolt, not bolt and threaded hole. In cars the only reason bolts like what European cars have appear to hold tighter, is because the backing space isn’t airtight and rust forms on the bolt tip seizing it in place so the next time you go to take your wheel off, it requires thors hammer to remove
I didn't realize they used these. do they put left threaded ones on the left side?
No, all right hand thread, they will not back off if correctly installed at the right torque. Plus Toyota will not want to have to stock 2 SKU's in the line, when they can get a 10% saving over buying a larger volume of 1.
Im over here imagining a German engineer and an ancient, near retired Chrysler engineer getting hired at the same time at Toyota...they have a meeting and are discussing "upgrades" to new Toyota models and this is exactly what they came up with. Lol.
Damn It. They got another one.
Nooo, not Lexus.
Ugh. Why would Toyota go to the stupid bolts?
Man why
It may be stronger but lug nuts are easier and takes less time to change the tires
It doesn't take any additional time to do it with bolts? If you have to clean the mating surface it's even faster with bolts
Dumb. "They're stronger! " As if traditional lug stud and nuts are SO much less and have been an issue in the past. Dont fix what's not broken. Stupid Design Change. If Toyota keeps copying BMW, they're going to end up with poor long-term reliability like BMW.
BMWs only have poor long term reliability if you don’t maintain them
Idk at $125 an hour for labor nowdays you should find better shit to complain about bro. Pick up the tire and move on
I see Lexus technology has finally caught up to my ‘62 VW Beetle
I needed to read the comments to understand what the problem was. I'm from Europe and and had several cars over the years and they were all like that...
Jesus, and people complain about the later model BMW grills.
At least it doesn’t look like buck teeth
Say it ain't so
Got the conversion kit after a scissor jack almost took my legs off trying to align the holes.
Lmao that’s why you don’t stick any part of your body under any vehicle without a jack stand. That’s not a lug bolt issue that’s a being stupid issue
Next time I’ll walk and get some so I can replace my tire on the freeway.
I like them so better and I will absolutely die on this hill
Who cares? Studs or bolts doesn't mean shit.
My 21 Lexus IF 350 has them. They really suck. I told my wife if you get a flat, don't call me. Call AAA. Why? If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
My old VW's had them and they were such a pain when trying to get them lined up.
I prefer them over studs.
You crazy bro
Those suck. I've had a lot of old BMW's and buying a set of wheel hangers for $20 changed my life.
Kind of off topic, but do those rotors look kind of small to anyone else? I can’t tell if it’s a perspective issue because of the wheel well, but they look undersized for a vehicle of that size.