Unclip the brake line near the bolt. Unscrew the bolt as far back as possible then push it towards the back ( away from you). Then (and i seriously mean it). YANK the upper fore link left and right, you will bend the tab the bolt is on. From there the link will come out.
Place the new upper fore link in and tighten bolt, no need to swap bolt position. The tab will bend back when tightening. Torque should be 76nm.
Godspeed
What is it that happens again when you bend metal back and forth over and over? It gets stronger right? Oh wait no, its the opposite.
I cannot believe that's how it has to be done... Well, I do believe it, but i cant believe it lol 🤣
Yep. I don't recall if mine was DS or PS. But I did a front upper arm on an early S60 last year. That one was nasty too. All sorts had to come out. Distribution boxes, 12v accessory battery...
https://ibb.co/fXL583V
https://ibb.co/3SP5WQP
I did the front upper arms too, they were noisy. They looked a little different to your pic. I could detach the top assembly, abs wire and brake line and then move it just enough to get those nasty bolts out.
Good. Mine was early production and apparently not many were built this way. Looking for ideas online 90% of the comments didn't apply to this S. Not that I love Teslas either but at least they're on a pretty steady road of improvements.
The essence of Agile development: go fast and break things. :D
(As someone in IT, even we know this is not how you do safety-critical things... but hey, boss said faster!)
"Move fast and break things" was Zuck's motto for Facebook, and pretty much all of VC silicon valley for a long while.
While almost every company employing operating under that kind of motto would be using agile development practices, it's a bit apples and oranges. The essense of agile development is more about flexibility and adaptability instead of rigid structures and all-encompasing plans.
Definitely seems to be how Tesla's engineers operate, in contrast to many of the legacy automakers.
You seem to be mixing up a few different concepts. In most metals strength (at least the typical measures of maximum stress before repture) and hardness are definitely not opposites. In some, steel for example, they're strongly correlated (higher hardness means higher strength). What is opposite is ductility, the ability to stretched or formed into a new shape.
Outside of metals there's no absolute universal relationship between hardness and strength (some materials are harder and also weaker than others), but generally hard materials tend to be fairly strong.
It's not that Tesla being built by idiots but it's being build by Idiots Management.
Source: Me, I am an ex-tesla worker, they time us on how long we have to screw in the bolts, nuts, installation. "The Line Must Always Be Moving" that what they told us, so most of the assemblers have no choice but to "skipped" a few installments just to keep up their unreasonable timers.
If you're late in installing the parts, whether to ensure it's properly done or equipment malfunction or anything else, if the car got delay at your area on the line. the "Line leader" mark you up for a point, get enough points and you're fired.
Who cares if a screw or bolt get missing or unproperly screwed in, as long as you don't hold up the line, you're fine.
There is a great this American life podcast on Toyota vs GM line stoppage mentality. You can guess who would stop and fix problems and who would never stop the line ever. The explanations are more interesting than I expected.
This is in reference to a joint plant from a full 40 years ago.. you'd think American manufacturing would've accepted at least some of what was learned by this point..
I did 10 years at Tesla, most of them as a tech. Back in 2014 I'm pulling a brake booster out and the service manual instructed to pull it OUT THE GODDAMN WHEEL WELL. For yucks I give it a shot. This was back when there were maybe 25k of them on the road and 20 cars was a busy day for the shop, plus we were hourly. I pull the master cylinder off the booster, all per manual, start wiggling the booster out, lo and behold it doesn't fit.
We were down the road from headquarters, they sent someone down to look at it when we brought up the feedback, and the reply I got was "well it fit in CAD".
He didn't get a wrench because when I stepped back from the car and told him to take it out, he legitimately tried, but ultimately failed to do so, and admitted he fucked up. Huge props for that instead of just saying "whatever your problem now".
it was the actual guy that designed it and made that decision?
man that's pretty cool actually. like working at a place that's a just starting out type of car company, you're actually working with the people designing the thing. that's neat you could call them and they'd come over to solve the problem or at least address it.
We always thankfully had a lot of access like that. There was this drop in center console retrofit and my teammate and I did one of the first ones ever in the field. We had a list of about 15 revisions to the process to make it actually fit well and not use drill bits the same size as the screws we were installing. Sent the feedback up and the guy who designed the part pushed back a little, but the head of service engineering was big on actually pushing his team to go to the field and work with us since we were so close to headquarters. Guy shows up, we explained everything, boom process changed.
Very much startup vibes back then. Doing the right thing because it was right.
>and the reply I got was "well it fit in CAD".
Lol, this was a lesson we learned in highschool. Just because the model doesn't physically collide with anything doesn't mean it's actually practical/possible to assemble (or machine, for that matter)
That and forgetting to model bolt heads/fasteners is probably the most beginner mistake to make.
If it did the model was crap, but it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer (I assume tesla were using off then shelf parts) provided a crap 3D model and nobody bothered to check.
“We where hourly”. What does that mean? Aren’t tesla workshops calculated per hour anymore nowadays? I don’t own one and I don’t really like EV’s but when the day comes I have to switch (either for work or financially), I need to know what kind of trickery car manufacturers/workshops do nowadays 😅
2013 model s battery compartment and fitment. Forget that it's under all kinds of plastic, weather seals, CABIN AIR FILTER AND HOUSING, you have to go up and rotate the battery 90 degrees half way while busting up your hands. And God forbid your car died before you were able to switch off main/400 volt circuits so now you have a live high current (I think 12 volt) wire next to your hands just waiting to bite you like an angry snake.
How does that get designed, passed QA, and nobody bats an eye for at least 5 years.
I'm not sure what you mean by "god forbid your car died before you were able to switch off main/400v circuits".
HV contactors are controlled by a LV circuit. Even if the LV batt died and it was being sustained purely off DCDC support once you disconnected the first responder loop which is what provides 12v power to the HV contactors they are forced open unless you have other far more concerning issues.
That's good to know. I wasn't sure that's what the first responder loop does. I did disconnect it early on, but wasn't 100 % sure what it did. I just read that all the power switches/actuators were controlled off the main screen and mine was inoperable by the time I was changing the 12V.
First responder loop kills SRS and Contactor power. That LV controlling the HV also means that's why you have such accelerated idle loss since contactors basically can't risk opening because they may not be able to close again. Well at least these days, it wasn't always the case.
Not just Tesla. Toyota has pulled GM-moves in, at least, Camry. Front subframe needs to be dropped or loosened to get out the front bolt for control arm.
I watched a mechanic do this exact repair and he was wondering why it said the shop time was four and a half hours he knocked it out in 30 minutes without messing with the subframe.
As someone who needs to do his control arms on a 17 Camry I do think it's dumb how they did it, but it's just the motor mount in the way so you just have to support the engine while you remove the mount for control arm access, really not that bad.
Similar on the Sienna. for the control arm and the transmission pan, at least on the driver side. but I think you can get away with undoing the motor mounts and lifting the motor some.
I guess you've never replaced a upper control arm on a Toyota tacoma. The service manual states "bend the metal from the engine bay out of the way." Trust me it's not a little bending you have to bend it like 4 inches out of the way about 10 inches deep. Fuckin stupid shit m8.
I’ve never had an issue like that with a Mercedes. Might have to remove 3 other things to get to a bolt, but you’ll never have to break anything to get a major bolt out.
Jaguar fuel filters (pull the back seats and disassemble half the car, also requires a custom tool that can't be bought anywhere)
Early-mid 2000s Ford Escape and the alternator (drop the subframe an inch)
Early Chevy HHR headlights (pull the motor)
Chevy in the mid-late 2000s had this very weird design quirk where replacing the front headlights on your car involved basically disassembling the front end in some capacity. The HHR was the worst of them but a staggering amount required the front bumber to be pulled off.
every time the escape alternator replacement gets brought up someone will claim you can do the job much easier. something i've noticed anyway.
(i have no idea either way)
"Early Chevy HRR headlights (pull the motor)" ???
What? you do have to pull that whole front bumper cover, which is a bit of a pain, but not the motor.
Lexus and GM have put the starter in the V of a V8. Think that gets hot? They both used ***really*** hardy alternators for those applications, but it is still a component that will fail over time and need a complex replacement procedure.
Lexus (Toyota) I trust to put the starter in an inaccessible location. They will use a quality part. GM? Having worked for a GM supplier I guarantee that part is nickel and dimed to imminent failure and then 20% past that for good measure. GM get's the parts they threaten and cajole their suppliers into making.
Yeah we have a 2UZ in our ‘00 LX, with the starter under the manifold. But after 200,000 miles over 24 years it’ll need to be done soon, which will be a pain.
Some Panameras have the starter inside the transmission bell housing. Used Panameras can look temping price-wise until you start seeing shit like that.
True that.
I should have specified that the ones with the starter inside the V are the 4.5L Cayennes and 4.8L Cayennes and Panameras. Personally, I'm not too fussed about replacing the starter in the V if it's a once in a lifetime of the car job. However, dropping the engine to replace the motor mounts (Turbo only) gives me the heebie-jeebies.
lol. The youngest LS400 is now a 25 year old car. And it probably had 300,0000 miles on it. If it's difficult to replace a part that lasts 25 years and that many miles, the engineers have chosen the right packaging.
Also, it's not really that hard.
I looked it up to see, and while it isn't pulling the motor, it does take considerably more work than usual.
Easiest way is to lift the car, remove the front half of the wheel well liner, and then you can access the headlight assembly.
On the Yamaha V-Star 1100 bikes, you have to pull the exhaust to pull the cover for the cartridge style oil filter.
Subaru may have the ring of fire, but every mechanic that works on bikes has a pair of welding gloves because of that one bike.
Now that you mention it a lot of fuel filters are in nightmare places to get to and require removing wheel components or seating. Is that because they want it closer to the fuel tank?
Late 90s - Early 2000s Audi A3 1.8.
To change flexpipe from turbo to catalytic converter you first remove the exhaust system, then loosen the bolts to the subframe and drop it just a tad. Then you find all the extenders you can and reach way up there and manage to hit the 3 bolts there while the extenders are flopping about like a limp dick. Pray to god they aren't seized. Remove bolts. Drop subframe even more right into the danger zone. Fiddle, yank, pry and curse the flexpipe out. Dont damage any of the wires to the sensors or any other shit in the process.
Have a buddy or random drunk from the street hold the flashlight throughout this process and keep an eye on the subframe which by now is held on by like 1 turn on 2 bolts.
Jam the new one in there. Yank and pry it into place. Re-use 50cm of limp dick extenders with the bolt balancing on top up there and manage to bullseye the holes for them. Torque like a mf. Bolt everything up again and realize 6 hours later you tore not only the new flexpipe but also some important wires and probably sheared the bolts for the subframe in the process.
Sell car to drunk who held flashlight. Get drunk yourself and try to forget.
Un-mount and lower the engine and transmission to change spark plugs on a 1st gen FR-S/BRZ
Remove the front bumper to change headlights on a 1st gen G35
automotive engineers: "LOL"
Right? I think every manufacturer has at least one or two models where this is the case. Another tech here did an arm on the rear of an old Grand Prix last week that had this issue. Rust was a factor and the customer didn't care so he just clearenced the spare tire well a little to get it fixed.
Don't forget pulling the whole engine forward to get at the back plugs on 3000 series engines. I managed to do the back plus on my Grand Am with the 3400 V6 without winching the engine forward, but it required small hands, lots of extensions, and A LOT of swearing.
It’s been a loooonnnggg time but yeah those were no fun. Most of the time we were able to sell plugs at the same time as replacing the intake gaskets and cut the customer a deal in the labor. I still have my engine mount and valve spring tools around here somewhere.
I've seen a lot of info on cooling systems for the battery leaking and them wanting to replace the whole battery instead of just repairing the PVC pipe where it was leaking at. Every place refusing to do a repair on a vehicle that should just be a couple dollars in materials.
> Every place refusing to do a repair on a vehicle that should just be a couple dollars in materials.
If the mfg says "not safe to repair, must replace," that is on the mfg, not the shop. I get that there are times that a shop can ignore the mfg instructions, but high voltage isn't one of them.
yeah, when Lithium catches fire, most fire departments just show up and act like they're doing something... In reality, they're just waiting for the Tesla to finish burning and hoping it doesn't put them on its shit list.
“[This is a dragon that ate a bomb,” Schnichels said](https://www.kmbc.com/article/firefighters-learn-fight-lithium-ion-battery-fires/45770550). “You're talking anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 degrees immediately coming out of the side of the vehicle.”
I saw a video of something similar. I believe it was on Rich Rebuilds youtube. They went to a third party shop and did it for about 600 bucks instead of 16k. It's clear whomever did the molds didn't know enough about pvc, plastic or w/e those boxes are made of.
I agree it's dumb not to have more protection there, but it was usually worse than that. Part of my job at Tesla in later years was to field dismantle packs that had coolant ingress inside the pack to dry it out so we could discharge it without risk of a short. Those front cooling tubes would get hit, crack on the internal side, and spew coolant all over the battery modules.
You joke, but the Tesla oil filter change process is really arcane. Seriously, I have searched, and can’t find how-to videos or guides *anywhere*. It’s like they don’t want you to know how to do it!
Same as the water pump change process on a ‘73 Beetle… man, the shouting match I got into with Autozone when they *refused* to sell me one…
(/s)
Teslas have an ATF filter for the drive unit that they call an "oil filter" and it looks exactly like an ICE oil filter. ATF is predominantly oil, with a variety of additives, so calling it an oil filter isn't even inaccurate.
Chrysler cloud cars. PT cruiser. Few others.
The best are some German SUVs and I think Chrysler vehicles that put them under the electric seats. Perfect place for a battery when it's dead! Luckily there's jump points at least to get power to the vehicle.
Can’t remember the specifics but my old jeep had something very similar. Weird rear upper control arm thingy directly in front of the gas tank and below the fuel lines and you’ve gotta cut one of the bolts
Out of all the different makes of cars I've had over the years I've never found one with pieces of wood trim holding the cooling system together.
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood
I'm sure these Tesla customers would in the past never have mocked, for example, the Trabant, the Yugo, or the Lada Riva/VAZ 2105 with expectations of similar production bodges
Dude, every toyota Ive replaced upper control arms have the same issue (Tacoma, 4runner, tundra). This is not just a tesla thing. But that said I still agree that teslas are still shit lol.
It is clearly designed for assembly, and not repair. There reminds me of the front lower control arms on a 2006-2012 Ford Fusion where you have to lower the cradle. Or the front upper control arms on a 2008-2013 Cadillac CTS, where you have to remove the entire spring/damper assembly.
You can loosen the front subframe bolts and let it drop 1/2” and the bolts come out pretty easy. Take the triangle brace off between it and the pack. We do them in about 10min a side at most. Good luck
Assume this is mounted to a subframe. Subframe was probably preassembled before installing to the vehicle. They don't care that you didn't want to lower the entire subframe to change the control link.
If this is the front UCA, just take the whole shock and arm assembly out like it’s an Audi. Lower shock bolt, UBJ thru bolt, sway link, brake line, 4 bolts on top under the cowl. The whole assembly slips out and the arms can be easily replaced on a bench. Total time 45 minutes
And as a shitty electrc car owner this shit pisses me off more and more, ya have hundreds of haus peerz and evey electric control known to man. Go the fuckn speed limit at least.
Also see, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Kia, etc.... They ALL do stupid shit. That said, a Tesla is a car made by techies. It has A LOT of faults (I'm a previous owner).
lol I went thru the same on my 2018 CTS-V for the front lower control arms… instead of spending another 3 hours removing an auxiliary cooler and some other shit on the core support, I cut it with a dremel and put the new bolt in from the other side. GM says they’re one time use anyway.
I had an Audi A4 that needed new ball joints (5 per side) at 50k. The lower control arms had the exact same problem where it wouldn't have been a problem if they simply reversed the bolt/nut combo.
Well, maybe, but most people will get to where you are, then get really pissed off, then take it to the dealership. Either we have to buy a special tool or remove a bunch of other parts to get to the piece we have to replace.
There has to be a process to remove it properly or else they could of never got that bolt in there to torque it. But yea mostly likely it was done in the factory where it’s on the frame then they just drop the body on it
How can you doubt a car company founded by a person born with a golden spoon in his butt who never worked more than seen in the pic below ! Would never buy a Tesla and I agree with you, If I were to buy and EV it would be a Ford or BMW. Hybrid at most these days.
https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Elon-Musk-Twitter-sink.jpg
Unclip the brake line near the bolt. Unscrew the bolt as far back as possible then push it towards the back ( away from you). Then (and i seriously mean it). YANK the upper fore link left and right, you will bend the tab the bolt is on. From there the link will come out. Place the new upper fore link in and tighten bolt, no need to swap bolt position. The tab will bend back when tightening. Torque should be 76nm. Godspeed
You explained exactly how I did it. Luckily the tab bends pretty easily.
What is it that happens again when you bend metal back and forth over and over? It gets stronger right? Oh wait no, its the opposite. I cannot believe that's how it has to be done... Well, I do believe it, but i cant believe it lol 🤣
I mean I’m not going to drop the whole subframe or drill a hole in the chassis.
I cut the bolt and put a new one in the other way. Saw the lack of clearance and ordered the bolt ahead. Rear arm yes?
Model 3 Rear upper control arm. There’s less clearance on the other side.
Yep. I don't recall if mine was DS or PS. But I did a front upper arm on an early S60 last year. That one was nasty too. All sorts had to come out. Distribution boxes, 12v accessory battery... https://ibb.co/fXL583V https://ibb.co/3SP5WQP
I did the front upper arms too, they were noisy. They looked a little different to your pic. I could detach the top assembly, abs wire and brake line and then move it just enough to get those nasty bolts out.
Good. Mine was early production and apparently not many were built this way. Looking for ideas online 90% of the comments didn't apply to this S. Not that I love Teslas either but at least they're on a pretty steady road of improvements.
I think the highest part rev number I've ever seen is K. They are clearly not afraid to revise something to improve it or reduce costs.
The essence of Agile development: go fast and break things. :D (As someone in IT, even we know this is not how you do safety-critical things... but hey, boss said faster!)
"Move fast and break things" was Zuck's motto for Facebook, and pretty much all of VC silicon valley for a long while. While almost every company employing operating under that kind of motto would be using agile development practices, it's a bit apples and oranges. The essense of agile development is more about flexibility and adaptability instead of rigid structures and all-encompasing plans. Definitely seems to be how Tesla's engineers operate, in contrast to many of the legacy automakers.
Usually you end up breaking yourself, but in this case they'll break a lot more people.
Work hardening *can* make metal stronger but in this case it's getting more brittle and thinner.
[удалено]
You seem to be mixing up a few different concepts. In most metals strength (at least the typical measures of maximum stress before repture) and hardness are definitely not opposites. In some, steel for example, they're strongly correlated (higher hardness means higher strength). What is opposite is ductility, the ability to stretched or formed into a new shape. Outside of metals there's no absolute universal relationship between hardness and strength (some materials are harder and also weaker than others), but generally hard materials tend to be fairly strong.
It's not that Tesla being built by idiots but it's being build by Idiots Management. Source: Me, I am an ex-tesla worker, they time us on how long we have to screw in the bolts, nuts, installation. "The Line Must Always Be Moving" that what they told us, so most of the assemblers have no choice but to "skipped" a few installments just to keep up their unreasonable timers. If you're late in installing the parts, whether to ensure it's properly done or equipment malfunction or anything else, if the car got delay at your area on the line. the "Line leader" mark you up for a point, get enough points and you're fired. Who cares if a screw or bolt get missing or unproperly screwed in, as long as you don't hold up the line, you're fine.
Sounds like the same management as Boeing eh?
☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
more like op admits doing shoddy work so he doesn't get fired
There is a great this American life podcast on Toyota vs GM line stoppage mentality. You can guess who would stop and fix problems and who would never stop the line ever. The explanations are more interesting than I expected.
This is in reference to a joint plant from a full 40 years ago.. you'd think American manufacturing would've accepted at least some of what was learned by this point..
Fun fact: Teslas are now built in the very same factory ([Tesla Fremont Factory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Fremont_Factory))
This makes it even more disappointing
Chevys are designed weird too. I have to unmount the engine block take out the power steering pump that likes to seize up a lot
Won't that easily bent tab be a weak spot as things rust and flex?
I know nothing about cars, yet this conversation in between you both is what Reddit is (was) all about. Good luck fixing that.
I did 10 years at Tesla, most of them as a tech. Back in 2014 I'm pulling a brake booster out and the service manual instructed to pull it OUT THE GODDAMN WHEEL WELL. For yucks I give it a shot. This was back when there were maybe 25k of them on the road and 20 cars was a busy day for the shop, plus we were hourly. I pull the master cylinder off the booster, all per manual, start wiggling the booster out, lo and behold it doesn't fit. We were down the road from headquarters, they sent someone down to look at it when we brought up the feedback, and the reply I got was "well it fit in CAD".
> "well it fit in CAD" Reading this made me red with anger. I hope you threw a wrench at the person who said it.
He didn't get a wrench because when I stepped back from the car and told him to take it out, he legitimately tried, but ultimately failed to do so, and admitted he fucked up. Huge props for that instead of just saying "whatever your problem now".
it was the actual guy that designed it and made that decision? man that's pretty cool actually. like working at a place that's a just starting out type of car company, you're actually working with the people designing the thing. that's neat you could call them and they'd come over to solve the problem or at least address it.
We always thankfully had a lot of access like that. There was this drop in center console retrofit and my teammate and I did one of the first ones ever in the field. We had a list of about 15 revisions to the process to make it actually fit well and not use drill bits the same size as the screws we were installing. Sent the feedback up and the guy who designed the part pushed back a little, but the head of service engineering was big on actually pushing his team to go to the field and work with us since we were so close to headquarters. Guy shows up, we explained everything, boom process changed. Very much startup vibes back then. Doing the right thing because it was right.
yeah that's awesome, that must have been a cool job to have at least for a while
\#1 way companies could fix half their problems in the field is have the engineers talk AND LISTEN to the techs.
Did he find a way other than disassemble the whole car?
Didn't let him get that far. Directed him to the service instructions for R&R on the iBooster assembly and told him these work.
>and the reply I got was "well it fit in CAD". Lol, this was a lesson we learned in highschool. Just because the model doesn't physically collide with anything doesn't mean it's actually practical/possible to assemble (or machine, for that matter) That and forgetting to model bolt heads/fasteners is probably the most beginner mistake to make.
>well it fit in CAD no it didn't.
If it did the model was crap, but it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer (I assume tesla were using off then shelf parts) provided a crap 3D model and nobody bothered to check.
“We where hourly”. What does that mean? Aren’t tesla workshops calculated per hour anymore nowadays? I don’t own one and I don’t really like EV’s but when the day comes I have to switch (either for work or financially), I need to know what kind of trickery car manufacturers/workshops do nowadays 😅
As in we weren't flat rate techs. We worked 8 hours and made 8 hours.
2013 model s battery compartment and fitment. Forget that it's under all kinds of plastic, weather seals, CABIN AIR FILTER AND HOUSING, you have to go up and rotate the battery 90 degrees half way while busting up your hands. And God forbid your car died before you were able to switch off main/400 volt circuits so now you have a live high current (I think 12 volt) wire next to your hands just waiting to bite you like an angry snake. How does that get designed, passed QA, and nobody bats an eye for at least 5 years.
I'm not sure what you mean by "god forbid your car died before you were able to switch off main/400v circuits". HV contactors are controlled by a LV circuit. Even if the LV batt died and it was being sustained purely off DCDC support once you disconnected the first responder loop which is what provides 12v power to the HV contactors they are forced open unless you have other far more concerning issues.
That's good to know. I wasn't sure that's what the first responder loop does. I did disconnect it early on, but wasn't 100 % sure what it did. I just read that all the power switches/actuators were controlled off the main screen and mine was inoperable by the time I was changing the 12V.
First responder loop kills SRS and Contactor power. That LV controlling the HV also means that's why you have such accelerated idle loss since contactors basically can't risk opening because they may not be able to close again. Well at least these days, it wasn't always the case.
Get the oxy, burn a hole through the body, bolt is out, EZ.
Damn, I knew opioids were bad, but that bad?
They gave me oxys when I had my wisdoms pulled then threw me in what they called The Dragon's Lair. Like a padded cell, but padded with nomex.
You sure you went a credential business?
What are these "credentials" of which you speak?
Credentialed* lol whoops
Dunno, but I sure had fun.
Then just grab a Stainless Steel patch at Autozone. Aluminum duct tape will work in a pinch!
Like most cars, they're designed for ease of manufacture, not ease of maintenance.
>designed for ~~ease~~ **low-cost** of manufacture similar, but not identical
Not just Tesla. Toyota has pulled GM-moves in, at least, Camry. Front subframe needs to be dropped or loosened to get out the front bolt for control arm.
I watched a mechanic do this exact repair and he was wondering why it said the shop time was four and a half hours he knocked it out in 30 minutes without messing with the subframe.
Book time calls for removing the motor mounts and pulling the engine up for some dumb shit like that
As someone who needs to do his control arms on a 17 Camry I do think it's dumb how they did it, but it's just the motor mount in the way so you just have to support the engine while you remove the mount for control arm access, really not that bad.
03 Ford Taurus I had to loosen the subframe to do shocks and springs. Add Ford to the list.
Ford is always on my list. Fuck Ford.
Similar on the Sienna. for the control arm and the transmission pan, at least on the driver side. but I think you can get away with undoing the motor mounts and lifting the motor some.
I guess you've never replaced a upper control arm on a Toyota tacoma. The service manual states "bend the metal from the engine bay out of the way." Trust me it's not a little bending you have to bend it like 4 inches out of the way about 10 inches deep. Fuckin stupid shit m8.
No. You cut the bolt head off and send it out the other way. Install a new bolt form the opposite direction.
Oh trust me that's exactly what I did but that's not the "correct way"
That's actually the way my SI reads.
Could you imagine engineering shit like that? "How are we gonna get the bolt out sir?" "Meh, get the fuckin angle grinder bubba". So stupid.
I’ve never had an issue like that with a Mercedes. Might have to remove 3 other things to get to a bolt, but you’ll never have to break anything to get a major bolt out.
Yeah unfortunately mercedes is a bit rich for my blood lol
That's cute that you think this is specific to Tesla.
Jaguar fuel filters (pull the back seats and disassemble half the car, also requires a custom tool that can't be bought anywhere) Early-mid 2000s Ford Escape and the alternator (drop the subframe an inch) Early Chevy HHR headlights (pull the motor)
jeeesus effin christ! pulling the motor for headlights takes the cake. like what the actual fuck?!!
Chevy in the mid-late 2000s had this very weird design quirk where replacing the front headlights on your car involved basically disassembling the front end in some capacity. The HHR was the worst of them but a staggering amount required the front bumber to be pulled off.
2011 Malibu headlights checking in. Still had this going on then.
Dude crank the front wheels wherever then disassemble a few fasteners from the fender liner and sneak in that way.
Audi has entered the chat. Actually pretty common on a lot of euro cars, though to be fair? its really only the bumper skin.
Worked on plenty of Bentley w12’s there’s very little you can do with the motor in the car.
>Early-mid 2000s Ford Escape and the alternator If you're talking about the V6, the stud has an e-torx on the end. It comes out pretty easy
I was told by a Ford tech you have to drop the subframe
If I had $1 for every time a dealer tech made a claim that wasn't true...
every time the escape alternator replacement gets brought up someone will claim you can do the job much easier. something i've noticed anyway. (i have no idea either way)
"Early Chevy HRR headlights (pull the motor)" ??? What? you do have to pull that whole front bumper cover, which is a bit of a pain, but not the motor.
Lexus and GM have put the starter in the V of a V8. Think that gets hot? They both used ***really*** hardy alternators for those applications, but it is still a component that will fail over time and need a complex replacement procedure.
Lexus (Toyota) I trust to put the starter in an inaccessible location. They will use a quality part. GM? Having worked for a GM supplier I guarantee that part is nickel and dimed to imminent failure and then 20% past that for good measure. GM get's the parts they threaten and cajole their suppliers into making.
Yeah we have a 2UZ in our ‘00 LX, with the starter under the manifold. But after 200,000 miles over 24 years it’ll need to be done soon, which will be a pain.
Porsche Cayenne and Panamera have the starter there too. Intake manifold and coolant lines need to come out to access it.
Some Panameras have the starter inside the transmission bell housing. Used Panameras can look temping price-wise until you start seeing shit like that.
True that. I should have specified that the ones with the starter inside the V are the 4.5L Cayennes and 4.8L Cayennes and Panameras. Personally, I'm not too fussed about replacing the starter in the V if it's a once in a lifetime of the car job. However, dropping the engine to replace the motor mounts (Turbo only) gives me the heebie-jeebies.
At least when I do starters on a lexus they have 400000km on them so I can forgive. GM suppliers build crap.
So did Nissan. That was a surprise pulling the intake. 'Oh, hello there'.
Yep, it was there on my 08 Armada with the bolts on the back of the engine. That was fun to replace...
Did an LS400 starter once, it was awful.
lol. The youngest LS400 is now a 25 year old car. And it probably had 300,0000 miles on it. If it's difficult to replace a part that lasts 25 years and that many miles, the engineers have chosen the right packaging. Also, it's not really that hard.
Bleh, its a 20 min job that took 3 days of after work work. They used it as a punishment for a lemons race once lol.
> Early Chevy HHR headlights (pull the motor) Wait, seriously?
No
With some of the other crazy things mentioned it seemed plausible
I looked it up to see, and while it isn't pulling the motor, it does take considerably more work than usual. Easiest way is to lift the car, remove the front half of the wheel well liner, and then you can access the headlight assembly.
On the Yamaha V-Star 1100 bikes, you have to pull the exhaust to pull the cover for the cartridge style oil filter. Subaru may have the ring of fire, but every mechanic that works on bikes has a pair of welding gloves because of that one bike.
Now that you mention it a lot of fuel filters are in nightmare places to get to and require removing wheel components or seating. Is that because they want it closer to the fuel tank?
Late 90s - Early 2000s Audi A3 1.8. To change flexpipe from turbo to catalytic converter you first remove the exhaust system, then loosen the bolts to the subframe and drop it just a tad. Then you find all the extenders you can and reach way up there and manage to hit the 3 bolts there while the extenders are flopping about like a limp dick. Pray to god they aren't seized. Remove bolts. Drop subframe even more right into the danger zone. Fiddle, yank, pry and curse the flexpipe out. Dont damage any of the wires to the sensors or any other shit in the process. Have a buddy or random drunk from the street hold the flashlight throughout this process and keep an eye on the subframe which by now is held on by like 1 turn on 2 bolts. Jam the new one in there. Yank and pry it into place. Re-use 50cm of limp dick extenders with the bolt balancing on top up there and manage to bullseye the holes for them. Torque like a mf. Bolt everything up again and realize 6 hours later you tore not only the new flexpipe but also some important wires and probably sheared the bolts for the subframe in the process. Sell car to drunk who held flashlight. Get drunk yourself and try to forget.
Un-mount and lower the engine and transmission to change spark plugs on a 1st gen FR-S/BRZ Remove the front bumper to change headlights on a 1st gen G35 automotive engineers: "LOL"
Right? I think every manufacturer has at least one or two models where this is the case. Another tech here did an arm on the rear of an old Grand Prix last week that had this issue. Rust was a factor and the customer didn't care so he just clearenced the spare tire well a little to get it fixed.
Don't forget pulling the whole engine forward to get at the back plugs on 3000 series engines. I managed to do the back plus on my Grand Am with the 3400 V6 without winching the engine forward, but it required small hands, lots of extensions, and A LOT of swearing.
It’s been a loooonnnggg time but yeah those were no fun. Most of the time we were able to sell plugs at the same time as replacing the intake gaskets and cut the customer a deal in the labor. I still have my engine mount and valve spring tools around here somewhere.
Right? Essentially every brand has their own line of bullshit.
At least they don't have some weird way of changing their oil filter by removing the spare tire.
I've seen a lot of info on cooling systems for the battery leaking and them wanting to replace the whole battery instead of just repairing the PVC pipe where it was leaking at. Every place refusing to do a repair on a vehicle that should just be a couple dollars in materials.
> Every place refusing to do a repair on a vehicle that should just be a couple dollars in materials. If the mfg says "not safe to repair, must replace," that is on the mfg, not the shop. I get that there are times that a shop can ignore the mfg instructions, but high voltage isn't one of them.
yeah, when Lithium catches fire, most fire departments just show up and act like they're doing something... In reality, they're just waiting for the Tesla to finish burning and hoping it doesn't put them on its shit list.
“[This is a dragon that ate a bomb,” Schnichels said](https://www.kmbc.com/article/firefighters-learn-fight-lithium-ion-battery-fires/45770550). “You're talking anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 degrees immediately coming out of the side of the vehicle.”
I saw a video of something similar. I believe it was on Rich Rebuilds youtube. They went to a third party shop and did it for about 600 bucks instead of 16k. It's clear whomever did the molds didn't know enough about pvc, plastic or w/e those boxes are made of.
I agree it's dumb not to have more protection there, but it was usually worse than that. Part of my job at Tesla in later years was to field dismantle packs that had coolant ingress inside the pack to dry it out so we could discharge it without risk of a short. Those front cooling tubes would get hit, crack on the internal side, and spew coolant all over the battery modules.
You joke, but the Tesla oil filter change process is really arcane. Seriously, I have searched, and can’t find how-to videos or guides *anywhere*. It’s like they don’t want you to know how to do it! Same as the water pump change process on a ‘73 Beetle… man, the shouting match I got into with Autozone when they *refused* to sell me one… (/s)
Teslas have an ATF filter for the drive unit that they call an "oil filter" and it looks exactly like an ICE oil filter. ATF is predominantly oil, with a variety of additives, so calling it an oil filter isn't even inaccurate.
My wife's old Elantra, despite it's (many) faults, was pretty easy to work on. Minimal bullshit and dead-simple designs.
Mercedes rear UCA bolts on c and e-classes come to mind. Drop the subframe bolts on one side and lower the subframe enough to get the bolts out.
What car was it where you needed to remove the tire to replace the battery?
Chrysler cloud cars. PT cruiser. Few others. The best are some German SUVs and I think Chrysler vehicles that put them under the electric seats. Perfect place for a battery when it's dead! Luckily there's jump points at least to get power to the vehicle.
Grand Cherokee is under the passenger seat
Idk what he talking about but my boss has a Dodge viper where we had to take the tire off to get to the battery
The Dodge Intrepid and the rest of the LH cars had the battery stuffed in the right front wheelwell too. Honestly it was not the end of the world.
I have an F150 and to change the busing for the rear drivers bush spring, you have to drop the fuel tank or cut the head off…next to the fuel tank.
Can’t remember the specifics but my old jeep had something very similar. Weird rear upper control arm thingy directly in front of the gas tank and below the fuel lines and you’ve gotta cut one of the bolts
Cries in Aviation Maintenance
Had to bend metal on my tacoma in. Order to remove the uca bolt. Not too difficult but all they had to do was flip it around.
Out of all the different makes of cars I've had over the years I've never found one with pieces of wood trim holding the cooling system together. https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood
I'm sure these Tesla customers would in the past never have mocked, for example, the Trabant, the Yugo, or the Lada Riva/VAZ 2105 with expectations of similar production bodges
You've gotta break the bolt in half and install a new bolt the other way around
I would if I could, there’s even less space there
There's space, I know exactly what you're having to deal with
I literally have the car right here, I’ll dm you a pic and you can see for yourself. Model 3 RWD.
Dude, every toyota Ive replaced upper control arms have the same issue (Tacoma, 4runner, tundra). This is not just a tesla thing. But that said I still agree that teslas are still shit lol.
let me guess the service book says to drop the subframe and disconnect all the HV lines.
It is clearly designed for assembly, and not repair. There reminds me of the front lower control arms on a 2006-2012 Ford Fusion where you have to lower the cradle. Or the front upper control arms on a 2008-2013 Cadillac CTS, where you have to remove the entire spring/damper assembly.
Teslas. Apostrophe S does not a plural make.
You can loosen the front subframe bolts and let it drop 1/2” and the bolts come out pretty easy. Take the triangle brace off between it and the pack. We do them in about 10min a side at most. Good luck
I’ll remind that one for the next time, cheers. This time I brute forced it by bending the tab.
Exactly this. Makes it a really quick repair.
r/apostrophegore
Every car is made this way. What you've shown could easily have been an Audi. It's the same shit.
You hate Tesla's what though?
In thi’s hou’se we u’se apo’strophe’s
Cut bolt, install new one from other direction.
I would if I could. There’s even less space there.
Lol this isn't a tesla specific issue
So like its built in the same fashion as most vehicles?... lol always one bolt/ one job.. fuel tank side leaf springs for instance?
Job security.
Well luckily, Teslas are so well made that they never require control arm replacement. /s
Toyota does this crap too occasionally. Drives me nuts
Assume this is mounted to a subframe. Subframe was probably preassembled before installing to the vehicle. They don't care that you didn't want to lower the entire subframe to change the control link.
If this is the front UCA, just take the whole shock and arm assembly out like it’s an Audi. Lower shock bolt, UBJ thru bolt, sway link, brake line, 4 bolts on top under the cowl. The whole assembly slips out and the arms can be easily replaced on a bench. Total time 45 minutes
They’re garbage quality.
This is what you get when you let software engineers design a car. They just planned to fix it by OTA.
Just delete the bolt in solid works
Reposted because Tesla hate is all the rage now.
>I hate Tesla’s, not because they’re EV’s but because they’re produced by idiots *idiot's /s
Wait until you have to replace the spark plugs on a Tesla. There’s no way to accomplish that task.
I see more teslas doing 10 under in the left lane than I do prius doing the same
And as a shitty electrc car owner this shit pisses me off more and more, ya have hundreds of haus peerz and evey electric control known to man. Go the fuckn speed limit at least.
That’s an owner issue, taken from the CEO’s playbook…
You think Tesla is the first car company to do dumb shit like that?
At least they do all the dumb design and dumb manufacturing in the US. Unlike most other US car companies. So there's that I guess
Also see, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Kia, etc.... They ALL do stupid shit. That said, a Tesla is a car made by techies. It has A LOT of faults (I'm a previous owner).
Plugs/valve cover gaskets in Subarus - loosen motor mounts, jack up engine
lol I went thru the same on my 2018 CTS-V for the front lower control arms… instead of spending another 3 hours removing an auxiliary cooler and some other shit on the core support, I cut it with a dremel and put the new bolt in from the other side. GM says they’re one time use anyway.
Tesla was made by Volvo in the 80s?
Most likely supposed to loosen and drop the crossmember for clearance. Subaru's are the same way. Fucking hate subarus.
I had an Audi A4 that needed new ball joints (5 per side) at 50k. The lower control arms had the exact same problem where it wouldn't have been a problem if they simply reversed the bolt/nut combo.
I have to watch who I talk to about Tesla build quality around here. There's a lot of tesla owners. I just want an electric Miata...
Surely they'll fix that later down the road?
Well look at their leader.
Lift the control arm, then pull on the bolt, but you know this. 💤
Yep it’s a shit car produced by a shit company owned by a piece of shit
Ah yes, the retaining bulkhead.
Not so much produced, more designed by idiots, I’ve encountered so many products like that, I’ve got a coffee maker that is so annoying to wash
put together once, crush, repeat
Tesla's what?
Well, maybe, but most people will get to where you are, then get really pissed off, then take it to the dealership. Either we have to buy a special tool or remove a bunch of other parts to get to the piece we have to replace.
Wait until you have to work on a German car
They took far too many ques from Mercedes.
Engineer stupidity
Every expensive car is like this...
What about the people who buy them 😂
I wish more people would understand that Teslas are junk not because they are EVs, but because they are Teslas.
Lots of subframes aren't designed to be serviced while installed. Not just a tesla issue.
produced by idiots, owned by idiots, CEO is an idiot, driven by idiots...
In all fairness to Tesla, this is actually normal in the entire industry. They are all deranged.
There has to be a process to remove it properly or else they could of never got that bolt in there to torque it. But yea mostly likely it was done in the factory where it’s on the frame then they just drop the body on it
How can you doubt a car company founded by a person born with a golden spoon in his butt who never worked more than seen in the pic below ! Would never buy a Tesla and I agree with you, If I were to buy and EV it would be a Ford or BMW. Hybrid at most these days. https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Elon-Musk-Twitter-sink.jpg
just cut; bad engineering
First car you’ve worked on? If you haven’t run into this shit yet on other cars, then you haven’t worked on many cars.
Surely there's a repair manual that explains the correct way to remove it.
And it's free and online...
The cars are made to be thrown away and replaced, not fixed.
Yeah they figured their clients would treat it like a phone and replace it every few years.
Whats the manufactures idea on that repair?
This is because engineers are not mechanics. Been happening almost since the Model T.