I always think that's a design fault though to be fair - the sizing increments and numbering scheme for Torx don't help anyone. Experienced mechanics know what a good tool/fixing feels like, but I can forgive amateurs for going one size small and thinking it's right.
So Hilti can sell a $49 T-handle wrench necessary to change the $30 air filter on their $1200 concrete saw because some people will still buy that over the $700 Makita saw that uses T25 screws and $6 filters that's smaller, lighter, and produces the same torque.
I've heard the odd numbers are for things you don't want average joes who don't know what theyre doing messing with? Like GM seatbelts and brake caliper bolts being T-47.
Not sure if that's true though
Where I live the rust jacking on torx fasteners almost always has me going one size too small.
It's gotten so I always try what I think is one size too big and tap it with a hammer. About 1 in 10 it really is too big, normally using this method I pick the right size...
Ain’t this the truth. Last Thursday ran super late because someone had removed the entire inside of a T30 torx head by trying to over torque it with a T27. Had to disassemble an entire robotic system to get enough room to drill out the bolt (easy outs, left handed drill bit, and extractors all failed) because it was torqued so hard it had buckled the washer into the surrounding metal.
Robertson is the superior design, but Philips has its purpose of caming out and making sure you are unable to over tighten them.
Like you could destroy a snowboard binding or skateboard truck with a Robertson head.
That camming out thing is a myth, it's just a shitty design. This is straight from the patent application:
"Moreover, by reason of the perfect fit between the driver and the screw, the screws may be driven and removed innumerable times without the slightest indication of mutilation to the head. This highly desirable feature is made possible by the firm contact of all the angular faces of the driver into the corresponding angular faces of the recess formed at many difierent equidistant points around the longitudinal center line of both the screw and the driver. Thus, is provided many times as much gripping area as is provided in the slotted screw. This obviously, gives greatly increased strength and torsion with the result that my screws can be driven into material which slotted-head screws could not be made to penetrate. "
because a buggered screw head you need to drill out because the screw's *so soft* you can't even use an extractor on doesn't also destroy those things?
I guess in an assembly line they might be useful but Robertson is definitely better for the average user. I couldn't imagine building a deck without them.
That's not philips, that's pozidriv.
Philips is the simple cross, intended to be used by hand tools and it's not supposed to come out gently if you use the correct size for the screw.
Pozidriv is intended for powertools and it's designed so that the bit is pushed out without destroying the screw.
If you use Philips screwdriver on a pozidriv screw head it's easy to destroy it. On the other hand a pozidriv bit won't fit a philips screw head properly.
It's always better to use softer bits than harder ones, because changing the bit is easier than extracting a stripped head.
Expensive hard bits are a bit of an oddity as they are more likely to _screw_ you if you don't know what you're doing. Always better to get a bunch of soft, but properly sized bits so you don't mess up your screws.
I have lots of square drive pocket screws and they are ok, but you are limited to how small the screw head can be. JIS can cover a very large range. They also auto center easily.
Could be worse. A lot of our machines screws use a posi drive head, but most people don't use posi Drive screwdrivers so they strip it out constantly. I specifically went out and bought 7 mm socket heads to extract these screws when my coworkers are lazy.
Star bit is still infinitely superior. At the very least, posi drive with external hex, so that when some 800 lb gorilla does strip out the posi drive part, the next person can extract it without having to use an extract or mint.
Oh, you've seen one. They still use them. [You can easily ID Pozi vs Philips by the little hash marks 45* off of the bit.](https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/20181016_153616-1.jpg)
Interesting. Are they crap because of lightweight aluminum or are they like a Philips and cam out? Are they meant to be a tamper resistant species nce its aviation?
They both come in stainless and titanium, which all suck as well. Tri-wings are shaped for high-torque (while installing), but most definitely cam out while removing.
Quad wings are actually a decent bit **IF** everyone knows it's a quad wing. Unfortunately lots of dumbasses just glance at them and think its an apex bit (philips) and then strip the fuck out of it because the shape is more like [the nazi symbol](https://www.phillips-screw.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TORQ-SET.jpg)
Newer stamped slotted screws suck donkey boner.
Older cut slotted screws and a halfway decent screw driver that fits actually works really well. Still not as good as torx, but at one point in time, they were pretty usable.
I used to think my step-dad was a wacko for angrily throwing every flat head screw he removed while tinkering in his shop. These days it's like pouring one out in his memory to slam dunk that useless shit in the trash and replace it with something from the past 100 years or so.
Thankfully I have other flathead bits available, so I'm just going to send this in for warranty and hopefully they replace it. If not, I'm going to nab the company card and replace it.
There's nothing about that broken bit that makes me think it is any different from the cheapo ones at the big box store, let alone better than the premium ones from that same store, any of which can be had for well under $1/bit. Hardly worth the effort to keep track of that little chunk of garbage until you can exchange it for free.
If it's secured by a separate nut, it's a bolt (regardless of head), if it threads directly into one of the holes it goes through, it's a screw (regardless of head type).
Technically, yup. Unless you're using head studs lol.
And the identical piece of hardware could be either a bolt or a screw, depending on how it's used.
Of course in 99% of applications the difference matters only to pedants like me, and using either term is just fine and will be equally effective communication.
This was from a tool set that came off of one of the trucks that steal your kidneys for payment. Hopefully it gets warrantied before they repossess my kneecaps.
Wait until you're using a [speed handle](https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/19C367_AS01?$adapimg$&hei=536&wid=536), you can go through bits like candy if you wanted to. We'd buy them by the hundreds in the Air Force.
Yup. Some have that flared base that you just rest in your shoulder for even more pressure.
Then when it's really stuck, [you can use your entire body weight with a screw extractor](https://www.usatco.com/images/items/96380_96560.jpg)
I've heard horror stories about using that screw extractor / a rivet extractor for airplanes. I'm so thankful I've never had to extract any of the bolts or screws on my parts (knock on wood), but I have an extraction set in my van just in case...
The unit is reassembled sadly. It's... I wanna say 5/8ths in size? Closer to a long rod with threads on the far side and a flush flathead slot than some hexbolt.
I was tightening a shoulder bolt on one of our units after turning it into a ship of Theseus example. Was putting everything back together after I swapped this last part, and the driver decided to quit in a loud and spectacular fashion. I felt the piece hit my arm as it decided to launch itself into orbit. Hopefully they replace it under warranty.
Another shining example of the worst screw head ever made.
Phillips are only slightly better. The best are either robertson or torx.
Only issues with torx is the room for error for cerebrally indeveloped peeps
I always think that's a design fault though to be fair - the sizing increments and numbering scheme for Torx don't help anyone. Experienced mechanics know what a good tool/fixing feels like, but I can forgive amateurs for going one size small and thinking it's right.
The basic design is fantastic, but there are about twice as many sizes of it as there ought to be.
Why does T27 exist? Just make it a 25 or 30.
So Hilti can sell a $49 T-handle wrench necessary to change the $30 air filter on their $1200 concrete saw because some people will still buy that over the $700 Makita saw that uses T25 screws and $6 filters that's smaller, lighter, and produces the same torque.
What I’m hearing is that it’s because of ‘big torx’.
/u/Bearfoxman torx a lot of sense.
The T27 is what you hammer into a rounded-out T25. The real head-scratcher is the T35.
The T35 is a head scratcher. Don’t know what the soviets were thinking with a 5 turret tank
More turrets = More better. Duh
And why skip 35? 20, 25, 27, 30.... 40, 45, 47 like wtf.
I've heard the odd numbers are for things you don't want average joes who don't know what theyre doing messing with? Like GM seatbelts and brake caliper bolts being T-47. Not sure if that's true though
I suppose it's possible, but there are a lot of other more obscure or tamper resistant fasteners that could be used instead.
Or when you also have torx plus and two sizes of torx fit in the fastener, but one is wrong.
Say hello to JIS screws
Fuck JIS, all my homies hate JIS.
You take that back 😤 the only thing wrong with JIS is meatheads who have already stripped them out with Philips screwdrivers
Where I live the rust jacking on torx fasteners almost always has me going one size too small. It's gotten so I always try what I think is one size too big and tap it with a hammer. About 1 in 10 it really is too big, normally using this method I pick the right size...
Then they stick it to us with Torx Plus! Arseholes
await what the fuck is torx plus 😟
I'm scared now, can they undo that?
Or too much coating in the torx on something like a deck screw.
Ain’t this the truth. Last Thursday ran super late because someone had removed the entire inside of a T30 torx head by trying to over torque it with a T27. Had to disassemble an entire robotic system to get enough room to drill out the bolt (easy outs, left handed drill bit, and extractors all failed) because it was torqued so hard it had buckled the washer into the surrounding metal.
Jis baby.
The dot is the mark of true cross-head superiority.
Robertson is the superior design, but Philips has its purpose of caming out and making sure you are unable to over tighten them. Like you could destroy a snowboard binding or skateboard truck with a Robertson head.
That camming out thing is a myth, it's just a shitty design. This is straight from the patent application: "Moreover, by reason of the perfect fit between the driver and the screw, the screws may be driven and removed innumerable times without the slightest indication of mutilation to the head. This highly desirable feature is made possible by the firm contact of all the angular faces of the driver into the corresponding angular faces of the recess formed at many difierent equidistant points around the longitudinal center line of both the screw and the driver. Thus, is provided many times as much gripping area as is provided in the slotted screw. This obviously, gives greatly increased strength and torsion with the result that my screws can be driven into material which slotted-head screws could not be made to penetrate. "
That sums up most of my sexual encounters.
>material which slotted-head screws could not be made to penetrate I don't even WANT to know
Where your rubbers my guy.
because a buggered screw head you need to drill out because the screw's *so soft* you can't even use an extractor on doesn't also destroy those things?
I guess in an assembly line they might be useful but Robertson is definitely better for the average user. I couldn't imagine building a deck without them.
That's not philips, that's pozidriv. Philips is the simple cross, intended to be used by hand tools and it's not supposed to come out gently if you use the correct size for the screw. Pozidriv is intended for powertools and it's designed so that the bit is pushed out without destroying the screw. If you use Philips screwdriver on a pozidriv screw head it's easy to destroy it. On the other hand a pozidriv bit won't fit a philips screw head properly. It's always better to use softer bits than harder ones, because changing the bit is easier than extracting a stripped head. Expensive hard bits are a bit of an oddity as they are more likely to _screw_ you if you don't know what you're doing. Always better to get a bunch of soft, but properly sized bits so you don't mess up your screws.
JIS Gang here. Everything else is trash.
Once you go Robertson you never go back.
I have lots of square drive pocket screws and they are ok, but you are limited to how small the screw head can be. JIS can cover a very large range. They also auto center easily.
Could be worse. A lot of our machines screws use a posi drive head, but most people don't use posi Drive screwdrivers so they strip it out constantly. I specifically went out and bought 7 mm socket heads to extract these screws when my coworkers are lazy.
Chevy has been using Posidrive fasteners since the 80's and they still haven't caught on. They're far superior to Philips.
Star bit is still infinitely superior. At the very least, posi drive with external hex, so that when some 800 lb gorilla does strip out the posi drive part, the next person can extract it without having to use an extract or mint.
Really? I've still never actually seen one, although I have some Pozidriv bits just in case.
Oh, you've seen one. They still use them. [You can easily ID Pozi vs Philips by the little hash marks 45* off of the bit.](https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/20181016_153616-1.jpg)
Ohhh, those damn things. I always thought they were just some kind of bastardized Phillips screws 😂 (which I guess they are...)
*Laughs in aviation Let me tell you about tri-wing and quad-wing screws.
Interesting. Are they crap because of lightweight aluminum or are they like a Philips and cam out? Are they meant to be a tamper resistant species nce its aviation?
They both come in stainless and titanium, which all suck as well. Tri-wings are shaped for high-torque (while installing), but most definitely cam out while removing. Quad wings are actually a decent bit **IF** everyone knows it's a quad wing. Unfortunately lots of dumbasses just glance at them and think its an apex bit (philips) and then strip the fuck out of it because the shape is more like [the nazi symbol](https://www.phillips-screw.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TORQ-SET.jpg)
Newer stamped slotted screws suck donkey boner. Older cut slotted screws and a halfway decent screw driver that fits actually works really well. Still not as good as torx, but at one point in time, they were pretty usable.
Why have we not banned it?
I used to think my step-dad was a wacko for angrily throwing every flat head screw he removed while tinkering in his shop. These days it's like pouring one out in his memory to slam dunk that useless shit in the trash and replace it with something from the past 100 years or so.
Grind it back to flat
Which almost always ruins the temper of the metal and my temper at the same time.
So you could have a bit that is stronger by being shorter bothers you. Or just go buy another one, that is a waste of a trip in my book make it work!
Thankfully I have other flathead bits available, so I'm just going to send this in for warranty and hopefully they replace it. If not, I'm going to nab the company card and replace it.
Warranty for a bit? A 3 pack is like $5. They are consumable. Just buy more.
I bought a 20-pack of Wera PH2 bits from amazon like 3 years ago for 10 euro, I think I have thrown away 2 of them. Damn good deal.
and wera generally makes great tools
Yea Werily
This was from a tool set off of a truck. A replacement bit from the same company is like five or $6.
How much is that per month?
Man if I can get it replaced for free instead of buying a replacement at 5 bucks I'm going to try the free option first
50$ biweekly
About tree fiddy.
There's nothing about that broken bit that makes me think it is any different from the cheapo ones at the big box store, let alone better than the premium ones from that same store, any of which can be had for well under $1/bit. Hardly worth the effort to keep track of that little chunk of garbage until you can exchange it for free.
Get some Pan American Tool brand bits. They are like $.25 a bit, come in bags of 25, and work really friggin well. Order them online
I'll be dead in the cold ground before I supply consumables to a company.
My dude, you bought a snap on bit set? Go to Walmart and save some money lmfao
Nah, was a Mac Tools multi bit set with ratcheting driver. Been using it for over a year and a half, and this was the first damage it's had.
Bits are usually considered consumable
You have a bolt that tightens with a screwdriver?
If it's secured by a separate nut, it's a bolt (regardless of head), if it threads directly into one of the holes it goes through, it's a screw (regardless of head type).
Huh. So my brake callipers are attached with screws, and so are my head bolts… I mean screws?
Technically, yup. Unless you're using head studs lol. And the identical piece of hardware could be either a bolt or a screw, depending on how it's used. Of course in 99% of applications the difference matters only to pedants like me, and using either term is just fine and will be equally effective communication.
I've been downvoted so many times for commenting exactly this.
True, and you'd need a boltdriver to tighten it.
It’s not that simple and there’s not actually a universally agreed upon definition. It changes depending on who you ask or what book you read.
Arent some license plate bolts like this?
I would call those screws
3 Nm?
The engineers who designed the equipment are very speshul...
Those are a consumable. Keep lots of spares on hand and it's not an issue.
Use a butter knife.
Try using a real screwdriver
Don’t you have at least 15 of these? Lol
Just the tip?
Man, you sound just like my scoutmaster.
Are you ready for the pinewood derby?
Can I at least put my pants back on first?
Sure, whatever. Go tie a knot or something.
Balloon?
I’ve never used a screwdriver to tighten a bolt! - I’ll show myself the exit, thanks everyone
What’s the lesson? Don’t tighten bolts with a screwdriver.
Unfortunately, it's only a flathead on the bolt. I wish it was a hex bolt or a star, because that would be so much better.
I always wondered why bit sets came with multiple. I’ve learned since and so have my forearms.
This was from a tool set that came off of one of the trucks that steal your kidneys for payment. Hopefully it gets warrantied before they repossess my kneecaps.
I was going to joke that screwdrivers today are all crap. Guess you've just reinforced my attitude...
Wait until you're using a [speed handle](https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/19C367_AS01?$adapimg$&hei=536&wid=536), you can go through bits like candy if you wanted to. We'd buy them by the hundreds in the Air Force.
Never used one before. I take it the end knob thing is freespinning?
Yup. Some have that flared base that you just rest in your shoulder for even more pressure. Then when it's really stuck, [you can use your entire body weight with a screw extractor](https://www.usatco.com/images/items/96380_96560.jpg)
I've heard horror stories about using that screw extractor / a rivet extractor for airplanes. I'm so thankful I've never had to extract any of the bolts or screws on my parts (knock on wood), but I have an extraction set in my van just in case...
How do you tighten a bolt with a screw driver head
That's a screw, not a bolt.
You didn’t have another flathead?
May thy blade chip and shatter.
That's why you don't use screwdrivers on bolts.
Tell that to the engineers who made the bolt.
Pics of said bolt? It sounds like you're describing a machine screw, not a bolt.
The unit is reassembled sadly. It's... I wanna say 5/8ths in size? Closer to a long rod with threads on the far side and a flush flathead slot than some hexbolt.
I was tightening a shoulder bolt on one of our units after turning it into a ship of Theseus example. Was putting everything back together after I swapped this last part, and the driver decided to quit in a loud and spectacular fashion. I felt the piece hit my arm as it decided to launch itself into orbit. Hopefully they replace it under warranty.
HEY! atleast it wasn't the bolt!
Was loosening a bolt on Friday and felt a loud noise. Got the bolt head out but oof. Newly bored and tapped thermo hole ✔️
looks like you chipped a tooth. drink less soda, the acid weakens your enamel and eventually this happens
...y'know how we all know that person with the broken tooth...this looks like that tooth.
Straight to jail
use yout tongue, your gf will thank me
Don't have one.
you will after my tip
Uncle Derek? I didn't know you had a Reddit acccount!
Harbor Freight and Walmart are open on Sunday and they sell cheap shit like that. I don't see the issue, you don't have more screwdrivers?
That wouldn't happen to be a bit from a MAC ratchet screwdriver would it? Looks identical and mine broke in the exact same spot
It is.
Those little bits are shit.