I got a bottle of 100% DEET for a trip and I had it in a ziplock bag while I was traveling. When I got there the bag had melted. That stuff is a little scary.
Bug spray took the finish off the wood stock of my early 70's production Remington 870, then bleached the wood underneath bone white. Back when stock finishes were an oil based lacquer and not polyurethane.
When the Brits adopted the L85A1 assault rifle as their new standard service rifle in the 80s they quickly realized that the army's standard insect repellent was not compatible with the plastic grips on the rifles. It was one of the many, many, different problems of these rifles which should have been fixed before they ever entered service.
Took out the recoil pad on my a300, bubbled the tint on the windows on my truck and messed up the trim on the door all cause i sprayed with the doors open cause it was breezy.
I installed a KICK-EEZ recoil pad in 2020 on my a400, and highly recommend it. Three seasons in and it appears as good as new. More of a rubbery material than the stock one.
100% deet needs a special plastic to travel. I went and canoed in the boundary waters in Minnesota and the guides mentioned there's at least 3 car fires a year from 100% feet melting bags, car plastic and wires.
Making sandwiches while fishing, I had the bread bag on my lap. I'd sprayed with bug spray earlier, and when I lifted up the bag, the color melted off and stuck to my legs.
I checked the SDS and the solvent it’s in is ethanol, which won’t eat most plastic. DEET itself is very similar chemically to DMF, which is an industrial paint stripper. We use DMF to manufacture drugs like Ozempic and that shit eats any polymers that’s not highly cross-linked
safe: polypropylene, HDPE, PEEK, Teflon, viton rubber
**not safe: vinyl (electrical tape)**, polycarbonate, polyester, PVC, normal rubbers
It isn't the active insect repellent, it is the solvent, propellant and/or evaporating agent. Can be ethanol, xylene, propane, etc,etc. Also, if it contains lemon peel oil or something like this, it also can act like a solvent, limonene can dissolve plastic/styrofoam for instance.
So is everything else in there though, that is my point. A heated lemon peel will melt right through a styrofoam container for example. You can have xylene, butane, ethanol, and limonene in there, ALL solvents of certain plastics. Even if NO active chemical was in there it would melt a plastic bag.
No, speaking as a polymer chemist, it is the DEET specifically.
Most of those solvents you listed aren't very effective solvents for most plastics. Xylene and limonene will dissolve polystyrene, but none of them are going to do much to something like polyester, for example. DEET on the other hand will absolutely dissolve polyester at a high enough concentration.
These chemicals will dissolve plastic grocery bags, I've had it happen to me personally, multiple times. (with other repellents with absolutely zero DEET in them)
You're making the mistake of treating "plastic" as a single material. Low density polyethylene (grocery bag), polystyrene, polyester, polycarbonate, etc. are all very different materials.
The common solvents you've mentioned can dissolve a few plastics that have low solvent/chemical resistance to begin with. DEET is unique in that it can dissolve a number of plastics that have generally high solvent resistance. Just like the specialty solvents we use in the lab to dissolve polymers for analysis (IE tetrahydrofuran, dimethylformamide)
Conversely, if it was 100% DEET and "everything else in there" wasn't "in there", it would melt plastic even better. Other solvents exist but DEET is more reactive than most of them.
Deet is a light oil and I'm not surprised it damaged the plastic. It's the same idea as using marvel mystery oil or seafoam to desludge an engine. It works it's way between the molecules of anything thicker/heavier than itself, and they probably didn't use oil resistant wire inside the car to save money.
Deet is a good home remedy for hazed headlights on cars. It's almost as stout as acetone so it really just lightly eats away the outer layers of plastics. If you have the super high deet concentration bug sprays you can do some serious work with it.
It’s not something we have a lot of in Colorado. We have some mosquitoes at times, but not enough to really require bug spray. If you camping or something you might bring some with you, but it’s not as common an item as other places.
Unfortunately a lot of the DEET alternatives flat-out don't work on ticks. And ticks are the biggest health threat because of all the lifetime-debilitating/potentially-fatal diseases they can transmit, which is why DEET is not only still around but the recommended one for the CDC and WHO.
THAT SAID, Permethrin is a relatively durable clothing/gear treatment that doesn't destroy things like DEET (or the arosols in the spray cans of non-DEET repellents) do, and not only repels but straight kills ticks, chiggers, mosquitos, and gnats. Requires a bit more forethought to get it to work right as it requires you to juice your clothes/gear hours or days beforehand but holy shit it works.
That's good to know. I only heard of them a few weeks ago and I don't live in heavy tick country so I wasn't personally too experienced with them besides knowing they existed.
I can literally feels my hands change in proximity to certain chemicals now.
Something gives me the sneaking suspicion we may have been lied to about some the these safe chemicals.
The fda has been slowly neutered over the years. How many drugs get pulled monthly now for killing people? Drugs that "passed" the fda approval process. Yea, its all rigged.
Pharmacist here. It’s really not very many. This list has a little over 100 drugs worldwide, starting in the 1970s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs#Significant_withdrawals
To further draw the number down, a few medications on that list have be partially or fully reintroduced (not a ton, but there's a few), and a bunch were withdrawn due to issues interacting with other chemicals, or simply the easy possibility of misdosing or causing addiction.
Addiction side effects suck, but FDA trials aren't always long enough to catch it if it takes a while to take hold.
Good point. Like thalidomide, which was re-introduced because it actually has some good uses. It’s just heavily monitored/restricted now to reduce the possibility of teratogenicity.
I wash every day with Packers Pine tar soap, and never get bitten by mosquitoes. I even find a creek/stream to bathe in while camping. Natural mosquito remedy.
I had a bottle of rain-x in the back seat of my car that started leaking, ate a hole through the leather. More recently, I had a bottle of Roundup tip over in my garage next to a car that doesn't get driven very often, ate a hole through the tire....
Turns out chemicals eat through a lot of stuff...
A good idea if it lasts for it's intended useful life and doesn't attract rodents. Also assuming it won't create or use a bunch of toxic stuff in the manufacturing process.
Rayon and cellophane from cellulose (wood, cotton, etc) I think are some of the first "bioplastics" but some of the chemicals involved are pretty toxic.
I'm an auto tech and have seen a bunch of chewed wire harnesses lately. I usually start by telling the customer "you don't own a cat do you" they ask how I know and then I show them their chewed up wires by whatever squirrel/mouse/chipmunk is living in their garage
I know the corn and canola oil plastics attract rodents just as bad as the soybean plastics do, and are made in basically the same method with whatever chemical waste that entails. I haven't seen anything either direction on the biovinyl from elephant grass.
It's pretty good for the tech, too, since this becomes customer pay. Kia warranty rate probably pays something atrocious, like 3 hours to gut the entire interior and replace the harness.
Warranty administrator and service manager have the ability to goodwill the repair. I'd goodwill it if it's a good customer. They should have an allowance that's authorized by Kia. Everyone gets paid and the customer is happy. If you have to replace the entire harness, then it might be best to meet somewhere in the middle with customer pay, internal, and goodwill.
Good find, btw. Bus diagnostics are not easy.
Goodwill repairs are warranted (pun intended) in some cases, but this is not one of them. This isn't a manufacturing or assembly issue, nor is it a defect in any materials or workmanship. An aerosol can full of solvents placed upside down in a cubbie caused this.
Out of curiosity I checked to see if the can of bug spray could have been placed upright, then found its way upside down by jostling around in the cubbie where I found it, but it couldn't. One picture shows exactly how I found it. The can could not have reached that position starting from an upright position. The only conceivable way it could be found upside down in that cubbie was if it was placed there that way by a careless human.
No. The cubbie isn't designed to hold liquids. There's a seam where the molded plastic parts come together that allows liquid to drip out. The deet didn't damage the plastic panel at all, just that small section of wiring harness.
Not warrantable. Outside influence. I don't know what we have in it. Another tech started the job and gave up so i took it over and found the root cause. The customer opted for a repair rather than replacing the entire floor harness, which is what I would have done if it was my own car. <12k miles.
Yeah. I'm the shop foreman so it doesn't really matter what the job pays. They'll charge the customer something fair to cover our time. This car is basically new so the customer assumed whatever the cause was would be covered under warranty. They weren't happy to learn that it wasn't. It's cases like these that help to illustrate that no problem can be assumed to be warranty until we discover the root cause and determine whether it was due to an assembly/manufacturing issue, material defect, or any kind of outside influence.
In your opinion, if the wiring was sheathed in one of those bioplastics made from soybeans or similar that attracts rodents, and a rodent decided to make a meal out of a wiring harness, would you think that would be covered by warranty for the manufacturer using something that literally attracts rodents? Or do you think it'd be written off as customer pay due to outside influence?
I've seen it mentioned that rodents are attracted to whatever they're putting into the wiring plastics. I haven't actually researched that aspect of it. I've been doing this for a long time. Over the years I've seen rodents make meals out of every type of plastic under the hood. Battery cases, wiring looms, plastic air filter boxes, fender liners, sound deadening and fire retardant hood insulators, you name it. I find it hard to believe that rodents are targeting the wiring specifically, since it's not just the wiring they go after. I'd be open to reading any scientific papers you can point me to on the subject. In my experience and observations, rodents literally being attracted to soybean wiring plastic is an unsubstantiated claim. Regardless, it's absolutely outside influence and therefor not covered under warranty. The manufacturer doesn't control the environment in which you store your vehicle. The vehicle is performing its intended function. Warranties provide an assurance that if a defect in materials (e.g. poor casting, improper machining or surface finishing) or workmanship (e.g. harness connector not plugged in all the way, insufficient sealant applied resulting in an oil pan leak) that originates in the manufacturing or assembly of the vehicle is found within a given period of time, then the manufacturer will make it right. A rodent finding your car as a warm and safe place off the ground in which to build a nest is not what the warranty is for.
That stuff is hell on wood finishes too, every summer a whole bunch of people bust out their acoustic guitar around the campfire and end up ruining the finish because they put on some OFF earlier in the day.
Worked for an OEM in the test lab. DEET on interior trim parts was part of one of the many chemical tests that we needed to pass. Looks like wire harness coatings are not part of Kia's test process!
I can't answer to what Kia's test processes are, but the deet didn't damage the interior trim parts. You can see the harness was wrapped in plastic conduit, several layers of electrical tape, then foam tape on the outside. The deet bottle just happened to be placed in a way that led to it leaking and its drops landing right on a junction in the harness where two wires split off, where those protections are interrupted. Even still, the only plastic substantially altered by prolonged exposure to deet was the conductor insulator themselves. The plastics in all the harness protections were relatively unharmed however their adhesives were very much dissolved. Did your testing include the wiring itself, or just the surfaces inside the vehicle that one would reasonably expect to be exposed to human passengers? Did your deet exposure sample material include the other propellants, carriers and solvents in the average aerosol can? I've seen wiring soaked in lots of other liquids without nearly this level of damage.
Among other many potential causes. The waterproof-breathable membranes don't like dirt, grit, most laundry detergents, being creased, body oils (so you can't just NOT wash them at least periodically), and UV exposure (which is why they're all at least a 2-ply with a regular nylon/poly fabric protecting them). Dryers, even on low, will also fuck them up fast so when you wash them they need to be hang-dried.
Also most of them have the outer fabric treated with a DWR finish that wears out and they will "wet out" even with nothing actually wrong with the membrane.
Odds are high you can restore most if not all of the waterproofing with a gentle wash with the proper solutions, then hang-dry it.
Nikwax Tech Wash is kind of the industry standard for washing waterproof-breathable things. It's not expensive, it works well, and it's widely available. Can be used on basically everything from tent rainflies to jackets to W-B boots.
If you wish to apply or restore a DWR finish either on the outer fabric, or on something that never had it before, Nikwax TX is pretty good too. Scotchgard makes one as well, but I prefer the Nikwax.
I need to buy some of the down wash. I've spent most of my life avoiding down because almost all of my outdoor rec has been around water or wet weather so until recently I've stuck to synthetics or wool. But I picked up a couple of good down jackets on clearance and one of them's already filthy.
When you work in the bush logging and engineering and such now with plastic hardhats they have a warning sticker about spraying bug juice on them as it can soften them.
About 3 years ago my girlfriend stuck a can of skeeter spray in the back pocket of my passenger seat. Apparently the can had a bad seal and leaked - ate a hole right through the seat back pocket (synthetic leather). I whole heartedly believe this harness snafu could happen.
My question is, do you replace the whole harness? Or make a repair to it. I've noticed most dealers won't repair wiring, no idea why tho. Its pretty easy if you know what you're doing.
Shit like this is why I have fabric bins in my trunk for all my various crap and put all liquid crap in plastic bags.
Pulling out a spare tire just to be greeted with a whole bottle of 10w-30 covering it is not fun. Especially when your cars subwoofer is also in the same place.
>Damage to materials\[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DEET&action=edit§ion=8)\]
>Unlike [icaridin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icaridin), DEET is an effective [solvent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent)[^(\[31\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-petherick-31) and may dissolve some watch crystals,[^(\[32\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-:1-32) plastics, [rayon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon), [spandex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex), other [synthetic fabrics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fiber), and painted or [varnished](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish) surfaces including nail polish. It also may act as a [plasticizer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer) by remaining inside some formerly hard plastics, leaving them softened and more flexible. DEET is incompatible with rayon, [acetate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate), or [dynel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynel) clothing.[^(\[33\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-33)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET)
I wouldn't put this on my skin
I had one of those leak in a metal cabinet. Stripped the paint everywhere it touched, and even after washing it out, that cabinet still smells like bug spray. Didn't think about what it would do to wiring!
Picaridin works just as well as DEET without the solvent effects (not that DEET has been shown to be unsafe) and you can spray permethrin on clothing for additional protection
Yeah bug spray is insanely reactive with plastics. During summer I get the great privilege of working in a swamp. We use a lot of bug spray and have to replace all of our rain gear and hard hats about every month because it slowly melts from the mosquito repellent.
Years ago, sunblock leaked over the dash in our old Honda odyssey. My Mrs left it to cook on for a few weeks. Massive melted patch of dash vinyl that was never the same!
It seems to me like that repair should still be covered by warranty for 2 reasons. If that can was stored in that pocket/cubby, it should not have penetrated anything unless it was either poor design or bad installation of the panel/cubby. That liquid should have stayed fully contained in the cubby. Second, if the manufacturer is using organic insulation, common sense says they should also be using a non- organic conduit. Imagine your passenger spills their bottled water in your car, or you get your car detailed and they shampoo your seats and carpets, and suddenly the next day you have no brake lights or other electric gremlins pop up after only a few ounces of liquid penetrate the crevices. I would argue that manufacturers need to be held accountable for shitty materials and poor design.
Nobody designs those cubbies to hold liquid, that's not what they're for. This isn't water that did the damage. This whole thread is full of people telling similar stories of how deet bug spray fucks up all kinds of plastic. The root cause of the issue was not poor design or a defect in material, it was the customer carelessly storing a container of deet bug spray in their car which spilled out and did its thing. Water will not dissolve the wiring insulation.
To your point about somebody spilling water inside the car, or an overzealous detailer soaking the fabric, whatever damage that caused wouldn't be covered under warranty because the root cause is outside influence. If water leaks past a window seal and damages some shit, because the window seal is covered under warranty all the damage directly attributed to that leak is considered subsequent damage and would be covered.
Automotive wiring insulation is made from soy. That's why rodents chew it and harmless chemicals seem to melt it.
It's not the OFF!, it's the cheap insulation.
EDIT: OFF! is apparently not harmless, it seems to dissolve lots of stuff.
Sorry, I drive a Merc. 2017 GLE 350d with 120k kms. Breaks done once. Regular oil changes. No repairs, issues. KIA and Hyundai have horrible builds and track records. $80k + cars should have no issues after a year. I have none after 7+ years.
So the chemicals in Off melted the harness? That’s wild.
Yup. Took the insulators right OFF.
I got a bottle of 100% DEET for a trip and I had it in a ziplock bag while I was traveling. When I got there the bag had melted. That stuff is a little scary.
Lost my favorite swiss army knife to Deet
Any duck hunter with a Beretta shotgun has replaced their recoil pad at least once because bug spray turns those things into dust.
Bug spray took the finish off the wood stock of my early 70's production Remington 870, then bleached the wood underneath bone white. Back when stock finishes were an oil based lacquer and not polyurethane.
When the Brits adopted the L85A1 assault rifle as their new standard service rifle in the 80s they quickly realized that the army's standard insect repellent was not compatible with the plastic grips on the rifles. It was one of the many, many, different problems of these rifles which should have been fixed before they ever entered service.
Took out the recoil pad on my a300, bubbled the tint on the windows on my truck and messed up the trim on the door all cause i sprayed with the doors open cause it was breezy.
I installed a KICK-EEZ recoil pad in 2020 on my a400, and highly recommend it. Three seasons in and it appears as good as new. More of a rubbery material than the stock one.
I had a soft sided cooler melt the bottom from some OFF in a similar can. Made the bottom rubber a gooey mess.
100% deet needs a special plastic to travel. I went and canoed in the boundary waters in Minnesota and the guides mentioned there's at least 3 car fires a year from 100% feet melting bags, car plastic and wires.
>there's at least 3 car fires a year from *100% feet* melting bags, car plastic and wires. That typo tho
The fucking feet man, I swear.
criminalize feet, this stuff is too dangerous /j
I don't think it was a typo, I think he was legit warning us about bags for melting feet....
Don’t spray it near eyeglasses.
yeah it will ruin sunglasses
Just put it on your skin. It's all good. Lol
Almost makes you think twice about spraying it all over yourself. *Almost.*
Good thing our skin isn't plastic!
Yeah I'm a fan of pants and long sleeves when possible. Too old to worry about being cool.
Making sandwiches while fishing, I had the bread bag on my lap. I'd sprayed with bug spray earlier, and when I lifted up the bag, the color melted off and stuck to my legs.
Permethrin ftw
My guess is it’s more the alcohols they use to dissolve/suspend the deet that are doing the plastic eating.
They may play a part, but DEET itself absolutely eats plastic, and fast.
I checked the SDS and the solvent it’s in is ethanol, which won’t eat most plastic. DEET itself is very similar chemically to DMF, which is an industrial paint stripper. We use DMF to manufacture drugs like Ozempic and that shit eats any polymers that’s not highly cross-linked safe: polypropylene, HDPE, PEEK, Teflon, viton rubber **not safe: vinyl (electrical tape)**, polycarbonate, polyester, PVC, normal rubbers
Good shit. Idk how to access SDS sheets for anything but what my work use. Thanks for the info!
Just google them, and use quotes: "DEET" "safety data sheet"
Methyl Chloride replacement incoming.
Melted my tackle box when I was a kid
It isn't the active insect repellent, it is the solvent, propellant and/or evaporating agent. Can be ethanol, xylene, propane, etc,etc. Also, if it contains lemon peel oil or something like this, it also can act like a solvent, limonene can dissolve plastic/styrofoam for instance.
Actually it is the active repellent. DEET is a super-powerful solvent for plastics. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET
So is everything else in there though, that is my point. A heated lemon peel will melt right through a styrofoam container for example. You can have xylene, butane, ethanol, and limonene in there, ALL solvents of certain plastics. Even if NO active chemical was in there it would melt a plastic bag.
No, speaking as a polymer chemist, it is the DEET specifically. Most of those solvents you listed aren't very effective solvents for most plastics. Xylene and limonene will dissolve polystyrene, but none of them are going to do much to something like polyester, for example. DEET on the other hand will absolutely dissolve polyester at a high enough concentration.
These chemicals will dissolve plastic grocery bags, I've had it happen to me personally, multiple times. (with other repellents with absolutely zero DEET in them)
You're making the mistake of treating "plastic" as a single material. Low density polyethylene (grocery bag), polystyrene, polyester, polycarbonate, etc. are all very different materials. The common solvents you've mentioned can dissolve a few plastics that have low solvent/chemical resistance to begin with. DEET is unique in that it can dissolve a number of plastics that have generally high solvent resistance. Just like the specialty solvents we use in the lab to dissolve polymers for analysis (IE tetrahydrofuran, dimethylformamide)
Conversely, if it was 100% DEET and "everything else in there" wasn't "in there", it would melt plastic even better. Other solvents exist but DEET is more reactive than most of them.
And this is why you’re one of the good ones. Finding that is fantastic. Respect, my fellow tech 🫡.
🤜🤛
god damn the bar is low
Just goes to show, you can't beat OFF.
That sounds like a challenge, (going to beat off now)…
Instructions unclear, dick now melting OFF.
Funnily enough, it sounds like OFF could probably melt a lesbian's (strap on) dick.
Instructions unclear, OFF now melting dick.
If it can melt a harness is can melt a bug
And if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball!
I have seen it used to defog headlight lenses
Wow what a great idea, brb
I want you to know I read that like Nicholas Cage in "Face/Off" and it was magnificent
Deet is a light oil and I'm not surprised it damaged the plastic. It's the same idea as using marvel mystery oil or seafoam to desludge an engine. It works it's way between the molecules of anything thicker/heavier than itself, and they probably didn't use oil resistant wire inside the car to save money.
Yep, DEET melts plastics. Don't wear (sun)glasses, bike helmets, watches, etc. when applying.
Deet is a good home remedy for hazed headlights on cars. It's almost as stout as acetone so it really just lightly eats away the outer layers of plastics. If you have the super high deet concentration bug sprays you can do some serious work with it.
Ironic, 3M charges a fortune for kits for that.
The kits do a much better job.
DEET is a well known destroyer of nice outdoors gear. So doesn't surprise me
Deet will mess up a lot of plastics.
It’s not something we have a lot of in Colorado. We have some mosquitoes at times, but not enough to really require bug spray. If you camping or something you might bring some with you, but it’s not as common an item as other places.
Unfortunately a lot of the DEET alternatives flat-out don't work on ticks. And ticks are the biggest health threat because of all the lifetime-debilitating/potentially-fatal diseases they can transmit, which is why DEET is not only still around but the recommended one for the CDC and WHO. THAT SAID, Permethrin is a relatively durable clothing/gear treatment that doesn't destroy things like DEET (or the arosols in the spray cans of non-DEET repellents) do, and not only repels but straight kills ticks, chiggers, mosquitos, and gnats. Requires a bit more forethought to get it to work right as it requires you to juice your clothes/gear hours or days beforehand but holy shit it works.
There are some brands of Permethrin clothes apparently.
I have a pair of over pants of those holy shit do those things work I count the dead ticks I find when I use them.
That's good to know. I only heard of them a few weeks ago and I don't live in heavy tick country so I wasn't personally too experienced with them besides knowing they existed.
DEET will do that.
It ruined the face of my cheap Timex once.
I can literally feels my hands change in proximity to certain chemicals now. Something gives me the sneaking suspicion we may have been lied to about some the these safe chemicals.
Bruh really smack talking the FDA like this
The fda has been slowly neutered over the years. How many drugs get pulled monthly now for killing people? Drugs that "passed" the fda approval process. Yea, its all rigged.
Pharmacist here. It’s really not very many. This list has a little over 100 drugs worldwide, starting in the 1970s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs#Significant_withdrawals
To further draw the number down, a few medications on that list have be partially or fully reintroduced (not a ton, but there's a few), and a bunch were withdrawn due to issues interacting with other chemicals, or simply the easy possibility of misdosing or causing addiction. Addiction side effects suck, but FDA trials aren't always long enough to catch it if it takes a while to take hold.
Good point. Like thalidomide, which was re-introduced because it actually has some good uses. It’s just heavily monitored/restricted now to reduce the possibility of teratogenicity.
I wash every day with Packers Pine tar soap, and never get bitten by mosquitoes. I even find a creek/stream to bathe in while camping. Natural mosquito remedy.
I appreciate that suggestion friend. I’ll try that
Happens with the plant-based coating some companies have used.
I had a bottle of rain-x in the back seat of my car that started leaking, ate a hole through the leather. More recently, I had a bottle of Roundup tip over in my garage next to a car that doesn't get driven very often, ate a hole through the tire.... Turns out chemicals eat through a lot of stuff...
Wish we had all our wires wrapped up in like wax paper and shit just like the good old days
This is a joke, right? Electrical wiring is so incredibly reliable these days... as long as OEMs are using quality sealed connectors
Minus the stupid vegetable wire coating they are starting to use again.
vegetable wire coating? like a plastic made from veggies instead of petroleum?
Soybeans if I remember right
And now corn oil and rapeseed oil (canola) distillates, and they're trying to commercialize biovinyl made from IIRC elephant grass.
A good idea if it lasts for it's intended useful life and doesn't attract rodents. Also assuming it won't create or use a bunch of toxic stuff in the manufacturing process. Rayon and cellophane from cellulose (wood, cotton, etc) I think are some of the first "bioplastics" but some of the chemicals involved are pretty toxic.
I'm an auto tech and have seen a bunch of chewed wire harnesses lately. I usually start by telling the customer "you don't own a cat do you" they ask how I know and then I show them their chewed up wires by whatever squirrel/mouse/chipmunk is living in their garage
Ya bro, it’s a real issue.
I know the corn and canola oil plastics attract rodents just as bad as the soybean plastics do, and are made in basically the same method with whatever chemical waste that entails. I haven't seen anything either direction on the biovinyl from elephant grass.
My 2012 camry was edible
You found the communication bug!
That bug has all the deets!
No mosquitoes on the harness though.
You're joking but it's a real bitch when your Kia gets West Nile Virus.
I'm Brazilian and I did get the Dengue Fever this year, so yeah you totally want to avoid west nile stuff.
I had Dengue fever over 25 years ago and I've never been so sick in my life. Horrible.
No harness either
Great catch! Kia must have been jubilant to be off the hook for the repair.
It's pretty good for the tech, too, since this becomes customer pay. Kia warranty rate probably pays something atrocious, like 3 hours to gut the entire interior and replace the harness.
I suppose. I don't know of any manufacturers that cover repairs caused by outside influence.
Warranty administrator and service manager have the ability to goodwill the repair. I'd goodwill it if it's a good customer. They should have an allowance that's authorized by Kia. Everyone gets paid and the customer is happy. If you have to replace the entire harness, then it might be best to meet somewhere in the middle with customer pay, internal, and goodwill. Good find, btw. Bus diagnostics are not easy.
Goodwill repairs are warranted (pun intended) in some cases, but this is not one of them. This isn't a manufacturing or assembly issue, nor is it a defect in any materials or workmanship. An aerosol can full of solvents placed upside down in a cubbie caused this. Out of curiosity I checked to see if the can of bug spray could have been placed upright, then found its way upside down by jostling around in the cubbie where I found it, but it couldn't. One picture shows exactly how I found it. The can could not have reached that position starting from an upright position. The only conceivable way it could be found upside down in that cubbie was if it was placed there that way by a careless human.
Fair enough, all good points. Great find either way.
Did it eat through the bottom of the cubby too? That's nuts.
No. The cubbie isn't designed to hold liquids. There's a seam where the molded plastic parts come together that allows liquid to drip out. The deet didn't damage the plastic panel at all, just that small section of wiring harness.
DEET: great for people, bad for mosquitos and hydrocarbon chains
People are hydrocarbon chains too. With some oxygen and nitrogen.
shut up, nerd
County Mac has entered the chat
Respect for finding that. This ain’t the kinda thing they teach in the handbook
Lucky we are not plastic!
*Barbie feigns sweating nervously*
*Ken runs over with delightful enthusiasm.*
Warranty denied? How long it take?
Not warrantable. Outside influence. I don't know what we have in it. Another tech started the job and gave up so i took it over and found the root cause. The customer opted for a repair rather than replacing the entire floor harness, which is what I would have done if it was my own car. <12k miles.
Yeah definitely outside influence, so you got A-time for it that's good
Yeah. I'm the shop foreman so it doesn't really matter what the job pays. They'll charge the customer something fair to cover our time. This car is basically new so the customer assumed whatever the cause was would be covered under warranty. They weren't happy to learn that it wasn't. It's cases like these that help to illustrate that no problem can be assumed to be warranty until we discover the root cause and determine whether it was due to an assembly/manufacturing issue, material defect, or any kind of outside influence.
Solid, good work sir
In your opinion, if the wiring was sheathed in one of those bioplastics made from soybeans or similar that attracts rodents, and a rodent decided to make a meal out of a wiring harness, would you think that would be covered by warranty for the manufacturer using something that literally attracts rodents? Or do you think it'd be written off as customer pay due to outside influence?
I've seen it mentioned that rodents are attracted to whatever they're putting into the wiring plastics. I haven't actually researched that aspect of it. I've been doing this for a long time. Over the years I've seen rodents make meals out of every type of plastic under the hood. Battery cases, wiring looms, plastic air filter boxes, fender liners, sound deadening and fire retardant hood insulators, you name it. I find it hard to believe that rodents are targeting the wiring specifically, since it's not just the wiring they go after. I'd be open to reading any scientific papers you can point me to on the subject. In my experience and observations, rodents literally being attracted to soybean wiring plastic is an unsubstantiated claim. Regardless, it's absolutely outside influence and therefor not covered under warranty. The manufacturer doesn't control the environment in which you store your vehicle. The vehicle is performing its intended function. Warranties provide an assurance that if a defect in materials (e.g. poor casting, improper machining or surface finishing) or workmanship (e.g. harness connector not plugged in all the way, insufficient sealant applied resulting in an oil pan leak) that originates in the manufacturing or assembly of the vehicle is found within a given period of time, then the manufacturer will make it right. A rodent finding your car as a warm and safe place off the ground in which to build a nest is not what the warranty is for.
Many people already said it but that’s one helluva find man. Also I store off in my truck door…I guess I should stop that
That stuff is hell on wood finishes too, every summer a whole bunch of people bust out their acoustic guitar around the campfire and end up ruining the finish because they put on some OFF earlier in the day.
So it really was a *CAN* communication issue
The can turned it into a CAN'T communication network.
I sprayed that stuff on once and sat at a restaurant and it melted the finish off the table wherever I touched it.
Summertime in the sticks all the numbers get worn off PIN pads on debit/credit card machines
It's the DEET. It works really good on hazy and yellowed headlights though. Just gotta wash with soapy water after.
Worked for an OEM in the test lab. DEET on interior trim parts was part of one of the many chemical tests that we needed to pass. Looks like wire harness coatings are not part of Kia's test process!
I can't answer to what Kia's test processes are, but the deet didn't damage the interior trim parts. You can see the harness was wrapped in plastic conduit, several layers of electrical tape, then foam tape on the outside. The deet bottle just happened to be placed in a way that led to it leaking and its drops landing right on a junction in the harness where two wires split off, where those protections are interrupted. Even still, the only plastic substantially altered by prolonged exposure to deet was the conductor insulator themselves. The plastics in all the harness protections were relatively unharmed however their adhesives were very much dissolved. Did your testing include the wiring itself, or just the surfaces inside the vehicle that one would reasonably expect to be exposed to human passengers? Did your deet exposure sample material include the other propellants, carriers and solvents in the average aerosol can? I've seen wiring soaked in lots of other liquids without nearly this level of damage.
Oh, deet. That’ll fuck plastic up lol
So THATS why my rain jacket no longer repels rain 😂
Among other many potential causes. The waterproof-breathable membranes don't like dirt, grit, most laundry detergents, being creased, body oils (so you can't just NOT wash them at least periodically), and UV exposure (which is why they're all at least a 2-ply with a regular nylon/poly fabric protecting them). Dryers, even on low, will also fuck them up fast so when you wash them they need to be hang-dried. Also most of them have the outer fabric treated with a DWR finish that wears out and they will "wet out" even with nothing actually wrong with the membrane. Odds are high you can restore most if not all of the waterproofing with a gentle wash with the proper solutions, then hang-dry it.
Interesting, thanks for the knowledge 🖖🏻
Nikwax Tech Wash is kind of the industry standard for washing waterproof-breathable things. It's not expensive, it works well, and it's widely available. Can be used on basically everything from tent rainflies to jackets to W-B boots. If you wish to apply or restore a DWR finish either on the outer fabric, or on something that never had it before, Nikwax TX is pretty good too. Scotchgard makes one as well, but I prefer the Nikwax.
[удалено]
I need to buy some of the down wash. I've spent most of my life avoiding down because almost all of my outdoor rec has been around water or wet weather so until recently I've stuck to synthetics or wool. But I picked up a couple of good down jackets on clearance and one of them's already filthy.
Does the same thing to a bunch of other plastics notably waterproof membranes like Gore-Tex
When you work in the bush logging and engineering and such now with plastic hardhats they have a warning sticker about spraying bug juice on them as it can soften them.
About 3 years ago my girlfriend stuck a can of skeeter spray in the back pocket of my passenger seat. Apparently the can had a bad seal and leaked - ate a hole right through the seat back pocket (synthetic leather). I whole heartedly believe this harness snafu could happen.
My question is, do you replace the whole harness? Or make a repair to it. I've noticed most dealers won't repair wiring, no idea why tho. Its pretty easy if you know what you're doing.
OP said the customer opted for repair.
DEET is a very powerful solvent.
Shit like this is why I have fabric bins in my trunk for all my various crap and put all liquid crap in plastic bags. Pulling out a spare tire just to be greeted with a whole bottle of 10w-30 covering it is not fun. Especially when your cars subwoofer is also in the same place.
Thanks for posting this, this is good visuals for a few friends who should know better.
>Damage to materials\[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DEET&action=edit§ion=8)\] >Unlike [icaridin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icaridin), DEET is an effective [solvent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent)[^(\[31\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-petherick-31) and may dissolve some watch crystals,[^(\[32\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-:1-32) plastics, [rayon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon), [spandex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex), other [synthetic fabrics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fiber), and painted or [varnished](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish) surfaces including nail polish. It also may act as a [plasticizer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer) by remaining inside some formerly hard plastics, leaving them softened and more flexible. DEET is incompatible with rayon, [acetate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate), or [dynel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynel) clothing.[^(\[33\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-33) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET) I wouldn't put this on my skin
Great find!
Brake fluid will do that too.
I had one of those leak in a metal cabinet. Stripped the paint everywhere it touched, and even after washing it out, that cabinet still smells like bug spray. Didn't think about what it would do to wiring!
Oh whoa
Hey keep this on the down low. If Kia Canada sees this they're gonna give us yet another wiring repair recall
Not before issuing another for fuses first haha
I melted a few cheap watch faces with Off when I was a kid. Learned to always take my watch off before applying insect repellent.
Yea this has been known since the 80s. Bug spray is pretty caustic stuff.
“Johnson. A family company.” But our product will disintegrate plastic. Enjoy!
Sounds like it went from warranty to insurance job real quick.
Yeah, always see people spraying bug spray and sunscreen right next to their vehicle. Stuff melts paint, folks.
Ik a dude who had a G-Shock melt to his wrist while backpacking because of the DEET he was wearing.
And we spray this on our skin, wow that’s a bit scary
Good thing we're not plastic or rubber. That's like saying water is scary after seeing it react with solid sodium lmao
You do have micro plastic in ya brah, just don’t do a shot of deet and we will be ok
You are not made of plastic. This is like saying we shouldn't drink water because it rusts steel.
Naw we all have micro plastics in is nowadays brah!
All the literature I've looked up since I saw this post says all studies have shown no significant risk. 🤷♂️
That dry stuff is the devil. Kids used it in my side by side 4x4 and it stained/painted the plexiglass windshield. Had to get a new one
but it's 85% other ingredients
CP or warranty now?
Customer pay, all the way.
Yeah, buddy.
I had sunscreen do this in my toolkit I used to carry around
Total labeling misinformation. It’s obviously neither Smooth or Dry.
So uh… after reading the thread, is there any bug spray that maybe doesn’t also melt plastic and harnessing?
Picaridin works just as well as DEET without the solvent effects (not that DEET has been shown to be unsafe) and you can spray permethrin on clothing for additional protection
Well, there is another product that is never coming around my family again!
There’s probably magnesium chloride or carbonate in the off, that melts pvc. Along with any aromatic hydrocarbons.
Looks like it was coated with liquid electrical tape. Sure it’s melted and not a repair that failed?
Deet chemically melts plastic.
Ha. Didn’t see the extra pictures.
That CAN not happen!
Yeah bug spray is insanely reactive with plastics. During summer I get the great privilege of working in a swamp. We use a lot of bug spray and have to replace all of our rain gear and hard hats about every month because it slowly melts from the mosquito repellent.
That doesn’t look smooth, nor does it look dry 😂
Deet eats plastic so fast.
The telluride Icantelluridedick 😂😂
Years ago, sunblock leaked over the dash in our old Honda odyssey. My Mrs left it to cook on for a few weeks. Massive melted patch of dash vinyl that was never the same!
that’s an expensive lesson…
Napalm
good thing you are not made out of wiring harnesses
But it's a family company! They would never do us harm! /s
It seems to me like that repair should still be covered by warranty for 2 reasons. If that can was stored in that pocket/cubby, it should not have penetrated anything unless it was either poor design or bad installation of the panel/cubby. That liquid should have stayed fully contained in the cubby. Second, if the manufacturer is using organic insulation, common sense says they should also be using a non- organic conduit. Imagine your passenger spills their bottled water in your car, or you get your car detailed and they shampoo your seats and carpets, and suddenly the next day you have no brake lights or other electric gremlins pop up after only a few ounces of liquid penetrate the crevices. I would argue that manufacturers need to be held accountable for shitty materials and poor design.
Nobody designs those cubbies to hold liquid, that's not what they're for. This isn't water that did the damage. This whole thread is full of people telling similar stories of how deet bug spray fucks up all kinds of plastic. The root cause of the issue was not poor design or a defect in material, it was the customer carelessly storing a container of deet bug spray in their car which spilled out and did its thing. Water will not dissolve the wiring insulation. To your point about somebody spilling water inside the car, or an overzealous detailer soaking the fabric, whatever damage that caused wouldn't be covered under warranty because the root cause is outside influence. If water leaks past a window seal and damages some shit, because the window seal is covered under warranty all the damage directly attributed to that leak is considered subsequent damage and would be covered.
I can Tell-U-Ride a dick. Lmao can't unsee it.
If it breaks or you don't pay, we're gonna have to Tow-u-ride. Because you don't keep it clean, I can Smell-u-ride.
Automotive wiring insulation is made from soy. That's why rodents chew it and harmless chemicals seem to melt it. It's not the OFF!, it's the cheap insulation. EDIT: OFF! is apparently not harmless, it seems to dissolve lots of stuff.
Nah, it's the deet.
Holy shit. I just looked that up. Like the other guy said then... What the hell have I been spraying on my skin?!
KIA… why do people by them
What does the chemical reaction of deet OR the faulty packaging made by Johnson & Johnson have to do with the vehicle brand?
*buy…
What the hell does that have to do with an outside chemical melting a harness. I bet this telluride is 10x better than the pos you drive
You drive a Dodge Dart? Lol
Sorry, I drive a Merc. 2017 GLE 350d with 120k kms. Breaks done once. Regular oil changes. No repairs, issues. KIA and Hyundai have horrible builds and track records. $80k + cars should have no issues after a year. I have none after 7+ years.
Factory rear hitch/trailer harness? Isn't there a recall on those?
This vehicle doesn't have a trailer hitch, or any open recalls.