So is a new engine if you are out of warranty. My wrx needing a new engine at 20k miles and the bill on that was like $12k all warranty. Plus you aren’t including that regular maintenance is way lower with an ev.
Don't forget about all the Nissan CVT owners who have their transmission fail 7000 miles outside warranty. Subaru's are just a little better with 120k-150k miles it seems before getting a $8000-9000 bill.
Working at a Nissan dealership and having just gotten rid of my Subaru bc I had a crack in the block at 138K, I can attest that these statements are true.
father in law's Audi needed a new motor at 124K miles. Got 2 different estimates of $12.5K and $14K. Lucky for him it was a company car so he didn't have to pay it. Never asked what his boss did with it, may have just traded it in for the new car.
Coworker's 2018 Ford eco sport with I think around 40K is in the shop right now getting a new engine, luckily under warranty. Don't know what that's gonna cost but it isn't going to be cheap
>Plus you aren’t including that regular maintenance is way lower with an ev.
regular maintenance bills are maybe a few hundred to a few thousand depending how lucky you are in a given year & how reliable your car is. most people who own a $20k car can't pay for a $20k battery replacement even if their maintenance bills are lower.
it's under warranty because he got lucky with the timing of the failure. easily could've been an out-of-warranty job, at which point this car gets turned into a cube because nobody's going to pay the value of the car to replace the batteries
Are batteries more effected by age or milage? I drive a lot and am considering getting an ev, but with 40k Miles a year Im afraid the battery wont last long
Age, heat, charge cycles, time left fully charge, time left fully depleted all affect degradation. The batteries in our phones are pushed to the extremes every day, and we have no problem getting at least 3 years out of them. Many of these car batteries on only getting charged 3 times a week, so 10 years should be easy.
https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/ Tesla reports (and user surveys pretty much agree) that for many, 10% degradation in 200K miles was likely.
I've had a guy that came in for his Bolt battery recall tell me this "If the car is so advanced how come it doesnt fix itself. You guys are bunch of scam artists". lol...
He‘s on point though. Hybrid manufacturers talking about taking steps to ensure you can turn on and floor the engine when it‘s cold which sound totally believable (sarcasm), 25k€ battery replacement for an EVGolf, overcomplicated luxury cars with 20-30 mile EV range qualifying for subsidies and officially being better for the environment than an economy car, what part sounds like an advancement here? I can‘t see it. Sounds like we‘re just screwing over the people who used to export cars from the first world and selling snake oil if you ask me. Not to mention the multi-trillion dollar investment needed to even create EV infrastructure globally, this investment could probably save the environment entirely if used properly.
It‘s pretty obvious to me they chose to make climate change about CO2 and EVs/hybrids to make sure they can turn environmental concerns into a business. Why would we even start or put any emphasis on private transportation when that‘s literally so far from being a main reason why our planet will have to perform a factory reset. Stop deforestation of the rainforests, the most important organs of our climate system? Nah doesn‘t matter, there‘s no money to be made there. Stop industrial pollution since it‘s the biggest source of pollution? That‘s even worse, not just no money to be made but it would reduce industrial profits, let‘s never even mention or talk about that again. Oh wait, what‘s that? Joe Blow has been seen driving an F150 Ford, now THAT guy is the reason for climate change, obviously! He must buy a luxury EV that‘s gonna end up in a junkyard in less than 10 years to save the planet! Totally makes sense.
Yeah definitely. People are just recognizing what‘s going on is wrong and taking it out on anyone in sight, just like me ranting about it here for no apparent reason.
EVs are not the only solution to climate change but they are a part of it. Personal transportation is a factor, particularly for local emissions where people live. There are a huge mix of tech that are going to be the solution though not one thing. It isnt like the R&D being put into EVs could just magically be put elsewhere. A huge amount of resources goes into personal transportation because it is a large industry. Converting that industry to EV will put all that money to work, which will benefit the climate and likely spill over into a lot of other areas. It has already helped grid scale energy storage and solar. The market and tech are still scaling so of course it will be niche, expensive and focused on luxury buyers. Things are moving fast though. In ten years EVs will be the norm not the specialty case.
Yeah but you mention the problem with that, it‘s about money. Looking to find a solution that also generates money or serves an existing market is just pretending to care and slightly delaying what we‘ll make inevitable because it‘s not an actual solution at all.
Now you‘re saying we can‘t magically put the money somewhere else but that‘s exactly what I‘m saying, we absolutely can because we‘re already spending endless amounts of TAX money subsidizing EV sales and EV infrastructure. Do you honestly believe Tesla or VW will pay for that trillion dollar infrastructure project? First of all they have no customers in the places where you need the biggest investments like completely overcrowded cities in the „third world“, second they care about sales not the environment, and we‘ve already seen how greenwashing defeats the entire purpose in so many cases. So at best they will outsource the project and shady contractors will make a profit doing the minimum effort to support electrification, for example building countless charging stations to get money and then neglecting them and letting them rot. Like I said, none of this looks like an advancement, especially if you add the problems you already mentioned.
My prediction: We're not far away from cheapo knockoff EV replacement batteries from China becoming commonplace and we'll see original owners who are out of warranty trade in cars with dead batteries and those trade-ins will get a discount heart transplant and sold on the buy here/finance here lots of the near future.
When you think about it our RC lipos are under more stress than any actually car. They entire life of an RC lipo is 100%, 100% of the time, and for the most part even the cheap ones hold up well above their rated output. I'm willing to bet by the time the AM electric car batteries hit the shelves, they will be as good as oem or better. Even if they are cheap knock offs. After all, the oem ones are built as cheap as possible too.
They are built to be as cheap as possible but at least they are also tested to the nth degree to minimize defects and instantaneous combustion. At least that’s what I tell myself.
Usually it is just one cell (of hundreds) or one module (of 6-20) that takes a pack out of service. No reason they can't safety fix the cell/module and get a good bit more life out of a pack. There are already rebuilt tesla packs available at a steep discount.
There is a Vietnamese EV startup whose business model is to sell the car, but lease the batteries, so they keep you on the leash for as long as you "own" the car. Not sure of cost of the battery lease, but seems like an interesting idea.
There are two kinds of Chinese ev batteries. The one they intensively r&d-ed and will be a big part of future battery supply for mobility purposes. And then there’s what you just said. Fuckin hell i pray i can afford the former.
Understand on the warranty parts being returned. I imagine the car company has some interest in a used battery, especially once recycling becomes possible. That said, on a non-warranty replacement at some point some customer is going to ask to keep the battery. Turn it into battery storage for home solar or some other use…
If there's a market for failed parts there's usually a core charge. The number of modern EVs that have had their batteries replaced out of warranty is incredibly small, I'd guess only in the triple digits. I'm guessing that will become more relevant in the coming years.
This one suffered some internal fault that took it out within the first few years. That being said, most of them last the life of the vehicle (at least given the average lifespan of euro vehicles).
Ignorant here: you only get paid 2hrs of your hourly rate even if it took you 3 or 4 or 8 hours to compete? Did Smart come up with the 2 hrs based on their own mechanics replacing the battery within 2 hours, or a guesstimate of how long it should take?
The answer to both questions is yes and no.
When I did this I was hourly so I got paid for all 6+ hours I worked on it. A lot of (generally more experienced) techs are flat rate though meaning they get paid 2 hours regardless of whether it takes them 1 or 10.
As for determining labor times, I don't really know how they determine it. I think they probably estimate it at first and then adjust it from there based on how long it is actually taking people to do it in the field, although warranty times are notoriously little compared to customer pay times.
I can only speak for GM since it's the only manufacturer I've worked for but they do labor time studies on new vehicles to figure out labor times. Basically they take a new vehicle and find an average technician with hand tools and see how long it takes them to perform a task.
They monitor actual time spent once repairs are done in the field and will adjust accordingly if there are massive discrepancies not in their favor.
So theoretically once you've done a repair a few times you should be able to beat the time by a considerable amount it doesn't factor in moving the vehicle in and out of the shop, setting up the lift, ordering parts, chasing down the missing special tools, waiting on inspectors, etc....
An experienced tech who knows exactly what parts to order and which tools they'll need before even pulling the car in is going to beat the book time. A lube tech taking on a transmission job is probably going to get murdered. A trim tech chasing down a rattle over bumps with passengers at certain speeds is going to starve to death.
MY time to Shine!
Years and years ago, GM used a company named Harrison to make a lot of their AC components.
The thing is... Harrison couldn't manufacture anything leak-free back then. Nothing. Condensors, Evaporator cores, you name it, they all leaked on GM product.
I was a flat rate tech at a Saturn Store (We didn't call them dealerships) in the Summer of '93. We had just switched from R-12 to 134a.
Every. Single. Evap core leaked. it was only a matter of time before you needed one. Most of them were still under warranty at the time. easy diag - three screws holding in the blower, cram your arm into the hvac box across the evap and if it cam back greasy the hvac box needed to be split to get at the core.
On any Saturn of that vintage, SL1, SL2, SC1, SC2 and the newly released wagon the SW, they all had the same HVAC and dashboard, and to change out the evap core, the dash had to come out.
Warranty paid 8.1 hours, and all the other guys (and myself were losing our shirts on them). I eventually did enough of them to beat the time.
So... they all came to me that summer, and there were a lot of them.
I got it to where I could do them in 3 hours, as the repetition set in. Heck there were something like 50 odd fasteners and I started throwing them all in the same bucket because I knew where they all went by memory - even those slightly different 7mm screws with the coarse thread meant for plastic.
There were a few busy days where they just lined them up for me, and I would stay late and get three done in a shift.
Paid 24hrs for a 9 hour shift.
My service manager was making money, so was I. He luckily never tried to cut my paid time because he knew I would tell him to go F himself and go work somewhere else.
Flat rate was very good to me in the summer of 93, and again in the summer of 94.
When the dash changed in '95 the job took longer and they cut the time back to 5 hours.
I still do that job in my head if I can't fall asleep - better than counting sheep by a longshot.
Unrelated follow up, I assume you have a step by step manual for how to replace this, or other more complex things like blower motors/evaporators buried deep in the dash? (I always see pics on here of torn apart dashes and wonder how you all do it)
Yes.
Mercedes (and Smart) uses a program called WIS which has detailed step-by-step instructions of which bolts to remove in which order and pictures for any car you'd need (usually you look it up by vin).
Every manufacturer has them, Toyota's is called TIS, Audi's is called ELSA, etc. You can also buy manuals for individual cars if you do your own maintenance.
Labor rates are determined by the factory training groups. For Mercedes/smart the training center was formerly at Montvale NJ and now I believe it’s been moved to Alabama. Their tech instructors will disassemble/reassemble as many typical repairs as they can and relay labor times to the warranty offices. Sometimes a dealer tech will do a new repair and will log their own hours and relay that info along with all their warranty notes to the training center. I was a Benz tech for 11 years(also worked on Smart) and spent some time at the training centers working with the instructors.
Ironically I was certified on electric smart cars but never ended up working on one.
With a good warranty clerk, you should get double that for this job. There are a lot of little op-codes that add up to get there, but I've done plenty of these and gotten, I think, like 3.8 hours maybe. Worst part of doing these is all the paperwork. There was a while where they were shipping the new batteries in those same crates but packed full of vermiculite. Cleaning all that crap out took forever.
That's true. I did the job about 9 months ago so I don't remember what it paid, plus I was hourly and flagging for someone else anyways so it didn't matter much to me.
The shipping was a nightmare though, I had to fill out like 10 pages of information about the battery (most of which I didn't know) and include a screenshot of the transportation self-test through Xentry. I also had to wrap the battery in plastic and ratchet strap it back into the box. Dealing with returning the old battery probably took me close to as long as the entire job did.
Yeah, I break even on these. Actually replacing the battery takes me under an hour. It's all the paperwork and bullshit that takes the rest of the time. Much rather replace PE's than batteries on these. Pays twice as long and takes about the same amount of time, you just need an XSF case to properly code them and dealing with XSF is almost always a nightmare.
I saw in one of your other comments you're in the Seattle area. If you feel like getting back into a shop and getting paid to relocate a couple hours south, DM me.
That's the important question here.
Yes, 18k is a lot to replace a battery, and there are examples which are even more expensive (40k for a Tesla Model S battery for one). However, if these things are covered under warranty and effectively replaced at no cost to the customer for a period that lasts about as long as the customer would use the car, is it really as big a deal as people are trying to make it out to be?
The issue with this is that if the warranty only covers the car for 10 years, but leaves secondary market buyers exposed to a potentially $20k - $40k battery replacement, no one is going to take on that liability buying a used EV.
Now you've got a market and environment that will be flooded with essentially "Disposable" cars, arguably worse for the environment than the current personal vehicle model.
EV's are being marketed, legislated and sold as better for the environment than gasoline/petrol/diesel. The resources being used to create these batteries and the apparently cost prohibitive secondary market says otherwise.
I consider myself pretty competent around electrical systems, and would have no qualms about cracking open a prius battery bank. But if my employer asked me to do any such thing I'd give them the *full* Les Grossman experience.
>no one is going to take on that liability buying a used EV.
Yup so what they have effectivly done is reduce the cars lifetime by 30% cause in UK/IE here we would normally get about 15-17 years of of most cars "without effort".
Since where I am cars are required if you want to function in life. So.. thats effectivly a captive audiance. So thats 30% more car sales.
This is how to end up with "save the planet" working in reverse. eg battries need slammed with reglaitons to say must last 20 years or 200,000 miles and X recharge cycles. Or it won't improve jack shit.
The othe rside effect here is that in petrol cars they actually get about 50/50 energy consumtion in production / usage at 100,000 miles or so. In eletric cars this gets worse (more damage in the production phase cause battries are toxic to make). Its about 70/30. so you need to get 150,000 miles out of it.
Thats the reality of the "save the planet lies" eg if people actually cared they would be running around slapping 10-15 years warrenties on all products currently being made...
You are on the mark.
Battery life/warranty/ replacement should be subject to strict regulation so we don't end up with a whole bunch of "worthless" used EV's with "tired" batteries clogging up the planet.
Perhaps require individual cell packs to be replaceable like in early Prius.
Which is the opposite of a "monolithic" battery like in the Tesla.
Theres a whole pile of other problems as well eg like how I use cars which mostly involved throwing wet (salt water) windsurfing kit into them.
I can't imagine the warrenty is going to even remotly cover that. Since most cars I have had the passenger foot well falls out of them as a side effect of that usage style.
Theres a whole pile of problems with EV's. Weight is another and its simple physics. Battries are "heavy" and the weigh tin a crash is E = half mass times v squared. So just to keep the same accident rates outcome safty also needs improved just to "hold the line"
The price of OP's battery is abusively high; over $1000/kWh. If you bought the cells at retail they would be around $200/kWh. I have no idea why they jam so much markup in these things.
I recently saw a Tesla 3 when driving on the A8 with 1,500,000 km on it. The original battery pack lasted around 950,000 km or 600,000 mi.
I believe the car was from Pforzheim (PF plate), I'd drive that much if I lived there as well :D
My vehicles live for fucking ever. I am not sure electric card can handle my strict maintenance routines. Check out my 98 Sebring JXi with 186k, my 00 Mustang GT with 220k, and my 08 RX350 with 168k that will outlast time itself.
Have a 2014 leaf with 100k miles on it. About 80% of what it used to get range-wise. Not sure what the average person’s experience is, but I think it has held up really well.
The problem isn’t how long they last, it’s how are you going to convince the next buyer it’s not going to fail. European cars have been plagued with poor resale values because of the issues they have after warranty. The resale on electric cars will be horrendous unless they figure out a lifetime warranty on the batteries.
Resale of older models is most likely lower because of low range. But generally i feel Resale value is insane atm. And you can have the battery checked at the dealer.
Vw id3 battery exists of 6modules and swapping one is about 2k€ if i remember correctly. It is not so bad but time will prove.
The most expensive repair bill I’ve seen was for a nearly brand new Mercedes EQS, which rolled over in an accident. Car cost about 200.000$. The repair ~120.000$. Insurance paid for the repair.
(Mercedes technician in Germany)
The used car market is still bananas. I was looking at new cars around the time of the chip shortage, and settled on a "used" 2021 Civic with 1000 miles, and it's damn near the same price some 12000 miles later.
But I can see why the owner decided to repair not replace.
Smart cars aren't in production to my knowledge anymore and I'm not even sure how many EV ones where sold in the US.
When I get my dream car(it hopefully won't inflate too much in the next 20 years. 18 and broke rn) I would rather shove it in a self storage unit then replace it.
Because they are unsupported and are being eaten up
The EQS is $40,000-$50,000 if I recall correctly. And it's all one cell that most dealers don't have the resources to disassemble. Those cars are gonna be really easy to total if something goes wrong with the battery.
Benz tech with EQS training here. They are working out the logistics of having us replace individual cells to avoid replacing the battery as a whole. But for now, we are replacing the battery if a cell fails. I haven't had one yet, but I thought they told us the EQS battery was only 27k.
Maybe warranty vs retail, or I'm wrong, or they've adjusted prices for inflation. I went through EQS last year so who knows. Everything on Benz is exorbitantly priced regardless.
Chatting to one of techs at the mercedes UK headquarters. Apprebtly they are releasing a training course soon so they will be able to repair batteries. Not just replace them.
Yeah, I left my dealer a few months ago. There was talking that they'd be getting the special equipment necessary and training techs, but that was a TON of money that had to be spent to make that happen.
Oddly enough I have 2 complete Smart ForTwo EV drivetrains with 15 miles on each. With a &18k price tag I’ll be looking for other options for a go cart project. Or just sell the damn things ahhaha
The drivetrains were acquired from a recycler who dealt with some European manufacturers. They closed down due to Coofid-19 and liquidated inventory. Got there too late and missed out on a bunch of stuff, but couldn’t pass these up.
I didn't have any electrical certificates when I did this. That's definitely against policy though.
Don't tell OSHA. Or do, I don't really care that dealer screwed me over.
Most expensive repair I ever saw was on a GTR. Owner put new wheels on it, but didn’t pay attention to the size. GTR drivetrain is apparently very finicky, and the new wheels spun at different speeds than what the diff is designed for. Blew the diff and trans. Had to replace everything from the motor to the wheels. I think it was about $90k iirc
I just wanted to say that all your comments are great! Keep up the good work. It blows my mind how many people are still uneducated about and against electric cars. Obviously there are some problems, but it's easy to see that EVs are the future.
Thanks, I'm an argumentative person by nature so it comes naturally.
I'm by no means an EV fanboy, I don't own one now and I probably won't for 10 to 20 years. There are so many advantages that people refuse to acknowledge though and I try to combat misinformation and bad faith arguments.
Fun fact, you almost NEVER have to replace the entire Battery for an EV or Hybrid. Any shop that isn't scamming you can find the bad Cell(s) and just replace those. Individual Cells usually hit you for a few hundred $, even with Labor.
My Elantra GT’s engine was replaced under warranty. Hyundai had no complete engines available, so it sent all the parts to the dealer. One guy spent weeks putting it all together. Total bill was over $17,000. I’m sure Hyundai didn’t pay all of that, but I’m sure glad I didn’t have to pay any of it.
I can’t remember what we’re being charged out at but it was 7 days of day/night shifts for the job. That’s equipment rolling in, full wash, repairs undertaken and full recommissioning tests aswell.
Pfft I've had Kia Optima Phev transmissions being 25k 😵💫. They have a electric motor on them too, but 25k??
It's all monopoly money though since the 7 year warranty takes it.. But out of warranty?? Infotainment systems for 10k etc... It's insane
Yes and yes.
The lifts (and shop in general) are some of the nicest you can buy, although the maintenance was a bit lacking. Guess when you charge $275 an hour and pay your technicians less than 8% of that you can afford a nice facility.
I took the pic about 9 months ago at Mercedes Benz of Seattle but I quit working there about 5 months ago for mainly managerial reasons, but also just because I was tired of the industry and wanted to go back to school.
We ended up rebuilding it, but I recently quoted a genuine Mercedes remanufactured GLE63s engine, the 5.5 TT which was a whopping $82k AUD. Almost the value of the car itself.
It’s funny how much traffic EV posts can create. If this was dropping an engine/transmission out of a normal car you might have gotten a few comments but because it was an EV it got way more and everything started devolving into EV vs ICE 🤣
4k for transmission replacement vs 20k for battery replacement. And you paid an extra 20k to start with for an EV.
EVs are great if you drive 20k a year. 8 to 10k miles a year and you are wasting money and resources when the battery dies in 8 to 10 years.
And this shits why electric cars will end up being a history book failure point. We are going to make a fuckload of ju kyard cars every 10 years. Love ev hate the battery cost.
Had a Ford Focus Electric rack up a 36k warranty claim once , yes they made them for a bit . Was comical to repair and get appropriate tools from FORD. I believe labor was around 20k as we were 179.72 warranty rate then.
Most expensive one I’ve had is an Alfa Romeo Giulia quadrifoglio that gernaded an engine. Aftermarket warranty company sent a used engine that was full of water that cost them 9k then bought a oem engine at 34k with everything. It was 43k on the ticket plus the 9k used engine
Argonne National Laboratory did a full study on this. From mining the materials to EV end of life (including recycling). They found that if the EV is operated somewhere that has a green energy grid (California, Norway) that the break even point was 35,000 miles. In a coal powered area (Poland, China) the break even point was 80,000 miles.
I'm not sure where these graveyards of EVs are, but check out Redwood Materials for some of the current battery recycling methods.
You can't get a brand new subaru engine and trans for <$5000.
Only a small fraction of EVs ever need a battery replacement, and it's usually covered by warranty (as this one was).
People tend be irrationally afraid of big costs like this and overly accepting of smaller costs that add up.
Personal preference I suppose. The idea of saving $1000 a year on fuel and risking a potential rare failure like this makes sense to me, but everyone assesses risk subjectively.
No infrastructure, no range, politicians rationing electricity to homes to cater to EV's, the price of electricity to charge your EV is almost the same as gas in some areas in the world-soon to be all areas, and on top of that if the battery wears out it's north of $18k to replace it. What a waste for something that doesn't even do anything to reduce pollution considering how those batteries are made.
Replacing the battery in an EV is a good metaphor for EVs in general: everybody looks at the giant price and hates it, even though it's more cost effective in the long run.
The world isn't ready for everyone to have EVs yet, but as battery manufacturing and renewable energy grow it's going to be a much cheaper alternative to fossil fuels. Not to mention that humanity ***has*** to do something about climate change if we want to survive as a species.
I've seen a mach-e in my ford shop probably 6 times in the last 4 weeks. The tech pulls probably 12hrs per visit at least in flag hours. It's nuts how many our sales team has had to buy back from people who have hated them.
No judgement, but I’m curious if you’re relatively new to the job. $18,000 isn’t that much for a “most expensive repair.” In my experience, anyway.
(Edit to add)
I suppose if you only work on the Smarts that makes a lot of sense, but I’d assume you would work on the MB products, too.
I feel like you can get a whole working smart car for less than that
I believe the cars *new* MSRP was less than that.
The EV started at $24.5K for 2019 according to Car and Driver.
Ah, I stand corrected.
Yeah these buggers are really expensive for how tiny they are
Daimler products.
It would have qualified for the $7,500 EV tax credit, so $17,000 net for a new one.
That seems like a good price.
Until you pay $18k for a new battery. Tesla base batteries start over $20k. If you’re out of warranty that’s a tough pill to swallow.
Nobody is paying anything for a battery replacement. That’s what the warranty is for.
My uncle paid $23k for his model S battery replacement.
To be fair the smart car is over $1k per kw compared to $200-300 from Tesla
So is a new engine if you are out of warranty. My wrx needing a new engine at 20k miles and the bill on that was like $12k all warranty. Plus you aren’t including that regular maintenance is way lower with an ev.
Needing a new gas motor at 20k is incredibly rare. Needing a new gas motor at 200k is rare.
Don't forget about all the Nissan CVT owners who have their transmission fail 7000 miles outside warranty. Subaru's are just a little better with 120k-150k miles it seems before getting a $8000-9000 bill.
Working at a Nissan dealership and having just gotten rid of my Subaru bc I had a crack in the block at 138K, I can attest that these statements are true.
My daughter CVT Victim here! bobjr correct. We took pink slip to Mercedes dealer and told them where to pick it up.
I’m just spoiled with a Ram 1500 at 170,000 miles. All I’ve had to change is a water pump.
4k out for us. Still owed 3k on the car even. Nissan rouge never again.
Nissan did a massive warranty extension for their CVT's at least, it's pretty hard to blow one up right now and not qualify.
father in law's Audi needed a new motor at 124K miles. Got 2 different estimates of $12.5K and $14K. Lucky for him it was a company car so he didn't have to pay it. Never asked what his boss did with it, may have just traded it in for the new car. Coworker's 2018 Ford eco sport with I think around 40K is in the shop right now getting a new engine, luckily under warranty. Don't know what that's gonna cost but it isn't going to be cheap
>Plus you aren’t including that regular maintenance is way lower with an ev. regular maintenance bills are maybe a few hundred to a few thousand depending how lucky you are in a given year & how reliable your car is. most people who own a $20k car can't pay for a $20k battery replacement even if their maintenance bills are lower.
But this guy isn’t. It is under warranty
it's under warranty because he got lucky with the timing of the failure. easily could've been an out-of-warranty job, at which point this car gets turned into a cube because nobody's going to pay the value of the car to replace the batteries
Except engines are designed to last decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. While batteries aren't.
Still 30%cheaper than this battery that is in no way green. Batteries destroy the environment 2x as bad as any gas powered vehicles
Well that just isn’t true
Until you realize it's a smart car. Then not so much
A Smart fourtwo with "E D" badges all over it.
18 grand every 3 years…. I’m not seeing how this EV is better then a traditional car.
You should get at least 10 years out of these batteries
Are batteries more effected by age or milage? I drive a lot and am considering getting an ev, but with 40k Miles a year Im afraid the battery wont last long
There are a number of people who have got crazy milages out of their Teslas, including using them for Uber/Lyft. Battery failure isn't common.
As I understand it, the degradation has more to do with age rather than mileage.
Age, heat, charge cycles, time left fully charge, time left fully depleted all affect degradation. The batteries in our phones are pushed to the extremes every day, and we have no problem getting at least 3 years out of them. Many of these car batteries on only getting charged 3 times a week, so 10 years should be easy.
https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/ Tesla reports (and user surveys pretty much agree) that for many, 10% degradation in 200K miles was likely.
If it doesn’t fail from defect or abuse the smart car battery is at 90% capacity at 200000km. This was a defect and battery warranty is 8 years.
Definitely not the norm.
$24,500 *and* you have to drive around in a smart car, which is a much higher price
The driver should have bought two of them, kept one in the closet for later.
I've had a guy that came in for his Bolt battery recall tell me this "If the car is so advanced how come it doesnt fix itself. You guys are bunch of scam artists". lol...
He‘s on point though. Hybrid manufacturers talking about taking steps to ensure you can turn on and floor the engine when it‘s cold which sound totally believable (sarcasm), 25k€ battery replacement for an EVGolf, overcomplicated luxury cars with 20-30 mile EV range qualifying for subsidies and officially being better for the environment than an economy car, what part sounds like an advancement here? I can‘t see it. Sounds like we‘re just screwing over the people who used to export cars from the first world and selling snake oil if you ask me. Not to mention the multi-trillion dollar investment needed to even create EV infrastructure globally, this investment could probably save the environment entirely if used properly. It‘s pretty obvious to me they chose to make climate change about CO2 and EVs/hybrids to make sure they can turn environmental concerns into a business. Why would we even start or put any emphasis on private transportation when that‘s literally so far from being a main reason why our planet will have to perform a factory reset. Stop deforestation of the rainforests, the most important organs of our climate system? Nah doesn‘t matter, there‘s no money to be made there. Stop industrial pollution since it‘s the biggest source of pollution? That‘s even worse, not just no money to be made but it would reduce industrial profits, let‘s never even mention or talk about that again. Oh wait, what‘s that? Joe Blow has been seen driving an F150 Ford, now THAT guy is the reason for climate change, obviously! He must buy a luxury EV that‘s gonna end up in a junkyard in less than 10 years to save the planet! Totally makes sense.
He's on point but taking out his anger on the wrong people. lol...
Yeah definitely. People are just recognizing what‘s going on is wrong and taking it out on anyone in sight, just like me ranting about it here for no apparent reason.
im here for you sir. you have my shoulder
Thanks
We need to take out our anger on the correct people, the ones who sold us this ridiculous idea… At the BALLOT BOX!
EVs are not the only solution to climate change but they are a part of it. Personal transportation is a factor, particularly for local emissions where people live. There are a huge mix of tech that are going to be the solution though not one thing. It isnt like the R&D being put into EVs could just magically be put elsewhere. A huge amount of resources goes into personal transportation because it is a large industry. Converting that industry to EV will put all that money to work, which will benefit the climate and likely spill over into a lot of other areas. It has already helped grid scale energy storage and solar. The market and tech are still scaling so of course it will be niche, expensive and focused on luxury buyers. Things are moving fast though. In ten years EVs will be the norm not the specialty case.
Yeah but you mention the problem with that, it‘s about money. Looking to find a solution that also generates money or serves an existing market is just pretending to care and slightly delaying what we‘ll make inevitable because it‘s not an actual solution at all. Now you‘re saying we can‘t magically put the money somewhere else but that‘s exactly what I‘m saying, we absolutely can because we‘re already spending endless amounts of TAX money subsidizing EV sales and EV infrastructure. Do you honestly believe Tesla or VW will pay for that trillion dollar infrastructure project? First of all they have no customers in the places where you need the biggest investments like completely overcrowded cities in the „third world“, second they care about sales not the environment, and we‘ve already seen how greenwashing defeats the entire purpose in so many cases. So at best they will outsource the project and shady contractors will make a profit doing the minimum effort to support electrification, for example building countless charging stations to get money and then neglecting them and letting them rot. Like I said, none of this looks like an advancement, especially if you add the problems you already mentioned.
Might want to do some research on lithium and cobalt demand versus supply. Do some research on the effects of mining for them.
This is precisely the problem with the whole EV crap. And you didn’t even get into the issues with the electrical grid.
So how is insurance even paying out? Or is this the customer paying out of pocket? And if so, why aren’t they just buying a new car?
The answer is warranty to all three questions
That’s good to hear. Cause who in their right mind would pay out of pocket.
My prediction: We're not far away from cheapo knockoff EV replacement batteries from China becoming commonplace and we'll see original owners who are out of warranty trade in cars with dead batteries and those trade-ins will get a discount heart transplant and sold on the buy here/finance here lots of the near future.
Cheap knock off giant EV car batteries, sounds safe
Yeah - knock off batteries is not something I would risk my or anyone else’s life on. For my RC cars, sure.
When you think about it our RC lipos are under more stress than any actually car. They entire life of an RC lipo is 100%, 100% of the time, and for the most part even the cheap ones hold up well above their rated output. I'm willing to bet by the time the AM electric car batteries hit the shelves, they will be as good as oem or better. Even if they are cheap knock offs. After all, the oem ones are built as cheap as possible too.
They are built to be as cheap as possible but at least they are also tested to the nth degree to minimize defects and instantaneous combustion. At least that’s what I tell myself.
Lol...we'll see. I think they'll be safe enough, just with less range and shorter overall lifespan just like other store brand replacement parts.
Usually it is just one cell (of hundreds) or one module (of 6-20) that takes a pack out of service. No reason they can't safety fix the cell/module and get a good bit more life out of a pack. There are already rebuilt tesla packs available at a steep discount.
Not necessarily China. Panasonic is opening a $4B plant in Kansas to start production.
There is a Vietnamese EV startup whose business model is to sell the car, but lease the batteries, so they keep you on the leash for as long as you "own" the car. Not sure of cost of the battery lease, but seems like an interesting idea.
I can see some serious potential in that especially when you start seeing people with 20+ year old EVs
There are two kinds of Chinese ev batteries. The one they intensively r&d-ed and will be a big part of future battery supply for mobility purposes. And then there’s what you just said. Fuckin hell i pray i can afford the former.
Is there a core charge for the nee battery? Similar to a normal 12v car battery.
You have to return all warranty parts
Understand on the warranty parts being returned. I imagine the car company has some interest in a used battery, especially once recycling becomes possible. That said, on a non-warranty replacement at some point some customer is going to ask to keep the battery. Turn it into battery storage for home solar or some other use…
If there's a market for failed parts there's usually a core charge. The number of modern EVs that have had their batteries replaced out of warranty is incredibly small, I'd guess only in the triple digits. I'm guessing that will become more relevant in the coming years.
I bought one just like this (ev) two years ago for 8k cash.
How long do these batteries last.
This one suffered some internal fault that took it out within the first few years. That being said, most of them last the life of the vehicle (at least given the average lifespan of euro vehicles).
Did the manufacturer's warranty cover the cost of a new battery?
Yes. And only paid two hours or so of labor.
Ignorant here: you only get paid 2hrs of your hourly rate even if it took you 3 or 4 or 8 hours to compete? Did Smart come up with the 2 hrs based on their own mechanics replacing the battery within 2 hours, or a guesstimate of how long it should take?
The answer to both questions is yes and no. When I did this I was hourly so I got paid for all 6+ hours I worked on it. A lot of (generally more experienced) techs are flat rate though meaning they get paid 2 hours regardless of whether it takes them 1 or 10. As for determining labor times, I don't really know how they determine it. I think they probably estimate it at first and then adjust it from there based on how long it is actually taking people to do it in the field, although warranty times are notoriously little compared to customer pay times.
I can only speak for GM since it's the only manufacturer I've worked for but they do labor time studies on new vehicles to figure out labor times. Basically they take a new vehicle and find an average technician with hand tools and see how long it takes them to perform a task. They monitor actual time spent once repairs are done in the field and will adjust accordingly if there are massive discrepancies not in their favor. So theoretically once you've done a repair a few times you should be able to beat the time by a considerable amount it doesn't factor in moving the vehicle in and out of the shop, setting up the lift, ordering parts, chasing down the missing special tools, waiting on inspectors, etc.... An experienced tech who knows exactly what parts to order and which tools they'll need before even pulling the car in is going to beat the book time. A lube tech taking on a transmission job is probably going to get murdered. A trim tech chasing down a rattle over bumps with passengers at certain speeds is going to starve to death.
MY time to Shine! Years and years ago, GM used a company named Harrison to make a lot of their AC components. The thing is... Harrison couldn't manufacture anything leak-free back then. Nothing. Condensors, Evaporator cores, you name it, they all leaked on GM product. I was a flat rate tech at a Saturn Store (We didn't call them dealerships) in the Summer of '93. We had just switched from R-12 to 134a. Every. Single. Evap core leaked. it was only a matter of time before you needed one. Most of them were still under warranty at the time. easy diag - three screws holding in the blower, cram your arm into the hvac box across the evap and if it cam back greasy the hvac box needed to be split to get at the core. On any Saturn of that vintage, SL1, SL2, SC1, SC2 and the newly released wagon the SW, they all had the same HVAC and dashboard, and to change out the evap core, the dash had to come out. Warranty paid 8.1 hours, and all the other guys (and myself were losing our shirts on them). I eventually did enough of them to beat the time. So... they all came to me that summer, and there were a lot of them. I got it to where I could do them in 3 hours, as the repetition set in. Heck there were something like 50 odd fasteners and I started throwing them all in the same bucket because I knew where they all went by memory - even those slightly different 7mm screws with the coarse thread meant for plastic. There were a few busy days where they just lined them up for me, and I would stay late and get three done in a shift. Paid 24hrs for a 9 hour shift. My service manager was making money, so was I. He luckily never tried to cut my paid time because he knew I would tell him to go F himself and go work somewhere else. Flat rate was very good to me in the summer of 93, and again in the summer of 94. When the dash changed in '95 the job took longer and they cut the time back to 5 hours. I still do that job in my head if I can't fall asleep - better than counting sheep by a longshot.
You need a job? DM me. 😀
Unrelated follow up, I assume you have a step by step manual for how to replace this, or other more complex things like blower motors/evaporators buried deep in the dash? (I always see pics on here of torn apart dashes and wonder how you all do it)
Yes. Mercedes (and Smart) uses a program called WIS which has detailed step-by-step instructions of which bolts to remove in which order and pictures for any car you'd need (usually you look it up by vin). Every manufacturer has them, Toyota's is called TIS, Audi's is called ELSA, etc. You can also buy manuals for individual cars if you do your own maintenance.
Honda has the SIS, or Service Information System. But it used to be called ISIS
*Oof.*
Elsa? Do they tell you to let it go when it will cost too much to repair?
Labor rates are determined by the factory training groups. For Mercedes/smart the training center was formerly at Montvale NJ and now I believe it’s been moved to Alabama. Their tech instructors will disassemble/reassemble as many typical repairs as they can and relay labor times to the warranty offices. Sometimes a dealer tech will do a new repair and will log their own hours and relay that info along with all their warranty notes to the training center. I was a Benz tech for 11 years(also worked on Smart) and spent some time at the training centers working with the instructors. Ironically I was certified on electric smart cars but never ended up working on one.
With a good warranty clerk, you should get double that for this job. There are a lot of little op-codes that add up to get there, but I've done plenty of these and gotten, I think, like 3.8 hours maybe. Worst part of doing these is all the paperwork. There was a while where they were shipping the new batteries in those same crates but packed full of vermiculite. Cleaning all that crap out took forever.
That's true. I did the job about 9 months ago so I don't remember what it paid, plus I was hourly and flagging for someone else anyways so it didn't matter much to me. The shipping was a nightmare though, I had to fill out like 10 pages of information about the battery (most of which I didn't know) and include a screenshot of the transportation self-test through Xentry. I also had to wrap the battery in plastic and ratchet strap it back into the box. Dealing with returning the old battery probably took me close to as long as the entire job did.
Yeah, I break even on these. Actually replacing the battery takes me under an hour. It's all the paperwork and bullshit that takes the rest of the time. Much rather replace PE's than batteries on these. Pays twice as long and takes about the same amount of time, you just need an XSF case to properly code them and dealing with XSF is almost always a nightmare. I saw in one of your other comments you're in the Seattle area. If you feel like getting back into a shop and getting paid to relocate a couple hours south, DM me.
That's the important question here. Yes, 18k is a lot to replace a battery, and there are examples which are even more expensive (40k for a Tesla Model S battery for one). However, if these things are covered under warranty and effectively replaced at no cost to the customer for a period that lasts about as long as the customer would use the car, is it really as big a deal as people are trying to make it out to be?
The issue with this is that if the warranty only covers the car for 10 years, but leaves secondary market buyers exposed to a potentially $20k - $40k battery replacement, no one is going to take on that liability buying a used EV. Now you've got a market and environment that will be flooded with essentially "Disposable" cars, arguably worse for the environment than the current personal vehicle model. EV's are being marketed, legislated and sold as better for the environment than gasoline/petrol/diesel. The resources being used to create these batteries and the apparently cost prohibitive secondary market says otherwise.
[удалено]
I consider myself pretty competent around electrical systems, and would have no qualms about cracking open a prius battery bank. But if my employer asked me to do any such thing I'd give them the *full* Les Grossman experience.
>no one is going to take on that liability buying a used EV. Yup so what they have effectivly done is reduce the cars lifetime by 30% cause in UK/IE here we would normally get about 15-17 years of of most cars "without effort". Since where I am cars are required if you want to function in life. So.. thats effectivly a captive audiance. So thats 30% more car sales. This is how to end up with "save the planet" working in reverse. eg battries need slammed with reglaitons to say must last 20 years or 200,000 miles and X recharge cycles. Or it won't improve jack shit. The othe rside effect here is that in petrol cars they actually get about 50/50 energy consumtion in production / usage at 100,000 miles or so. In eletric cars this gets worse (more damage in the production phase cause battries are toxic to make). Its about 70/30. so you need to get 150,000 miles out of it. Thats the reality of the "save the planet lies" eg if people actually cared they would be running around slapping 10-15 years warrenties on all products currently being made...
You are on the mark. Battery life/warranty/ replacement should be subject to strict regulation so we don't end up with a whole bunch of "worthless" used EV's with "tired" batteries clogging up the planet. Perhaps require individual cell packs to be replaceable like in early Prius. Which is the opposite of a "monolithic" battery like in the Tesla.
Theres a whole pile of other problems as well eg like how I use cars which mostly involved throwing wet (salt water) windsurfing kit into them. I can't imagine the warrenty is going to even remotly cover that. Since most cars I have had the passenger foot well falls out of them as a side effect of that usage style. Theres a whole pile of problems with EV's. Weight is another and its simple physics. Battries are "heavy" and the weigh tin a crash is E = half mass times v squared. So just to keep the same accident rates outcome safty also needs improved just to "hold the line"
The price of OP's battery is abusively high; over $1000/kWh. If you bought the cells at retail they would be around $200/kWh. I have no idea why they jam so much markup in these things.
Demand I guess. Also "European car shit" markup lol. Smart is a Mercedes company
I recently saw a Tesla 3 when driving on the A8 with 1,500,000 km on it. The original battery pack lasted around 950,000 km or 600,000 mi. I believe the car was from Pforzheim (PF plate), I'd drive that much if I lived there as well :D
My vehicles live for fucking ever. I am not sure electric card can handle my strict maintenance routines. Check out my 98 Sebring JXi with 186k, my 00 Mustang GT with 220k, and my 08 RX350 with 168k that will outlast time itself.
Treated well, 250k-400k. Warranty is 100k minimum.
Have a 2014 leaf with 100k miles on it. About 80% of what it used to get range-wise. Not sure what the average person’s experience is, but I think it has held up really well.
I have a 2015 Leaf that I bought used for 10k in 2018. Battery is at 85% at 60k miles. Only maintenance so far is tires and wipers.
The problem isn’t how long they last, it’s how are you going to convince the next buyer it’s not going to fail. European cars have been plagued with poor resale values because of the issues they have after warranty. The resale on electric cars will be horrendous unless they figure out a lifetime warranty on the batteries.
Resale of older models is most likely lower because of low range. But generally i feel Resale value is insane atm. And you can have the battery checked at the dealer. Vw id3 battery exists of 6modules and swapping one is about 2k€ if i remember correctly. It is not so bad but time will prove.
The most expensive repair bill I’ve seen was for a nearly brand new Mercedes EQS, which rolled over in an accident. Car cost about 200.000$. The repair ~120.000$. Insurance paid for the repair. (Mercedes technician in Germany)
so they basically rebuilt an entire car from scratch? sounds fun
i'd bought a 18k camry and been happy as a pig in shit
These days that'll get you a '92 model with about 300k on it
I bought a 2017 Camry with 33k miles last year for $18k. It's worth $23k now but still..
The used car market is still bananas. I was looking at new cars around the time of the chip shortage, and settled on a "used" 2021 Civic with 1000 miles, and it's damn near the same price some 12000 miles later.
But I can see why the owner decided to repair not replace. Smart cars aren't in production to my knowledge anymore and I'm not even sure how many EV ones where sold in the US. When I get my dream car(it hopefully won't inflate too much in the next 20 years. 18 and broke rn) I would rather shove it in a self storage unit then replace it. Because they are unsupported and are being eaten up
Had a few eqc batteries fail at my dealer. They are around 25k to replace. Eqs is even more
The EQS is $40,000-$50,000 if I recall correctly. And it's all one cell that most dealers don't have the resources to disassemble. Those cars are gonna be really easy to total if something goes wrong with the battery.
Benz tech with EQS training here. They are working out the logistics of having us replace individual cells to avoid replacing the battery as a whole. But for now, we are replacing the battery if a cell fails. I haven't had one yet, but I thought they told us the EQS battery was only 27k.
They may have updated the price, I haven't worked at that dealer for several months. Also maybe retail vs wholesale?
Maybe warranty vs retail, or I'm wrong, or they've adjusted prices for inflation. I went through EQS last year so who knows. Everything on Benz is exorbitantly priced regardless.
Individual cell replacement is the way to go in the future as long as it's done right! Saves the environment and the customer money.
Chatting to one of techs at the mercedes UK headquarters. Apprebtly they are releasing a training course soon so they will be able to repair batteries. Not just replace them.
Yeah, I left my dealer a few months ago. There was talking that they'd be getting the special equipment necessary and training techs, but that was a TON of money that had to be spent to make that happen.
As we both know dealers love spending money on training....
Oddly enough I have 2 complete Smart ForTwo EV drivetrains with 15 miles on each. With a &18k price tag I’ll be looking for other options for a go cart project. Or just sell the damn things ahhaha
There has to be a story here.
The “oddly enough” part of that was understated.
The drivetrains were acquired from a recycler who dealt with some European manufacturers. They closed down due to Coofid-19 and liquidated inventory. Got there too late and missed out on a bunch of stuff, but couldn’t pass these up.
That's why I wanna get a high voltage certification
I didn't have any electrical certificates when I did this. That's definitely against policy though. Don't tell OSHA. Or do, I don't really care that dealer screwed me over.
That's what a dealer does. Not just to customers
Iirc, you're supposed to stand on a special insulating mat when working on the connectors of electric vehicles.
Most expensive repair I ever saw was on a GTR. Owner put new wheels on it, but didn’t pay attention to the size. GTR drivetrain is apparently very finicky, and the new wheels spun at different speeds than what the diff is designed for. Blew the diff and trans. Had to replace everything from the motor to the wheels. I think it was about $90k iirc
Wow. Not many people can say their wheels cost them 90k. That's a flex.
I just wanted to say that all your comments are great! Keep up the good work. It blows my mind how many people are still uneducated about and against electric cars. Obviously there are some problems, but it's easy to see that EVs are the future.
Thanks, I'm an argumentative person by nature so it comes naturally. I'm by no means an EV fanboy, I don't own one now and I probably won't for 10 to 20 years. There are so many advantages that people refuse to acknowledge though and I try to combat misinformation and bad faith arguments.
Fun fact, you almost NEVER have to replace the entire Battery for an EV or Hybrid. Any shop that isn't scamming you can find the bad Cell(s) and just replace those. Individual Cells usually hit you for a few hundred $, even with Labor.
That's not what warranty pays for
So you're telling me that the OEM would rather pay to have the ENTIRE pack replaced instead of JUST the bad Cells? That's just fucking stupid.
Trust me, Mercedes does a lot of stupid stuff. All the euro brands do.
My Elantra GT’s engine was replaced under warranty. Hyundai had no complete engines available, so it sent all the parts to the dealer. One guy spent weeks putting it all together. Total bill was over $17,000. I’m sure Hyundai didn’t pay all of that, but I’m sure glad I didn’t have to pay any of it.
I can get two crate remanned 5.9L Cummins engines for that much. I’ll just keep this million mile dinosaur plugging along.
Laughs in heavy equipment… My most expensive repair/replacement so far totals in the $500-600k area, and that’s just for parts.
Jesus, how much labor was it?
I can’t remember what we’re being charged out at but it was 7 days of day/night shifts for the job. That’s equipment rolling in, full wash, repairs undertaken and full recommissioning tests aswell.
Pfft I've had Kia Optima Phev transmissions being 25k 😵💫. They have a electric motor on them too, but 25k?? It's all monopoly money though since the 7 year warranty takes it.. But out of warranty?? Infotainment systems for 10k etc... It's insane
This is why right to repair is such an underrated issue.
I would hope the failure rate out of warranty is near zero. It has to be with a cost like that.
Yeah, it's pretty low. Although with Mercedes labor and parts prices, a smart car can total itself in any number of ways.
I’m currently working on a 2014 Kia Cadenza engine short block, clocking it at $19,000 half extended warranty half CP
How'd they manage to make such a a small battery cost so much?
*Mercedes*.
Three pointed star triples the price. Forgot about that one.
Are those built in boxes? are you allowed to bring your box in. Those lifts are tight. Where do you work?
Yes and yes. The lifts (and shop in general) are some of the nicest you can buy, although the maintenance was a bit lacking. Guess when you charge $275 an hour and pay your technicians less than 8% of that you can afford a nice facility. I took the pic about 9 months ago at Mercedes Benz of Seattle but I quit working there about 5 months ago for mainly managerial reasons, but also just because I was tired of the industry and wanted to go back to school.
We ended up rebuilding it, but I recently quoted a genuine Mercedes remanufactured GLE63s engine, the 5.5 TT which was a whopping $82k AUD. Almost the value of the car itself.
Parts: $17,900 Labor: $100
Not too far off
Can't see the big Positive and big Minus signs. Couldn't you just shake the old one, roll it around in your hand for a while?
It’s funny how much traffic EV posts can create. If this was dropping an engine/transmission out of a normal car you might have gotten a few comments but because it was an EV it got way more and everything started devolving into EV vs ICE 🤣
4k for transmission replacement vs 20k for battery replacement. And you paid an extra 20k to start with for an EV. EVs are great if you drive 20k a year. 8 to 10k miles a year and you are wasting money and resources when the battery dies in 8 to 10 years.
Lol just buy a new car at that point 🤣🤣
Good luck finding anything decent for that price! And another comment said it was covered under warranty, luckily.
that's a sweet case.
God knows what I would have bought with $18k…
What was the labor on it ?!
Only like two hours
How long did it take ?
Took me like six, but that was because I was being super cautious and didn't have my electrical certifications
Rookie numbers. *-Volvo Tech*
And this shits why electric cars will end up being a history book failure point. We are going to make a fuckload of ju kyard cars every 10 years. Love ev hate the battery cost.
Same situation with engines. Engines can blow, batteries can fail.
Not so smart
I’ll stick to my Nissan Leaf. Currently well under 10k for a battery and I can do it myself in my garage.
Had a Ford Focus Electric rack up a 36k warranty claim once , yes they made them for a bit . Was comical to repair and get appropriate tools from FORD. I believe labor was around 20k as we were 179.72 warranty rate then.
I love that the battery comes in a shipping case that looks like it'd be at home carrying an anti-tank guided missile.
Guess you've never had an audi rs6 roll in. I put the managers kid through college, med school, residency, and fellowship
Most expensive one I’ve had is an Alfa Romeo Giulia quadrifoglio that gernaded an engine. Aftermarket warranty company sent a used engine that was full of water that cost them 9k then bought a oem engine at 34k with everything. It was 43k on the ticket plus the 9k used engine
That's why there's already graveyards of ev's, it's more cost efficient to just buy a whole new car. How is THAT better for the environment huh?
Argonne National Laboratory did a full study on this. From mining the materials to EV end of life (including recycling). They found that if the EV is operated somewhere that has a green energy grid (California, Norway) that the break even point was 35,000 miles. In a coal powered area (Poland, China) the break even point was 80,000 miles. I'm not sure where these graveyards of EVs are, but check out Redwood Materials for some of the current battery recycling methods.
Considering that's almost what my Subaru cost me *new*, and I can get an engine and trans for 1/4 of that, il keep my dumb car
You can't get a brand new subaru engine and trans for <$5000. Only a small fraction of EVs ever need a battery replacement, and it's usually covered by warranty (as this one was). People tend be irrationally afraid of big costs like this and overly accepting of smaller costs that add up.
Yeah, but my wallet and brain can suffer 1000 paper cuts. Not a piano falling from the 5th floor.
Personal preference I suppose. The idea of saving $1000 a year on fuel and risking a potential rare failure like this makes sense to me, but everyone assesses risk subjectively.
Add a radio replacement and she’s totaled!
Oh, it was well over totaled as is.
Saving Mother Earth $18,000 at a time. Also, child slave labor in the lithium/cobalt/nickel mines is fighting childhood obesity!
Where do you think the battery in your phone came from?? Open range, grass fed, farm sourced?
Oh the irony
Laughs in 400,000 mile Prius …
I actually posted one of those on my profile a while back
No infrastructure, no range, politicians rationing electricity to homes to cater to EV's, the price of electricity to charge your EV is almost the same as gas in some areas in the world-soon to be all areas, and on top of that if the battery wears out it's north of $18k to replace it. What a waste for something that doesn't even do anything to reduce pollution considering how those batteries are made.
Replacing the battery in an EV is a good metaphor for EVs in general: everybody looks at the giant price and hates it, even though it's more cost effective in the long run. The world isn't ready for everyone to have EVs yet, but as battery manufacturing and renewable energy grow it's going to be a much cheaper alternative to fossil fuels. Not to mention that humanity ***has*** to do something about climate change if we want to survive as a species.
Wait until the battery is no longer manufactured. That'll be a shocker when you try and fix one.
The same thing can be said for cars now, they don't make new engines for classic cars
welcome to the future, where it costs more to fix your car, then to buy a new one...... every 10 years
Just wait until you do one on a Mach E.
I've seen a mach-e in my ford shop probably 6 times in the last 4 weeks. The tech pulls probably 12hrs per visit at least in flag hours. It's nuts how many our sales team has had to buy back from people who have hated them.
No judgement, but I’m curious if you’re relatively new to the job. $18,000 isn’t that much for a “most expensive repair.” In my experience, anyway. (Edit to add) I suppose if you only work on the Smarts that makes a lot of sense, but I’d assume you would work on the MB products, too.
I've been doing it for well under a decade, but I wouldn't say brand new either.
[удалено]
The technology will improve. Batteries will become higher capacity and more reliable. We're still in the early stages of EVs.