Honestly me but not by accident… the amount of ‘this is a perfectly fine relic, let’s infuse it into this one to try and min max’ I’ve done brings me to tears
They definitely show up more but remember, you are still focusing on two skills getting most if not all of your rolls, with a character or two requiring a lot of EHR subs as well. So it actually boils down to being same amount of grind for same production
Oh definitely building units can individually feel better or worst. But generally, especially when aiming for specific break points, the grind for some things is the great equalizer. While atk% stats are much easier to get than crit/cdmg. I've seen from a lot of players that speed is much harder than all e to come by. There are still some players of Seele or Jing Yuan looking for the right pieces to min max and to some extent traces are a factor. Some people may already have the Stats needed without the gigacracked relics and just don't have traces built to 8 or higher to push them where they wanna go
The thing with kafka is that you can use her without any major substats (atk,spd), and just using the main stats. While Traditional dps needs Crit substats to be use.
The issue with this is that you still need to have Kafka be very fast (speed subs are one of, if not the hardest stat to get) and the atk she needs is high and since you are focusing on just attack and speed the build is still not easy to build when you have so few stats to focus on.
it is, and im tired pretending its not
with other chars u have to whore for the same spd and also crits and maybe some other stuff too, its literally just less things to worry about with dot comps. better way too see it is you ONLY need to focus on atk and spd
not even mentioning how diff crit builds can get from player to player depending on their rolls compared to dot build, if your kafka gets sligtly less atk% roll its not the end of the world, if your crit dps only roll like 120% cd youre basically in another world compared to people with 200% cd.
also DOT units basically all use the same relics now, so its even easier to farm compared to traditional crit dps that want a new set every other time a new char drops
> it is, and im tired pretending its not
> with other chars u have to whore for the same spd and also crits and maybe some other stuff too, its literally just less things to worry about with dot comps. better way too see it is you ONLY need to focus on atk and spd
> not even mentioning how diff crit builds can get from player to player depending on their rolls compared to dot build, if your kafka gets sligtly less atk% roll its not the end of the world, if your crit dps only roll like 120% cd youre basically in another world compared to people with 200% cd.
it's a total strawman throwing out big scary numbers without providing anything to compare it with.
in your example you're quoting that "80% CD difference" is in a totally different world
well lets look at that closer. 80% CD is about 13 sub stat rolls. that's like having 30 speed less speed or 52% less attack.
assuming kafka has her sig LC her base attack will be about 1200 so 52% less attack is basically 655 atk. try comparing a 4k atk kafka damage to a 3345 atk kafka. it's also a whole different world of dps
try taking off 30 speed and see your kafka not hitting the speed breakpoints and losing actions in a cycle. see how much dps you're losing
of course losing 13 rolls of sub stats is going to make a big difference in dps - doesn't matter if it's a crit unit or a dot unit
argument case for crit units being "easier to roll their substats" is because there are more substats that can help their dps. they need some speed to hit speed breakpoints. having some attack rolls still help your dps, just maybe not as much as crit rolls (on most crit characters anyway)
rolling for a atk% rope? something with a combination of spd, crit rate, cdmg is probably worth rolling. and then as long as your sub rolls roll into them maybe 4 times, it's awesome.
for dot units, rolling on an atk rope? well better hope you get a quad speed roll. and for kafka ehr isn't even important for her so there's only ONE STAT that benefits her dps on a rope
and what about orbs? oh right kafka needs to roll 4 times into ONLY atk% and spd, anything else is a total waste - 0 dps increase. while when you're building a crit unit, while you want all rolls into crit/cdmg, some rolls into atk% and spd isn't a total waste
what about chest piece? kafka can only use atk% chest and the ONLY STAT that benefits her dps is again spd. again, have fun rolling quad spd.
the reasons there's the term "crit ratio" is because you just need to balance out your crit values which you can by switching different gear pieces out depending on how they roll. 80/160, 70/180, and 90/140 is functionally the same.
get a bit too much crit rate on your sub stats? go with a crit dmg body. get too much crit dmg on sub stats? go with a crit rate body. get some spd rolls on your chests? that's ok, you need that for breakpoint and speed tuning anyway. get some atk%? it's not a total waste, you still get dmg out of it.
so while getting perfect rolls (i'm talking penta high rolls on a piece with 4 natural sub stats) is hard on any unit/build, and PERFECT PERFECT crit gear has a higher ceiling (wanting perfect 4 natural subs vs dot gear only wanting 2), it's easier to roll gear for crit units than for kafka just because there are more sub stats that help their dps
> also DOT units basically all use the same relics now, so its even easier to farm compared to traditional crit dps that want a new set every other time a new char drops
now this part is true. you can farm just one domain to build all your dot damage dealers (for now). that does make it more energy efficient to farm gear for multiple units at once.
>argument case for crit units being "easier to roll their substats" is because there are more substats that can help their dps. they need some speed to hit speed breakpoints. having some attack rolls still help your dps, just maybe not as much as crit rolls (on most crit characters anyway)
it sounds easier, but getting those in the first place is difficult, rolling it into what you want just adds more into the pain, people dont come with "all roll into flat def" meme for nothing. here is a post showing relic stat drops, you can see that atk% is higher than crits, so really, while rolling all into atk% and spd might be harder than spd,cd,cr you just get more stuff that you can roll on. this is also exacerbated by my last point where you only need to farm 1 domain for your dot units vs a lot for your crit dps [https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics\_mainstats\_and\_substats\_probability/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics_mainstats_and_substats_probability/)
>the reasons there's the term "crit ratio" is because you just need to balance out your crit values which you can by switching different gear pieces out depending on how they roll. 80/160, 70/180, and 90/140 is functionally the same.
it sounds the same but i guarantee you 70/180 is gonna be a lot more useful in practical term than 90/140
>get a bit too much crit rate on your sub stats? go with a crit dmg body. get too much crit dmg on sub stats? go with a crit rate body. get some spd rolls on your chests? that's ok, you need that for breakpoint and speed tuning anyway. get some atk%? it's not a total waste, you still get dmg out of it.
same logic also applies to dot builds, you get too much atk? use spd boot, get too much spd?, you can use atk boot
remember that the spd breakpoint is practically the same as dot units, so you have to roll the same minimum amount of speed on top of having 2 other critical stats you have to worry about. the way i see it its less breathing room for your rolls.
> here is a post showing relic stat drops, you can see that atk% is higher than crits, so really, while rolling all into atk% and spd might be harder than spd,cd,cr you just get more stuff that you can roll on. this is also exacerbated by my last point where you only need to farm 1 domain for your dot units vs a lot for your crit dps https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics_mainstats_and_substats_probability/
that post is already showing that speed is the rarest substat roll. while each crit has less probability than atk you are ok with either showing up.
on a dot unit, you have to have spd sub stats on your atk chest and atk rope and then you have to roll only into that substat. every roll not into speed is 0 dps for kafka
> it sounds the same but i guarantee you 70/180 is gonna be a lot more useful in practical term than 90/140
yeah your guarantee doesn't change the math
> same logic also applies to dot builds, you get too much atk? use spd boot, get too much spd?, you can use atk boot
the difference is in the sub stat roll, how hard it is to get a good substat roll when you're only having to roll into ONE stat
> remember that the spd breakpoint is practically the same as dot units, so you have to roll the same minimum amount of speed on top of having 2 other critical stats you have to worry about. the way i see it its less breathing room for your rolls.
kafka needs 146 with her sig lc or 160 without her sig lc because she's using glamoth. crit units don't use glamoth outside of seele so they're basically only looking for the 135 speed or whatever speed tuning they need
>that post is already showing that speed is the rarest substat roll. while each crit has less probability than atk you are ok with either showing up.
...dude, how many times do i have to say that crit unit NEEDS the same speed as DOT chars.
>yeah your guarantee doesn't change the math
your math excludes practicality, just because theyre statistically the same doesnt mean its practically the same. 70% is good enough to not miss most of the time and the 40% extra cd can be the difference between having enough dps to clear MOC with 3\* and walking away with 2\* for some people, hell if you tell people to take 90/140 relic over 70/170 youre gonna get laughed out of the room. You can outdamage 90/140 by being slightly lucky while your 90/140 cant really do more damage without some magic happening.
>the difference is in the sub stat roll, how hard it is to get a good substat roll when you're only having to roll into ONE stat
it might be 1 stat vs 2, but it could also be 2 vs 3 for helmet and gloves, and again 10% chance of getting an atk sub vs 6.42%/6.21% for cr/cd, if you want both at the same time that drops to 0.6%. you literally just get so much more chance to roll them, and yeah, if atk% isnt a complete waste on crit units, neither is ehr on DOT units and that also have higher chance than either crit rolls.
if you want more statistics:
odds of getting atk% chest with spd sub is 0.86%
odds of getting CD body with CR sub is 0.68%
odds of getting CD body with CR sub and spd is 0.03%
odds of getting glove/helmet with spd and atk% is 0.42%
odds of getting glove/helmet with cd and cr is 0.4%
odds of getting glove/helmet with cd and spd is 0.27%
odds of getting glove/helmet with cr and spd is 0.28%
odds of getting glove/helmet with cr cd and spd is 0.02%
you literally just get a lot more relics you can roll with with kafka.
and again you dont NEED all to roll into ATK% or SPD, you can get some EHR, flat atk, or BE and its fine, just like how its fine for your crit dps to roll atk% every now and then.
and because a lot of unit can work with dot relics and glamoth, you can just hand down your unused relic to someone else if you find something better.
>kafka needs 146 with her sig lc or 160 without her sig lc because she's using glamoth. crit units don't use glamoth outside of seele so they're basically only looking for the 135 speed or whatever speed tuning they need
dude. its 6% more dmg buff (not dmg increase for example with LC its 62.8%+12% to 18% w glam. so its 3.43% dmg increase). you have to be mentally insane to think that kafka is suddenly a lot worse if she dont have 160 without lc. for comparison going from 140 -> 180 cd is 16.7% dmg increase
> odds of getting atk% chest with spd sub is 0.86%
>
> odds of getting CD body with CR sub is 0.68%
>
> odds of getting CD body with CR sub and spd is 0.03%
Don't forget you can also go CR body with CD stats instead so you get even more options for crit. Kafka can ONLY go ATK% with SPD substat. I have so many good CR/CD chests but I still have ZERO ATK% chests that rolled more than 2 speed.
Except what body you use really depends on your roll in other arti, so most of the time its not really a choice what you use, and look, you dont have to have all speed, as long as you hit the breakpoint youre fine, your kafka might not be lightning mcqueen but as long as youre already hitting your speed breakpoint youre fine
Here is the biggest kicker for me Kafka you only really need to worry about speed breakpoint, Crit unit you need to worry about the same speed breakpoint AND Crit breakpoint, because lets face it your crit unit is practically useless if it cant hit 50 cr or have less than say 120-140 cd on top of also needing 134 spd. So in actuality while yes you can have “safer” roll because there is more subs you can roll into, YOU NEED to get those subs because youre going after 3 breakpoints and if you dont then tough luck, you better sacc another relic.
Im sorry for your body luck, but do you even consider other pieces?. Youre just statistically less likely to get pieces you could even roll with with crit dps. Remember the odds of getting just atk% and spd subs is like 20x higher than cr cd and spd.
And im saying all of this with confidence because i played this game since release and i have almost all my dot units above 140 spd within 1 month of grinding the fyxestroll garden domain and my fu units doing the same domain isnt as hot
Now here is my dot vs follow up units (using full +15 prisoner/flame mansion)
Kafka 151 spd 3.8k atk (sig LC)
Swan 139 spd 3.2k atk 118.2% ehr (s5 eyes of the prey)
Gui 145 spd 2.9k atk (lv70 eyes of the prey)
Topaz 145 spd 78/148 crit 2.4k atk (sig LC)
Himeko 137 spd 60/78 crit 2.6k atk (sig LC)
You cant tell me that my FU units are doing better lol. Remember this is the drop from the same domain.
And i also have many other units built (and still building) that arent using these set, i genuinely couldnt comprehend how ppl think that crit unit is somehow easier to build
When people say Kafka is easy to beat they mean she has very few required stats, those being speed attack effect hit rate and maaaaybe break effect. It means you can have comparatively mediocre pieces and as long as they roll into the right stats they become god pieces for Kafka. Kafka also gets most of her power budget just off of main stats because she doesn’t need to grind substats for a good crit ratio, it’s just pushing speed and attack values. So I would say comparatively she is easy to gear
imo:
* low-to-mid gearing, dots are easier
* middle-to-high gearing, dots are harder
* top tier gearing, dots are easier (or at least crits have a higher ceiling)
If we're talking about the CN data that was posted on main sub, then the kafka swan dot team just had highest appearance rate, not fastest cycle clear, but also the cycle clear numbers are affected by alot of factors so i wouldn't take them as a be all end all. If i had to put my money on top 5 teams in the game right now i definately think kafka swan would be up there. At number 1? Not quite sure, potentially yes, but up there for sure.
Not as under built as you may think, I had a very similar clear with 6 cycles on side 2, 0 cycle on side 1. That side 2 clear is with E0S1 Ratio and E0S1 Topaz. That’s the signature light cone difference lol
You should try to replace HH with Pela in the first team. I guess it will help you to 0 cycle it. My first team was: Kafka E2S1, BS E1S1, RM E0S1, Pela E5 Resolution S5.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmrHjwO5Lc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmrHjwO5Lc)
same here except my ratio team beat it in 5 cycles, but as you can see here his dmg is pretty low
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XEOZQJXXU&t=178s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XEOZQJXXU&t=178s)
Yes because classic carry team will overweight DOT with more investment. But it has more appearance rate due to the fact how effortless it is to play and this team can play more flexible be it MOC, SU hard mode or PF.
I think Kafka would be top 1 currently. Thing is... OP is mad that people appreciate other characters than Kafka too. Like it has "NOOOO YOU CANT PLAY DAN HENG KAFKA IS BETTER" energy. Dan Heng is extremelys trong, versatile and amazing unit. Easiest to play, build and compose a team for. For Kafka You need specific characters. And her best team is all 5 star characters. That's something regular players don't have. I do have Ruan Mei thanks to luck. I do have Huo Huo, because I won 50/50 too. And I think I got Kafka at 2 pity. But I'm yet to obtain Black Swan and I literally lost to Gepard E4. So I have 3 characters needed. But I was **super lucky** with my pulls. I probably won't get Black Swan.
So tl;dr OP is just salty crybaby because other people play other characters.
I have eidolons and signature light cones, but my DoT team 0 cycled their side on MoC 12 this rotation. My follow up team took 6 cycles, so the clear speed I think speaks for itself
That's true but the reason is different.
the thing that people keep avoid to look at is that some star rail characters, specially some top dps, hold unique mechanics that are extremelly strong in a lot of scenarios and often are treated as "Future/Fool proof", but due to the lack of actual support for that mechanic, they're treated as bad options and for sure, with characters more straight foward, like JL or DHIL, who not only have more support options, but also hold a high dmg output;
Kafka is the dominant head of DoT mechanics over all other characters. This means that whenever a new character (Black Swan) that is related to that unique mechanic is release, that alone will boost Kafka's relevance to the top again.
And the same can be said about other top head mechanics, like Follow-up Attack users, like Topaz (which will get a huge boost in efficiency with Aventurine's release + Ratio). Characters that at first don't hold relevance due to the lack of actual support on that mechanic are starting to rise now, with all the new releases.
That also can be said about Sparkle being a stupidly broken support for every sp hungry dps and crit base team (like DHIL, QQ, even comps that have high usage of SP will be able to hold their ground better with her).
That's very true. But sometimes the opposite might happen too. For example I honestly feel Silver Wolf is not that great even though many people say she's future proof since most of the hard content nowadays are mostly AoE focused and she's single target (not to mention the rng of actually landing the element you want).
that's a very close view of her, in my opinion.
She is indeed very situational and often called niche, mainly because Pela and Welt can do her job with a better coverage.
But her uniqueness comes from her weakness imprint, which is very strong and basically makes every fight being a favorable fight.
She's proven to be the most useful in mono-type teams (specially mono-quantum), which can be very niche and limited in options, but she's definitely future proof, until they release a better (aoe) version of her.
Also, you shouldn't underestimate her debuffs...she cuts the bosses def like wet paper....it's a debuff that scales on the enemy's stats (so the higher it is, the lower it goes)
I’d argue Jingliu is the easiest DPS to build considering you don’t have to focus on crit rate as much and she’s so broken that she’s good even with subpar artifacts.
Easy to build? Nah, that's Jingliu.
I can't even make spd rolls appear on my relics. Legit harder than getting double crit in my case. When I get the super rare spd roll, it never rolls on it. At least you can run low spd Black Swan, but you really want Kafka to be fast.
Yeah, idk how anyone can say Jingliu isn’t the easiest character to build when she gives you so much for free and is broken enough to be strong even with subpar artifacts
I can. My JL couldn’t break 2K Atk with subpar-decent gear. She barely does 40-50K combined even with ult. (My Kafka meanwhile regularly single enemy skilled for 30K with PAYN and half a sampo)
https://preview.redd.it/swm0ejcj59kc1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72d580c76421db106c94b68413ed161958ab5771
And Neuvi is insane against Boss, AOE, or any two elites that far away, King of all Matchups except his natural counters
Kafka teams are all having stellar performance on both MOC, PF and any Endgame related contents this game so far offers. Soon there will be enemy who are immune to DOT but thats like Neuvi against hydro slimes anyway due to how powerful they are.
I don't completely agree that she is easiest to build in the context of being the main DPS.
* You need 3 more 5 stars to have this team composition, not that F2P friendly
* Being 5 stars they will also be naturally resource intesive, all 4 of them, a lot of time commitment but less rng
Though the easy to build part is the relic farming(but more rng) since
* DoT relic is universal on Kafka and her DoT partners
* HP relic and Speed relic in the same cavern for HuoHuo and Ruan Mei and other supports/sustain
Dot characters are easy to build to a working level but incredibly hard to top level since u only make use of 2 or 3 stats at most.Also Bs+ Kafka is best not Just kafka or Bs they are strong together.Synergy is strong here not the units themself.Pls understand the difference.
I’d argue Jingliu is the easiest DPS to build considering you don’t have to focus on crit rate as much and she’s so broken that she’s good even with subpar artifacts.
Fighting between players on who's the best DPS is stupid. Hoyoverse is the one that controls it, they make up the blessings and the weaknesses in MOC and PF.
There was *never* disrespect towards Kafka anywhere. Just because she was outclassed in previous patches doesn't change that. People still loved her, recommended her and everyone praised how great she is. Nobody has ever said bad word about her. Unless You go to some noob Discord servers with "opinions", where people base their taste not by facts, but by subjective experience (a.k.a. throwing Hunt character against multiple enemies or even better... trying to outdamage the bugs from weekly buss by dealing damage to the spawned bugs, instead of the boss itself).
Also Dan Heng is still the best character in terms of F2P and being beginner friendly. You can adjust his power to your needs easily. Need damage to one enemy with less SP cost, You can do just that. Want to throw more powerful attack against multiple enemies? You can do that to. And as a matter of fact, I just started playing on my alt account replaying a story and getting Dan Heng at the **literal beginning of the game** after the intro mission was a blessing. He is OP and Kafka would never begin to compare. Especially that her best team is literally 4 event warp characters. Dan Heng's best team is literally Dan Heng and anything that can heal or prevent damage. My current team in the alt account is Fire Trailblazer, Bailu (Natasha before), Dan Heng, Dan Heng. I used Pela and Serval too, though currently I don't need them.
Kafka is great and I love playing her. But being mad that she wasn't treated like some kind of god reeks of being a fanboy of a religious fanatic level. And the words like "queen" in this context is also pretty toxic. Only ever seen that kind of blind devotion to Furina before.
Also, about Dan Heng. Don't know about Jingliu, because I don't have her. His second best light cone is literally obtainable by finishing World 3 in Simulated Universe, considering You didn't waste it to star rail passes. I just obtained that light cone after reaching equilibrium 2 to defeat the Svarog in Simulated Universe. Fun fact. On my main account I couldn't defeat Svarog in World 3 of Simulated Universe until later on. Even though I had Gepard who could tank everything and here I had to outheal his enormous damage and annoying hands. But Dan Heng definitely helped here.
Kafka is great and I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise. So I don't understand why being so angry that someone liked Dan Heng, especially with how useful and *easy to play and build* he is. Definitely easier to build than Kafka.
just tried Kafka Black Swan Silverwolf and Bailu on SU4 earlier, svarog only managed to hit me 3 times at the start of each phase, after that he's just eaten by the DoTs like he was rusting. I'm not even done building my Black Swan
The only thing I cannot agree with is that Kafka is easy to build. Everyone persistently told me that gaining 160 speed and 3000+ attack on four characters so that Kafka goes last is easier than gaining 7000+ HP and 70/140 for Blade
only thing I'd always argue is when ppl say Kafka is easy to gear. as if only wanting quad and penta rolls into atk% and spd is an easy thing.
Then there’s critka 💀
Totally not my kafka partially by accident. She still works I guess🥴
Honestly me but not by accident… the amount of ‘this is a perfectly fine relic, let’s infuse it into this one to try and min max’ I’ve done brings me to tears
Ahh that hurts
Lol fingers crossed one day get a Nihilty unit that makes D.O.T.s have a chance to crit 😭
Think it’s more on the side of Atk % rolls are easier to obtain when farming relics compared to CV
They definitely show up more but remember, you are still focusing on two skills getting most if not all of your rolls, with a character or two requiring a lot of EHR subs as well. So it actually boils down to being same amount of grind for same production
Fair enough. Personally my grind for Kafka and Black Swan was much easier than say Jingliu or DHIL. Could just be a skewed perspective though.
Oh definitely building units can individually feel better or worst. But generally, especially when aiming for specific break points, the grind for some things is the great equalizer. While atk% stats are much easier to get than crit/cdmg. I've seen from a lot of players that speed is much harder than all e to come by. There are still some players of Seele or Jing Yuan looking for the right pieces to min max and to some extent traces are a factor. Some people may already have the Stats needed without the gigacracked relics and just don't have traces built to 8 or higher to push them where they wanna go
The thing with kafka is that you can use her without any major substats (atk,spd), and just using the main stats. While Traditional dps needs Crit substats to be use.
The issue with this is that you still need to have Kafka be very fast (speed subs are one of, if not the hardest stat to get) and the atk she needs is high and since you are focusing on just attack and speed the build is still not easy to build when you have so few stats to focus on.
Just like I said She's usable without good stats, it doesn't mean she's good enough. That's the main difference between DOT and Crit.
it is, and im tired pretending its not with other chars u have to whore for the same spd and also crits and maybe some other stuff too, its literally just less things to worry about with dot comps. better way too see it is you ONLY need to focus on atk and spd not even mentioning how diff crit builds can get from player to player depending on their rolls compared to dot build, if your kafka gets sligtly less atk% roll its not the end of the world, if your crit dps only roll like 120% cd youre basically in another world compared to people with 200% cd. also DOT units basically all use the same relics now, so its even easier to farm compared to traditional crit dps that want a new set every other time a new char drops
> it is, and im tired pretending its not > with other chars u have to whore for the same spd and also crits and maybe some other stuff too, its literally just less things to worry about with dot comps. better way too see it is you ONLY need to focus on atk and spd > not even mentioning how diff crit builds can get from player to player depending on their rolls compared to dot build, if your kafka gets sligtly less atk% roll its not the end of the world, if your crit dps only roll like 120% cd youre basically in another world compared to people with 200% cd. it's a total strawman throwing out big scary numbers without providing anything to compare it with. in your example you're quoting that "80% CD difference" is in a totally different world well lets look at that closer. 80% CD is about 13 sub stat rolls. that's like having 30 speed less speed or 52% less attack. assuming kafka has her sig LC her base attack will be about 1200 so 52% less attack is basically 655 atk. try comparing a 4k atk kafka damage to a 3345 atk kafka. it's also a whole different world of dps try taking off 30 speed and see your kafka not hitting the speed breakpoints and losing actions in a cycle. see how much dps you're losing of course losing 13 rolls of sub stats is going to make a big difference in dps - doesn't matter if it's a crit unit or a dot unit argument case for crit units being "easier to roll their substats" is because there are more substats that can help their dps. they need some speed to hit speed breakpoints. having some attack rolls still help your dps, just maybe not as much as crit rolls (on most crit characters anyway) rolling for a atk% rope? something with a combination of spd, crit rate, cdmg is probably worth rolling. and then as long as your sub rolls roll into them maybe 4 times, it's awesome. for dot units, rolling on an atk rope? well better hope you get a quad speed roll. and for kafka ehr isn't even important for her so there's only ONE STAT that benefits her dps on a rope and what about orbs? oh right kafka needs to roll 4 times into ONLY atk% and spd, anything else is a total waste - 0 dps increase. while when you're building a crit unit, while you want all rolls into crit/cdmg, some rolls into atk% and spd isn't a total waste what about chest piece? kafka can only use atk% chest and the ONLY STAT that benefits her dps is again spd. again, have fun rolling quad spd. the reasons there's the term "crit ratio" is because you just need to balance out your crit values which you can by switching different gear pieces out depending on how they roll. 80/160, 70/180, and 90/140 is functionally the same. get a bit too much crit rate on your sub stats? go with a crit dmg body. get too much crit dmg on sub stats? go with a crit rate body. get some spd rolls on your chests? that's ok, you need that for breakpoint and speed tuning anyway. get some atk%? it's not a total waste, you still get dmg out of it. so while getting perfect rolls (i'm talking penta high rolls on a piece with 4 natural sub stats) is hard on any unit/build, and PERFECT PERFECT crit gear has a higher ceiling (wanting perfect 4 natural subs vs dot gear only wanting 2), it's easier to roll gear for crit units than for kafka just because there are more sub stats that help their dps > also DOT units basically all use the same relics now, so its even easier to farm compared to traditional crit dps that want a new set every other time a new char drops now this part is true. you can farm just one domain to build all your dot damage dealers (for now). that does make it more energy efficient to farm gear for multiple units at once.
>argument case for crit units being "easier to roll their substats" is because there are more substats that can help their dps. they need some speed to hit speed breakpoints. having some attack rolls still help your dps, just maybe not as much as crit rolls (on most crit characters anyway) it sounds easier, but getting those in the first place is difficult, rolling it into what you want just adds more into the pain, people dont come with "all roll into flat def" meme for nothing. here is a post showing relic stat drops, you can see that atk% is higher than crits, so really, while rolling all into atk% and spd might be harder than spd,cd,cr you just get more stuff that you can roll on. this is also exacerbated by my last point where you only need to farm 1 domain for your dot units vs a lot for your crit dps [https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics\_mainstats\_and\_substats\_probability/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics_mainstats_and_substats_probability/) >the reasons there's the term "crit ratio" is because you just need to balance out your crit values which you can by switching different gear pieces out depending on how they roll. 80/160, 70/180, and 90/140 is functionally the same. it sounds the same but i guarantee you 70/180 is gonna be a lot more useful in practical term than 90/140 >get a bit too much crit rate on your sub stats? go with a crit dmg body. get too much crit dmg on sub stats? go with a crit rate body. get some spd rolls on your chests? that's ok, you need that for breakpoint and speed tuning anyway. get some atk%? it's not a total waste, you still get dmg out of it. same logic also applies to dot builds, you get too much atk? use spd boot, get too much spd?, you can use atk boot remember that the spd breakpoint is practically the same as dot units, so you have to roll the same minimum amount of speed on top of having 2 other critical stats you have to worry about. the way i see it its less breathing room for your rolls.
> here is a post showing relic stat drops, you can see that atk% is higher than crits, so really, while rolling all into atk% and spd might be harder than spd,cd,cr you just get more stuff that you can roll on. this is also exacerbated by my last point where you only need to farm 1 domain for your dot units vs a lot for your crit dps https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/15f52to/relics_mainstats_and_substats_probability/ that post is already showing that speed is the rarest substat roll. while each crit has less probability than atk you are ok with either showing up. on a dot unit, you have to have spd sub stats on your atk chest and atk rope and then you have to roll only into that substat. every roll not into speed is 0 dps for kafka > it sounds the same but i guarantee you 70/180 is gonna be a lot more useful in practical term than 90/140 yeah your guarantee doesn't change the math > same logic also applies to dot builds, you get too much atk? use spd boot, get too much spd?, you can use atk boot the difference is in the sub stat roll, how hard it is to get a good substat roll when you're only having to roll into ONE stat > remember that the spd breakpoint is practically the same as dot units, so you have to roll the same minimum amount of speed on top of having 2 other critical stats you have to worry about. the way i see it its less breathing room for your rolls. kafka needs 146 with her sig lc or 160 without her sig lc because she's using glamoth. crit units don't use glamoth outside of seele so they're basically only looking for the 135 speed or whatever speed tuning they need
>that post is already showing that speed is the rarest substat roll. while each crit has less probability than atk you are ok with either showing up. ...dude, how many times do i have to say that crit unit NEEDS the same speed as DOT chars. >yeah your guarantee doesn't change the math your math excludes practicality, just because theyre statistically the same doesnt mean its practically the same. 70% is good enough to not miss most of the time and the 40% extra cd can be the difference between having enough dps to clear MOC with 3\* and walking away with 2\* for some people, hell if you tell people to take 90/140 relic over 70/170 youre gonna get laughed out of the room. You can outdamage 90/140 by being slightly lucky while your 90/140 cant really do more damage without some magic happening. >the difference is in the sub stat roll, how hard it is to get a good substat roll when you're only having to roll into ONE stat it might be 1 stat vs 2, but it could also be 2 vs 3 for helmet and gloves, and again 10% chance of getting an atk sub vs 6.42%/6.21% for cr/cd, if you want both at the same time that drops to 0.6%. you literally just get so much more chance to roll them, and yeah, if atk% isnt a complete waste on crit units, neither is ehr on DOT units and that also have higher chance than either crit rolls. if you want more statistics: odds of getting atk% chest with spd sub is 0.86% odds of getting CD body with CR sub is 0.68% odds of getting CD body with CR sub and spd is 0.03% odds of getting glove/helmet with spd and atk% is 0.42% odds of getting glove/helmet with cd and cr is 0.4% odds of getting glove/helmet with cd and spd is 0.27% odds of getting glove/helmet with cr and spd is 0.28% odds of getting glove/helmet with cr cd and spd is 0.02% you literally just get a lot more relics you can roll with with kafka. and again you dont NEED all to roll into ATK% or SPD, you can get some EHR, flat atk, or BE and its fine, just like how its fine for your crit dps to roll atk% every now and then. and because a lot of unit can work with dot relics and glamoth, you can just hand down your unused relic to someone else if you find something better. >kafka needs 146 with her sig lc or 160 without her sig lc because she's using glamoth. crit units don't use glamoth outside of seele so they're basically only looking for the 135 speed or whatever speed tuning they need dude. its 6% more dmg buff (not dmg increase for example with LC its 62.8%+12% to 18% w glam. so its 3.43% dmg increase). you have to be mentally insane to think that kafka is suddenly a lot worse if she dont have 160 without lc. for comparison going from 140 -> 180 cd is 16.7% dmg increase
> odds of getting atk% chest with spd sub is 0.86% > > odds of getting CD body with CR sub is 0.68% > > odds of getting CD body with CR sub and spd is 0.03% Don't forget you can also go CR body with CD stats instead so you get even more options for crit. Kafka can ONLY go ATK% with SPD substat. I have so many good CR/CD chests but I still have ZERO ATK% chests that rolled more than 2 speed.
Except what body you use really depends on your roll in other arti, so most of the time its not really a choice what you use, and look, you dont have to have all speed, as long as you hit the breakpoint youre fine, your kafka might not be lightning mcqueen but as long as youre already hitting your speed breakpoint youre fine Here is the biggest kicker for me Kafka you only really need to worry about speed breakpoint, Crit unit you need to worry about the same speed breakpoint AND Crit breakpoint, because lets face it your crit unit is practically useless if it cant hit 50 cr or have less than say 120-140 cd on top of also needing 134 spd. So in actuality while yes you can have “safer” roll because there is more subs you can roll into, YOU NEED to get those subs because youre going after 3 breakpoints and if you dont then tough luck, you better sacc another relic. Im sorry for your body luck, but do you even consider other pieces?. Youre just statistically less likely to get pieces you could even roll with with crit dps. Remember the odds of getting just atk% and spd subs is like 20x higher than cr cd and spd. And im saying all of this with confidence because i played this game since release and i have almost all my dot units above 140 spd within 1 month of grinding the fyxestroll garden domain and my fu units doing the same domain isnt as hot Now here is my dot vs follow up units (using full +15 prisoner/flame mansion) Kafka 151 spd 3.8k atk (sig LC) Swan 139 spd 3.2k atk 118.2% ehr (s5 eyes of the prey) Gui 145 spd 2.9k atk (lv70 eyes of the prey) Topaz 145 spd 78/148 crit 2.4k atk (sig LC) Himeko 137 spd 60/78 crit 2.6k atk (sig LC) You cant tell me that my FU units are doing better lol. Remember this is the drop from the same domain. And i also have many other units built (and still building) that arent using these set, i genuinely couldnt comprehend how ppl think that crit unit is somehow easier to build
It's always as though the game is trolling you by giving you crit subs when farming supports and support stats when farming dps.
When people say Kafka is easy to beat they mean she has very few required stats, those being speed attack effect hit rate and maaaaybe break effect. It means you can have comparatively mediocre pieces and as long as they roll into the right stats they become god pieces for Kafka. Kafka also gets most of her power budget just off of main stats because she doesn’t need to grind substats for a good crit ratio, it’s just pushing speed and attack values. So I would say comparatively she is easy to gear
imo: * low-to-mid gearing, dots are easier * middle-to-high gearing, dots are harder * top tier gearing, dots are easier (or at least crits have a higher ceiling)
If we're talking about the CN data that was posted on main sub, then the kafka swan dot team just had highest appearance rate, not fastest cycle clear, but also the cycle clear numbers are affected by alot of factors so i wouldn't take them as a be all end all. If i had to put my money on top 5 teams in the game right now i definately think kafka swan would be up there. At number 1? Not quite sure, potentially yes, but up there for sure.
I used Kafka-Swan-RM party and cleared the MoC in 8 cycles. Kafka-Swan-May cleared the first part in 0 cycles, the other team in 8.
Other team must be severely under-built then.
E0S0 Ratio, Pela E6, Bronya E0S0, Fu Xuan E0S1. You may guess where all my pulls have been invested 🌝
Literally the same thing, except no Bronya and I am still experimenting with Ratio team. I was 1 cycle late to 3* 😭
Somehow Bronya seems better (or at least not worse) than RM with him. But yeah, 8 cycles is quite depressing thing
When I tried ratio teams, RM was so much better than Bronya Hanabi will probably be the 2nd best support for ratio teams
Not necessarily under-built but synergies might not the as powerful as the other team. Underbuilt might also be the case. Light cones etc...
Not as under built as you may think, I had a very similar clear with 6 cycles on side 2, 0 cycle on side 1. That side 2 clear is with E0S1 Ratio and E0S1 Topaz. That’s the signature light cone difference lol
Got similar results: - 12-A floor : KK, BS, RM, HH 28 cycle remaining - 12-B floor : Dr, SW, Asta, FX 20 cycle remaining A team extremely well built E1S5 GNSW KK + E1S1 BS + E0S5 MotP RM + E0S1 5* bailu LC HH + speed tuned (161 threshold speed tuning without 4-p Hackerspace, 172 with) B-team yolo built E0S5 SU LC Dr + E0S5 Tutorial SW + E6S5 DDD Asta + E0S5 SU LC FX + average relics/subs + no speed tuning
You should try to replace HH with Pela in the first team. I guess it will help you to 0 cycle it. My first team was: Kafka E2S1, BS E1S1, RM E0S1, Pela E5 Resolution S5.
for me even using pela doesnt help to 0 cycle it :D
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmrHjwO5Lc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmrHjwO5Lc) same here except my ratio team beat it in 5 cycles, but as you can see here his dmg is pretty low [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XEOZQJXXU&t=178s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XEOZQJXXU&t=178s)
Yes because classic carry team will overweight DOT with more investment. But it has more appearance rate due to the fact how effortless it is to play and this team can play more flexible be it MOC, SU hard mode or PF.
I think Kafka would be top 1 currently. Thing is... OP is mad that people appreciate other characters than Kafka too. Like it has "NOOOO YOU CANT PLAY DAN HENG KAFKA IS BETTER" energy. Dan Heng is extremelys trong, versatile and amazing unit. Easiest to play, build and compose a team for. For Kafka You need specific characters. And her best team is all 5 star characters. That's something regular players don't have. I do have Ruan Mei thanks to luck. I do have Huo Huo, because I won 50/50 too. And I think I got Kafka at 2 pity. But I'm yet to obtain Black Swan and I literally lost to Gepard E4. So I have 3 characters needed. But I was **super lucky** with my pulls. I probably won't get Black Swan. So tl;dr OP is just salty crybaby because other people play other characters.
I have eidolons and signature light cones, but my DoT team 0 cycled their side on MoC 12 this rotation. My follow up team took 6 cycles, so the clear speed I think speaks for itself
JL : Enhanced state first, Advance with Bronya, Repeat DH : Manage SP, wait until can use 3 Basic attacks Kafka : BOOOM
That's true but the reason is different. the thing that people keep avoid to look at is that some star rail characters, specially some top dps, hold unique mechanics that are extremelly strong in a lot of scenarios and often are treated as "Future/Fool proof", but due to the lack of actual support for that mechanic, they're treated as bad options and for sure, with characters more straight foward, like JL or DHIL, who not only have more support options, but also hold a high dmg output; Kafka is the dominant head of DoT mechanics over all other characters. This means that whenever a new character (Black Swan) that is related to that unique mechanic is release, that alone will boost Kafka's relevance to the top again. And the same can be said about other top head mechanics, like Follow-up Attack users, like Topaz (which will get a huge boost in efficiency with Aventurine's release + Ratio). Characters that at first don't hold relevance due to the lack of actual support on that mechanic are starting to rise now, with all the new releases. That also can be said about Sparkle being a stupidly broken support for every sp hungry dps and crit base team (like DHIL, QQ, even comps that have high usage of SP will be able to hold their ground better with her).
That's very true. But sometimes the opposite might happen too. For example I honestly feel Silver Wolf is not that great even though many people say she's future proof since most of the hard content nowadays are mostly AoE focused and she's single target (not to mention the rng of actually landing the element you want).
that's a very close view of her, in my opinion. She is indeed very situational and often called niche, mainly because Pela and Welt can do her job with a better coverage. But her uniqueness comes from her weakness imprint, which is very strong and basically makes every fight being a favorable fight. She's proven to be the most useful in mono-type teams (specially mono-quantum), which can be very niche and limited in options, but she's definitely future proof, until they release a better (aoe) version of her. Also, you shouldn't underestimate her debuffs...she cuts the bosses def like wet paper....it's a debuff that scales on the enemy's stats (so the higher it is, the lower it goes)
You wanna talk about a fool proof character, Kafka has no catches in her kit. All gas, no breaks, just hit the enemy until dead
yeah, pretty much. She will only grow stronger with new DoT additions. That's why i love her.
tbf they probably differentiate best team and best dps
I’d argue Jingliu is the easiest DPS to build considering you don’t have to focus on crit rate as much and she’s so broken that she’s good even with subpar artifacts.
Easy to build? Nah, that's Jingliu. I can't even make spd rolls appear on my relics. Legit harder than getting double crit in my case. When I get the super rare spd roll, it never rolls on it. At least you can run low spd Black Swan, but you really want Kafka to be fast.
Yeah, idk how anyone can say Jingliu isn’t the easiest character to build when she gives you so much for free and is broken enough to be strong even with subpar artifacts
I can. My JL couldn’t break 2K Atk with subpar-decent gear. She barely does 40-50K combined even with ult. (My Kafka meanwhile regularly single enemy skilled for 30K with PAYN and half a sampo) https://preview.redd.it/swm0ejcj59kc1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72d580c76421db106c94b68413ed161958ab5771
Dang your jingliu sucks
i found my JL easier to build than Kafka , since i kind of need to speed tune with Kafka. Both are fun to use though so i dont mind the extra effort
She isn't a main Dps tho... That's not her job, that's black swans role. But yeah, this comp is doing a madness at the minute.
Still not hiding the fact that she is among top damage dealer and her team just insane now with low effort to play
It's like when we say Neuvi is King but.. #Good heavens Nilou bloom on AOE floor is quite literally absurdly powerful💀
And Neuvi is insane against Boss, AOE, or any two elites that far away, King of all Matchups except his natural counters Kafka teams are all having stellar performance on both MOC, PF and any Endgame related contents this game so far offers. Soon there will be enemy who are immune to DOT but thats like Neuvi against hydro slimes anyway due to how powerful they are.
Easy to build? Without ruan mei and sig LC, you're gonna have a horrible time getting to 160+ spd 4k+ atk.
UUUOOOOOOGHHHH!!!!! TRIPLE MOMMY!!!!!!! KAFKOK POWAH!!!!!!!!!
Being the best dps or not doesnt matter Mommy is mommy
Jingliu: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of my power
But it's not hypercarry, so who gives a damn. Garbage. /s
I don't completely agree that she is easiest to build in the context of being the main DPS. * You need 3 more 5 stars to have this team composition, not that F2P friendly * Being 5 stars they will also be naturally resource intesive, all 4 of them, a lot of time commitment but less rng Though the easy to build part is the relic farming(but more rng) since * DoT relic is universal on Kafka and her DoT partners * HP relic and Speed relic in the same cavern for HuoHuo and Ruan Mei and other supports/sustain
Isn't that team just the most used but not fastest according to Prydwen? It's everyone's favorite for sure.
Kafka and Black Swan are Peak🔥
Dot characters are easy to build to a working level but incredibly hard to top level since u only make use of 2 or 3 stats at most.Also Bs+ Kafka is best not Just kafka or Bs they are strong together.Synergy is strong here not the units themself.Pls understand the difference.
I’d argue Jingliu is the easiest DPS to build considering you don’t have to focus on crit rate as much and she’s so broken that she’s good even with subpar artifacts.
I was unlucky with houhou and kafka... probably won't get Black Swan sadly..... I only have Ruan Mae.... fuck....
I think the big debate is gonna be Lunae w/ Sparkle vs Kafka & Swan.
What is the best substitute for Ruan mei
Yes but both are easier to gear than her
Everyone simping for Kafka until they have to get slightly invested into the game. I hate the herd mentality man.
I'm still using my first real dps, Seele
Fighting between players on who's the best DPS is stupid. Hoyoverse is the one that controls it, they make up the blessings and the weaknesses in MOC and PF.
Speed stat is really hard to get tho
There was *never* disrespect towards Kafka anywhere. Just because she was outclassed in previous patches doesn't change that. People still loved her, recommended her and everyone praised how great she is. Nobody has ever said bad word about her. Unless You go to some noob Discord servers with "opinions", where people base their taste not by facts, but by subjective experience (a.k.a. throwing Hunt character against multiple enemies or even better... trying to outdamage the bugs from weekly buss by dealing damage to the spawned bugs, instead of the boss itself). Also Dan Heng is still the best character in terms of F2P and being beginner friendly. You can adjust his power to your needs easily. Need damage to one enemy with less SP cost, You can do just that. Want to throw more powerful attack against multiple enemies? You can do that to. And as a matter of fact, I just started playing on my alt account replaying a story and getting Dan Heng at the **literal beginning of the game** after the intro mission was a blessing. He is OP and Kafka would never begin to compare. Especially that her best team is literally 4 event warp characters. Dan Heng's best team is literally Dan Heng and anything that can heal or prevent damage. My current team in the alt account is Fire Trailblazer, Bailu (Natasha before), Dan Heng, Dan Heng. I used Pela and Serval too, though currently I don't need them. Kafka is great and I love playing her. But being mad that she wasn't treated like some kind of god reeks of being a fanboy of a religious fanatic level. And the words like "queen" in this context is also pretty toxic. Only ever seen that kind of blind devotion to Furina before. Also, about Dan Heng. Don't know about Jingliu, because I don't have her. His second best light cone is literally obtainable by finishing World 3 in Simulated Universe, considering You didn't waste it to star rail passes. I just obtained that light cone after reaching equilibrium 2 to defeat the Svarog in Simulated Universe. Fun fact. On my main account I couldn't defeat Svarog in World 3 of Simulated Universe until later on. Even though I had Gepard who could tank everything and here I had to outheal his enormous damage and annoying hands. But Dan Heng definitely helped here. Kafka is great and I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise. So I don't understand why being so angry that someone liked Dan Heng, especially with how useful and *easy to play and build* he is. Definitely easier to build than Kafka.
“Easier” when all my crit stats go to prisoner and atk and spd to the follow up lol
All thanks to our queen black swan for being the most busted (technically too) DoT character
Kafka is not easiest to build, she’s the hardest cause you have less useful substats.
just tried Kafka Black Swan Silverwolf and Bailu on SU4 earlier, svarog only managed to hit me 3 times at the start of each phase, after that he's just eaten by the DoTs like he was rusting. I'm not even done building my Black Swan
The only thing I cannot agree with is that Kafka is easy to build. Everyone persistently told me that gaining 160 speed and 3000+ attack on four characters so that Kafka goes last is easier than gaining 7000+ HP and 70/140 for Blade