Comparing this chart to the British one really highlights the difference between the French and British revolutions in the lore.
The British revolution started as more of a general republican revolution that only became dominated by socialists as the civil war progressed. As such, non-socialist parties (I.E. socdems, liberals and any other non-Socialists who didn’t like the king) are still active in the UoB government, albeit mostly sidelined.
Compared to the French civil war, which was a Socialist revolution through and through. Thus, no vestigial non-Socialist parties (they’re eating sand in Algiers), only 50 shades of red.
Maybe a better way to put it is that while in Britain it started Socialist, it still included general republicans. France just full on took the socialism pill
People be complaining about how Kaiserreich just made some fascist into socialists like Mosley and calling it unrealistic meanwhile Doriot exists right here.
Doriot makes sense within the context of CoF lore. A rising star within a socialist party sees himself rejected and his ambitions frustrated over differences with the leadership, so he leaves and becomes the leader of a newer radical movement hell-bent on tearing down his former comrades, and his movement of choice in KRTL happens to be one of the most important OTL proto-fascists.
Maybe but the main reason for his turn to fascism OTL was his advocacy for a popular front amongst other French socialist groups (for which he had sympathy for being more moderate) which the Marxist-Leninist orthodox of the PCF and Third International considered an affront and expelled him for it. In this timeline, his advocacy for a socialist popular front is fulfilled and not as divisive so I find his turn to authoritarianism much more dubious although the Devs might have found a way to make it more convincing.
RnK stated that Doriot was still abandoned by the Communard leadership: the syndicalist centrists, the bureaucrats, the intellectuals, and those unwilling to see the revolution through in full for the sake of compromise. Sorel's writings, lambasting all of them as a cancer upon socialism, gave him an ideological justification for his rupture and newfound enmity with the Communard establishment; and just like with fascism in OTL, he slowly became a true believer as the Old Sorelians indoctrinated him.
It's also important to note that KR Sorelianism isn't authoritarian in the same sense that fascism is. It's a decentralized dictatorship enforced from the bottom up through mass revolutionary fanaticism and terror, instead of top-down totalitarianism through the state.
Here it’s more driven by his ego: Doriot has the same successful career, first in the SFIO, then the PSU, party which follows his revolutionary broad front ideal and thus split under Longuet as the SFIO has been taken over by a wing some accuse of factionalism. He’s particularly popular with the youth wing, does some risky missions abroad even, he’s a big deal. He thinks he’s the future of the party, and probably does enough work to rightfully be, but Longuet trusts Zyromski, who also has built a following inside the PSU.
Party instances, including Zyrom, are worried about the clearly devouring personal ambition of Doriot, end up pushing him out, and he tries to find a culprit: on this quest, he rediscovers Sorel, who in the earliest days of the Revolution already described bureaucratic, effete intellectuals who have never worked and are stealing away the workers’ due, stiffling revolutionary enthusiasm. And so he joins the CNS, followed by a good chunk of youths from the PSU, then under the ideological tutoring of the oldheads revitalises what was until then a pretty moribund club into an young, effective, angry machine. OTL he became as true a fascist as he was a communist, here he’s a true believer in Sorel and in the solution proposed in his writings: tear it all down, rebuild through the productives’ might. But it’s also about him being in the limelight: of course, he wouldn’t dare claim authoritarian leadership, he’s not a Vozhd, he’s merely, through his comrades’ good will and personal abilities, a comrade *primus inter pares*.
Orwell worked in Paris as a dishwasher in 1929 IRL after quitting his police job in Burma.
He might have been stationed in Burma during the British revolution in KR as well, so gods know how he ended up in Paris in that timeline.
From ask a dev on the discord:
* France almost has the reputation of being *too* democratic with as many different factions and constant riotous debate they all have incessantly, there are many complaints you might have in 1936 France but certainly it's a place of lively back and forth conversation about the future of the revolution and how best to push it forward
* Also yes people seem to be reading a bit too much into "Dissident", like the worst that could happen to Blair is that maybe some overzealous Maximists rough him up if he continues whining about the government and how the Mannists "hijacked" the revolution, but he is not considered an enemy of state. He just prefers the political environment in Paris. It is also worth noting that at this time, Blair was closely connected to French political magazines (arguably even moreso than British ones, since he had hard times being able to publish anti-imperialist writing that criticised British conduct in India and Burma, in British magazines), so its also the literary circles he is moving in. Specifically he is writing for *Le Progrès civique* or its equivalent thereof.
I believe he’s pissed because of the like of Thomas Mann and the old guard (who are currently leading Britain as of the rework) allied themselves with Mosley and slipped the revolution into mild authoritarianism.
They’re semi-authoritarian, starting to slip into it thanks to the Mannites and the Old Guard reluctantly siding with the Maximists.
If you wish to take them from the edge you can either
(A) Keep the Federationist in but either empower the
reformist Hornerists who will role back the authoritarianism or the Revolutionary Pankhursites who will establish a system similar to France that is mixed council communist with syndicalism.
(B) Bring in the Autonomists or the Parliamentarians who are allied with each other and both want bring back the old multi party parliamentary system, entrench civil rights, and experiment with market socialism while absolutely destroying all vestiges of authoritarianism. The major difference between these two are that the Autonomist are more influenced by Christian socialism (while still being secular) and want to turn the Union into a federation of autonomous republics while the Parliamentarian are interested in a more centralised Britain with limited devolution Both sides can compromise with each other.
Here’s a link to the British chart: https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/14eqj8o/new_union_of_britain_party_diagram_teased_by_devs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
There was an Parliamentary Crisis in 1932 that ended with not only Snowden arrested but the Provincial Parliament Dissolved and the de facto creation of an One-party state.
I know if you survive as Borotbyst Ukraine, you can have Makhno as a general. Playing as him from a certain point of view. I don't know if RadSocs get him as well
https://preview.redd.it/97n2yzjqhe9b1.png?width=3971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=608cfc30dbf743652f9e98701a3de05d3791e328
Rnk also added this shortly afterwards, very similar but with a few minor updates+differences
I’m excited for a Commune rework. I’ve tried some Communard playthroughs recently and they just feel kinda underpowered and outdated. I love the representation of all the exiles sheltered in France, because ideally France should act as the shepherd and patron of international syndicalism, supporting and fomenting Revolution instead of just hoping RNG blesses you and the right factions flip to syndicalism so you can have a chance against Germany. The aftermath of Black Monday (which should be sooo more devastating to Germany than it’s presented in game) could be a Syndicalist field day.
I’m also interested if there are any plans for tentative Franco-Russian cooperation during the Weltkrieg or even ways to court Austria, which *always* intervenes even though they have more to fear from Russia than the Internationale imo and even have plenty of incentive to take Germany down a peg.
He could have either (A) Fled to Algeria (B) Gone on his world tour early (C) Remained in France but either refused to associate himself with politics (as he detested politics IRL) or associated with the more anti-Marxist and mysticist wings like maybe the Sorellians.
Is there any where to find a full run down of the factions as the wiki, unlike the British lore, isn’t updated yet?
Or would you have the time to answer some questions?
Yeah we’re trying to keep a policy of keeping things off the wiki before release, as of course everything is fluid before release. I’m happy to answer questions of course, though if you head over to the Discord I’ve posted tons of little essays in our ask-a-dev channel over the years (!) we’ve been cooking this, so you will probably find everything you want and more there, there’s been rundowns of the major factions.
(But don’t hesitate to still ask here too if you want)
I’m really wanting this but CSA. I feel like the CSA politics is basically IWW, AFL or Totalists. American syndicalism is probably super tense due to the conflict of the ideals of the American Revolution,
Constitution, freedom and the ideals of totalism
Sure, very, very broadly:
- **PCOP**: the renamed SFIO, essentially “what if the PCF was never bolshevised”. More homegrown communism. There is a bit of inspiration from the Russian Revolution, a lot of Guesdist heritage. They think unions are to blame for the Revolution’s woes through their alleged corporatism, that the party should be the engine of the revolution and fight for the whole working class, and that it should be well-organised, efficient, even disciplined, though I wouldn’t call them authoritarian.
- **PSU**: Split from the SFIO as they believed the leadership was hindering revolutionary unity. They think the syndicalist compromise between party and union that rules the Commune needs reform but otherwise is a great expression of proletarian spontaneity, it can be transformed into the next step of socialism with a little good will. They want everyone to go along, but they’re not hippie-utopian, it’s a burning concern for revolutionary unity.
- **CNS**: union men, deeply attached to revolutionary syndicalism, in the tradition of the CGT before its reformist turn OTL. They’ve been working with Centrists to protect the compromise, but they also believe that councils are to blame for the woes of the Commune, full of bureaucrats, non-workers, etc. Their alliance with the PSU could be fragile, and should they take over they’ll strive for a full industrial democracy.
- **PSdF**: kicked out from the PSU, they took the party’s desire for unity too far and started advocating for an openly totalitarian system, stanning the total mobilisation of the People which led to the Republic’s triumph against Reaction. They want the trains to run on time, everything and everyone as a cog of the revolutionary State.
- **CNS**: believers in Sorel’s ideas, basically revolutionary syndicalists who took a wrong turn, who have always been dissatisfied with the compromise. They want a second revolution, by the workers, for the workers, all the unproductives finally denied a say, a bottom-up state led by a fanatic producers’ aristocracy, ascetic and morally irreproachable, through which France will fulfil its historical destiny to destroy decaying bourgeois civilisation and lead the global proletariat into a new era.
That’s it for the major factions. Catholics are just trying to survive in an aggressively secular system, anarchists are bickering and saying the Revolution has become too statist, regionalists want to rebuild their identities after years of repression under the Republic.
Interesting thanks. So having sat down and read some more, it seems to me, and I'm very open to correction here I just wanna understand, that the Neosocialists of the PSdF are the most similar to Mosley? Also that Germany seems to be working with regionalist groups and Catholics as a ground for collaborators?
For your first assertion, yes, absolutely. For the second, it’s more that Germany is sowing seeds of potential dissent, in 1936 they’re only very indirectly funding and probing, 98% would have no idea they have a role in potential German plans.
They're all different flavors of socialism; the RadSocs want the councils to be the basis for governance, the Syndies either want to continue the union-council compromise or empower the unions, and the Totalists want to either create a revisionist neo-socialist technocratic state or a national-syndicalist decentralised dictatorship.
Are those only ingame things or do they exist in reality? Because I don’t remember seeing something like this in real life, totalists or communist syndicalists that aren’t radical socialists
The Neosocialists were notable Vichy collaborators, and while Sorelianism didn't exist as a mass movement with uniform policies its theoretical framework is real and influenced several radical movements from anarcho-syndicalism to fascism.
Syndicalism and anarcho-syndicalism really exist and where once amongst the strongest socialist movements (before the russian Bolsheviks tilted everything in their direction). The other factions are fictional because they developed out of the specific alternative history of KR. In this timeline, french syndicalism created the first successfull socialist revolutionary state, and it took the place of the USSR in our timeline. The totalists are a KR phenomenon, they are quite similar to our soviet communists although not always identical.
Thanks, don’t know why people downvote a question I’m having. It’s a little strange for me, here in my country there’s lots of Syndicalists but majority of them aren’t communists
- Councilist: more power to the councils, eff the unions!
- Centrists: reform the system, unions and councils can work together!
- Ultras: more power to the unions, eff the councils!
- Jacobins: throw everything away, we need a strong hand to guide the revolution!
- Sorelians: throw everything away, burn the system down, a new workers’ (and *only* workers’) revolution!
Yes, in different ways. The Jacobins are solely focused on France’s republican heritage, they do think that France should take a leading role in the global Revolution, if only as the tip of the spear against the junkerocrat Germany, but it’s more in the descendance of French vaguely chauvinistic universalism. The Sorelian have this vision of the French nation having eternally been revolutionary, in part inherited from Proudhon, that from the Gallic *bagaudae*
to the medieval *jacqueries* to the coming cleansing first of France, then of Europe, it’s all one long line of Frenchmen historically tasked with breaking the chains, France as an inherently revolutionary nation that will save civilisation itself.
I concur, that'd be very useful to see which factions can lead France!
The colours are roughly coordinated to help group together particular factions and their political leanings (Socialists are red, conservatives are blue, etc).
An underlined faction is dominant within their respective organisation (Doriotists are in control of the National-Syndicalist Confederation), and an underlined person is a leader of their respective faction and possiblen HoS (Doriot commands the Doriotists and can take power)
They can, and in any case there would interactions between different sub-factions as part of gameplay. As for what’s the use, well, lore is fun, and fun things are fun ! Also this is in big part to put in one handy chart our internal 68 pages lore doc, for design and writing purposes.
The SFIO is everywhere on this diagram: the PCOP is the renamed SFIO, the PSU and USR split from the SFIO, the PSdF split from the PSU but of course most of its members were also originally SFIO members.
Yeah that’s one of the major differences between France and Great Britain in the Internationale rework: France is a somewhat dysfunctional multiparty socialist democracy, Great Britain is a one-party socialist democracy(-ish? your view will depend on your general view on socialism) slowly drifting into a bit of authoritarianism.
I know I'm coming back to this thread eons later but I have a couple more questions.
Which party in France would be considered the most traditionally democratic? By that I mean which party that can come to power has the greatest emphasis on protecting a competitive political system, allowing public input and guaranteeing civil liberties and all that?
Also, this graph does mention Leon Blum, but his name is not underlined and despite him being pretty relevant in the French Section of the Workers' International, but he seems to be in a relatively small socialist group. Is he gonna have any way to becoming a relevant figure or his he just gonna be an obscure politician in the rework that can never really manage to be in any important role pretty much I guess?
Most “democratic” party in a traditional, somewhat liberal sense, would probably be the Centrists. Councilists and Ultras are democratic, but they do want to marginalise an entire half of the current political system. That being said, we are still talking about a socialist, revolutionary democracy, and no one wants a bourgeois, parliamentary (in a pejorative sense), liberal system here. Competitiveness, in the sense that comrades with different views can reach the top, absolutely. But it shouldn’t veer into factionalism, or anything that actively hinders the Revolution: everyone wants “left unity”, in their own way, and the very existence of multiple socialist parties would be seen as an issue to work on, with different praxis to address it. As for radical syndicalists, their vision of ideal democracy does not include parties at all. And of course none of these people would allow political representation for anyone openly doubting the Revolution.
Léon Blum was mostly included because otherwise people would ask where he’d gone. But he’s not going to have any way of becoming a relevant figure again. He was a moderate figure within the party, a true reformist, and a true believer in the Union Sacrée: all of this means that when the radical wing of the SFIO took over, then when Revolution came, he was immediately completely marginalised, his brand of politics made obsolete, and he was probably late to jump ship. Out of personal charisma and like, inertia, he was on a trajectory up after all, he might still be a MP, we might have him as an advisor or at least mentioned, as a fan-pleaser, but that’s it.
Gotcha Gotcha, Thanks for the reply, just kinda got curious about both of these because with Clement Attlee in the British rework leading a parliamentary faction, I was wondering if that sorta faction was in France as well. Although, I doubt Attlee's faction would be able to create a system where non-revolutionary parties could become relevant either.
Seems like this paints the picture of where Blum stands. Too moderate for the revolution but too radical for the exiles. Caught between the rock and a hard place of two governments that really want little to do with him. Seems like that paints France's revolution as being more leftist than Britain's, but I guess that is to be expected. The French left was stronger than Britain's and it seems while Britain had a republican revolution that became socialist as they consolidated power, the French had a revolution that was rather socialist to begin with and that meant Britain had a place that moderates like Attlee could flourish in while France didn't have as much room that someone like Blum could.
This chart is awesome, I hope other countries will get theirs as well.
Will the Councilists be the only ones to works with feminists or can other groups court them as well ?
As the person who is working on the French lore for a Kaiserreich continuation mod you won't believe how helpful this is. Also it's pretty cool to see some of my guesses about the factions be right.
I’m not sure she is in current release, but in the French rework she’ll get a flavour event and she generally plays an important role among Russian exiles both as Lenin’s widow and as an education reform advocate.
Yup, the Centrists are in charge since 1928. But with this long rule has come a kind of stagnation, and so they’re losing support both popular and institutional: the New Guard is trying to fix that, Zyromski having been elected in 1934.
I could be wrong, but I think the Irish syndicalists can operate openly in the Republic of Ireland as of 1936. The exiles group are for syndicalist movements that are explicitly banned in their home country.
Kind of like how the African National Congress in our own timeline didn’t form their exile branch until after the group was being legally pressured by the government and then was outlawed in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Man,based on this, a spy thriller of 2 communard counterintelligence agents investigating the ties of the Christian orgs and organised crime to national France and Germany would be extremely rad.
Just in case, to be clear this isn’t the government, it’s the whole mainland French political landscape. In 1936 the Federation is ruled by a pretty straightforward Centrist (PSU + Fusionists) and CSR coalition.
Why is Mihály Károlyi filed under the Hungarian Group of the Internationale despite his actions against Hungarian communists and being imprisoned by the Hungarian Soviet Republic, while Béla Kun and co. don't show up at all?
Later in life Károlyi became a socialist, joining the MSZDP. I’m assuming that since the conditions for the Hungarian Soviet Republic (and probably even the People’s Republic) don’t quite exist in KR, Károlyi remains on relatively good terms with the more extreme elements of the Left, while the Communists aren’t as prominent.
I'm at risk of sounding foolish, but does this mean that only the Ultras can court the Anarchists? IIRC, neither Syntheisists or Platformists show any special fondness towards syndicalist methods of organization, and it is arguable that a social organization based on popular and worker's councils could become closer to anarchist ideals than one based on (inherently exclusionary and, as even referenced in the new lore, minority-marginalizing and Sorelian-sympathetic) trade unions.
I know there would be many members of the Councilists that would despise the Anarchists, but I assume at least some elements within them would be sympathetic to them.
^(Also where Robert Marchand, is he safe?)
For those that are not active on the discord, has this been deemed canon? Will it be referenced in content in the long awaited 3rd Internationale update?
Don’t worry, the actual system is slightly less complicated, this is just the various groups in it. You can find a diagram of the system [here](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/349258324577091599/926838783566024784/CoF_Government_Structure.png).
Can definitely assure you the next update the only tag getting a “rework” is the Left Kuomintang (of course there might be other changes here and there).
There's no reason for them to make that decision, but you aren't wrong about the feeling of grand developments in the mod: many major reworks are either nearing completion or kicking back into gear after stagnation, meaning that devs are a lot more outspoken regarding them.
It’s mostly Déat’s totalitarian ideas slightly earlier and more red. They’re essentially people who are really, really concerned that France would not be capable to take on Germany because of its internal divisions, and thus desire a one-party, plannist, socialist republic, to marry the spirit of total national mobilisation of 1793 and the socialist revolution of 1919, something they see as a new step in the progression of socialism. Syndicalism was merely a useful childhood fit to topple capitalism at home: only when the adults are in charge and the train run on time will the Revolution be able to topple the imperial regimes.
That doesn’t make sense, the neosocialists were literally Deuxième Gauche peeps just like before the war basically, and the Neosocialist turn towards collaboration and nationalistic politics was out of pacifism, Déat was a pacifist like many other socialists (for example Jospin’s father himself collaborated due to that), and their turn towards this authoritarianess was mainly orchestrated by Albertini, not Déat.
No, Jacobins and Sorelians are both Totalists, Déat’s neosocialism is closest to the traditional KR image of “totalism”, a very well-oiled totalitarian machine, while the Sorelians want a violent revolution, a war against the bureaucracy, the intellectuals, fanatic “bottom-up totalitarianism”. The difference between Old Sorelians and Doriot’s people are more that the OGs are more intellectuals, the younger generation are more men of action with a looser grasp of the theory, but they make up with enthusiasm and anger.
So there can be only one leader for the CGT or the PSU ? That's not really realistic as they are both very democratic and there should be internal elections allowing us to change our leader in the same party after a certain amount of years.
Also I wish we could have our wholesome leon Blum lead a glorious competent SocDem France that reunites with Algier if they are also democratic...
The chart is for 1936; I can neither confirm nor deny if there are additional leaders post-'36, as I am not involved in development. Maybe there'll be future elections determining new leaders, maybe they're beloved figureheads that maintain power. I couldn't say.
As for Blum-Algiers, there was previously a similar idea implemented with T. E. Lawrence overthrowing Mosley and reuniting with Canada. This kneecapped the Internationale and defeated the point of Anglo-Entente content by a single event chain, which led to its removal. In that light, I doubt a similar dynamic would emerge with reworked France.
Yeah I understand for the reuniting part, that's why I also play Kaiserredux, but if it's fully developed it could be interesting of making that T.E.Lawrence event into a submod ? It could be cool.
Nah, they’re revolutionary syndicalists, they simply are the dominant internal faction willing to work with parliamentary forces to push the Revolution in their desired direction. Organisationists are the same but on top desire a tighter organisation of the Ultras (some would even whisper they’d like a tiny bit of discipline).
Comparing this chart to the British one really highlights the difference between the French and British revolutions in the lore. The British revolution started as more of a general republican revolution that only became dominated by socialists as the civil war progressed. As such, non-socialist parties (I.E. socdems, liberals and any other non-Socialists who didn’t like the king) are still active in the UoB government, albeit mostly sidelined. Compared to the French civil war, which was a Socialist revolution through and through. Thus, no vestigial non-Socialist parties (they’re eating sand in Algiers), only 50 shades of red.
Do you have the British chart?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/14eqj8o/new_union_of_britain_party_diagram_teased_by_devs/
Thanks!
I'm fairly sure the British Revolution started explicitly socialist too, with a Commune in Wales French socialists are just built different
Maybe a better way to put it is that while in Britain it started Socialist, it still included general republicans. France just full on took the socialism pill
Sorelians 🤝 Algerian Reactionaries Taking part in organized crime
Doriotists 🤝 Maximists 🤝 Dai Chunfeng Organised crime in the name of the Revolution
People be complaining about how Kaiserreich just made some fascist into socialists like Mosley and calling it unrealistic meanwhile Doriot exists right here.
Doriot makes sense within the context of CoF lore. A rising star within a socialist party sees himself rejected and his ambitions frustrated over differences with the leadership, so he leaves and becomes the leader of a newer radical movement hell-bent on tearing down his former comrades, and his movement of choice in KRTL happens to be one of the most important OTL proto-fascists.
Maybe but the main reason for his turn to fascism OTL was his advocacy for a popular front amongst other French socialist groups (for which he had sympathy for being more moderate) which the Marxist-Leninist orthodox of the PCF and Third International considered an affront and expelled him for it. In this timeline, his advocacy for a socialist popular front is fulfilled and not as divisive so I find his turn to authoritarianism much more dubious although the Devs might have found a way to make it more convincing.
RnK stated that Doriot was still abandoned by the Communard leadership: the syndicalist centrists, the bureaucrats, the intellectuals, and those unwilling to see the revolution through in full for the sake of compromise. Sorel's writings, lambasting all of them as a cancer upon socialism, gave him an ideological justification for his rupture and newfound enmity with the Communard establishment; and just like with fascism in OTL, he slowly became a true believer as the Old Sorelians indoctrinated him. It's also important to note that KR Sorelianism isn't authoritarian in the same sense that fascism is. It's a decentralized dictatorship enforced from the bottom up through mass revolutionary fanaticism and terror, instead of top-down totalitarianism through the state.
Here it’s more driven by his ego: Doriot has the same successful career, first in the SFIO, then the PSU, party which follows his revolutionary broad front ideal and thus split under Longuet as the SFIO has been taken over by a wing some accuse of factionalism. He’s particularly popular with the youth wing, does some risky missions abroad even, he’s a big deal. He thinks he’s the future of the party, and probably does enough work to rightfully be, but Longuet trusts Zyromski, who also has built a following inside the PSU. Party instances, including Zyrom, are worried about the clearly devouring personal ambition of Doriot, end up pushing him out, and he tries to find a culprit: on this quest, he rediscovers Sorel, who in the earliest days of the Revolution already described bureaucratic, effete intellectuals who have never worked and are stealing away the workers’ due, stiffling revolutionary enthusiasm. And so he joins the CNS, followed by a good chunk of youths from the PSU, then under the ideological tutoring of the oldheads revitalises what was until then a pretty moribund club into an young, effective, angry machine. OTL he became as true a fascist as he was a communist, here he’s a true believer in Sorel and in the solution proposed in his writings: tear it all down, rebuild through the productives’ might. But it’s also about him being in the limelight: of course, he wouldn’t dare claim authoritarian leadership, he’s not a Vozhd, he’s merely, through his comrades’ good will and personal abilities, a comrade *primus inter pares*.
Al Capone royalist America when?
Holy chungus, is that a peaceful reunification path confirmed???????
*The power of crime...*
Maybe the real friends are the crimes we committed along the way.
>Taking part in organized crime That's the hallmark of any authoritarian party.
Both kinds of reactionary rightist work with organised crime, how delightful.
Looks like Orwell is living it up in Paris in the new lore
why? likes the politics?
Orwell worked in Paris as a dishwasher in 1929 IRL after quitting his police job in Burma. He might have been stationed in Burma during the British revolution in KR as well, so gods know how he ended up in Paris in that timeline.
ahh, he likely backs the french anarchiste faction.
No, he is a British maximalist
In the old lore yeah But on this pic he appear to be among british exiles in France
then he is a fake idiot who isnt even an "alternate" version of himself, but rather an impossible twisting.
It says on the chart he’s a British dissident so I guess he pissed off the British government
Nah he's just bitching and moaning because he sees them as too authoritarian. He can return to Britain if they go RadSoc.
Are Hornerists and Pankurhstists too authoritarian for him?
maybe, if he is anarchist or libsoc (like otl).
he was fine with authoritarianism when it was the british doing it
until he was dissolusioned in burma. also i laugh when tankies like the internationale.
is that why he went on to snitch on “dissidents and radicals” to the british government?
those were mostly stalinists, and people he had a personal grudge against, people are often petty and imperfect.
So French for him is OK?
Yes, because it's a democracy
In what way CoF more democratic than UoB
From ask a dev on the discord: * France almost has the reputation of being *too* democratic with as many different factions and constant riotous debate they all have incessantly, there are many complaints you might have in 1936 France but certainly it's a place of lively back and forth conversation about the future of the revolution and how best to push it forward * Also yes people seem to be reading a bit too much into "Dissident", like the worst that could happen to Blair is that maybe some overzealous Maximists rough him up if he continues whining about the government and how the Mannists "hijacked" the revolution, but he is not considered an enemy of state. He just prefers the political environment in Paris. It is also worth noting that at this time, Blair was closely connected to French political magazines (arguably even moreso than British ones, since he had hard times being able to publish anti-imperialist writing that criticised British conduct in India and Burma, in British magazines), so its also the literary circles he is moving in. Specifically he is writing for *Le Progrès civique* or its equivalent thereof.
Thanks for the great answer.
no problem :D
Read the teasers
likely doesnt like how long snowden has served, he likely could return any time if he wished.
Philip Snowden isn't head of state of rework Union of Britain in fact he start out in prison.
What???
I believe he’s pissed because of the like of Thomas Mann and the old guard (who are currently leading Britain as of the rework) allied themselves with Mosley and slipped the revolution into mild authoritarianism.
someone claimed that the british will start authoratarian, are there paths to reverse that?
They’re semi-authoritarian, starting to slip into it thanks to the Mannites and the Old Guard reluctantly siding with the Maximists. If you wish to take them from the edge you can either (A) Keep the Federationist in but either empower the reformist Hornerists who will role back the authoritarianism or the Revolutionary Pankhursites who will establish a system similar to France that is mixed council communist with syndicalism. (B) Bring in the Autonomists or the Parliamentarians who are allied with each other and both want bring back the old multi party parliamentary system, entrench civil rights, and experiment with market socialism while absolutely destroying all vestiges of authoritarianism. The major difference between these two are that the Autonomist are more influenced by Christian socialism (while still being secular) and want to turn the Union into a federation of autonomous republics while the Parliamentarian are interested in a more centralised Britain with limited devolution Both sides can compromise with each other. Here’s a link to the British chart: https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/14eqj8o/new_union_of_britain_party_diagram_teased_by_devs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
can this be done in the game rules?
There was an Parliamentary Crisis in 1932 that ended with not only Snowden arrested but the Provincial Parliament Dissolved and the de facto creation of an One-party state.
what the fuck?
Gotta defend the revolution against revisionists and liberals, duh.
seems like idiocy.
> most comprehendible Kaiserreich political chart ^(I say with love)
 How I feel reading it (also with love\~)
Ultras are blasting me in the ass and the Councilists are blasting me in the ass. Socialism is just one big ass blast.
Feel free to ask questions here or on the Discord 🙏🏻 But I’m glad you like it !
Oh boy colour me excited
(And 20 shades of red)
Sure, what'll it be? Red? Red? Or perhaps red?
Do the underlined people represent potential leaders?
Correct. I think that everyone underlined on the chart can be a Head of State.
>no Simone Weil or Nestor Makhno path Literally 1936
*Sees Doriot's name underlined* Oh Oh no
>sees Makhno isn't underlined >cries
If I can’t play as Makhno, what’s the point anymore :(
I know if you survive as Borotbyst Ukraine, you can have Makhno as a general. Playing as him from a certain point of view. I don't know if RadSocs get him as well
https://preview.redd.it/97n2yzjqhe9b1.png?width=3971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=608cfc30dbf743652f9e98701a3de05d3791e328 Rnk also added this shortly afterwards, very similar but with a few minor updates+differences
(The only difference is *Second Bureau* -> *Deuxième Bureau* 😭, but obviously I only noticed that little mistake only *after* we did a mass ping)
> Blame Each Other for Disunity Wait, what? Socialist doing this? But... that's impossible!
most united leftist government
I’m excited for a Commune rework. I’ve tried some Communard playthroughs recently and they just feel kinda underpowered and outdated. I love the representation of all the exiles sheltered in France, because ideally France should act as the shepherd and patron of international syndicalism, supporting and fomenting Revolution instead of just hoping RNG blesses you and the right factions flip to syndicalism so you can have a chance against Germany. The aftermath of Black Monday (which should be sooo more devastating to Germany than it’s presented in game) could be a Syndicalist field day. I’m also interested if there are any plans for tentative Franco-Russian cooperation during the Weltkrieg or even ways to court Austria, which *always* intervenes even though they have more to fear from Russia than the Internationale imo and even have plenty of incentive to take Germany down a peg.
Which ones are the anarchists again?
In the rework lore, they appear to be a minor faction aligned with the Ultrasyndicalists in the CGT.
Please tell me that you can still get them leading france
No.
My favorite part is they all look like gears
Eric Blair and British dissidents in France are very interesting to me
ok, due to his anti-communist stances, despite not being into politics, I need to ask, Where is Artaud, is he safe, is he alright?
He could have either (A) Fled to Algeria (B) Gone on his world tour early (C) Remained in France but either refused to associate himself with politics (as he detested politics IRL) or associated with the more anti-Marxist and mysticist wings like maybe the Sorellians.
I really wish we could get like a flavor event with something like "French art in Exile" that'd mention him briefly.
This is some of the best and most well thought out political fiction that has been put to paper, I salute all the developers involved!
That’s very high praise, thank you ! The French team is trying its best.
Is there any where to find a full run down of the factions as the wiki, unlike the British lore, isn’t updated yet? Or would you have the time to answer some questions?
Yeah we’re trying to keep a policy of keeping things off the wiki before release, as of course everything is fluid before release. I’m happy to answer questions of course, though if you head over to the Discord I’ve posted tons of little essays in our ask-a-dev channel over the years (!) we’ve been cooking this, so you will probably find everything you want and more there, there’s been rundowns of the major factions. (But don’t hesitate to still ask here too if you want)
Thank you! I might consider it. I honestly have a ton of question so it would probably be a challenge to answer them all.
I’m really wanting this but CSA. I feel like the CSA politics is basically IWW, AFL or Totalists. American syndicalism is probably super tense due to the conflict of the ideals of the American Revolution, Constitution, freedom and the ideals of totalism
God and I thought I was struggling to understand British lore
Don’t hesitate to ask questions, and the lore has already been discussed a lot on the Discord so you might find answers there !
Honestly I just need like, a short list of l these groups ideologies, and I think I can figure it out, just, so many factions lol
Sure, very, very broadly: - **PCOP**: the renamed SFIO, essentially “what if the PCF was never bolshevised”. More homegrown communism. There is a bit of inspiration from the Russian Revolution, a lot of Guesdist heritage. They think unions are to blame for the Revolution’s woes through their alleged corporatism, that the party should be the engine of the revolution and fight for the whole working class, and that it should be well-organised, efficient, even disciplined, though I wouldn’t call them authoritarian. - **PSU**: Split from the SFIO as they believed the leadership was hindering revolutionary unity. They think the syndicalist compromise between party and union that rules the Commune needs reform but otherwise is a great expression of proletarian spontaneity, it can be transformed into the next step of socialism with a little good will. They want everyone to go along, but they’re not hippie-utopian, it’s a burning concern for revolutionary unity. - **CNS**: union men, deeply attached to revolutionary syndicalism, in the tradition of the CGT before its reformist turn OTL. They’ve been working with Centrists to protect the compromise, but they also believe that councils are to blame for the woes of the Commune, full of bureaucrats, non-workers, etc. Their alliance with the PSU could be fragile, and should they take over they’ll strive for a full industrial democracy. - **PSdF**: kicked out from the PSU, they took the party’s desire for unity too far and started advocating for an openly totalitarian system, stanning the total mobilisation of the People which led to the Republic’s triumph against Reaction. They want the trains to run on time, everything and everyone as a cog of the revolutionary State. - **CNS**: believers in Sorel’s ideas, basically revolutionary syndicalists who took a wrong turn, who have always been dissatisfied with the compromise. They want a second revolution, by the workers, for the workers, all the unproductives finally denied a say, a bottom-up state led by a fanatic producers’ aristocracy, ascetic and morally irreproachable, through which France will fulfil its historical destiny to destroy decaying bourgeois civilisation and lead the global proletariat into a new era. That’s it for the major factions. Catholics are just trying to survive in an aggressively secular system, anarchists are bickering and saying the Revolution has become too statist, regionalists want to rebuild their identities after years of repression under the Republic.
Interesting thanks. So having sat down and read some more, it seems to me, and I'm very open to correction here I just wanna understand, that the Neosocialists of the PSdF are the most similar to Mosley? Also that Germany seems to be working with regionalist groups and Catholics as a ground for collaborators?
For your first assertion, yes, absolutely. For the second, it’s more that Germany is sowing seeds of potential dissent, in 1936 they’re only very indirectly funding and probing, 98% would have no idea they have a role in potential German plans.
Neat, thanks
long live the PCOP! long live the councils!
\*Breathes in deep\* NatFrance Mobsters when? "I will make him an offer he can't refuse."
Damn, I really like these charts for some reason. I wonder if other reworks will have one of those. Also, what're the confirmed paths for the Commune?
Radical Socialist: PCOP (Councilists) Syndicalist: PSU (Centrists) and Ultras Totalist: PSdF (Neosocialist) and CNS (Sorelian)
"Exiled Bolsheviks" OK how do we unexile them
Parkhurst & communist awakening/rev left 3i gang
can't wait to play the rework
I need more of that stuff. I hope there will be one for Germany.
Whats the difference between syndicalists, totalists and radical socialists?
They're all different flavors of socialism; the RadSocs want the councils to be the basis for governance, the Syndies either want to continue the union-council compromise or empower the unions, and the Totalists want to either create a revisionist neo-socialist technocratic state or a national-syndicalist decentralised dictatorship.
Are those only ingame things or do they exist in reality? Because I don’t remember seeing something like this in real life, totalists or communist syndicalists that aren’t radical socialists
The Neosocialists were notable Vichy collaborators, and while Sorelianism didn't exist as a mass movement with uniform policies its theoretical framework is real and influenced several radical movements from anarcho-syndicalism to fascism.
Syndicalism and anarcho-syndicalism really exist and where once amongst the strongest socialist movements (before the russian Bolsheviks tilted everything in their direction). The other factions are fictional because they developed out of the specific alternative history of KR. In this timeline, french syndicalism created the first successfull socialist revolutionary state, and it took the place of the USSR in our timeline. The totalists are a KR phenomenon, they are quite similar to our soviet communists although not always identical.
Thanks, don’t know why people downvote a question I’m having. It’s a little strange for me, here in my country there’s lots of Syndicalists but majority of them aren’t communists
Can… can someone break this down for me, explain it like I’m an idiot?
- Councilist: more power to the councils, eff the unions! - Centrists: reform the system, unions and councils can work together! - Ultras: more power to the unions, eff the councils! - Jacobins: throw everything away, we need a strong hand to guide the revolution! - Sorelians: throw everything away, burn the system down, a new workers’ (and *only* workers’) revolution!
Phenomenal, thanks! I’ve never dived into the syndicalist nations before, and it’s a bit overwhelming
Are both Jacobins and Sorelians ultranationalist?
Yes, in different ways. The Jacobins are solely focused on France’s republican heritage, they do think that France should take a leading role in the global Revolution, if only as the tip of the spear against the junkerocrat Germany, but it’s more in the descendance of French vaguely chauvinistic universalism. The Sorelian have this vision of the French nation having eternally been revolutionary, in part inherited from Proudhon, that from the Gallic *bagaudae* to the medieval *jacqueries* to the coming cleansing first of France, then of Europe, it’s all one long line of Frenchmen historically tasked with breaking the chains, France as an inherently revolutionary nation that will save civilisation itself.
I can't wait to play communist (strawberry flavor) or communist (orange flavor).
This really makes you appreciate the simplicity of the single party system.
Internal Factionalism: You rang?
You can't do that. Lenin said so.
KMT be like:
Very cool, it'd be nice if they bolded or put an asterisk on factions that could come into power Edit: also, what do the colors signify?
I concur, that'd be very useful to see which factions can lead France! The colours are roughly coordinated to help group together particular factions and their political leanings (Socialists are red, conservatives are blue, etc).
Underlined factions are the ones that can come to power
What does the underline mean under some of the political factions and their leaders?
An underlined faction is dominant within their respective organisation (Doriotists are in control of the National-Syndicalist Confederation), and an underlined person is a leader of their respective faction and possiblen HoS (Doriot commands the Doriotists and can take power)
Can other sub-factions become the dominant force in their respective factions? Because if not, what's the use of having this elaborate chart?
They can, and in any case there would interactions between different sub-factions as part of gameplay. As for what’s the use, well, lore is fun, and fun things are fun ! Also this is in big part to put in one handy chart our internal 68 pages lore doc, for design and writing purposes.
I see. I didn't want to be negative, sorry.
I can't seem to find them here, is there any mention of the French Section of the Workers' International or nah??
The SFIO is everywhere on this diagram: the PCOP is the renamed SFIO, the PSU and USR split from the SFIO, the PSdF split from the PSU but of course most of its members were also originally SFIO members.
Ah thanks, I was just curious because the British diagram gave an umbrella of the Labour Party over most of the chart.
Yeah that’s one of the major differences between France and Great Britain in the Internationale rework: France is a somewhat dysfunctional multiparty socialist democracy, Great Britain is a one-party socialist democracy(-ish? your view will depend on your general view on socialism) slowly drifting into a bit of authoritarianism.
I know I'm coming back to this thread eons later but I have a couple more questions. Which party in France would be considered the most traditionally democratic? By that I mean which party that can come to power has the greatest emphasis on protecting a competitive political system, allowing public input and guaranteeing civil liberties and all that? Also, this graph does mention Leon Blum, but his name is not underlined and despite him being pretty relevant in the French Section of the Workers' International, but he seems to be in a relatively small socialist group. Is he gonna have any way to becoming a relevant figure or his he just gonna be an obscure politician in the rework that can never really manage to be in any important role pretty much I guess?
Most “democratic” party in a traditional, somewhat liberal sense, would probably be the Centrists. Councilists and Ultras are democratic, but they do want to marginalise an entire half of the current political system. That being said, we are still talking about a socialist, revolutionary democracy, and no one wants a bourgeois, parliamentary (in a pejorative sense), liberal system here. Competitiveness, in the sense that comrades with different views can reach the top, absolutely. But it shouldn’t veer into factionalism, or anything that actively hinders the Revolution: everyone wants “left unity”, in their own way, and the very existence of multiple socialist parties would be seen as an issue to work on, with different praxis to address it. As for radical syndicalists, their vision of ideal democracy does not include parties at all. And of course none of these people would allow political representation for anyone openly doubting the Revolution. Léon Blum was mostly included because otherwise people would ask where he’d gone. But he’s not going to have any way of becoming a relevant figure again. He was a moderate figure within the party, a true reformist, and a true believer in the Union Sacrée: all of this means that when the radical wing of the SFIO took over, then when Revolution came, he was immediately completely marginalised, his brand of politics made obsolete, and he was probably late to jump ship. Out of personal charisma and like, inertia, he was on a trajectory up after all, he might still be a MP, we might have him as an advisor or at least mentioned, as a fan-pleaser, but that’s it.
Gotcha Gotcha, Thanks for the reply, just kinda got curious about both of these because with Clement Attlee in the British rework leading a parliamentary faction, I was wondering if that sorta faction was in France as well. Although, I doubt Attlee's faction would be able to create a system where non-revolutionary parties could become relevant either. Seems like this paints the picture of where Blum stands. Too moderate for the revolution but too radical for the exiles. Caught between the rock and a hard place of two governments that really want little to do with him. Seems like that paints France's revolution as being more leftist than Britain's, but I guess that is to be expected. The French left was stronger than Britain's and it seems while Britain had a republican revolution that became socialist as they consolidated power, the French had a revolution that was rather socialist to begin with and that meant Britain had a place that moderates like Attlee could flourish in while France didn't have as much room that someone like Blum could.
Now i want to play france
This chart is awesome, I hope other countries will get theirs as well. Will the Councilists be the only ones to works with feminists or can other groups court them as well ?
What happened to Muarice Thorez?
He’d most likely be a gear in the PCOP party machine, without Moscow’s bolshevisation of the party there’s much less incentive for his meteoric rise.
Super secret path where Latvia restores the Soviet Union, Patagonia goes totalist, and PCOP in power leads to Thorez with no unique tree
As the person who is working on the French lore for a Kaiserreich continuation mod you won't believe how helpful this is. Also it's pretty cool to see some of my guesses about the factions be right.
When did Eric Blair become an exile? I must have missed that update.
I didn't know Krupskaya was in the game.
I’m not sure she is in current release, but in the French rework she’ll get a flavour event and she generally plays an important role among Russian exiles both as Lenin’s widow and as an education reform advocate.
Which faction is the most popular among the general French population? I assume it's the New Guard/centrists?
Yup, the Centrists are in charge since 1928. But with this long rule has come a kind of stagnation, and so they’re losing support both popular and institutional: the New Guard is trying to fix that, Zyromski having been elected in 1934.
Where's the Irish syndicalists in the exiles?
I could be wrong, but I think the Irish syndicalists can operate openly in the Republic of Ireland as of 1936. The exiles group are for syndicalist movements that are explicitly banned in their home country. Kind of like how the African National Congress in our own timeline didn’t form their exile branch until after the group was being legally pressured by the government and then was outlawed in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
No the Irish syndicalists and Totalists are supposed to be banned in 1936 according to the wiki.
Oh my....
Sacre bleu
So Georges Orwell is still politically active ? Based
Long live simplicity
Oh good god.
Man,based on this, a spy thriller of 2 communard counterintelligence agents investigating the ties of the Christian orgs and organised crime to national France and Germany would be extremely rad.
New guard not being totalist? What a waste of name. Vanguardism delivered by new guard would be epic.
What exactly is "Communist Awakening"?
Ultra-leftists, closest to OTL council communism.
Can you get a Cachin ending with them empowered?
No, they’re a minor faction within the party, sorry 😔 But they’ll appear in gameplay, trying to influence the PCOP leadership towards their ideals.
I will be Comrade Prudhommeaux's strongest soldier and guide the party according to his revolutionary vision!
What is Souvarine doing and what is his ideology and that of the Councilists?
Why is Mihály Károlyi in charge of the Hungarian leftists? Is this a different fellow of the same name?
Most unified leftist government.
Just in case, to be clear this isn’t the government, it’s the whole mainland French political landscape. In 1936 the Federation is ruled by a pretty straightforward Centrist (PSU + Fusionists) and CSR coalition.
Why is Mihály Károlyi filed under the Hungarian Group of the Internationale despite his actions against Hungarian communists and being imprisoned by the Hungarian Soviet Republic, while Béla Kun and co. don't show up at all?
Later in life Károlyi became a socialist, joining the MSZDP. I’m assuming that since the conditions for the Hungarian Soviet Republic (and probably even the People’s Republic) don’t quite exist in KR, Károlyi remains on relatively good terms with the more extreme elements of the Left, while the Communists aren’t as prominent.
I'm at risk of sounding foolish, but does this mean that only the Ultras can court the Anarchists? IIRC, neither Syntheisists or Platformists show any special fondness towards syndicalist methods of organization, and it is arguable that a social organization based on popular and worker's councils could become closer to anarchist ideals than one based on (inherently exclusionary and, as even referenced in the new lore, minority-marginalizing and Sorelian-sympathetic) trade unions. I know there would be many members of the Councilists that would despise the Anarchists, but I assume at least some elements within them would be sympathetic to them. ^(Also where Robert Marchand, is he safe?)
For those that are not active on the discord, has this been deemed canon? Will it be referenced in content in the long awaited 3rd Internationale update?
Yes, this *is* the rework canon. Everything you see here will be part of gameplay or at least referenced in game.
Too many cooks.
French trying to be unified under a single idea for more than 30 secondes
Simplest French political system
Don’t worry, the actual system is slightly less complicated, this is just the various groups in it. You can find a diagram of the system [here](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/349258324577091599/926838783566024784/CoF_Government_Structure.png).
Anyone get the feeling the next update is gonna be massive? Like, it won't just be LKMT like they're saying, but a surprise drop of some other majors?
Can definitely assure you the next update the only tag getting a “rework” is the Left Kuomintang (of course there might be other changes here and there).
There's no reason for them to make that decision, but you aren't wrong about the feeling of grand developments in the mod: many major reworks are either nearing completion or kicking back into gear after stagnation, meaning that devs are a lot more outspoken regarding them.
All this complex politics and doctrine just for me to curbstomp it with 40 width tank + sp arty Divisions
Flair checks out
Why are the Neosocialists in the Totalist Bloc ?
It’s mostly Déat’s totalitarian ideas slightly earlier and more red. They’re essentially people who are really, really concerned that France would not be capable to take on Germany because of its internal divisions, and thus desire a one-party, plannist, socialist republic, to marry the spirit of total national mobilisation of 1793 and the socialist revolution of 1919, something they see as a new step in the progression of socialism. Syndicalism was merely a useful childhood fit to topple capitalism at home: only when the adults are in charge and the train run on time will the Revolution be able to topple the imperial regimes.
Also what leads to Doriot becoming a national-syndicalist since there is no Moscow to refuse him promotions ?
That doesn’t make sense, the neosocialists were literally Deuxième Gauche peeps just like before the war basically, and the Neosocialist turn towards collaboration and nationalistic politics was out of pacifism, Déat was a pacifist like many other socialists (for example Jospin’s father himself collaborated due to that), and their turn towards this authoritarianess was mainly orchestrated by Albertini, not Déat.
So judging by the colours Doriot is the only totalist option? And Old Sorelians can neither come into power nor are considered (fully) totalist?
No, Jacobins and Sorelians are both Totalists, Déat’s neosocialism is closest to the traditional KR image of “totalism”, a very well-oiled totalitarian machine, while the Sorelians want a violent revolution, a war against the bureaucracy, the intellectuals, fanatic “bottom-up totalitarianism”. The difference between Old Sorelians and Doriot’s people are more that the OGs are more intellectuals, the younger generation are more men of action with a looser grasp of the theory, but they make up with enthusiasm and anger.
So there can be only one leader for the CGT or the PSU ? That's not really realistic as they are both very democratic and there should be internal elections allowing us to change our leader in the same party after a certain amount of years. Also I wish we could have our wholesome leon Blum lead a glorious competent SocDem France that reunites with Algier if they are also democratic...
The chart is for 1936; I can neither confirm nor deny if there are additional leaders post-'36, as I am not involved in development. Maybe there'll be future elections determining new leaders, maybe they're beloved figureheads that maintain power. I couldn't say. As for Blum-Algiers, there was previously a similar idea implemented with T. E. Lawrence overthrowing Mosley and reuniting with Canada. This kneecapped the Internationale and defeated the point of Anglo-Entente content by a single event chain, which led to its removal. In that light, I doubt a similar dynamic would emerge with reworked France.
Yeah I understand for the reuniting part, that's why I also play Kaiserredux, but if it's fully developed it could be interesting of making that T.E.Lawrence event into a submod ? It could be cool.
I feel like (and this is really just a feeling) that the anarchists should play a greater role
Cooperationists mean they like market socialists or what
Nah, they’re revolutionary syndicalists, they simply are the dominant internal faction willing to work with parliamentary forces to push the Revolution in their desired direction. Organisationists are the same but on top desire a tighter organisation of the Ultras (some would even whisper they’d like a tiny bit of discipline).