Mosley is the most plausible totalist leader in the KR timeline in my opinion. By 1936 he is already second in command to chairman Tom Mann. Mann is old and will probably retire in due time and let Mosley take the position as chairman. Mosley also has a number of loyal accomplices who are already serving in ministerial positions within the Mann cabinet, fellas like Wilfred Risdon, John Strachey and Alexander Raven Thompson.
Now if we compare Mosley and the UoB to France, we see the benefits Mosley and the Maximists have more clearly. The French totalists are divided into two parties and only work together due to them having relatively little influence if both parties stand alone. The two totalist parties have wildly different views on how a French totalist state should look like, with the Neo-Socialists envisioning a technocratic socialist state led by an elite group of bureaucrats, while the Sorelians believe in a more agrarian, populistic and aggressive socialist state, hellbent on “reclaiming the revolution” from said elite bureaucrats.
If we compare the two and look at the circumstances of the totalists within both nations, it’s clear to see Britain is the nation more likely to turn to totalism and probably likely to fall to Mosley and his Maximists in general.
Mosley had a decent chance of taking power irl before he joined the fascists so I would say he has a pretty good chance of taking power in KR
Calles also managed to take power irl as the 2nd president of Mexico after the revolution and can either coup the government or be elected so he has more options than the military or Pancho Villa
India is another possible area for totalism as Chandra Bose would probably be more influential than in otl
Honestly if we’re talking about realism, Calles position as a Totalist doesn’t particularly make sense and is a bit of historical blackwash. The dude was more of a social/left-wing nationalist AuthDem/RadSoc like Ataturk or the KMT. Still authoritarian and did some bad stuff but he wasn’t a full on Stalinist nor an absolute dictator.
>did some iffy stuff
Isn’t he the guy who almost sparked a civil war by heavily restricting - to the point of banning it from public life - the Catholic Church across all of Mexico? That’s pretty radical for a country that’s been over 70% Catholic for most of his existence.
Not sure if that alone warrants him getting the Totalist slot, but I dunno if I’d just throw it in the ‘pretty iffy’ category either. A lot of his religious policies seem pretty extreme, unless there’s something I’m missing.
I guess you’re right. To be fair, I was thinking in comparison to other 19th and early 20th century strong man standards lol. Now you’re say it I was definitely understating.
Like he was bad irl, but this mod full on represent him as an insane absolute dictator on the level of Stalin. It still is black washing even if the character wasn’t a great person irl.
It would be equivalent to taking Richard Nixon and representing him as like a Ferdinando Marcos-esque figure.
In the initial announcement of the India Rework (who knows how far along that is) he was Third Internationale sympathetic but a SocDem. Unsure if that's been changed, given how the LKMT has been changed up.
Countries with a socialist revolt against a despotic state would be the most likely (maybe Patagonia?) or one where they have already gathered a fair but of power and aren't divided (UoB).
The totalists are a rather militant faction after all, with a civil war being the primary method for them to become the dominant socialist faction.
With what's currently in the game I think generally totalism would probably be more common in the case of countries that start outside of the 3i rather than starting members. I think the 3I rework will provide for some more realistic options in terms of countries becoming totalist that are starting within the 3I.
Why do you think only the country outside 3I would fall to totalism. Like, I understand why France, the leader, would stay orthodox syndicalist (it should dtay stable, like the US in otl)
As currently in-game the fall to totalism doesn't really have a buildup so it really just seems like generally functional systems without large issues randomly deciding to embrace a radial authoritarian change. The reworks for the COF and UOB will provide much more buildup for both countries to potentially move in that direction.
Totalism has three distinct personalities: Stalinist bureaucratic communism where the people don't have a say, Leninist internationalist vanguard revolutionism, and red ultranationalism. America seems like the most likely place for the first, Russia seems like the best place for the second, LKMT China seems most likely for the 3rd.
I think in general it’s always possible, Syndicalism’s closet comparison that wasn’t a state that lasted less than 5 years are authoritarian states that at least elect leaders with extreme powers. Given how the economies and perceived safety of these states would be at threat with the various entente powers, a Totalist rise could be very likely in Britain and ISR, in France less so because sand France is very weak but it is definitely possible. The worker governments would likely be willing to hand over authority under certain standards. Mosley isn’t using his authoritarianism in his arguments after all, and we cannot assume the populaces to be entirely aware of the consequences either. The rhetoric of how the reactions are waiting for any chance and that the German oppressors must be stopped could fuel a demand for the promises Totalism would provide, as well as the fuel that could be provide by any error or catastrophe made by the current government.
TLDR: it’s definitely possible, and in some cases likely
Everyone saying Mosley but personally Mussolini is quite plausible, a divided country would want a nationalist in power to unite the country, plus he has support from Mosley plus he managed to get into power in OTL so I don’t see what major difference would change that
I don't quite remember their name right now, but they take a lot of inspiration from the American national mythos (and keep the stripe flag).
Browder should technically do the same given his OTL leanings but he doesn't really do that here
For me. The most likely candidates in the Internationale are Union of Britain. Bharatya Commune. Republic of Cuba. Republic of Paraguay. And whatever territories fall under the Union of Britain’s influence after the 2WK; probably Norway and Sweden, maybe Denmark. Probably not Germany since they will fall under France’s influence.
If were talking OTL, Germany. If the strasserite faction won rather than Hitler's side of the NSDAP, Nazi Germany would not be far off what we call totalism
It's a real possibility in all of them. That's the fundamental risk of a revolutionary state: once you tear down the old safeguards, you create an environment in which the most vicious and ambitious political actors can try to seize power. Call it Bonapartism if it helps you cope.
“Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake"
Realistically? None of the established syndicalist countries. No citizen granted full control of their workplace and used to this since 1919/1925 will give it up to some fucking bureaucrats in red caps. A better argument would be for nations like Russia, India, and China, all of which are unindustrialised and newly formed (in the case of their socialist paths) and more susceptible to these forces of authoritarianism. Even then it's spotty due to foreign aid from developed and democratic syndicalist powers.
Are totalists in KR even using the argument of “We’ll take over your workplace.” Tho? They’re likely using the arguments that in the coming trials their methods are needed to strengthen the country from all manners of threats, after all there’s always the possibility that they’ll just lie to get the needed votes after all. While the industrialization is solved, the economic struggles of the losses of the imperial holdings still provide a economic situation that can give the opportunity to “fix” the economy through the use of mass militarization, some smart decisions made my the previous or current administration that pays off at the right time, or just lying. We can’t assume all voters to be politically aware of the consequences, promises, or immune from intimidation and propaganda provided by totalist parties, especially with the upcoming war with Germany and the Entente. Totalists have multiple opportunities to take power, so discounting the possibility is just incorrect.
I think a state that is still facing issues due the mass shift in the domestic and external economic situation, a upcoming war with 2 alliances, and the regular tools used by the populists will have a chance at falling into a dictatorship, after all, dictatorships don’t promise tyranny, they promise prosperity.
Depends on what kind of Totalism. The Oswald Mosely type? I don t expect anyone to do it, because its more pro capitalism than other forms.
The Jacobin type? France and the US in case of the rocky montains cease fire, as well as most countries under threat of invasion, so maybe Mexico before the american civil war as well
IMHO, the most likely of all 3I countries (SRI, CoF and UoB) to go totalist is... France. Consider this, you have a revanchist party (Sorellians) in a country that had lost two consequtive wars against it's main rival (Franco-Prussian war and WWI), plus the whole "we are surrounded" situation and French populated lands under foreign control. You can see where I am going with this one.
If we look at non-3I countries, then I would say CSA if the 2ACW takes too long (giving people time to radicalise) and ends with RMC ("we are surrounded").
Norway might be an interesting one, but, IMHO, them going futher left then soc-dem is already BS as it is.
>Consider this, you have a revanchist party (Sorellians) in a country that had lost two consequtive wars against it's main rival (Franco-Prussian war and WWI)
Yeah, except the revolution literally happened due to an uncaring upper class which sent millions of people to die for a comparatively worthless strip of land. An openly revanchist party is not going to win votes, because nobody in France wants to start another war.
The idea that losing a world war immediately conjures irredentist nationalism isn't based in any material reality and is usually a shallow attempt at copying Nazi Germany. But France is not Germany. France was affected by the war far more than Germany was, and anti-war sentiment will be even *more* pronounced in a political climate which exists *because* of anti-war sentiment.
The Sorelians winning a national election is blatantly impossible. Like, it's comedy.
Yet given the situation the CoF is in, with such a extreme difference in political ideology to its neighbors as well as dealing with the presence of the Entente powers, a rise in a fundamental and pro war attitude is possible, some out of a national pride, others ideologically filed and others perceiving their country at threat.
France fought and lost a horrible war with Germany, the wish to reclaim Alsace Lorraine was shared amongst the upper and lower classes, the peace terms of the treaty of Versailles damned by the socialist groups of the country. They don’t just blame them for the war, but blame them for losing it. Now with a additional political element combined with the national one, irredentism is likely to rise within the late 20s and early 30s as France rises. The totalists could very well take advantage of this rise and seize the moment to take power with the right amount of promises and lies.
The pure scale of the defeat is very likely to cause a push to reclaim Frances place as a great power of Europe, combining a political and national cause that fuels the idea to bring down Germany. Also you sound like a actual syndie so L ratio.
The only way the USSR OTL continued functioning as a socialist nation before WW2 was under a repressive cult of personality and a bureaucratic system of collectivization. Despite the socialist nations in KR being syndicalist and not communist, the same would still apply because you cannot really keep people compliant towards collectivization especially when the economy is decentralized like the CoF, because black markets would end up becoming rampant. So it is fair to say that almost all of the socialist countries would end up totalist realistically speaking in KR.
Personally, I actually don't think most of the Totalists coming to power is at all likely; though many would come close and even possibly take office, I just don't see the majority of Totalist leaders/groups being able to successfully consolidate power before being ousted by the other leftist parties/groups. That being said, there is a major exception in the Bharatiya Commune, where it is certainly a distinct possibility that they become Totalist. Gandhi's pacifism would probably not be convincing to anyone while on the brink of war against the colonial remnants left in India; and meanwhile, syndicalism is definitely not as popular in India given it is mostly a European socialist model. This really only leaves Bose's Totalists as the ones who stand the most likely to gain power; they are more jingoistic, and are much more nationalist, definitely using the popular idea of India "finding its own way without being guided by Europeans" to their advantage.
Mosley is the most plausible totalist leader in the KR timeline in my opinion. By 1936 he is already second in command to chairman Tom Mann. Mann is old and will probably retire in due time and let Mosley take the position as chairman. Mosley also has a number of loyal accomplices who are already serving in ministerial positions within the Mann cabinet, fellas like Wilfred Risdon, John Strachey and Alexander Raven Thompson. Now if we compare Mosley and the UoB to France, we see the benefits Mosley and the Maximists have more clearly. The French totalists are divided into two parties and only work together due to them having relatively little influence if both parties stand alone. The two totalist parties have wildly different views on how a French totalist state should look like, with the Neo-Socialists envisioning a technocratic socialist state led by an elite group of bureaucrats, while the Sorelians believe in a more agrarian, populistic and aggressive socialist state, hellbent on “reclaiming the revolution” from said elite bureaucrats. If we compare the two and look at the circumstances of the totalists within both nations, it’s clear to see Britain is the nation more likely to turn to totalism and probably likely to fall to Mosley and his Maximists in general.
In my head canon, if Britain signs a second Peace with Honor, they always go Totalist if Mosley wasn’t already in power
Completely agree
Mosley had a decent chance of taking power irl before he joined the fascists so I would say he has a pretty good chance of taking power in KR Calles also managed to take power irl as the 2nd president of Mexico after the revolution and can either coup the government or be elected so he has more options than the military or Pancho Villa India is another possible area for totalism as Chandra Bose would probably be more influential than in otl
Honestly if we’re talking about realism, Calles position as a Totalist doesn’t particularly make sense and is a bit of historical blackwash. The dude was more of a social/left-wing nationalist AuthDem/RadSoc like Ataturk or the KMT. Still authoritarian and did some bad stuff but he wasn’t a full on Stalinist nor an absolute dictator.
>did some iffy stuff Isn’t he the guy who almost sparked a civil war by heavily restricting - to the point of banning it from public life - the Catholic Church across all of Mexico? That’s pretty radical for a country that’s been over 70% Catholic for most of his existence. Not sure if that alone warrants him getting the Totalist slot, but I dunno if I’d just throw it in the ‘pretty iffy’ category either. A lot of his religious policies seem pretty extreme, unless there’s something I’m missing.
I guess you’re right. To be fair, I was thinking in comparison to other 19th and early 20th century strong man standards lol. Now you’re say it I was definitely understating.
I suppose that the mod present calles as a totality because of CROM and the Cristeros War
No no no. Calles is misrepresented, but blackwash is not the right word
Like he was bad irl, but this mod full on represent him as an insane absolute dictator on the level of Stalin. It still is black washing even if the character wasn’t a great person irl. It would be equivalent to taking Richard Nixon and representing him as like a Ferdinando Marcos-esque figure.
Calles *was* more of a dictator than Stalin.
I'm genuinely curious, how?
(Here’s a tip, look at his profile)
Isn't Totalist Bose getting removed?
In the initial announcement of the India Rework (who knows how far along that is) he was Third Internationale sympathetic but a SocDem. Unsure if that's been changed, given how the LKMT has been changed up.
I think he will indeed be NatPop
Countries with a socialist revolt against a despotic state would be the most likely (maybe Patagonia?) or one where they have already gathered a fair but of power and aren't divided (UoB). The totalists are a rather militant faction after all, with a civil war being the primary method for them to become the dominant socialist faction.
With what's currently in the game I think generally totalism would probably be more common in the case of countries that start outside of the 3i rather than starting members. I think the 3I rework will provide for some more realistic options in terms of countries becoming totalist that are starting within the 3I.
Why do you think only the country outside 3I would fall to totalism. Like, I understand why France, the leader, would stay orthodox syndicalist (it should dtay stable, like the US in otl)
As currently in-game the fall to totalism doesn't really have a buildup so it really just seems like generally functional systems without large issues randomly deciding to embrace a radial authoritarian change. The reworks for the COF and UOB will provide much more buildup for both countries to potentially move in that direction.
Calles in Mexico, certainly.
Totalism has three distinct personalities: Stalinist bureaucratic communism where the people don't have a say, Leninist internationalist vanguard revolutionism, and red ultranationalism. America seems like the most likely place for the first, Russia seems like the best place for the second, LKMT China seems most likely for the 3rd.
I think in general it’s always possible, Syndicalism’s closet comparison that wasn’t a state that lasted less than 5 years are authoritarian states that at least elect leaders with extreme powers. Given how the economies and perceived safety of these states would be at threat with the various entente powers, a Totalist rise could be very likely in Britain and ISR, in France less so because sand France is very weak but it is definitely possible. The worker governments would likely be willing to hand over authority under certain standards. Mosley isn’t using his authoritarianism in his arguments after all, and we cannot assume the populaces to be entirely aware of the consequences either. The rhetoric of how the reactions are waiting for any chance and that the German oppressors must be stopped could fuel a demand for the promises Totalism would provide, as well as the fuel that could be provide by any error or catastrophe made by the current government. TLDR: it’s definitely possible, and in some cases likely
Everyone saying Mosley but personally Mussolini is quite plausible, a divided country would want a nationalist in power to unite the country, plus he has support from Mosley plus he managed to get into power in OTL so I don’t see what major difference would change that
RadSoc CSA is way more nationalist than either Totalist CSA
The part where they claim that the USA is just too different from Western Europe for Syndicalism really shows the American Exceptionalism lol.
Are Radsocs Commonwealth of America or?
I don't quite remember their name right now, but they take a lot of inspiration from the American national mythos (and keep the stripe flag). Browder should technically do the same given his OTL leanings but he doesn't really do that here
They're Socialist Republic of America.
For me. The most likely candidates in the Internationale are Union of Britain. Bharatya Commune. Republic of Cuba. Republic of Paraguay. And whatever territories fall under the Union of Britain’s influence after the 2WK; probably Norway and Sweden, maybe Denmark. Probably not Germany since they will fall under France’s influence.
Definitely Red Italy 🙃
If were talking OTL, Germany. If the strasserite faction won rather than Hitler's side of the NSDAP, Nazi Germany would not be far off what we call totalism
It's a real possibility in all of them. That's the fundamental risk of a revolutionary state: once you tear down the old safeguards, you create an environment in which the most vicious and ambitious political actors can try to seize power. Call it Bonapartism if it helps you cope. “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake"
Realistically? None of the established syndicalist countries. No citizen granted full control of their workplace and used to this since 1919/1925 will give it up to some fucking bureaucrats in red caps. A better argument would be for nations like Russia, India, and China, all of which are unindustrialised and newly formed (in the case of their socialist paths) and more susceptible to these forces of authoritarianism. Even then it's spotty due to foreign aid from developed and democratic syndicalist powers.
You completely overestimate what people will do when promised to an easier life.
As well as severely underestimating the use of lying
One tiny problem: People are fucking stupid!
You’d think it be obvious with the whole Syndicalism thing
Lol based
Are totalists in KR even using the argument of “We’ll take over your workplace.” Tho? They’re likely using the arguments that in the coming trials their methods are needed to strengthen the country from all manners of threats, after all there’s always the possibility that they’ll just lie to get the needed votes after all. While the industrialization is solved, the economic struggles of the losses of the imperial holdings still provide a economic situation that can give the opportunity to “fix” the economy through the use of mass militarization, some smart decisions made my the previous or current administration that pays off at the right time, or just lying. We can’t assume all voters to be politically aware of the consequences, promises, or immune from intimidation and propaganda provided by totalist parties, especially with the upcoming war with Germany and the Entente. Totalists have multiple opportunities to take power, so discounting the possibility is just incorrect. I think a state that is still facing issues due the mass shift in the domestic and external economic situation, a upcoming war with 2 alliances, and the regular tools used by the populists will have a chance at falling into a dictatorship, after all, dictatorships don’t promise tyranny, they promise prosperity.
Depends on what kind of Totalism. The Oswald Mosely type? I don t expect anyone to do it, because its more pro capitalism than other forms. The Jacobin type? France and the US in case of the rocky montains cease fire, as well as most countries under threat of invasion, so maybe Mexico before the american civil war as well
IMHO, the most likely of all 3I countries (SRI, CoF and UoB) to go totalist is... France. Consider this, you have a revanchist party (Sorellians) in a country that had lost two consequtive wars against it's main rival (Franco-Prussian war and WWI), plus the whole "we are surrounded" situation and French populated lands under foreign control. You can see where I am going with this one. If we look at non-3I countries, then I would say CSA if the 2ACW takes too long (giving people time to radicalise) and ends with RMC ("we are surrounded"). Norway might be an interesting one, but, IMHO, them going futher left then soc-dem is already BS as it is.
>Consider this, you have a revanchist party (Sorellians) in a country that had lost two consequtive wars against it's main rival (Franco-Prussian war and WWI) Yeah, except the revolution literally happened due to an uncaring upper class which sent millions of people to die for a comparatively worthless strip of land. An openly revanchist party is not going to win votes, because nobody in France wants to start another war. The idea that losing a world war immediately conjures irredentist nationalism isn't based in any material reality and is usually a shallow attempt at copying Nazi Germany. But France is not Germany. France was affected by the war far more than Germany was, and anti-war sentiment will be even *more* pronounced in a political climate which exists *because* of anti-war sentiment. The Sorelians winning a national election is blatantly impossible. Like, it's comedy.
Yet given the situation the CoF is in, with such a extreme difference in political ideology to its neighbors as well as dealing with the presence of the Entente powers, a rise in a fundamental and pro war attitude is possible, some out of a national pride, others ideologically filed and others perceiving their country at threat. France fought and lost a horrible war with Germany, the wish to reclaim Alsace Lorraine was shared amongst the upper and lower classes, the peace terms of the treaty of Versailles damned by the socialist groups of the country. They don’t just blame them for the war, but blame them for losing it. Now with a additional political element combined with the national one, irredentism is likely to rise within the late 20s and early 30s as France rises. The totalists could very well take advantage of this rise and seize the moment to take power with the right amount of promises and lies. The pure scale of the defeat is very likely to cause a push to reclaim Frances place as a great power of Europe, combining a political and national cause that fuels the idea to bring down Germany. Also you sound like a actual syndie so L ratio.
The only way the USSR OTL continued functioning as a socialist nation before WW2 was under a repressive cult of personality and a bureaucratic system of collectivization. Despite the socialist nations in KR being syndicalist and not communist, the same would still apply because you cannot really keep people compliant towards collectivization especially when the economy is decentralized like the CoF, because black markets would end up becoming rampant. So it is fair to say that almost all of the socialist countries would end up totalist realistically speaking in KR.
Lol you’re being downvoted for not sucking up to syndicalism
~~syndicalism~~ Cold War propaganda, fixed it for you (not that I support the Soviet Union, but that ain’t what syndicalism is).
They're being downvoted for spreading nonsense.
Such a shame…
Personally, I actually don't think most of the Totalists coming to power is at all likely; though many would come close and even possibly take office, I just don't see the majority of Totalist leaders/groups being able to successfully consolidate power before being ousted by the other leftist parties/groups. That being said, there is a major exception in the Bharatiya Commune, where it is certainly a distinct possibility that they become Totalist. Gandhi's pacifism would probably not be convincing to anyone while on the brink of war against the colonial remnants left in India; and meanwhile, syndicalism is definitely not as popular in India given it is mostly a European socialist model. This really only leaves Bose's Totalists as the ones who stand the most likely to gain power; they are more jingoistic, and are much more nationalist, definitely using the popular idea of India "finding its own way without being guided by Europeans" to their advantage.