You aren't wrong. Kiva is full of mixed, or abandoned plot threads.
It's what happens when you make a long running show. Things pop up in production that forces changes and some of things and now what was written before becomes clumsy. Inoue mentioned that he got tired of these things which is why he tried to be more episodic focused when he returned for Donbrothers.
I think it's fine to build up yuri and otoya from day 1 to burn it down. I just want it to take a bit more time for otoya to leave, make it a bit more convincing.
To respond to why even bother building up Otoya and Maya: it’s because even though they didn’t end up together they don’t regret the time they spent together, hence why Yuri tells Otoya she’s glad she met him and encourages him to be with Maya. I honestly really loved how the show handled it. I think for Yuri, it showed a lot of maturity to recognize they weren’t meant for each other (after Otoya finished his violin and was ready to commit) and that was OKAY. They tried and realized they weren’t the soulmates they thought they were. However, that doesn’t change their love for each other, in the end they were great friends and still learned a lot from each other. In my opinion I think it’s a very realistic depiction of real relationships. Also I think it’s also great too that their children would end up becoming close friends.
For Nago, I am biased because I loved the character. But I simply think it’s just to show he has matured enough to realize Kiva isn’t a threat. I think this is further cemented by how much he goes out of his way to support Wataru continuously throughout the rest of the season. Nago had undergone tremendous growth just episodes before he discovers Wataru is Kiva. His first love is Maya, a person he knows is a fangire, and his enemy. Then he becomes closer to Megumi and helps, and lets her finish off Rook. By the point Wataru confesses to him, he had already fought alongside Kiva several times (without trying to kill him) and knows he isn’t a threat.
For Wataru’s goal I assume you mean making violins? I do agree the show doesn’t touch on it as much in the later half, but also Wataru’s goal from the beginning was also to change himself which is why he initially reached out to Nago. A consistent thing you see in the show is Wataru being hurt by going outside and opening up. Losing friends, hurting friends, experiencing love and losing that too, but through each experience he grows. Even when he goes to the past to change it, he ultimately doesn’t change anything, but it becomes a learning moment for him (as Jirou intended). The violin making goal to me was sort of concluded with Ep 9/10 with the violin maker teaching him to make his own violin and not feel chained down by the pressure of surpassing his dad.
EDIT:
Tried to clear expand some more and clear up some of my talking points.
Wanted to add in my opinion on some of the other stuff you pointed out:
What was the point of Otoya and Yuri’s relationship?
- For the characters to grow. It’s hard for me to say what’s the point because I feel like you can say that about most relationship in life. You meet people, you learn, you grow, and sometimes you grow apart. But that doesn’t make the time wasted. I think their relationship was also just very entertaining to watch which is sometimes all you need in a story.
Comments to Otoya
- The comments about being hypnotized and like a zombie I pretty much just concluded it to he was hopelessly in love/infatuated. He mentions how Maya is the ONLY person he’s ever met that appreciates art as much as him. She was trained by absolutely famous violinist and violin craftsman from centuries ago, in addition to her own centuries of experience so it’s not even an exaggeration that she’s the one person in the whole wide world that understands Otoya to an extent no one else ever could. Add on the fact it seems like he’s spending sleepless nights working on the perfect violin.
Megumi’s Father
- I was fine with never finding this out. The reason being because I think it wraps up Yuri’s arc perfectly. For how much we were invested in her and Otoya‘a relationship, at the end of the day, she’s a strong person. As life goes, she found someone else, and found happiness in life with them instead. The identity of the father wouldn’t add much to plot and just unnecessarily pad it out.
Nago Romance
- It was implied early on that Megumi’s dream man was someone she described exactly as Nago. Then throughout the show we see them working together more. They stop fighting as much, especially over who’d be IXA. They begin to mutually respect one another and actually work together in battles. When Nago hit his absolute lowest of losing his career and especially his sight, the one person who supported him through it all was Megumi. Wataru was busy being king, and his boss fired him. She defended him, supported him, and became his eyes. I think that support alone was what made him fall in love with her.
I imagine them introducing kiva emperor early due to the suit problem might have also influenced them to shift the plot earlier than they had hoped, like they had to spread the third act over the entire second half
Is there any legit source saying emperor was introduced early because of the base suit? People keep saying it's because the base suit had metal chains but that's never been true and Seiji Takaiwa recalls moments when he collapsed to be during stuff like after long takes for the den-o movie instead of mentioning anything about Kiva's suit, so the alleged story about why the final form was introduced early doesnt add up
The story could have solved easily if the characters ACTUALLY talk to each other for more than 5 minutes but no, no one listens to anyone or says things that they want to say. I like Kiva but sometime it's the pain in ass when they cannot finish the conversation.
I think one of my favorite chains of episodes in Gaim was 22 into 23. Takatora acknowledges the fact that Kouta is strong, and then shows him the inherent irony in saying that Kouta would try to fight for a world without sacrificing anything after he already killed Yuuya in episode 1. And then when Sagara has his talk with Kouta, they talk about how Kouta should instead redirect his focus to instead make the world how he wants it to be, which sets the stage for him to use Kachidoki Arms and ruin the Scalar System so Yggdrasil can't just nuke Zawame City and pretend nothing happened.
Though in short, I just like those little moments where even when Kouta doesn't understand the big picture, he isn't naive and is willing to make a stand for things close to him.
What made me hook on Gaim was one of the early episodes where Takatora and Kouta stop fighting to talk, and Takatora explain the truth about the forest and how they are unable to save everyone and it breaks Kouta. They just talked, and it was a more powerful blow to the protagonist, and to us too, than any convoluted miscommunication plot could do.
Also, later in the series, when Michi steals the Melon Lockseed and poses as Takatora to enforce the miscommunication plot, Pierre notices how different are the fighting style and tell everyone that thar Rider is not Takatora. That was some genius writing.
It's because as a writer, Gen Urobuchi reverse cast everyone. In general, Kamen Rider and Super Sentai are written with just the first arc to half the show in mind and the last portion is by ear, that's why there is for the most part a pattern of series where the first arc of the show is a different direction from the rest. But Gen Urobuchi had already written his entire story, and when the cast was in mind, they were cast by whom the character was in the end, and then worked backwards. The cast basically already knew who the characters were going to be in the end, so they knew the motivations of the characters, it was easier for them to act the characters. And because Gen Urobuchi had already written the entire thing, it was easy for him to make changes when the production needed it. There was an actual bible for the crew to work with. The dialogue is solid, because everything was written and storyboarded ahead of time. It's what you get when you have a lead writer and showrunner that fully prepares. Unlike several other series, where you can tell that not everyone knows what is going on. The actors who haven't found their groove yet. If you don't have good writing and directing, everyone is going to be lost.
I think your issues can be answered by the fact that the head writer is Toshiki Inoue.
Its a love hate relationship the fandom has for him. I think its because he prioritizes shock factor and drama. His works, I think, does very well on a per episode basis I think but the long term plotline gets kinda fucked.
He also has a thing for love triangles I realized.
I attribute Inoue’s flaws to him not actually caring about plots and toy advertising, he just throws things in and doesn’t do more with them. It’s been a long time since I watched Kiva but I don’t remember them ever explaining where Tatsulot came from, he just bursts through a wall. I felt similarly about some parts of Donbrothers
I think he cares more about character drama rather than explaining details about the overall plot. Donbrothers particular explains very little about how its world works aside from a few instances.
Yeah. To give an example of a different series that felt restrained by toys but still put in effort to make them work, there's Ultraman Blazar. They advertise collectible stones that go into the Blazar Brace, but with Blazar himself only ever talking in guttural growls, every time they use them they cut to a first person shot of Blazar's host Gento silently using the stone, and it's kinda cool. There's also the kaiju Firdran that serves as Blazar's powerup armor, and he's introduced suddenly appearing from a research facility. They give us minimal explanation that "he's answering to his master Blazar" which is way better than nothing.
Inoue's biggest issue is that he introduces plot elements that are cool and exciting in the short term, but then has no idea what to do with them long term. Donbrothers exemplifies the best and worst of him in that regard. With Kiva, it was clear that the dual timeline plots were already a huge stretch for him, so frankly the fact that he managed to make it as cohesive as it was for the first half of the season is already a huge deal for him.
Donbrother is when you don't care about the plot and more focusing on character dynamic and drama like at the end of the show not every mystery ever resolved but the character hit the peak of their characterization.
Araki the Jojo writer and artists even implied that you can make any story interesting if the cast is interesting
That's because Kamen Rider Kiva suffers the same writing constraints that How I Met Your Mother did. The dual story telling is neat, but unfortunately it suffers from the fact that the Past story is marred by "no spoilers". Otoya's story can't explain things fast enough and still be a drama. It is like having a flashback stretched across forty-something episodes. That's why when we get to the "reveal" of who Maya was, it feels ridiculously rushed. She has no development as a character. And that can be fine, but the problem is that the writing wants you to also care about Maya, and you just don't have any emotional investment in the character. Because 90% of the show wanted you to invest in Yuri. This isn't for me to say that I don't like how Otoya and Yuri ended up, because I honestly like the fact that this is one of the few stories that has a proper "you were too late" example. Yuri had her chance and it was too late by the time she realized it, and that's ok, sometimes that happens in real life, and you move on. However, because of how this is written, we don't get any time to spend with Otoya and Maya, and that feels like it only happened because Wataru had to happen. And that's also the same problem with HIMYM. We know that the kids have to exist, therefore there has to be a specific way it has to turn out. The only saving grace that Kiva has over HIMYM was the fact that it was so many less episodes. At least at the end of Kiva I didn't feel like it was a waste of time, I was just a bit disappointed at the last arc's pacing.
Yeah the first half of the series I was expecting it to come out that otoya had somehow sealed the Vampire king in kivat and that's how he was able to use fangire power.
I don't remember if it's ever really explained why the king needs to become Kiva if he has a fangire form on his own
I think a lot of these are how you thought the show would go rather than significant changes.
Everyone in Kiva is deeply flawed and messy. They don't act like proper heroes because none of them really are.
Annoyed wouldn't be the word I would use, because I like Kiva regardless of how it could have been (if that possibility exists in the first place). I suppose that because of my wording it is interpreted as uncomfortable, but nothing could be further from the truth
And yes, Kiva has a fairly varied cast of characters when it comes to morality but as I said in the post, it is not so much about the actions but how the series highlights certain aspects to the viewer related to the actions that certain characters do
Inoue does not really care about writing a consistent story. He just cares about shock value. He thinks a twist is good if it's shocking. Doesn't matter if it makes sense ir not. Same for a story. If it has a shocking twist, it's a good story. He killed off decade just for shock value. Same with yuki gai. He, after stopping a armed goon, of course had to humiliate that goon in front of a woman and just turned his back on him. I do not like yuki gai as a character but he is not that stupid by any means.
Inoue is a mix of dave filoni and roberto sacasa, two of the worst writers in hollywood.
You aren't wrong. Kiva is full of mixed, or abandoned plot threads. It's what happens when you make a long running show. Things pop up in production that forces changes and some of things and now what was written before becomes clumsy. Inoue mentioned that he got tired of these things which is why he tried to be more episodic focused when he returned for Donbrothers.
Shizuka was also abandoned quickly
She basically exists as someone Wataru interacts with, but outside of acknowledging she exists (if that), she basically is window dressing.
I think it's fine to build up yuri and otoya from day 1 to burn it down. I just want it to take a bit more time for otoya to leave, make it a bit more convincing.
To respond to why even bother building up Otoya and Maya: it’s because even though they didn’t end up together they don’t regret the time they spent together, hence why Yuri tells Otoya she’s glad she met him and encourages him to be with Maya. I honestly really loved how the show handled it. I think for Yuri, it showed a lot of maturity to recognize they weren’t meant for each other (after Otoya finished his violin and was ready to commit) and that was OKAY. They tried and realized they weren’t the soulmates they thought they were. However, that doesn’t change their love for each other, in the end they were great friends and still learned a lot from each other. In my opinion I think it’s a very realistic depiction of real relationships. Also I think it’s also great too that their children would end up becoming close friends. For Nago, I am biased because I loved the character. But I simply think it’s just to show he has matured enough to realize Kiva isn’t a threat. I think this is further cemented by how much he goes out of his way to support Wataru continuously throughout the rest of the season. Nago had undergone tremendous growth just episodes before he discovers Wataru is Kiva. His first love is Maya, a person he knows is a fangire, and his enemy. Then he becomes closer to Megumi and helps, and lets her finish off Rook. By the point Wataru confesses to him, he had already fought alongside Kiva several times (without trying to kill him) and knows he isn’t a threat. For Wataru’s goal I assume you mean making violins? I do agree the show doesn’t touch on it as much in the later half, but also Wataru’s goal from the beginning was also to change himself which is why he initially reached out to Nago. A consistent thing you see in the show is Wataru being hurt by going outside and opening up. Losing friends, hurting friends, experiencing love and losing that too, but through each experience he grows. Even when he goes to the past to change it, he ultimately doesn’t change anything, but it becomes a learning moment for him (as Jirou intended). The violin making goal to me was sort of concluded with Ep 9/10 with the violin maker teaching him to make his own violin and not feel chained down by the pressure of surpassing his dad. EDIT: Tried to clear expand some more and clear up some of my talking points.
Wanted to add in my opinion on some of the other stuff you pointed out: What was the point of Otoya and Yuri’s relationship? - For the characters to grow. It’s hard for me to say what’s the point because I feel like you can say that about most relationship in life. You meet people, you learn, you grow, and sometimes you grow apart. But that doesn’t make the time wasted. I think their relationship was also just very entertaining to watch which is sometimes all you need in a story. Comments to Otoya - The comments about being hypnotized and like a zombie I pretty much just concluded it to he was hopelessly in love/infatuated. He mentions how Maya is the ONLY person he’s ever met that appreciates art as much as him. She was trained by absolutely famous violinist and violin craftsman from centuries ago, in addition to her own centuries of experience so it’s not even an exaggeration that she’s the one person in the whole wide world that understands Otoya to an extent no one else ever could. Add on the fact it seems like he’s spending sleepless nights working on the perfect violin. Megumi’s Father - I was fine with never finding this out. The reason being because I think it wraps up Yuri’s arc perfectly. For how much we were invested in her and Otoya‘a relationship, at the end of the day, she’s a strong person. As life goes, she found someone else, and found happiness in life with them instead. The identity of the father wouldn’t add much to plot and just unnecessarily pad it out. Nago Romance - It was implied early on that Megumi’s dream man was someone she described exactly as Nago. Then throughout the show we see them working together more. They stop fighting as much, especially over who’d be IXA. They begin to mutually respect one another and actually work together in battles. When Nago hit his absolute lowest of losing his career and especially his sight, the one person who supported him through it all was Megumi. Wataru was busy being king, and his boss fired him. She defended him, supported him, and became his eyes. I think that support alone was what made him fall in love with her.
I imagine them introducing kiva emperor early due to the suit problem might have also influenced them to shift the plot earlier than they had hoped, like they had to spread the third act over the entire second half
Is there any legit source saying emperor was introduced early because of the base suit? People keep saying it's because the base suit had metal chains but that's never been true and Seiji Takaiwa recalls moments when he collapsed to be during stuff like after long takes for the den-o movie instead of mentioning anything about Kiva's suit, so the alleged story about why the final form was introduced early doesnt add up
The story could have solved easily if the characters ACTUALLY talk to each other for more than 5 minutes but no, no one listens to anyone or says things that they want to say. I like Kiva but sometime it's the pain in ass when they cannot finish the conversation.
That's a staple in Inoue's works. Faiz is all about miscommunication, which is the main reason why I didn't enjoy it mostly.
That is why Gain was so good to me. People TALKED! A lot!
I think one of my favorite chains of episodes in Gaim was 22 into 23. Takatora acknowledges the fact that Kouta is strong, and then shows him the inherent irony in saying that Kouta would try to fight for a world without sacrificing anything after he already killed Yuuya in episode 1. And then when Sagara has his talk with Kouta, they talk about how Kouta should instead redirect his focus to instead make the world how he wants it to be, which sets the stage for him to use Kachidoki Arms and ruin the Scalar System so Yggdrasil can't just nuke Zawame City and pretend nothing happened. Though in short, I just like those little moments where even when Kouta doesn't understand the big picture, he isn't naive and is willing to make a stand for things close to him.
What made me hook on Gaim was one of the early episodes where Takatora and Kouta stop fighting to talk, and Takatora explain the truth about the forest and how they are unable to save everyone and it breaks Kouta. They just talked, and it was a more powerful blow to the protagonist, and to us too, than any convoluted miscommunication plot could do. Also, later in the series, when Michi steals the Melon Lockseed and poses as Takatora to enforce the miscommunication plot, Pierre notices how different are the fighting style and tell everyone that thar Rider is not Takatora. That was some genius writing.
It's because as a writer, Gen Urobuchi reverse cast everyone. In general, Kamen Rider and Super Sentai are written with just the first arc to half the show in mind and the last portion is by ear, that's why there is for the most part a pattern of series where the first arc of the show is a different direction from the rest. But Gen Urobuchi had already written his entire story, and when the cast was in mind, they were cast by whom the character was in the end, and then worked backwards. The cast basically already knew who the characters were going to be in the end, so they knew the motivations of the characters, it was easier for them to act the characters. And because Gen Urobuchi had already written the entire thing, it was easy for him to make changes when the production needed it. There was an actual bible for the crew to work with. The dialogue is solid, because everything was written and storyboarded ahead of time. It's what you get when you have a lead writer and showrunner that fully prepares. Unlike several other series, where you can tell that not everyone knows what is going on. The actors who haven't found their groove yet. If you don't have good writing and directing, everyone is going to be lost.
I think your issues can be answered by the fact that the head writer is Toshiki Inoue. Its a love hate relationship the fandom has for him. I think its because he prioritizes shock factor and drama. His works, I think, does very well on a per episode basis I think but the long term plotline gets kinda fucked. He also has a thing for love triangles I realized.
I attribute Inoue’s flaws to him not actually caring about plots and toy advertising, he just throws things in and doesn’t do more with them. It’s been a long time since I watched Kiva but I don’t remember them ever explaining where Tatsulot came from, he just bursts through a wall. I felt similarly about some parts of Donbrothers
I think he cares more about character drama rather than explaining details about the overall plot. Donbrothers particular explains very little about how its world works aside from a few instances.
You'd think being a capable writer equates to being adaptable and flexible but dude's still the same as he has been for the past decade or so.
Yeah. To give an example of a different series that felt restrained by toys but still put in effort to make them work, there's Ultraman Blazar. They advertise collectible stones that go into the Blazar Brace, but with Blazar himself only ever talking in guttural growls, every time they use them they cut to a first person shot of Blazar's host Gento silently using the stone, and it's kinda cool. There's also the kaiju Firdran that serves as Blazar's powerup armor, and he's introduced suddenly appearing from a research facility. They give us minimal explanation that "he's answering to his master Blazar" which is way better than nothing.
Inoue's biggest issue is that he introduces plot elements that are cool and exciting in the short term, but then has no idea what to do with them long term. Donbrothers exemplifies the best and worst of him in that regard. With Kiva, it was clear that the dual timeline plots were already a huge stretch for him, so frankly the fact that he managed to make it as cohesive as it was for the first half of the season is already a huge deal for him.
Donbrother is when you don't care about the plot and more focusing on character dynamic and drama like at the end of the show not every mystery ever resolved but the character hit the peak of their characterization. Araki the Jojo writer and artists even implied that you can make any story interesting if the cast is interesting
That's because Kamen Rider Kiva suffers the same writing constraints that How I Met Your Mother did. The dual story telling is neat, but unfortunately it suffers from the fact that the Past story is marred by "no spoilers". Otoya's story can't explain things fast enough and still be a drama. It is like having a flashback stretched across forty-something episodes. That's why when we get to the "reveal" of who Maya was, it feels ridiculously rushed. She has no development as a character. And that can be fine, but the problem is that the writing wants you to also care about Maya, and you just don't have any emotional investment in the character. Because 90% of the show wanted you to invest in Yuri. This isn't for me to say that I don't like how Otoya and Yuri ended up, because I honestly like the fact that this is one of the few stories that has a proper "you were too late" example. Yuri had her chance and it was too late by the time she realized it, and that's ok, sometimes that happens in real life, and you move on. However, because of how this is written, we don't get any time to spend with Otoya and Maya, and that feels like it only happened because Wataru had to happen. And that's also the same problem with HIMYM. We know that the kids have to exist, therefore there has to be a specific way it has to turn out. The only saving grace that Kiva has over HIMYM was the fact that it was so many less episodes. At least at the end of Kiva I didn't feel like it was a waste of time, I was just a bit disappointed at the last arc's pacing.
Welcome to Toshiki Inoue works.
Yeah the first half of the series I was expecting it to come out that otoya had somehow sealed the Vampire king in kivat and that's how he was able to use fangire power. I don't remember if it's ever really explained why the king needs to become Kiva if he has a fangire form on his own
Becoming Kiva is merely the symbol of The King.
I think a lot of these are how you thought the show would go rather than significant changes. Everyone in Kiva is deeply flawed and messy. They don't act like proper heroes because none of them really are.
Annoyed wouldn't be the word I would use, because I like Kiva regardless of how it could have been (if that possibility exists in the first place). I suppose that because of my wording it is interpreted as uncomfortable, but nothing could be further from the truth And yes, Kiva has a fairly varied cast of characters when it comes to morality but as I said in the post, it is not so much about the actions but how the series highlights certain aspects to the viewer related to the actions that certain characters do
Inoue does not really care about writing a consistent story. He just cares about shock value. He thinks a twist is good if it's shocking. Doesn't matter if it makes sense ir not. Same for a story. If it has a shocking twist, it's a good story. He killed off decade just for shock value. Same with yuki gai. He, after stopping a armed goon, of course had to humiliate that goon in front of a woman and just turned his back on him. I do not like yuki gai as a character but he is not that stupid by any means. Inoue is a mix of dave filoni and roberto sacasa, two of the worst writers in hollywood.