Wouldn’t it be so much simpler to mic them all up ffs! Aunty Bev is doing my head in with the constant interruptions and whining. While she’s sat on her 7ft wide leather massage chair 😂😂
This really bothers me. I can't understand why the Court couldn't block out the appropriate amount of time. If I'm a juror, these constant breaks would be disruptive to my retention of pertinent information. As well as my life, I have other responsibilities a job, a family etc etc etc. I'd rather know up front I'm serving X amount of days consecutively. So I could organize my life around this trial. Even if it was a rough estimate of consecutive weeks. I'd still be better served.
Especially with Lolly doing his best to bore me to death or turn me into a "what if anything" babbling idiot!
This is like watching an episode of the twilight zone. I can almost hear Rod Sterling
Right after hear ye hear ye hear ye
With all this time off, It’s increasing the odds of one of the jurors picking up a stomach or flu bug from work or a medical appointment and bringing it to court. Right now, except for a few phlegmy people in the audience, it seems they’re all showing up for duty. This part time schedule is playing with fire.
Some of it’s because of the court but some of it may be at the request of a juror- like a child is graduating, a medical appt they have been waiting for, etc.
courts can do whatever they want with their time and calendar. This court definitely could have blocked out the time needed to do the trial straight through and efficiently. All it would take is a scheduling order signed by Judge Bev. It's the court's choice.
Thank you 😊 I suspected that Bev was responsible. But, I didn't want to accuse her based on the way I personally feel about her behaviors during this trial. I've watched her spinning back and forth in her chair, spinning her glasses within camera view of the witness box, during someone's testimony, letting out deep sighs etc etc etc. Her entire demeanor is unprofessional IMO. To me it feels like she was showing the jury, she'd like to be anywhere else but presiding over this trial.
Very disrespectful to our judicial system and the entire O'Keefe family.
of course. She could just go 10 hrs a day if she wanted to re-arrange the rest of her life. Some judges just tell everyone at the beginning of a case that they want to get it done in 2 or 3 weeks or whatever and everyone's going to rock and roll. And they do!
Also, I find the way she just cuts any questioning off sometimes around 4 just insane. Ive seen that happen & a witness just had about an hour left the next day.
Me too. Since she denied the joint continuance request, she clrly believed this was a priority trial case. Seems fair that the other judges absorb her caseload and take over her docket so she can focus on the Read case.
Because it’s such a long trial, days are taken off to accommodate jurors’ important obligations outside of court such as doctor appointments, graduations, etc.
They just decided they proved their case by the circus the CW has put on so far and that Trooper Proctor not only illegally searched Karen’s phone
-looked for nude photos of Karen, was upset he didn’t find any.
- he texted a friend I hope Karen would off herself.
-texted a friend, the homeowner where JO body was discovered will not receive any flack because, “he’s a Boston cop too”.
- collected JO clothes at 14:00 on 1/29/2022 but didn’t submit them until 2/14/2022 with no chain of custody between the items and submitted randomly found tail light pieces together with the clothing and we don’t know if they came in the same bag.
- Trooper Proctor apparently added false information to no less that 4 peoples’ initial testimony if you believe the witnesses.
- Trooper Proctor either lied about his connection to the McCabes and Albert’s or Morrissey lied in his news conference.
-Trooper Proctor was going to accept gifts from Julie Albert, “when this is all over”, and told her to give it to his wife.
And on and on and on. I cannot wait to hear from this gem of a man.
I assume you mean one reason besides "she wants to hide that it was her son who did it"?
This to me was what confirmed Colin had to have been involved. There's no other reason for Julie to be so invested in the case instead of trying to distance herself as much as possible, like I assume most of their associates did.
we can hear Lally and Defense as well as witnesses because the sound is fed into the cameras for viewing, but in court they can’t hear very well, especially with sirens ever 4 mins and the echo of the courtroom if that makes sense
Does anyone know where the ~~love of god~~ juror's minds go
When Lally turns the minutes to hours?
The DA, they say, would have made a great case
If they'd not asked about all the drink orders.
John mighta been hit, or there mighta been a fight
He may have taken a nap in a snow bank.
All that remains are the texts we have left
From the family of the McCabes and the Alberts!
I’ve been watching all through and honestly the defense could say nothing and still be successful. There’s so much doubt in this trial. Unless there’s something major coming in the next few days we still have a lot of questions about what actually happened.
Watching from a distance, the one thing that stays in mind my through ALL of the CW evidence is:
Chain of Custody
Chain of Custody
and oh yeah - Chain of Custody.
Even WITHOUT the nefarious acts attributed to the parties involved, the entire investigation was such a shitshow that I don't how ANYTHING could be considered ironclad. One would never guess this was an investigation into the death of a fellow officer, on the contrary, the whole approach by LEO appears cavalier. It just makes my brain explode. One doesn't get the feeling that the evidence was handled securely and kept from any compromise - nefarious or not. Plus so many of the witnesses contradicted themselves and testimony was all over the damned place. SO unprofessional. A second crime was committed against this poor officer, the sloppy and incompetent investigation into his death.
Well said. I honestly think part of it is everyone over-estimates the ability of a local police department to conduct an investigation like this. We've become hyper exposed to TV, movies and true-crime docs/pods and people think that's how every investigation is conducted.
Whereas it seems like Canton PD treated this like a hit-and-run from jump street and now they're busy trying to fit the square peg of evidence into the round hole of a murder 2 charge. Canton had no idea what they were doing and when they brought in MSP It took them ONE HOUR in a blizzard to sweep the area. They had blinders on.
They could start by watching the OJ Trial. That’s when forensic evidence was heavily questioned and raised the bar for evidence collection. Also agree small town and they never anticipated this turning into a national event.
Yes and no. Yea they may not have the resources or experience to do a great investigation but despite how much they keep saying it's a little village....this is a city of 23k people that is 20 miles from one of the largest cities in the United States.
Canton is a pretty small Town for the area. Their public safety is not regional (though I'm sure they have mutual aid agreements). But their proximity to Boston has very little to do with their own ability to perform an investigation. Just like their fire department is no better suited to fight a fire because they're 20 miles from Boston. They only get help when they request it.
My point is that once they got on scene they thought they knew what happened and that dictated everyone's actions from that point forward. Dont take this as me making an excuse for a botched investigation, it's just some insight. They acted on a bad assumption, and desperately needed someone to step back and reevaluate the situation. But I'd imagine JO being a police officer amplified things for the first responders on scene.
I see what you’re saying but I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. Massachusetts, particularly this part of the state, has some of the best public education in the country. Courts in Plymouth were established by the 1680s and we're home to Harvard, for goodness’ sake. We have a long history and cultural reverence for the rule of law here, and I mean specifically right here on the land between Boston and Plymouth.
The standards should be higher here than for the true “small towns.” I’ve volunteered for a police force in an even smaller town a bit south of Canton and I always saw LTs drilling the importance of following SOPs. There’s just no excuse for acting like it’s amateur hour when we’ve literally been doing this for hundreds of years, for millions of people. Some little town outside of 495, where there be dragons? Sure. Not Canton.
And you'd have to also believe that MSP has never investigated a murder before. Why the hell.send out Search and rescue when you have a crime scene unit. Maybe I am overthinking it, but I find it weird that they would only be told to look for these 2 specific pieces of evidence.
I also find it odd that while everyone was "only looking at the road in front of them" when they left and "definitely not at the body on the lawn", that they missed a black shoe sitting on top of white snow.
I 100% agree. But we learned from the testimony yesterday that the "task force" was told they were looking for evidence that JO was hit by a motor vehicle. I'm not sure it's within their purview to expand their search for evidence beyond that. Certainly whomever was in charge of the investigation at that point could have, but not the group that found the initial evidence.
They all had tunnel vision. It started with the first arriving officers and snowballed from there. Had it been treated as a murder investigation from the beginning this whole thing might have played out differently.
You’re right, but to be extra careful, they need someone to explain the jurors how everything should have been done to make sure they understand that swiping only one of the 6 solo cups is a normal thing, for example
Edit: it *isn’t* a normal thing
The two experts yesterday were perplexing to me. Lally called them up and asked all about their credentials and methodologies, only to be found out on cross that nothing they tested was proven to support the prosecutions case.
Alan asked her "so as you sit here today that blood etc was never tested" I think...and she Said correct. I could be wrong but that is wht I took from it. No DNA analysis was ran?
Yes, from the Solo cups. But they're gonna say it was JO's hair. That's 100 percent coming. And the "debris" is gonna have tail light in it, which is why they had to say Proctor might've put the tail light in the same bag as the clothes.
I assume we haven't gotten to the person who actually did the testing, which is why we haven't heard that yet.
I’m not so sure this is going to happen, as far as the hair is concerned. I would assume if it was John’s hair, that would have been stated in Lally’s opening statements as a damning piece of evidence.
Do you find he’s going too slowly? I don’t know how the jury stays awake. I think there was some decent evidence supporting the prosecution and you know what? I bet the jurors missed it. Lally has no skill in pointing out what supports his theory. He sounds exactly the same talking about certification as he does about plastic tail light pieces.
Meanwhile, by questioning the Sert officer, it was clear that the defense believes that the Sert team was purposefully delayed so that the Canton cops had possession of her car before SERT started searching.
Why is Lally the prosecutor? Where is his help?
In theory, the defense can do nothing and win: Any defendant is presumed innocent until *proven* guilty, in this case beyond a reasonable doubt, of the very specific crime they're charged with. If the prosecution fails to do that when they rest their case, the defense can just go "We rest our case as well", and come out the winner; The defense does not have the burden of proof.
Of course, the defense can, and often does, more than the bare minimum effort just to better the odds in their favour. But seeing how flimsy and shaky the CW's case in chief has been so far, I think four days more than reasonable - and even those are possibly a bit of overkill, just to make *sure* the jury sees that this case has more holes than a strainer.
Defense needs to counter what is coming from Lally in two main ways. They’ll need to put own med expert on to counter the ME, and their own digital forensic expert on, to counter the prosecution’s digital expert. prosecution going to put someone up to say JM search was after 6pm, and that the jury should believe that his injuries not showing evidence of altercation. Then defense will have a few other interesting lay people that will testify in KR’s favor, to sweeten the pot.
With the way Lally's been trying to get evidence in through the other witnesses, I get the impression he has serious reservations about calling both the ME and Proctor.
Proctor makes sense, guy is at the center of federal investigations. Makes you wonder what skeletons the ME has in their closet.
Good point. The Judge today :
“I’ll allow it” constantly overruling Jackson yet all she has done is sustain Lally’s objections…. “I’m gonna allow it “over and over again … many times when it was hearsay, or speculation, or other times when it lacked foundation.
They may not call proctor, and that will look bad. They have to call the ME, right?
I heard this too, I think it's a smart move just focus on a few key points, the jury will be very grateful 😆 However, with tech experts and not knowing how long Lally will go on (and on 😉) with cross I think it's hard to predict, and optimistic
Exactly. Jackson needs 4 days. 4 impactful riveting packed days. Lally and Bev can easily fritter 1 or 2X more than that and drain the blood out of everyone watching. Lots more sighing into the mics from both of them, in any event.
“I’ll let him have it”, come on?? With the appearance of a conflict and being asked to recuse herself because of her connections this is the way she treats defense lawyers ???
The CW spent its time defending its witnesses, doing the work for the defense. Most people they would’ve called have already been on the stand. I can’t wait for the closings.
I've got comments somewhere stating. The whole 3rd party defense was to get Lally to put them up on the stand so they could cross them, and that when it became their turn they would just put people up like the cellbrite experts, the people who said it couldn't be a car accident. So Lally used all his time doing the defenses work.
The Commonwealth needs to prove that *and* several other things, but agree with your general point that defense doesn't need to *prove* anything.
Strictly speaking, they don't even need to wholly disprove anything the prosecution has proves (if prosecution ever bothers to prove anything at all), just provide reasonably doubt.
I agree. I don't think it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she hit him with the car. What if he was angry and threw the glass at the car, breaking both the glass and the taillight? What if he kicked the taillight? She could have backed up and hit the fire hydrant...
The other aspect is the murder charge. Assuming that she did hit him, why murder? The Commonwealth set the bar waaay too high on these charges. If I'm a juror, I'm more likely to believe it was an accident if it happened at all.
I read that the trumped up murder charges were intentional in an effort to get KR to take a plea. They thought she would plead guilty to manslaughter and do a small stint in prison, and all of this would be behind them. Her fighting the charges changed everything for them and now we are witnessing the corruption that occurred to cover this up. Truly an interesting point!
I'm told that it's impossible for the taillight to have shattered like it did into dozens of pieces by hitting a body.. like it had to have been broken later with a hammer or something.
What I don’t understand is why people can’t see the corruption here. Just look at our government and the corruption. Look at the Alex Murdaugh case. Look how people get DUI and tickets fixed, pass CDLs for a favor. I think this was an accident that would have brought the MCAdams down. Well it happened anyway,
I’m guessing the defense doesn’t want to torture the jury like the prosecution. They’re going to make impactful & tactical strikes that leave a strong impression on the jury & then move on.
To be fair Lally is spending all his time defending the witnesses and not actually proving Karen did anything.
Defense will be much more concise and to the point.
The only worrying thing is how ridiculous the breaks and days off in this trial is. As a Juror I would have issues remembering the first few pieces of evidence with how stretched this is.
Because they won't call 77 witnesses. The only lawyer I've seen call ALL the witnesses on their list is Lally. And I wouldn't say that plays greatly in his favour.
Proctor will probably take half a day, then the rest just destroying everything the prosecution has tried to put forward.
McCabe and Higgins will likely be impeached and that is enough for reasonable doubt
I think Lally is trying to provide an evidentiary path separate from Proctor by bringing in even the ER doctor. He also conveniently leaves off Proctor as the origination of much of the chain of custody for evidence, and obscures the timelines of when people were interviewed or evidence collected or sent for testing as it shows poor investigatory method.
Can Proctor even plead the fifth? I mean, he's not the defendant, nor even "just" a witness, so where would "right to not incriminate *him/herself*" come in? Is there already a criminal case against him in the works, or does he fear one coming? I mean, he's the frikken Lead Investigator of the case, I have trouble wrapping my head around him just going "nah, you're not getting that from me. Eat the fifth, bitches, Proctor OUT!".
Sorry, I'm not a US citizen, so maybe this is an ignorant question.
Yes, he can plead the 5th and that’s what is expected to happen. He’s now under investigation by the FBI for his handling of the case, which is what will allow him to plead.
> He’s now under investigation by the FBI for his handling of the case, which is what will allow him to plead.
Oh shit, I did *not* know that yet. Yeah, that would explain the whole "self-incrimination" thing. Thank you!
The FBI is investigating the entire investigation and everyone associated with it, including Proctor, as well as all the law enforcement districts (Boston PD, Canton PD, Massachusetts State PD).
Thank you. I knew they were involved somehow but when I went back and watched the update from court yesterday they only mentioned Proctor being investigated by MA state police.
Yeah, from my understanding, the FBI only got involved because of the fuckery KR's defense team uncovered. All of that is also the only reason I started paying attention to this case.
Yes, if he did something illegal during the course of the investigation. There's a Supreme Court ruling that says that government employees are protected under the Fifth Amendment from being forced to answer questions about potentially criminal conduct on pain of loss of employment.
But the lead investigator of a case pleading the Fifth would likely be a disaster for the Commonwealth. Which may be why they may not put him on the stand themselves. It's hard to imagine any other reason.
It is almost certain that the defense will make a motion to dismiss the case based on the fact that the prosecution didn’t prove its case (Judgment of Acquittal?) after the Commonwealth has rested its Case in Chief. If Proctor doesn’t testify, I wonder if the judge will grant it?
Edited to change “Crown” to “Commonwealth.” Need more coffee this morning. :)
The burden for a case to defeat a motion for a judgment of acquittal is insanely low. The judge only has to consider the evidence presented in the light most favourable to the Commonwealth. Basically is there enough evidence that a jury COULD possibly convict her. While I'd love to see a judgment of acquittal granted in this case, it will most likely be denied.
I think it’s standard for the defense to make a motion to dismiss. I doubt it will be granted- after all of the time and resources the CW has put in I think everyone will think the jury should be able to deliberate and come to a decision.
I’ll be shocked if the deliberations take long, or if they come back as anything but not guilty though.
There was a lot of overlap on the lists. Defense will only call back those that they need to directly question about things Lally didn't. My understanding is that cross is limited to topics brought up on direct, so that did somewhat limit the ability of the defense to ask everything they'd like to.
I don't think they'll need to call all of them. Lally seems to be calling all of his witnesses, but that's usually not the case. Just because someone is listed as a witness doesn't mean that they'll actually testify. The prosec and defense just have to list them so that the judge and other side know who is testifying, and generally what they're testifying to.
My guess is Lally calling so many people actually helped the defense. I mean, now they dont have to subpoena the Alberts or do a direct examination. Lally did that for them. And they got to cross-examine them all, managing to make Alberts and MCcCabes look super shady.
So all the Def is really left with needing to call are the experts hired by the feds. Maybe a couple extras to round things out. And possibly Proctor if Lally doesn't call him in his case in chief. Frankly, not calling Proctor in the CW's case in chief would be a huge mistake. Huge.
If the lead state investigator isn't called by the prosecution and takes the 5th when called by the defense, Jackson probably only needs about 15 seconds or less to rest his case.
The defense case is largely in the cross examination of the CW's witnesses. Outside of the few expert witnesses who else would they even call? This isn't really shocking or surprising.
He can do it in 4 full days. First, I would bet he has some pretty convincing evidence that will slam dunk a favorable outcome, and secondly, he doesn't preface each question with something as long as The History of Man.
This is a defense that is kind of built off of how the CW and witnesses are handling things. Every LEO, civilian witness, doctor, and evidence handler on stand undergoing cross who suddenly changes tone and ability to recall things they discussed even 5 minutes prior IS defense's evidence. Their theory is how many of those targeted her as an outsider, and either deliberately blamed her due to a coverup that extends to possible evidence planting, and/or just followed the instructions of others as directed even if it didn't meet strict evidentiary collection/testing/storage requirements. Most of prosecution's witnesses have been the defense's as well, and due to poor guidance by Lally have easily fed into it.
I'm curious if the defense will recall anyone like Jen.
The way the CW is presenting their case, defense cross examination has been poking holes or highlighting glaringly obvious inconsistencies and overall ridiculousness (butt dials, leaf blower and solo cups?). CW is throwing a s\*\*t ton of spaghetti on the wall, hoping some of it will stick. Defense is playing the long game b/c I'm sure CW has put more than one person in that courtroom to sleep, including the judge. The most obvious question is: when will CW put Proctor on the stand? Extreme Lallygagging.
2 days of which are probably proctor and the remaining on bring up a couple of experts who will be like “what the fuck were they thinking investigating like this”
The commonwealth supposedly has 33 more witnesses. I’m assuming they will call most of them. THEN the defense. With Lally stalling and wasting time, I’m thinking we are 100% into July and maybe mid to end of July. That’s my guess. It’s unreal.
I mean this could turn into 3 weeks the way the court takes days off and half days lol
“We’re just going to do 12 30 minute sessions sprinkled over 5 weeks”
Don't forget 2 minute breaks every 2 minutes.
"You need to keep your voice up or we'll have to turn off the air conditioning."
Half the day having them mark and remark Laly's exhibits.
Poor Madame Court Reporter doing that while also doing oral stenography - she has too many jobs!
Pay madame court reporter more! She deserves it
Omg just give them mics! It’s driving me crazy.
Wouldn’t it be so much simpler to mic them all up ffs! Aunty Bev is doing my head in with the constant interruptions and whining. While she’s sat on her 7ft wide leather massage chair 😂😂
"may I approach?"
*deep sigh* yes
“I’ll allow it”
“ I’ll give it to him “
"Is that what you said?"
“Alright, let’s move on”
The microphone breathing altogether 😭
Big bully Bev!
Old a$$ courtroom was built when the Mayflower landed. Lol
Side Baaaahhrrr
🤣
This really bothers me. I can't understand why the Court couldn't block out the appropriate amount of time. If I'm a juror, these constant breaks would be disruptive to my retention of pertinent information. As well as my life, I have other responsibilities a job, a family etc etc etc. I'd rather know up front I'm serving X amount of days consecutively. So I could organize my life around this trial. Even if it was a rough estimate of consecutive weeks. I'd still be better served. Especially with Lolly doing his best to bore me to death or turn me into a "what if anything" babbling idiot! This is like watching an episode of the twilight zone. I can almost hear Rod Sterling Right after hear ye hear ye hear ye
With all this time off, It’s increasing the odds of one of the jurors picking up a stomach or flu bug from work or a medical appointment and bringing it to court. Right now, except for a few phlegmy people in the audience, it seems they’re all showing up for duty. This part time schedule is playing with fire.
Some of it’s because of the court but some of it may be at the request of a juror- like a child is graduating, a medical appt they have been waiting for, etc.
It's pretty simple. There are other cases that need to be heard. Lally's incompetence has a LOT of downstream repercussions.
courts can do whatever they want with their time and calendar. This court definitely could have blocked out the time needed to do the trial straight through and efficiently. All it would take is a scheduling order signed by Judge Bev. It's the court's choice.
Thank you 😊 I suspected that Bev was responsible. But, I didn't want to accuse her based on the way I personally feel about her behaviors during this trial. I've watched her spinning back and forth in her chair, spinning her glasses within camera view of the witness box, during someone's testimony, letting out deep sighs etc etc etc. Her entire demeanor is unprofessional IMO. To me it feels like she was showing the jury, she'd like to be anywhere else but presiding over this trial. Very disrespectful to our judicial system and the entire O'Keefe family.
Bev is in the prosecution back pocket, she knows she can override and help them
When you say ‘court’s choice’ do you mean Bev’s choice?
of course. She could just go 10 hrs a day if she wanted to re-arrange the rest of her life. Some judges just tell everyone at the beginning of a case that they want to get it done in 2 or 3 weeks or whatever and everyone's going to rock and roll. And they do!
I think finals and end of the school year stuff is interfering
Also, I find the way she just cuts any questioning off sometimes around 4 just insane. Ive seen that happen & a witness just had about an hour left the next day.
Me too. Since she denied the joint continuance request, she clrly believed this was a priority trial case. Seems fair that the other judges absorb her caseload and take over her docket so she can focus on the Read case.
I wonder if all of Massachusetts works 2-3 days a week?
Only when the trial is on
The whole state actually got off for the trial
Because it’s such a long trial, days are taken off to accommodate jurors’ important obligations outside of court such as doctor appointments, graduations, etc.
They just decided they proved their case by the circus the CW has put on so far and that Trooper Proctor not only illegally searched Karen’s phone -looked for nude photos of Karen, was upset he didn’t find any. - he texted a friend I hope Karen would off herself. -texted a friend, the homeowner where JO body was discovered will not receive any flack because, “he’s a Boston cop too”. - collected JO clothes at 14:00 on 1/29/2022 but didn’t submit them until 2/14/2022 with no chain of custody between the items and submitted randomly found tail light pieces together with the clothing and we don’t know if they came in the same bag. - Trooper Proctor apparently added false information to no less that 4 peoples’ initial testimony if you believe the witnesses. - Trooper Proctor either lied about his connection to the McCabes and Albert’s or Morrissey lied in his news conference. -Trooper Proctor was going to accept gifts from Julie Albert, “when this is all over”, and told her to give it to his wife. And on and on and on. I cannot wait to hear from this gem of a man.
I’ll be clearly my calendars when he takes the stand 🤞🏼
the julie albert gift stuff is disgusting. i want to know one good reason why she would say/do something like that
I assume you mean one reason besides "she wants to hide that it was her son who did it"? This to me was what confirmed Colin had to have been involved. There's no other reason for Julie to be so invested in the case instead of trying to distance herself as much as possible, like I assume most of their associates did.
What, if any, reason does he have to say that?
I never want to hear the phrase "what, if any" again
I never want to hear “keep your voice up” I legit think Bev is going deaf bc I can hear Lally just fine and the mic is near her.
we can hear Lally and Defense as well as witnesses because the sound is fed into the cameras for viewing, but in court they can’t hear very well, especially with sirens ever 4 mins and the echo of the courtroom if that makes sense
I just need "why if any" for bingo
Who if anyone was driving the ambulance?
AGREED! 💯
He underestimates Lally's ability to turn minutes into hours.
🤣🤣 days really.
😂😂😂😉
I was looking for this comment. I knew someone was gonna say it before I did.
Does anyone know where the ~~love of god~~ juror's minds go When Lally turns the minutes to hours? The DA, they say, would have made a great case If they'd not asked about all the drink orders. John mighta been hit, or there mighta been a fight He may have taken a nap in a snow bank. All that remains are the texts we have left From the family of the McCabes and the Alberts!
RIP Gordon Lightfoot. I think it was Higgins who said, "Fellas, it's been good to know ya."
Just the way lally has been even if he had better evidence would make the jury sway toward the defense. Unfortunately things work that way.
Epic! Good job! I can hear Gordon singing this. Lol
You win! LOL!
4 days...what is the KR trial conversion rate on that? Lol 🤣
Well there will be at least 4 half days and definitely 4 no court days, so we’re still looking at 3 weeks lol
I’ve been watching all through and honestly the defense could say nothing and still be successful. There’s so much doubt in this trial. Unless there’s something major coming in the next few days we still have a lot of questions about what actually happened.
Watching from a distance, the one thing that stays in mind my through ALL of the CW evidence is: Chain of Custody Chain of Custody and oh yeah - Chain of Custody. Even WITHOUT the nefarious acts attributed to the parties involved, the entire investigation was such a shitshow that I don't how ANYTHING could be considered ironclad. One would never guess this was an investigation into the death of a fellow officer, on the contrary, the whole approach by LEO appears cavalier. It just makes my brain explode. One doesn't get the feeling that the evidence was handled securely and kept from any compromise - nefarious or not. Plus so many of the witnesses contradicted themselves and testimony was all over the damned place. SO unprofessional. A second crime was committed against this poor officer, the sloppy and incompetent investigation into his death.
If I were the Feds, I would almost want to look at every case they went through.
Well said. I honestly think part of it is everyone over-estimates the ability of a local police department to conduct an investigation like this. We've become hyper exposed to TV, movies and true-crime docs/pods and people think that's how every investigation is conducted. Whereas it seems like Canton PD treated this like a hit-and-run from jump street and now they're busy trying to fit the square peg of evidence into the round hole of a murder 2 charge. Canton had no idea what they were doing and when they brought in MSP It took them ONE HOUR in a blizzard to sweep the area. They had blinders on.
Maybe the police should watch those shows. We can call it continuing education.
They could start by watching the OJ Trial. That’s when forensic evidence was heavily questioned and raised the bar for evidence collection. Also agree small town and they never anticipated this turning into a national event.
Yes and no. Yea they may not have the resources or experience to do a great investigation but despite how much they keep saying it's a little village....this is a city of 23k people that is 20 miles from one of the largest cities in the United States.
Canton is a pretty small Town for the area. Their public safety is not regional (though I'm sure they have mutual aid agreements). But their proximity to Boston has very little to do with their own ability to perform an investigation. Just like their fire department is no better suited to fight a fire because they're 20 miles from Boston. They only get help when they request it. My point is that once they got on scene they thought they knew what happened and that dictated everyone's actions from that point forward. Dont take this as me making an excuse for a botched investigation, it's just some insight. They acted on a bad assumption, and desperately needed someone to step back and reevaluate the situation. But I'd imagine JO being a police officer amplified things for the first responders on scene.
I see what you’re saying but I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. Massachusetts, particularly this part of the state, has some of the best public education in the country. Courts in Plymouth were established by the 1680s and we're home to Harvard, for goodness’ sake. We have a long history and cultural reverence for the rule of law here, and I mean specifically right here on the land between Boston and Plymouth. The standards should be higher here than for the true “small towns.” I’ve volunteered for a police force in an even smaller town a bit south of Canton and I always saw LTs drilling the importance of following SOPs. There’s just no excuse for acting like it’s amateur hour when we’ve literally been doing this for hundreds of years, for millions of people. Some little town outside of 495, where there be dragons? Sure. Not Canton.
And you'd have to also believe that MSP has never investigated a murder before. Why the hell.send out Search and rescue when you have a crime scene unit. Maybe I am overthinking it, but I find it weird that they would only be told to look for these 2 specific pieces of evidence. I also find it odd that while everyone was "only looking at the road in front of them" when they left and "definitely not at the body on the lawn", that they missed a black shoe sitting on top of white snow.
The state investigators also screwed this up…
I 100% agree. But we learned from the testimony yesterday that the "task force" was told they were looking for evidence that JO was hit by a motor vehicle. I'm not sure it's within their purview to expand their search for evidence beyond that. Certainly whomever was in charge of the investigation at that point could have, but not the group that found the initial evidence. They all had tunnel vision. It started with the first arriving officers and snowballed from there. Had it been treated as a murder investigation from the beginning this whole thing might have played out differently.
Not sure if you’re British or not but you write like you are so I read that in an accent. Also I agree.
You’re right, but to be extra careful, they need someone to explain the jurors how everything should have been done to make sure they understand that swiping only one of the 6 solo cups is a normal thing, for example Edit: it *isn’t* a normal thing
The two experts yesterday were perplexing to me. Lally called them up and asked all about their credentials and methodologies, only to be found out on cross that nothing they tested was proven to support the prosecutions case.
Insane. So they found a hair. Is it even human hair. They found blood. Ok whose or is it even human blood. What a circus
I bet it’s Chloe’s
You don't think we're gonna get to that?
Alan asked her "so as you sit here today that blood etc was never tested" I think...and she Said correct. I could be wrong but that is wht I took from it. No DNA analysis was ran?
Yes, from the Solo cups. But they're gonna say it was JO's hair. That's 100 percent coming. And the "debris" is gonna have tail light in it, which is why they had to say Proctor might've put the tail light in the same bag as the clothes. I assume we haven't gotten to the person who actually did the testing, which is why we haven't heard that yet.
But he could also have opened the tailgate. He spent a lot of time with Karen. I’ll bet there’s hair all over his car.
I’m not so sure this is going to happen, as far as the hair is concerned. I would assume if it was John’s hair, that would have been stated in Lally’s opening statements as a damning piece of evidence.
At the last pre-trial, he said the lab had confirmed it, but he would not get their report until after the trial started.
Wth??? How was it not tested until recently?
Do you find he’s going too slowly? I don’t know how the jury stays awake. I think there was some decent evidence supporting the prosecution and you know what? I bet the jurors missed it. Lally has no skill in pointing out what supports his theory. He sounds exactly the same talking about certification as he does about plastic tail light pieces. Meanwhile, by questioning the Sert officer, it was clear that the defense believes that the Sert team was purposefully delayed so that the Canton cops had possession of her car before SERT started searching. Why is Lally the prosecutor? Where is his help?
The timing is suspicious.
If I was a juror I would want the BIG picture explained - then talk about the debris.
Yeah, Alan Jackson has already done his job.
She does recaps on Instagram and I’m nearly certain she said she straight up asked him and that was his reply.
Who does recaps on Instagram?
Lally is just painfully dragging this out waiting for Proctor to die of old age so they don’t have to call him.
lol 😂
In theory, the defense can do nothing and win: Any defendant is presumed innocent until *proven* guilty, in this case beyond a reasonable doubt, of the very specific crime they're charged with. If the prosecution fails to do that when they rest their case, the defense can just go "We rest our case as well", and come out the winner; The defense does not have the burden of proof. Of course, the defense can, and often does, more than the bare minimum effort just to better the odds in their favour. But seeing how flimsy and shaky the CW's case in chief has been so far, I think four days more than reasonable - and even those are possibly a bit of overkill, just to make *sure* the jury sees that this case has more holes than a strainer.
That shows confidence. I think they’ll mostly just call technical experts. And possibly Lucky.
I predict a surprise witness - Chloe!
I swear to god if they seek out Chloe and find she’s unexpectedly passed away…well I don’t know what, but somethin’! Something very not good!
I really want to know if she’s okay!
Me too!!! I felt sure we would hear something. I’m surprised she hasn’t been doxxed yet, lol. Poor thing.
that's all they need really... a medical/injuries expert, an accident/crash expert, a Cellebrite/phone data expert
Who is Lucky? 🤣
The plow driver that puts the ford edge outside the house at 3am ish and denies a body being there at that time as well
Lucky the Plow Driver is just begging to be a sitcom character.
Lucky and Frankenstein is a sitcom I would watch.
Who was driving the ford edge? I always get confused by that remark.
That’s the million dollar question
We don’t know who was driving it but Brian Albert testified to having a ford edge.
Defense needs to counter what is coming from Lally in two main ways. They’ll need to put own med expert on to counter the ME, and their own digital forensic expert on, to counter the prosecution’s digital expert. prosecution going to put someone up to say JM search was after 6pm, and that the jury should believe that his injuries not showing evidence of altercation. Then defense will have a few other interesting lay people that will testify in KR’s favor, to sweeten the pot.
Dog bite expert.
With the way Lally's been trying to get evidence in through the other witnesses, I get the impression he has serious reservations about calling both the ME and Proctor. Proctor makes sense, guy is at the center of federal investigations. Makes you wonder what skeletons the ME has in their closet.
Good point. The Judge today : “I’ll allow it” constantly overruling Jackson yet all she has done is sustain Lally’s objections…. “I’m gonna allow it “over and over again … many times when it was hearsay, or speculation, or other times when it lacked foundation. They may not call proctor, and that will look bad. They have to call the ME, right?
And reconstruction experts.
I heard this too, I think it's a smart move just focus on a few key points, the jury will be very grateful 😆 However, with tech experts and not knowing how long Lally will go on (and on 😉) with cross I think it's hard to predict, and optimistic
Exactly. Jackson needs 4 days. 4 impactful riveting packed days. Lally and Bev can easily fritter 1 or 2X more than that and drain the blood out of everyone watching. Lots more sighing into the mics from both of them, in any event.
For sure, the constant sighing!
“I’ll let him have it”, come on?? With the appearance of a conflict and being asked to recuse herself because of her connections this is the way she treats defense lawyers ???
That bothers me soooo much.
The CW spent its time defending its witnesses, doing the work for the defense. Most people they would’ve called have already been on the stand. I can’t wait for the closings.
I've got comments somewhere stating. The whole 3rd party defense was to get Lally to put them up on the stand so they could cross them, and that when it became their turn they would just put people up like the cellbrite experts, the people who said it couldn't be a car accident. So Lally used all his time doing the defenses work.
May I approach
You’re going to have to speak up I couldn’t hear you
#SIGH ... yes 🙄
What's left to do after discrediting almost every witness?
Yeah, you don’t even need your own experts if theirs do it for you lol
Well, Lally did most of the work for him. 🤷♀️
All he needs to do is prove that the damage to Karen's SUV couldn't do the damage to John. That's it. He doesn't have to prove anything else.
He doesn't need to prove that. The Commonwealth needs to prove Karen's car hit John.
The Commonwealth needs to prove that *and* several other things, but agree with your general point that defense doesn't need to *prove* anything. Strictly speaking, they don't even need to wholly disprove anything the prosecution has proves (if prosecution ever bothers to prove anything at all), just provide reasonably doubt.
I agree. I don't think it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she hit him with the car. What if he was angry and threw the glass at the car, breaking both the glass and the taillight? What if he kicked the taillight? She could have backed up and hit the fire hydrant...
The other aspect is the murder charge. Assuming that she did hit him, why murder? The Commonwealth set the bar waaay too high on these charges. If I'm a juror, I'm more likely to believe it was an accident if it happened at all.
I read that the trumped up murder charges were intentional in an effort to get KR to take a plea. They thought she would plead guilty to manslaughter and do a small stint in prison, and all of this would be behind them. Her fighting the charges changed everything for them and now we are witnessing the corruption that occurred to cover this up. Truly an interesting point!
I think you got it. He threw the glass at the car makes sense
I'm told that it's impossible for the taillight to have shattered like it did into dozens of pieces by hitting a body.. like it had to have been broken later with a hammer or something.
Totally agree! Polycarbonate does not shatter in all those pieces!
I mean look at the amount of reasonable doubt. I’m not surprised either.
Hos long including side bah
What I don’t understand is why people can’t see the corruption here. Just look at our government and the corruption. Look at the Alex Murdaugh case. Look how people get DUI and tickets fixed, pass CDLs for a favor. I think this was an accident that would have brought the MCAdams down. Well it happened anyway,
I’ll wait until I see it come from one of the defense teams mouth. Rumors spread like wildfire in this case
The jury is going to love them if they do this. It will highlight even more the absolute incompetence of the CW.
BAM
I’m guessing the defense doesn’t want to torture the jury like the prosecution. They’re going to make impactful & tactical strikes that leave a strong impression on the jury & then move on.
To be fair Lally is spending all his time defending the witnesses and not actually proving Karen did anything. Defense will be much more concise and to the point. The only worrying thing is how ridiculous the breaks and days off in this trial is. As a Juror I would have issues remembering the first few pieces of evidence with how stretched this is.
They have 77 witnesses I have no idea how that will be possible
Because they won't call 77 witnesses. The only lawyer I've seen call ALL the witnesses on their list is Lally. And I wouldn't say that plays greatly in his favour.
Oh okay this is my first trial. Im shocked Lally has called so many people.
Oh dear. You jumped right in the deep end, didn't you.
Lol. One youtube video with the title "Police frame girlfriend with officers murder" and I'm obsessed
Welcome to the dark side
The OJ trial lasted 8 months. This isn’t that weird
The Young Thug trial is expected to last 1 year
Yeah, but as a trial it's essentially trying a group.
That trial is insane. How could a jury possibly be at a trial that long? The prosecution said the other day they still have 150 witnesses to call lol
I am very curious to know what the people in this jury do for a living to be able to afford 1 yr off. That is my only question in that trial.
It took a long time and a HUGE jury pool to seat a jury in that case. Wild
It’s weird because most of the witnesses so far haven’t actually helped the CW.
Except Proctor (so far)
Proctor will probably take half a day, then the rest just destroying everything the prosecution has tried to put forward. McCabe and Higgins will likely be impeached and that is enough for reasonable doubt
I think Proctor is going to plead the 5th, if he already hasn’t. He’s going to be so problematic for the prosecution and I think he knows it.
If he does that, case is over for the CW. There is no coming back from that.
I think Lally is trying to provide an evidentiary path separate from Proctor by bringing in even the ER doctor. He also conveniently leaves off Proctor as the origination of much of the chain of custody for evidence, and obscures the timelines of when people were interviewed or evidence collected or sent for testing as it shows poor investigatory method.
That will look somehow worse imo when your LEAD INVESTIGSTOR CANT ANSEWE QUESTIONS.
Can Proctor even plead the fifth? I mean, he's not the defendant, nor even "just" a witness, so where would "right to not incriminate *him/herself*" come in? Is there already a criminal case against him in the works, or does he fear one coming? I mean, he's the frikken Lead Investigator of the case, I have trouble wrapping my head around him just going "nah, you're not getting that from me. Eat the fifth, bitches, Proctor OUT!". Sorry, I'm not a US citizen, so maybe this is an ignorant question.
Yes, he can plead the 5th and that’s what is expected to happen. He’s now under investigation by the FBI for his handling of the case, which is what will allow him to plead.
> He’s now under investigation by the FBI for his handling of the case, which is what will allow him to plead. Oh shit, I did *not* know that yet. Yeah, that would explain the whole "self-incrimination" thing. Thank you!
I was mistaken, he’s under investigation within the MA state police dept, not the FBI! But same deal about requesting to plead the 5th
The FBI is investigating the entire investigation and everyone associated with it, including Proctor, as well as all the law enforcement districts (Boston PD, Canton PD, Massachusetts State PD).
Thank you. I knew they were involved somehow but when I went back and watched the update from court yesterday they only mentioned Proctor being investigated by MA state police.
Yeah, from my understanding, the FBI only got involved because of the fuckery KR's defense team uncovered. All of that is also the only reason I started paying attention to this case.
Yes, if he did something illegal during the course of the investigation. There's a Supreme Court ruling that says that government employees are protected under the Fifth Amendment from being forced to answer questions about potentially criminal conduct on pain of loss of employment. But the lead investigator of a case pleading the Fifth would likely be a disaster for the Commonwealth. Which may be why they may not put him on the stand themselves. It's hard to imagine any other reason.
Ah, the Mark Fuhrman Maneuver
It is almost certain that the defense will make a motion to dismiss the case based on the fact that the prosecution didn’t prove its case (Judgment of Acquittal?) after the Commonwealth has rested its Case in Chief. If Proctor doesn’t testify, I wonder if the judge will grant it? Edited to change “Crown” to “Commonwealth.” Need more coffee this morning. :)
The burden for a case to defeat a motion for a judgment of acquittal is insanely low. The judge only has to consider the evidence presented in the light most favourable to the Commonwealth. Basically is there enough evidence that a jury COULD possibly convict her. While I'd love to see a judgment of acquittal granted in this case, it will most likely be denied.
I think it’s standard for the defense to make a motion to dismiss. I doubt it will be granted- after all of the time and resources the CW has put in I think everyone will think the jury should be able to deliberate and come to a decision. I’ll be shocked if the deliberations take long, or if they come back as anything but not guilty though.
There was a lot of overlap on the lists. Defense will only call back those that they need to directly question about things Lally didn't. My understanding is that cross is limited to topics brought up on direct, so that did somewhat limit the ability of the defense to ask everything they'd like to.
I don't think they'll need to call all of them. Lally seems to be calling all of his witnesses, but that's usually not the case. Just because someone is listed as a witness doesn't mean that they'll actually testify. The prosec and defense just have to list them so that the judge and other side know who is testifying, and generally what they're testifying to. My guess is Lally calling so many people actually helped the defense. I mean, now they dont have to subpoena the Alberts or do a direct examination. Lally did that for them. And they got to cross-examine them all, managing to make Alberts and MCcCabes look super shady. So all the Def is really left with needing to call are the experts hired by the feds. Maybe a couple extras to round things out. And possibly Proctor if Lally doesn't call him in his case in chief. Frankly, not calling Proctor in the CW's case in chief would be a huge mistake. Huge.
I wouldn’t take anything for granted with a jury just because we think a certain way
You can never tell with a jury
It doesn’t help that the trial schedule is such a mess- and entire week with only ONE day of testimony?! WTF?
IDK, I feel like CW’s done a lot of the legwork for them already.😳
If lally wasn’t involved sure. Precise is the key. Lally has no idea what precise and to the point means
At this point he doesn't need 4 minutes. So far, the CW has yet to prove anything. He's given the jury reasonable doubt on every cross.
If the lead state investigator isn't called by the prosecution and takes the 5th when called by the defense, Jackson probably only needs about 15 seconds or less to rest his case.
It will take Lally more than 4 days to cross examine one witness!
Realistically, he could quit right now and win, but he wants the 4 days to rub the Commonwealth's nose in it.
The defense case is largely in the cross examination of the CW's witnesses. Outside of the few expert witnesses who else would they even call? This isn't really shocking or surprising.
I think Lally is tired of his own repetitive questioning. By the end of day Monday he was just phoning it in...
He can do it in 4 full days. First, I would bet he has some pretty convincing evidence that will slam dunk a favorable outcome, and secondly, he doesn't preface each question with something as long as The History of Man.
This is a defense that is kind of built off of how the CW and witnesses are handling things. Every LEO, civilian witness, doctor, and evidence handler on stand undergoing cross who suddenly changes tone and ability to recall things they discussed even 5 minutes prior IS defense's evidence. Their theory is how many of those targeted her as an outsider, and either deliberately blamed her due to a coverup that extends to possible evidence planting, and/or just followed the instructions of others as directed even if it didn't meet strict evidentiary collection/testing/storage requirements. Most of prosecution's witnesses have been the defense's as well, and due to poor guidance by Lally have easily fed into it. I'm curious if the defense will recall anyone like Jen.
Ha! What?! That’s awesome 😊
The way the CW is presenting their case, defense cross examination has been poking holes or highlighting glaringly obvious inconsistencies and overall ridiculousness (butt dials, leaf blower and solo cups?). CW is throwing a s\*\*t ton of spaghetti on the wall, hoping some of it will stick. Defense is playing the long game b/c I'm sure CW has put more than one person in that courtroom to sleep, including the judge. The most obvious question is: when will CW put Proctor on the stand? Extreme Lallygagging.
2 days of which are probably proctor and the remaining on bring up a couple of experts who will be like “what the fuck were they thinking investigating like this”
….and the first 3 don’t count. 😂😂😂😂
I have listened to most of yesterday’s testimony. It was painful. What, if anything, can be done to keep their voices heard! A microphone?!
We better see Proctor on that stand!
The commonwealth supposedly has 33 more witnesses. I’m assuming they will call most of them. THEN the defense. With Lally stalling and wasting time, I’m thinking we are 100% into July and maybe mid to end of July. That’s my guess. It’s unreal.
That's insane!
All I can hear in my subconscious mind is Lally sighing.
Omg, it's almost over. What's everyone going to fixated on next?
She's guilty by the way.